Surely this is wrong!

[graham]

I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a
Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and
sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.

[Boron Elgar]

Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.

I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.

[graham]

I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over
the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain
that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local
Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much
sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of
the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.

[Shadow]

I thought temperature was the main factor.

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/64/7/2616.full-text.pdf

//The parameter estimates for the effect of temperature on the growth
of L. sanfranciscensis and C. milleri determined in our work are in
good agreement with literature data. Bocker et al. and Spicher
reported that strains of L. sanfranciscensis have a T opt in the range
between 30 and 37°C. C. milleri and S. exiguus do not grow at
temperatures above 35°C. The observation that L. sanfranciscensis
LTH2581 and LTH1729 and C. milleri LTH H198 exhibit the same response
to temperatures below 26°C provides an explanation for the stable
association of these organisms in a sourdough for more than 20 years.
Our data are furthermore in agreement with the "baker's rule" that low
temperatures during sourdough fermentations (20 to 26°C) are better
for yeast growth than higher temperatures.//
(references numbers removed)

Lower temperatures = more yeast (mild).
Higher temperatures = more bacteria (sour).
(within reasonable limits, of course, or I'd be eating
sulphuric acid grade sour - temp is 36C ATM)

PS The document above courtesy of Samartha's webpage.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

[graham]

Thanks!!!!! It has been a long time since I read Samartha!! Probably
when this was a really active group.

[Boron Elgar]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:56:11 -0600, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:

I think the sour tang comes as much from how the dough is
made/fermented as much as from the starter.

Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.

[Dusty]

It's probably just me not having a clue, but that statement seems odd.
In order to understand it, one needs to have a basis in % of hydration,
for what "stiff" means. And in my admittedly sparse experience across
the breadth and depth of the many ways to make sourdough bread, I've
never run across such a comparison (at least not that I recollect in
that manner).

Take care and be well all,
Dusty
--
"If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government, then
you are doomed to live under the rule of fools."--Plato

[Shadow]

Dough is really just a "big" starter. The bugs in there have
not developed tools yet to discover how big their "world" is, so they
just carry on doing what they do,

>
>Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
>and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.

A mixture of flour/water/yeast/bacteria that takes 3-4 days to
rise is probably in a cold environment. That would favor the yeast
over the "sour" bacteria. IOW, would produce a mild taste.

[Boron Elgar]

What does that indicate?

How one *creates* that final dough- the starter and any pre-ferments
and the proportions of that in the final dough as well as time/temp
variations on the dough are what can create the flavor.

>>
>>Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
>>and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.
>
> A mixture of flour/water/yeast/bacteria that takes 3-4 days to
>rise is probably in a cold environment. That would favor the yeast
>over the "sour" bacteria. IOW, would produce a mild taste.
> []'s

It doesn't,as a final dough, take 3-4 days to rise.

The final dough incorporates a series of pre-ferments which ultimately
get incorporated into the final dough.

The pre-ferments are at room temp, the final dough always spends some
time in a fridge- for how long,though,depends on many things.

I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
flours, the time and the temps.

This ain't rocket science after all these years, but I have control
over the taste of the final product.

[graham]

Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust? Yesterday, I gave a loaf
of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS. She liked the bread but found
the crust to be too thick and tough. It was a 66% hydration loaf but
judging by the dough, the flour bin at the bulk store had been
mis-labelled and was not a bread flour but softer.

[Dick Adams]

T'was said:

> I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
> over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
> flours, the time and the temps.

I cannot imagine 4 days. If I start starter refreshment this morning,
I expect to bake the day after tomorrow in the morning, or, in the
summertime, tomorrow evening.

For instance: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217949908807373&set=gm.334925257126208&type=3&theater

Gas is lost through the dough surface, more for longer rise.

Activity is easier to assess in a thicker starter, which rises,
not just bubbles.

Long rise gives more sour that oven push.

So it seems to me, for what its worth.

[Boron Elgar]

I have never tried to do that. My first thought would be softer
flour, but that does not seem to do it as you mention it. My ryes and
mixed grain breads have chewier crusts and plain white SD seems to
have a thinner one, but I have never attributed it to anything other
than the flours and whatever mix I am using. It is nothing I seek or
plan for one way or the other.

It would take experimentation in deviating from what you normally do.
You might also google a bit for what's out there online these days
about what makes a chewy crust and see if you can find any pattern
that might prevent it.

As we have spoken of in the past, freezing sometimes makes the outer
crust slough off. Though that prevents fresh-baked loaves, maybe that
is a work-around that could make the bread more palatable.

I am absolutely clueless on this.

[Boron Elgar]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 22:36:23 -0700 (PDT), Dick Adams
<Dick...@gmail.com> wrote:

>T'was said:
>
>> I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
>> over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
>> flours, the time and the temps.
>
>I cannot imagine 4 days. If I start starter refreshment this morning,
>I expect to bake the day after tomorrow in the morning, or, in the
>summertime, tomorrow evening.
>
>For instance: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217949908807373&set=gm.334925257126208&type=3&theater

Sorry, I dropped FB years ago. Wish I could see it. Can you C&P it
into a jpeg and tinypic a link?

>
>Gas is lost through the dough surface, more for longer rise.

Do not think in terms of longer rise, because that makes you think of
one dough rising for aeons. That isn't it. Think in terms of several
pre-ferment stages.. Remember the cocodrillo, with two separate
pre-ferments going at once (at least if I recall correctly)? That is a
variation on this theme. Diff flours. Diff starters. Diff timings.

>
>Activity is easier to assess in a thicker starter, which rises,
>not just bubbles.

Some of the pre-ferments will be lower hydration, some higher. Depends
on the flours I am going to use.

>
>Long rise gives more sour that oven push.
>
>So it seems to me, for what its worth.

For some loaves, I start with pre-ferment build(s), often with
different flours, sometimes incorporating one into the next, sometimes
just keeping one or two separate ones going by adding small amounts of
flour.

There is never one continuous build of one starter/flour/water over
the time frame and that itself becomes the greatest portion of the
main and final dough.

I sometimes use 2-3 different starters and that will ultimately be
mixed into one final dough, too - this is done over the course of
those several pre-ferments.

Most of this is done not to achieve tang, but to develop/deepen the
flavor of each of the flours. It isn't something I do for all breads,
either.

And long rises CAN be managed to achieve tang, but that is usually for
the final dough, and if one is careful and having "fun with chemistry"
with all the starters and pre-ferments, one can produce a loaf without
commercial yeast, without pronounced tang, but with a really complex,
deep flavor.

[Shadow]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:35:06 -0600, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust?

Oil will give you a softer bread with a thinner crust. Add
olive (or soy) oil to the recipe. You can even spray oil on the dough
before baking.

Personally I like a crunchy crust, so I use little oil and
spray the oven with water while baking (after the bread is "set" or it
might collapse).

>Yesterday, I gave a loaf of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS.

I don't think crusts affect IBS.

[graham]

On 2019-11-05 10:41 a.m., Shadow wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:35:06 -0600, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust?
>
> Oil will give you a softer bread with a thinner crust. Add
> olive (or soy) oil to the recipe. You can even spray oil on the dough
> before baking.
>
> Personally I like a crunchy crust, so I use little oil and
> spray the oven with water while baking (after the bread is "set" or it
> might collapse).
>
>> Yesterday, I gave a loaf of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS.
>
> I don't think crusts affect IBS.
> []'s
>

That wasn't the point. She is very fussy and only white SD would do. She
liked the flavour but found the crust too tough.