"Sour" taste'

[Mr Maj6th]

I am new here but would like to ask a question:


I have two sourdough starters going; one is spring water, rye, white
flour. Each flour is stone ground, and organic. The second is a
bastardized starter based on potato starch and commercial yeast. They
both froth and bubble when I feed, them, have the perfect viscosity,
and in all ways react perfectly, but neither gives a sour taste. They
both rise as expected when I make bread, with a much longer rising
time "as would be expected." I am beginning to question why I am
keeping theses starters and feeding them if neither gives me the
characteristic sour taste I am looking for, why not just use
commercial yeast to make a good tasting loaf of bread, and be done
with it. This would give an expected rise time (not so dependant on
environmental variables) and a much shorter total cooking time.

My question is; how do I get that "sour" taste? I have extensively
researched this on the web, but it seems everyone seem to have a
different opinion; if I tried them all, it would take a lifetime!.

Thanks
Maj6th

[Mr Maj6th]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:02:32 +1100, Van Bakel <ba...@bakel.invalid>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 06:10:09 -0800, Mr Maj6th <maj...@dslextreme.com>
>wrote:

>Sourness is a function of time. If you add more time to the stages of
>your sourdough making, you get a more sour tasting bread.

Please give me an example of what you mean, are you speaking about the
starter or the baking process?

Thanks
Maj6th

[graham]

"Mr Maj6th" <maj...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:5jmnb79083hafr48s...@4ax.com...

Try this:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/SF01/MakeSF01-0.html

or this:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Breads/Sourdough/index.htm

[Mr Maj6th]

Certainly one of the best links I have seen, but which step (or steps)
in this process of making sour dough contributes the most to the final
sour taste?

Thanks for the links!

Maj6th

[Mr Maj6th]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:47:40 -0800, Mr Maj6th <maj...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

It might also be that the total process itself determines the
sourness, not one particular step. If this is the case (and I suspect
it is,) which step contributes the most.

Maj6th

[graham]

"Mr Maj6th" <maj...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message

news:ifhqb7d9h4agsth19...@4ax.com...

AIUI, retarding the dough, i.e., a long, slow fermentation at a cooler temp.
I don't do this as I prefer the French style pain au levain which does not
have that obvious sourness.

[Mr Maj6th]

Thank to everyone for your help; it has been extremely insightful for
me in seeing the larger picture.

Maj6th

[Dusty]

"graham" wrote in message news:gpdvq.33982$0s1....@newsfe11.iad...

Well said, Graham. I was just about to reply to 'Maj6th' clarifying that.
While the nature of your starter, some are more sour than others; the type
and kind of flour you use, Rye makes more sour than a light-wheat AP; the
real secret to sour bread is for a long, cool final rise. Like Graham, I
prefer my SD more in the European style, not so sour. However, there is a
time and a place for some wonderful, very sour San Francisco style bread as
well.

'Maj6th', you can use my Poilâne recipe:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Breads/Sourdough/poilane.htm. Note
especially the last step on "Day 2". Put your dough in the fridge and let
it sit overnight...longer if you want it even more sour.

Please check back and let us know how things went...

Regards all,
Dusty
--
"The first freedom: The freedom to choose for yourself. Use it or lose
it!" - Me, in a thoughtful moment

[graham]

"Dusty" <Bake...@InREMOVETHISnerLodge.com> wrote in message
news:6rKdnQD1yovG5l3T...@supernews.com...

I went on a cycling holiday to France this year (Dordogne) and on the last
day I bought a 2kg miche at a recommended boulangerie. I still have a 1/4
in the freezer. Well worth the trouble to bring back to Canada as reference
material.
Graham
(Ex-Suffolk; you know where that is!)

[Mr Maj6th]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:35:32 -0700, "graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>

>"Mr Maj6th" <maj...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>news:5jmnb79083hafr48s...@4ax.com...
>>I am new here but would like to ask a question:
>>
>>

>Try this:
>http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/SF01/MakeSF01-0.html
>
>or this:
>http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Breads/Sourdough/index.htm
>

I tried the Samastha Net link; it is very informative. I am actually
in the process of baking the final loaves as I type, but I have a
question.

