FAQ: SABATIER WAS: Re: Sabatier Carbon Steel knives - Where? (LONG}
Brian Costlow
A Short Sabatier FAQ.
Note. I'm a 'Merkin' and the doc is slanted that way. If you
live outside the States, YMMV.
1. Why all the confusion about the origin of Sabatier knives?
Well, that kind of thing can happen when you deal with an older
European brand. Multiple trademarks are established with the same
name, especially in cases where a surname is part of the mark.
Then again, many old European surnames just describe a tradesman's
trade. You can see where this is going. . .
You can't turn around in Austria/Germany/Switzerland without
tripping over a "Lowenbrau" brewery, for instance.
It's the design of the mark itself, what we would call a logo,
that usually differentiates one similarly named product from
another.
I recently have heard (from a US cutlery retailer) that there
are "at least a half-dozen" French companies using the name
Sabatier in France. I don't know about that for sure, but I do know
of two that have registered "marques" dating back to the early
1800s: Lion Sabatier and K Sabatier. Also Thiers-Issard uses the
Sabatier name on most of its products. (See: What about the
Elephant? below).
[ Source: Lion Sabatier, Scott & Sargeant Cookware in the UK;
K Sabatier, friend's personal collection. ]
But that's not the only thing that causes the confusion. Another
French firm, "Societe Maxime Girard" owns the US Trademark Registration.
That means that in the US, a "Sabatier" knife is one that has licensed
the name from Societe Maxime Girard. I have no info at this time
on how many licensees exist.
[ Source: US Patent and Trademark Office ]
2. How do I tell if it's a good knife or not.
There's only one way. The way to determine the quality is
to get the knife in your hands. If you can't do that, I would hesitate to
buy one.
That being said, I will make comments on two brands.
"K Sabatier".
A friend of mine got these overseas, but not in France (somewhere in
the Pacific while on deployment.) They are every bit as nice as the
Victorinox made "French-shape" knives I got from Professional Cutlery
Direct. I don't think there is a US source for these. I need to get updated
info, but IIRC they ARE made in France, and have a lifetime guarantee.
"Cuisine De France Sabatier".
This is probably the "Sabatier" that most 'Merkins are familiar with.
"Cuisine De France" is essentially a brand marketing company. It imported
knives from other makers under its own label. I have one, a Chef's knife
from the Grand Chef collection. It's a nice knife. The blade is a hybrid
between the "Traditional French Shape" and "German Shape". I will
admit that I don't use it much, as I like my French Shapes unless I'm
really going to be rocking to mince, and then I reach for a deep
German-shape blade.
In 1992, "Cuisine De France" (CDF) was acquired by The Forschner Group.
It was run as a wholly-owned subsidiary. The Forschner Group also imported
Victorinox's "Swiss Army Knives" and Victorinox food service knives to the
US. (The latter sold under the R.H Forschner brand name). The Forschner
Group changed its name to "Swiss Army Brands Inc." and expanded
into watches and other "Swiss Army" branded merchandise. It sold CDF
assets, debts, inventory and the name rights to a company called
"Sabatier USA LLC" in Jan. 1997. During the Forschner/Swiss Army
period, at least three French cutlery makers actually made the knives.
(This may be part of the reason that newsgroup reports on the quality
of CDF Sabatier vary so widely). I was unable to determine if any of these
companies were also ones that were using the Sabatier name in France.
[Source: SEC filings and Swiss Army Brands Inc. annual reports ]
I am unsure of exactly what happened next, but "Sabatier USA LLC"
disappeared. Contacting "Swiss Army Brands Inc." about the product, I was
referred to a company called "Excel Retroneu Farberware Tableware Sabatier".
Excel (as I'll refer to them from now on) told me that they acquired the
"CDF Sabatier" line in July 1998, and were importing knives from the same
manufacturers used when CDF was part of Forschner.
[ Source: Swiss Army Brands and Excel phone conversations.]
3. What about the Elephant?
There was mention in several r.f.c posts about Sabatier knives with an
Elephant and 4 Stars. Thiers-Issard uses this marque, their knives are
available through PCD, but they are not using the "Sabatier" name on
the ones in the PCD catalog. However, they are the same manufacturer.
Thiers-Issard is probably one of the best known and most-highly regarded
cutlery firms outside the US.
