Italian food before pasta and tomatoes
Ian Menzies
A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
Any answers will be appreciated.
David Tallan
Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
: I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
: introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
: tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
Going from my recollection of primarily 15th century Italian sources,
pasta was oten cooked in meat broth and served with cheese.
For what it's worth, if memory serves (sorry, my cookbook collection
is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
Marco Polo so I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated
Marco Polo.
Respectfully,
David Tallan
tal...@io.org
John Bridges
On 11 Sep 1996 15:25:40 GMT, Ian Menzies <men...@nortel.ca> wrote:
>A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
>the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
>brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
>
>I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
>introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
>tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
>
I don't have an answer except that pasta did not arrive with Marco
Polo.
Also what did they eat before corn, in northern Italy corn polenta is
now a staple of life, what did they used to eat?
David Friedman
> For what it's worth, if memory serves (sorry, my cookbook collection
> is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
> Marco Polo so I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated
> Marco Polo.
>
> Respectfully,
> David Tallan
I think that your conclusion is correct but your evidence is not. I
believe the earliest "English" pasta is anglo-Norman late 13th century,
which I believe would be slightly after Marco Polo's return. On the other
hand, pasta exist in Middle Eastern cookbooks pre-Marco Polo, and since
the Italians were trading with the Islamic world (and had lots of Muslims
living in Sicily and southern Italy), I find it hard to believe they had
to go all the way to China to get it.
My favorite (Middle eastern) pre-Polo pasta is al-Baghdadi's Rishta, where
the "sauce" is lamb and lentil and ... .
David Friedman
Robin Carroll-Mann
tal...@io.org (David Tallan) wrote:
>Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>: I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
>: introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
>: tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
>Going from my recollection of primarily 15th century Italian sources,
>pasta was oten cooked in meat broth and served with cheese.
Platina suggested cheese and spices. If the pasta was to be eaten
during Lent, when meat broth could not be used, he advised that it be
cooked in almond milk and served with spices.
>For what it's worth, if memory serves (sorry, my cookbook collection
>is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
>Marco Polo so I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated
>Marco Polo.
If this newsgroup were ever to have a FAQ, I think this question
should be right at the top of the list. It seems to come up about
once a month. Anyone else think it might be a good idea to put
together a FAQ? And more importantly, would anyone be willing to
contribute to it?
>Respectfully,
>David Tallan
>tal...@io.org
Robin Carroll-Mann
SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
har...@tribeca.ios.com
Harper's Bread Basket -- http://www.geocities.com/heartland/3967
Walter Ulrich
> dd...@best.com (David Friedman) writes:
[snip]
> I think that your conclusion is correct but your evidence is not. I
> believe the earliest "English" pasta is anglo-Norman late 13th century,
> which I believe would be slightly after Marco Polo's return.
>>>>
Marco Polo: c1254-1324.
The fact, or not, of ""English" pasta" in the late 13th century (the 1200's)
may or may not have anything to do with Marco Polo. Just as the introduction
of drive-in theatres in the U.S. may or may not have something to do with
pizza being widely accepted...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Martinich
John Bridges (jbri...@super.zippo.com) wrote:
: On 11 Sep 1996 15:25:40 GMT, Ian Menzies <men...@nortel.ca> wrote:
:
: >A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
: >the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
: >brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
: >I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
: >introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
: >tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
:
: I don't have an answer except that pasta did not arrive with Marco
: Polo.
:
: Also what did they eat before corn, in northern Italy corn polenta is
: now a staple of life, what did they used to eat?
:
Buckwheat, millet and wheat.
D.M.
David Tallan
David Friedman (dd...@best.com) wrote:
: I think that your conclusion is correct but your evidence is not. I
: believe the earliest "English" pasta is anglo-Norman late 13th century,
: which I believe would be slightly after Marco Polo's return.
I remembered right with regards to the English culinary record but
wrong with regards to the date of Marco Polo's travels which I had
misremembered as 14th century. Ah well....
Respectfully,
David Tallan
tal...@io.org
Peter Rosa
Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
>
> tal...@io.org (David Tallan) wrote:
>
> >Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>
> >: introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
> >: tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
>
> >pasta was oten cooked in meat broth and served with cheese.
>
> Platina suggested cheese and spices. If the pasta was to be eaten
> during Lent, when meat broth could not be used, he advised that it be
> cooked in almond milk and served with spices.
served anymore. Does anyone have a recipe?
