How producing “ethical, zero-harm” plant food for vegans and vegetarians kills more animals than, well, actually killing animals for the purpose of eating them.

[ImStillMags]

Stunning article from Australia. Learned a lot.

http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

[Bryan]

On Jan 1, 4:31 pm, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stunning article from Australia.   Learned a lot.
>

> http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-mor...

I'm curious how they classified animals as "sentient" or not
sentient. Extreme animal "rights" nutcases say that humans don't have
the right to judge which animals are more worthy than other animals,
but their defective, vegan brains don't know what to say when you
point out that to produce their freakin' tofu, thousands of earthworms
get chopped in half by plows, whereas a grass fed cow can produce huge
amounts of cheese with no killing. A grass fed steer can provide huge
amounts of meat with only one killing. If those idiots ever have a
demonstration locally that I find out about, I'm going to make an
effort to be there with a sign that says something like:
VEGANS ARE
EARTHWORM
MURDERERS.

When we lived in Tampa, they picketed the U. of South Florida Med.
School, and I went and bought a raw steak, and ate it raw across the
street from them while yelling insults at their B-12 deficient asses.
I was scared that one of those pallid hippies was going to come across
the street and kick my ass...NOT.

--Bryan

[dsi1]

On Jan 1, 12:31 pm, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stunning article from Australia.   Learned a lot.
>

> http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-mor...

It's obvious to me that we'll be eating meat grown in labs soon.
Growing it on the hoof is just too inefficient and slow. Real meat
will be available only to rich folk. What will meat without a soul
taste? Pretty alien would be my guess.

[Julie Bove]

I was just watching a show on manna and they now think it is a form of
algae. They were growing it and they said it can support life. Imagine
that as your only food source. No thanks!

[Julie Bove]

I was a vegetarian for many years. Yes, I do love animals. And no I do not
think any one animal is better in any way than another animal. I think they
are all here for a reason if to some of us it doesn't seem like a good
reason. But mainly I was a vegetarian because I realized that my stomach
felt a lot better if I didn't eat meat. I do eat some meat now because if I
don't eat it I become anemic. However I now know there is a medical reason
why I don't feel well if I eat meat and I am going to find out at the end of
this month is there is another reason why I become anemic. My dad and my
brother both have a blood disorder that is inherited.

I do know that animals suffer when we kill them for food. But thanks to my
high school biology class, I also know that plants suffer when we cut them
or pick them or burn them or any of the other things we might do to harvest
them or even make the fields ready to grow another crop.

Vegans do not have to be B-12 deficient. I was also a vegan for a brief
period of time. That to me is the best tasting food in the world! But my
stomach couldn't handle it. All vegans have to do is eat nutritional yeast.
And yes I know it is not all vegan. But there is plenty that is.

[Bryan]

On Jan 1, 8:28 pm, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
> I do know that animals suffer when we kill them for food.  But thanks to my
> high school biology class, I also know that plants suffer when we cut them
> or pick them or burn them or any of the other things we might do to harvest
> them or even make the fields ready to grow another crop.

Hahahahahaha! Plants suffering! You're a nutcase. Maybe you had a
kooky high school biology teacher.

--Bryan

[John Kuthe]

Well, plants can have a reaction to being cut, picked, etc. I can't
see how anyone could call that suffering though.

And yes Julie, animals suffer when killed for food. Which is why I
always give thanks at Thanksgiving dinner to the turkey that, albeit
unwillingly, gave it's life that we might have this sumptuous feast!
And then I feast! MMMMMMM!

John Kuthe...

[Miche]

In article
<0cb4aedf-32ec-46fd...@f1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 12:31 pm, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Stunning article from Australia.   Learned a lot.
> >
> > http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-mor...
>
> It's obvious to me that we'll be eating meat grown in labs soon.
> Growing it on the hoof is just too inefficient and slow. Real meat
> will be available only to rich folk.

Maybe where you live. In New Zealand it's still likely to be resaonably
easily available.

> What will meat without a soul
> taste? Pretty alien would be my guess.

If you believe in souls.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

[Miche]

In article <jdr4or$pvl$1...@dont-email.me>,

What do you think spirulina is?

[Julie Bove]

Yucky and smelly. I've never tried it. My mom gagged it down during the
70's. She didn't like it. There was no way I was going to try it.

[Julie Bove]

He hooked up a meter to them to register their feelings.

[John Kuthe]

A "feeling" meter, right? What is the SI unit of suffering?

I'm an electrical engineer as well as a registered nurse, Julie. Talk
to me!

John Kuthe...

[Julie Bove]

I don't remember what it registered. I was 15 at the time. I'm 52 now. I
do know that he had us talk nicely to the plant and play classical music.
When we did these things the meter didn't respond. Then he had us burn and
cut the plant and play loud rock music. Before we did any of these things
we had to announce what we were going to do. Such as... "I'm going to burn
you!"

Not only did the meter respond wildly when we did these things, but after a
few days of doing this, the meter reacted just to our words. So it was
obvious on some level that the plant could tell what was going to happen.

[John Kuthe]

I'll bet it was measuring resistance to electrical current flow, or
maybe even minute electrical charges being produced by the plant. The
latter I've never heard of, but I'm not a plant physiologist either.