I chose not to comment on them in section 2 because I've never
had my hands on one. Keylan in Georgia has the ones that actually say
"Sabatier" on their webpage. Lee Valley Tools is also selling Thiers-Issard
Sabatier knives. See below.
4. How about those "Lee Valley Tools" knives.
Lee Valley is selling both a stock of antique Sabatier knives as well
as new knives from Thiers-Issard's "Maītre de cuisine" line.
The antiques were from an old factory filled with unsold knives
made between 1925 and 1950, and were made by Thiers-Issard.
The Lee Valley webpage reports that the stock of antique carbon
steel knives is nearly exhausted.
5. Where to Buy
5.1 K Sabatier
(Unknown)
5.2 Lion Sabatier
Scott and Sargeant Cookware (UK)
www.scottsargeant.com
5.3 Sabatier (Elephant and 4 Stars Logo--
Made by Thiers-Issard).
Lee Valley Tools
www.leevalley.com
Antique carbon steel and new stainless.
Limited supply of antique knives
Keylan
www.keylan.com
Showing a line of stainless Sabatier knives with the
Thiers-Issard logo. Not sure which line it is, the bolster
looks odd for a "French shape" blade.
Professional Cutlery Direct
www.cutlery.com
New stainless and new carbon steel, have "Elephant &
4 Stars" marque, but name "Thiers-Issard" on blade.
Note: The website is not up to date as of 4/19/98, the
latest 98 printed catalog is substantially different. However
PCD did have some "CDF Sabatier" in stock as well--though
it was not in the printed catalog. Their salesperson indicated
that at this time there was no plan to get more CDF from Excel,
and when the stock is gone, it's gone.
5.4 Cuisine de France Sabatier
Is now part of a new company:
Excel Retroneu Farberware Tableware Sabatier
They may be reached at (516) 794 3355
The product may be purchased through
A Cook's Ware's
www.cookswares.com
Bed Bath & Beyond.
Carries sets, but will special order any knife
according to Excel
6. A Couple of Mysteries (or three).
6.a
Societe Maxime Girard, who holds the Sabatier trademark,
also has a US Reg Trademark on the phrase "Professional Sabatier"
and a graphic logo using the those words The logo is strikingly similar
to the "Lion Sabatier" logo as shown on the Scott & Sargeant web
site, but I haven't dug up a connection yet. Anyone have more
info?
6.b
Is K Sabatier still around? What about other manufacturers?
Does anyone have a definitive answer or pointer to this info?
6.c
The quality issue. One of the things that I keep hearing is "be
careful buying Sabatier, lots of companies make it and some of
it is junk". In all my searching, I only found one instance of
non-forged cutlery using the Sabatier name. This was "CDF"
cutlery in a stamped "never needs sharpening" line. Although
not all forged cutlery is created equal, certainly just being
a forged knife gets the product ahead of 90% of what I see
in US stores (which is mostly stamped crap).
So was the "some of it is junk" line created by rival French firms with
good product trying to carve market share? Or was there really
bad Sabatier-branded product before my time?
7. Why did you write this?
I'm a curious guy with a bloated kitchen knife collection, so I
started poking about on all this Sabatier business. I welcome
corrections and additional info.
If enough trickles in, I'll redo it and put it on the web.
I am not affiliated with any of the companies mentioned here.
NOTE: To contact me you have to remove the spamguard.
Monty Python should be able to tell you how.
Brian
John Schiaparelli
John
--
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Brian Costlow wrote in message <01be1720$7430cc60$530e4dc6@caralite>...
aem
> What, pray tell, is a Merkin?
As in Lyndon Johnson, "My fellow 'Merkins'. --aem
Young
>
> What, pray tell, is a Merkin?
>
> John
(laugh) Well, not what they meant, but some people find it funny to
shorten American.
We've been throught the (what's a merkin) discussion already. It's
not! an American.
nancy
t r i l l i u m
~6. A Couple of Mysteries (or three).
What about the Le Creuset Sabatier knives? (see
http://www.outletsonline.com/lecreuset/sabatier.html)
~7. Why did you write this?
~
~I'm a curious guy with a bloated kitchen knife collection, so I
~started poking about on all this Sabatier business. I welcome
~corrections and additional info.
