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Miss Manners on what to ask for at meals - or not
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leno...@yahoo.com
Jun 20, 2020, 10:01:33 PM6/20/20
to
https://www.uexpress.com/miss-manners/2020/6/19/2/husband-alters-dish-faces-wrath#disqus-comments
DEAR MISS MANNERS: I know it is considered impolite to ask for something that is not on the dinner table. I was wondering, however, if it were permitted to ask for routine things, such as salt or water.
Is it OK to ask for tea when coffee is offered, or should one just refuse a drink? Cream cheese is routinely offered with bagels, but I prefer butter. Is it acceptable to ask if they have such, or do I eat my bagel dry?
GENTLE READER: Naked bagels and beverage abstinence are not required, as long as requests are polite and reasonable. Miss Manners allows one usually available substitution per item, if no more than two words are used to modify it: “I wonder if you might have beer instead of wine” is acceptable. “Something hoppy in a locally sourced, sustainable craft lager” is not.
DEAR MISS MANNERS: I know it is considered impolite to ask for something that is not on the dinner table. I was wondering, however, if it were permitted to ask for routine things, such as salt or water.
Is it OK to ask for tea when coffee is offered, or should one just refuse a drink? Cream cheese is routinely offered with bagels, but I prefer butter. Is it acceptable to ask if they have such, or do I eat my bagel dry?
GENTLE READER: Naked bagels and beverage abstinence are not required, as long as requests are polite and reasonable. Miss Manners allows one usually available substitution per item, if no more than two words are used to modify it: “I wonder if you might have beer instead of wine” is acceptable. “Something hoppy in a locally sourced, sustainable craft lager” is not.
leno...@yahoo.com
Jun 20, 2020, 10:09:28 PM6/20/20
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And two comments that caught my eye:
Karen K: "Growing up, we never had drinks with our meals, only after. The reason? My brother "Paul", who, when he was little, managed to spill his freaking milk every. single. night. Our kitchen table was one of those that you could extend by pulling out and putting in an extra "leaf" to make it bigger, and the milk would always go right into/through the damn gap in the middle. Mom got sick of it and so we got our milk or whatever after dinner."
JC77: "My mother had the odd belief that you should be able to chew and swallow your food without ever taking a drink. She must have had higher saliva levels than I do. Most of the time, she didn't make an issue of it, but when she did, I struggled."
MY late mother had a similar rule, that I'm pretty sure I've seen MIss Manners advocate as well. That is, no sipping from any beverage until one's mouth was empty. The idea was to promote slow, genteel chewing - and the preventing of choking, of course. It also happened to be a practice within the macrobiotic diet, so the saying was "chew your soup and drink your food."
Lenona.
Karen K: "Growing up, we never had drinks with our meals, only after. The reason? My brother "Paul", who, when he was little, managed to spill his freaking milk every. single. night. Our kitchen table was one of those that you could extend by pulling out and putting in an extra "leaf" to make it bigger, and the milk would always go right into/through the damn gap in the middle. Mom got sick of it and so we got our milk or whatever after dinner."
JC77: "My mother had the odd belief that you should be able to chew and swallow your food without ever taking a drink. She must have had higher saliva levels than I do. Most of the time, she didn't make an issue of it, but when she did, I struggled."
MY late mother had a similar rule, that I'm pretty sure I've seen MIss Manners advocate as well. That is, no sipping from any beverage until one's mouth was empty. The idea was to promote slow, genteel chewing - and the preventing of choking, of course. It also happened to be a practice within the macrobiotic diet, so the saying was "chew your soup and drink your food."
Lenona.
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 20, 2020, 10:40:56 PM6/20/20
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meal a guzzle it down as fast as I could.
Beer with pizza and sometime a sandwich
Wine with a nice dinner
Water is appropriate any time. with any meal.
John Kuthe
Jun 20, 2020, 10:47:17 PM6/20/20
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John Kuthe...
jmcquown
Jun 21, 2020, 12:35:00 AM6/21/20
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beverage to wash down your food. I don't know about "genteel" since I
wasn't raised in a 'Miss Manners' type household. It does make sense to
chew and swallow before taking a sip of the beverage of choice.