Aha! : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28physiology%29

But since a plant does not contain nor possess any type of neural
system such as animals (and humans, since we are animals) have, I
think it's a far stretch to claim plants experience any type of pain
or suffering similar to the way animals (and humans) do.

And I still don't know what your high school biology teacher was
measuring with a meter. And you apparently don't either, just that the
meter was moving.

John Kuthe...

[Julie Bove]

I may have known at the time but I don't remember it now.

[dsi1]

> Hahahahahaha! Plants suffering! You're a nutcase. Maybe you had as

> kooky high school biology teacher.
>
> --Bryan

The idea that plants felt pain and responded to soothing words and even
kind thoughts was a common notion in the late 60s and 70s. That's what
drugs will do for you...

[dsi1]

On 1/1/2012 7:03 PM, Sqwertz wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:51:59 -0800 (PST), dsi1 wrote:
>
>> It's obvious to me that we'll be eating meat grown in labs soon.
>

> Define "soon".
>
> It'll never happen. And we'll never prove it either way.

20 years. My guess is that it's going to be an offshoot of the research
on growing tissue for replacement organs and body parts. Any reason why
you think it won't happen or is this just a random contrary position?

[dsi1]

On 1/1/2012 5:38 PM, Miche wrote:
> In article
> <0cb4aedf-32ec-46fd...@f1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> dsi1<dsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 1, 12:31 pm, ImStillMags<sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Stunning article from Australia. Learned a lot.
>>>
>>> http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-mor...
>>
>> It's obvious to me that we'll be eating meat grown in labs soon.
>> Growing it on the hoof is just too inefficient and slow. Real meat
>> will be available only to rich folk.
>
> Maybe where you live. In New Zealand it's still likely to be resaonably
> easily available.

I think you are right about this.

>
>> What will meat without a soul
>> taste? Pretty alien would be my guess.
>
> If you believe in souls.

Sorry for getting philosophical. I'll do my best to not let it happen
again. :-)

>
> Miche
>

[dsi1]

I just think that given the choice of eating icky green goo or starving
to death, you just might go for the goo. Just remember that "SOYLENT
GREEN IS... PEOPLE!" :-)

[frie...@zoocrewphoto.com]

> VEGANS ARE
> EARTHWORM
> MURDERERS.
>


Don't forget the rodents. Once the plow goes through, the vultures
start showing up for all the squished rodents.

Oh, and just driving around kills bugs. Just look at the windshield.
It is impossible not to kill things even by accident.

[Brooklyn1]

We've been eating laboratory meat for like a century... what do yoose
think SPAM is:
http://www.hormelfoods.com/about/history/default.aspx
Another Laboratory meat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillshire_Farm
Preground stupidmarket mystery meat comes fresh from Frankenstein
Labs.

[Bryan]

On Jan 2, 7:35 am, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>
> We've been eating laboratory meat for like a century... what do yoose
> think SPAM is:http://www.hormelfoods.com/about/history/default.aspx

Many of us do not eat SPAM.

--Bryan

[Bryan]

You seem to know very little about anything.

--Bryan

[Paul M. Cook]

"dsi1" <ds...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
news:4f016e9a$0$27135$882e...@usenet-news.net...

The choice between vegan food and starving to death would pose a
considerably greater choice to me.

Paul

[Bryan]

On Jan 2, 8:46 am, "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote:
> "dsi1" <d...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message

Are you referring of the option of eating the vegans?
>
> Paul

--Bryan

[John Kuthe]

On Jan 2, 8:04 am, Bryan <bryangsimm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 11:20 pm, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:

...

>
> > I may have known at the time but I don't remember it now.
>
> You seem to know very little about anything.
>
> --Bryan

Oh come on now Bryan! She knows the needle on the meter moved in
response to their voices!! This is irrefutable evidence that plants
are sentient sensitive being deserving of our respect and compassion!

I mean, given a few HUGE leaps! ;-)

John Kuthe...

[Paul M. Cook]

"Bryan" <bryang...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b31012ef-f7cb-4a0d...@k10g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

Ewww. No, I meant their fake food products. If I were forced to live on
that crap I would inject Soy-rizo in my veins to end my suffering sooner.

Paul

[John Kuthe]

Vegans are very low fat. Meat's kinda stringy though.

John Kuthe...

[dsi1]

On Jan 2, 7:06 am, Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:

> I'm not going to argue this with you.  It's not going to happen in 20
> or 50 or 100 years.  You're nu
>
> -sw

It's best not to argue the point. You're finally getting smart. Please
continue to not argue the point. It will save us both a lot of
valuable time.
I

[James Silverton]

You know it is already possible to grow bone when the jaw has
insufficient for titanium implants. Your own platelets are injected into
an inserted sterilized dead bone matrix.

--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm *not* not.jim....@verizon.net

[dsi1]

On Jan 2, 4:46 am, "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote:
> "dsi1" <d...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message

I suppose. We could choose between steak and starving too but this
does not tell us anything
about what humans would do to survive.

[John Kuthe]

On Jan 2, 12:12 pm, James Silverton <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
wrote:
...

>
> You know it is already possible to grow bone when the jaw has
> insufficient for titanium implants. Your own platelets are injected into
> an inserted sterilized dead bone matrix.

This makes no sense whatsoever. When the jaw has insufficient WHAT?
for titanium implants? And what does injecting your own platelets into
and inserted INTO WHAT? sterilized dead bone matrix do?