Nice job.
regards,
trillium
Judy
>
> John Schiaparelli wrote:
>
> > What, pray tell, is a Merkin?
>
And he's probably a bidnisman as well.
Larry Burdick
knew there was such a thing!
- Larry
aem wrote in message <3659EC17...@worldnet.att.net>...
>John Schiaparelli wrote:
>
>> What, pray tell, is a Merkin?
>
RugRat
come true.
RR
Young wrote:
>
> John Schiaparelli wrote:
> >
> > What, pray tell, is a Merkin?
> >
> > John
>
Richard Britton
I almost fell of my modem when I read this.
A merkin, my dear fellows, is old/medieval English for a pubic wig...how
this has found its way on a thread for Sabatier knives only my most-prized
peacock feathered merkin will know.
Regards.
Richard Britton.
Richard Britton
made in this post.
Up until a few years ago Lion Sabatier was known as Maxime Girard, the Lion
brand was resurrected after years of neglect.
Sabatier was a brand developed in Thiers, previously the knife making
capital of Europe if not the world and the Lion brand was the original since
1812. Because of French heriditary laws, the company was inherited jointly
by two brothers. In time, one part of the family sold the rights of the
Sabatier name to other manufacturers (bothin France and elsewhere) wjilst
the other part stuck to its traditions and continued to make knives to the
original family high quality and specification. The Lion brand eventually
became branded Maxime Girard until the reverse as mentioned above a few
years ago.
Hence you will find the original tradition and quality still found in Lion
Sabatier and other 'Sabatier' branded knives - some good and some pretty
awful detractors.
I regard Lion Sabatier as the original and this range is certainly our
best-selling range despite the arrival and phenominal success of Global.
Collectors are particularly enthused by the availability of both stainless
and carbon stell knives.
Regards,
Richard Britton.
d-con
Richard Britton wrote in message
<912040820.22847.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
Rodger Whitlock
<richard...@scottsargeant.com> wrote:
>What is a Merkin !!!
>
>I almost fell of my modem when I read this.
>
>A merkin, my dear fellows, is old/medieval English for a pubic wig...how
>this has found its way on a thread for Sabatier knives only my most-prized
>peacock feathered merkin will know.
Those of us residing outside the US may also use "Merkin" as short for
"American." Ditto for "murrican."
Context rules!
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Leah Zeldes
> Those of us residing outside the US may also use "Merkin" as short for
> "American." Ditto for "murrican."
>
> Context rules!
>
> --
> Rodger Whitlock
> Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Brian Costlow's self-descriptive use aside, citizens of
the USA (particularly those who know what a merkin is)
tend to feel it ranks in offensiveness with "Canuck." I
suppose some Canadians don't mind that, either.
A friend of mine who emigrated from Toronto and is still
somewhat inclined to be annoyed at the United States'
appropriation of a term he feels rightfully belongs to
citizens of three continents, likes to use "USian"
(pronounced "yoo-ess-ee-in").
Leah Z.
aem
> [snip] citizens of the USA (particularly those who know what
> a merkin is) tend to feel it ranks in offensiveness with
> "Canuck." I
> suppose some Canadians don't mind that, either.
Surely this is too broad a generalization. I'm a citizen, as are
the majority of my friends, and none of us would find either
'Merkin' or 'Amurrican' offensive. Personally, being 'context
sensitive' like an earlier poster, I think of 'Merkin' as an
allusion to the great Dr. Strangelove movie, and the other an
allusion to the strange speech of ElBeeJay. --aem
Bob Norton
wig for the genitalia to replace hair lost to disease or shaved off to fight
infestations of lice. Really.
d-con
for the same afflictions, or even to enhance one's apparent virility.
Bob Norton wrote in message <74hd5d$9t0$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Leesa
hand and scribed:
>A "merkin" is a wig or a mop used to swage a cannon. In the dark ages it was a
>wig for the genitalia to replace hair lost to disease or shaved off to fight
>infestations of lice. Really.
>
>
In most newsgroups, it is used as (somewhat derogatory) slang for
"American".
Miche and Dave
wrote:
I tend to (sometimes, not often) say 'merkins (note the ') and I _never_
mean it in a derogatory way. It's sorta like saying Aussie instead of
Australian (or Kiwi instead of New Zealander) in my book.
Miche
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