Leavening Agents
Barbara Dowling
Native Americans would have used in bread production. I know the here
in Arizona some of the Nations used lungwort lichen. They would steep
it in water over night and use the water the next morning in their bread
making. Although the bread was not as risen as today's bread is, it was
not a flat bread either. The lungwort lichen water had wild yeast in
it. I am looking for similar sources from other parts of the country.
I am also trying to reproduce what we know as Baking Powder. This was a
product created in the mid 1800s and not available before. It is made
of both the product of wood ash and baking soda. I can get the wood
ash. BUT what is baking soda? I would assume it is a alkaline base
substance but unsure. The wood ash would be the acid side but would is
the other? If anyone has any idea I would appreciate it. I am trying
to recreate bean flour bread.
Thanks for the help
Barbara Dowling
St Trinian
Andrew Grant
<bad...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
Wood ash (potash) is alkaline and, depending how it has been treated, is
usually potassium carbonate. It may also be potassium bicarbonate. As
used in early times it was probably a mixture of both. Baking soda today
is sodium bicarbonate and it is also alkaline. You may see references to
saleratus in older writings. At one time this was a naturally occuring
form of potassium bicarbonate, but the name has also been applied to
sodium bicarbonate so the specific reference will depend on year and
location among other things.
For "baking powder" you would use either baking soda or potash as a
source of carbon dioxide plus an acid component such as buttermilk or sour
milk or, in more recent times, cream of tartar. The early forms of
commercial baking powder were baking soda and cream of tartar (potassium
acid tartrate), with one early manufacturer (Royal, I think) using both
cream of tartar and tartaric acid, touted as "a double acting" powder.
--
My email address in the header is altered to avoid junk mail. If you wish to contact me by email substitute "water.waterw" for "nospam"
Andy Grant
ASmith1946
> Wood ash (potash) is alkaline and, depending how it has been treated, is
>usually potassium carbonate. It may also be potassium bicarbonate. As
>used in early times it was probably a mixture of both. Baking soda today
>is sodium bicarbonate and it is also alkaline. You may see references to
>saleratus in older writings. At one time this was a naturally occuring
>form of potassium bicarbonate, but the name has also been applied to
>sodium bicarbonate so the specific reference will depend on year and
>location among other things.
> For "baking powder" you would use either baking soda or potash as a
>source of carbon dioxide plus an acid component such as buttermilk or sour
>milk or, in more recent times, cream of tartar. The early forms of
>commercial baking powder were baking soda and cream of tartar (potassium
>acid tartrate), with one early manufacturer (Royal, I think) using both
>cream of tartar and tartaric acid, touted as "a double acting" powder.
>--
>My email address in the header is altered to avoid junk mail. If you wish to
>contact me by email substitute "water.waterw" for "nospam"
This is extremely helpful . What is pearlash (potasium bicarbonate???) and why
was it used?
Andy Smith
Barbara Dowling
This gave me more of what I was looking for.
> Wood ash (potash) is alkaline and, depending how it has been treated, is
> usually potassium carbonate. It may also be potassium bicarbonate. As
> used in early times it was probably a mixture of both. Baking soda today
> is sodium bicarbonate and it is also alkaline. You may see references to
> saleratus in older writings. At one time this was a naturally occuring
> form of potassium bicarbonate, but the name has also been applied to
> sodium bicarbonate so the specific reference will depend on year and
> location among other things.
What is saleratus? A lichen? A plant? Never heard of it before. This may give me another lead for investigation. I have a botanist and a
chemist friend of mine helping me on this endeavor and I will let you know how our experiment goes. Have the bean flour and all the other
ingrediance but need to develop a leavening agent that was used pre-Columbian times.
> For "baking powder" you would use either baking soda or potash as a
> source of carbon dioxide plus an acid component such as buttermilk or sour
> milk or, in more recent times, cream of tartar. The early forms of
> commercial baking powder were baking soda and cream of tartar (potassium
> acid tartrate), with one early manufacturer (Royal, I think) using both
> cream of tartar and tartaric acid, touted as "a double acting" powder.
What is cream of tartar? I would assume the tartaric acid is something from cream of tartar. Milk as we know it was not used pre-Columbian
but hickory milk was used as a cream substance. I wonder if a vinegar could be used as a souring agent with the hickory ash?
Thanks again for the info. Real informative.