Please type in complete ideas.

John Kuthe...

[dsi1]

On 1/2/2012 8:12 AM, James Silverton wrote:
>
> You know it is already possible to grow bone when the jaw has
> insufficient for titanium implants. Your own platelets are injected into
> an inserted sterilized dead bone matrix.
>

Yes, injecting primordial cells into a matrix of either synthetic or
natural material will probably be a popular way of creating organs or
body parts for transplant. I read that a guy has a trachea made in such
a manner. The part looks like it's made out of spam. :-)

[James Silverton]

The initial matrix can be made with a 3-d printer and can thus be
customized for the recipient.

[dsi1]

That sounds like a nutty idea - good, I like nutty ideas. My
understanding is that the 3D printers use inkjet printer technology.
Maybe it would be possible to print me out a new heart. That would be
just great.

[James Silverton]

Have a look at
http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_printing_a_human_kidney.html

[dsi1]

On 1/2/2012 9:26 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> Have a look at
> http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_printing_a_human_kidney.html
>

The ability to design and create hearing aid shells - the part that fits
into your ear, using computers and 3D printers has revolutionized the
manufacturing and fitting of hearing aids. By using computers we can
make shells that will have enough room to fit the electronic components
and also provide a comfortable fit in the smallest package possible. I
can scan an ear impression and digitally send the info to the
manufacturer as email. What an amazing world this is.

[merryb]

I believe Mythbusters had this on their show, with 4 or so different
greenhouses. They were all the same temp, etc. One had classical
music, another heavy metal, but can't remember the other 2- I'm sure
one was neutral to be used as a control. I seem to recall the heavy
metal one did best...

[dsi1]

I like those results! Now they have to do a segment on the myth that
AC/DC is better than Metallica or Pantera for growing weed.

🎸✌

[dsi1]

On Jan 2, 11:23 am, Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:

> How do you scan an ear impression?  You roll their ear in fingerprint
> ink and then press the side of their head against a piece of paper?
> And then how do you make a 3D model out of that?
>
> -sw

In the slim chance that your question might be in earnest, I will
respond to you this once. Otherwise, I won't be responding to people
that only know how to be negative without adding a single damn thing
of value to the discussion.

The impression of the ear is taken by filling the ear canal using the
same material that dentists use for teeth impressions - a silicone-
based two-part material supplied in cartridges. The resulting
impression is scanned using a Siemens iScan which digitizes the shape
of the impression by taking a series of pictures at varying angles and
using photo analysis software to extrapolate the points in space. The
system is quite accurate.

http://hearing.siemens.com/myiscan/en/iScan.html

[BillyZoom]

On Jan 1, 10:50 pm, John Kuthe <johnkuth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 9:46 pm, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
> > Bryan wrote:
> > > On Jan 1, 8:28 pm, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
> > >> I do know that animals suffer when we kill them for food. But thanks
> > >> to my high school biology class, I also know that plants suffer when
> > >> we cut them or pick them or burn them or any of the other things we
> > >> might do to harvest them or even make the fields ready to grow
> > >> another crop.
>
> > > Hahahahahaha!  Plants suffering!  You're a nutcase.  Maybe you had a

> > > kooky high school biology teacher.
>

> > He hooked up a meter to them to register their feelings.
>
> A "feeling" meter, right? What is the SI unit of suffering?
>
> I'm anelectricalengineeras well as a registerednurse, Julie. Talk
> to me!
>

> John  Kuthe...

You are neither of those things. I don't even believe you have the
degrees, but even if you did, you washed out of the careers. Nobody
can be so unsuccessful with the degrees you claim. People with
something to give to society get a degree and use it. You flit about
like the poof that you are. Your co-workers and employers despise you
so much you have to change careers entirely. See? I'm even getting
carried away myself and imagining you have these degrees. The really
sad thing is that if you really did have these qualifications it would
make you even more pitiful. I prefer to see you as a pathological liar
living in his Mom's basement. That is less embarassing than what you
claim. That you have three degrees and are working only very
marginally in your latest profession. I have never met a BSN who
struggled the way you claim to. The job you claim to have is not even
worthy of an LPN. Maybe a CNA. Is that what you really are, Johnny? A
shit scooper? It's okay. Mommy didn't expect that much from you anyway.

[Paul M. Cook]

"dsi1" <dsi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3e457ed2-918e-4acc...@q17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

Try some Gimme Lean. The check back. Have your will in order and the
number of the nearest ER.

Paul

[Gorio]

'John Kuthe[_3_ Wrote:
> ;1699357']On Jan 1, 9:46*pm, "Julie Bove" julieb...@frontier.com
> wrote:-
> Bryan wrote:-
> On Jan 1, 8:28 pm, "Julie Bove" julieb...@frontier.com wrote:-
> --

> I do know that animals suffer when we kill them for food. But thanks
> to my high school biology class, I also know that plants suffer when
> we cut them or pick them or burn them or any of the other things we
> might do to harvest them or even make the fields ready to grow

> another crop.--
> -
> Hahahahahaha! *Plants suffering! *You're a nutcase. *Maybe you had a
> kooky high school biology teacher.-
>
> He hooked up a meter to them to register their feelings.-

>
> A "feeling" meter, right? What is the SI unit of suffering?
>

> I'm an electrical engineer as well as a registered nurse, Julie. Talk
> to me!
>
> John Kuthe...

sentimeters, duh!!

