Sourdough with an automatic bread maker?

[Donald]

Since there has been some posts here from real sourdough enthusiasts,
I thought I'd try posting this question.

Has anyone here found a way to use an automatic breadmaker to make
sourdough bread?

I see them at thrift stores for less than $10 on almost every visit,
and some are complete with instructions and even unused!

The problem I see is the rise time of sourdough being way longer than
what can be set in a bread maker. I;m not sure how to get around that
limitation so I've always made my sourdough bread using my stand mixer
for the basic mixing and hand kneading for working the dough between
rises, then the oven for the final part of it.

If there isn't enough activity here I can try the Fresh Loaf site and
the Facebook group someone mentioned here (I joined it).

Donald

[Doc]

Go search over here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

[Shadow]

Facekook ? You must be crazy. Only kooks use Facekook.
My mother pauses her bread maker, then un-pauses it when the
sourdough rises, but I can't remember what brand she uses. All I know
it that it's very old and was expensive.
I prefer hand kneading, and I never allow the dough to rise
twice, because it loses some of it's "spring". Probably due to the
Lactobacilli eating up the gluten.
I mix, knead well, let stand an hour, shape, slash, let rise
(up to 10 hours, depends on temp) and bake.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

[Boron Elgar]

On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:17:33 -0200, Shadow <S...@dow.br> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 18:27:58 -0500, Donald
><t20...@nospam.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Since there has been some posts here from real sourdough enthusiasts,
>>I thought I'd try posting this question.
>>
>>Has anyone here found a way to use an automatic breadmaker to make
>>sourdough bread?
>>
>>I see them at thrift stores for less than $10 on almost every visit,
>>and some are complete with instructions and even unused!
>>
>>The problem I see is the rise time of sourdough being way longer than
>>what can be set in a bread maker. I;m not sure how to get around that
>>limitation so I've always made my sourdough bread using my stand mixer
>>for the basic mixing and hand kneading for working the dough between
>>rises, then the oven for the final part of it.
>>
>>If there isn't enough activity here I can try the Fresh Loaf site and
>>the Facebook group someone mentioned here (I joined it).
>
> Facekook ? You must be crazy. Only kooks use Facekook.

Actually, the sourdough and bread baking groups on FB are quite
interesting and heaven knows, much more active than this Usenet group.

As a full participant in each of these groups over quite a long time
- here, the Fresh Loaf and on the various bread groups in FB, there is
lots of info out there about many topics.

I did not weigh in on the OP's question, as I think the work-around
needed for a bread machine sourdough are not worth the effort.

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <7mevbb1jbh71p6bj1...@4ax.com>,

Donald <t20...@nospam.net.invalid> wrote:
>Since there has been some posts here from real sourdough enthusiasts,
>I thought I'd try posting this question.
>
>Has anyone here found a way to use an automatic breadmaker to make
>sourdough bread?
>
>I see them at thrift stores for less than $10 on almost every visit,
>and some are complete with instructions and even unused!
>
>The problem I see is the rise time of sourdough being way longer than
>what can be set in a bread maker. I;m not sure how to get around that
>limitation so I've always made my sourdough bread using my stand mixer
>for the basic mixing and hand kneading for working the dough between
>rises, then the oven for the final part of it.

A conventional ABM won't be enough for you - however it might be good
for the initial mixing and kneading phase, then remove for a longer
ferment, etc.

However, Panasonic recently released a new one that does have a sourdough program.

http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/home-appliances/breadmakers/sd-zb2512.html

I've no idea how good/bad/indifferent it is though, but it's a start.

Gordon

[Shadow]

Under the "French" setting, it rests for 2 hours, kneads
quickly (10 minutes), then allows to rise for another 4 hours, which
would be fine.
Funny, the "Rustic Sourdough" setting kneads much longer and
has quite a short rise.
When my Mom's burns out, I'll get her one. She's too old to
knead. 90 + arthritis etc.
A search on Amazon USA came up nihil, and it's announced as
"European". Any idea of cost ?