Barbara Dowling
Andrew Grant
<bad...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>What is saleratus?
Saleratus originally referred to a mineral deposit. As I noted in the
first reply it later came to be a general name for bicarbonates from any
source.
>What is cream of tartar?
Cream of tartar is obtained as a by-product from wine-making. It is
potassium acid tartrate and it is deposited on the sides and bottoms of
tanks when grape juice is being stored or processed. Wild grapes in this
country such as muscadines have a very high tartrate content in their
skins - that's what makes the skins so mouth puckeringly sour.
I wonder if a vinegar could be used as a souring agent with the hickory ash?
Virtually any acid, including vinegar, could be used to liberate carbon
dioxide from the bicarbonates.
--
My email address in the header is altered to avoid junk mail. If you wish to contact me by email substitute "water.waterw" for "nospam"
Andy Grant
Andrew Grant
asmit...@aol.com (ASmith1946) wrote:
>This is extremely helpful . What is pearlash (potasium bicarbonate???) and why
>was it used?
Pearl ash is the name given to a refined form of potash. Chemically
it is potassium carbonate. It could be used for leavening but would not
be as efficient as the bicarbonate salt (less carbon dioxide)
S Martin
Texquite: A pumice like substance, found in the rocky heights of northern
New Mexico. It is ground (or place in plastic bag, press with heavy object)
soaked, strained and liquid used as leavening in baking cookies or cakes.
May be bought in stores specializing in herbs. In Santa Fe, New Mexico you
will find it at Del Lujan's store 220 Galisteo St - Formerly Roybals General
Merchandise.
This information came out of:
"New Mexican Dishes" by Philomena Romero
Copyright 1970 by Philomena Romero
New Mexican Dishes
Box 167
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87544
Barbara Dowling wrote in message <365A290F...@azstarnet.com>...
>I am on a hunt to reproduce leavening agents that the colonials and
>Native Americans would have used in bread production. I know the here
>in Arizona some of the Nations used lungwort lichen. They would steep
>it in water over night and use the water the next morning in their bread
>making. Although the bread was not as risen as today's bread is, it was
>not a flat bread either. The lungwort lichen water had wild yeast in
>it. I am looking for similar sources from other parts of the country.
>
>I am also trying to reproduce what we know as Baking Powder. This was a
>product created in the mid 1800s and not available before. It is made
>of both the product of wood ash and baking soda. I can get the wood
>ash. BUT what is baking soda? I would assume it is a alkaline base
>substance but unsure. The wood ash would be the acid side but would is
>the other? If anyone has any idea I would appreciate it. I am trying
>to recreate bean flour bread.
>
jim comer
But yeast doesn't make corn bread rise, unless the cornbread contains
wheat (white) flour also. Cornbread today is raised with eggs and milk,
but contains wheat flour almost all the time. Descriptions of natives
making bread usually say that they mixed meal and water and set it to bake
on the ashes- no rising time mentioned. Sophie Coe mentions leavening by
beating in air, but short of something mechanical like this, I can't see
what you are asking.
I have a question: Masa (corn dough for tortillas, etc) is corn that is
soaked, ground, cooked, and made into dough. The nonmaize small grains
used in native cooking (amaranth, chenopodium, etc) - were and are they
treated the same way? Is masa sometimes made from a mixture of maize and
amaranth or chenopodium (huauzontle)?? If it is not, how were the images
of the gods made from amaranth dough? The question is interesting
because in the Eastern US, maize is a latecomer: it is widely grown only
after 900 AD, after a native plant called sumpweed had been a staple for a
long time. Sumpweed is processed by boiling, threshing and winnowing, and
so would then be suitable for making masa.
Hope all is well,
J. Comer
Opinicus
> But yeast doesn't make corn bread rise, unless the cornbread contains
>wheat (white) flour also. Cornbread today is raised with eggs and milk,
This is going to seem like a really dumb question to some of the people on
this NG but I have to ask it anyhow:
Was wheat cultivated in the New World before the arrival of the Europeans in
1492?
Bob
Istanbul
---
Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/5309/>
Barbara Dowling
The First Nations used wild oats, rye, beans, potatoes, other roots and seeds to
make flour with. Any and all could and were used to use on their own or mixed
with cornmeal. Some of the flours were high in gluten and would help in bread
making. Remember that breads even of our colonial ancestor's didn't rise like
breads of today. Meaning they were not tortillas either.
