Ancient Roman bread - how long edible?
Jan Theo Bakker
To: rec.food.sourdough, rec.food.historic, rec.food.baking
Hello,
Following up my earlier questions regarding bakeries / ovens in Pompeii
and Ostia I would like to ask this. How long would ancient Roman bread
(let's say the regular bread made before the Industrial Revolution) be
edible? Not very long, my guess would be, in the absence of
preservatives ...
The relevance of this question is this. In the Roman Imperial period
free corn was distributed to 150,000 to 200,000 people in the city of
Rome (on a total population of perhaps 1 million). Free corn may also
have been given to people in Rome's harbour, Ostia (perhaps 12,000 on a
population of 40,000). This was not "food for the poor", but a gift from
the Emperor, that also reached "middle class" people.
This corn was processed by the members of the bakers' guild (corpus
pistorum). When Juvenalis says that the people in Rome were kept happy
with "panem and circenses" he probably uses correct words: "bread and
games", where bread is not a poetic description of corn.
In Ostia, in the later second and early third century AD, bakeries of
the members of the guild tended to cluster around a very large corn
depot. Although at first sight this seems a sensible development, I
cannot easily explain it. Of course it was handy to be close to the
corn. But corn was presumably transported to the bakeries once or twice
a week. Bread was distributed to shops troughout the town daily. So from
the point of view of transport one would expect the bakers to be close
to their customers, not to the corn storage-buildings. Unless of course
people would pick up their bread only once or twice a week ...
Other reasons for the clustering of bakeries may be these:
- the bakeries produced bread for slaves working in the harbour; large
quantities of bread were distributed to their quarters (that have not
been located) regularly.
- it was undesirable to have the (large) bakeries spread out over the
city; bakeries were regarded as horrible places, and criminals sometimes
did forced labour there; these buildings "attracted" other workshops
(such as fulleries [stench!]), bars, brothels etc.
Thank you.
Jan Theo Bakker PhD
Leiden University
The Netherlands
PS Some more information can be found at the following URL:
Nick Maclaren
In article <335338...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl>,
Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>
>Following up my earlier questions regarding bakeries / ovens in Pompeii
>and Ostia I would like to ask this. How long would ancient Roman bread
>(let's say the regular bread made before the Industrial Revolution) be
>edible? Not very long, my guess would be, in the absence of
>preservatives ...
Please, DON'T be fooled by the chemical addicts! Preservatives are NOT
necessary, and never have been.
When bread is baked, it effectively sterile and most enzymes have been
destroyed. There is thus effectively no internal degradation.
Under relatively damp conditions (e.g. NL/UK!), the ubiquitous mould
spores will start to settle on it and mould will become visible within
a few days. But most moulds are quite harmless. It will typically be
some weeks (depending on humidity and temperature) before the bread
becomes too mouldy to eat.
Under dry conditions (such as a Roman summer), mould spores will not
thrive, and the bread will dry out. After a week or so, it will become
too hard to eat, but can be made eatable by dipping it in gravy, wine
(as the Romans did) or even water. It will keep indefinitely in that
dry state (i.e. years).
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email: nm...@cam.ac.uk
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679
Randy & Diane Walker
nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
>Please, DON'T be fooled by the chemical addicts! Preservatives are NOT
>necessary, and never have been.
>
>When bread is baked, it effectively sterile and most enzymes have been
>destroyed. There is thus effectively no internal degradation.
>
>
>Nick Maclaren,
>University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
>New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
>Email: nm...@cam.ac.uk
>Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679
Also added to this is the fact,questioned in another post, that Roman
bread was of the sourdough type, which keeps very well indeed. Possibly
a couple of weeks, even in humid conditions. There was, if my memory is
right, some comment in Roman chronicles about the (German) barbarians
drinking rotten grain juice (Which is about how beer smells to me,
too!;-) ), but having this amazing, light, non-sour bread, i.e. from
using ale-barm. Of course the bread would still dry out readily in the
dry Roman climate, unless kept well wrapped in oil-cloth (Anyone know if
this was even around then?) or inside a pottery container.
Diane Walker
SCA: Diana Fiona O'Shera
Lob...@worldnet.att.net
In article <335338...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl>,
jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl wrote:
> and Ostia I would like to ask this. How long would ancient Roman bread
> (let's say the regular bread made before the Industrial Revolution) be
> edible? Not very long, my guess would be, in the absence of
> preservatives ...
