Whole-wheat or rye sourdough bread

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Nov 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/28/00
Hi folks;

I am new to the bread-making. I successfully baked my first few loaves
of whole-wheat and light rye breads, but now I am really interested
in sourdough

I was able to produce a good started and baked my first bread -
unfortunately, white.

I am desperately looking for a recipe that would have only whole-wheat
and rye flours, the more rye the better, and so far was not able to
find any good rye recipes (that don't have ANY bread foulr)

Please, help

Any recipes and suggestions would be appreciated. Ultimately, I am
looking for any recipe of Russian black breads, since I am from
St. Petersburg, but live in Boston area now

Thanks a lot

Alla Gribov

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


Nov 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/28/00
Sorry, I forgot to mention, that I need a bread machine recipe :-((

Thanks again


In article <900igg$rj6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Mike Avery

Nov 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/28/00
In article <900ir0$rnm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, al...@sergey.com says...

> Sorry, I forgot to mention, that I need a bread machine recipe :-((

It will be interesting to see if anyone has a bread machine recipe that
fills the bill. I hate to discourage you....

Sourdough can help replace gluten in some cases, but most bread recipes
have some white flour, or some wheat gluten in them.

As you move towards sourdough, whole wheat, and rye, things get harder
for most bread machines. Beatrice Ojakangas has some really nice all rye
recipes in her "Great Whole Grain Breads" cookbook, but most of then
require several days to make - soaking, fermenting, and so on. (Her book
is out of print, but available in many libraries, either off the shelves
or through inter-library loans.) A bread machine just can't cope with
that. It wasn't designed to do so. Bread machines were designed to work
in a narrow range of dough densities (or hydration), with a narrow range
of gluten, with a narrow range of yeast, and in a narrow range of time.
You can control the amount of flour, water, yeast, and sugar.... but you
have to adjust those to make the bread machine happy. And that may not
match the bread type you want to make. Forget vollkorn brot, for
example. I've made some nice pumpernickel breads in a bread machine, but
they weren't really authentic.

On the brighter side of the news, I've found that the time savings of a
bread machine are largely an illusion. It takes about 5 minutes of work
to produce a loaf of bread in one. Making bread by hand takes about 25
minutes of effort, but you have more control, and you get more than one
loaf out of the deal.

If you're undeterred, several books talk about how to make sourdough in a
bread machine. And all of the ways of doing it are a lot of trouble.
Some people use a cup or so of starter to add flavor, but add bakers
yeast to make the bread rise, which gets you out of the time constraints
to some extent, but you don't have a real sourdough (at least, not
according to a purist... and while I love all kinds of bread, I don't
like putting bakers yeast into a sourdough bread....). Another approach
captializes on the idea that it should take about 2 1/2 hours for the
bread to do it's final rise with sourdough. So, the idea is to get a
good starter going, and then put the ingredients into the bread machine
and use the dough setting. When the machine beeps, reach in and pull out
the agitator and start a regular bread cycle. The idea is this will give
the sourdough enough time to rise. You pull the agitator (paddle) out
because that will cause the dough to collapse. I still have doubts that
would work with an all rye bread.

Here's Ms. Ojakangas' recipe for a 100 percent rye bread, which is not a
sourdough recipe, but could be converted fairly easily... start with a
rye starter, and then use about 2 cups of active starter, eliminate the
yeast, and reduce the flour by a cup or so. (Note... I haven't tried her
recipe, or converted it to sourdough.... if you try it, please tell me
how it turns out, either converted or not.)

Because rye flour is a low-gluten flour, breads made purely from rye
floyr require special handling. The long rising period develops a
somewhat sour flavor and also serves to encourage the small amount of
gluten in the rye flour. Extra yeast is also necessary for rising. This
bread bakes into a compact, rather heavy, but delicious loaf that is
excellent when sliced extra thin. Bake it a day before slicing it.