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <mi64cb5tr4v8mpu0v...@4ax.com>,

Not cheap:
http://www.johnlewis.com/panasonic-sd-zb2512kxc-bread-maker-stainless-steel/p2029308
and £189.95 ...

Gordon

[Shadow]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:35:06 -0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson

Thanks. But that is England only.

US$ 275. Very expensive, probably not many being manufactured,
a niche **product.
Postage and taxes would be absurd, but I could have someone
bring one out from the US.
[]'s

** Probably means spare parts will be hard to find.

PS I live in Brazil

[Dusty]

Dang! No traffic for so long...so I don't visit for a few weeks, and
the wheels fall off :)!
I know of folks that have used a bread-maker to make sourdough. But, as
others have pointed out, the tomfoolery you have to do to make it do so
is probably not worth the effort. Still, as another poster pointed out,
an aging parent (which I've learned is creeping up on me) would probably
be a good candidate for such a gadget.
Since I used to be involved in embedded systems, I had, over the years,
considered making something specifically for sourdough--both for the
culturing, as well as the mixing and making. But the thoughts and dreams
always faded as I experienced the simple joy of making my dough "by
hand". The years have left me with a simple system of steps that I use,
and I couldn't find a good reason to change that just to do so.
I too have stooped to using the FB groups. I'm probably too old to ever
learn to like using that sewer...but I do so because today I must, and
have no clue what tomorrow will bring.
Oh well. I was delighted to see some traffic in here...it would be
great if more would make an appearance.

Have fun folks--always enjoy your baking,
Dusty
--
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out whom you are not allowed
to criticize." -- Voltaire

[Lisa Lingo]

> Dang! No traffic for so long...so I don't visit for a few weeks, and
> the wheels fall off :)!
> I know of folks that have used a bread-maker to make sourdough. But, as
> others have pointed out, the tomfoolery you have to do to make it do so
> is probably not worth the effort. Still, as another poster pointed out,
> an aging parent (which I've learned is creeping up on me) would probably
> be a good candidate for such a gadget.
> Since I used to be involved in embedded systems, I had, over the years,
> considered making something specifically for sourdough--both for the
> culturing, as well as the mixing and making. But the thoughts and dreams
> always faded as I experienced the simple joy of making my dough "by
> hand". The years have left me with a simple system of steps that I use,
> and I couldn't find a good reason to change that just to do so.
> I too have stooped to using the FB groups. I'm probably too old to ever
> learn to like using that sewer...but I do so because today I must, and
> have no clue what tomorrow will bring.
> Oh well. I was delighted to see some traffic in here...it would be
> great if more would make an appearance.
>
> Have fun folks--always enjoy your baking,
> Dusty
> --
> "To learn who rules over you, simply find out whom you are not allowed
> to criticize." -- Voltaire

Dusty, is your simple system of steps, posted here or in Facebook? I could definitely use and would very much appreciate having a simple system. My poor culture is sitting in the fridge, abused and unused. :(

Thank you.
Lisa

[Unknown]

On 14-Mar-16 08:12, Lisa Lingo wrote:
>> Dang! No traffic for so long...so I don't visit for a few weeks, and
>> the wheels fall off :)!

...<snippage>...

>> The years have left me with a simple system of steps that I use,
>> and I couldn't find a good reason to change that just to do so.

...<snippage>...

>
> Dusty, is your simple system of steps, posted here or in Facebook? I could definitely use and would very much appreciate having a simple system. My poor culture is sitting in the fridge, abused and unused. :(

Sadly, my lady, I do not have it in print somewhere (at least not where
I looked on short notice). I have many such instructions, I just
couldn't find the one I used most often. Since our kids & grand-kids
have taken over the making of our bread, I've not had an occasion to use
that in some years. Done too many other, similar things in the interim
to have a clear recollection of that process. Worked out many of the
details, many, many years ago with the help of some of the folks that
used to be in this group (I think--there used to be several active
groups). But, what I will do is browse some of my older archives and
see if I can find it. And, since I'm want to 'make stuff up
as-I-go-along, I'll probably have to try it out a few times to make sure
I got the right process. :)
At the moment I'm entangled in the process of making some sourdough,
rye, cranberry-walnut bread. Still not coming out the way I want it to
(i.e. it still doesn't look & taste like the stuff I used to get from a
place that used to make it). But this time, once I "get" it, I'll be
sure to write it down in an easy-to-find place.