Jill
Sheldon Martin
Jun 21, 2020, 7:49:27 AM6/21/20
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with a slice of lemon in it to kill the NYC chlorine flavor. NYC
water comes from upstate resevoirs, so would contain living organisms.
Gary
Jun 21, 2020, 11:09:34 AM6/21/20
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Sheldon Martin wrote:
>
> Growing up there was always a large pitcher of ice water on the table,
> with a slice of lemon in it to kill the NYC chlorine flavor. NYC
> water comes from upstate resevoirs, so would contain living organisms.
That lemon didn't eliminate the chlorine just covered it up.
>
> Growing up there was always a large pitcher of ice water on the table,
> with a slice of lemon in it to kill the NYC chlorine flavor. NYC
> water comes from upstate resevoirs, so would contain living organisms.
Easy with city water (with chlorine) to let it sit out over
night and let it dissipate. Or you can just boil it then
cool it down in the fridge.
songbird
Jun 21, 2020, 12:01:26 PM6/21/20
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Gary wrote:
...
stuff added to it at all.
when we visited Grandma in the city her water
tasted sweet to me and i'd drink several glasses
of water when getting there (it was a few hour
drive too).
the well water here has a bit of iron and
calcium in it and not everyone will drink it
but i am ok. it's good and cold.
songbird
...
> That lemon didn't eliminate the chlorine just covered it up.
> Easy with city water (with chlorine) to let it sit out over
> night and let it dissipate. Or you can just boil it then
> cool it down in the fridge.
we were always used to well water without any
> Easy with city water (with chlorine) to let it sit out over
> night and let it dissipate. Or you can just boil it then
> cool it down in the fridge.
stuff added to it at all.
when we visited Grandma in the city her water
tasted sweet to me and i'd drink several glasses
of water when getting there (it was a few hour
drive too).
the well water here has a bit of iron and
calcium in it and not everyone will drink it
but i am ok. it's good and cold.
songbird
Dave Smith
Jun 21, 2020, 4:19:00 PM6/21/20
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while. You can boil it, let it sit for a couple hours, or just pour it
back and forth a few times.
Gary
Jun 22, 2020, 8:58:22 AM6/22/20
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or
those walk in tubs with jets to massage you....
You'll never hear this in the sales pitch but once you have one
installed, they have a warning sticker on the new units to only
be removed by the customers.
They warn you that if you use chlorinated city water, don't stay
in the tubs for more than a few minutes. Those jets aerate the
water and release all the chlorine and you're relaxing there and
breathing in a high concentration of chlorine gas. Not good
for you.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 22, 2020, 9:04:49 AM6/22/20
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Millions of hot tubs are meant to be kept filled at all times. These
use chlorine or bromine to keep the water from turning green and slimy.
It's entirely up to the owner to regulate the amount of disinfectant
in the tub.
If it were a health hazard, people would be suing hot tub manufacturers
right, left, and center. The industry would dry up and blow away.
Cindy Hamilton
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 22, 2020, 6:01:46 PM6/22/20
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On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 7:58:22 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>
> One interesting thing I learned once. People that add a Jacuzzi
> or
> those walk in tubs with jets to massage you....
>
> You'll never hear this in the sales pitch but once you have one
> installed, they have a warning sticker on the new units to only
> be removed by the customers.
>
Really? No such warning sticker on my walk-in tub I had installed
>
> One interesting thing I learned once. People that add a Jacuzzi
> or
> those walk in tubs with jets to massage you....
>
> You'll never hear this in the sales pitch but once you have one
> installed, they have a warning sticker on the new units to only
> be removed by the customers.
>
about 2½ years ago.
>
> They warn you that if you use chlorinated city water, don't stay
> in the tubs for more than a few minutes. Those jets aerate the
> water and release all the chlorine and you're relaxing there and
> breathing in a high concentration of chlorine gas. Not good
> for you.
