Card Counter Catchers Speak!

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DGGRANT

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Dec 25, 2000, 4:06:55 PM12/25/00
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Since the latest con from the con men is that casino surveillance
conditions we say exist are not to be found. And that
casinos just love to lose money to card counters, (sure,
right Harvey, alises et al) I thought it appropriate to repost the
SWORN
TESTIMONY of the former card counter catcher from the Mirage
Casino in Las Vegas.

After you read what the card counter catchers are **really**
saying under oath to the courts, then you will begin to
appreciate how much the con men are deceiving the suckers
when they fraudulently represent that they can win with card counting
systems.

The following quotations were quotations taken from Michael
Riordan's (AKA MAX RUBIN) depositions,
sworn and deposed by Mr. Riordan on 08/30/1994 at the
Tropicana Hotel at approximately 1400
hours. This document is a matter of public record was
secured from the TropWorld law firms in
Alantic City. You may verifiy the autenticity of these
quotations by contacting our lawyer, Mr.
Howard A. Altschuler, Esq., at Lawc...@worldnet.att.net
for positive verification that the following
quotations have been taken directly from Mr. Riordan's
aforesaid sworn testimony.

Mr. Riordan's sworn depostions were held when Arnold
Snyder, Stanford Wong, Anthony Curtis, Peter Griffin and Max
Rubin joined with card counter catchers and casinos and
casino spokespersons to provide testimony against card
counters. (Well-paid testimony I should add). Again, if
you have ANY doubts about ANY contents of this post, contact our
lawyer
and hear the truth directly from an officer of the court.

I will start the sworn depostion much earlier than the key
responses, and continue well after so the con men cannot
claim I am posting anything out of context.

Start Michael Riordan (Max Rubin's) deposition excerpts:

Lawyer daily to Michael Riordan (AKA Max Rubin) page 8,
line 9:

Q: Lawyer Daily to Michael Riordan (Max Rubin):
How long did you work as a card counter
catcher?

A: Rubin Answers: ôA year, year and a half.ö

Q: Lawyer Daily: ôCould you tell me what your duties as a
card counter catcher were?ö

A: Rubin Answers: "Several. One I was--I had the pit, the
double deck pit on grave yard where
essentially the high limit play was on the Mirage on that
particular shift and I was responsible for
our looking at the high limit play, observe the betting
patterns, those sort of things. Observing
just the act the people put on, trying to identify people
that were together and recognizing some
sort of team play."

(Max Rubin continues to answer the question without
interruption:) "And then I would actually go into the back, take
breaks, and then use the
surveillance cameras because the surveillance people there weren't
very good at what they
were doing. Typically that's the
way a lot of casinos are. And I would go back there and
evaluate the play. And also they would tape it. I would review the
tapes and actually
analyze the percentage edge the people would have on any given
situation and do a compilation of
number of hands and I would actually extrapolate from that what their
expectation was,
say, on 100 hands, and looked like those people might be doing
something."

(Rubin continues to answer the question without
interruption): Rubin: "If they were, if the people
continued to pay on day shift or swing shift, then they
would have somebody also evaluate
them, sometimes an outside counter. Typically, if one
person identifies them as a card counter
they have to have somebody else verify it, a second
verification - and sometimes there--."

Q: Daily to Rubin: Page 9, line 18: ôWho would be an outside
counter?

A: Rubin to Daily: Page 9, line 19: "Howard Grossman."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôWas he employed by the Mirage, was he an
employee of Mirage?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: "I'm not sure what his status was, how
they paid him. I believe he acts as a
consultant on some type of hourly or monthly basis, which
is --whatever they pay him is plenty,
too much."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôWhat were you paid as a card counter
catcher?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: "Not very much. Hundred and - I believe
$187 per day."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôSo there would be an analysis of a
player. What would you do, you recorded
his different moves and then you would have them analyzed?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: "Um-hum. The different bets, if somebody
suspected they might be doing something, (counting cards) and they
actually record every
table at the Mirage. There's two cameras on 24 hours a day and those
cameras are good for
six days. So anything that happened for the past six days, they can
pull up and
backtrack that player's play. And they have a rating system over
there and you knew precisely
what table they were on and what seat the are sitting in. If somebody
suspected someone
(of card counting) they would call surveillance, pull up Table 3 from
three days ago
between the hours of 6 p.m. and 9 p.m., seat #1 and see how the guy
bet."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôIf the guy was identified as a card
counter what would be done?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: ôSeveral things would be done. They
would look in the books, the Griffin books, which you're familiar with
Griffin's books
out here. It's a compilation of books out here that pictures have
been taken of alleged
counters, alleged people that have been to dinner with counters, the
whole thing. It's really
an industry joke, but there is a fellow Griffin who has a detective
agency and he gets mug
shots of people and they put them in this book and they try to use
that to identify (card
counters). They will see if the people identified or a name matches
up with faces and names
in that book."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôBesides the face and name would there be
any other information in that
book?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: "Associates, affiliations. They call the
people in those books suspects
and they would say, Suspect is expected of being, A: A
computer player and this and that.
There are 50 things they can suspect somebody of doing, but
primarily it's for card counters, is to identify them for the people
in
surveillance. Now back to the original question which was what would
we do."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôWould there be an address for some of
the people if the addresses were
known?ö