Take care and be well all,
Dusty
--
"Belief is the blissful twilight that those without the courage of true
convictions cling to in order to escape the sometimes harsh
understanding of reality that comes with truth." -- Dusty 2006

[edwin....@gmail.com]

I use the Kneading cycle for the first rise. Then, take out the dough, remove the paddle blade, return the dough to the machine. the set to cook. It will go thru the entire cycle; but since the paddle is removed, the knead cycle is just the spindle spinning, the dough is undisturbed. Works good.

[hutchndi]

The original poster added "If there isn't enough activity here I can try the Fresh Loaf site". I unfortunately do the same when activity slows to a crawl here, but have found that there are much less serious sourdough enthusiasts there, more like a plethora of wannabes that believe Peter Reinhart is the god of all things made from flour, and that sugar, honey, grapes, sawdust, or shredded bird cage underlayments are the best way to coax sourdough starter to bubble. You have come to the right place by visiting here, even though the postings of the true sourdough gods (who's teachings have kept my starter crock bubbling over, and my breadbox forever full) are now few and far between, there is a wealth of their knowledge that can be gleaned from archived posts or the sourdough faq. Yes, you will find your bread machine advice at the Fresh Loaf, and no doubt there will be those touting the virtues of it's use. This is actually the same type of thing I was looking for when I first found rec.food.sourdough newsgroup. Within a few short weeks I totally abandoned this path and gave my bread machine away, and am very glad I did. By the way, that 10$ you thought was such a good deal could go a long way with simple sourdough bread making, you don't really need allot of fancy toys or ingredients to make great bread for pennies a loaf. Whatever you do, happy baking!

[rosbucs]

yes I have three of them including the original 1968 Japanese version I make sourdough in them all the time. The recipes are the same for regular breads except the liquid is from the sour dough. recipesource.org is a good place to get sour dough ABM recipes.

[Donald]

Thanks!!!

For now I've chosen to stick with my Kitchen Aid stand mixer to do the
kneading and a manual process for the rest of it. This gives me the
flexibility of adjusting the time for the rise to punch-down and the
second rise in case the starter isn't as active as it should be.

The only automatic bread maker that has a long enough resting time
seems to be that expensive Panasonic one a few shared a link to here.
I'm not spending that much on something that still probably would need
some regular yeast to make thigns rise fast enough to use the
appliance to make sourdough bread. Otherwise, it looks to be a fine
machine. I almost bought a Panasonic breadmaker at a thrift store, one
much like that one but not stainless steel. But it will take up yet
more counter space that I don't have, and I already have to move some
things from our back room to the kitchen and back to use them when
they aren't used regularly.

I'll be posting my liquid starter read making process and how to make
a liquid starter from dried starter culture or a "wet dough" type.
That's the only type I"ve even used and I like how it is forgiving in
that you can switch the amounts of warm water and starter to get more
liquid starter into the bread dough and get it going faster if it's
not as active as it should be.

Donald


On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:31:10 -0800 (PST), hutchndi <hutc...@cox.net>
wrote:

[lee...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 5:27:55 PM UTC-6, Donald wrote:

did you get what you ate looking for? I need the same answers. Thanks

[Shadow]

Sourdough does not need kneading twice. Once is enough. I do
it by hand. Knead well once, allow to rise a tiny bit and then shape.
My mother, who is in her 90's uses her bread maker to knead
the dough, then pulls the plug, plugs it in after the dough rises and
chooses "bake". I have no idea what make the machine is or what the
buttons actually say. It is > 10 years old.
I sort of "noticed" the way she does it when I was visiting.
So choose a bread maker that allows you to manually set it. A
fully "auto" won't let the dough rise enough.
HTH but probably doesn't....
[]'s