Barbara Dowling
Opinicus
Barbara Dowling wrote in message <3665A518...@azstarnet.com>...
>No its not a dumb question. But the answer is No! Wheat is a European
import.
>The First Nations used wild oats, rye, beans, potatoes, other roots and
seeds to
>make flour with. Any and all could and were used to use on their own or
mixed
Well then there is something of a problem. The latest research indicates
that einkorn wheat was domesticated in what is now southeastern Turkey a bit
less than 10,000 years ago. ("DNA fingerprinting of wild progenitors points
to the Karacá Dag mountains of South-East Turkey as the site of Einkorn
wheat domestication" by Manfred Heun, Ralf Schäfer-Pregl, Dieter Klawan,
Renato Castagna , Monica Accerbi, Basilio Borghi, Francesco Salamini,
_Science_, possibly Oct or Nov 1997)
This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
there without knowledge of agriculture. Yet people were undeniably growing
crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
Bob
Istanbul
---
To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/5309/>
ASmith1946
>[snip] The latest research indicates
>that einkorn wheat was domesticated in what is now southeastern Turkey a bit
>less than 10,000 years ago. [snip]
>This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
>is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
>which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
>the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
>years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
>there without knowledge of agriculture. Yet people were undeniably growing
>crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
>only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
>they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
>seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
>now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
>ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
>of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
>perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
>
Best evidence is that agriculture was independently invented in different
locations: Southwest Asia [aka Fertile Crescent]; China; Mesoamerica; the Andes
of South America and possibly the adjacent Amazon Basin as well; and the
eastern United States. The independent invention of agriculture in these
loactions is not disputed. In addition to these five areas where food
production definitely arose independently, four others are also candidates for
that distinction: Africa's Sahel, tropical West Africa, Ethiopia and New
Guinea.
Several reasons have been suggested as to why the independent invention of
agriculture occurred. The best theory is that humans simply became extremely
efficient hunters and almost simultaneously wiped out all large mammals. With
this source of food gone, humans did what was necessary to survive. There is
little evidence that peoples gave up hunter/gathering life styles by choice.
Hunter/gathering required less time and effort than early agriculture, was a
much better diet, etc.
A good book that discusses new DNA findings (and reinterpretations of 14Carbon
dates) is Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human
Societies" (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1997). In addition to its summary
of tons of new data it is one of the better books that I've read in the past
few years.
The date of arrival of the first humans into the Americas is hotly disputed,
but the majority of estimates range from a low of 13,000 BCE to 33,000 BCE. DNA
tests indiacte that it was not just a single wave, but that it occured at
several different times by different groups.
Andy Smith
Alf Christophersen
>This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
>is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
>which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
>the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
Maybe it could be of interest that there are researchers who mean that
"Garden of Eden" is not a beatiful garden, but derived from "Gann Edin",
a word that mean uncultured wilderness.
So, when Adam and Eve was kicked out of the Garden of Eden, it could
rather mean that they gained knowledge on how to culture the earth,
start of the neolithic era.
Andrew Grant
<tig...@doruk-net.tr> wrote:
>This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
>is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
>which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
>the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
>years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
>there without knowledge of agriculture. Yet people were undeniably growing
>crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
>only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
>they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
>seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
>now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
>ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
>of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
>perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
Agriculture was "invented" independently in several places including
the Americas. Maize may have been cultivated in what is now Panama as
early as 7700 years ago. Other plants cultivated in the Americas included
squash, sunflowers and, of course, beans. Rice was cultivated in Asia
possibly as early as 11,000 years ago. Read the article in the November
20, 1998 edition of "Science" page 1446. Wheat, however was not grown in
America in pre-columbian times.
Barbara Dowling
established along the coast of now southern Peru dating to about 12000 years
ago. This provided evidence to people sailing small boats along the coasts as
well as migration through the frozen Bering Straits. The mode of movement would
allow more rapid advancements of peoples into the Americas than by foot. The
studies were headed by David E. Keefer of the US Geological Survey and Daniel H.
Sandweiss of the University of Maine. The settlements existed slightly earlier
than the Clovis Culture of big game hunters in North America.
As to where wheat came from, I was stating it was not indigenous to the
Americas. And since the Europeans were the ones to rediscover the Americas, it
was they who brought wheat with them. I did not mean or intend to mean the
Europeans were the one who originally cultivated wheat.