>
No such sticker on my tub.
> They warn you that if you use chlorinated city water, don't stay
> in the tubs for more than a few minutes. Those jets aerate the
> water and release all the chlorine and you're relaxing there and
> breathing in a high concentration of chlorine gas. Not good
> for you.
>
Gary
Jun 23, 2020, 8:26:08 AM6/23/20
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Cindy Hamilton wrote:
make that up. I've seen the warning sticker on them when
I did a remodeled bathroom a few times.
I suppose it's a disclaimer to protect the company from
a future lawsuit. Those warning stickers say to leave
on and let owner read them and remove.
I'm not going to look it up for you but you can.
Google will show a mention about this concern.
If your outdoor hot tub has water jets, you might
want to read all about it.
>
> Gary wrote:
> > They warn you that if you use chlorinated city water, don't stay
> > in the tubs for more than a few minutes. Those jets aerate the
> > water and release all the chlorine and you're relaxing there and
> > breathing in a high concentration of chlorine gas. Not good
> > for you.
>
> "They"?
"They" as in the manufacturers of those things. I didn't
> Gary wrote:
> > They warn you that if you use chlorinated city water, don't stay
> > in the tubs for more than a few minutes. Those jets aerate the
> > water and release all the chlorine and you're relaxing there and
> > breathing in a high concentration of chlorine gas. Not good
> > for you.
>
> "They"?
make that up. I've seen the warning sticker on them when
I did a remodeled bathroom a few times.
I suppose it's a disclaimer to protect the company from
a future lawsuit. Those warning stickers say to leave
on and let owner read them and remove.
I'm not going to look it up for you but you can.
Google will show a mention about this concern.
If your outdoor hot tub has water jets, you might
want to read all about it.
Gary
Jun 23, 2020, 9:09:11 AM6/23/20
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BTW - how do you like that walk-in tub? Glad you bought it?
I see the commercials often.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 23, 2020, 9:12:52 AM6/23/20
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doing what I'm doing.
Don't forget, ordinary play sand is known to be a carcinogen to the
State of California.
Cindy Hamilton
Gary
Jun 23, 2020, 9:16:00 AM6/23/20
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Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> Don't forget, ordinary play sand is known to be a carcinogen to the
> State of California.
Tim Allen: "God Bless America, except for California."
>
> Don't forget, ordinary play sand is known to be a carcinogen to the
> State of California.
Even ferrets are illegal there.
Bruce
Jun 23, 2020, 2:56:17 PM6/23/20
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:13:42 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>
>> Don't forget, ordinary play sand is known to be a carcinogen to the
>> State of California.
>
>Tim Allen: "God Bless America, except for California."
You're a typical fly-over state man, even though you're on the coast.
>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>
>> Don't forget, ordinary play sand is known to be a carcinogen to the
>> State of California.
>
>Tim Allen: "God Bless America, except for California."
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 23, 2020, 3:36:06 PM6/23/20
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a flyover state.
Cindy Hamilton
Bruce
Jun 23, 2020, 3:49:05 PM6/23/20
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Hicksville Alabama.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 23, 2020, 5:41:57 PM6/23/20
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 8:09:11 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>
> Perhaps your installer removed all stickers. They shouldn't have.
>
Nope, no such sticker. I was there when it was delivered.
>
> Perhaps your installer removed all stickers. They shouldn't have.
>
>
> BTW - how do you like that walk-in tub? Glad you bought it?
> I see the commercials often.
>
Although I have no trouble accessing a regular tub I love this walk-in
> BTW - how do you like that walk-in tub? Glad you bought it?
> I see the commercials often.
>
tub. When I remodeled I took into consideration if I should have any
mobility problems years down the road.
Yeah, I see the commercials as well and there is a showroom about 10 miles
north of me with these tubs. I stopped in once just to get a ballpark
figure of a tub. Nope, nada, ain't gonna give out that information, they
MUST come to your house to quote a price. I interpreted that into "MUST
come to my house to talk me into buying a tub." Btw, I'm talking about
a Safe-Step tub.