Makes 1 large loaf

1/2 cup whole grain rye
2 cups water
2 packages active dry yeast
1 cup warm water, 105F - 115F
1/2 cup dark corn syrup
5 to 5 1/2 cups dark rye flour
2 tsp salt

Wash and pick over the whole grain rye. Put into blender and whirl until
grain is coarsely cracked. Place in saucepan and add water; bring to a
boil, then simmer 45 minutes or until the grain is tender to the bite.
Drain, cook to 105 - 115F. In a large mixing bowl, dissolve yeast in
warm water (or substitute sourdough starter). Add corn syrup, let stand
5 minutes until yeast foams (not if you're using sourdough starter...
just mix and keep on going). Stir in the cooled, cooked rye. Add two
cups of the rye flour; beat until smooth; cover and let rise 30 minutes.
Sprinkle salt over the mixture and stir in 3 more cups of flour (perhaps
a cup less if you are using sourdough) until the mixture is stiff. Cover
and let rise in a warm place for 2 1/2 to 3 hours. Sprinkle board with
additional rye flour and turn dough out into it. The dough will be
sticy. With well floured hands, shape the dough into an oblong loaf
about 7 x 11 inches. Pat outside of loaf generously with flour.
Generously grease a baking sheet and transfer loaf to sheet. COver with
plastic wrap and let rise until doubled. Preheat oven to 350F, and bake
for 30 to 35 minutes; loaf will not brown much, but top will appear
cracked. Remove from pan and cool on rack.

Darrell Greenwood

Nov 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/28/00
to al...@sergey.com
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <900igg$rj6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <al...@sergey.com> wrote:

> I am desperately looking for a recipe that would have only whole-wheat
> and rye flours, the more rye the better, and so far was not able to
> find any good rye recipes (that don't have ANY bread foulr)

This recipe "requires little work and no kneading at all" according to
Katrine. You may wish to try it.

It used to be one could just refer you to Deja for this recipe for
Danish Rugbroed. But since Deja have hidden all their pre-May/99
archives one can't do that. So on the grounds that others may be
interested, and also this will give me an operating URL for this
recipe, here is Katrine Kirk's Rugbroed recipe.




RUGBROED: Danish rye bread

The virtues of rugbroed are many. The taste & texture are wonderful.
It's cheap and simple to make (although you must allow for some trial &
error). It's extremely healthy - very low fat, very fibrous, and very
good for your digestive system. It's the one thing I missed the most
when I lived in the States for a year and didn't have an oven.
Delicious! What more can I say? Except that I'm biased, of course.

The following recipe was given to me by my aunt Fro. It's a "modern"
version of the ancient staple food of Denmark: Rugbroed (=Ryebread).
Traditionally, rugbroed was made only from sourdough, rye flour and
water, and the process involved a lot of hard work with kneading. My
grandmother still makes rugbroed that way, and the results are deli-
cious, but very different from the recipe below.

This bread is very easy to make, in that it requires little work and no
kneading at all. The finished bread is extremely heavy, very dark
brown, and keeps well for about a week at room temperature. It's not
very sour, but has a "dense" flavour that compliments good cheese su-
perbly. We eat it with all kinds of toppings, and rugbroed is the on-
ly appropriate bread to have with pickled herrings or pate or cold- cut
meats in this country. Rugbroed is very similar to German Schwarz- brot
(not pumpernickel), also a pure rye bread.

Making rugbroed is quite different from making any other kind of bread.
You can't rely on your intuitions about texture or baking times. I've
tried to make careful notes during my own baking process to assist
first-time rugbroed bakers, but you should be prepared to attempt this
a couple of times before giving up. The "difficult" element is getting
the baking time and - temperature right, and no two ovens are the same.
(After moving to a new apartment this sum- mer, I had to make rugbroed
4 times before I got it "right" again, simply because I had switched
from an electric oven to a gas oven.)

If you haven't already got a sourdough starter, you need to allocate a
week or so from you start till you are actually eating rugbroed. With a
starter on hand it will take three days. (But I think it's worth it.)

Note: I'm including metric measures. I know they don't correspond
exactly to the Amercian units, but if you follow all the metric units
consistently, the proportions will be correct.