Bo...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de
Actually, not only tomatoes but also potatoes (as in gnocci),
eggplants, zucchini, tobacco, chocolate and vanilla were brought
to Europe from America. Even coffee (as in espresso) was brought
by the turkish from southern Arabia after the end of the Middle
Ages. Marco Polo did not bring pizza back from China, and neither
pasta. Both are fairly simple ideas, as you have to admit. When
both where introduced, nobody knows for sure, but in a extant
last will from central Italy 50 years before Polo several sacks
of pasta are mentioned. There are even some hints that pasta may
be indeed Roman in origin.
As a first step to ancient Italian food, try to omit everything
from the New World or eastern Asia, but a much better way would
be to have a look at the Roman Cookbook by Apicius (4th c. AD),
available in the US in a good edition by B. Flower and E.
Rosenbaum.
Greetings,
Matthias Bode
Bo...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de
x
Donald Fisk
jbri...@super.zippo.com (John Bridges) wrote:
>I don't have an answer except that pasta did not arrive with Marco
>Polo.
Apicius refers to tractum in a couple of his recipes, which is a type
of pasta, so it goes back to Roman times. Tomatoes, of course, are
from the Americas and weren't available until the 16th Century.
Likewise, chillies, peppers and maize.
There's a theory that Marco Polo never actually reached China, as his
descriptions of the place are inaccurate; in particular, he fails to
mention either foot binding or tea.
Le Hibou hi...@enterprise.net http://homepages.enterprise.net/hibou/
There are a number of mechanical devices which increase sexual
arousal, particularly in women. Chief among them is the
Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible. -- PJ O'Rourke.
David Friedman
In article <51a9af$6...@news.enterprise.net>, hi...@enterprise.net (Donald
Fisk) wrote:
> Apicius refers to tractum in a couple of his recipes, which is a type
> of pasta, so it goes back to Roman times.
The problem, of course, is how do you know that "tractum" is a type of
pasta. Charles Perry published an article in PPC some years back, in which
he considered the question of pasta in classical antiquity and concluded
that there was no clear evidence for its existence.
David Friedman
Austin Meredith
On 12 Sep 1996, David Friedman wrote:
> I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated Marco Polo.
I would concur, but I have heard somewhere that pasta can be effectively
made only from one variety of wheat, the variety known as _durum_, or
"hard." If that be indeed the case, then in order to answer the question
of who it was who ate the first pasta, we need to pose the question, not
in the usual form of who it was who ate the first thingie shaped like a
noodle, but, instead, where in the world did durum originate? --And, to
the best of my understanding, legends about the Polos to the contrary
notwithstanding, this variety of wheat did not originate in the Far East.
\s\ Austin Meredith <r2c...@uci.edu>, "Stack of the Artist of Kouroo" Project
Richard Strayer
>There's a theory that Marco Polo never actually reached China, as his
>descriptions of the place are inaccurate; in particular, he fails to
>mention either foot binding or tea.
That's curious; didn't the Chinese themselves write accounts of his
visit? I seem to recall once viewing a Chinese painting which depicted
his visit to the emperor's court.
RES
--
+-----------------------------------------+-----------------------+
| "Wisdom consists of: (a) having a great | Jan, Richard and |
| deal to say, and (b) not saying it." | Jessica Strayer |
+-----------------------------------------+-----------------------+
Terry Nutter
Hi, Terry Nutter here.
David Friedman responded to David Tallan:
: > For what it's worth, if memory serves (sorry, my cookbook collection
: > is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
: > Marco Polo so I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated
: > Marco Polo.
: I think that your conclusion is correct but your evidence is not. I
: believe the earliest "English" pasta is anglo-Norman late 13th century,
: which I believe would be slightly after Marco Polo's return.
Marco Polo returned to Venice in 1295; later than the earlier of the
two surviving A-N manuscripts is believed to have been written. In
addition, internal evidence from the other MS (linguistic, and other)
strongly indicates that while the copy is 13th C, the content is older
than the content of the other MS.
Regardless of the age of the content of the second, the first pretty
clearly antedates Marco Polo's return, let alone any reasonable
assumptions about the time it would take, once he got home, for the
recipes to get to England.
Cheers,
-- Terry
Robin Carroll-Mann
Peter Rosa <"pr...@worldnet.att.net"@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
I'm not sure that one would even need a recipe. Here's what Platina
says about noodles:
"When they have cooked for an hour in rich juice, put them on the
plates and season them with grated cheese and spices. And if it is a
fast day, cook them in almond juice and goat's milk; indeed since milk
should not be cooked so much, let them boil beforehand in a little
water, then add the milk itself. When they are cooked, remember to
sprinkle them with sugar."
Cook the pasta in water until not quite done; drain. Cook in almond
milk or a mixture of almond milk and goat's milk (now available in
cans in some supermarkets). When the pasta is tender and the milk has
thickened slightly, sprinkle with grated cheese, spices (I recommend
nutmeg and pepper), and a little sugar.
