Baguette au levain

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Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
19.06.2004, 11:52:3919.06.04
an
========== REZKONV-Rezept - RezkonvSuite v0.97

Titel: Baguette Au Levain
Kategorien: Brot, USA
Menge: 6 Baguettes 14 " or 5 Baguettes à 250 g

510 Gramm (18 ounces) Levain (starter 100 % hydration)
531 Gramm (2 1/4 cups = 18 fluid ounces) water *
684 Gramm - 827 Gramm (24 - 29 ounces) all-purpose flour
1 Essl. (tablespoon) salt

============================== QUELLE ==============================
Daniel Leader, Bread Alone 1993
-- Erfasst *RK* 13.06.04 von
-- Ulrike Westphal

Mix all ingredients and ferment 2 hours at room temperature (74 F -81
F recommended). Deflate and cut in 6 (5) pieces. Shape into balls on
a lightly floured board. Let rest for 30 minutes. Flatten with heel
of hand and shape into baguettes. Proof until doubled in volume (2
hours) and bake at 225 °C (450 F) with steam on a baking stone for 20
minutes.

=====
I tried this recipe with German all-purpose flour Type 405 with 20 % germs
(protein 10.6 %) from soft wheat. I used only 1 1/3 cups* water for 24
ounces flour. The dough was a little sticky and very soft so it did the
proof and the baking in a baguette pan.

Hydration: ~60 %
Final dough weight: 1482 g = 52 ounces;
Baguettes weight: 1247 g (2x 251 g, 2x 237 g, 1x 271 g) = 43,8 oz
5 baguettes = each about 34 cm x 5 cm x 5 cm (13,4" x 2" x 2")
The results are visible at
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Baguettes.html
Thanks to Ed Bechtel to post my pictures.

Ulrike Westphal

Ed Bechtel

ungelesen,
19.06.2004, 23:50:4619.06.04
an
Nice baguette photos.

I have 2 comments.

1. It looks like the recipe using all 531 grams of water would produce dough
with a hydration over 80 percent. My experience with 80 percent hydration is
that I've got pancake batter. The best I can do with that hydration is form the
plop of dough into a ciabatta. No wonder you cut the water back.

2. That's some nice baking equipment you've got there. Where did you find the 5
slot baguette pan? Do you slide the pan onto a preheated baking stone?

3. Thanks for sharing photos. It looks like flash was used. Sometimes flash
obliterates the detail in the crumb photo. It was suggested to me to try using
oblique sunlight for the closeup crumb photo. My problem is that the bread is
sliced at night-time, or I don't have a tetrahedryl rotovator to project the
incoming beam of sunlight into the kitchen at the proper oblique angle.

4. The bread you make with type 405 all purpose flour looks good. How is the
flavor?

Ed

Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
20.06.2004, 06:44:2120.06.04
an

"Ed Bechtel" <smoke...@aol.comnojunk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040619235046...@mb-m22.aol.com...

> Nice baguette photos.
>
> I have 2 comments.
>
> 1. It looks like the recipe using all 531 grams of water would produce
dough
> with a hydration over 80 percent. My experience with 80 percent hydration
is
> that I've got pancake batter. The best I can do with that hydration is
form the
> plop of dough into a ciabatta. No wonder you cut the water back.
>
> 2. That's some nice baking equipment you've got there. Where did you find
the 5 > slot baguette pan? Do you slide the pan onto a preheated baking
stone?

I slide the baguette pan with the gridiron into the hot oven. I found the
pan at
http://www.hobbybaecker.de/hobbyshop/index.html?target=p_802.html&lang=de

> 3. Thanks for sharing photos. It looks like flash was used. Sometimes
flash
> obliterates the detail in the crumb photo. It was suggested to me to try
using
> oblique sunlight for the closeup crumb photo. My problem is that the bread
is
> sliced at night-time, or I don't have a tetrahedryl rotovator to project
the
> incoming beam of sunlight into the kitchen at the proper oblique angle.

And I'm unable to turn off the slash, because I can't find the manual and
the "owner" of the camera is not available.

> 4. The bread you make with type 405 all purpose flour looks good. How is
the
> flavor?
>
> Ed

I would say it had a nice sourdough flavor.
Ulrike


Roy Basan

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 04:16:4621.06.04
an
"Ulrike Westphal" <ostwe...@yahoo.de> wrote in message news:<2jj5qdF...@uni-berlin.de>...