Since this process from the Samartha web site had me grow a sponge for
three days, starting with a very small amount of starter, and then put
it in the icebox for a period of time, why can't I just use the main
mature starter that I have been growing and refrigerating for a couple
months, I certainly have the quantity needed? Otherwise, I just throw
it down the drain? Probably a silly question, but it seems like the
same thing I've been growing!

Maj6th

[Robert Zaleski]

I've been having this same sourless problem, I think once I got something close to the taste I was looking for, but haven't been able to reproducible way. I tried a recipe posted in the last week, all rising was at 68 degrees

2c water, 2 3/4 Flour, 1/4 starter, sit overnight, maybe 8 - 11 Hours.

Added 2 3/4 c Flour, 1 tbsp salt. Kneaded well, using stretch and fold technique, let sit in the fridge one day.

Did a boule roll under , popped on a pan for a final 6-7 hour rise before cooking at 500 from a cold oven. Bread came out good, we don't normally do 500 degrees for baking so the crust burnt a bit, but it was good, just not Sour at all.

The starter was started from rye and water, I'm deathly afraid of Rye as it almost always gives the bread the wrong taste, really Salty, every time I've tried. I thought SF Sourdough is pure white bread anyways? That's what I'm after, there's a Diner in Denver that used to have what I want, but I'm a long way from there now.

Any ideas, 2-3 days in the fridge? 16-24 hour initial proof? 2 Stage proof? 10 Hour final rise?

I'm open to suggestions. At this point I'm about ready to feed the starter, throw it in a zip-lock bag, boil everything, and try a international Sourdough's SF Starter package to see if that gets me closer to the right taste.

[zxcvbob]

If I want my bread to be more sour, I use rye flour to feed the
starter. I just use high-protein white flour for the bread (except
for the rye in the starter.) If I want it less sour, I feed the
starter with white flour.

The last batch was taking too long to rise and it was going to be
ready to go in the oven at like 3:00 in the morning, so I put it in
the fridge when I went to bed to retard the rise, then took it out the
next afternoon and let it finish rising. It was a little more sour
than usual.

Perhaps I got lucky with my starter? It has always been just flour
(sometimes wheat and sometimes rye) and water. My bread is just wheat
flour, water, salt, and starter. I'm gonna start experimenting soon
with small amounts of whole wheat flour.

I just looked at your post again. That looks like a little too much
salt. Maybe back off to 2 tsp?

-Bob

[Robert Zaleski]

> If I want my bread to be more sour, I use rye flour to feed the
> starter. I just use high-protein white flour for the bread (except
> for the rye in the starter.) If I want it less sour, I feed the
> starter with white flour.

I'll research what flour options we have, and I'll look into feeding the starter some high-protien white flour for awhile and do a loaf with that. I know I've done the rye in the past and it always comes out tasting super salty, and almost always unedible, so I'm going to avoid that like the plague. Do you use a 50-50 rye to wheat for the starter, or is it 100% rye in the feeding. I'm assuming it's the typical matching water. Also, how much starter to dough are you using? I can always try splitting the starter and feeding it just rye to try a loaf, I'm sure I've got some rye sitting around still from last Spring.

> The last batch was taking too long to rise and it was going to be
> ready to go in the oven at like 3:00 in the morning, so I put it in
> the fridge when I went to bed to retard the rise, then took it out the
> next afternoon and let it finish rising. It was a little more sour
> than usual.

I've got a loaf ready to bake today or tommorrow which I let sit longer. I proofed it for 24 hours, 3 days in the Fridge, and we'll do a longer rise on it today with the flour we've been using, so we'll see how it comes out. If it's too strong I'll try a shorter proof and keep the long sit in the fridge.

> Perhaps I got lucky with my starter? It has always been just flour
> (sometimes wheat and sometimes rye) and water. My bread is just wheat
> flour, water, salt, and starter. I'm gonna start experimenting soon
> with small amounts of whole wheat flour.

Maybe, I know I'm super specific on the taste I'm looking for, so until I can get it reliably, I won't be happy.

> I just looked at your post again. That looks like a little too much
> salt. Maybe back off to 2 tsp?

Yeah, I got the amounts off a Polaine recipe that was posted a few weeks ago. I'll look at trying less salt in the dough next time too, I'll just have to watch the final rise closer to make sure it holds up as well. I was really happy how the last loaf didn't show any signs of collapse after the final rise, we'll see how this next loaf does.