David Friedman
In article <518giu$q...@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
Bo...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
> Actually, not only tomatoes but also potatoes (as in gnocci),
> eggplants, zucchini, tobacco, chocolate and vanilla were brought
> to Europe from America.
Eggplants are old world, and are the most common single vegetable in
medieval islamic recipes.
Not only is zuccini from the new world, so are all of the common pumpkins
and squashes--most of which are varieties of Cucurbita Pepo. There is,
however, some sort of edible gourd (possibly lagenaria sicereia [sp?], the
white flowered gourd) which appears in european cookbooks and
illustrations pre-columbus.
> Even coffee (as in espresso) was brought
> by the turkish from southern Arabia after the end of the Middle
> Ages.
Coffee is probably native to Abyssinia, where it has been used since very
early times. It started spreading through the Islamic world c. 1400.
> Marco Polo did not bring pizza back from China, and neither
> pasta. Both are fairly simple ideas, as you have to admit. When
> both where introduced, nobody knows for sure, but in a extant
> last will from central Italy 50 years before Polo several sacks
> of pasta are mentioned.
Could you give the cite for that?
> As a first step to ancient Italian food, try to omit everything
> from the New World or eastern Asia, but a much better way would
> be to have a look at the Roman Cookbook by Apicius (4th c. AD),
> available in the US in a good edition by B. Flower and E.
> Rosenbaum.
and a bad edition by Vehling, or so I am told.
But that will not give you a good picture of Italian food during the
centuries immediately before Columbus--the cuisine of ancient Rome is not
the same as the cuisine of medieval or renaissance Italy. For the latter,
look at Platina, Martino, and the anonymous 14th c. treatises. Of those,
only Platina has been translated into English, so far as I know.
David Friedman
Herman Rubin
In article <ddfr-14099...@ddfr.vip.best.com>,
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <518giu$q...@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>Bo...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
>Coffee is probably native to Abyssinia, where it has been used since very
>early times. It started spreading through the Islamic world c. 1400.
From what I have read, you are right about the location of the origin of
coffee, but wrong about the time. It seems to have been discovered by an
Arab trader, I believe around 1100.
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558
David Cook
>There's a theory that Marco Polo never actually reached China, as his
>descriptions of the place are inaccurate; in particular, he fails to
>mention either foot binding or tea.
There is little question Marco Polo reached China, although evidence suggests
that he did not go to all the places he describes, particularly Southern
China, Indochina, and Burma. Simply not describing two practices hardly
disproves him, especially since he was in the Yuan (Mongol) court.
Foot-binding only developed during the Southern Sung period and was hardly
widespread by the Yuan and even then would have been found mostly in the Sung
regions. Likewise, tea was still a luxury item during the Sung and not a
common household item until later. It was not a part of the Mongol diet and
at this point there was still seperation between the Mongol and Han classes
reflected in dress, position, laws, and diet.
David Cook
Walter Ulrich
> hru...@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
> In article <ddfr-14099...@ddfr.vip.best.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
> >In article <518giu$q...@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
> >Bo...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
> >Coffee is probably native to Abyssinia, where it has been used since very
> >early times. It started spreading through the Islamic world c. 1400.
> From what I have read, you are right about the location of the origin of
> coffee, but wrong about the time. It seems to have been discovered by an
> Arab trader, I believe around 1100.
>>>>
According to Mrs. Grieve:
"The coffee shrub was introduced into Arabia early in the 15th century
from Abyssinia, and for two centuries Arabia supplied the world's
coffee; at the end of the 17th century the Dutch introduced the plant
into Batavia, and from there a plant was presented to Louis XIV in
1714. All coffee imported from Brazil has been imported from that
single plant. The European use of coffee dates from the 16th century
when it was introduced into Constantinople, and a century later in
1652 the first coffee shop was opened in London." Pages 210-211
A Modern Herbal - Vol. I
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Friedman
I> >Coffee is probably native to Abyssinia, where it has been used since very
> >early times. It started spreading through the Islamic world c. 1400.
>
> From what I have read, you are right about the location of the origin of
> coffee, but wrong about the time. It seems to have been discovered by an
> Arab trader, I believe around 1100.
> Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
> hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558
My source is a pretty detailed discussion in Hattox, Ralph S., Coffee and
Coffeehouses, The Origins of a Social Beverage in the Medieval Near East,
University of Washington Press, Seattle, 1985. What is yours?