[Eric Graham]

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:43:16 PM UTC-7, Shadow wrote:
> Sourdough does not need kneading twice. Once is enough. I do
> it by hand. Knead well once, allow to rise a tiny bit and then shape.
> My mother, who is in her 90's uses her bread maker to knead
> the dough, then pulls the plug, plugs it in after the dough rises and
> chooses "bake". I have no idea what make the machine is or what the
> buttons actually say. It is > 10 years old.
> I sort of "noticed" the way she does it when I was visiting.
> So choose a bread maker that allows you to manually set it. A
> fully "auto" won't let the dough rise enough.
> HTH but probably doesn't....
> []'s

I do the same thing that your mother seems to be doing, in a way. I have an automatic bread maker (the "cheapest" Cuisinart one, I think it's a CBK-100) that I use for mixing and then kneading once. It beeps when it cycles through different stages, so when it's done kneading, it beeps and gives me time to turn it off (otherwise it would start to bake). I then pull out the dough, throw it into the refrigerator overnight, and use a dutch oven to bake it the next day. Works great!

The biggest drawback is it's just so bulky that I can't keep it on the counter top.

I also have an old Kitchenaid stand mixer (bulky, but no where to hide it), but have not been able to get it to knead my sourdough dough -- I think my dough is just too hydrated and the mixer with the dough hook doesn't seem to work well at all (even with a doubled recipe).

So here's a question: how hydrated is just enough hydrated to use the stand mixer for a first (and only) knead?

[Shadow]

Sorry, I haven't visited this group in a while.

You have to go by "feel". Not sure what my hydration is. This
will probably work, you might need to add more flour for a mechanical
mixer IOW "dough does not stick to hands at all".

Different makes and even batches of flour here in Brazil vary
so much I can't do precise measurements.

My guideline is:

1500 ml liquid - I use about 400ml of starter (but less if it's
really hot) and complete the volume with lukewarm water.
160 grams sugar (so it forms a nice brown crust)
120 grams oil (makes the bread slightly softer, I use soy)

Mix flour (using a spoon) with above to a creamy consistency,
let it stand for 30 min.

Add 40 grams of salt.

Mix again with spoon, then add flour (varies) until I get a
"doesn't quite want to stick to my hands" dough. Knead for 10 minutes
or so and then put it in pans to rise. I use Teflon, so I don't have
to grease the pans. And the bread just falls out as soon as it's baked
and doesn't get soggy, i.e. nice crust.

The recipe makes about three 800 gram pan breads, three 14"
(300 gram) and three 12" (280 gram) pizza crusts.

Total just over 4000 grams of dough. I bake when the dough
leaves an indentation when I press my finger on it (doesn't spring
back). That can take anything from 4-8 hours.

Freeze the pizzas as soon as they are cold from baking (I bake
both sides).
I leave the bread overnight, then cut it in slices and freeze
that too. Makes great toast or faux-mini-pizzas.

Note, I take my starter out of the fridge 2 days before and
feed until it's really active.
The recipe lasts me about 2 months. If you want to try it,
maybe halve all the ingredients.
It's not an exact science though - too many variables.
HTH

[Eric Graham]

Hello Shadow,

Thanks very much for the detailed information! I am impressed with your method and now very much excited to try to make your pizza crust. I also very much like the idea of making a bunch of crusts, baking them, and freezing them. I wonder if my freezer is big enough...

I am in eastern Washington State, USA, where our humidity and temperature are probably not as crazy as yours, although it does seem like I always need to adjust my recipes on the fly. Perhaps it's just the nature of sourdough.