A: Rubin to Daily: "I donÆt think so. I don't remember
seeing an address."

Q: Daily to Rubin: ôSo my original question, what would be
done (if a person was suspected of
counting cards).

A: Rubin to Daily: "What would be done at the Mirage, it's
different than most clubs. The Mirage policy, unless it's somebody
who's been in the book a
lot or they are, quote, notorious, they would simply tell the person
they have to
flat bet from this point forward.
Flat bet meaning you have to make the same bet every time
you wagered on a blackjack table, otherwise you can play any other
game. That's
typical what would happen. If it's
somebody who had either been told to flat bet before and was
now not flat betting, they would tell them they can't play blackjack.
Third time if
you happen to come in and they told you flat bet, and they say you
couldn't play and you
subsequently played, they would tell you that you cannot come in the
casino any and they
read you the trespass act. And the trespass act essentially means
next time you stop on the
property they will arrest you and take you downtown and fine you $50
and let you go."

Page 5, line 14: Q: Daily to Rubin: ôAnd briefly could you
give us your background in working
in the casino industry?

Start page 5, Line 16: A: Rubin to Daily: ôStarted off in
1966 parking cars as a valet parker at
the Golden Nugget. Through the years going to college I was
a dealer, probably been a dealer for
eight years to ten - eight years anyway on the Las Vegas
strip. Been a casino manager in North
Shore Club, Lake Tahoe. Been pit boos, floor man, etcetera,
etcetera on the Las Vegas strip. At
the end, dealer at the Riviera, Frontier, Sands, Mirage.ö

ôVice president/operator, casino manage at the TeePee
Bingo and Indian Casino in
Langston, Oklahoma, and was owner/operator/manager in Indio,
California. It was known as the
Desert Oasis Indian casino for five years.ö

ôWas the owner/operator of a consulting company that also
assisted with management at
California Card Room down in Los Angeles. ThatÆs the extent
of my jobs and owning places.ö

Daily to Michael Riordan (AKA MAX RUBIN), page 14, line 10.

Daily: ôWhen you were working at the Mirage, how much money
was the Mirage spending to
catch card counters, if you can give me an estimate based
upon you working there?ö

Mr. Bradley (TropWorldÆs lawyer): ôIs this really relevant
to his opinion?ö

Mr. Daily (Sigma's lawyer): ôThis is the last question along
this line and will be the end of it.ö

Max Rubin (AKA Michael Riordan): "I can tell you the process
they went through to catch counters. They had card counting classes
to teach all of
their people what card counting was, and we actually went through a
six-to eight-hour series
where they would teach you about card counting, certain recognition
factors for the
people that were very easily identifiable for the average floor person
so they would at
least have a vague notion of what card counting was."

(Riordan ((Max Rubin)) continues on page 15 line 3 still in
response to the initial question):

"But their actual expense? I don't know if you want to
look at the capital cost, that sort of thing, they had three, four
million dollars in
surveillance equipment there. As far as actual stuff that we are
doing that, they tended to have
their staff wear several hats. You might work the floor and then if
they suspected a problem they
would pull you off."

(Riordan ((Max Rubin)) continues on line 11, page 15 still
answering the initial question:)

"And if they always had an extra person on each shift that
could float around, so somebody could be taken out of the standard
work force and
do some other job, such as catching
counters or analyzing or training some staff, whatever it
may be."

Lawyer Daily's very next question: Daily to Max: Q: ôHave
you ever seen or reviewed any
studies which indicate how much casinos would lose if they
did not take measures against card
counters?ö

Max Replies on page 15, line 19 to the Daily question: "Oh,
I saw the Sigma Report which was obviously self-serving because it was
written by some
people that want to count cards.
I don't think you can do that, whatever study. I could come
up with a study tomorrow, I could
tell you what my interpretation of it is, but you can't do
that."

