Linda McCartney
Jack Nickelson
This question was brought up here several months ago shortly after her
passing; and immediately received heated flames. But hopefully now, with the
passage of time, we can discuss this intelligently and with less emotion.
I believe she was not. The reason for this is looking at one of her
cookbooks, there is dairy and/or eggs in most of her recipes, it's all over
the place.
Another factor that leads me to believe that she wasn't vegan is that when
her and Paul became vegetarians back in the early 1970's, there was not the
concept of vegan, at least they were very few in numbers. I'm not even sure
the term "vegan" was around before the 1990's. When you told people that you
were vegetarian, the first thing they asked was "What do you do for
protein?" You had better answer "Dairy & eggs" or you were looked upon as a
real lunatic.
You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda McCartney
was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the leading
proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not only
a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters about
this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
And with the recent findings linking cancer to dairy, I do wonder how much
dairy she ate. If she ate the foods from her cookbooks, it was quite a lot.
--
Jack
John Davis
<gala...@fairwayinsurance.com> writes
>Another factor that leads me to believe that she wasn't vegan is that when
>her and Paul became vegetarians back in the early 1970's, there was not the
>concept of vegan, at least they were very few in numbers. I'm not even sure
>the term "vegan" was around before the 1990's.
It's difficult to have much of discussion about anything with someone so
unaware of basic history. The following was written for another list but
you might find it illuminating:
------
Some background to 'vegetarian' and 'vegan'
The earliest non-meat-eaters that we know anything much about were in
India and Ancient Greece (Pythagoreans), they used plant food plus dairy
products - what we would now call lacto-vegetarian, which has always
been, and still is, the predominant form of vegetarianism in India.
The use of eggs was added by the British, probably in the 18th century
when they revived the Pythagorean ideas. We can't be entirely sure why
eggs were added but in the relatively cold, damp climate of Northern
England, where all this was happening, the variety of fresh plant foods
would have been much more limited than in India or the Mediterranean.
Imports would have been very expensive and not very fresh by the time
they arrived, so accepting eggs may have been a pragmatic decision. We
would now call this group ovo-lacto-vegetarians and they are still the
predominant tradition in the UK.
In 1847 the word 'vegetarian' was invented by Joseph Brotherton and
friends - the founders of the UK Vegetarian Society. Before that they
rather innacurately called themselves Pythagoreans but no-one seemed to
be too concerned about accuracy until the V word was invented, and we've
been arguing about it ever since. The original definition was about
eating various plant-foods, not eating 'meat, fish or fowl' and the
immortal final phrase: 'with or without eggs or dairy produce'. Hence
the lacto-veg and ovo-lacto-veg.
Those who ate neither eggs nor dairy produce became known as 'strict
vegetarians' and those remained the three main groups for the next
hundred years or so.
However... as early as 1851 there was an article in the Vegetarian
Society magazine (copies still exist) about alternatives to leather for
making shoes, there was even a report of someone patenting a new
material. So there was always another group who were not just 'strict
vegetarians' but also avoided using animal products for clothing or
other purposes - naturally they wanted their own 'word' too, but they
had a long wait.
In 1944 Donald Watson and friends invented the word 'vegan' to fill the
gap, and founded the Vegan Society (in the UK) specifically for this
group. They defined the word in terms of all animal products, not just a
diet, as that was the reason for inventing it, and everyone was happy -
until the Americans got involved...
The British ideas had long since crossed the Atlantic but, as always,
Americans have their own way of doing things. Whilst many used the same
words, for the same reasons, even more began to use them differently.
The health aspect of vegetarianism has always seemed to be a bigger
issue in America than in Britain, and a lot of people who only ate meat
occasionally, for health reasons, started calling themselves
'vegetarian'. The latest surveys suggest that, in the USA, there are up
to seven times as many of these 'semi' vegetarians as genuine
vegetarians by any of the definitions above.
For many, the logic of the health argument also leads to the removal of
eggs/dairy products and it would appear that a very much higher
proportion of American vegetarians are 'no eggs/dairy' than in Britain,
but again a significant proportion of those are primarily motivated by
health, and are therefore not bothered about wearing leather etc. This
fits the 'strict vegetarian' group, but in the best of American
traditions, they then confused things further by insisting on calling
themselves 'vegan'.
