Brettanomyces and Guinness

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Brendan Halpin

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Mar 8, 2006, 6:43:11 AM3/8/06
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Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
mailto:brendan...@ul.ie http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

Joel

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Mar 8, 2006, 9:10:55 AM3/8/06
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Brendan Halpin <brendan...@ul.ie> wrote:
>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
>Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
>that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.
>--
>Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland

You know who would know? The folks that brew it. All
you have to do is find somebody who lives in Ireland and
have him or her knock up the brewers and ask.
--
Joel Plutchak "People who drink wine with barbecue deserve to be
plutchak@[...] jeered at and socially ostracized." - Mike Stewart

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 8, 2006, 11:09:33 AM3/8/06
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plut...@see.headers (Joel) writes:

> Brendan Halpin <brendan...@ul.ie> wrote:
>>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
>>Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
>>that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.
>>--
>>Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
>
> You know who would know? The folks that brew it. All
> you have to do is find somebody who lives in Ireland and
> have him or her knock up the brewers and ask.

There's geography and there's networks, so it's not as near as that
in social space. And they seem a secretive bunch, those Guinness
technologist-brewers (just ask Gossett). No brewery tours, just a
Guinness-image museum.

B


--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland

The Submarine Captain

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Mar 8, 2006, 2:21:01 PM3/8/06
to
Brendan Halpin a écrit :

>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
>Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
>that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.
>

Dublin Brewed Guinness Foreign Extra reportedly is a mix of an aged beer
with a younger brew. It does have a slight "horse blanket" edge to it.


--
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Chien, cette nuit je fis un splendide cauchemar : c'était une rue, et chacun de ses deux trottoirs avait un potentiel énergétique différent !! et dix harengs !
(F'murrr)

Laurent Mousson, Berne, Switzerland

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 8, 2006, 2:35:41 PM3/8/06
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The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:

> Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>
>>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
>>Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
>> that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.
>>
> Dublin Brewed Guinness Foreign Extra reportedly is a mix of an aged
> beer with a younger brew. It does have a slight "horse blanket"
> edge to it.

That's the one consistent note in all the myth. Even Wheeler and
Protz say so. I must get hold of some again. But somehow I cannot
see it (memories of the abandonment of bottle conditioning make me
sceptical).

Steve Jackson

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Mar 9, 2006, 12:14:15 AM3/9/06
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"Joel" <plut...@see.headers> wrote in message
news:dumolf$k0k$1...@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu...

> You know who would know? The folks that brew it. All
> you have to do is find somebody who lives in Ireland and
> have him or her knock up the brewers and ask.

You mean like, I'm not going to stay with you and you're going to have to
raise the baby alone if you don't tell me the secret of Guinness and
Brettanomyces?

-Steve


Joel

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Mar 9, 2006, 9:31:20 AM3/9/06
to

Whew. I was starting to worry that nobody would
take the bait. Good on ya.

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 9, 2006, 11:35:21 AM3/9/06
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For reference, I found this quoted in HBD #2672:

> "Foreign Extra Stout, FES
> for short, ... is stored in the [two old oak] vats for one
> to three months where it picks up lactic flavours from the action
> of wild Brettanomyces yeasts. This is stale beer in the historic
> meaning of the word. It is blended with young stout and then the
> bottles are stored for another month before being released for
> sale."
> Protz,R.,The Ale Trail,Eric Dobby Publishing, Kent, 1995. pp174-6.

Pretty specific, but I still have my doubts. Still, I know where I
can pick up a few bottles on my way home...

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 9, 2006, 6:02:49 PM3/9/06
to
Brendan Halpin <brendan...@ul.ie> writes:

> For reference, I found this quoted in HBD #2672:
>
>> "Foreign Extra Stout, FES
>> for short, ... is stored in the [two old oak] vats for one
>> to three months where it picks up lactic flavours from the action
>> of wild Brettanomyces yeasts. This is stale beer in the historic
>> meaning of the word. It is blended with young stout and then the
>> bottles are stored for another month before being released for
>> sale."
>> Protz,R.,The Ale Trail,Eric Dobby Publishing, Kent, 1995. pp174-6.
>
> Pretty specific, but I still have my doubts. Still, I know where I
> can pick up a few bottles on my way home...

... and I can certainly say that it has a background tartness that
makes for excellent balance (unlike, say, beers I've brewed at this
sort of ABV which verged on cloying). I can't say that I detect
anything specifically equine, but it is about 12 hours past the
ideal tasting time. (Note to self: save other bottle for Saturday
elevenses.)

