Getting Sour Flavor

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Edrosch

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Oct 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/22/00
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Hi,

I've been working with Sourdough Unlimited San Francisco starter. It has been
giving me fantastic results, but as other posters have noted, a mild sour
flavor. I tried an experiment yesterday and wanted to ask for comments.

I figured that Yogurt also is sour, so that if I added live culture Yogurt and
milk (to give the cultures something to chew on) to the dough and let it
ferment, I'd get more sour flavor.

I made my basic recipe which is 5 c King Arthur Special for bread machine
flour, salt, 1 1/2 c warm water, 1 c. first proof sponge, and added 1/2 c dry
milk powder to the water to disolve, and 8 oz. of Yogurt t ( all I could find
was flavored, so I used maple nut- I usually add a touch of honey, but left it
out as the Yogurt had plenty of sugar).

I kneaded it up in my kitchenaid, and adjusted the flour until I had my usual
slack but barely workable dough. Then I let it rise for about six hours,
formed the loaves, let them rise for another hour and a half and then baked
(500 deg preheat, about 2c water into cast iron on lower rack, oven reduced to
425 for 10 min, then to 375 until about 200 deg internal temp).

I was quite pleased with the results, it had a distinctly more sour flavor, and
a very nice light texture.

BTW- the rising dough smelled wonderful.

I was wondering if anyone else has tried this and could suggest some
refinements. While I'm interested in experimenting with other cultures, at the
moment I like what the SF is doing for me, and would like to figure out how to
perk up the sour without having to deal with mixing and blending other cultures
into it.

Thanks,

Ed Rosch

Bob

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Oct 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/22/00
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Hi Ed,
You might want to consider retarding your shaped loaves overnight.
This will increase sourness and flavor and give you a nice, rustic,
blistered crust. Reduce your fermentation somewhat to compensate for
the long period in the frig (when some slight fermentation activity
still occurs). Sounds like you have a good grasp of the procedures,
though, personally, I would avoid additives (honey, etc.) until I
really perfected my baking technique. I think they just complicate
the already almost infinite world of variables simply using flour,
water, salt, and starter. Good luck.
Bob


In article <20001022074007...@ng-fj1.news.cs.com>,

--
Bob


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Before you buy.

Edrosch

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Oct 22, 2000, 8:27:22 PM10/22/00
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Refering to myself, of course....

>You might want to consider retarding your shaped loaves overnight.

I'm not familiar with that technique, could you please amplify?

>I would avoid additives (honey, etc.) until I
>really perfected my baking technique.

I got into sourdough because I just moved from the Bay Area to Michigan and
**really** missed the sourdough bread. They sell it in all the supermarkets
there, and here what passes for sourdough both costs almost $5 a loaf and the
less said about the better. The SF loaves have an elusive taste that I've
identified as honey and since I've started putting a touch in my loaves here
have a very satisfactory subsitute.

Ed

Bob

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Oct 22, 2000, 10:02:40 PM10/22/00
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In article <20001022202722...@ng-bd1.news.cs.com>,

edr...@cs.com (Edrosch) wrote:
> >You might want to consider retarding your shaped loaves overnight.
>
> I'm not familiar with that technique, could you please amplify?

Retarding simply means putting your loaves into cold storage, the
refrigerator, for awhile. This allows you to bake at a later date,
early in the morning if you wish, and it affords the microorganisms in
your dough a long, slow time to work, developing a tastier and more
sour bread. If you retard overnight (12-15 hours) you should adjust
your proofing time down somewhat. Try subtracting an hour to begin
with. When you remove the loaves from the frig let them "warm up" to
the point where they are the same in look and feel as if you have
proofed them normally. My warm-ups go from 30 minutes to an hour.
Then slash and bake.


The SF loaves have an elusive taste that I've
> identified as honey and since I've started putting a touch in my
loaves here have a very satisfactory subsitute.

The SF loaves do indeed have an elusive taste. It's still eluding me!
But that wonderful taste, if we're talking about the same bread, is not
due to honey. The best SF sourdoughs are made with flour, water, salt,
and leavening (natural starter) -- period! That said, if you like your
bread with honey, go for it. There are no rules in bread making.
Terms and definitions should be agreed upon, rules no. Good luck.