This has become so common that the UK Vegan Society has had to
acknowledge the development of its original word into concepts of
'dietary vegan' and 'ethical vegan', even though 'dietary vegans' are
almost unknown in the UK, or anywhere else outside of North America.
"another fine mess" as one eminent American might have said...
----------
john
--
http://www.ivu.org - International Vegetarian Union
http://www.ivu.org/evu - European Vegetarian Union
http://www.ivu.org/vuna - Vegetarian Union of North America
http://www.ivu.org/avu - Asian Vegetarian Union
Header altered to prevent spam - email address on web pages
postm...@127.0.0.1
>You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda
>McCartney was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of
>the leading proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast
>cancer is not only a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us
>vegetarians who claim health benefits from vegetarians (please no
>responses from meateaters about this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk
>to meateaters)
I take issue with this. Cancer strikes many, and we don't have all the
answers. Vegetarianism is one positive factor in a person's life.
Linda McCartney was certainly no embarrassment.
--
GK
FrodoJRR at Interaccess dot com
focuson...@webtv.net
vegetarian cause and her passing was a great loss. Only truly stupid
people think that vegetarianism (or anything else) is a cure-all for
every disease. Vegetarians that make insensitive, really ignorant
remarks ARE an embarassment!
Marge Sulla
Thank you John for your informative post. I appreciated it.
Marge
Marge Sulla
of animals everywhere. I am truly proud of her. She is a great woman.
People do get cancer from other things. Look at all the very young children
that get cancer. And the government (at least the US gov) allows so much
polluting in our environment that my guess is we get many cancers because of
that.
Marge
postmaster@[127.0.0.1] wrote in message
<36731dd4$1$sebqbwee$mr2...@nntp.interaccess.com>...
Jack Nickelson
<36731dd4$1$sebqbwee$mr2...@nntp.interaccess.com>...
>In <BgBc2.378$BZ6...@news.rdc1.pa.home.com>, on 12/12/98
> at 09:31 PM, "Jack Nickelson" <gala...@fairwayinsurance.com> said:
>
>>You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda
>>McCartney was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of
>>the leading proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast
>>cancer is not only a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us
>>vegetarians who claim health benefits from vegetarians (please no
>>responses from meateaters about this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk
>>to meateaters)
>
>I take issue with this. Cancer strikes many, and we don't have all the
>answers. Vegetarianism is one positive factor in a person's life.
>
>Linda McCartney was certainly no embarrassment.
>
But was she vegan?
postm...@127.0.0.1
>>>McCartney was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of
>>>the leading proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast
>>>cancer is not only a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us
>>>vegetarians who claim health benefits from vegetarians (please no
>>>responses from meateaters about this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk
>>>to meateaters)
>>
>>I take issue with this. Cancer strikes many, and we don't have all the
>>answers. Vegetarianism is one positive factor in a person's life.
>>
>>Linda McCartney was certainly no embarrassment.
>>
>But was she vegan?
I don't understand the point of this question.
Jack Nickelson
One out of six american women will develop breast cancer. According to
recent studies, dairy is a risk (Check out:
http://www.vegsource.com/harris/b_cancer.htm). The point is, if she were
not vegan, maybe she could become a poster-child for the anti-dairy
movement. Use her popularity to persuade women not to eat dairy, reduce the
incidence of breast cancer. I'm sure she would have wanted that.
I'm not trying to say that there are not other factors involved with breast
cancer.
When this point was brought up several months ago, someone hysterically
responded that Linda was absolutely a vegan because she loved animals,
didn't wear leather, etc. But, as i mentioned, reading her cook book
"Home Cooking" leads me to believe otherwise. For example, in the soup
chapter, there are 21 soups with only 8 of them vegan. Here's a typical one:
Watercress Soup
4 tablespoons butter or margarine (ok, let's assume she went with margarine,
no problem)
2 medium onions, chopped
1 clove garlic, crushed
2 medium potatoes, cubed
2 bunches watercress, chopped
2 1/4 cups vegetable stock or water
salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
1 1/2 cups milk
1/2 cup light cream
2 egg yolks, beaten
Anyone that would put that much milk/cream in a soup called Watercress, had
to have some kind of perverse love affair with dairy . Another one, Mushroom
soup, has 1 cup heavy cream, 2 cups milk, & 7 tablespoons butter; sheesh ,
why doesn't the woman just throw the whole cow in there? The rest of the
book is the same.