David Friedman
TMO/TX
In article <516llk$q...@bmtlh10.bnr.ca> Ian Menzies <men...@nortel.ca> writes:
>From: Ian Menzies <men...@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Italian food before pasta and tomatoes
>Date: 11 Sep 1996 15:25:40 GMT
>A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
>the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
>brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
>I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
>introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
>tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
Current historians date pasta as pre-Polo. Tomatoes are definitely later,
post-Columbus, probably not in general use until 19th century. Previously,
pasta served "en brodo", with garlic & oil, and pesto-type concoctions not
omitting anchovies, an inheritance from the Romans' garum. Think about that
Northern Italian staple, polenta, which awauted the coming of corn to be
invented. Millet, barley and wheat based "polentas" didn't make the grade.
Like most French cooking, Italian cuisine as we know it seems pretty recent,
little older than our own....
el pelon sinverguenza
TMO/TX
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960913...@benfranklin.hnet.uci.edu> Austin Meredith <rc...@benfranklin.hnet.uci.edu> writes:
>From: Austin Meredith <rc...@benfranklin.hnet.uci.edu>
>Subject: Re: Italian food before pasta and tomatoes
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:33:54 -0700
>On 12 Sep 1996, David Friedman wrote:
>> I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated Marco Polo.
>I would concur, but I have heard somewhere that pasta can be effectively
>made only from one variety of wheat, the variety known as _durum_, or
Hard wheat makes better pasta, but the whole argmeent has grown far too
sophisticated. The first pastas were probably pretty simple, little more than
dumplings made of moistened flour, whatever flour was available, poached in
the ever-present soup/stock pot, formerly a tradition in every household.
Dried pastas emerged as a portable, non-spoiling foodstuff, less subject to
weevils, etc., than flour. One respondent refered to cous-cous, intimating a
transit N. Africa-Spain-Italy. Those who have spent time in Sicily, a place
with numberless Arabic place names, idiomatic terms, recipes, costumes, and
even faces might suggest a simpler, shorter bridge over troubled waters, maybe
even a North-South transit, with European pasta/dumplings/etc.. moving to
Africa rather than vice-versa.
?quien sabe?
el pelon sinverguenza
Donald Fisk
dd...@best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>Not only is zuccini from the new world, so are all of the common pumpkins
>and squashes--most of which are varieties of Cucurbita Pepo. There is,
>however, some sort of edible gourd (possibly lagenaria sicereia [sp?], the
>white flowered gourd) which appears in european cookbooks and
>illustrations pre-columbus.
Is this the cucurbita referred to in Apicius, and if so, what is the
closest cultivated variety to it?
>and a bad edition by Vehling, or so I am told.
This is the only one I've managed to get a hold of. While it does
contain many inaccuracies (including a recipe with green pepper -- I
presume Capsicum and not Piper), it isn't that different from the
recipes on the WWW translated from a German edition (except that
Vehling, like the original, seldom gives quantities). Because
Vehling was a professional chef, his versions of the recipes may be
more palatable than most.
>David Friedman
David Friedman
In article <51fj3u$j...@news.enterprise.net>, hi...@enterprise.net (Donald
Fisk) wrote:
> dd...@best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>
> >Not only is zuccini from the new world, so are all of the common pumpkins
> >and squashes--most of which are varieties of Cucurbita Pepo. There is,
> >however, some sort of edible gourd (possibly lagenaria sicereia [sp?], the
> >white flowered gourd) which appears in european cookbooks and
> >illustrations pre-columbus.
>
> Is this the cucurbita referred to in Apicius, and if so, what is the
> closest cultivated variety to it?
I don't know; Apicius is outside my area of interest. Lagenaria is still
used in Chinese cooking, and we have found what we think is the right
gourd (i.e. it matched the picture in a book on food in China) in a
chinese/vietnamese grocery store. I think the "Italian Edible Gourd" is
also a lagenaria, but am not sure.
> >and a bad edition by Vehling, or so I am told.
> This is the only one I've managed to get a hold of. While it does
> contain many inaccuracies (including a recipe with green pepper -- I
> presume Capsicum and not Piper), it isn't that different from the
> recipes on the WWW translated from a German edition (except that
> Vehling, like the original, seldom gives quantities). Because
> Vehling was a professional chef, his versions of the recipes may be
> more palatable than most.
Terry Nutter is our local expert on this issue. According to her, Vehling
takes enormous liberties with the original, so that what you end up with
are more Vehling's recipes inspired by reading Apicius than actual Roman
recipes. The other translation mentioned earlier in this thread is
supposed to be much better.
David Friedman
Jody C. Patilla
In article <51fj3u$j...@news.enterprise.net>,
Donald Fisk <hi...@enterprise.net> wrote:
>dd...@best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>>Not only is zuccini from the new world, so are all of the common pumpkins
>>and squashes--most of which are varieties of Cucurbita Pepo. There is,
>>however, some sort of edible gourd (possibly lagenaria sicereia [sp?], the
>>white flowered gourd) which appears in european cookbooks and
>>illustrations pre-columbus.