That is the same recipe used by the bakery speciliazing in gourmet
breads I recently visited but the resulting bread was more bold
looking similar to a bakers yeast raised baguette.
It might be that your flour does not offer such satisfactory oven
spring or you slightly overproofed it so as to have minimal opening
of the slashes..In addition your home oven may not be optimized for
such dough.
Meanwhile the flour protein used by that bakery was 11.6%.
Rouy

Dick Adams

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 08:42:1621.06.04
an

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> in message news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...
commented on Ulrike's loaves at
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Baguettes.html

> It might be that your flour does not offer such satisfactory oven
> spring or you slightly overproofed it so as to have minimal opening
> of the slashes..In addition your home oven may not be optimized for
> such dough.

Looks good to me. What does your bread look like, Roy? Do
you know much about baking in a home oven? Exactly what should
be done to optimize a home oven?

Exactly what properties of flour are needed for satisfactory oven spring?

One thing is for sure -- you can't really make a baguette in a home
oven because home ovens are not deep enough.

---
DickA

Wcsjohn

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 10:54:3321.06.04
an
>
>Looks good to me. What does your bread look like, Roy? Do=20

>you know much about baking in a home oven? Exactly what should
>be done to optimize a home oven?
>
>Exactly what properties of flour are needed for satisfactory oven =
>spring?

In my experience, flour type, provided it has enough gluten to make
satisfactory bread, is very much less important than developing gluten during
mixing, kneading and rising, and timing of baking in ensuring good oven
spring. If you're looking for spectacular slash opening AND a light crumb your
ideal baking window can be as narrow as 10 minutes. (on a hot day with
commercial yeast - I've not yet discovered how close the timing can be on
sourdough baguettes.)


>
>One thing is for sure -- you can't really make a baguette in a home=20

Wcsjohn

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 11:01:0921.06.04
an
Apologies, Dick, I had a bad attack of cheap fingers and hit the send buttton
before finishing the previous post.

>
>>
>>One thing is for sure -- you can't really make a baguette in a home=20
>>oven because home ovens are not deep enough.
>>
>>---
>>DickA
>>

The name "baguette" is, I agree, at best, a courtesy title for long thin home
baked loaves. The most I can produce in my oven is a Baton or Ficelle.

John

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 18:41:0921.06.04
an
"Dick Adams" <bad....@nonexist.com> wrote in message news:<IIABc.108461$Gx4....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> "Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> in message
> news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...
> commented on Ulrike's loaves at
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Baguettes.html
>

> Looks good to me. What does your bread look like, Roy? Do

> you know much about baking in a home oven? Exactly what should
> be done to optimize a home oven?

Try to visualize DicK
IF you compare the appearance of bakers yeast raised baguette and
that levain baguette made in that bakery( both with no additives and
fermented normally/traditioanally) they have similarities.I think in
some cases you had passsed by a bakery who sold such levain raised
french stick and you can see the difference.
To me,The major difference are, the taste which is superior with the
levain raised bread.The nice split of the slash pattern,the bold
looking appearance which seems to tell the customer' buy me, I both
look good and taste good'.
Meanwhile that bread shown in the pictures looks tired , (and
obese?)as the slits did not even open well.That bread in the
pictures,seems to say' I am sorry I look grumpy today, but who cares I
still taste good<g>.

> Exactly what properties of flour are needed for satisfactory oven
> spring?

Well dick you are smart to figure that out.There is no point
explaining the technical details .Even without the specialized
knowledge you can recognize a bread made with a good flour and poor
one.
Do not pretend<g>.You had virtually spent your life baking at home and
therefore you should notice the variations in flour you use. Unless
you are a friggin loyalist for a particular type of flour, just like
your zeal for sourdough.It is best for you to discover that out for
your self.


> One thing is for sure -- you can't really make a baguette in a home
> oven because home ovens are not deep enough.

A baguette can still be made satisfactorily,but even if the recipe are
similar,but it will never come out exactly the same as that made with
the institutional oven used for such purpose.In addition another
significant point the skilled commercial baker understood the
processing technique totally and had elevated to an art the way of
slashing the dough before baking in order to obtain the desired
attractive apppearance on the bread.
Try to imitate that skill at the luxury of your home.
Roy

Dick Adams

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 20:28:2521.06.04
an

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

> ... Try to imitate that skill (that of the skilled commercial baker)(in "the

> way of slashing the dough before baking in order to obtain the desired

> attractive apppearance on the bread") (in) the luxury of your home.

