Red-in-Snow? More Preserved Vegetables
Bharati Mandapati
old niggling questions.
Every now and then, typically in a northern, noodle- dumpling Chinese
restaurant, I've snarfed down an appetizer that consisted of a very
lightly pickled minced green vegetable, thin strips of tofu-skin, some
red chillies, all of this very lightly seasoned with sesame oil, spot
of soy maybe. Another variation omits the tofu skin, but adds black
soy beans. Sometimes this green is not tart at all, just salty.
Anyone else eaten something like this? I've been thinking that the
green involved is an amaranth ( cos of the appearance of the stem and
leaf bits).The only Chinese pickled amaranth I know about is
Red-in-Snow. Only this tastes more fresh, and is not as tart as the
stuff in the cans.
BTW, I've heard that the name Red-in-Snow refers to the sometimes red
stalks of this amaranth, so hardy that they even poke out of the snow.
I don't have my tomes with me, and I can't remember what red-in-snow
sounds like in Chinese. Confusingly, the fresh greens are called "hin
choy", I think. Rather like Trillium's hum choy. Hmm....
Bharati
Michael Edelman
Bharati Mandapati wrote:
> Every now and then, typically in a northern, noodle- dumpling Chinese
> restaurant, I've snarfed down an appetizer that consisted of a very
> lightly pickled minced green vegetable, thin strips of tofu-skin, some
> red chillies, all of this very lightly seasoned with sesame oil, spot
> of soy maybe. Another variation omits the tofu skin, but adds black
> soy beans. Sometimes this green is not tart at all, just salty.
Haven't seen this; with all our local Chinese restaurants we have a
paucity of ones that serve Chinese food. Maybe two. Sounds like I need
another cross-border trip to Windsor, Ontario...
> Anyone else eaten something like this? I've been thinking that the
> green involved is an amaranth ( cos of the appearance of the stem and
> leaf bits).The only Chinese pickled amaranth I know about is
> Red-in-Snow. Only this tastes more fresh, and is not as tart as the
> stuff in the cans.
My understanding is that "red-in-snow" refers to "Chinese mustard greens";
is that the same thing?
> BTW, I've heard that the name Red-in-Snow refers to the sometimes red
> stalks of this amaranth, so hardy that they even poke out of the snow.
I've read that the red shoots poke up though the snow.
I buy a lot of different Chinese (and Japanese) pickles; one of the great
adventures is figuring out what the names on the can actually refer to.
"Preserved vegetable" is a common one; so is "pickled lettuce", like the
Pigeon brand discussed earlier. I think I may start keeping a notebook
with glued-in can labels, much as some do with wine labels. "A tangy
little immature pickle, with a hint of rhizomes and perhaps the faintest
trace of black bean...."
--
Michael Edelman http://www.mich.com/~mje
Telescope guide: http://www.mich.com/~mje/scope.html
Folding Kayaks: http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html
Bharati Mandapati
>Bharati Mandapati wrote:
>> Every now and then, typically in a northern, noodle- dumpling Chinese
>> restaurant, I've snarfed down an appetizer that consisted of a very
>> lightly pickled minced green vegetable, thin strips of tofu-skin, some
>> red chillies, all of this very lightly seasoned with sesame oil, spot
>> of soy maybe. Another variation omits the tofu skin, but adds black
>> soy beans. Sometimes this green is not tart at all, just salty.
>Haven't seen this; with all our local Chinese restaurants we have a
>paucity of ones that serve Chinese food. Maybe two. Sounds like I need
>another cross-border trip to Windsor, Ontario...
>> Anyone else eaten something like this? I've been thinking that the
>> green involved is an amaranth ( cos of the appearance of the stem and
>> leaf bits).The only Chinese pickled amaranth I know about is
>> Red-in-Snow. Only this tastes more fresh, and is not as tart as the
>> stuff in the cans.