I have since learned from several people and several forums the lowest,
rock bottom price is $11,000. I had my entire bathroom remodeled for
$12,578 and that included some other small projects around the house.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 23, 2020, 5:43:47 PM6/23/20
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 2:49:05 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>
> At least you live in a university city in a fly-over state, not in
> Hicksville Alabama.
>
Gary doesn't live in Alabama.
>
> At least you live in a university city in a fly-over state, not in
> Hicksville Alabama.
>
Bruce
Jun 23, 2020, 5:47:28 PM6/23/20
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itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 23, 2020, 6:27:17 PM6/23/20
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https://i.postimg.cc/mDPymBm1/USA-Map.jpg
See the highlighted area on the right of the picture.
Bruce
Jun 23, 2020, 6:40:17 PM6/23/20
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:27:11 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
basically North North Carolina.
<itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 4:47:28 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:43:44 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Gary doesn't live in Alabama.
>>
>> And not in Hicksville either?
>>
>He lives in Virginia Beach, Virginia on the east coast of the USA.
>
>https://i.postimg.cc/mDPymBm1/USA-Map.jpg
>
>See the highlighted area on the right of the picture.
I knew that, although I thought it was further to the south. It's
>On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 4:47:28 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:43:44 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Gary doesn't live in Alabama.
>>
>> And not in Hicksville either?
>>
>He lives in Virginia Beach, Virginia on the east coast of the USA.
>
>https://i.postimg.cc/mDPymBm1/USA-Map.jpg
>
>See the highlighted area on the right of the picture.
basically North North Carolina.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 24, 2020, 5:49:55 AM6/24/20
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(Ann Arbor)--where I live--and Hicksville, Alabama.
Although if I had to live in Alabama, I'd choose Huntsville.
Cindy Hamilton
Janet
Jun 24, 2020, 10:07:50 AM6/24/20
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In article <578cac03-18fa-489b...@googlegroups.com>,
itsjoan...@webtv.net says...
and sit, before you turn on the water...isn't there a nasty time when
it's coming out of the tap either too hot or too cold? How do you get
round that?
Janet UK
itsjoan...@webtv.net says...
>
> On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 8:09:11 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps your installer removed all stickers. They shouldn't have.
> >
> Nope, no such sticker. I was there when it was delivered.
> >
> > BTW - how do you like that walk-in tub? Glad you bought it?
> > I see the commercials often.
> >
> Although I have no trouble accessing a regular tub I love this walk-in
> tub.
Just curious; if you have to get in the emppty tub, close the door
> On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 8:09:11 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps your installer removed all stickers. They shouldn't have.
> >
> Nope, no such sticker. I was there when it was delivered.
> >
> > BTW - how do you like that walk-in tub? Glad you bought it?
> > I see the commercials often.
> >
> Although I have no trouble accessing a regular tub I love this walk-in
> tub.
and sit, before you turn on the water...isn't there a nasty time when
it's coming out of the tap either too hot or too cold? How do you get
round that?
Janet UK
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 24, 2020, 10:13:21 AM6/24/20
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then get in the tub, close the door, and fill the tub.
Cindy Hamilton
Janet
Jun 24, 2020, 12:11:13 PM6/24/20
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In article <8138523a-9c1e-4aa9...@googlegroups.com>,
angelica...@yahoo.com says...
Logical as ever ;-) But then when you've finished, you have to sit
there until the tide goes out.
Janet UK
Janet
angelica...@yahoo.com says...
there until the tide goes out.
Janet UK
Janet
Sheldon Martin
Jun 24, 2020, 12:26:07 PM6/24/20
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comfortable temperature, then I get in, takes less than a minute. I
do laundry in hot water, I let the closest sink run for a minute
before turning on the washer.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 24, 2020, 1:00:59 PM6/24/20
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showers since I was 12 or 13 years old.