The Submarine Captain

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Mar 12, 2006, 5:02:50 PM3/12/06
to
Brendan Halpin a écrit :

>The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:
>
>
>
>>Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>>
>>
>>
>>>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>>>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their stouts.
>>>Googling hits repeated replications of a quote from Martin Lodahl
>>>that suggests they do, but there is very little corroboration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Dublin Brewed Guinness Foreign Extra reportedly is a mix of an aged
>>beer with a younger brew. It does have a slight "horse blanket"
>>edge to it.
>>
>>
>
>That's the one consistent note in all the myth. Even Wheeler and
>Protz say so. I must get hold of some again. But somehow I cannot
>see it (memories of the abandonment of bottle conditioning make me
>sceptical).
>
>

Note that they mention *aging*, not specifically brettanomyces. Even
older bottles of Lion Stout (from Sri Lanka) do tend to develop such an
edge over time.

--
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Aah, on voit bien qu'il n'est plus que l'ombre de lui-même... Il s'en va avant même que l'on commence à se disputer !

Scott Kaczorowski

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Mar 16, 2006, 4:27:02 PM3/16/06
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The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> wrote in
news:441499ab$1...@news.bluewin.ch:

> Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>
>>The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>>>>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their
>>>>stouts. Googling hits repeated replications of a quote
>>>>from Martin Lodahl that suggests they do, but there is
>>>>very little corroboration.
>>>>
>

> Note that they mention *aging*, not specifically
> brettanomyces. Even older bottles of Lion Stout (from Sri
> Lanka) do tend to develop such an edge over time.

I suppose the use of Brett is possible, but I doubt they go
to the trouble, 'specially nowadays.

I don't get horse out of Guinness. Everything I taste can be
attributed to malt bill, FG, and serving process.

Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA


Joel

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Mar 16, 2006, 4:34:25 PM3/16/06
to
Scott Kaczorowski <myini...@xb-70.com> wrote:
>The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> wrote in
>> Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>>>The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:
>>>>Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>>>>>Does anyone *know* about whether Guinness really do blend
>>>>>pasteurised Brettanomyces-infected beer into any of their
>>>>>stouts. Googling hits repeated replications of a quote
>>>>>from Martin Lodahl that suggests they do, but there is
>>>>>very little corroboration.
>>
>> Note that they mention *aging*, not specifically
>> brettanomyces. Even older bottles of Lion Stout (from Sri
>> Lanka) do tend to develop such an edge over time.
>
>I suppose the use of Brett is possible, but I doubt they go
>to the trouble, 'specially nowadays.
>
>I don't get horse out of Guinness. Everything I taste can be
>attributed to malt bill, FG, and serving process.

That's the rub. Back not too many years ago, before
Guinness was pasteurized, if there was Brett in the
beer it wouldn't gotten progressively more intense, no?

Scott Kaczorowski

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Mar 18, 2006, 2:26:52 PM3/18/06
to
plut...@see.headers (Joel) wrote in
news:dvcll1$768$1...@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu:

> Scott Kaczorowski <myini...@xb-70.com> wrote:
>>I don't get horse out of Guinness. Everything I taste can
>>be attributed to malt bill, FG, and serving process.
>
> That's the rub. Back not too many years ago, before
> Guinness was pasteurized,

How many years was that?

> if there was Brett in the
> beer it wouldn't gotten progressively more intense, no?

Huh?

I suppose Guinness used (or more likely, had to live with)
Brett (hence that whole blending thing in the bad old
days)...but as Superkid would say: "I don't get you." Have
you (all) noticed an intensifaction of horse in Guinness?

Are you implying that they use it and it gets knocked off at
the desired level during pateurization? Are you implying
that I can find super-horsey old kegs of Guinness somewhere?
If the latter, PLEASE let me know where - that's worth
airfare. If the former, I think you're full of horseshit. I
don't "get" horse in Guinness of any label/package that is
available to me.

As an aside, I have used Brett and my limited experience is
that it does not go logarithmic over time. It's contribution
is relatively short but stable in the long term.

Joel

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Mar 20, 2006, 3:33:18 PM3/20/06
to
Scott Kaczorowski <myini...@xb-70.com> wrote:

>plut...@see.headers (Joel) wrote:
>> Scott Kaczorowski <myini...@xb-70.com> wrote:
>>>I don't get horse out of Guinness. Everything I taste can
>>>be attributed to malt bill, FG, and serving process.
>>
>> That's the rub. Back not too many years ago, before
>> Guinness was pasteurized,
>
>How many years was that?
>
>> if there was Brett in the
>> beer it wouldn't gotten progressively more intense, no?
>
>Huh?
>
>I suppose Guinness used (or more likely, had to live with)
>Brett (hence that whole blending thing in the bad old
>days)...but as Superkid would say: "I don't get you." Have
>you (all) noticed an intensifaction of horse in Guinness?
>
>Are you implying that they use it and it gets knocked off at
>the desired level during pateurization? Are you implying
>that I can find super-horsey old kegs of Guinness somewhere?
>If the latter, PLEASE let me know where - that's worth
>airfare. If the former, I think you're full of horseshit. I
>don't "get" horse in Guinness of any label/package that is
>available to me.

