History of Quatre-Epices
Brian Mailman
blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
Thanks!
B/
Arri London
You could try here:
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Obviously anything from Wikipedia must be taken with a grain of salt :P
Brian Mailman
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
>> blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
>> what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
>> say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
>> some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
>>
>> What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
>> Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
>> brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> B/
>
> You could try here:
> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that is.
If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not be useful
for me.
> http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice (the
Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what quatre-epices is
(the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know the composition (and
variations). And I know how it's used--what I'm looking for
specifically are the historic usage and in particular in Provence
country/farm cookery.
> Obviously anything from Wikipedia must be taken with a grain of salt :P
Heh, as they say. Yah, I use Wikipedia for info sources, but I don't
take it as authoritive.
B/
Arri London
Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> >
> > Brian Mailman wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
> >> blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
> >> what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
> >> say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
> >> some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
> >>
> >> What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
> >> Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
> >> brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> B/
> >
> > You could try here:
> > http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
> > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
>
> both "Le titre de la page demand�e est invalide" -- not found that is.
> If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not be useful
> for me.
Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the 'e'
of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
>
> > http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
>
> Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice (the
> Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what quatre-epices is
> (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know the composition (and
> variations). And I know how it's used--what I'm looking for
> specifically are the historic usage and in particular in Provence
> country/farm cookery.
There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
otherwise wouldn't have given the link. What about 'Larousse
Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere, so not helpful right now.
Brian Mailman
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>> You could try here:
>>> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
>>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
>>
>> both "Le titre de la page demandée est invalide" -- not found that
>> is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
>> be useful for me.
>
>
> Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
> 'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
someone looking for more about spices in general.
>>> http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
>>>
>> Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
>> (the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
>> quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
>> the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
>> I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
>> particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
>
> There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
> otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
revelant to my quest? Thanks.
> What about 'Larousse Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere,
> so not helpful right now.
No, just the note it's in usage, and that every vendor makes a different
one.
B/
Arri London
Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> >
> > Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> >>> You could try here:
> >>> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
> >>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
> >>
> >> both "Le titre de la page demand�e est invalide" -- not found that
> >> is. If those are the equivalent of the Anglaise pages, they'll not
> >> be useful for me.
> >
> >
> > Didn't read the English pages so can't help you there. Thinking the
> > 'e' of epice(s) got knocked off somehow. Sorry if it was my doing.
>
> Doing some searching around after a e-without-accent didn't work... the
> first is pretty much the English page; the second one is helpful to
> someone looking for more about spices in general.
>
> >>> http://www.lesepicesrient.fr/12/2008/melange-depices-5-parfums-origine-composition-utilisation/
> >>>
> >> Thanks, but that one seems more concerned with the usage of 5-spice
> >> (the Chinese blend) and composition. As I said, I know what
> >> quatre-epices is (the 4-spice blend used in French cuisine), I know
> >> the composition (and variations). And I know how it's used--what
> >> I'm looking for specifically are the historic usage and in
> >> particular in Provence country/farm cookery.
> >
> > There were other references to quatre-epices buried in the site,
> > otherwise wouldn't have given the link.
>
> What references, where? If you could cut and paste the text you're
> referring to, I'd appreciate it. I only see descriptions, compositions,
> utilizations, as the caption says--the origine is limited to a mention
> of China and Vietnam. There seems to be some commentary about the
> replacement of Sichuan pepper with black pepper, but there's nothing
> like what I'm looking for. I admit that while I read French, I might
> not be as influenza as some! So if you could point to the part that's
> revelant to my quest? Thanks.
>
Nah, you're on your own now :) I did my bit.
> > What about 'Larousse Gastronomique'? My copy is in a box somewhere,
> > so not helpful right now.
>
> No, just the note it's in usage, and that every vendor makes a different
> one.
>
> B/
You'd really need to look at some French books on historic cuisine.
Don't think you'd find what you want in English.
Dragonblaze
I found something like it in Le Menagier de Paris: "ginger, cinnamon,
clove and long pepper..." This Medieval MSS is from 1393 and an
English translation can be found here:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html
Scroll down to the recipe of Meat Tiles to see this combination.