Cindy Hamilton
Lucretia Borgia
Jun 24, 2020, 1:13:15 PM6/24/20
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getting in, it's the getting out they dislike, having to sit there
while it drains.
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 24, 2020, 1:39:37 PM6/24/20
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seconds.
About 20 years ago we stayed at a B and B with a Jaccuzi tub. Only time
I was in a tub for a bath is over 60 years. No tubs here, spent extra
for good shower stuff though.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 1:42:46 PM6/24/20
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On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 4:49:55 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> Although if I had to live in Alabama, I'd choose Huntsville.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
For the space camp?
>
> Although if I had to live in Alabama, I'd choose Huntsville.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
I've only been through Huntsville on my way to Birmingham.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 1:48:57 PM6/24/20
to
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 9:07:50 AM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
>
> In article <578cac03-18fa-489b...@googlegroups.com>,
> itsjoan...@webtv.net says...
> >
>
> In article <578cac03-18fa-489b...@googlegroups.com>,
> itsjoan...@webtv.net says...
> >
> > Although I have no trouble accessing a regular tub I love this walk-in
> > tub.
>
> Just curious; if you have to get in the emppty tub, close the door
> and sit, before you turn on the water...isn't there a nasty time when
> it's coming out of the tap either too hot or too cold? How do you get
> round that?
>
>
> Janet UK
>
I spray the tub seat and back with scalding hot water before I get in
> > tub.
>
> Just curious; if you have to get in the emppty tub, close the door
> and sit, before you turn on the water...isn't there a nasty time when
> it's coming out of the tap either too hot or too cold? How do you get
> round that?
>
>
> Janet UK
>
and close the door. That warm seat feels good on a naked butt, hahahaha.
Mostly though I use the tub as a sit-down shower but do use the water
jets when I've done something super strenuous and know I'll be sore.
It takes 65 gallons of water to fill it completely. Now whether that is
to top of tub, I don't know. But it does take quite a bit to fill it and
you need a good size water heater to accommodate it.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 1:51:29 PM6/24/20
to
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 11:11:13 AM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
>
> Logical as ever ;-) But then when you've finished, you have to sit
> there until the tide goes out.
>
> Janet UK
>
My tub drains fairly quickly but you can buy a pump to attach to the drain
>
> Logical as ever ;-) But then when you've finished, you have to sit
> there until the tide goes out.
>
> Janet UK
>
that will empty the tub in about 2½ minutes.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 1:53:46 PM6/24/20
to
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 12:13:15 PM UTC-5, Lucretia Borgia wrote:
>
> I have a couple of friends who have walk in tubs - it's not the
> getting in, it's the getting out they dislike, having to sit there
> while it drains.
>
I take a shower 95% of the time. But if my previous tub had been a slow
>
> I have a couple of friends who have walk in tubs - it's not the
> getting in, it's the getting out they dislike, having to sit there
> while it drains.
>
drainer I would have opted for the pump to drain this one fast.
Dave Smith
Jun 24, 2020, 2:30:52 PM6/24/20
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On 2020-06-24 12:26 p.m., Sheldon Martin wrote:
>> Run the water first with the stopper out until it's a comfortable temperature,
>> then get in the tub, close the door, and fill the tub.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> When I shower I do the same, I let the water run until it's a
> comfortable temperature, then I get in, takes less than a minute. I
> do laundry in hot water, I let the closest sink run for a minute
> before turning on the washer.
For a while I used to start work at 6 am, so I learned to shower really
>> Run the water first with the stopper out until it's a comfortable temperature,
>> then get in the tub, close the door, and fill the tub.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> When I shower I do the same, I let the water run until it's a
> comfortable temperature, then I get in, takes less than a minute. I
> do laundry in hot water, I let the closest sink run for a minute
> before turning on the washer.
quickly in the morning. I would jump into the shower and turn on the
water cranked over to hot. I would wet the soap enough to start getting
lathered up. By the time I was soaped up the water was hot and I would
adjust it and start rinsing. I usually managed to shower in about a minute.