Edrosch

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Oct 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/23/00
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>
>Retarding simply means putting your loaves into cold storage, the
>refrigerator, for awhile.

To make sure I understand- I make up my dough using the first proof and let
it go the normal time of rising (in my case, about 6 hours), I then make my
loaves, let them proof for about an hour less than normal. Then, I put them in
the refrig overnight, the next day I take them out, allow them to warm up- then
slash and bake normally.

A question:

Should I cover them with with plastic wrap to keep them from drying out? Or is
there someother way to assure that they don't get those leather hides?

>The SF loaves do indeed have an elusive taste. It's still eluding me!
>But that wonderful taste, if we're talking about the same bread, is not
>due to honey.

It may not be, but honey does a credible job of simulating it! Try it- not
much, about 1-2 tablespoons in a 5 cup recipe- below the threshhold where it's
obviously honey, but enough to add the subtle taste that you can't quite put
your finger on. The yeast seem to like it too! I was in the Bay Area for 15
years and probably averaged 2 loaves of (bought) sourdough a week- it was my
favorite bread by far.

Most of what was in the stores was Colombo bread, though there were a couple of
other bakeries that distributed in my area.

Ed

Bob

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Oct 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/23/00
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Yes, you've understood correctly, and, yes, put your loaves in a
plastic bag when you place them in the frig or they will dry out. You
want to end up with loaves (when ready for the oven) that will be in
the same state you would normally bring them to. Good luck.
Bob


In article <20001023084322...@ng-fj1.news.cs.com>,


edr...@cs.com (Edrosch) wrote:
> >
> >Retarding simply means putting your loaves into cold storage, the
> >refrigerator, for awhile.
>

> To make sure I understand- I make up my dough using the first proof
and let
> it go the normal time of rising (in my case, about 6 hours), I then
make my
> loaves, let them proof for about an hour less than normal. Then, I
put them in
> the refrig overnight, the next day I take them out, allow them to
warm up- then
> slash and bake normally.
>
> A question:
>
> Should I cover them with with plastic wrap to keep them from drying
out? Or is
> there someother way to assure that they don't get those leather hides?
>

> >The SF loaves do indeed have an elusive taste. It's still eluding
me!
> >But that wonderful taste, if we're talking about the same bread, is
not
> >due to honey.
>

> It may not be, but honey does a credible job of simulating it! Try
it- not
> much, about 1-2 tablespoons in a 5 cup recipe- below the threshhold
where it's
> obviously honey, but enough to add the subtle taste that you can't
quite put
> your finger on. The yeast seem to like it too! I was in the Bay
Area for 15
> years and probably averaged 2 loaves of (bought) sourdough a week- it
was my
> favorite bread by far.
>
> Most of what was in the stores was Colombo bread, though there were a
couple of
> other bakeries that distributed in my area.
>
> Ed
>

--

Rhonda Kirschmann

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Oct 27, 2000, 8:07:07 AM10/27/00
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Hey Ed and Bob,

I've been reading through a bunch of 'recipes' for starters. Those for
'true' starters (flour and water or flour and milk) that don't use yeast
from a jar and those that do, potato starters, potato water starters,
potatoe flake starters. You name it, it's either in my recipe databases or
on the web to either confuse or offer an interesting read...

But to guide this back to point, I read that when you add flour and water
to replace used starter that the sourness will stay the same or deminish.
On the other hand, if you add milk and flour to replace used starter, the
sourness will increase. The recipe that said this recommended alternating
between water/flour and milk/flour additions to the starter.

I can't officially offer this as a suggestion, as I have never done this.

--Just food for thought and/or discussion,
Rhonda.

Bob wrote:

> Hi Ed,


> You might want to consider retarding your shaped loaves overnight.

> This will increase sourness and flavor and give you a nice, rustic,
> blistered crust. Reduce your fermentation somewhat to compensate for
> the long period in the frig (when some slight fermentation activity
> still occurs). Sounds like you have a good grasp of the procedures,
> though, personally, I would avoid additives (honey, etc.) until I
> really perfected my baking technique. I think they just complicate
> the already almost infinite world of variables simply using flour,

> water, salt, and starter. Good luck.
> Bob
>

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