>
>Is this the cucurbita referred to in Apicius, and if so, what is the
>closest cultivated variety to it?
Looks like it is time for a resend of the gourd posting:
Well, I now know more about cucurbits than I had ever planned.
I would say that it seems reasonable to say that most Old European -
Mediterranean "gourds" are genus Lageneria. Indian, or wax gourds, are
Benincasa. Seeds for several varieties of each are available, and wax
gourds (fresh and canned) can be found in Asian groceries (the Chinese
eat them as well as the Indians). The Chinese gourd, mao gwa, is Benincasa
hispida, a relative of another Chinese gourd, the Winter Melon. The
Chinese cee gwa, another gourd sometimes called Chinese okra, is actually
a Luffa, L. acutangula. (for more about luffas, see below)
The Italian "zucchini" Cocozelle, is in fact, Lageneria siceraria -
the small ones are eaten like summer squash, the big ones are allowed to grow
into huge bottle gourds. Seeds Blum lists 3 types, one smooth like a zuke,
one with ridges, and one with spikes. Rebecca Rupp comments in _Blue Corn,
Square Tomatoes_ that the Romans grew them deliberately into long,
grotesque shapes. Pinetree Garden Seeds lists Cucuzzi and Zucchetta
Rampicante-Tromboncino, that is, it grows long and curved like a trombone;
there are pictures here, too. J.L. Hudson, Seedsman, lists Cucuzzi as
Lagenaria species, and also lists Zucchini Costata Romanesca, or Roman
Ribbed Zucchini. Willhite Seeds pictures two pages of "gourds" from India,
of which 3/4 seem to be Lagenaria (really alien looking things, with ridges
and spikes all over) and the others to be the wax gourds, Benincasa - these
are waxy, thick and cylindrical but clearly not C. pepo or C. moschata
or any of those familiar american natives. Willhite also lists two Corsican
gourds, which are markedly oblate and cute as buttons.
In _The Vegetable Garden_ (1885 English edition), Vilmorin lists
seeds for the club gourd, L. clavata; the siphon gourd, L. Cougourda, and
the flat Corsican gourd, L. depressa, as well as for various wax gourds.
The things that the English call vegetable marrows seem to have
originally been lagenaria, and only more recently also zucchinis - Stokes
Seeds in Canada lists 3 varieties (including Cocozelle) as separate items
from their summer squashes and so forth. Thompson & Morgan, the English
seedhouse, lists several "courgettes and marrows", all of which seem to
be New World zucchinis and summer squash. Under "gourds", they list both
Legenaria siceraria (as a Large Bottle Gourd) and Luffa aegyptica (as,
Bathroom Sponge), plus some C. pepo types.
Nichol's Garden Nursery in Oregon lists yet another lagenaria, this
one being L. longissima. They note that the Italians eat them as baby
vegetables. Burpee lists two mixes of "large gourds", both lagenaria
types, and one of "fancy small gourds", C. pepo.
I think that if you were looking for Lageneria gourds, it would
be safe to say that anything called a bottle gourd or a birdhouse gourd
would be one, but that those other little turban type gourds seen at
Halloween are C. pepo, mostly. The code words for Lagenaria in the seed
catalogues seems to be "zucchini-like" and sometimes, "the Italians eat
these as baby vegetables" or "stuffed with meat".
The one other possibility might be luffa or loofah gourds. They
can apparently be eaten like zucchini when very small and tender - it takes
them at least 90 days to reach a point when they can be harvested for bath
sponges. They were common throughout the Middle East and across Asia.
J.L. Hudson lists two varieties, Luffa aegyptica (also, cylindrica) also
known as the dishcloth gourd, and L. Astorii (also, operculata), the wild
luffa. He notes that they are edible when young, but toxic when fully ripe.
Seeds Blum also lists seeds for L. aegyptica.
Note - I believe that all the seed sources mentioned are listed in
the seed catalogue FAQ over in rec.gardens, so please don't write and ask
me to do any more typing!
--
=========================================================================
Jody C. Patilla j...@tis.com
Trusted Information Systems Glenwood, Md.