I'm unsure about some of the ingredients. If you can't find malt beer,
use any dark beer (NOT Budweiser) or even just water and some malt
powder. When I say "cracked rye" I mean rye kernels that are not whole,
but chopped up into about 3-4 pieces on average. You could use whole
rye kernels/berries, but then you must allow for at least 8 hours
rising time before baking (to sof- ten the kernels). "Rye flour" in the
recipe is a rather coarsely ground 100% rye flour - with little bits of
grain clearly visible in it. "Graham flour" is 100 % wheat with the
texture of corn meal; it's probably called something else in other
countries. You could omit it and just use rye flour in its place. The
same goes for the cracked wheat (wheat grains chopped coarsely) -
replace with cracked rye. But I must say that the presence of a little
wheat considerably improves the flavour of the bread.


Fro's rugbroed - recipe for one 2-quart size loaf

day 1 Make the sourdough (5 minutes work)
day 5 Make the sponge (15 minutes work)
day 6 Make the dough (10 minutes work)
... 3 - 9 hours to rise...
Bake the bread (5 minutes work)
... 2 hours to bake ...
Cover (2 minutes work)
day 7 Begin to eat.

I find it's not a problem to find time to do all this if
I make the sponge on an afternoon or in the evening, make
the dough next morning before going to work, and bake it
in the early evening.

Sourdough starter:

1 cup buttermilk (2 1/2 dl)
1/2 cup rye flour (1 1/4 dl)
1/2 tsp salt

Mix buttermilk, rye flour and salt in a bowl,
leave to stand uncovered on the counter. (The
amounts are approximate - the mixture should
be quite fluid. Add more buttermilk or water
if the starter thickens too much.) You can also
use a good plain yoghurt instead of buttermilk,
but add some water if you do.

Stir the starter with a spoon at least once a
day. Keep it loosely covered with paper or foil
from the second day. Don't refrigerate.

From the second or third day, you should see little
air bubbles forming in the starter, and it will pro-
bably have a more grayish colour than it did at first.
It should begin to smell slightly sour, but the smell
disappears upon stirring.

Usually the starter takes about 5 days to make. It's
ready when it has swollen somewhat in volume and the
air bubbles are plentiful after resting for 6 hours
or so. The quality of the starter is not terribly
crucial; rugbroed doesn't (and shouldn't) rise very
much during baking, especially not the no-knead type.
With the many grains and very little flour, a high
yeast activity would produce a much to crumbly result.

If mold forms on the starter just scrape it off. It's
not of a dangerous kind. (So sayeth Fro, my all-purpose
reference cookbook and my bread cookbook.) If you can
remember to do it, discard a little of the sourdough
and feed it with water and rye flour a couple of times
per month. Make sure it is fairly thick, though, to in-
hibit yeast activity and make it less vulnerable to
forgetfulness (I'm guessing here, but my thick sourdough
starters seem to survive well for long periods in the

If you are using an old starter for making this bread,
it's a good idea to take it out of the refrigerator a
day before making the sponge. Stir it up with water or
buttermilk to a wet dough and let it rest covered at
room temperature. This will revive the yeast activity
and give you a better rise in the final bread. It's also
possible to use a near-dead sourdough starter and add
a little commercial yeast to the dough (cheating is al-
lowed.) However, this will introduce commercial yeast
to your subsequent batches of dough. Beer yeast is a-
nother possibility.

If you don't plan to use a freshly made starter im-
mmediately, cover tightly and refrigerate. It keeps for
about a week. If you want to keep it longer, feed it
with rye flour to make a somewhat thicker dough. That
will keep for several weeks.

Making the sponge:

sourdough starter (all of it, min. 1/2 cup) (1 - 2 dl)
3 cups lukewarm water (7.5 dl)
3/4 cup packed "graham flour" = coarse wheat flour (125 gr.)
3/4 cup packed all purpose flour (125 gr.)
1/2 cup flax seeds (75 gr.)
1/2 cup plain raw sunflower seeds (75 gr.)
1 cup cracked rye grains (175 gr.)
1 1/4 cup cracked wheat grains (200 gr.)
2 tsp. kosher or sea salt (if tablesalt, use less) (2 tsp)

Note: when making this a second time, omit salt,
since it has already been sprinkled on your starter.