End of deposition excerpts:
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

Comments:

Fascinating reading don't you think? But what did we learn:

1. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and
associates) claimed that dealers were not taught how to
identify card counters. The sworn card counter catcher
testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey Choen Ph. D MY
ASS and
his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in
respect to this issue.

2. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey Cohen and
associates) claimed that a good *act* would allow you to get
away with card counting. The sworn card counter catcher
testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and
his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in
respect to this issue.


3. The con men casino agents posting here claimed that it was
impossible for a casino
to review each table for card counters. The sworn card
counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably
that Harvey aliases et al and his friends are obviously lying to
this
newsgroup in respect to this issue.


4. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and
his associates) claimed that by moving around between
casinos you could avoid card counting heat. The sworn card
counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably
that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this
newsgroup in respect to this issue.


5. The con men casino agents posting here (like BRubin, aliases et
al)
claimed that your photograph was never
taken nor was placed in any book or that it was impossible
to match up photographs of card counters. The sworn card
counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably
that the con men system hucksters are obviously lying to this
newsgroup in respect to this issue.

6. The con men casino agents posting here (like Abdul, Harvey and
his associates) claimed their card counting systems would
beat real world casinos despite countermeasures. The sworn
card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves
irrefutably that Abdul and his friends are obviously lying
to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.


7. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and
his associates) claimed you are not breaking any laws if
you count cards. Yet we find that trespass violations are
common. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted
herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are
obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue. Clearly
if you want a criminal record along with losing your money,
purchasing a card counting system from one of these hucksters
is the way to go.


8. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey Choen and
his associates) claimed that a suspect card counter was
never video taped. The sworn card counter catcher testimony
posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends
are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this
issue.


9. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and
his associates) claimed that outside card counters were
never used to help casinos identify suspect card counters.
The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein
proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously
lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.


10. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey
and his associates) claimed that even if you associate
with a suspect card counter you will not be erroneously
identified as a suspect card counter yourself. The sworn
card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves
irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying
to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.

11. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey
and his associates) claimed that classes were never held to
teach dealers and floor personnel how to immediately
identify card counters.
They Lied (and in fact some of these system huckster
authors WERE THE INSTRUCTORS teaching dealers how to
identify card counters. The sworn card counter catcher
testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and
his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in
respect to this issue.


And finally, note once again what Mr. Riordan (Max Rubin)
said about the Sigma Report: ô
"Oh, I saw the Sigma Report which was obviously self-serving
because it was written by
some people that want to count cards."

I have posted several times that Harvey, Harkness BRubin, BingoBilly
and their
aliases are simply fabricating stories in a feeble attempt
to discredit me. They know I have years of more in-casino
experience than they will ever have, and that my teams won
more money than any others. They are afraid their con game
will be exposed by someone that really knows the details in
respect to using a card counting system effectively against
a real world casino. This post proves the con men are flagrantly
lying to this newsgroup,
and fabricating malicious libel in an attempt to discredit
anyone that will tell the truth about their system failures.

Note how court and sworn testimony has a way of bringing
out the truth. Also note that this deposition was taken long before
I started to post on RGB. So although
Mr. Riordan was working for the TropWorld, he had no reason
to lie about anything else
involved in catching or identifying suspect card counters.
What was it he said again, "50 WAYS YOU
COULD BE PLACED IN THE SUSPECT CARD COUNTER BOOK!" Yep that
is what he said.

Also consider THIS DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN IN 1994. Since that
date the casinos have went high-tech. So if you thought that Max
Rubin's
description of how suspect card counterswere identified then,
you should hear how much easier it is
for casinos today to label anyone a
card counter in less than five minutes.

Card counting systems are a BIG CON. Max Rubin's (A.K.A.
Mike Riordan) sworn testimony (and dozens of other similar
type depositions provided to the courts by other card
counter catchers during the Campione case) provides
irrefutable proof that the authors and software hucksters
have been lying all along. They are using the fraudulent
claim that card counting systems can still win to sell their
worthless and dangerous systems, books and software. This
post provides clear proof the con men hucksters and casino
agents are lying to this newsgroup and their sucker clients.


Doug Grant (Tm)


.


Michael Solinas

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Dec 27, 2000, 2:11:37 PM12/27/00
to
Doogie!!

It figures you'd post under the subject "Card Counter Catchers Speak!"
I mean, you used to hawk your services as a counter catcher to casinos
under that "Sigma" name. Remember?

We do!