I wouldn't assume that. I bake bread without preservatives and keep it
in the refrigerator in a Tupperware container. Sometimes the loaf is
there for several weeks before we eat it all. It dries out some, but
it's definitely still edible. I don't know if ancient Romans had any
sort of icebox, but if they did, their bread might have lasted as long as
mine does.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Del Cecchi
I have read of people in eastern Europe keeping bread for many months. There is
a type of bread with a hole in the middle to be threaded on a pole for storage.
This was in Finland. Within the last few years there were stories in the press
about people in Russia drying bread for storage. It was claimed to be quite
edible when rehydrated, and would keep all winter.
So if the bread dries out in a well ventilated place it would keep a long time.
Remember the average person in olden times was not as picky as many are today.
--
Del Cecchi
cecchi@rchland
nos...@auerbach_at_unity.ncsu.edu
In <8613776...@dejanews.com>, on 04/18/97
at 11:12 AM, Lob...@worldnet.att.net said:
<- I wouldn't assume that. I bake bread without preservatives and keep
<- it in the refrigerator in a Tupperware container. Sometimes the loaf
<- is there for several weeks before we eat it all. It dries out some,
<- but it's definitely still edible. I don't know if ancient Romans had
<- any sort of icebox, but if they did, their bread might have lasted as
<- long as mine does.
They'd be worse off with a refrigerator. Bread stales faster at
refrigerator temperatures than at room temperature. Breads with long
rising times and/or made from wild yeasts (i.e., what the Romans were
doing) have a long shelf life. My wild yeast breads stay notably fresh on
the counter for 5 days and pretty damn good for 8. Large loaves, like
those a old farm family might have brought to the village oven for baking
once a week, would have an even longer life. And, of course, used to
thicken soups/stews that life is even longer. And, of course, reheating
temporarily reverses the staling process (up to a point).
--
Regards,
David
"What would life be without arithmetic, but a scene of horrors?"
-Rev. Sydney Smith, letter to young lady, 22 July 1835
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Auerbach auer...@unity.ncsu.edu (David Auerbach)
Department of Philosophy & Religion
NCSU
Box 8103
Raleigh, 27695-8103
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kari Juhani Haatanen
: I have read of people in eastern Europe keeping bread for many months.
: pole for storage. This was in Finland. Within the last few years there
: were stories in the press about people in Russia drying bread for
: storage. It was claimed to be quite edible when rehydrated, and would
: keep all winter.
: So if the bread dries out in a well ventilated place it would keep a
: long time. Remember the average person in olden times was not as picky as
: many are today.
: --
: Del Cecchi
: cecchi@rchland
Yes, here in Finland we still have that bread with a hole because people
used to dry bread to keep it over winter. The hole is still there, even
if we eat the bread fresh. On the other hand, we do eat a lot of
commercially produced dry bread without any holes. That dry bread is
quite thin and you are not supposed to rehydrate it. The question is
about rye bread, of course. Certainly that bread will keep for a few
years, and if you are not picky, some years more.
Kari Haatanen
Jerry Stratton
nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
>Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>Following up my earlier questions regarding bakeries / ovens in Pompeii
>>(let's say the regular bread made before the Industrial Revolution) be
>>edible? Not very long, my guess would be, in the absence of
>>preservatives ...
>thrive, and the bread will dry out. After a week or so, it will become
>too hard to eat, but can be made eatable by dipping it in gravy, wine
>(as the Romans did) or even water. It will keep indefinitely in that
>dry state (i.e. years).
Similar conditions, perhaps, here in San Diego. I leave my bread out after
I bake it; normally, of course, it doesn't last over a few days anyway,
because it's gone by then :*). But on those occasions when, for whatever
reason, I end up with that last two-three inches not getting eaten, it has
never gone bad. It gets hard as a rock, but dipping it in chili, or using
it for croutons works fine. I've had bread last three weeks before I use
it, without getting moldy. Oddly, my housemates, who buy "wonder" style
bread, don't have this luck--their bread grows wonderful blue-green
artwork within a week.
Jerry
je...@hoboes.com
http://www.hoboes.com/ e-mail he...@hoboes.com
What Your Children Are Doing: http://www.hoboes.com/Children/
Mark Anderson
Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> The relevance of this question is this. In the Roman Imperial period
> free corn was distributed to 150,000 to 200,000 people in the city of
> Rome (on a total population of perhaps 1 million). Free corn may also
> have been given to people in Rome's harbour, Ostia (perhaps 12,000 on a
> population of 40,000). This was not "food for the poor", but a gift from
> the Emperor, that also reached "middle class" people.