The book i'm referencing , was printed in 1990; she authored several
later cook books of which i have not seen. Perhaps these books are more
appealing to vegans. Does anybody own these? Can anyone shed light on this?
Was Linda a vegan?
--
Jack
AgentBlue
>The book i'm referencing , was printed in 1990; she authored several
>later cook books of which i have not seen. Perhaps these books are more
>appealing to vegans. Does anybody own these? Can anyone shed light on
this?
>Was Linda a vegan?
>
>
>--
>Jack
>
When she and Paul guest voiced on the simpsons (the episode where lisa goes
veggie) awhile back did'nt she refer to herself as a lacto-ovo? Maybe not
the best reference but it's better than nothing.
Barb Burman
>
> postmaster@[127.0.0.1] wrote in message
> >In <BgBc2.378$BZ6...@news.rdc1.pa.home.com>, on 12/12/98
> > at 09:31 PM, "Jack Nickelson" <gala...@fairwayinsurance.com> said:
> >
> >>You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda
> >>the leading proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast
> >>cancer is not only a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us
> >>vegetarians who claim health benefits from vegetarians (please no
> >>responses from meateaters about this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk
> >>to meateaters)
> >
> >I take issue with this. Cancer strikes many, and we don't have all the
> >answers. Vegetarianism is one positive factor in a person's life.
> >
> >Linda McCartney was certainly no embarrassment.
> >
>
> But was she vegan?
not. Paul did say that his son, James, is a vegan and Paul is very
proud of him for that.
Laura Cisco
name now, but its only a couple of years old), I believe that she
actually says milk and eggs are okay if they come from free-range
animals. She calls them, "gifts given freely...."
swe...@bmeworld.com
Laura Cisco <reso...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I don't think she was vegan. In her last cookbook ( I can't remember the
> name now, but its only a couple of years old), I believe that she
> actually says milk and eggs are okay if they come from free-range
> animals. She calls them, "gifts given freely...."
On this line of logic, I used to think of dairy and eggs as "gifts given
freely...." too, until I called Horizon and asked what happened to the male
calves born to their dairy cows. Since even an organic company like Horizon
sells them on the open market, the gift doesn't seem so free anymore. Of
course, same with male chickens...
Jack, thanks for bringing up this Linda topic. It was something I had also
been wondering about.
Wendy - proud new sponser of a Farm Sancutary cow - Lester!
--
"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently
is selling something." -- The Princess Bride
¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤·¤
http://www.bmeworld.com/sweetie
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Mike Kenzie
(swe...@bmeworld.com) writes:
> In article <36754A1A...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Laura Cisco <reso...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On this line of logic, I used to think of dairy and eggs as "gifts given
> freely...." too, until I called Horizon and asked what happened to the male
> calves born to their dairy cows. Since even an organic company like Horizon
> sells them on the open market, the gift doesn't seem so free anymore. Of
> course, same with male chickens...
And what do you think happens to them if you don't drink the milk or eat
the eggs?
they DIE anyways
--
@ @ ('> @ @ @
@ | @ | @ ,',) @ | @ | @ | @
\|/\|/\|/\|/\|/ ''<< \|/\|/\|/\|/\|/\|/\|/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Laura Cisco
that if people stopped consuming dairy and eggs, there would be no
demand and factory farms would become a thing of the past.....
Marge Sulla
dairy, hoping the same as you.
Marge
Laura Cisco wrote in message <3676A732...@ix.netcom.com>...
Mike Kenzie
"Marge Sulla" (msu...@concentric.net) writes:
> Yes, Laura, I agree. I used to eat free range eggs but now gave up all
> dairy, hoping the same as you.
> Marge
>
> Laura Cisco wrote in message <3676A732...@ix.netcom.com>...
>>This wasn't actually my response, but I'll answer anyway -- I would hope
>>that if people stopped consuming dairy and eggs, there would be no
>>demand and factory farms would become a thing of the past.....