>My understanding is that "red-in-snow" refers to "Chinese mustard greens";
>is that the same thing?
>> BTW, I've heard that the name Red-in-Snow refers to the sometimes red
>> stalks of this amaranth, so hardy that they even poke out of the snow.
>I've read that the red shoots poke up though the snow.
Hmm. I have heard that version of the story too. On the other hand, I
remember thinking that the bits of leaves in red-in-snow looked more
like an amaranth than your average "heading mustard green" would.
Those turgid, oddly obese looking pale green "greens" in Chinese
markets. Or like the kohlrabi that Schechuan preserved vegetable
really is (notice the kohlrabi picture on some of the cans?]
Then, I remember peering at Ken Hom's _? Chinese Ingredients?..._ (I
apologize for not citing this properly, don't have my stuff around),
where he has a picture of a can, and says that it is an amaranth.
Clearly, what I need in life (one of many things) is a botanically
inclined Chinese foodie. Or a Chinese grandmother who grows and
pickles everything herself and will let me see. Or a really decent,
botanically accurate Chinese kanji dictionary -- this because some
sources have the habit of calling every pale green "green" a cabbage
or failing that a mustard green, even when, from the illustration it
is patently clear they are referring to a kohlrabi.
>I buy a lot of different Chinese (and Japanese) pickles; one of the great
>adventures is figuring out what the names on the can actually refer to.
>"Preserved vegetable" is a common one; so is "pickled lettuce", like the
>Pigeon brand discussed earlier. I think I may start keeping a notebook
>with glued-in can labels, much as some do with wine labels. "A tangy
>little immature pickle, with a hint of rhizomes and perhaps the faintest
>trace of black bean...."
Not a bad idea. ;-) Especially, if one of the goals was "kanji"
(Chinese pictograph) comparison. That would be the definitive way to
crack the code.
Trillium, does the sound "suit nei hoong" mean anything to you?
It strikes me rather belatedly, that this discussion might be helped
if I had a picture to go with the story. I'll go look on the web.
Bharati
(Every time I read "Pigeon brand", I hear the guy from Le Bec Fin in
Philadelphia talking to Terry Gross about "p'jhon" (squab) and her
saying "aren't pigeons just the rats of the sky?" Being
ornithologically inclined, I was startled by this comparison.]
Bharati Mandapati
>It strikes me rather belatedly, that this discussion might be helped
>if I had a picture to go with the story. I'll go look on the web.
Here is one. Unfortunately the accompanying text is in Chinese.
http://magazines.sinanet.com/newwoman/0898/html/4b03_1.html
The first ingredient listed, I'm guessing, is snow vegetable (red in
snow). The first kanji, if I remember right, is the one for snow.
Bharati
Michael Edelman
Bharati Mandapati wrote:
> ...Or like the kohlrabi that Schechuan preserved vegetable
> really is (notice the kohlrabi picture on some of the cans?]
*That* answers another question!
I like the one that comes in an attractive earthenware jar, already chopped up.
When you're done, you still have a great looking jar ;-)
> ...(Every time I read "Pigeon brand", I hear the guy from Le Bec Fin in
> Philadelphia talking to Terry Gross about "p'jhon" (squab) and her
> saying "aren't pigeons just the rats of the sky?" Being
> ornithologically inclined, I was startled by this comparison.]
Having spent about 15 years living in downtown Detroit in the 70s and 80s, I
have often heard the theory that pigeons are just rats in feather suits.
I will say this: DOn't try to cook and eat a city-dwelling pigeon.
t r i l l i u m
~>> Anyone else eaten something like this? I've been thinking that the
~>> green involved is an amaranth ( cos of the appearance of the stem and
~>> leaf bits).The only Chinese pickled amaranth I know about is
~>> Red-in-Snow. Only this tastes more fresh, and is not as tart as the
~>> stuff in the cans.