Mix all ingreadients together in a large bowl, cover with wet towel,
and let stand at warm room temperature until next day. (At least 12
hours, but up to 36 hours is fine. Sourness increases with standing,
but won't be very predominant in the final result anyway.) Dampen towel
when dry to prevent moisture loss from the sponge - which could affect
the final result.

(The sponge is very thin and liquid when just mixed, but will quickly
become quite thick from the grains absorbing liquid.)

Making the dough:

1 cup malt beer (or water + 1 tbsp. malt powder) (2.5 dl)
1 tbsp. packed brown sugar (or dark syrup) (15 ml.)
1 tsp. ground caraway seeds (optional) (5 ml.)
3 cups cracked rye grains (500 gr.)

Stir all ingredients together with the starter and pour into a greased
loaf pan that will hold 2 quarts (2 liters). If you think you'd like to
make this bread again, save 1 cup of dough to use as a starter next
time. Put this in a jar, sprinkle with 2 tsp. coarse salt, cover
tightly and refrigerate. The dough should be wet and just barely
liquid, like a very thick porridge.

Let the bread rise in the loaf pan, covered with a damp towel, for at
least 3 hours, or even the whole day, at room temperature. (Warmer if
you take the shorter rising time.) The longer the proof, the more sour
the taste. This recipe is not very sour in itself (not as much as
Schwarzbrot, for instance).

The bread won't rise very much, perhaps only an inch or so.

Paint the top of the bread with melted butter or cold water. Put it in
a cold oven and set the temperature at 390 F (200 C). >From the time
the oven is warm, the baking time is about 90 minutes. If the top looks
like it's blackening, cover with tin foil.

It's very difficult to tell when the bread is done. Take it out of the
loaf pan and give it a knock on the bottom with your fist. If it
doesn't resonate hollowly, it certainly isn't done. If it sounds
hollow, insert a bamboo skewer into the mid- dle. If the tip comes out
clean, it's _probably_ done. The crust should feel quite hard. If in
doubt, leave the bread in the oven as the oven cools.

Don't attempt to slice the bread for at least 10 hours after baking.
It's actually best 2 or 3 days old.

Place the bread on a rack and cover with a towel (unless you are
leaving it in the oven). Leave it till next day.

Slice rugbroed very thinly (1/4th inch, 0.5 - 0.75 cm) and serve with
butter and/or cheese.

>From the day after it's baked, store rugbroed in a bread box or
plastic bag at cool room temperature. It freezes quite well, but tends
to become a little crumbly after thawing. Rugbroed stays fresh for
about a week.

If you have problems:

If the bread seems very wet inside upon slicing, try putting it back in
the oven to be warmed through at a fairly low temperature. I think
about 1/2 hour at 100 C / 210 F would be appropriate. Even a perfectly
baked loaf will be a little sticky the day after it's baked, but it
improves over another day or two. If the crust stays extremely hard on
the second day, try lowering the oven tem- perature a little and
extending baking time the next time you attempt. Much depends on the
shape of your loaf pan (wide & flat or short & tall make a world of
difference) and on the actual moistness of the dough. I can only
recommend that you make careful notes about what you are doing so you
know what to adjust a second or third time.

If you like the _taste_ of the bread, but not its crust or wetness the
first time, please try making it again. It really is a learning

And if you happen to _really_ like this recipe, I think it would be fun
if you sent my aunt a postcard. She has no idea what Internet is, but
does understand English. (She doesn't even know I've published her
recipe here.) Her address is:

Fro Galskov
Praestemosevej 24
DK-3480 Fredensborg

Thanks to Bill (aa...@po.cwru.edu) and Barnaby (bar...@world.std.com)
for help in figuring out how to "internationalise" my ingredients.