�If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down?
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.�-Jack
Handey

I enjoy meat and vegetation. I think the dietary essence of humans is
omnivorous. If you wanna eat just carrot sticks, have at it. But when
you start thinking you're fit to jusdge someone with a different diet
from yours, then you might wann check yo-seff.




--
Gorio

[Doug Freyburger]

dsi1 wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:

>> dsi1 wrote:
>
>>> It's obvious to me that we'll be eating meat grown in labs soon.
>

>> Define "soon".
>
>> It'll never happen. And we'll never prove it either way.
>
> 20 years. My guess is that it's going to be an offshoot of the research
> on growing tissue for replacement organs and body parts. Any reason why
> you think it won't happen or is this just a random contrary position?

The trouble is that "soon" and "20 years" number is what has happened
with air cars, nuclear electricity so cheap it does not to be metered,
fusion power and a host of other nice sounding items.

There's currently no good way to make a reasonable estimate of how soon
if ever cultured meat is common on th emarket. In Star Trek it didn't
happen until between ST-TOS and ST-TNG. I'll go with that century.

There's also no way that cultured meat can compete with real meat for
price. Animals are self growing and self replicating. Cultured meat
takes a lot of synthetic chemistry.

[Serene Vannoy]

On 01/02/2012 06:46 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "dsi1"<ds...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
> news:4f016e9a$0$27135$882e...@usenet-news.net...

>> I just think that given the choice of eating icky green goo or starving to
>> death, you just might go for the goo. Just remember that "SOYLENT GREEN
>> IS... PEOPLE!" :-)
>
> The choice between vegan food and starving to death would pose a
> considerably greater choice to me.

That's such bullshit. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are vegan. So
are fruit salad, spaghetti marinara, sorbet, baked potatoes, sourdough
bread, fresh summer watermelon, popcorn, gazpacho, margaritas, a ripe
tomato drizzled with olive oil and topped with basil and roasted garlic,
and on and on. SO many delicious foods.

I'm not a vegan any more, but every time I hear someone spout this "Oh,
I would die rather than eat vegan food" crap, I just feel so dismissive.
You eat vegan food all the time. It hasn't killed you yet.

Serene

--
http://www.momfoodproject.com

[dsi1]

On 1/3/2012 9:52 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> dsi1 wrote:
>> 20 years. My guess is that it's going to be an offshoot of the research
>> on growing tissue for replacement organs and body parts. Any reason why
>> you think it won't happen or is this just a random contrary position?
>
> The trouble is that "soon" and "20 years" number is what has happened
> with air cars, nuclear electricity so cheap it does not to be metered,
> fusion power and a host of other nice sounding items.
>
> There's currently no good way to make a reasonable estimate of how soon
> if ever cultured meat is common on th emarket. In Star Trek it didn't
> happen until between ST-TOS and ST-TNG. I'll go with that century.
>
> There's also no way that cultured meat can compete with real meat for
> price. Animals are self growing and self replicating. Cultured meat
> takes a lot of synthetic chemistry.

My guess is that it's not too difficult to grow a lump of tissue. It's
not like making microprocessor. I'm not sure why you think it can't
compete in price considering the amount of time it takes to grow a cow,
and the resources that's needed, and the amount of processing and
manpower that it takes to get a steak to your table. I'm thinking that
people in the future will be growing steak-like material in their
bathtubs. :-)

I can appreciate your skepticism but it never hurt nobody to dream about
things of the future. We could have never dreamed up this connected,
high speed, digital world 20 years ago, although some did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZb0avfQme8

[dsi1]

My drummer friend is into healthy living and is a vegan. She'd make the
most amazing salads made of things I'd never seen before. She's the only
woman I know that shaves her head and her energy level was always way up
there and she isn't the least bit moody. She could be eating steaks and
hot dogs in secret but if she does, she's good, real good, at leading a
secret life. She's a genuine freak of nature!

Anyway, my point is that it apparently is possible to subsist on plants
and maintain a vibrant life - well, possible but is it probable?

[Michel Boucher]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
news:jdvt33$gmi$1...@dont-email.me:

> Anyway, my point is that it apparently is possible to subsist
> on plants and maintain a vibrant life - well, possible but is
> it probable?

Bill Clinton has gone vegan with the help of Dean Ornish and
Caldwell Esselstyne. He says his energy level is much higher now.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/18/bill.clinton.diet.vegan/index.
html

http://tinyurl.com/43f4o29

I'm surprised this is not a subject for discussion amongst the
denizen of one of the republics to the south of us.

--

If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t
help the poor, either we’ve got to pretend that Jesus
was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge
that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy
without condition, and then admit that we just don’t
want to do it.

Stephen Colbert (via videcormeum)

[dsi1]

On 1/3/2012 11:59 AM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> dsi1<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
> news:jdvt33$gmi$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Anyway, my point is that it apparently is possible to subsist
>> on plants and maintain a vibrant life - well, possible but is
>> it probable?
>
> Bill Clinton has gone vegan with the help of Dean Ornish and
> Caldwell Esselstyne. He says his energy level is much higher now.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/18/bill.clinton.diet.vegan/index.
> html
>
> http://tinyurl.com/43f4o29
>
> I'm surprised this is not a subject for discussion amongst the
> denizen of one of the republics to the south of us.
>

Interesting. I feel you need a guru to guide you through this new
frontier of foods and way of thinking. If I was a rich dude, I'd hire my
vegan drummer friend to be my food preparer.