OK, how'd they get the corn. Isn't it a new world plant? Was the word
used for something else in Imperial times?
--
Mark Anderson
Riparia
"The trouble with good ideas is that they soon degenerate
into a lot of hard work" - Anon.
Robert...@teleport.com
> ande...@teleport.com (Mark Anderson) writes:
> Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
> > The relevance of this question is this. In the Roman Imperial period
> > free corn was distributed to 150,000 to 200,000 people in the city of
> > Rome (on a total population of perhaps 1 million). Free corn may also
> > have been given to people in Rome's harbour, Ostia (perhaps 12,000 on a
> > population of 40,000). This was not "food for the poor", but a gift from
> > the Emperor, that also reached "middle class" people.
> OK, how'd they get the corn. Isn't it a new world plant? Was the word
> used for something else in Imperial times?
>>>>
"Corn", in Europe, means any edible seed of a cereal plant- wheat,
rye, barley, oats...if American "corn" is referred to, it is "maize" or
"Indian corn".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
djmk
ande...@teleport.com (Mark Anderson) wrote:
>Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>> The relevance of this question is this. In the Roman Imperial period
>> free corn was distributed to 150,000 to 200,000 people in the city of
>> Rome (on a total population of perhaps 1 million). Free corn may also
>> have been given to people in Rome's harbour, Ostia (perhaps 12,000 on a
>> population of 40,000). This was not "food for the poor", but a gift from
>> the Emperor, that also reached "middle class" people.
>OK, how'd they get the corn. Isn't it a new world plant? Was the word
>used for something else in Imperial times?
>--
>Mark Anderson
>Riparia
>"The trouble with good ideas is that they soon degenerate
>into a lot of hard work" - Anon.
As I remember the word corn in oldentimes meant grain, not the new
world Maise or Mahs
djmk
Lob...@worldnet.att.net
>>I wouldn't assume that. I bake bread without preservatives and keep >>it in the refrigerator in a Tupperware container. Sometimes rhe >>loaf is there for several weeks before we eat it all.
snip
>My wild yeast breads stay notably fresh on the counter for 5 days and pretty damn good for 8.
true ... my bread dries out ... I guess that would be considered stale.
I eat it anyway and if it's toasted, makes no difference. But I'd
rather have dry bread than mold, and that's what I'd have if I left it
out on the counter too long.
Nick Maclaren
In article <5jolo1$gqh$1...@ruby.mint.net>, djmk <dj...@somtel.com> wrote:
>ande...@teleport.com (Mark Anderson) wrote:
>
>>Jan Theo Bakker <jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>
>>> The relevance of this question is this. In the Roman Imperial period
>>> free corn was distributed to 150,000 to 200,000 people in the city of
>>> Rome (on a total population of perhaps 1 million). Free corn may also
>>> have been given to people in Rome's harbour, Ostia (perhaps 12,000 on a
>>> population of 40,000). This was not "food for the poor", but a gift from
>>> the Emperor, that also reached "middle class" people.
>
>>OK, how'd they get the corn. Isn't it a new world plant? Was the word
>>used for something else in Imperial times?
>
>world Maise or Mahs
As it does today in English. Corn (in this sense - it has others) is
the generic name for edible grass seeds, especially wheat, barley etc.
William Round
: jant...@rullf2.leidenuniv.nl wrote:
: > and Ostia I would like to ask this. How long would ancient Roman bread
: > (let's say the regular bread made before the Industrial Revolution) be
: > edible? Not very long, my guess would be, in the absence of
: > preservatives ...
Last year while visiting relatives in Greece, my mother's cousin, who
bakes wonderful rustic bread, offered us tender loaves. She, herself, took
a stale end piece and ran tap water briefly over it.
My curiousity piqued, I took a hard chunk and followed her example.
Amazing! It tasted fine, wasn't soggy (don't soak it - just moisten it),
and certainly made hard-as-rock bread edible. I don't know that the
ancient Romans did this, but can tell you that present-day Spartans do.
By the way, if you're writing a screenplay (which I think I remember
from the original post), dunking bread in water (or wine) has a certain
eye appeal.
Regards,
Penny Round