> -Bob

Thanks for the post, from another Bob :)

[Boron Elgar]

There is always experimentation involved in trying to achieve the
exact degree of "sour" one wants in a bread. The starter itself may be
a factor, the build of the final dough is important (1 or 2 or 3 stage
builds, etc) , as are the type and proportion of flours, hydration,
length of proof, temperature of proof.

One achieves a starter with more "sour and rise potential" earlier
when it is begun and fed with rye, but it can also be accomplished
with time and patience and AP flour. Again, this is not the main force
that develops a sour flavor in the dough and bread. That is
process-dependent..

Boron

[zxcvbob]

Robert Zaleski wrote:
>> If I want my bread to be more sour, I use rye flour to feed the
>> starter. I just use high-protein white flour for the bread
>> (except for the rye in the starter.) If I want it less sour, I
>> feed the starter with white flour.
>
> I'll research what flour options we have, and I'll look into
> feeding the starter some high-protien white flour for awhile and do
> a loaf with that. I know I've done the rye in the past and it
> always comes out tasting super salty, and almost always unedible,
> so I'm going to avoid that like the plague. Do you use a 50-50 rye
> to wheat for the starter, or is it 100% rye in the feeding. I'm
> assuming it's the typical matching water. Also, how much starter
> to dough are you using? I can always try splitting the starter and
> feeding it just rye to try a loaf, I'm sure I've got some rye

> sitting around still from last Spring...
>

Sometimes I feed the starter with white flour, sometimes with rye. I
would say i alternate them, but it's not that organized.

To make the bread, I weigh 1 pound of bread flour into a bread machine
I bought at the Goodwill store, and I dissolve 1 tsp of salt in 1 cup
of water and add that. Then I start the machine on the "Dough" cycle.
While it is still pulsing slowly I add maybe 3/4 cup of starter,
which usually has the consistency of thick pancake batter. About an
hour later when the machine beeps, I transfer the ball of dough to a
greased Corningware casserole dish and cover it and let it rise until
the dish is full -- however long that takes, and the rise time varies
quite a bit depending on the temperature and how active the starter was.

About halfway thru the rise, I usually make 3 shallow gashes in the
top of the loaf with my pocket knife. (I've tried different kitchen
knives and even a razor blade, but the Opinel pocket knife does the
best job.) If I don't cut the top, a big flat pocket often develops
right under the top crust and causes trouble when I slice it.

I need to figure out how to adapt this for making rolls instead of a
big square loaf.

-Bob

[Will]

Greetings, haven't posted here in a long while.

Boron mentioned process down-thread, and that's about 95% of it,
assuming you have a decent culture based on whole rye or whole wheat.

Everyone has this problem until they control the final proof
correctly. That means you need to manage temperature. The sour-side of
your culture wants
80 degrees, 85 F. is better.

My solution was to build a proof box. It is a simple and cheap. I use
a low profile Rubbermaid Storage container sized to fit my baskets or
loaf pans, and an old fashioned heat pad. You may need to chip a small
port to run electric, but otherwise that's it.

I assume you run a cool bulk ferment. When you're ready for the final
proof, do it in the proof box. Monitor the temperature until you
understand the heat pad settings: shoot for 85 degrees F.

Proof a small piece of extra dough, use it as the basis for the next
bread. Learn to manage your culture's yeast/bacteria balance with
temperature.

[Giovanni Picinno]

Van Bakel wrote:

> Not the baking process. I meant to say that if you make the
> proofing/rising stages longer, you'll get a bread that's more sour.
>

Wouldn't we get the same sour effect by adding few drops (or a bit more)
of cider vinegar in a final baking dough, instead of waiting for a day or
two for the same thing when ethanol as a byproduct of fermentation gets
converted to acetic acid ? Why wait that long when we have acetic acid
by hand in every kitchen ?

Or, as someone here said she or he prefers a french type of loaf without
pronounced sourness; just add starter three or four times as much as
prescribed for a regular sourdough, so cut the time of rising and prevent
ethanol being converted into acetic acid, and have a "regular" non-sour
bread.

Please, have in mind I am not into picking fights in this newsgroup, I am
seeking answers, as to me these two are totally valid shortcuts and logical
things to do.