No, my point is simple. Brett doesn't need oxygen,
and can eat just about anything. If the olf Guinness
had Brett, and wasn't pasteurized, the Brett would
continue to work, and old Giunes [sic] would've been
a vary variable beast, getting more horsey as it aged.
Since I (and from lack of reportage, nobody else either)
never encountered that, there was ipso facto no Brett
in Guinness.

>As an aside, I have used Brett and my limited experience is
>that it does not go logarithmic over time. It's contribution
>is relatively short but stable in the long term.

That's not been my experience. But I will have to tap
the keg of plambic that's been sitting in my basement
for about six years to see what has happened to it.

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 20, 2006, 6:17:14 PM3/20/06
to
plut...@see.headers (Joel) writes:

> No, my point is simple. Brett doesn't need oxygen,
> and can eat just about anything. If the olf Guinness
> had Brett, and wasn't pasteurized, the Brett would
> continue to work, and old Giunes [sic] would've been
> a vary variable beast, getting more horsey as it aged.
> Since I (and from lack of reportage, nobody else either)
> never encountered that, there was ipso facto no Brett
> in Guinness.

Joel,

I took your earlier advice (after a fashion) and much to my
surprise got a result:

> From: li...@diageoirl-info.com
> Subject: 189328
> To: brendan...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:54:08 GMT
>
> Dear Brendan
>
> Many thanks for your recent e-mail.
>
> Please see the following information regarding "Soured beer" in FES.
>
> In the past, a version of FES was indeed produced using a
> Brettanomyces maturation step. With changes in the fermentation
> regime in the 1980s, this practice was discontinued. There is
> indeed an acidified beer blended into FES in production - a
> bacterial culture is used to acidify this.
>
> I trust that this information will be useful to you.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Linda - Consumer Helpline

My surprise at getting real facts out of a consumer-oriented
big-beer-brand website is only exceeded by the pleasure of having
my curiosity satisfied.

Joel

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Mar 21, 2006, 2:04:06 PM3/21/06
to
Brendan Halpin <brendan...@ul.ie> wrote:
>plut...@see.headers (Joel) writes:
>> No, my point is simple. Brett doesn't need oxygen,
>> and can eat just about anything. If the olf Guinness
>> had Brett, and wasn't pasteurized, the Brett would
>> continue to work, and old Giunes [sic] would've been
>> a vary variable beast, getting more horsey as it aged.
>> Since I (and from lack of reportage, nobody else either)
>> never encountered that, there was ipso facto no Brett
>> in Guinness.
>
>Joel,
>
>I took your earlier advice (after a fashion) and much to my
>surprise got a result:
>
>> In the past, a version of FES was indeed produced using a
>> Brettanomyces maturation step. With changes in the fermentation
>> regime in the 1980s, this practice was discontinued. There is
>> indeed an acidified beer blended into FES in production - a
>> bacterial culture is used to acidify this.

>My surprise at getting real facts out of a consumer-oriented


>big-beer-brand website is only exceeded by the pleasure of having
>my curiosity satisfied.

Good job! And I will admit to being wrong... and to not
having had Guinness more than once or twice prior to sometime
in the middle 80's.

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 21, 2006, 4:10:07 PM3/21/06
to
plut...@see.headers (Joel) writes:
> Good job! And I will admit to being wrong... and to not
> having had Guinness more than once or twice prior to sometime
> in the middle 80's.

To get back to your earlier points, other sources imply that the
soured beer blended in has always been pasteurised, so increasing
horsiness wouldn't have been a problem. And also, just in case of
misunderstanding, the answer applies to Foreign Export Stout, not
the substantially weaker Extra Stout.

The Submarine Captain

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Mar 22, 2006, 11:52:00 AM3/22/06
to
Brendan Halpin a écrit :

> [...]


>
>And also, just in case of
>misunderstanding, the answer applies to Foreign Export Stout
>
>

Foreign Extra, and the Irish version of it, not the Nigerian or
Mauritian versions. And it should'nt be confused either with Guinness
Special Export, which is a 7,5%er for the Belgian Market.