[Doug Freyburger]

dsi1 wrote:

> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
>> There's also no way that cultured meat can compete with real meat for
>> price. Animals are self growing and self replicating. Cultured meat
>> takes a lot of synthetic chemistry.
>
> My guess is that it's not too difficult to grow a lump of tissue. It's
> not like making microprocessor. I'm not sure why you think it can't
> compete in price considering the amount of time it takes to grow a cow,
> and the resources that's needed, and the amount of processing and
> manpower that it takes to get a steak to your table. I'm thinking that
> people in the future will be growing steak-like material in their
> bathtubs. :-)

Cows grow by eating grass. Cultured meat grows by eating a wide variety
of customized organic chemicals that have to be produced somehow. Sure,
you could build a digester that takes grass, digests it and supplies all
of those amino acids, fatty acids, co-enzymes, vitamins, minerals and on
an on. But getting that digester machine price competive with growing
grass? Not just a bit in the future.

> I can appreciate your skepticism but it never hurt nobody to dream about
> things of the future.

That part's true. I expect designer meats to be on the market in that
time range. Brontosaurus or mastadon burger anyone? But competing with
cows and chickens for price is farther out.

> We could have never dreamed up this connected,
> high speed, digital world 20 years ago, although some did.

I'd been online for 6+ years for that point and I definitely could not
comprehend the exponential growth curve. Heck, in 1980 I was one of the
many people who invented the PDA that year but I projected the prices
out a few years and decided against patenting it. Someone with more
imagination than my did patent it in that year. Now PDAs are obsolate
and have been included in our phones.

The Borg in Star Trek is not as extreme as they seem.

[dsi1]

On 1/3/2012 1:14 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>>> There's also no way that cultured meat can compete with real meat for
>>> price. Animals are self growing and self replicating. Cultured meat
>>> takes a lot of synthetic chemistry.
>>
>> My guess is that it's not too difficult to grow a lump of tissue. It's
>> not like making microprocessor. I'm not sure why you think it can't
>> compete in price considering the amount of time it takes to grow a cow,
>> and the resources that's needed, and the amount of processing and
>> manpower that it takes to get a steak to your table. I'm thinking that
>> people in the future will be growing steak-like material in their
>> bathtubs. :-)
>
> Cows grow by eating grass. Cultured meat grows by eating a wide variety
> of customized organic chemicals that have to be produced somehow. Sure,
> you could build a digester that takes grass, digests it and supplies all
> of those amino acids, fatty acids, co-enzymes, vitamins, minerals and on
> an on. But getting that digester machine price competive with growing
> grass? Not just a bit in the future.

I assume the raw materials for the organic chemicals will be algae. The
reality is that fake meat will just be a way of getting us to eat
SOYLENT GREEN!

>
>> I can appreciate your skepticism but it never hurt nobody to dream about
>> things of the future.
>
> That part's true. I expect designer meats to be on the market in that
> time range. Brontosaurus or mastadon burger anyone? But competing with
> cows and chickens for price is farther out.

I could go for a brontosaurus burger right now. Too bad it only exists
in Flintstones cartoons.

>
>> We could have never dreamed up this connected,
>> high speed, digital world 20 years ago, although some did.
>
> I'd been online for 6+ years for that point and I definitely could not
> comprehend the exponential growth curve. Heck, in 1980 I was one of the
> many people who invented the PDA that year but I projected the prices
> out a few years and decided against patenting it. Someone with more
> imagination than my did patent it in that year. Now PDAs are obsolate
> and have been included in our phones.

PDAs sure were the cat's pajamas but their time in history was
exceedingly short. I suspect that my kids wouldn't know what a PDA was.
Too bad you didn't invent Pop-Tarts. Speaking of which, I could go for a
Pop-Tart right now...

>
> The Borg in Star Trek is not as extreme as they seem.

If the rate of change remains the same as it has been for the last 20
years, we'll probably be right up there with Capt. Kirk in a hundred years.

[Michel Boucher]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
news:jdvuci$oqk$1...@dont-email.me:

> Interesting. I feel you need a guru to guide you through this
> new frontier of foods and way of thinking.

That's what books are for. Nowadays, you can download epub
versions for much less than the price of the original.

[Michel Boucher]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in news:jdvqok$30n$1
@dont-email.me:

> We could have never dreamed up this connected,
> high speed, digital world 20 years ago, although some did.

Thirty or so years ago I organized a conference between my
employer, a lobby group run for the benefit of academic
publications, our member associations and the government funding
body that subsidized their publications.

One of the subjects of discussion was future publishing media (as
opposed to dead tree issue) and how they could be more cost-
effective. One of the participants had already demonstrated that
he could plug in his 300 baud telephone modem down at the hotel
office and check his e-mail on his university server. He could
probably do it in his room too.

The idea that we should move to electronic files in order to save
publishing costs was brought up, one which I wholeheartedly
supported, but the idea was shelved as too extreme. It seems
that one of the most important aspects of getting one's
association journal was not the content as much as the "fondle
factor".