Brian Mailman
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>> Arri London wrote:
>> >
>> > Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>> >>> You could try here:
>> >>> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
>> >>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
>> >>
Yeah, I understood the "I know but you don't and I'm really not
interested in sharing the knowledge" bit. Is why I asked you for a
specific text relevant to my question and not just telling me what I
already know.
But thanks, I'm sure those pages will be helpful to *someone,* so not a
total waste.
B/
Brian Mailman
> On Jan 27, 9:36 pm, Brian Mailman <bmail...@sfo.invalid> wrote:
>> I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four spice
>> What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
>> Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
>> brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
>
> I found something like it in Le Menagier de Paris: "ginger, cinnamon,
> clove and long pepper..." This Medieval MSS is from 1393 and an
> English translation can be found here:
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html
>
> Scroll down to the recipe of Meat Tiles to see this combination.
Great, fascinating schtuff. It seems the Ashkenazi (European-descended)
Jewish kugel is very old indeed... similar in a very high degree to the
"cretonne" descrbied. Unfortunately, nothing like what I'm looking for,
which is whether or not quatre-epices is used in *traditional* Provencal
farmhouse cookery.
Thanks for suggesting it, though.
B/
Arri London
Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> >
> > Brian Mailman wrote:
> >>
> >> Arri London wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Brian Mailman wrote:
> >>
> >> >>> You could try here:
> >> >>> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/quatre-%25C3%25A9pices and here:
> >> >>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25C3%2589pice and maybe here:
> >> >>
> >> >> both "Le titre de la page demand�e est invalide" -- not found that
Not here to do your work for you. When I have a research topic, I do my
own work. As should you.
>
> But thanks, I'm sure those pages will be helpful to *someone,* so not a
> total waste.
>
> B/
They are useful to you as well, if you take a good look.
Brian Mailman
(massive snip).
Thanks for all the help you've provided. I'm sure you haven't intended
to come across as a fella with his pants on the ground.
B/
Arri London
ROTFL! With an attitude like that, no one is ever going to answer your
questions again.
jasminesolis
'Brian Mailman[_1_ Wrote:
> ;1432084']I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four
Well,i didn't know it.But i know something about Chinese tea and tea
history.
take tieh kuanyin tea for example:Anxi Tieguanyin tea belongs to a
family of teas from southern Fujian Province called Ming Nan Oolong.
It is characterized by light oxidation and heavy rolling. Using the
baorou technique, it is wrapped in cloths and rolled into tightly
knitted balls.
These balls are so dense that they are often described as iron-like. It
has a glossy appearance, with granulated green color, red spots and
white frost.
It has a unique taste called Guanyin Rhyme (Yin Yun), which can be
described as outstanding orchid fragrance and nectar sweet taste.
Scientists found that the Tieguanyin tea plant's succulent leaves
contain the highest level of aromatic substances, especially at low to
medium temperature.
For those who have difficulty grasping the subtleties of high grade
greens, this oolong tea may seem "god-sent". Its orchid aroma is strong,
lasting and after many infusions, simply intoxicating
--
jasminesolis
Brian Mailman
> 'Brian Mailman[_1_ Wrote:
>> ;1432084']I'm looking for a history of the French "quatre-epices" (four
>> spice
>> blend, usually pepper, cinnamon, clove, and allspice or ginger). I know
>>
>> what it is. I know what it's used for. I know the variations (some
>> say it's half pepper and half the others, some say it's equal parts,
>> some say white pepper, some say black, some say a mixture).
>>
>> What I'm looking for specifically if it's "indigenous" to farmhouse
>> Provence. It would seem from the composition it's a coastal thingum,
>> brought by Arab traders, but I'm looking for more inland.
>>
>> Thanks!
> Well,i didn't know it.But i know something about Chinese tea and tea
> history.
That's nice. You should read the 3rd in the "Master Li" series by Barry
Hughart.
But to get back to the topic of *this* thread, it doesn't matter any
more. I went ahead and used it in the savory dish I was researching,
and again in the cognac-soaked raisins I served with the walnut tart.
B/