Dave Smith
Jun 24, 2020, 2:41:33 PM6/24/20
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and sit in a tub full of hot water. I find it quite therapeutic.
The times I went to Denmark I had a little trouble dealing with their
showers. Hotel rooms typically had a floor that sloped to one side or
corner with a drain at the low point, a very low lip on the floor around
the shower area and a curtain hanging down. On the first day of my
first trip I had a quick shower before meeting my friends for a meal.
There were no hooks on the wall so I tossed my clothes on the floor.
Apparently they were too close the the inadequately enclosed showed
area, and everything got wet. After that I learned to take my clothes
off before going to the washroom to shower.
Bruce
Jun 24, 2020, 2:56:34 PM6/24/20
to
penalty, in a documentary. But maybe that was another Huntsville.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 24, 2020, 3:01:20 PM6/24/20
to
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 1:42:46 PM UTC-4, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 4:49:55 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > Although if I had to live in Alabama, I'd choose Huntsville.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
> For the space camp?
For the jobs. I'm also reliably informed that it has
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 4:49:55 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > Although if I had to live in Alabama, I'd choose Huntsville.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
> For the space camp?
restaurants that cater to the engineers that work there.
Meat-and-three isn't what I'm looking for.
Cindy Hamilton
Hank Rogers
Jun 24, 2020, 3:12:33 PM6/24/20
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itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 3:20:12 PM6/24/20
to
kill you back." Texas is not afraid to use the death penalty.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 3:21:39 PM6/24/20
to
Bruce
Jun 24, 2020, 3:37:36 PM6/24/20
to
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 12:20:08 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
<itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 1:56:34 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I've only been through Huntsville on my way to Birmingham.
>>
>> I believe I saw something about Huntsville, as the center of the death
>> penalty, in a documentary. But maybe that was another Huntsville.
>>
>That would be Huntsville, Texas where their motto is "You kill us, we
>kill you back." Texas is not afraid to use the death penalty.
Yes, it was Texas.
>On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 1:56:34 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I've only been through Huntsville on my way to Birmingham.
>>
>> I believe I saw something about Huntsville, as the center of the death
>> penalty, in a documentary. But maybe that was another Huntsville.
>>
>That would be Huntsville, Texas where their motto is "You kill us, we
>kill you back." Texas is not afraid to use the death penalty.
graham
Jun 24, 2020, 5:01:50 PM6/24/20
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itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 24, 2020, 5:16:15 PM6/24/20
to
Dave Smith
Jun 24, 2020, 6:18:48 PM6/24/20
to
the fact. I can think of a few cases where the guys appealed several
times and were eventually acquitted, but they were probably still guilty
of the crime.
We had a situation here where a pathologist was the expert witness in a
number of infanticide cases. His evidence was questioned in appeals and
other expert witnesses disputed his claims. He ended up losing his
credibility and his standing as an expert witness. In the wake of that,
just about everyone who was convicted in cases where he gave evidence
appealed their convictions. Since he had been the main witness and
since he had lost his expert witness qualifications the crown ended up
dropping the charges. That does not automatically mean that they were
guilty. It just means that the prosecution no longer had a case.
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 24, 2020, 8:25:13 PM6/24/20
to
On 6/24/2020 6:19 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2020-06-24 5:16 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 4:01:50 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2020-06-24 1:20 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That would be Huntsville, Texas where their motto is "You kill us, we
>>>> kill you back." Texas is not afraid to use the death penalty.
>>>>
>>> whether guilty or not!
>>>
>> Show me one that Texas has executed that was 'innocent.'
>>
>
> Sometimes people get off on technicalities, or after appeals years after
> the fact. I can think of a few cases where the guys appealed several
> times and were eventually acquitted, but they were probably still guilty
> of the crime.
>
We have a flawed system. Nice when the bad guys get put away but some
> On 2020-06-24 5:16 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 4:01:50 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2020-06-24 1:20 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That would be Huntsville, Texas where their motto is "You kill us, we
>>>> kill you back." Texas is not afraid to use the death penalty.
