qeema, kiyma, keema
Geeta Bharathan
My Hindi dictionary said the word is derived from the Arabic, qeema. My
Arabic speaker-friend said it does not have that connotation in Arabic,
and that "qeema" means price/cost.
Interestingly enough, "keemat" is price/cost in Hindi; apparently in
Turkish this is "kiymet."
So what is going on (rather, happened)? Were the two derived from teh same
Arabic root and then diverged, taking on a different meaning? Or is
keema/kiyma from a different root? Anyone know?
--Geeta
Opinicus
news:Pine.GSO.4.05.101122...@life2.bio.sunysb.edu...
> Minced meat is "keema" in Hindi,and, I understand, "kiyma" in Turkish.
to in pre-Islamic texts. It means "1: chop up fine. 2: spend, make a
sacrifice (of). 3: slaughter, massacre.
> My Hindi dictionary said the word is derived from the Arabic, qeema. My
> Arabic speaker-friend said it does not have that connotation in Arabic,
> and that "qeema" means price/cost.
> Interestingly enough, "keemat" is price/cost in Hindi; apparently in
> Turkish this is "kiymet."
> So what is going on (rather, happened)? Were the two derived from teh same
> Arabic root and then diverged, taking on a different meaning? Or is
> keema/kiyma from a different root? Anyone know?
They're from different roots. Arabic "qimet" (value, worth, esteem, price,
cost) is unrelated to minced meat.
I can imagine how "keemat" meaning "price" or "cost" made it into Hindi; but
how did "keema" meaning "minced meat" get there? Could it have been through
Persian I wonder?
--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse http://kanyak.com
bogus address
> Minced meat is "keema" in Hindi,and, I understand, "kiyma" in Turkish.
> My Hindi dictionary said the word is derived from the Arabic, qeema. My
> Arabic speaker-friend said it does not have that connotation in Arabic,
> and that "qeema" means price/cost.
> Interestingly enough, "keemat" is price/cost in Hindi; apparently in
> Turkish this is "kiymet."
> same Arabic root and then diverged, taking on a different meaning? Or
> is keema/kiyma from a different root? Anyone know?
It must be Turkish - it's a regular derivation from the verb "kiymak"
(stem "kiy-") "to slaughter or mince". The Arabic word was borrowed
into Turkish with no change of meaning, as "kiymet".
The origin of the Turkish verb might be in an archaic word meaning
"sharp edge" - there are a whole stack of related words to do with
cutting, chopping, wounding and sundry mayhem.
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Geeta Bharathan
[of "keema" vs. "keemat"]
> They're from different roots. Arabic "qimet" (value, worth, esteem, price,
> cost) is unrelated to minced meat.
>
> I can imagine how "keemat" meaning "price" or "cost" made it into Hindi;
Thanks for the insights, both yours and Jack's, in another post.
Funnily enough, as I was reading your responses to my query I was
listening to the radio. It was a programme on NPR; they were talking to
someone selling Christmas trees in Kabul, and he said something about its
"qeemat"...
--Geeta
Geeta Bharathan
> It must be Turkish - it's a regular derivation from the verb "kiymak"
> (stem "kiy-") "to slaughter or mince". The Arabic word was borrowed
> into Turkish with no change of meaning, as "kiymet".
>
> The origin of the Turkish verb might be in an archaic word meaning
> "sharp edge" - there are a whole stack of related words to do with
> cutting, chopping, wounding and sundry mayhem.
>
This was what I found:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/steingass/
Francis Joseph Steingass (1825-1903)
A comprehensive Persian-English dictionary.
qima, (p. 0999)
qima, qima, Minced meat; construed with kardan and kashidan.
qimat, (p. 0988)
A qimat, A swaddling or cradle-band; a rope for tying a sheep to be
slaughtered, or the hands and feet of a captive.
According to this, "qimat" is derived from Arabic qimat, and has no
price/cost connotation!!
Very curious.
--Geeta
Opinicus
> qimat, (p. 0988)
> A qimat, A swaddling or cradle-band; a rope for tying a sheep to be
> slaughtered, or the hands and feet of a captive.
> According to this, "qimat" is derived from Arabic qimat, and has no
> price/cost connotation!!
Is there an entry for something like "qimet" that means "value"? The
distinction between "a" and "e" is not always morphemic in Arabic but it is
in Persian and Turkish. I can find no word in Ottoman Turkish meaning "band"
or "rope" resembling "qimat".
> Very curious.
Indeed. Another problem might be the symbols used to render the initial /k/
sound. Both Arabic and Persian have more than one, reflecting morphemic
differences in those languages. In Ottoman Turkish, the letter beginning
both "k}iyma" and "k}iymet" is "?".
Geeta Bharathan
> Is there an entry for something like "qimet" that means "value"? The
> distinction between "a" and "e" is not always morphemic in Arabic but it is
> in Persian and Turkish. I can find no word in Ottoman Turkish meaning "band"
> or "rope" resembling "qimat".
> Indeed. Another problem might be the symbols used to render the initial /k/
> sound. Both Arabic and Persian have more than one, reflecting morphemic
> differences in those languages. In Ottoman Turkish, the letter beginning
> both "k}iyma" and "k}iymet" is "?".