There are two basically different approaches to making rye bread. You
can either make a traditional regular dough that needs kneading, or a
rather thick porridge using whole grains that are left to set via water
absorption. The following recipe is of the kneaded sort.

The sourdough we use for rye bread is made from buttermilk and rye
flour left uncovered for a day or two, then loosely covered and stirred
regularly for another 3-5 days until it smells right. 3/4 cup is enough
for a large loaf.

Use water, sourdough, salt and rye flour. Replace some of the water
with dark beer for better flavor, or add some malt. Make a dough that
is somewhat wetter than for white bread, and let it rest a good half
hour or more. On my grand- mothers advice:

1/2 to 1 cup rye sourdough
1/2 to 1 Tbsp. sea salt (or Kosher salt)
3 cups lukewarm water

Stir these together until well mixed. Add the following:

1 1/2 pound rye flour (a fairly coarse grind)

(For those who don't mind wheat: replace slightly under 1/2 pound of
the rye with regular all-purpose flour. This will produce a chewier
bread with a slightly lighter texture.)

Hold back a little of the rye to see if you need it all. You might need
more. Rye flour takes longer to absorb water than wheat flour, and that
is why it needs to seem "wet" just after mixing. Leave it in a large,
flat bowl to rest (to prevent "oozing"). Then knead the dough on your
countertop or in the bowl by punching the middle thin and folding the
sides over the middle repeatedly. My grandmother does this for about 10
minutes, and the dough becomes smoother and more elastic as she works
it. Don't expect it to achieve the texture of of white bread dough. If
you are using pure rye flour the texture will be somewhat like wet

Save a 3/4 cup lump of dough at this stage, if you plan to make the
bread again. Put in a jar with a tight-fitting lid, sprinkle salt on
top, and refrigerate for up to a month.

Shape the dough into an elongated loaf and press it into a well-greased
2 to 2 1/4 quart loaf tin. (If using anything smaller the baking times
below will be off.) Run a wet hand over the top, cover with a damp
towel, and leave to rise to near double size, typically 4-6 hours, in a
warm place.

Run a wet hand over the top of the bread again before placing in heated
oven. Bake at a much lower temperature than you would for wheat. 1/2
hour at 200 C followed by 1 1/2 hour at 175 Celsius is probably about
right. A bamboo skewer inserted into the middle should come out free of
large bits of dough, but slightly sticky to the touch. Take it out of
the oven, sprinkle a little cold water on the crust if it seems very
hard, and leave to cool on a rack covered by a slightly damp towel.

This traditional bread is supposed to be a little sticky on the inside
when it is freshly baked. It is also supposed to be sliced very thinly,
revealing a thick, dark crust (which frankly is a little hard on your
teeth) and a moist brown bread with many, many little airbubbles. It
should taste dis- tinctly sour.

This bread is best at least a day after it is baked. It will keep for a
week or so. Slice it 1/2 centimeter or 1/5 inch thick, butter lightly,
and make open-face sandwiches. The following toppings are traditional
in Denmark:


liver pate, garnished with cucumber, pickled cucumbers or pickled beets

pork fat, liver pate, aspic, thinly sliced salt meat, raw onion rings,
and cress or water cress. For this fancy sandwich, the liver pate is
warmed a little first.

Salami, with "remoulade" (a yellow mayonnaise-based sauce with capers &
pickles)and crisp fried onion bits or fresh onion rings,

Hot mustard, cold ham and mayonnaise stirred with peas & carrot bits
(frozen), garnish with a little tomato and/or cress or mustard sprouts.

Cold sliced "frikadeller" (fried meat balls) with red cabbage slaw (red
cabbage boiled with vinegar, apple, sugar and red currant juice, served
hot or cold).

A lettuce leaf with hardboiled eggs, mayonnaise and prawns. Dill or

Pickled herrings in all kinds of sauces (don't even THINK about eating
pickled herrings on white bread. ;-) Urgh!) White herrings are served
with slices of onion, kapers, and perhaps half a hardboiled egg on the

Kids often eat rye bread spread with butter and topped with slices of
banana. (Or Nutella or chocolate thins!)