Mike


Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Miz...@webtv.net

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Dec 27, 2000, 4:51:07 PM12/27/00
to
Doogie,
All though you did not quote my post, I feel that you are implying

something that I did not truly say. You wrote:

"Since the latest con from the con men is that casino surveillance
conditions we
say exist are not to be found. And that casinos just love to lose money
to card counters,"

What I said was that where I work we do not use counter measures, and
no where did I say that we love to lose money to card counters. Only
that we would go out of bussiness if players never won.
I am not an alias to anyone. I have been posting as Miss Tie or Mizz
Tie for 2 years, and have only used variations of that handle for that
time.
NO! I will not tell you my real name or any of my personal info.
All the proof you need to see that I am only me is to look at my posting
history at Deja. You would see that I post in places that Harvey and
others do not. Or do you actually think that someone bought a web tv
just to create an alias, so that they could attack your post.
If you attempt to twist my post to support your B___S___, I will
continue to point out that my post have been twisted, and that I in no
way support your claims.
MizzTie

Lester

unread,
Dec 27, 2000, 7:37:20 PM12/27/00
to
Hi Michael!

I anxiously await your arrival to Oradell! Keep me posted!

Happy Holidays!

Lester
"Michael Solinas" <mi...@solinas.com> wrote in message
news:92det3$nel$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Scott Klee

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Dec 29, 2000, 10:53:02 PM12/29/00
to
Arnold, oops, I mean "Michael", who is "We"?

rea...@saliu.com

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Sep 27, 2014, 1:11:31 PM9/27/14
to
O tempora! O mores!

It's been a long time... Blackjack card-counting is dying a slow but irreversible "death". The casinos themselves are going down steadily...

The curious thing is that quite a few gamblers equate Doug Grant to yours truly -- Ion Saliu (royalty name: Parpaluck).

The equation is FALSE, however.

1) Doug Grant was a card-cunter, plus vendor of and instructor in card counting gambling systems for blackjack.

2) Ion Saliu is the founder of gambling mathematics, founder of the True Mathematics of blackjack. I have proved undeniably the lack of a mathematical foundation of card-counting. I did it before Doug Grant or anyone else.

The common point: Both Doug Grant and Ion Saliu expose blackjack card-counting as DECEPTION.

As of Doug Grant's challenge -
I responded by challenging back that guy with a (tm) name: Doug Grant. I double-dared other gambling authorities as well, them experts in card-cunting. I extended the challenge in a dedicated Web page -- yet, nobody dared to take up the challenge:

http://saliu.com/bbs/messages/511.html
("D G DOUG GRANT (tm) Blackjack Casino Gambling Challenge").

blanks...@gmail.com

unread,
Nov 6, 2017, 6:48:06 PM11/6/17
to
Am not going to be doing all post and rental so I look like a fool I don't know who that is why did he or she talk to me personally answer that for me please will you pay out your money because someone say I want you to for everyday post and who am I posting for come on you not gaving out no information like that out not me.

Ion Saliu

unread,
Jan 25, 2018, 5:08:19 PM1/25/18
to
On Monday, December 25, 2000 at 4:06:55 PM UTC-5, DGGRANT wrote:
>
> Also consider THIS DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN IN 1994. Since that date the casinos have went high-tech. So if you thought that Max Rubin's description of how suspect card counterswere identified then, you should hear how much easier it is for casinos today to label anyone a card counter in less than five minutes.
>
> Card counting systems are a BIG CON. Max Rubin's (A.K.A.> Mike Riordan) sworn testimony (and dozens of other similar type depositions provided to the courts by other card counter catchers during the Campione case) provides
> irrefutable proof that the authors and software hucksters have been lying all along. They are using the fraudulent claim that card counting systems can still win to sell their worthless and dangerous systems, books and software. This
> post provides clear proof the con men hucksters and casino agents are lying to this newsgroup and their sucker clients.
>
> Doug Grant (Tm)
>
> .

The worst aspect: Card-counting degenerated into a mental disorder. It is kinduv CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy). Reading posts in blackjack or gambling forums is like reading materials psychiatrists watch for their patients. The card-counters even claim special psychic powers! In truth, every blackjack card-counter is a cuckooyak.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.gambling.blackjack/chujyzO58wQ

Ion Saliu

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Jul 4, 2018, 6:13:58 PM7/4/18
to

The legal excerpt published here can disappear if Google groups shut down. Google is notorious for offering services then discontinuing them. At least 25 such Google services have been canceled.

You might want to reserve your own copy. It is nicely formatted as the user groups are primitive as far as text formatting is concerned.

http://saliu.com/card-counter-catchers.html
• “Card Counter Catchers Speak Out — Developers, authors, vendors of card counting systems for blackjack make money by testifying against… card-counters!”