No kimet, kimat, qimet, or qimat.
Also, I was told that in Arabic "cost" is "qima"; "cost of such and such"
would be "qimat-e-such and such." [i cannot remember whether that shd be
-i- or -e-].
Is that really "?" (that's how your last letter shows up on my screen)?
--Geeta
Opinicus
> Is that really "?" (that's how your last letter shows up on my screen)?
No, it should be a "kaf". It didn't make it through the character-filter
apparently.
Geeta Bharathan
> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/steingass/
>
> qima, (p. 0999)
> qima, qima, Minced meat; construed with kardan and kashidan.
>
> qimat, (p. 0988)
> A qimat, A swaddling or cradle-band; a rope for tying a sheep to be
> slaughtered, or the hands and feet of a captive.
>
...curiouser and curiouser
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/
John T Platts (1830-1904)
A dictionary of Urdu, classical Hindi, and English
qima (p. 0797)
P qima (for A. qimat, prob. fr. Gr. XUMO\S), s.m. Pounded or minced meat:
-- qima-pula'o, s.m. A kind of dish made of rice and pounded
meat, &c.: -- qima karna, v.t. To pound (meat), to chop up meat very fine;
to make mince-meat of; to hack, mangle.
--Geeta
Opinicus
> ...curiouser and curiouser
> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/
> John T Platts (1830-1904)
> A dictionary of Urdu, classical Hindi, and English
> qima (p. 0797)
> P qima (for A. qimat, prob. fr. Gr. XUMO\S), s.m. Pounded or minced meat:
> -- qima-pula'o, s.m. A kind of dish made of rice and pounded
> meat, &c.: -- qima karna, v.t. To pound (meat), to chop up meat very fine;
> to make mince-meat of; to hack, mangle.
entered the Indian subcontinent through the Mughals.
"The dynasty was founded by a Chagatai Turkic prince named Babur (reigned
1526-30), who was descended from the Turkic conqueror Timur (Tamerlane) on
his father's side and from Chagatai, second son of the Mongol ruler Genghis
Khan, on his mother's side."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=55510&tocid=0&query=mughal
That ought to account for the word's presence in Urdu (and also in Hindi?).
Is the word more common in northern India than southern perhaps?
Geeta Bharathan
> > P qima (for A. qimat, prob. fr. Gr. XUMO\S), s.m. Pounded or minced meat:
> You know, I'm beginning to wonder if the word "qima/mince meat" might
> have entered the Indian subcontinent through the Mughals. That ought
> to account for the word's presence in Urdu (and also in Hindi?).
Oh there's no question that many of these cooking-related terms came with
the moghuls and are common in many north Indian languages; also among
muslims in general [and now familiar to restaurant goers all over India
and the world: that which is pushed as "Indian" food rightly might be
termed Mughlai/Punjabi/Uttar Pradeshi food, but that's another story.]
But there also was significant trade between Arab lands and the western
coast of India, so that's another possible route into India for Arabic
terms. That's why I find these apparent disjunctions so interesting.
What interested me about the above (given my friend's assertion that
"qima" never has the mince meat connotation in Arabic; he thought the
Turks might have been responsible for it) was this new twist--a Greek
connection, no less.
--Geeta
bogus address
>> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/ P qima (for A. qimat,
>> prob. fr. Gr. XUMO\S), s.m. Pounded or minced meat:
> "qima" never has the mince meat connotation in Arabic; he thought the
> Turks might have been responsible for it) was this new twist--a Greek
> connection, no less.
The point about the Turkish word is that it's a regular derivation
from a word that has nothing specifically to do with food, and which
is a part of a large family of other terms derived by standard
processes of affixation. That makes it far more likely to have
originated in Turkish. It's plausible that Greek could have picked
up one of the words in this family specifically relating to food;
far less likely that Turkish would have picked up a Greek food term,
analyzed it into a culinary process and generalized that process into
a whole range of other actions.
Also, given how basic and culture-independent those terms are, I can't
see it being of Ottoman origin; most Ottoman-originated words are rather
fancy expressions that relate to forms of social organization you don't
get while stomping across Asia in all-conquering cavalry hordes.
A nomadic herding and hunting society *needs* words for chopping fresh
meat up finely to make it edible. The Turks would have had to make up
that terminology centuries before any of them saw a Greek first-hand.
The Greek word sounds more like one related to "hummus" to me, which
I suppose has to be Arabic or Egyptian, given where the food itself
comes from.
Opinicus
news:85...@purr.demon.co.uk...
> A nomadic herding and hunting society *needs* words for chopping fresh
> meat up finely to make it edible. The Turks would have had to make up
> that terminology centuries before any of them saw a Greek first-hand.
The root k}iy}im ("cutting", "slaughter") is used in the lengthy inscription
on the 8th century (774) Orkhon Monument.
http://www.owc.org.mn/blue_mountains/culture_tour.html (This is the oldest
known inscription in a Turkic language.) It also appears in the "Book of
Dede Korkut", http://sircasaray.turkiye.org/anadolu/myth/dede.html a
collection of Oghuz Turk tales from the 8-9th centuries.