My method for making pizza crust using my sourdough is roughly this:

1 and 3/4 cup active sourdough starter (near 100% hydration)
~1.5 cup flour (can sub 1/2 cup whole wheat, masa)
2 tsp salt, 4 Tbs olive oil, 2 tsp sugar

This makes enough for 2 large doughs. This dough is definitely drier than my bread dough, which is very sticky. Note that I don't use any added water, just the wet starter. After mixing, I immediately roll out the crusts and then put them on a baking sheet with corn meal so they don't stick. I don't let them rise.

I then fire up the grill as hot as I can get it and grill one side of the crust, just sliding the dough onto the grate, popping large bubbles as they form, and turning it once or twice to get a good, even brown on the one side.

I then take the half-cooked crust off the grill and flip it onto my baking sheet again, cooked side up, take it inside and put toppings on the cooked side. I will then take the topped pizza back out and put it back on the grill, but on low heat, to brown the uncooked side and get the toppings hot (melt the cheese). This never quite cooks my toppings, so if I am using raw ingredients that I want cooked, I'll pre-cook them a bit.

Thanks again for the recipe -- it's pizza time and I'll try your recipe!

E.

[Shadow]

On Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:32:38 -0700 (PDT), Eric Graham
<erk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hello Shadow,
>
>Thanks very much for the detailed information! I am impressed with your method and now very much excited to try to make your pizza crust. I also very much like the idea of making a bunch of crusts, baking them, and freezing them. I wonder if my freezer is big enough...

Well, there's nothing radical about it. I started with a
standard recipe almost 20 years ago and adapted it... and adapted
it....

I tried olive oil, whole wheat in various proportions(even
tried rye), more or less sugar/salt and so on....

You can say I "Darwined" the bread to my environment and
taste.
Your opinion as to taste might differ.

>
>I am in eastern Washington State, USA, where our humidity and temperature are probably not as crazy as yours, although it does seem like I always need to adjust my recipes on the fly. Perhaps it's just the nature of sourdough.
>
>My method for making pizza crust using my sourdough is roughly this:
>
>1 and 3/4 cup active sourdough starter (near 100% hydration)
>~1.5 cup flour (can sub 1/2 cup whole wheat, masa)
>2 tsp salt, 4 Tbs olive oil, 2 tsp sugar
>
>This makes enough for 2 large doughs. This dough is definitely drier than my bread dough, which is very sticky. Note that I don't use any added water, just the wet starter. After mixing, I immediately roll out the crusts and then put them on a baking sheet with corn meal so they don't stick. I don't let them rise.

If I didn't let mine rise I thought they would become too
hard. Something I'd probably break a tooth on. No rise at all?
I'll try baking a no-rise. I'll make it 20 minutes before I do
the others, so I only have to pre-heat the oven once. It'll take a
while, I still have 5 whole pizza crusts in the freezer.

>
>I then fire up the grill as hot as I can get it and grill one side of the crust, just sliding the dough onto the grate, popping large bubbles as they form, and turning it once or twice to get a good, even brown on the one side.
>
>I then take the half-cooked crust off the grill and flip it onto my baking sheet again, cooked side up, take it inside and put toppings on the cooked side. I will then take the topped pizza back out and put it back on the grill, but on low heat, to brown the uncooked side and get the toppings hot (melt the cheese). This never quite cooks my toppings, so if I am using raw ingredients that I want cooked, I'll pre-cook them a bit.
>
>Thanks again for the recipe -- it's pizza time and I'll try your recipe!

Well, I hope it works out. I'd be interested to know if it
does in other climates. (Winter here ATM, 75F, a coldish day).

[Eric Graham]

On Thursday, September 5, 2019 at 12:36:21 PM UTC-7, Shadow wrote:
> If I didn't let mine rise I thought they would become too
> hard. Something I'd probably break a tooth on. No rise at all?

Because I use so much starter (the only liquid in the recipe), it doesn't really need a rise, just the time it takes to roll it out and slap it on the grill. I suspect that if I used just a little starter and then water to make the dough, then I'd be making hard, flat bricks, as you suggest...

> Well, I hope it works out. I'd be interested to know if it
> does in other climates. (Winter here ATM, 75F, a coldish day).