Of course, we have all seen Yeoman Rand bring Captain Kirk a
tablet upon which was inscribed the duty roster, and we saw him
appose his signature. Then later (mostly in DS9) people read
things off thin electronic tablets. This Christmas I bought a
tablet for myself. I have long had a "communicator", one that
flipped open when Kirk spoke to the Enterprise in orbit.

We are living in a Star Trek world. I wonder how we will build
starships when the time comes...

[dsi1]

On 1/3/2012 1:51 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> dsi1<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
> news:jdvuci$oqk$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Interesting. I feel you need a guru to guide you through this
>> new frontier of foods and way of thinking.
>
> That's what books are for. Nowadays, you can download epub
> versions for much less than the price of the original.
>

I don't much care for most books. Self-help books I dislike the most.
When I became a young man, I stopped reading fiction and just read
automobile repair manuals. Before then, I was a voracious reader of
fiction. I don't know why I changed. That's the breaks.

[Michel Boucher]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
news:je03b4$ko8$1...@dont-email.me:

> I assume the raw materials for the organic chemicals will be
> algae. The reality is that fake meat will just be a way of
> getting us to eat SOYLENT GREEN!

Probably yeast. Algae crops are all dedicated to making MSG.

[tert in seattle]

I remember back in the 90s when the conventional wisdom was that
digital data transmission over radio waves would never be feasible.

[dsi1]

On 1/3/2012 2:09 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> dsi1<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in
> news:je03b4$ko8$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> I assume the raw materials for the organic chemicals will be
>> algae. The reality is that fake meat will just be a way of
>> getting us to eat SOYLENT GREEN!
>
> Probably yeast. Algae crops are all dedicated to making MSG.
>

Recycling human waste seems to be a logical step. Logical but disturbing...

[Serene Vannoy]

On 01/03/2012 01:48 PM, dsi1 wrote:

> My drummer friend is into healthy living and is a vegan. She'd make the
> most amazing salads made of things I'd never seen before. She's the only
> woman I know that shaves her head and her energy level was always way up
> there and she isn't the least bit moody. She could be eating steaks and
> hot dogs in secret but if she does, she's good, real good, at leading a
> secret life. She's a genuine freak of nature!
>
> Anyway, my point is that it apparently is possible to subsist on plants
> and maintain a vibrant life - well, possible but is it probable?

I never felt better, physically or emotionally, than when I was a vegan.
I didn't quit doing it because it was making me sickly and frail (anyone
who has seen me -- I'm very, very large -- never again maintained that a
vegan will waste away to nothing). I quit because I began living with
meat-eaters, and it was just easier to go with the flow.

Serene
--
http://www.momfoodproject.com

[frie...@zoocrewphoto.com]

On Jan 3, 11:59 am, Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> On 01/02/2012 06:46 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>

> > "dsi1"<d...@usenet-news.net>  wrote in message

Why would you assume that all people like what you like. The only
things on the list you mentoned that I like are the potato and the
bread. They would need to have butter or some other sauce. I don't
think butter is considered vegan. I do not eat spaghetti without meat.
I could once in a while, but I can't imagine having to eat meatless
meals every day.

I know I am not typical, but I can count the veggies I like on one
hand, and the fruit on the other hand. And I don't like them enough to
eat them several times a week. Eating vegan meals would mean giving up
my staples - meat, cheese, eggs, milk, etc. I can't imagine making
enjoyable meals without those ingredients.

[dsi1]

OTOH, we knew a vegan family whose kids my son used to go to pre-school
with. The 2 boys and the girl were frightfully skinny. Their collar
bones were really sunken in. The mom and dad worked at a local health
food store that was owned by a guru and religious leader. We'd go to
their house and the kids would sing and play those Indian drums. All I
could think was that those kids really could use a burger and fries.

[Jim Elbrecht]

Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:

>On 01/02/2012 06:46 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> "dsi1"<ds...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
>> news:4f016e9a$0$27135$882e...@usenet-news.net...
>
>>> I just think that given the choice of eating icky green goo or starving to
>>> death, you just might go for the goo. Just remember that "SOYLENT GREEN
>>> IS... PEOPLE!" :-)
>>
>> The choice between vegan food and starving to death would pose a
>> considerably greater choice to me.
>
>That's such bullshit. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are vegan. So
>are fruit salad, spaghetti marinara, sorbet, baked potatoes, sourdough
>bread, fresh summer watermelon, popcorn, gazpacho, margaritas, a ripe
>tomato drizzled with olive oil and topped with basil and roasted garlic,
>and on and on. SO many delicious foods.

My daughter caught on real quick. She removed the Oreos from their
wrapper and announced that she had purchased 'Vegan Oreos'. Her
junk-food junkie brother left them alone. He wouldn't even taste
them. Then she left a package out one day when he was in a reading
mood. Ooops! They are naturally vegan. Secret's out- and her Oreos
are evaporating again.

Some of the best chocolates are 'accidentaly vegan'.

I made a vegan greenbean casserole for Christmas-- and have veganized
a lot of things that are just as good as [or better than] the
original.

>I'm not a vegan any more, but every time I hear someone spout this "Oh,
>I would die rather than eat vegan food" crap, I just feel so dismissive.
>You eat vegan food all the time. It hasn't killed you yet.