Bear Field
coffee" (a story involving a goatherd named Kaldi and the aberrant
behavior of his charges in Arabia Felix), Kenneth Davids (in _Coffee:
A Guide to Buying, Brewing, and Enjoying_) states:
"...botanical evidence indicates that _Coffea arabica_
originated on the plateaus of central Ethiopia, several
thousand feet above sea level, where it still grows wild,
shaded by the enormous umbrella-like trees of the
rainforest. How it got from Ethiopia across the Red Sea
to Yemen is uncertain. Given the proximity of the two
regions and a sporadic trading relationship that goes back
to at least 800 B.C., no specific historic event needs to
have been involved. But if one were to be cited, the
leading candidate would appear to be the successful
Ethiopian invasion of Southern Arabia in 525 A.D. ... At
any rate, _Coffea arabica_ seems to have been cultivated in
Yemen from about the sixth century on. Black African
cultures also used coffee beans, but as a solid food,
combined with animal fat, for instance, or chewed like nuts."
While Mr. Davids does not cite HIS sources, his book displays enough
internal consistency that it appears well-researched. [Kenneth Davids,
_Coffee: A Guide to Buying, Brewing, and Enjoying_, 101 Productions/The
Cole Group, Santa Rosa CA, copyright 1976, 1981, 1987, 1991 Kenneth
Davids, ISBN 1-56426-500-5]
--
==> "The Earth is the cradle of mankind, but
Bear one cannot remain in the cradle forever."
bsf...@access.digex.net -- Konstantin Tsiolkovskiy
http://www.access.digex.net/~bsfield/
David Friedman
> At
> any rate, _Coffea arabica_ seems to have been cultivated in
> Yemen from about the sixth century on. Black African
> cultures also used coffee beans, but as a solid food,
> combined with animal fat, for instance, or chewed like nuts."
>
> While Mr. Davids does not cite HIS sources, his book displays enough
> internal consistency that it appears well-researched.
What Hattox said, as I recall, was that there was a minority opinion
placing the origin of coffee in the Yemen, but that the majority (and his)
opinion was that it originated in Ethiopia and only came into the Yemen c.
1400. It would be interesting to know what the sources are that the two
authors are relying on for their different opinions.
David Friedman
Donald Fisk
dd...@best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>I don't know; Apicius is outside my area of interest. Lagenaria is still
>used in Chinese cooking, and we have found what we think is the right
>gourd (i.e. it matched the picture in a book on food in China) in a
>chinese/vietnamese grocery store. I think the "Italian Edible Gourd" is
>also a lagenaria, but am not sure.
Thanks for the lead. I may be able to get it (Wu Lu Gua) from my
local Chinese supermarket, to use in the cucurbita recipes. I bought
some lotus root (believed to be colocasium) there today.
>Terry Nutter is our local expert on this issue. According to her, Vehling
>takes enormous liberties with the original, so that what you end up with
>are more Vehling's recipes inspired by reading Apicius than actual Roman
>recipes. The other translation mentioned earlier in this thread is
>supposed to be much better.
Vehling gives the impression of being a straight translation of the
original, with interpretation in footnotes, which I sometimes
disregard. However, often the original text (which is not supplied)
is vague, and I'd rather have an interpretation put on it by a
competent chef with a knowledge of Latin, than a Latin scholar with a
knowledge of cooking, as in the end I want something that's worth
eating. I'll try to get a hold of some of the other books
recommended though.
Yes, he does get ingredients wrong, and is vague about others, but you
find out about these in various ways. I had my doubts about his use
of pumpkin (Cucurbita species), as the text refers to squeezing out
the water, which can't be done to pumpkins. Apicius clearly had some
other gourd in mind, and in any case, all Cucurbita species are from
the New World. Vehling thought that colocasium was taro or a closely
related species, though from what I've heard elsewhere, it's lotus
(Nelumbo).
Donald Fisk
dd...@best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
>In article <51a9af$6...@news.enterprise.net>, hi...@enterprise.net (Donald
>Fisk) wrote:
>> Apicius refers to tractum in a couple of his recipes, which is a type
>> of pasta, so it goes back to Roman times.
>The problem, of course, is how do you know that "tractum" is a type of
>pasta. Charles Perry published an article in PPC some years back, in which
>he considered the question of pasta in classical antiquity and concluded
>that there was no clear evidence for its existence.
The Hunterian Museum at the University of Glasgow, which displayed
some Roman artefacts found near Antonine's Wall, stated on one of
their exhibits that the Romans did eat pasta. They may of course be
wrong, but I'd expect them to have at their disposal archaeologists
who are experts on Roman lifestyle.
Barry Shein
Ok, this goes on and on.
Is it possible that what's happened here is that the story about Marco
Polo has been broadened from something specific, maybe fancy shaped
pastas, macaroni, to pasta in any form? And then, once broadened, some
take up the easier task of knocking down that straw man?
Where is any of this documented? What are the original or earliest
sources for this Marco Polo story and what, precisely, was claimed
(and preferably in the original language)? Anyone know?