What would happen to the animals currently in the factory farms?
By leaving the marketplace you offer no insentive for the farmers to
imporve conditions for the animals. If consumers only purchased
free-range eggs and milk then farmers would start producing them.
If people stop buying them all together then they get sent for pet food,
or worse. Recently a pork farmer made the news by abandoning away from his
farm because pork prices were so low. All the hogs starved to death in
the barn.
Marge Sulla
>What would happen to the animals currently in the factory farms?
>
>By leaving the marketplace you offer no insentive for the farmers to
>imporve conditions for the animals. If consumers only purchased
>free-range eggs and milk then farmers would start producing them.
>
>If people stop buying them all together then they get sent for pet food,
>or worse. Recently a pork farmer made the news by abandoning away from his
>farm because pork prices were so low. All the hogs starved to death in
>the barn.
That is terrible, Mike, and I hope the authorities arrested and charged him
with animal cruelty. If they didn't they sure should because THAT's WHAT IT
IS! If they didn't, the people of the community should have put up a fuss
and something would have been done. What a self-centered, little spoiled
brat baby that farmer must be. I watched my father lose not one business but
two... and every time he acted cheerful, pulled himself up and started
again. He didn't take a temper tantrum and starve the animals and leave his
family. That's not what a grown up does.
Please don't ask me to eat animals and animal by products because of the
self-centered behavior of people who just don't get it. They should go into
another business. I've changed my field four times so please don't tell me
that would be too difficult - it isn't. Do you think your children should
smoke cigarettes and possibly die of cancer because "oh what will the
tobacco farmers do if nobody buys the product?"
He could have been a winner by going to the media and explaining his plight
and saying he was going to have them butchered for the homeless and that
he'd have to start over and do something else and that he'd appreciate ideas
from the community. I'll bet he would have received all kinds of offers.
That would have made a much better statement and would have been a real
positive for him and his family.
Marge
Cryptik67
>What would happen to the animals currently in the factory farms?
It is HIGHLY unlikely for everyone to just STOP eating meat/dairy all at once.
Hopefully, as people become educated, one by one, they will then learn the
correct way to eat, thereby, gradually phasing out factory farming
jwwr...@livingston.net
alternatives. people don't quit thier habits, unhealthy or not.
regards.
Lise
butter and other dairy.
Jack Nickelson wrote:
> Was Linda McCartney a vegan?
>
> This question was brought up here several months ago shortly after her
> passing; and immediately received heated flames. But hopefully now, with the
> passage of time, we can discuss this intelligently and with less emotion.
>
> I believe she was not. The reason for this is looking at one of her
> cookbooks, there is dairy and/or eggs in most of her recipes, it's all over
> the place.
>
> Another factor that leads me to believe that she wasn't vegan is that when
> her and Paul became vegetarians back in the early 1970's, there was not the
> concept of vegan, at least they were very few in numbers. I'm not even sure
> the term "vegan" was around before the 1990's. When you told people that you
> were vegetarian, the first thing they asked was "What do you do for
> protein?" You had better answer "Dairy & eggs" or you were looked upon as a
> real lunatic.
>
> You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda McCartney
> was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the leading
> proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not only
> a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
> health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters about
> this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
>
Veggie ib
Nora
Prevention Diet (book). He advocates a vegetarian diet with
lots of soy. It's very interesting and informative reading.
*selah*
>: You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda McCartney
>: was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the leading
>: proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not only
>: a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
>: health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters about
>: this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
A number of things can contribute to the growth of cancer. I've read that
cancer cells are big sugar eaters so we may find out some day that a high
sugar diet causes cancer to spread.
--
Remove iii from address to reply.
CRMiller
>
> Was Linda McCartney a vegan?
Did she ever claim to be?
>
>
> You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda McCartney
> was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the leading
> proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not only
> a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
> health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters about
> this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
>
Why in the hell is her death an embarrassment to anyone? And why to
'vegetarians who claim health benefits'? Were you under the impression
that vegetarianism would forever protect you from all disease? Were you
really? Were you under the impression that vegetarians never got
cancer?
I have never seen a single study that showed a vegetarian diet
eliminated *any* of the major chronic diseases that cause so many of the
problems in our modern industrial society. Notice I said 'eliminated'.