I've eaten what you describe, in a Northern-style place and maybe in a
Taiwanese restaurant, but I am afraid I can't be much help, since I don't know
much about Northern foodstuffs.
~Hmm. I have heard that version of the story too. On the other hand, I
~remember thinking that the bits of leaves in red-in-snow looked more
~like an amaranth than your average "heading mustard green" would.
~Those turgid, oddly obese looking pale green "greens" in Chinese
~markets. Or like the kohlrabi that Schechuan preserved vegetable
~really is (notice the kohlrabi picture on some of the cans?]
Ok, so I looked up red-in-snow in my fave Chinese cookbook. The characters
match the url you gave. The English says it's a red rooted mustard green that
is hardy enough to grow in snow. The problem is, everything is a mustard
green in this book, including the veggie used in Sichuan vegetable. I didn't
bother asking the bf, because I've been curious about red-in-snow before and
when queried, he mumbled something about Northern mainland Chinese food and
that was as far as it went. I do have a contact with someone from the far
north, but email wouldn't get me very far, since we tend to communicate better
with drawings and characters. I will try to have a conversation about this
with him, since I've been wondering about red in snow for a while now.
~Clearly, what I need in life (one of many things) is a botanically
~inclined Chinese foodie. Or a Chinese grandmother who grows and
~pickles everything herself and will let me see. Or a really decent,
~botanically accurate Chinese kanji dictionary -- this because some
~sources have the habit of calling every pale green "green" a cabbage
~or failing that a mustard green, even when, from the illustration it
~is patently clear they are referring to a kohlrabi.
I have a really great Chinese vegetable cookbook I bought in Berkeley. It is
written by a botanically bent round eye with drawings, characters, Cantonese
pronunciation and a few recipes. Unfortunately it doesn't deal in pickles.
Another nice resource with a SE focus is found at
http://www.sci-ctr.edu.sg/ssc/publication/veg/contents.html
You can get the botanical name of many Asian veggies and herbs, as well as the
pronunciation in several dialects. Unfortunately, no characters or pickles.
I'm trying to get my hands on a hard copy of this publication in case it goes
off the web.
~Trillium, does the sound "suit nei hoong" mean anything to you?
Nope. Most of my vocab is Cantonese, and I don't recognize this. However, I
vaguely recall amaranth going by heng chai in umm, maybe Hakka? It's
Cantonese name is yin choi, another variety goes by ma see yin.
regards,
trillium
Bharati Mandapati
> a...@solanum.com (Bharati Mandapati) wrote:
>I have a really great Chinese vegetable cookbook I bought in Berkeley. It is
>written by a botanically bent round eye with drawings, characters, Cantonese
>pronunciation and a few recipes. Unfortunately it doesn't deal in pickles.
It has become easier to find accurate botanical information about
these vegetables, though not the various preserved variants. The same
vegetable might be preserved in several different ways and have
different colloquial names, which of course, makes things complicated
for the rest of us.
[Oh, and for my bibliography: what is the name of this book?]
>~Trillium, does the sound "suit nei hoong" mean anything to you?
>Nope. Most of my vocab is Cantonese, and I don't recognize this. However, I
>vaguely recall amaranth going by heng chai in umm, maybe Hakka? It's
>Cantonese name is yin choi, another variety goes by ma see yin.
Yep, I've seen these variations for the raw green, I was trying to
remember how red-in-snow, (referring to the preserved stuff) is said
in Chinese.
Thanks for following up on this.
Bharati
aem
raw green, I was trying to remember how red-in-snow, (referring
to the preserved stuff) is said in Chinese.
From Helen Chen's "Chinese Home Cooking":
Snow Cabbage or Red-in-Snow is xue cai (both fourth tone) or xue
li (3d) hong (2nd), in Mandarin.
She just calls it a "member of the mustard family." Pickled in
brine, salty, pungent, crisp.