It seems to me as though pasta, per se, is too trivial to have been
missed by any reasonably sophisticated society which used wheat. But
perhaps some specific tradition, like extruding it into fancy shapes
or some such, was introduced at a later date.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | b...@world.std.com | http://www.std.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Robert G Rae
The oldest known word for Pasta is said to be Maccarunne and is believed
to derive from the Scicilian dialect word Maccare, meaning to crush, but
some say it is more likely that the Greeks brought Pasta to Scicily
through a dish called makaria, that was served at funeral feasta . The
gReeks were believed to be making a type of tagliatelle and lasagne 600
years before Christ and it was under the Greeks that the Scicilians first
gained a reputation for cullinary excellence
David Friedman
In article <324885...@online.rednet.co.uk>, Robert G Rae
<bob...@online.rednet.co.uk> wrote:
> The
> gReeks were believed to be making a type of tagliatelle and lasagne 600
> years before Christ
What is the evidence on which this belief is based?
David Friedman
Robert G Rae
David Friedman wrote:
> =
> In article <324885...@online.rednet.co.uk>, Robert G Rae
> <bob...@online.rednet.co.uk> wrote:
> =
> > The Greeks were believed to be making a type of tagliatelle and lasagne=
600 years before Christ
> =
> What is the evidence on which this belief is based?
> =
> David Friedman
> The Book of Ingedients (Adrian Bailey, Elizabeth lambert Ortiz and =
Helena Radecka, Dorling Kindersley 1980) suggests pasta is probably =
indigenous to Italy, having been developed by the Etruscans from a Greek =
recipe - a dough cake cut into stripes called laganon, from which the =
word lasagna was derived. One of the earliest words for pasta was =93tri,=94=
=
says the book, which comes from the Arabic =93itriya,=94 meaning string. Tr=
i =
was used as a description of spaghetti - literally =93little threads,=94 it=
=
adds.
By the 15th century, pasta was known as vermicelli - little worms - and, =
in Sicily, =93maccheroni=94 - a word which the book says is of disputed =
origin.
Ada Boni, in Italian Regional Cooking, originally pubished by Arnoldo =
Mondadori (1969), an English version of which was published in 1982, says =
records dating back to 1250 talk of =93maccaruni=94 the name, which she =
states, was given to the original pasta. She adds that although Naples is =
now the main pasta making centre it is =93in Sicily that it was first =
made.=94
Valentina Harris, in her book Southern Italian Cooking (Pavilion Books, =
1993) describes the cuisine of Sicily as =93probably the oldest cuisine of =
the whole (Italian) country.
=93The most Italian of all foods - pasta itself - was first created on this=
=
beautiful island,=94 she says, suggesting that this happened during the =
time of Arab domination. She says the oldest known word for pasta is =
=93maccarunne=94 from the Sicilian word =93maccare=94, meaning =93to crush=94=
- =93here =
referring to the crushing of the grain in order to make the dough.=94
Giuseppe Mantovano in La Cucina Italiana (Newton Compton editori 1985) =
also suggests the Arabs as a source of pasta, talking of Bedouin women =
=93le donne dei carovanieri=94 producing cylinders of dried pasta =
(cannellone?) as a means of preserving food.
However, the Encyclopedia of Italian Cooking, published by Octopus in =
1981, with contributions from Susanna Agnelli, Ricardo do Corato, Maria =
Casati, Ilaria Rattazzi, Bruno Roncarati and general editor Jeni Wright, =
asserts that the Romans ate pasta as long ago as the fourth or fifth =
century BC and =93therefore=94 most people believe that the Etruscans =
introduced pasta into Italy.
Returning to Sicily, the Greeks were one of the earliest invaders, =
folowed by the Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Normans and Spaniards.
The Sikans were considered by the Greeks to be the earliest inhabitants =
of the island, say Dana Facaros and Michael Pauls in their guidebook to =
Sicily (Cadogan 1994), but were =93probably Iberians who came from Spain or=
=
Africa in the Early Bronze Age.=94 They were followed by the Sikels - who =
chased the Sikans out of East Sicily circa 1200 BC. According to Facaros =
and Pauls, the Sikans were called the zakkala in ancient Egyptian records =
and were thought to be one of the sea people wandering around the =
Mediterranean causing trouble after the fall of Troy.
Sicilian patriots, say Facaros and Pauls, claim the Sikans invented =
pasta, but they are more inclined to the idea that the origins of pasta =
were Greek. They highlight the dish called =93makaria,=94 served at Greek =
funeral feasts as the =93ancestor of maccherone.=94 The Greeks, they add, =
were turning out something like tagliatelle and lasagna circa 600 BC.