Or maybe in the squalor of my mud hut.

Deep in my heart, I believe that attempting to imitate the so-called skill of
the so-called commercial baker, whether he be a skilled one, or one of the
common garden-variety kind, is a mistake for the home baker.

One item in particular: for most purposes, a baker with an ordinary home
oven should, in the case of sourdough, not count on oven-push, but should
take the major portion of the rise before the bake. In order, then, for the
slashes to open properly, they should be made in advance of the bake, like
maybe an hour, depending on conditions.

That pretty-much eliminates the possibility of the banneton-peel flip-flop
technique. That, for most home-bakers, is a real good way to collapse the
loaf even before the final punishment (slashing). That is to say that baking
the loaf/loaves in the same orientation as it/they were risen in, is a desirable
simplification for the home baker. Ulrike, for instance, can do that on
account of the form that she uses.

> A baguette ... will never come out exactly the same as that made with
> the institutional oven ...

Yep, you can say that again! Home bakers, unless their name is Kenneth,
do not have the same ovens as institutionalized bakers.

--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

P.S. for John. John, the "=20"s are real. They are legitmate Internet Flotsam.
They were also noted by "Bob" sp...@spam.com. They are sometimes
appended to the first line of a quote by the dark forces.

Steve B

ungelesen,
21.06.2004, 21:32:5121.06.04
an
"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...
> In addition another
> significant point the skilled commercial baker understood the
> processing technique totally and had elevated to an art the way of
> slashing the dough before baking in order to obtain the desired
> attractive apppearance on the bread.
> Try to imitate that skill at the luxury of your home.

Roy, you shouldn't sell the home baker short. That skill can be 'imitated'
quite readily by the home baker, as evidenced by the following photo of a
batard that I baked in my home kitchen:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bread_pictures/vwp?.dir=/Steve+B&.dnm=Batard.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t

(one may need to belong to the Yahoo Bread Pictures group to view the photo)

- Steve Brandt


Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 09:07:5022.06.04
an

"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:7%LBc.69138$2i5.14681@attbi_s52...
I am unable to access the Yahoo photos. I get an error even though I have a
logon ID.
Ulrike


Steve B

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 09:10:5022.06.04
an
"Ulrike Westphal" <ostwe...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:2jqp9gF...@uni-berlin.de...

> I am unable to access the Yahoo photos. I get an error even though I have
a
> logon ID.
> Ulrike

Ulrike, I believe you may have to join the Yahoo Bread Pictures group, in
addition to logging on to Yahoo, in order to see the pictures.

- Steve Brandt


Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 09:53:1722.06.04
an

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040621105433...@mb-m03.aol.com...

Probably Roy is right with my flour. I used flour with 2% germs. So 0.5 g
protein in 100 g originates from germ, so that my flour has only 9.9 %
protein that contains gluten far away from 11.6 %. Where little is, can't
develop much.

Ulrike


Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 09:57:5522.06.04
an

"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:udWBc.159606$Ly.114839@attbi_s01...
I am already member of that groupa and I get that error message
Ulrike


jajaj

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 11:11:0722.06.04
an
man, i've been wondering how to get rid of some oven push.. unless i
slash correctly, my loaves go a bit disfigured in the oven. when i do
slash correctly, the slashes get "rounded out" by the push

jeremy lakey - firstname at lastname dot net

Ed Bechtel

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 11:51:4622.06.04
an
Steve wrote:

<< you may have to join the Yahoo Bread Pictures group, in
addition to logging on to Yahoo, in order to see the pictures. >>


Ed asks,

Steve ... internet service providers sometimes include a few megabytes of
personal web space, http/mysite.comcast.net/thebigsteve (I just made that up
don't click on it).

Is it possible for you to FTP your photo(s) up to your web site. I am having
hella time getting to yahoo pictures.

ed

Dusty

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 20:10:5122.06.04
an
Or--and this goes for any of y'all reading here--I'm more than happy to post
your pix to my website. I'm my own ISP and site manager, and can take a
post of any size. Label 'em and/or include any text you want with 'em, and
send 'em on over. I'll post 'em as soon as I get 'em...