Not a great cookbook, but the occasional interesting bit of
info. (And I have a soft spot in my memory for her mother's
restaurant in Fresh Pond. Joyce Chen's.)
t r i l l i u m
>[Oh, and for my bibliography: what is the name of this book?]
A Cook's Guide to Chinese Vegetables by Martha Dahlen
with preface by Martin Yan (nobody's perfect)
and illustrations by Karen Phillips
ISBN 962-217-418-3
published by the Guidebook Company, Ltd., Hong Kong
I think this book isn't the easiest to find, so if someone wants one, I'll
need to remember the name of the Asian bookshop I bought it at.
>Yep, I've seen these variations for the raw green, I was trying to
>remember how red-in-snow, (referring to the preserved stuff) is said
>in Chinese.
I found a mention of it in the gai choi part of the book. They mention a
range of Chinese sourkraut (hee) from whole-headed salt-sour cabbage, haam
suen choi (what I wrote as hum choy) of Swatow, to the preserved snow cabbage
(suet lui hoeng) of Shanghai. I'm taking this book with me when I talk with
my Northener friend.
regards,
trillium
Bharati Mandapati
> a...@solanum.com (Bharati Mandapati) wrote:
>>Yep, I've seen these variations for the raw green, I was trying to
>>remember how red-in-snow, (referring to the preserved stuff) is said
>>in Chinese.
>I found a mention of it in the gai choi part of the book. They mention a
>range of Chinese sourkraut (hee) from whole-headed salt-sour cabbage, haam
>suen choi (what I wrote as hum choy) of Swatow, to the preserved snow cabbage
>(suet lui hoeng) of Shanghai. I'm taking this book with me when I talk with
>my Northener friend.
Aha! Thank you. Its good to know my memory isn't *completely* shot to
hell. Do report back on what your friend says.
I'll look out for the book.
Bharati
t r i l l i u m
~Aha! Thank you. Its good to know my memory isn't *completely* shot to
~hell. Do report back on what your friend says.
Well, I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend yet, but I did bump into
someone in another ng who was able to further our discussion on red-in-snow.
Timothy Ng (ng...@interlog.com) has kindly allowed me to post his email on the
subject and leaves us with this tantilizing comment...
"Please, Trillium, by all means, post that Xue li hong to the newsgroup for
me. I won't have time to get on there for at least another three days.
Meanwhile, I have an insight for the subject, but I have to do some research
before any discussion."
Here is the relevant part of his email:
"Xue li hong (mandarin) or suet lui heong (Cantonese) is always been a
myth in terms of what vegetable is pickled of. From my own
understanding, I am afraid it is not made with amaranth (ma see yin),
since ma see yin has a particular taste and it acts like beets, it'll
bleed when you cook it.
I saw xue li hong fresh last year in the market of Guangzhou, formerly
Canton. I regret that I did not purchase any to examinate this
particular green. However, from the cookbook, Shui Yuan Shih Dan,
written by a retired official, Yuan Mei, an eighteenth century poet, xue
li hong was called "Dong Jie", or the winter mustard. Of course, there
are a few varieties of mustard greens, the southern ones are usually
thick stalked, and firm, and called Da jie cai; while the northern ones
are thin and leafy, perhaps just called jie cai. Xue li hong is of the
northern one.
I also used to think xue li hong was made with heads of Lo bo, icicle
radish; the green part grows out from that root, I considered as the
material for Xue li hong. But after seeing the fresh one, and comparing
with the pickle, at this moment, I am convinced that the pickle is made
with the green leaf kind "winter mustard"."
regards,
trillium
Bharati Mandapati
>a...@solanum.com (Bharati Mandapati) wrote:
>~Aha! Thank you. Its good to know my memory isn't *completely* shot to
>~hell. Do report back on what your friend says.
>Well, I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend yet, but I did bump into
>someone in another ng who was able to further our discussion on red-in-snow.
>Timothy Ng (ng...@interlog.com) has kindly allowed me to post his email on the
>subject and leaves us with this tantilizing comment...