Most of them show some reduced incidence of these diseases, and the
results are often varied, but *reducing* the number of cancers by
whatever percentage in a vegetarian population does not eliminate them
altogether. It may reduce your chances. That's all. Some will still
get it. And that certainly includes breast cancer.
So exactly how does that add up to an embarrassment?
crmiller
--
Remove NOT for email
I publish email as I see fit
Chris French
<so...@iii.dorsai.org> writes>>:
>>: You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda McCartney
>>: was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the leading
>>: proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not only
>>: a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
>>: health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters about
>>: this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
>
>cancer cells are big sugar eaters
Cancer cells need to rapidly reproduce so that the tumour can grow. Or
new cells be spread around the body. This is an energy intensive
activity (as with any other cell), as with all cells, the source of this
energy is sugar
> so we may find out some day that a high
>sugar diet causes cancer to spread.
>
Possibly, but reducing you energy intake enough to stop cancer cells
breeding would probably cause you other problems.....
--
Chris French, Leeds
Email address valid for at least two weeks from posting
Jack Straw
>In article <slrn78bh6...@amanda.dorsai.org>, *selah*
><so...@iii.dorsai.org> writes
>>>Jack Nickelson (gala...@fairwayinsurance.com) wrote:
>>>: Was Linda McCartney a vegan?
>>>:
>
>> so we may find out some day that a high
>>sugar diet causes cancer to spread.
cases. Some foods are coverted to glucose more rapidly than others. The
big problems of a high-sugar diet aren't really the sugar itself. It is
things like obesiety, lack of nutrition from poor quality foods, etc.
>
>Possibly, but reducing you energy intake enough to stop cancer cells
>breeding would probably cause you other problems.....
Yeah, like death!
Latter,
Michael
--
Foster peculiarity for the sake of abundance
ecohobbes
Lady Ariel wrote in message ...
No, ovo-lacto vegetarian I understand.
>: You might ask "Why is this question important to me?". Well, Linda
McCartney
>: was the poster child for vegetarianism for a long time, one of the
leading
>: proponents ; very outspoken. And for her to die of breast cancer is not
only
>: a tragedy for the world; but an embarrassment to us vegetarians who claim
>: health benefits from vegetarians (please no responses from meateaters
about
>: this, i am not in this newsgroup to talk to meateaters)
This is a single incident. Statistically a survey of one proves (or even
suggests) nothing. If she hadn't been famous you wouldn't even know about
it.
>I am a little worried about becoming a complete vegetarian for this exact
>reason. I'm debating with myself (no one else) whether or not it's better
>to cut out more of the dairy stuff and eat a little bit of meat than it
>is to go the other way around and cut out the meat and still eat the
>dairy.
As I understand it if you're looking purely from a health point of view
dairy in excess is something to worry about as much as meat - certainly if
you avoid beef and pork. I've got friends who've cut out dairy entirely to
very noticable effect in very short periods.
>: And with the recent findings linking cancer to dairy, I do wonder how
much
>: dairy she ate. If she ate the foods from her cookbooks, it was quite a
lot.
>Do you have any links to any of these articles...I would be really
>interested in them. I pretty much *know* that if I give up meat, my dairy
>consumption will increase.
Not if you plan your diet properly, but I take your point - the likelihood
is that it will. I used to find this was an issue but the increase in good
quality meat substitutes has been a real help here.
HTH
'hobbes.
ban...@my-dejanews.com
> >Possibly, but reducing you energy intake enough to stop cancer cells
> >breeding would probably cause you other problems.....
> Yeah, like death!
> Latter,
> Michael
>>> Everyone seems to forget that McCartney authored cookbooks which feature
dairy product use prominently.
>>> Dairy is loaded with survivable hormones the most powerful of which is IGF-
1 (insulin type growth factor). IGF-1 has been found at every cancer site
investigated and is the single factor promoting cancer cell replication.
IGF-1 is the only hormone across the thousands of mammal species to be found
precisely identical in two species: cows and humans. In an adult the only
thing left to accept growth instructions are cancer cells. Increase IGF-1
levels over naturally occurring levels and the results are predictable.
--
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