My research in the Americas and solely the Americas. I have to study ancient
foods of the world as the world foods have been absorbed into the American food
processing for hundreds of years. I am looking for pre-Columbian food
processing methods.
Great dialog anyway. Keep it up. Makes ones mind work and create new ideas and
directions of thought.
Barbara Dowling
Opinicus wrote:
> Barbara Dowling wrote in message <3665A518...@azstarnet.com>...
> >No its not a dumb question. But the answer is No! Wheat is a European
> import.
> >The First Nations used wild oats, rye, beans, potatoes, other roots and
> seeds to
> >make flour with. Any and all could and were used to use on their own or
> mixed
>
> Well then there is something of a problem. The latest research indicates
> that einkorn wheat was domesticated in what is now southeastern Turkey a bit
> less than 10,000 years ago. ("DNA fingerprinting of wild progenitors points
> to the Karacá Dag mountains of South-East Turkey as the site of Einkorn
> wheat domestication" by Manfred Heun, Ralf Schäfer-Pregl, Dieter Klawan,
> Renato Castagna , Monica Accerbi, Basilio Borghi, Francesco Salamini,
> _Science_, possibly Oct or Nov 1997)
>
> This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
> is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
> which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
> the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
> years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
> there without knowledge of agriculture. Yet people were undeniably growing
> crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
> only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
> they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
> seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
> now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
> ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
> of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
> perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
>
> Bob
> Istanbul
>
> ---
> To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
> Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/5309/>
>
> >Opinicus wrote:
> >> This is going to seem like a really dumb question to some of the people
> on
> >> this NG but I have to ask it anyhow:
> >> Was wheat cultivated in the New World before the arrival of the Europeans
> in
> >> 1492?
WVanhou237
>Yet people were undeniably growing
>crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
>only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
>they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
>seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
>now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
>ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
>of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
>perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
>
Look a bit closer at the archaeological evidence of the developement of
agriculture in the Americas. I can think of no case where it started more
than 4000 BP. Wherever you find it , It starts with a hunter-gatherer culture
with local conditions that supply grain/fruit that lends itself to storage and
a need for storage because of seasonal shortages. Once a certain crop is
established as a good candidate it is indeed used as you said. Then it
radiates to the surrounding areas and new strains of that crop are found
to fit slightly different environments. The spread of Maize from a central
location is a perfect example. The spread of maize was dictated by how
fast it could be adapted to more arid a/o shorter growing seasons. A good
example is the timeline where the Colorado Plateau people went from H/G
Basketmakers to Anasazi to Pueblo people.
You might consider also climatic changes in the Americas. Very few places
had a climate either warm enough or not too arid for agriculture to begin
untill about 5000 BP. The east coast of the U S did not get warm enough
to change from evergreen to decidious trees untill about three thousand
years ago.
As to the "act of faith", the first method was to search out and take control
of the plots where the desired plants grew best. Then to figure out why they
did. Then to reproduce that same condition in another place.
Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
Nothing that is politicaly Right can be Moraly wrong.------ Th. Jefferson
Sharon Palmer
>
> This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
> is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
> which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
> the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
> years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
> there without knowledge of agriculture.
I can't quote a source on this, but I read something that said
that selectively planting better varieties likely goes back
much farther than actual agriculture.
He suggested that people living a hunter gatherer lifestyle
would spread the seed for a desirable variety in convenient
places, but not really farm it. This would select for larger
seeds, etc. Agriculture came when the population density
became high enough that you needed to stay close to your
patch of whatever so someone else didn't get it first.
It makes a lot of sense, but I don't know how strong the
evidence is.
--
Sharon Palmer The WOSU Stations
palm...@osu.edu Support Public Broadcasting
jim comer
Okay: we have evidence of non-maize breads from the First Nations (a
fine name). But North America didn't have the potato (it is Peruvian).
You mention oats, but oat gluten simply dissolves- oatcakes are flat as a
board. Beans? Beans do not contain gluten and beanflour bread doesn't
rise. Rye-or some wild grass that resembles it? Rye has a small amount of
gluten, but rye breads are always heavy and dense even when they are
mostly wheat flour. And was enough of any of these grains available
*throughout the year* to keep yeast alive for breadbaking? Yeast was not
sold dried in packets till he modern period: when Thoreau's yeast died, he
had to buy more or do without. Considering that *North American* First
Nations, as opposed to Mexico/Peru, had virtually no alcoholc beverages
(none at all in Ohio, where I am working on the topic), I have a hard time
believing that precontact natives had yeast in North America.