And of course, it almost goes without saying: cheese, cheese, cheese.

Back to baking... If you have problems, I can only suggest that you try
again. In other words, experiment, take notes of what you do, and
change baking times, temperatures, or wetness of dough next time if you
aren't satisfied. Good luck doesn't hurt either. Best wishes...

Katrine Kirk
email: k...@cbs.dk

P.S. Like I said in the other recipe for Danish rye bread, I think it
would tremendous fun if you have success with the recipe to send it's
creator a postcard. My grandmother would be thrilled. She originally
came from the Faroe Islands in the 1930'ies, taking this recipe with
her. I don't know where it originated, but she received it from her
older sister with a lump of sourdough before my grandmother set sail
for Denmark. Her ad- dress is as follows:

Brynhild Kirk
Peder Gydes Vej 57
6700 Esbjerg

No obligations, of course. :)

To reply, remove .invalid in address, i.e., darrell_greenwood at mindlink.net

Leo Bueno

Nov 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/29/00
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:55:55 -0700, mav...@mail.otherwhen.com (Mike
Avery) wrote:

>As you move towards sourdough, whole wheat, and rye, things get harder
>for most bread machines. Beatrice Ojakangas has some really nice all rye
>recipes in her "Great Whole Grain Breads" cookbook, but most of then
>require several days to make - soaking, fermenting, and so on. (Her book
>is out of print, but available in many libraries, either off the shelves
>or through inter-library loans.) A bread machine just can't cope with
>that. It wasn't designed to do so. Bread machines were designed to work
>in a narrow range of dough densities (or hydration), with a narrow range
>of gluten, with a narrow range of yeast, and in a narrow range of time.
>You can control the amount of flour, water, yeast, and sugar.... but you
>have to adjust those to make the bread machine happy.

Mike, don't be so harsh on bread machines.

As long as you have a "dough" and a "bake" cycle on the machine, you
have COMPLETE CONTROL of those functions.

The "dough" cycle only kneads. The "bake" cycle only bakes.

One does not have to follow the pre-set complete baking cycles.

You can knead and re-knead as much or as little as you want and as
many times as you want, as long as you can turn the "dough" cycle on
and off. Ditto for baking time. The idea is that YOU, not the
machine, get to decide how much kneading and baking to do.

Here is an example of how I do it, with complete control.

1. Add ingredients.
2. Knead ("dough" cycle).
3. Stop kneading whenever dough looks smooth enough, so won't
overknead (turn machine off or pull plug out of the wall, that ought
to do the same thing).
4. Knead again if necessary as many times as you want.
5. Pull plug out of outlet (don't like to leave electric appliances
plugged; irrational fear of their catching fire).
6. Let dough rise.
7. Punch-down by hand by pulling dough out of the machine and making
into a ball and compacting (also throw it up in the air and catch it
just for fun; looks cool if friends/family are watching).
8. While dough out of machine, pull the blade out (blade stem will
make a much smaller hole than the blade at the bottom of the loaf).
9. Put dough back in machine.
10. Let dough rise.
11. Repeat steps 7 through 10 as many times as you want.
12. Bake.
13. Bake again if you want additional bake time.

Leo Bueno leob...@usa.net 305-669-5260
P.O. Box 440545 Miami FL 33144-0545 U.S.A.
Castro Fall Poll - http://home.earthlink.net/~leobueno/adiosfidel.html
Cuba Books - http://home.earthlink.net/~leobueno/cubabooks.html
Examen de Cubania - http://home.earthlink.net/~leobueno/cubanidad.html


Nov 29, 2000, 10:09:26 PM11/29/00

Rye flour doesn't have any gluten of it's own, does it? I think to
make a good rye, you have to either have a bread flour and maybe even
add gluten...

Here's my ABM Rye Bread Recipe. I use it when I have to feed my
starter, but don't have time to make bread and don't want to chuck so
much starter...