I'll do ANYTHING to not have to try to access that miserable Yahoo site!


Regards all,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

"Ed Bechtel" <smoke...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040622115146...@mb-m15.aol.com...

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 22:04:4922.06.04
an
"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<7%LBc.69138$2i5.14681@attbi_s52>...

Hello Steve, I tried to check the pictures you want to show but
failed to get into with a yahoo ID. I got an error message as well.I
used to eaaily get in but now no more.
Roy

Dusty

ungelesen,
22.06.2004, 22:06:3722.06.04
an
Roy, try it here:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Bread/Pix/


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

...

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
23.06.2004, 03:24:5523.06.04
an
"Dusty" <bake...@innerSTORElodge.com> wrote in message news:<10dhpdf...@corp.supernews.com>...

> Roy, try it here:
> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Bread/Pix/
>
>
> Dusty
>

Thanks Dusty,
Yeah that long batard looks satisfactory ; slashed at the correct
angle at the proper point of proofing indicating the possibility that
the guy who made it had a job experience/ training in the baking
industry .
But still I do not find that to be perfect if compared to the
product I saw made by bakery specializing in such kind of French
stick using either baker's yeast or levain as raising agent.
Many bakeries are happy with that kind of appearance but not the
discriminating french baker. I am sure that an old timer french baker
(whom I know) have still something considerable to say against that
bread (latest) bread picture from the aesthetic point of view.I have
seen how he criticized the appearance of even breads very
satisfactorily made by his fellow french bakers.Much better than what
is in that picture.
Therefore those bakers who had elevated to an art the making of such
bread is difficult to please and there is no doubt that a trained
hobbyist ( like steve)will be disheartened to hear the disparaging
criticism of their work.
Roy

Kenneth

ungelesen,
23.06.2004, 05:48:5923.06.04
an
On 23 Jun 2004 00:24:55 -0700, rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote:

>But still I do not find that to be perfect if compared to the
>product I saw made by bakery specializing in such kind of French
>stick using either baker's yeast or levain as raising agent.

Hi Roy,

You imply that there are many limitations to this particular bread
that are visible to you.

Might you mention to us just one or two characteristics that would be
improved upon by your colleague...?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Steve B

ungelesen,
23.06.2004, 13:24:0123.06.04
an
Roy,

You missed my point entirely. I never claimed that I produced the 'perfect'
batard (by the way, I was 'the guy who made it' and I have never had a job
or training in the baking industry). Instead, my point was that it is
possible for experienced home bakers to get results that rival those of
commercial bakers.

- Steve Brandt

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

> Yeah that long batard looks satisfactory ; slashed at the correct


> angle at the proper point of proofing indicating the possibility that
> the guy who made it had a job experience/ training in the baking
> industry .

> But still I do not find that to be perfect...


Roy Basan

ungelesen,
23.06.2004, 14:35:5123.06.04
an
Kenneth <use...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message news:<3ckid0trh3fqn3im3...@4ax.com>...

> On 23 Jun 2004 00:24:55 -0700, rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote:
>
> >But still I do not find that to be perfect if compared to the
> >product I saw made by bakery specializing in such kind of French
> >stick using either baker's yeast or levain as raising agent.
>
> Hi Roy,
>
> You imply that there are many limitations to this particular bread
> that are visible to you.
>
> Might you mention to us just one or two characteristics that would be
> improved upon by your colleague...?
>
> Thanks,

Kenneth, that Steve's batard is already satisfactory and is similar to
the one that I used to make in the bakery; but as that bread is not
my speciallty I am not qualified to crtiticize precisely just what
that old French baker did to my bread and even to his fellow french
bakers..
There are a cerrtain nuances and variation in the appearance of the
baked french stick that only those people who devoted decades of their
life making that bread can offer precise comments that I ignore as
too exactlng in detail..
Just be contented that the efforts of steve is already considered a
very significant improvement in the apperance of that bread. if
compared to normal homemade french stick.; and incidentally some
bakeries could not even make thier french stick to that level of
quality. of steve;s batard.

Roy

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 01:27:4624.06.04
an
"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<N0jCc.164511$Ly.79398@attbi_s01>...