Barbara, what is your source for saying that they did?
Thanks,everyone who's posted!
Jim Comer
ASmith1946
oats and rye are both Old World. Were there also New World varieties? If so,
I'd really like a source for this.
Second, while there is no evidence for raised breads in the New World prior to
the arrival of Europeans, flat breads were common, and did not require gluten
or yeast.
Third, is not yeast everywhere? While high concentrations are necessary for
cooking, can it not be developed over time virtually out of thin air?
Fourth, don't know specifically about alcoholic beverages in pre-Columbian
Ohio, but it would be surprising if low-level alcoholic beverages were not
available. The natural by-product of fermentation is alcohol. If foods with
high carbohydrate or sugar content are emersed in water, a fermented beverage
results. Fermented beverages were a part of other pre-Columbian New World
cuisines, such as chi cha in South America and pulque in Mexico. Why would the
Ohio Native Americans, who are presumably settled in communities, be without
fermented beverages?
Fifth, although potatoes originated in South America, they were widely
dispersed before the arrival of Columbus. However, I know or no evidence
indicating that wild potatoes were used as a food source in pre-Columbian
Central or North America. Does anyone have any contrary information?
Andy Smith
jim comer
Barbara mentioned oats and rye: my assumption was that she meant wild
species resembling them, perhaps including little barley or Lyme grass.
And wild yeasts do exist: else alcohol, raised bread and such would not
exist. But raised bread requires not only yeast but gluten in the bread
grain. Wheat has lots of gluten, rye a little, barley and oats almost
none, and maize none at all. Unleavened bread, such as ashcake and
tortillas, were staples before Europeans came. But Barbara's statements
about raised bread I have not seen any support for.
Potatoes did not exist in North America before European contact. There
are wild relatives of the potato out West, but hardly enough for more than
an occasional snack. What is the source for potato flour and potato bread
in pre-Columbian America, Barbara? Sophie Coe doesn't mention them and
denies that the Incas knew of maize bread or even of nixtamalization.
How was potato flour made in Peru? I have read of baked and boiled
potatoes as well as chuno, but no mention of bread.
Harold Driver's Indians of North America lists no alcoholic beverages
in Ohio, and frontier histories such as Zeisberger's narrative mention
none. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.
Hope all is well,
Jim Comer
It is my understanding that
> oats and rye are both Old World.
Barbara Dowling
Thanks for the reply. To your question or statement about the various resources
used for flour I did forget to mention nuts. Acorn to be exact. Also yes there
were tuber used for flour. Potatoes. One wild potato ws the Hedysarum Alpinum, a
Alaska native. So the potato we know today may be a hybrid from the potato from
Peru it was not the only tuber potato used by the First Nation. Also First
Nations is a term that many indigenous people prefer.
As to your question about the lichen I will search my reference resources to tell
which specific one it was. I have been doing research for over several years now
and I have a lot to sort though but will do it as I need that specific source
anyway.
As for beer making, here is some.
Acer saccharum Marsh.; Aceraceae, Iroquois Food (Beverage). Sap made into sugar
and used to make beer. Source: Rousseau, Jacques 1945 Le Folklore Botanique De
Caughnawaga. Contributions de l'Institut botanique l'Universite de Montreal
55:7-72
Diospyros virginiana L. Simmon; Ebenaceae, Rappahannock Food (Beverage): Fruits
rolled in corn meal, brewed in water, drained, baked and mixed with hot water to
make a beer. Source: Speck, Frank G., R.B. Hassrick and E.S. Carpenter 1942
Rappahannock Herbals, Folk-Lore and Science of Cures. Proceedings of the Delaware
County Institute of Science 10:7-55.
Hope this helps. Again I will let you know the source of the lichen lungwort as
soon as I can find it in my stuff.
Barbara Dowling
jim comer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Okay: we have evidence of non-maize breads from the First Nations (a
> fine name). But North America didn't have the potato (it is Peruvian).