Ion Saliu

unread,
Sep 13, 2018, 12:13:50 PM9/13/18
to
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 6:13:58 PM UTC-4, Ion Saliu wrote:
> The legal excerpt published here can disappear if Google groups shut down. Google is notorious for offering services then discontinuing them. At least 25 such Google services have been canceled.
>
> You might want to reserve your own copy. It is nicely formatted as the user groups are primitive as far as text formatting is concerned.
>
> • https://saliu.com/card-counter-catchers.html
> • “Card Counter Catchers Speak Out — Developers, authors, vendors of card counting systems for blackjack make money by testifying against… card-counters!”


However, as you can see in this very thread, even “public enemy number one” of card-counter catchers wanted himself to be a… card-counter catcher!!! Obviously, there ain’t any other way to make money as a blackjack card counter!

https://saliu.com/bbs/messages/274.html
Blackjack Card Counting: Systems, Gambling Mathematics, Cult, Fraud, Deception

Ion Saliu,
Founder of Axiomatic Intelligence (AxI)
“The unknown hides in plain sight on the path of the axiomatics.”
saliu.com/neural-networking-lottery.html



parkstre...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 15, 2018, 5:12:19 PM9/15/18
to
On Monday, December 25, 2000 at 4:06:55 PM UTC-5, DGGRANT wrote:
Blackjack is a fun game. It's more fun than poker. Basic Strategy let's one get close to winning, buy not quite. I can't stand poker. It sucks big time. Maybe I can make money playing poker, but it's just not fun.

Ion Saliu

unread,
Nov 30, 2018, 6:12:39 PM11/30/18
to
On Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 12:13:50 PM UTC-4, Ion Saliu wrote:
>
… updating links to HTTPS…
>
> > You might want to reserve your own copy. It is nicely formatted as the user groups are primitive as far as text formatting is concerned.
> >
https://saliu.com/card-counter-catchers.html
• “Card Counter Catchers Speak Out — Developers, authors, vendors of card counting systems for blackjack make money by testifying against… card-counters!”
>
>
> However, as you can see in this very thread, even “public enemy number one” of card-counter catchers wanted himself to be a… card-counter catcher!!! Obviously, there ain’t any other way to make money as a blackjack card counter!
>
https://saliu.com/bbs/messages/274.html
"Blackjack Card Counting: Systems, Gambling Mathematics, Cult, Fraud, Deception".
>
Ion Saliu,
Founder of Axiomatic Intelligence (AxI)
“The unknown hides in plain sight on the path of the axiomatics.”
https://saliu.com/neural-networking-lottery.html

Ion Saliu

unread,
Feb 12, 2019, 2:35:52 PM2/12/19
to
FUN... but misinterpreted by the crooks and cuckos featured in this thread...

https://www.quora.com/Does-blackjack-come-as-close-as-anything-to-a-fair-game-in-a-casino
• Does blackjack come as close as anything to a fair game in a casino?

Ion Saliu

unread,
Jun 5, 2020, 7:41:46 AM6/5/20
to

You can get lost easily in public forums like this Usenet group. THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY POSTS!!!

To solve the problem, I created a thread referring to the most relevant articles, materials, debates, systems, etc. I keep it updated and make sure it shows at the top of this Google group:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.gambling.blackjack/yHJJBp0F9OU
• The Best RGB Posts All-Matters Blackjack, Strategies, Systems, Card Counting, Inevitable Fights.

Ion Saliu (royalty-name: Parpaluck),
Founder of Blackjack Mathematics
https://saliu.com/blackjackodds.html
• Blackjack DEALER-BUST Software to Calculate TRUE Odds, Probability, House Edge.

Ion Saliu

unread,
Sep 20, 2020, 11:33:52 AM9/20/20
to

Sez BJ Bishop Arnold Snyder, “Casino Player Magazine, November 1997”:

“When I self-published my first book, ‘The Blackjack Formula’, in 1980, and advertised it in Gambling Times magazine with the catchy, upbeat slogan: ‘Card Counters Beware’ … stating in the ad that most of the blackjack games available in the casinos of the world were unbeatable with any card counting system … It is easier to make a living writing about this game [blackjack] than it is playing it. I have tried both, and I much prefer the keyboard to the cold green felt.”

Read more fesses in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.gambling.blackjack/pcDm82yV56A
• “The Candor of Famous Blackjack Card Counters”

Ion Saliu

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Aug 3, 2021, 5:52:42 AM8/3/21
to
Added this resource, asking if notorious Doug Grant ™ is still alive:

https://www.gamblingforums.com/threads/doug-grant.397/
• "Doug Grant?"

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