German Sourdough Rye Bread *rlk tested*
By: Rhonda Kirschmann


3/4 cup milk

3/4 cup rye flour

1 tsp yeast


1/2 cup water

1 egg

1 1/2 tbsp vegetable oil

1 1/2 tbsp barley malt syrup or molasses

1 1/2 tsp salt

2 cups bread flour

1 cup rye flour

1 1/2 tsp yeast (Optional)

1/2 cup cracked rye berries; (put in
coffee mill)
1/2 cup whole rye berries; boiled &
soaked till soft

By "rlk tested" I mean, that I tested this with my own starter, not
the starter in this recipe...

Directions for yeast starter: Sprinkle yeast over warm water and stir
until dissolved then stir in the rye flour. Cover and let stand at
room temperature for 3 days, stirring once a day. Use the entire
starter in your bread recipe to follow:

In the alternative to this starter, use 1 cup of your own starter. My

starter is pretty wet. If you maintain a dry starter, then you'll
need some liquid. I trust that if you maintain dry starter, you know
how to make one cup of wet starter...)

Note that the additional commercial yeast is optional, if you are
cooking the bread outside of the machine, using your own starter and
it gives a good enough rise. If you want to finish the bread in the
machine, you should use the additional yeast, or maybe check SDI's
instructions/aged starters for making authentic sourdough with a bread

Put ingredients (including starter) into bread machine, except the
cracked and softened whole rye berries. Put machine on dough cycle and
'start'. When the beeper sounds to add ingredients, add the cracked
and softened whole rye berries.

The dough will be thick and sticky when you remove it from the
machine. Add a small bit of rye flour or cornmeal and form it into a

Prepare the Dutch Oven or Cloche by spraying it with oil, lining it
with parchment and sprinkling the parchment with fine ground white
cornmeal. Place the dough in the prepared Dutch Oven. Spritz the dough
with water and cover with the lid. Allow it time to rise. The dough
will double in size and look foamy/frothy. Be carefull not to let it

Place the Dutch Oven with lid on in a stove that has been pre-heated
to 200 degrees. Increase the oven temperature to 350 and let it cook
for one hour. Turn the oven off, and leave the Dutch oven in the stove
for another 2 hours, or even overnight, so the bread comes to room
temperature as slowly as possible.

This will make a 1 1/2 lb. loaf.

If I run out of molasses, I use Kero Maple syrip instead..

Yield: 3 servings
Prep Time:

On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:20:56 GMT, al...@sergey.com wrote:

>Hi folks;
>I am new to the bread-making. I successfully baked my first few loaves
>of whole-wheat and light rye breads, but now I am really interested
>in sourdough
>I was able to produce a good started and baked my first bread -
>unfortunately, white.

>I am desperately looking for a recipe that would have only whole-wheat
>and rye flours, the more rye the better, and so far was not able to
>find any good rye recipes (that don't have ANY bread foulr)


Nov 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/30/00

"Rhonda" <rho...@pinn.net> wrote in message

> Hey,
> Rye flour doesn't have any gluten of it's own, does it? I think to
> make a good rye, you have to either have a bread flour and maybe even
> add gluten...

Rye does have gluten of it's own. It is stickier than wheat gluten and more
difficult to work with. That's why many rye recipes add wheat flour.
However, one can make 100% rye flour breads and in cold damp places, this is
the traditional bread.


Mike Avery

Nov 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/30/00
In article <3a25c421...@news.pinn.net>, rho...@pinn.net says...

> Hey,
> Rye flour doesn't have any gluten of it's own, does it? I think to
> make a good rye, you have to either have a bread flour and maybe even
> add gluten...

Rye does have gluten, but only a small fraction of what is in wheat

As to needing wheat flour to make a good rye bread, no, you don't. If
you look at Europe, you see the northern countries tend to make all rye
breads. As you move south, more wheat is added, until in the southern
part of Europe, all-wheat tends to be the norm. This comes from what
grains grow there and tradition.

An all rye bread needs special handling - Darrel posted a very
interesting pair of recipes from Denmark - and tends to be heavy compared
to a wheat or part wheat bread. However, that is part of their style and


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