> Roy,
>
> You missed my point entirely. I never claimed that I produced the 'perfect'
> batard (by the way, I was 'the guy who made it' and I have never had a job
> or training in the baking industry). Instead, my point was that it is
> possible for experienced home bakers to get results that rival those of
> commercial bakers.
>
> - Steve Brandt

Steve, you are trying to emphasize that you can do as nice looking
bread ( although not up to the highest standard )as the the well made
bread from specialist bakeries) because you trained for it under a
good instructor.If you insist otherwise you are telling a tall
tale<g>.
Or you can possibly grab a bread from a bakery bring it home and place
on the board and take a picture of it and claim it as your
own<g>.Many people who do not understand the preparation of the bread
will believe you.
I have even heard of a clever bakery trainee who swapped (quickly
while nobody was looking around) their inferior looking loaf with a
purchased one to show to their instructor during the examination of
their baked product .
Luckily the instructor has a keen eye and really know the bread that
he declared it was not made by that student.
You cannot learn the skill by guessing the angle or the timing of the
baking.Somebody have to show you how to do it. And it takes time to
get accustomed to the subtle technique of proper dough slashing (and
even timing.).And you claim proudly that you can do it by yourself
easily.
No sensible ,qualified bakery craftsman and other in the bakery trade
will believe on that.

Therefore....
Tell your story to the marines!
Roy

Steve B

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 06:41:1624.06.04
an
Roy,

If you choose to call me a liar, that's fine. I don't really care.
However, it would go a long way to bolster your own credibility if you were
to post even a single photo of one of your own breads. People on this
newsgroup would then have a hard time dismissing your comments so easily.

- Steve Brandt

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

Kenneth

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 06:58:4424.06.04
an
On 23 Jun 2004 22:27:46 -0700, rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote:

>Steve, you are trying to emphasize that you can do as nice looking
>bread ( although not up to the highest standard )

Hi Roy,

Because you keep repeating comments of this sort, I will repeat my
question:

Might you tell us specifically what you are considering? That is, in
what ways do you see that this bread is not "up to the highest
standard?"

Thanks again,

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 17:19:1924.06.04
an
"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<gdyCc.105177$0y.93906@attbi_s03>...

> Roy,
>
> If you choose to call me a liar, that's fine. I don't really care.
> However, it would go a long way to bolster your own credibility if you were
> to post even a single photo of one of your own breads. People on this
> newsgroup would then have a hard time dismissing your comments so easily.
>
Steve directly I do not call you a liar but your claim is so
unbelievable.
Alright I believe you , you are the reincarnation of Thomas Edison and
have rediscovered by your own effort the way of making french bread<g>
instead of the electric bulb..
I hope you are happy now..
Regarding pictures, well I am not that shallow person to present
my achievements so that most people will believe me..
It is better for people to see me as so ordinary looking,not even a
single picture to prove my achievements and do not see anyting
spectacular. in my person.
In fact many of people who consult me for technical solutions cannot
believe if I can be capable of doing such things and if I am the
right person for such job they need to be sorted out.
But seeing what I can do to help solve a problem to a particular
bakery situation will compeletely erase their doubts.

Roy

Wcsjohn

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 17:27:0124.06.04
an
>> Roy,
>>
>> If you choose to call me a liar, that's fine. I don't really care.
>> However, it would go a long way to bolster your own credibility if you were
>> to post even a single photo of one of your own breads. People on this
>> newsgroup would then have a hard time dismissing your comments so easily.
>>
>Steve directly I do not call you a liar but your claim is so
>unbelievable.
>Alright I believe you , you are the reincarnation of Thomas Edison and
>have rediscovered by your own effort the way of making french bread<g>
>instead of the electric bulb..
>I hope you are happy now..
>Regarding pictures, well I am not that shallow person to present
>my achievements so that most people will believe me..

Roy, that's an evasion of the reasonable request to back up your accusations of
plagiarism, deception and dishonesty.

<snip>

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 17:32:1224.06.04
an
Kenneth <use...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message news:<qrcld0h6g8u4e60hh...@4ax.com>...