> You mention oats, but oat gluten simply dissolves- oatcakes are flat as a
> board. Beans? Beans do not contain gluten and beanflour bread doesn't
> rise. Rye-or some wild grass that resembles it? Rye has a small amount of
> gluten, but rye breads are always heavy and dense even when they are
> mostly wheat flour. And was enough of any of these grains available
> *throughout the year* to keep yeast alive for breadbaking? Yeast was not
> sold dried in packets till he modern period: when Thoreau's yeast died, he
> had to buy more or do without. Considering that *North American* First
> Nations, as opposed to Mexico/Peru, had virtually no alcoholc beverages
> (none at all in Ohio, where I am working on the topic), I have a hard time
> believing that precontact natives had yeast in North America.
> Barbara, what is your source for saying that they did?
> Thanks,everyone who's posted!
> Jim Comer
>
bogus address
us...@bgsu.edu (jim comer) writes:
[pre-Columbian North America]
> was enough of any of these grains available *throughout the year* to
> keep yeast alive for breadbaking?
Yeast keeps alive just fine floating in the air. I've made sourdough
bread in the middle of winter in Scotland from wild yeasts that floated
in through the window; it doesn't always work, but most of the time it
does, and it only needs to work once to give you a starter culture.
However, there isn't much point if you don't have wheat or rye to rise
with it. I suspect all that will happen if you try fermenting maize
with wild yeast is that you get a nasty dose of mycotoxin poisoning.
> Yeast was not sold dried in packets till the modern period:
Somewhere I have a magazine article from the mid-18th century that
describes "instant" yeast as a promising technique being adopted
outside its native Hungary; seemingly bakers in Debrecen had been
doing it for a long time with no awareness that their technology was
anything unusual.
> when Thoreau's yeast died, he had to buy more or do without.
Unless this was a special culture intended for high-alcohol wine
fermentation or something like French bread, Thoreau was just being
a pathetic wimp. (I presume this is from _Walden_; my copy is in
an inaccessible box).
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Barbara Dowling
used with respect for all women elders of any First Nation) of the Tohono O’Odhams
use it in their bean and acorn breads. The use various types of beans but one
which is high in sugars and natural pectins is the mesquite bean pods.
When talking of any male elder the term of respect is Grandfather.
Barbara Dowling
I was just re reading your message about the beginnings of agriculture and here
is another scenario that might have some direction to how agriculture was
developed independently in different places. (1) Who were the gathers?
Women! (2) Who were the keepers of the baskets or carriers of any kind which
held the seeds and fruits. Women! (3) Who were the primary food preparers?
Women! Could they have discovered by accident that that forgotten bag over the
winter had sprouted and when spring came they found a clump growing of whatever
they had had in the container? Wow! What a concept they may of thought. I
don't have to walk and search for so long out in the dangerous land away from
the safety of my family and friends. What if I were to drop some of (the
whatever) next winter near my camp? They may have made many attempts before
they found success. And then a more formalized agriculture developed from just
wanting to have a consistent known safe location for the whatevers.
Barbara Dowling
Opinicus wrote:
> Barbara Dowling wrote in message <3665A518...@azstarnet.com>...
> >No its not a dumb question. But the answer is No! Wheat is a European
> import.
> >The First Nations used wild oats, rye, beans, potatoes, other roots and
> seeds to
> >make flour with. Any and all could and were used to use on their own or
> mixed
>
> Well then there is something of a problem. The latest research indicates
> that einkorn wheat was domesticated in what is now southeastern Turkey a bit
> less than 10,000 years ago. ("DNA fingerprinting of wild progenitors points
> to the Karacá Dag mountains of South-East Turkey as the site of Einkorn
> wheat domestication" by Manfred Heun, Ralf Schäfer-Pregl, Dieter Klawan,
> Renato Castagna , Monica Accerbi, Basilio Borghi, Francesco Salamini,
> _Science_, possibly Oct or Nov 1997)
>
> This article refers only to einkorn of course but I believe that this event
> is thought to be the start of the Neolithic (ie Agricultural) Revolution,
> which is usually put at about 10,000 years ago. The problem is, when did
> the first human beings enter the Americas? I thought it was more than 10,000
> years ago; but if that's the case, then presumably they must have arrived
> there without knowledge of agriculture. Yet people were undeniably growing
> crops in the western hemisphere before the arrival of the Europeans. (Not
> only were they growing them; the crops were completely different.) So, did
> they invent agriculture independently? Possible, I suppose; but to me it
> seems unlikely. Or was the idea of agriculture ("Instead of eating them all
> now, bury some of the seeds that you've spent all day gathering in the
> ground, wait a while, and you'll get even more seeds back"--an enormous act
> of faith and foresight when you think about it) somehow transmitted to them,
> perhaps before the Bering land-bridge disappeared?