--
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

..."surgie du fond de son délire, une litote blanche et noire heurta le miroir dans un nuage de débris étincelants, et se rua, griffes dehors, sur le pauvre Vizir ! Elle le mordit cruellement au lobe auriculaire droit, et disparut dans un tiroir..."

Brendan Halpin

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Mar 22, 2006, 4:53:21 PM3/22/06
to
The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:

> Brendan Halpin a écrit :

>>And also, just in case of


>>misunderstanding, the answer applies to Foreign Export Stout
>>
>>
> Foreign Extra, and the Irish version of it, not the Nigerian or
> Mauritian versions. And it should'nt be confused either with
> Guinness Special Export, which is a 7,5%er for the Belgian Market.

Absolutely correct, as I can say after rooting through the
recycling waiting area to check the label, Foreign Extra Stout,
brewed St James's Gate, 7.5%ABV.

So what's different about the Special Export Stout??

Scott Kaczorowski

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Mar 23, 2006, 12:34:00 PM3/23/06
to
plut...@see.headers (Joel) wrote in news:dvn3ie$gnj$1
@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu:

> No, my point is simple. Brett doesn't need oxygen,
> and can eat just about anything. If the olf Guinness
> had Brett, and wasn't pasteurized, the Brett would
> continue to work, and old Giunes [sic] would've been
> a vary variable beast, getting more horsey as it aged.
> Since I (and from lack of reportage, nobody else either)
> never encountered that, there was ipso facto no Brett
> in Guinness.

Huh?

>>As an aside, I have used Brett and my limited experience is
>>that it does not go logarithmic over time. It's
contribution
>>is relatively short but stable in the long term.
>
> That's not been my experience. But I will have to tap
> the keg of plambic that's been sitting in my basement
> for about six years to see what has happened to it.

Let us know. I've got multiple bottles from 02/01 and have
sampled periodically. The horse blanket has diminished over
time.

The Submarine Captain

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Mar 24, 2006, 8:51:05 AM3/24/06
to
Brendan Halpin a écrit :

>The Submarine Captain <laurent...@bluewin.ch> writes:
>
>
>
>>Brendan Halpin a écrit :
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>And also, just in case of
>>>misunderstanding, the answer applies to Foreign Export Stout
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Foreign Extra, and the Irish version of it, not the Nigerian or
>>Mauritian versions. And it should'nt be confused either with
>>Guinness Special Export, which is a 7,5%er for the Belgian Market.
>>
>>
>
>Absolutely correct, as I can say after rooting through the
>recycling waiting area to check the label, Foreign Extra Stout,
>brewed St James's Gate, 7.5%ABV.
>
>So what's different about the Special Export Stout??
>
>

No soured beer in Special Export, which makes it a more one-dimensional.
Up to the early 90s, it was bottle-conditioned, and was also a touch
stronger (8% ABV, now down to 7,5%).
Brewed for the belgian market, distributed by John Martin there. It's a
pretty common sight in France and Switzerland as well.

--
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Et puis... On a lynché trois touristes ! Ouais !

Scott Kaczorowski

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Mar 27, 2006, 12:04:29 PM3/27/06
to
plut...@see.headers (Joel) wrote in news:dvn3ie$gnj$1
@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu:

> Scott Kaczorowski <myini...@xb-70.com> wrote:

> No, my point is simple. Brett doesn't need oxygen,
> and can eat just about anything. If the olf Guinness
> had Brett, and wasn't pasteurized, the Brett would
> continue to work, and old Giunes [sic] would've been
> a vary variable beast, getting more horsey as it aged.

Were this assertion true, breweries and wineries from
California to eastern Europe would be burned down on a daily
basis. Cantillon, Boone, Hanssens...all gain more
horseblanket over time? I wish that it were so because I
love horse/mouse/goat.

>>As an aside, I have used Brett and my limited experience is
>>that it does not go logarithmic over time. It's
contribution
>>is relatively short but stable in the long term.
>
> That's not been my experience.

Your experience is what? Homebrew? Hanssens? Oud Beersel
used to pasteurize it's 'beeks?

I have both purchased beers with Brett and used pure Brett
cultures (several strains). Your assertion that Brett
"continue[s] to work" is bunk. It ejects when it can no
longer find anything to digest (paraphrase: "Brett can eat
anything" is further bunk). Nothing can eat everything.
We'd have low-grade vodka if this were true.

> But I will have to tap
> the keg of plambic that's been sitting in my basement
> for about six years to see what has happened to it.

Did you? Did the horseblanket knock you down?

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