If I could find a decent vegan mozzarella, the vegan ziti I made last
night with vegan 'hamburger' and 'sausage' would be better, and
healthier, than my original. I can fake the flavor of
parmesan with nutritional yeast-- but we haven't found anything that
melts quite like mozz.

Jim

[Doug Freyburger]

dsi1 wrote:
>
> I don't much care for most books. Self-help books I dislike the most.
> When I became a young man, I stopped reading fiction and just read
> automobile repair manuals. Before then, I was a voracious reader of
> fiction. I don't know why I changed. That's the breaks.

I like reading but have rarely had time for pleasure reading since about
the age of 25. There's so much else to do. Audiobooks and the car
stereo to the rescue! Now I go through a steady supply of books for
pleasure and self betterment.

[Doug Freyburger]

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
> My daughter caught on real quick. She removed the Oreos from their
> wrapper and announced that she had purchased 'Vegan Oreos'. Her
> junk-food junkie brother left them alone. He wouldn't even taste
> them. Then she left a package out one day when he was in a reading
> mood. Ooops! They are naturally vegan. Secret's out- and her Oreos
> are evaporating again.

Hydrox have been vegan forever. I was not aware that Oreos are now
vegan. I thought they didn't use to be.

[David Harmon]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 00:39:34 +0000 (UTC) in rec.food.cooking, tert in
seattle <te...@ftupet.com> wrote,

>I remember back in the 90s when the conventional wisdom was that
>digital data transmission over radio waves would never be feasible.

The first radio transmissions were digital.

[Bob Terwilliger]

Julie wrote:

> I was also a vegan for a brief period of time. That to me is the best
> tasting food in the world!

There are many reasons people become vegan, but never before have I seen
anyone claiming that vegan food tastes good.

Bob

[Bob Terwilliger]

Julie wrote:

> I do not think any one animal is better in any way than another animal.

I do.

Bob

[Bob Terwilliger]

Julie wrote:

>>> Not only did the meter respond wildly when we did these things, but
>>> after a few days of doing this, the meter reacted just to our words.
>>> So it was obvious on some level that the plant could tell what was
>>> going to happen.
>>
>> I'll bet it was measuring resistance to electrical current flow, or
>> maybe even minute electrical charges being produced by the plant. The
>> latter I've never heard of, but I'm not a plant physiologist either.
>>
>> Aha! : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28physiology%29
>>
>> But since a plant does not contain nor possess any type of neural
>> system such as animals (and humans, since we are animals) have, I
>> think it's a far stretch to claim plants experience any type of pain
>> or suffering similar to the way animals (and humans) do.
>>
>> And I still don't know what your high school biology teacher was
>> measuring with a meter. And you apparently don't either, just that the
>> meter was moving.
>
> I may have known at the time but I don't remember it now.

I'm guessing that the meter had nothing to do with the plant, and everything
to do with some kind of remote control wielded by the teacher.

Bob

[Christine Dabney]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:21:20 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
<virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

>There are many reasons people become vegan, but never before have I seen
>anyone claiming that vegan food tastes good.
>
>Bob

You haven't been to Gather in Berkeley...try it. There is a ton of
great vegan food out there....

Christine
--
http://nightstirrings.blogspot.com

[Serene Vannoy]

And I repeat:

fruit salad
spaghetti marinara
sorbet
baked potatoes
sourdough bread
fresh summer watermelon
popcorn
gazpacho
margaritas

a ripe tomato drizzled with olive oil and topped with basil and roasted
garlic

And for good measure:

ripe raspberries
tomato soup
bean burritos
oatmeal with maple syrup and raisins
sunflower seeds
green salad
roasted asparagus
corn flakes
orange juice
mushroom barley soup
edamame
boiled peanuts
lemonade
hummus and pita chips
tortilla chips
salsa
guacamole
kappa maki
ginger ale
raisin bran
granola
lentil soup
roasted pumpkin
bruschetta
kimchee
baba ganouj
pasta aglio e olio
peanut butter and celery or bananas
for that matter, bananas and mangos and guavas and a zillion other fruits
artichokes

Are you telling me there's absolutely nothing on that list that you
don't find so disgusting you'd rather die than eat it?

Give me a break.

Serene

--
http://www.momfoodproject.com

[frie...@zoocrewphoto.com]

On Jan 4, 9:21 pm, Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>
> Are you telling me there's absolutely nothing on that list that you
> don't find so disgusting you'd rather die than eat it?
>

For a few days, I could eat *some* of those foods, but would I enjoy
them? Not very much, or at least not very often.

The best thing on that list was ripe raspberries, and I only eat those
a couple times during the season.

Bean burrito? I could eat it, but I would never choose it unless there
was nothing better on the list. I happen to be eating a bean and
cheese burrito right now. I also like BBQ beef burritos. I also like
sour cream. Isn't dairy off the list for vegan food? That wipes out a
lot of choices.

I can survive on vegan food, but it would be a chore to eat it, and I
would only do so because I had no choice.

Most people who eat a vegan diet do so because they choose to eat a
vegan diet. That is their goal. They don't set out to eat a great meal
and happen to choose all vegan foods for 3 meals a day, ever day for
years on end without specifically choosing that type of diet.

I don't want to give up meat or dairy. They are the best parts of my
meals, so giving them up means eating only the worst parts of the
meal, and skipping the best.