> On 23 Jun 2004 22:27:46 -0700, rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote:
>
> >Steve, you are trying to emphasize that you can do as nice looking
> >bread ( although not up to the highest standard )
>
> Hi Roy,
>
> Because you keep repeating comments of this sort, I will repeat my
> question:
>
> Might you tell us specifically what you are considering? That is, in
> what ways do you see that this bread is not "up to the highest
> standard?"
>
> Thanks again,

Well I say again my previous comment for that question, I can say the
bread is still not to highest standard due to the fact that my
loaf which was similar to (what steve claim to have made himself) was
mocked by the venerable french baker who had made that bread for
decades,( forty years to be exact.
Kenneth I did not know that you had a peculiar funny side<g>.
Roy,

Kenneth

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 20:26:4924.06.04
an

Hi Roy,

I will give it one (last) try...

You keep telling us that the bread is not up to some standard, but you
mention nothing about the characteristics you are evaluating.

If you know that it is not up to the "highest standard" surely you can
tell us something about the standard to which it is being compared.

All the best,

Dick Adams

ungelesen,
24.06.2004, 23:46:2424.06.04
an

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> concluded message news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com
with:

> ... seeing what I can do to help solve a problem to a particular
> bakery situation will completely erase their doubts.

Well, Roy, the particular bakery situation which exists in most
home bakeries is that there is not much bakery equipment. In
particular, the ovens are very simple, as compared to commercial
bakery ovens.

So how much can you help solve that problem? Do you have any
experience with home ovens?

I'd guess that it is more difficult to turn out a good and attractive
loaf using a home oven than it is for the commercial baker in his
well-equipped bakery.

If you would every like to try baking sourdough bread in a home
oven, some of us might be able to offer you some help.

---
DickA


Roy Basan

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 00:10:5525.06.04
an
wcs...@aol.comspamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote in message news:<20040624172701...@mb-m17.aol.com>...

John, I am not an evasive person but it is just my character to be
rather low key.
Regarding your claim or plagiarism,deception and dishonesty its you
own opinion but those things have happened actually as done by people
who are inept, insecure and have frail ego and craves for attention
from their peer.
Just think of a few bakerry trainee who want to impress their peers
and tutors will go to the extreme of showing false proof and
fabricating results and hide the defective item they have made for
the assessment of their skills.
It is just those three negative traits that you mentioned is
ubiquitous in all aspects of life including bakery trade work..
Why not its possible to happen here in this NG.
If It can happen in the profession why it would not possibly occur in
other areas of life but I do not blame anybody to be doing such but
it leaves a question h ow anybody can gain what we call already a
stage of competence in a certain work without even a professonal
training when the norm is you should learn that by instruction from
somebody qualifed in such practice.
If someone insist that he made it by his own efforts with no outside
help that raises quite a lot of eyebrows in that particular
trade.and nobody in that crowd will be inclined to believe in such
claim.
What complicates the matterr farther is if such item was made in an
advese condition( such as the different condition of the home baking)
as compared to institutional baking knowing also the fact the home
ovens are not considered as good baking instruments as the
insitutional ones.
Look you have made french stick but with all your effort did you ever
reach the same level of appearance and competence as the common
commercial specimen?

Again is somebody who is devoid of training will be able to achieve
such feat that is a miracle. But miracle do not exist.
That has been the persistent question raised by home bakers to
institutional bakers who want to try to duplicate the appearance of
the bread they see in shops..
The answer from the shop baker will likely be good traiining coupled
with dedicated practice using a good equipments .The recipe can be
the same but the result will usually different. usually when made in
different environment. and the great disparatity of competence.
And it requires consumate skill as well.And that skill can come only
from proper training. not by guesswork..
Meanwiile a pofessional baker/ still can make a better bread at
home( almost alike to the commericial items( but never an untrained
person).
because he can easily transfer the quality of his work to the home
setting.and know in detail how to adapt the situation in a different
condition..
Therefore the bottom line is if you can present a satisfactory loaf
which is similar to the commericially made one; you certainly
undergone a good training and work experience from the industry never
by sheer luck and trial and error practice.
If you still insist that you can do it without outside help you can
be some kind of a genius or possibly as claimed by New AGe groups as
the possible reincarnation of a highly competent person with a self
taught background,
And Thomas Edison is a good example. Uneducated but a genius of the
highest level. in creating things.
Roy

Ed Bechtel

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 09:55:1325.06.04
an
Kenneth and Steve,

I have been watching your dialogue with Roy in utter amazement. I swear it
comes directly from The Holy Grail.