>
> Bob
> Istanbul
>
> ---
> To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
> Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/5309/>
>
> >Opinicus wrote:
> >> This is going to seem like a really dumb question to some of the people
> on
> >> this NG but I have to ask it anyhow:
> >> Was wheat cultivated in the New World before the arrival of the Europeans
> in
> >> 1492?
jim comer
Okay: a native people use lichen to raise bread. And it is a
bean-acorn bread. Is this like baking powder, then? How high does it
rise? Saleratus or ash based baking powder doesn't raise bread very
much, ergo beaten biscuit and the thin, thin layers of tortes (they could
not bake high, fluffy cakes). This still doesn't bring us to the realm of
raised bread. Did any natives on these two continents have it?
Thanks for the citations.
The origins of agriculture? What about the Australian natives who spit
fruit pits onto garbage piles or replant yamtops, but do not 'cultivate'?
Even more interesting were the Mikmaq of Nova Scotia, who planted only
tobacco, and hunted and collected the rest of their food: the wild
provided, but they used agriculture to get what the wild did not provide.
The 'genius' idea neglects both the existence of cultures like those
above, who knew perfectly well what agriculture was but had no interest in
it, and the millenia-long phase in the Near East when humans harvested
wild grass seed in the fall but never planted anything. I suggest that
agriculture was something made necessary by the extinction of the
megafauna, not a brilliant advance by a genius. That said, women are
almost always the cultivators in horticultural societies. Hats off!
Jim Comer
Barbara Dowling
There are two types of leavens. (1) Yeasts and (2) Baking powders. The
lichen is a YEAST and had nothing to do with baking powder. They are two
different things. What I am saying is that bread even by our colonists were
not the high cakes of today. Never were. That's not what I'm after. I am
trying to recreate what they WOULD have been like. I know they were NOT real
high. BUT I do not believe they were flat like tortillas or brick hard
either. Some may have been. So... That's fine, those would have been good
for traveling and long keeping times. I am doing experiments now on this when
I am able to find all my ingredients. What started on this discussion was
just what is baking powder and baking soda. I have through all the
discussions and interesting side issues have now I feel a good handle on what
baking powder is made or possible made of (depending on the time and place),
so will start experiments on this type of breads too. Will let you know of my
results when I finish. A botanist friend of mine is helping and will assure
that I have traditional native species of whatever I use. I expect to get
something no higher or bigger than say a dinner roll of today. I would be
happy with that. At least I would know I am on the right road.
As for the origins of agriculture. You need to read my message again. It
said ANOTHER scenario. I doubt there was just one. Different peoples,
different environments, different native resources. Any or all would have
caused different directions on how and why agriculture became. Number one
error is trying to lump ALL First Nations into one category. They were
different peoples with different views and different needs. The 'genius'
idea is true for all of the different possible scenarios. Whatever it was
that directed them to do whatever is a genius in itself. Don't short change
any of the peoples of any possible scenario. I doubt seriously that there
will ever be a conclusive agreement on how it started or why. It doesn't
really matter because each is where the people needed to be at any place or
time in their cultural development. When the land supplied plenty, why grow
things except what you couldn't find easily. When resources were fought over
by other peoples or animals, the use of growing things closer to safety is not
bad either as well as it is assured that when you pass by that area again
there should be something. When resources were depleted by over used growing
was a way of sustaining without having to pack up and move. Agriculture also
supported larger populations than just hunting and gathering. This could also
be another scenario. It doubt that any one is correct OR wrong. Just the
development of man as the genius. To prevent an onset of debate on women
being the soul agriculturist, the First Nations from around the southwest
south into Mesoameria were men. The women became the weavers as cotton was
grown. They also were the peoples to develop into distinct class societies,
farmers, soldiers, merchants, nobility, priests, etc. But thanks for the
hats off! We did contribute allot. ;-)
Barbara Dowling
jim comer
Okay.
The
> lichen is a YEAST
Then how could acorn-bean bread be raised by a yeast, as the flours
contain no gluten?
and had nothing to do with baking powder.
Understood.
There are two types of leavens.