[Jim Elbrecht]

While trying unsuccessfully to find some more details on the work done
by renowned horticulturist<g> L. Ron Hubbard in the 70's[?] I ran
across this quote and gave up the search-
"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals. I'm a vegetarian because
I hate plants. " A. Whitney Brown

Someone who cares more might be able to find a full account of
Hubbard's 'experiments'.

Jim

[Gary]

"frie...@zoocrewphoto.com" wrote:
>
> Bean burrito? I could eat it, but I would never choose it unless there
> was nothing better on the list.

I have a good recipe for vegetarian bean burritos. If you left out the
cheese, it would be vegan. As good as it is, it's much better when you add
in some ground beef. ;) That's what I tried the second time and ever
since.

Gary

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:21:20 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
<virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

From the vegan recipe books I've browsed through, I'd say they
overcompensate for lack of familiar tastes & textures with bolder
spice combinations.

Jim

[Bryan]

Hubbard was a failure because he was unable to merge the
Scientologists with the Mormons.
Imagine "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Scientologists."
I heard he was unable to convince the Mormon elders that Xenu and
Kolob are just two
different names for the same planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob
>
> Jim

--Bryan

[jmcquown]

"Jim Elbrecht" <elbr...@email.com> wrote in message
news:n67bg7l6knmo8s401...@4ax.com...

Spice combinations are great. IMHO, vegan food isn't.

Jill

[Dan Abel]

In article <4f052540$0$1091$c3e8da3$4db3...@news.astraweb.com>,

I have. I've always suspected that they were mostly trying to convince
themselves, though!

Still, Julie has a lot of food problems. When some foods make you sick,
and others cause medical problems, then that tends to alter what seems
good to you.

My mother never ate pies and cakes. She was diabetic and they made her
feel bad. Her idea of a perfect desert was a plate of boiled potatoes
with her special sauce (mayonnaise, mustard, pickles and onions) with
some pickled herring on the side!

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net

[Doug Freyburger]

Vegan food easily tastes good. The reality comes in when it's compared
against what it really is. Regular eating is everything that vegan
eating is plus additional animal products. Since animal products often
taste good to many people it's easy for regular eating to taste better
than vegan eating. But because regular eating is the super-set and
vegan eating is the sub-set it is literally impossible for vegan food to
taste better than non-vegan food. The better tasting vegan dishes are
all included in non-vegan food. Every single one of them.

[Gary]

Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Vegan food easily tastes good. The reality comes in when it's compared
> against what it really is. Regular eating is everything that vegan
> eating is plus additional animal products. Since animal products often
> taste good to many people it's easy for regular eating to taste better
> than vegan eating. But because regular eating is the super-set and
> vegan eating is the sub-set it is literally impossible for vegan food to
> taste better than non-vegan food. The better tasting vegan dishes are
> all included in non-vegan food. Every single one of them.

WHAT? ;-D

[merryb]

On Jan 2, 1:39 pm, dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 10:47 am, merryb <msg...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 2, 12:40 am, dsi1 <d...@usenet-news.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 1/1/2012 5:18 PM, Bryan wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 1, 8:28 pm, "Julie Bove"<julieb...@frontier.com>  wrote:
>
> > > >> I do know that animals suffer when we kill them for food.  But thanks to my
> > > >> high school biology class, I also know that plants suffer when we cut them
> > > >> or pick them or burn them or any of the other things we might do to harvest
> > > >> them or even make the fields ready to grow another crop.
>
> > > > Hahahahahaha!  Plants suffering!  You're a nutcase.  Maybe you had as
> > > > kooky high school biology teacher.
>
> > > > --Bryan
>
> > > The idea that plants felt pain and responded to soothing words and even
> > > kind thoughts was a common notion in the late 60s and 70s. That's what
> > > drugs will do for you...
>
> > I believe Mythbusters had this on their show, with 4 or so different
> > greenhouses. They were all the same temp, etc. One had classical
> > music, another heavy metal, but can't remember the other 2- I'm sure
> > one was neutral to be used as a control. I seem to recall the heavy
> > metal one did best...
>
> I like those results! Now they have to do a segment on the myth that
> AC/DC is better than Metallica or Pantera for growing weed.
>
> 🎸✌

Or Pink Floyd!

[dsi1]

Plants raised on Pink Floyd would be semi-transparent and glow with a
greenish-yellow light. That ain't no myth - in my mind at least. :-)

[merryb]

LOL- you crack me up!!

[Dan Abel]

In article <je4ml6$rpu$1...@dont-email.me>,

I understand what you are saying, Doug. However, it's also possible to
consider the constraints as being time, energy and money; rather than
just the sheer number of recipes and food items available.

[Gorio]

'David Harmon[_2_ Wrote:
> ;1700521']On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 00:39:34 +0000 (UTC) in rec.food.cooking,
> tert in
> seattle te...@ftupet.com wrote,-

> I remember back in the 90s when the conventional wisdom was that

> digital data transmission over radio waves would never be feasible.-

>
> The first radio transmissions were digital.

May be true; but played over an anologous source, they were palatable.
There's a reason the sound of vacuum tubes are still preferable to many
who hear the sweeetness, and full midrange they produce. In terms of
amplification, IGFETS/MOSFETS tend to be much grainier and much more
mechanical sounding, despite the advantages in the basso profundo range
and easier maintenance.




--
Gorio