The end of summer here at "GMT-7", Pacific time, reaching about 80F. In the winter, though, perhaps as low as -10F or so. I envy your temperature, not necessarily the humidity (but I do miss tropical fruit so much).

I'll let you know how your recipe works out for me. Cheers to good bread!

[Shadow]

I tried your pizza recipe. Winter here (just over 100F ATM -
bit hot for the season).
Wasn't sure how much salt to use, so I guessed. Rise was OK,
but not as "sourdough" tasting as mine. I prefer it with a hint of
sour. But made 2 better than retail pizzas.
So when I'm in a hurry, I'll use your recipe. From starter
(woke it up the night before) to oven was 1 hour.
TY

[Eric Graham]

> I tried your pizza recipe. Winter here (just over 100F ATM -
> bit hot for the season).
> Wasn't sure how much salt to use, so I guessed. Rise was OK,
> but not as "sourdough" tasting as mine. I prefer it with a hint of
> sour. But made 2 better than retail pizzas.
> So when I'm in a hurry, I'll use your recipe. From starter
> (woke it up the night before) to oven was 1 hour.

Hello Shadow!

Fantastic that you got the chance to try the "quick" sourdough pizza dough recipe. I'm very glad that it worked well enough and that it may be an option when time is not on your side. Good to hear!

I have been fooling with other things lately (pounds and pounds of zucchini and pears are on my table right now) and so I have not had the chance to even inspect my poor refrigerated starter. Thanks for the reminder -- I'll wake it up and see if I can do something fun.

Happy baking!

E.

[Eric Graham]

Oh, and I just saw this, that made me laugh -- my method is not the preferred method at all! (but when in a hurry, what're the options?)

https://bit.ly/2ktNDkb

Cheers!

[dejamos]

I usually make my pizza dough at least one day before I plan to make my
pizza. In addition to better flavor (in my opinion), it cuts the time
in half between making the dough and making the pizza and makes it
easier to do during the work week.

[Shadow]

You should post the full URL ...... this is Usenet.

https://www.huffpostbrasil.com (sounds incredible - but true,
see Wikipedia) is partners with the far-right wing Abril group. All
the political articles about Brazil start with "The government said"
followed by the usual lies and never hear the "other side", which ATM
is > 60% of the population, that in a recent poll classify Bolsonaro's
government as "bad" or "terrible". It's the worst evaluation in our
history.
>
>Cheers!

As to the article, I agree, a longer rise would give more
flavor, but OTOH would defeat the fact you can make a pizza in a few
hours by your method.

[Eric Graham]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 3:24:26 PM UTC-7, Shadow wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT), Eric Graham

>

Sorry about not pasting the entire URL. Here it is for those who couldn't get there:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pizza-dough-rise-time_l_5d7299f9e4b07521022bca8f

About huffpostbrasil.com - what?? That is crazy because in the US, the Huffington Post is wonderfully left wing. I'd cynically say that it's always about money (advertising dollars) and power (ideology always takes a back seat).

It seems that the world is has moved in the wrong direction lately and I very much hope we can all learn from our current mistakes and make amends (I'm trying very hard not to get political on a sourdough site, so that's it from me!).

Good luck, don't despair, keep baking?

[Donald]

Eric . . .

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 07:38:24 -0700 (PDT), Eric Graham
<erk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>I also have an old Kitchenaid stand mixer (bulky, but no where to hide it), but have not been able to get it to knead my sourdough dough -- I think my dough is just too hydrated and the mixer with the dough hook doesn't seem to work well at all (even with a doubled recipe).

When I use my Kitchen Aid stand mixer it works well for kneading. But
I use a different process than most here do. I use a liquid starter
and it's added, with warm water, to the dry ingredients much like a
traditional bread recipe. I don't use a dough based starter.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------


Join the Icom group, a general Icom (amateur radio) discussion
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[bkevi...@gmail.com]

I use mine only to mix and kneed the dough. It has a "dough" setting.
Bread machine manuals are readily available on the internet


BKE