ARTHUR (Kenneth):
Now look here, my good man--
FRENCH GUARD (Roy):
I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!
I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father
smelt of elderberries!
GALAHAD (Steve):
Is there someone else up there we could talk to?
FRENCH GUARD (Roy):
No. Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a!

Asking Roy to actually describe the holy grail of bread by constructing
sentences that have verbs, nouns, and more importantly, adverbs and adjectives,
is not working. You've been taunted by Roy several times already.


Ed Bechtel

PS - I only meant this as an humorous intermission to the regular thread.

Ed

Dick Adams

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 10:16:0025.06.04
an

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

> ... I am not an evasive person but it is just my character to be
> rather low key.

Your character seems to be to be verbose at the expense of being
informative.

> ... Regarding your claim or plagiarism, deception and dishonesty ...

I would not use such terms. There is a "B" word that says it all.

I do not know why you, and Kenneth, are so adverse to presenting
photographs to substantiate your claims and to elucidate the information
and advice you sometimes offer.

It is said that a picture is worth 1000 words. That number, to me
seems conservative.

For instance, in this vein, a picture of what you think a baguette should
look like -- even one from a magazine, text book, or web page, if so
qualified, might be helpful.

Kenneth

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 10:49:2725.06.04
an
On 25 Jun 2004 13:55:13 GMT, smoke...@aol.comnojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

Hi Ed,

Your comments brought a smile...

All the best,

Steve B

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 11:19:4925.06.04
an
Time to start catapulting the cattle? :>)

- Steve Brandt

"Ed Bechtel" <smoke...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message

news:20040625095513...@mb-m03.aol.com...

Dusty

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 11:27:4325.06.04
an
Eeeuuwwwww! Looks like I'm gonna hafta dig out my sourdough hamburger bun
recipes...(:-o)! Grinder anyone?

Dusty
San Jose, Ca.


--
Remove STORE to reply

"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:poXCc.153236$3x.98159@attbi_s54...


> Time to start catapulting the cattle? :>)
>
> - Steve Brandt

...


Ed Bechtel

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 11:36:0625.06.04
an
Run away run away!

Ed Bechtel
I gotta go camping now - back in a couple of days. Hope this post does not get
threadjacked (again) and turn into a Grail post.

Wcsjohn

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 11:45:0425.06.04
an
>>
>> Roy, that's an evasion of the reasonable request to back up your
>accusations of
>> plagiarism, deception and dishonesty.
>
>John, I am not an evasive person but it is just my character to be
>rather low key.
>Regarding your claim or plagiarism,deception and dishonesty its you
>own opinion but those things have happened actually as done by people
>who are inept, insecure and have frail ego and craves for attention
>from their peer.

The reasons for plagiarism et al. are irrelevant.

You have made an allegation of dishonesty in a public forum.

You need to back that up.

You haven't done so.

John


<snip of true but irrelevant text about dihonesty>

Ulrike Westphal

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 11:53:2725.06.04
an

"Ed Bechtel" <smoke...@aol.comnojunk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040625113606...@mb-m27.aol.com...
Have fun!!
Ulrike


Wcsjohn

ungelesen,
25.06.2004, 13:34:0425.06.04
an
And, if I'm finding this thread increasingly futile and dull, I doubt I'll be
alone so, for me, that's enough.

I have bread to bake, much more worthwhile.

John

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
26.06.2004, 00:54:0826.06.04
an
wcs...@aol.comspamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote in message news:<20040625114504...@mb-m05.aol.com>...

You are asking me to walk on the rainbow by trying to find evidence
of the doubtful origin of Steve's bread?
I am not a detective ,professional cime investigator , a cop,etc who
can grill a certain person to reveal the reason of such suspicious
origin of a certain item he claimed as his own. I cannot ask
somebody here to make the bread in from of me and repeat the results
he displayed earlier.
But
the Suspicions will remain.

Roy

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
26.06.2004, 01:32:3826.06.04
an
"Dick Adams" <bad....@nonexist.com> wrote in message news:<AsWCc.27271$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> "Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

>

> Your character seems to be to be verbose at the expense of being
> informative.