David Friedman
In article <3255CC...@online.rednet.co.uk>, Robert G Rae
<bob...@online.rednet.co.uk> wrote:
Someone wrote:
> > > The Greeks were believed to be making a type of tagliatelle and lasagne=
> 600 years before Christ
I asked:
> > What is the evidence on which this belief is based?
Robert G Rae responded with a long summary of different conclusions
offered by different secondary sources. But he did not offer any actual
evidence, at least in the sense in which I was asking for it. For example,
he writes:
>"They highlight the dish called =93makaria,=94 served at Greek =
> funeral feasts as the =93ancestor of maccherone.=94 The Greeks, they add;
> were turning out something like tagliatelle and lasagna circa 600 BC."
This tells me nothing at all about why the people he is citing think that
"makaria" was a pasta. What information about the dish eaten then, or
about what the Greeks were producing circa 600 BC, makes these writers
think that they were pasta? What is their evidence?
> recipe - a dough cake cut into stripes called laganon, from which the =
>
> word lasagna was derived. One of the earliest words for pasta was =93tri,=94=
The etymology I have seen is from the medieval "Losinges," a pasta dish
for which we have surviving recipes. And the etymology of that word, as
best I remember, is from Arabic.
David Friedman
Shez
In article <ddfr-04109...@ddfr.vip.best.com>, David Friedman
<dd...@best.com> writes
My history books must be wrong, ( not a suprising thing) but I always
thought that pasta was originally from china, based on the noodle and
was brought back by Marco polo
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------
David Friedman
> My history books must be wrong, ( not a suprising thing) but I always
> thought that pasta was originally from china, based on the noodle and
> was brought back by Marco polo
> --
> Shez
Lots of people think that, but it isn't very plausible. Pasta was in use
in the Middle East long before Marco Polo, and appears in European
cookbooks roughly contemporary with him--i.e. the earliest post-Roman
non-Islamic cookbooks we have.
David Friedman
fatlo...@gmail.com
> A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
> the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
> brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
>
> I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
> introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
> tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
>
Pizza was invented in New York city around the turn of the early twentieth century by italian immigrants thats why New York pizza is the thin crust. Mant variations of the pizza have come from various parts of the United states such as chicago style thick pizza as well as Detroit style square deep dish pizza.I lived in Las Vegas years ago and ate at a local pizza place called Boston pizza it was the best I have eaten.
fatlo...@gmail.com
> Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>
> : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
>
> pasta was oten cooked in meat broth and served with cheese.
>
> is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
> Marco Polo.
>
> Respectfully,
> David Tallan
> tal...@io.org
great info I just now learned thanks.
ne...@panix.com
>On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, David Tallan wrote:
>> Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>>
>> : I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
>> : introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
>> : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
there is a lasagne precursor called (with various spellings) 'losyns' which is
thin flour dough, layered with broth and cheese. There's a recipe in the
14th c. English recipe collection family usually called 'Forme of Cury' for
this. There's another recipe in the same collection called 'Makerouns' which
is for another fresh pasta dish, with cheese and better.
For Italy in particular, there are some 14th and 15th century MS with some
pasta recipes. Libro per Cuoco has an herb,cheese, and egg filled ravioli,
for example, served topped with more cheese.
Barbara Santich, in 'The Original Mediterranean Cuisine' points out that
the term 'pasta' is late, but the food stuff was known since the fifth
century by the Greek term ittria, and may have been an orzo type. It was
commercially availble by the 14th century in Italy. She notes
that the standard way of cooking was in stock, or in water with salt
and some sort of lipid. Usually served with grated cheese, and sometimes
spices, as in the English recipes above.
JB
------------
Jeff Berry - http://www.aspiringluddite.com - food, musings, etc.
"I don't need TV when I got T-Rex" - Mott the Hoople
ne...@panix.com
>> Ian Menzies (men...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>>
>> : I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
>> : introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
>> : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
pasta recipes. Libro per Cuoco has an herb,cheese, and egg filled ravioli,
for example, served topped with more cheese.
Barbara Santich, in 'The Original Mediterranean Cuisine' points out that
the term 'pasta' is late, but the food stuff was known since the fifth
century by the Greek term ittria, and may have been an orzo type. It was
commercially availble by the 14th century in Italy. She notes
that the standard way of cooking was in stock, or in water with salt
and some sort of lipid. Usually served with grated cheese, and sometimes
In Medieval English cuisine, there are also some pasta-type dishes.
There is a lasagne precursor called (with various spellings) 'losyns' which is
14th c. English recipe collection family usually called 'Forme of Cury' for
this. There's another recipe in the same collection called 'Makerouns' which
Rob M
> A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
> the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
> brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
> introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
> tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?