There are other leavens also, mostly mechanical. Eggs and snow are two
examples and were both used in colonial America. The
What I am saying is that bread even by our colonist
Colonists? Then why lichen? Yeast was brought from England, starting
with Roanoke Island and continuing through Jamestown- the heavy rye breads
of New England were leavened and rose overnight. With maize and potatoes
as growth media for yeast (they both work well) why lichen? And how much
lichen was used? Lichen is slow growing and would soon be gone.
I expect to get
> something no higher or bigger than say a dinner roll of today. I would be
> happy with that. At least I would know I am on the right road.
>
What is the area of colonial America? Is it maize bread? Wheat?
Rye'n'injun?
Barbara Dowling
Check out the November 20, 1998 issues of Science. The last sentence of the fourth
para from the end is the same conclusion I was stating about agriculture and
farming. "It no longer makes sense to suppose a strong causal line between farming
and settled village life." (Piperno) The next para also explains don't but people
into little black boxes. We don't all fit. And yes I did mean wild. Unless I
specifically say cultivated I always mean wild.
Just because you have never hear my name before doesn't mean I a complete idiot. I
understand bread making some. Do cook you know. Also I know your a history teacher
but are you also a Master Baker? I'm not. Didn't calm or expound to be. Just a
searcher of knowledge and interested in what it was like before all of today's
conveniences. Yes, I do understand about gluten. And there are breads made of low
or none gluten for people who are allergic to it. I for one am allergic to wheat so
maybe this is another reason for my searching.
Barbara
jim comer wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Barbara mentioned oats and rye: my assumption was that she meant wild
> species resembling them, perhaps including little barley or Lyme grass.
> And wild yeasts do exist: else alcohol, raised bread and such would not
> exist. But raised bread requires not only yeast but gluten in the bread
> grain. Wheat has lots of gluten, rye a little, barley and oats almost
> none, and maize none at all. Unleavened bread, such as ashcake and
> tortillas, were staples before Europeans came. But Barbara's statements
> about raised bread I have not seen any support for.
> Potatoes did not exist in North America before European contact. There
> are wild relatives of the potato out West, but hardly enough for more than
> an occasional snack. What is the source for potato flour and potato bread
> in pre-Columbian America, Barbara? Sophie Coe doesn't mention them and
> denies that the Incas knew of maize bread or even of nixtamalization.
> How was potato flour made in Peru? I have read of baked and boiled
> potatoes as well as chuno, but no mention of bread.
> Harold Driver's Indians of North America lists no alcoholic beverages
> in Ohio, and frontier histories such as Zeisberger's narrative mention
> none. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.
> Hope all is well,
> Jim Comer
>
jim comer
I appreciate your sending me the references. But I don't see an answer
in your latest post to my original question: does this yeast raise a bean
and nut bread as Saccaromyces cervisiae raises wheat or rye?
My machine can't read some of the characters in the tribal name- is it
possible to write it in some other way? Where do these people live? When
was this information collected, and where is it published?
I do bake all the bread that I eat as well as teaching breadbaking and
so on. I am not apprentice, journeyman or master baker. I have baked a
great deal of nonwheat bread in various contexts, and appreciate perfectly
the hardships of nonwheat bread baking.
Does this lichen yeast raise a nonwheat, non-gluten bread?
Thanks,
Jim Comer
Barbara Dowling
semester so will have time then to meet with the elders to get all your
questions asked. The elders of the Tohono O丹dhams meet on Thursdays which is
the day I teach at the local Community College. I do know that lungwort is a
green parasitical lichen that grows on hardwood trees. The Tohono O'Odhams
live in southern Arizona. I am in the process of getting some of the lichen
to test this question myself. I will let you know the results. As to it
being published somewhere, I do not know at this time. I will research that
for you also. I will definitely have the answers after school is out for the
Christmas break. Then I will be able to attend one of the elder's gatherings
and after presenting gifts, get me questions answered. As to you machine not
being able to read the characters of the Nation's name. Hmmmm they are just in
regular text so if you can't read them then possibly you can't read all of the
posted messages. Strange. hmmm Again the name is T o h o n o O ' O d h a m
s. Maybe putting spaces between each letter will help. Let me know if it
doesn't will try another way. Again until after college is out and I can get
to the elder's gathering.
Barbara Dowling
jim comer
Thanks for the note! I hope that all goes well.
Jim Comer