>"Please, Trillium, by all means, post that Xue li hong to the newsgroup for
>me. I won't have time to get on there for at least another three days.
>Meanwhile, I have an insight for the subject, but I have to do some research
>before any discussion."
>Here is the relevant part of his email:
>"Xue li hong (mandarin) or suet lui heong (Cantonese) is always been a
>myth in terms of what vegetable is pickled of. From my own
>understanding, I am afraid it is not made with amaranth (ma see yin),
>since ma see yin has a particular taste and it acts like beets, it'll
>bleed when you cook it.
Ahem. Not all amaranths bleed.
>I saw xue li hong fresh last year in the market of Guangzhou, formerly
>Canton. I regret that I did not purchase any to examinate this
>particular green. However, from the cookbook, Shui Yuan Shih Dan,
>written by a retired official, Yuan Mei, an eighteenth century poet, xue
>li hong was called "Dong Jie", or the winter mustard. Of course, there
>are a few varieties of mustard greens, the southern ones are usually
>thick stalked, and firm, and called Da jie cai; while the northern ones
>are thin and leafy, perhaps just called jie cai. Xue li hong is of the
>northern one.
>I also used to think xue li hong was made with heads of Lo bo, icicle
>radish; the green part grows out from that root, I considered as the
>material for Xue li hong. But after seeing the fresh one, and comparing
>with the pickle, at this moment, I am convinced that the pickle is made
>with the green leaf kind "winter mustard"."
The plot thickens. Thin and leafy it definitely is. Bloody brassicas,
I wish they weren't all lumped together as "mustards".
Idle Thought of the Hour : Wandering about China making a documentary
about preserved vegetables. In which people are caught in the act of
picking and pickling.
Bharati
Geeta Bharathan
: tbla...@nwu.edu (t r i l l i u m) wrote:
: >I also used to think xue li hong was made with heads of Lo bo, icicle
: >radish; the green part grows out from that root, I considered as the
: >material for Xue li hong. But after seeing the fresh one, and comparing
: >with the pickle, at this moment, I am convinced that the pickle is made
: >with the green leaf kind "winter mustard"."
: The plot thickens. Thin and leafy it definitely is. Bloody brassicas,
: I wish they weren't all lumped together as "mustards".
: Idle Thought of the Hour : Wandering about China making a documentary
: about preserved vegetables. In which people are caught in the act of
: picking and pickling.
How about something more immediately do-able:
http://www.sci-ctr.edu.sg/ssc/publication/veg/kale.html
and forward.
Don't know whether this site came up during the discussion earlier;
there's lots of Brassicas and Brassicaceae there to worry about...
--Geeta
Bharati Mandapati
> http://www.sci-ctr.edu.sg/ssc/publication/veg/kale.html
>and forward.
Trillium has pointed this excellent site out to us many times over. As
the page you lead us to points out (in the very last para), the
confusion over varietals in this family is far from resolved. Also,
there are several sources that give the botanical names for the raw
greens, but do not discuss preparation and preservation in detail. It
is this mapping I'm interested in. The fact that the names of dishes
and preserves are not directly derived from the (Chinese) names for
the raw greens makes things even more difficult.
Bharati
t r i l l i u m
~is this mapping I'm interested in. The fact that the names of dishes
~and preserves are not directly derived from the (Chinese) names for
~the raw greens makes things even more difficult.
~
~Bharati
I really like the idea of catching the picklers in the act. It's that or find
a botanist minded Northern Chinese foodie. I bet you could have a very long
and interesting documentary on the types of preserved vegetables in China
alone. You'd need a multi-Chinese-dialect translator, since the best
information would be out in the country. I'd pay to see it, and if I was a
funding agency, I'd grant you the $$, but then, I've been told I'm a bit
strange about food.
regards,
trillium (Bharati, did you know email to you is bounced after a 3 day long
queue?)