>

> I do not know why you, and Kenneth, are so adverse to presenting
> photographs to substantiate your claims and to elucidate the information
> and advice you sometimes offer.
>
> It is said that a picture is worth 1000 words. That number, to me
> seems conservative.
>
> For instance, in this vein, a picture of what you think a baguette
> should
> look like -- even one from a magazine, text book, or web page, if so

я qualified, might be helpful.
I am sorry Dick it was never my style of presenting pictures. Even my
relatives complain about this. That whenever I visit a certain country
I never send them pictures of places ,what that I like in the places I
visited, but instead do to great lengths to explain verbally the
detail of the visit.The anecdotes and incident that occurred, the
luscious food I eaten, will come profusely in words that some of the
listeners eyes will even glaze in boredom listening to my experience.
They always kept pressing me, where are the photographs. You went to
such fabulous pleces with not a shred of evidence but a spent plane
ticket and hotel reciepts?
In the same way with baking, I have seen to many good breads but I
never got interested on taking copies or photos, collecting them in a
scrapbook just like any enthusiastic bakery oriented person who loves
to remember his experience or kept models for referrence.
I do not collect pictures either nor love to show off those graphic
details that I like from personal experience.
IF I happen to present a technical report to a technical
conference,which contains graphics ( including pictures of breads) etc
that is only for that venue only.
I do not copy bread pictures from bakery literatures either; its not
my style.
I prefer to kept my experience at the back of my head as I considered
it a mental exercise and good for the brain( not to succumb to
Alzheimer related symptoms if you kept it agile by keeping it will
honed) to remember the detail how it occurred in the past.
Therefore I come and go to places , bake bread , do technical
things,experience life to the fullest; but leave nothing but dust in
my wake.
For me:
We are born naked, therefore we should die and rot with nothing in
ourselves; no pictures but cherished memories that vanish with us in
our grave.
Roy
"

Roy Basan

ungelesen,
26.06.2004, 02:07:2126.06.04
an
"Dick Adams" <bad....@nonexist.com> wrote in message news:<keNCc.131703$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> "Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> concluded message
> news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com
> with:
>
> > ... seeing what I can do to help solve a problem to a particular
> > bakery situation will completely erase their doubts.
>
> Well, Roy, the particular bakery situation which exists in most
> home bakeries is that there is not much bakery equipment. In
> particular, the ovens are very simple, as compared to commercial
> bakery ovens.
>
> So how much can you help solve that problem? Do you have any
> experience with home ovens?
I had but not much as compared to you guys as I prefer to do my
baking at work than at home..But many of these hobbyist who know me
and met me personally always ask for pointers not related to oven but
other areas of bakery related interest.
The bulk of my troubleshooting is in the institutional side and that
includes application of dough and batter chemistry to their bakery
production problems as well as equipment and formulation problems.

> I'd guess that it is more difficult to turn out a good and attractive
> loaf using a home oven than it is for the commercial baker in his
> well-equipped bakery.

You are right Dick,,,, that is why getting a professional quality
bread from home oven will always arouse suspicion .


> If you would every like to try baking sourdough bread in a home
> oven, some of us might be able to offer you some help.

Do not worry Dick if some home baker who wants to ask for some help in
that area I will refer this NG for informative information. It is
perplexing sometimes to hear a hobbyist baker who complain to me that
his or her oven is not good for his bread no matter how I tried to
explain reasonably to the person the principles of baking and oven
operation.he/ she cannot make out of my explanation and relate to the
current problem..
I am sure you guys will be more capable than me in that area.
Roy

Dick Adams

ungelesen,
26.06.2004, 07:59:0426.06.04
an

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:95b037df.04062...@posting.google.com...

> [ ... ]

> Therefore I come and go to places, bake bread, do technical
> things, experience life to the fullest; but leave nothing but dust in
> my wake.

Dust? Why is it so difficult to get it off my shoe?


"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:95b037df.0406...@posting.google.com...

> > I'd guess that it is more difficult to turn out a good and attractive
> > loaf using a home oven than it is for the commercial baker in his
> > well-equipped bakery.

> You are right Dick,,,, that is why getting a professional quality
> bread from home oven will always arouse suspicion.

That is where the photos come in. Take Samartha, for instance:
There is no doubt that he is doing what he says he is doing. But
why, exactly, is he doing it in that way? Ed demonstrated that it
is possible to make a Poilane (sic) loaf from Kenneth's simple recipe
(so why is the recipe I posted so complicated?). Elsewhere, a fake
photo could be spotted immediately by an intelligent mind.

---
DickA

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