>>>>
>>> whether guilty or not!
>>>
>> Show me one that Texas has executed that was 'innocent.'
>>
>
> Sometimes people get off on technicalities, or after appeals years after
> the fact. I can think of a few cases where the guys appealed several
> times and were eventually acquitted, but they were probably still guilty
> of the crime.
>
innocent people get nailed too.
https://www.innocenceproject.org/
https://eji.org/issues/wrongful-convictions/
Children and people with mental disabilities are especially vulnerable
to being wrongly convicted. EJI won the release of Diane Tucker, a woman
with intellectual disability who was wrongfully convicted of murdering
an infant, by obtaining medical evidence that proved the baby never existed.
Bruce
Jun 24, 2020, 10:01:04 PM6/24/20
to
innocence.
Gary
Jun 25, 2020, 7:43:17 AM6/25/20
to
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> We have a flawed system. Nice when the bad guys get put away but some
> innocent people get nailed too.
>
> https://www.innocenceproject.org/
>
> https://eji.org/issues/wrongful-convictions/
> Children and people with mental disabilities are especially vulnerable
> to being wrongly convicted. EJI won the release of Diane Tucker, a woman
> with intellectual disability who was wrongfully convicted of murdering
> an infant, by obtaining medical evidence that proved the baby never existed.
I see that on the news way too often. Someone convicted then
>
> We have a flawed system. Nice when the bad guys get put away but some
> innocent people get nailed too.
>
> https://www.innocenceproject.org/
>
> https://eji.org/issues/wrongful-convictions/
> Children and people with mental disabilities are especially vulnerable
> to being wrongly convicted. EJI won the release of Diane Tucker, a woman
> with intellectual disability who was wrongfully convicted of murdering
> an infant, by obtaining medical evidence that proved the baby never existed.
released many years later after found innocent. That's
so wrong. Many times, certain evidence is withheld in
a trial.
This is why I would refuse to vote guilty when on a jury.
I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
part of convicting one innocent person.
And in the entire court system, the "shanghaied" jurors are
the lowest paid schmucks.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 25, 2020, 9:33:37 AM6/25/20
to
based on the evidence (which wasn't much, in this case). I'm not
a low-paid schmuck.
I would never try to get out of jury duty. Because "duty".
Cindy Hamilton
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 25, 2020, 10:50:50 AM6/25/20
to
out of the DA's ass to get a conviction. Juror is a serious
responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
hard evidence.
Bruce
Jun 25, 2020, 2:53:41 PM6/25/20
to
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:41:08 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>I see that on the news way too often. Someone convicted then
>released many years later after found innocent. That's
>so wrong. Many times, certain evidence is withheld in
>a trial.
>
>This is why I would refuse to vote guilty when on a jury.
>
>I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
>case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
>part of convicting one innocent person.
The jury decides on guilty or innocent, but the judge decides on the
>I see that on the news way too often. Someone convicted then
>released many years later after found innocent. That's
>so wrong. Many times, certain evidence is withheld in
>a trial.
>
>This is why I would refuse to vote guilty when on a jury.
>
>I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
>case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
>part of convicting one innocent person.
the death penalty or the length of the jail term, is that correct?
Bruce
Jun 25, 2020, 3:19:35 PM6/25/20
to
I can to get out of it.
songbird
Jun 25, 2020, 3:33:47 PM6/25/20
to
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...
want a wind-bag of story... :)
my experience so far with jury duty was that i was glad to
not be chosen for a "he-said"/"she-said" domestic violence
case, but since i wasn't chosen i didn't stay to hear the
finer details. i was next in line though if someone else
had gotten out of it i'd have been possibly chosen - but i
think i would have had to admit i had a negative opinion
of the guy from the start...
from the beginning the guy was going to defend himself
(and was doing a real poor job of it in the jury selection
part) and i doubt he won just based upon how bad that went.
most of the other jurors in the groups that day were
called for a murder trial. i was very glad to not be
in that. i just don't like to see that sort of stuff at
all.
it was a very stress-filled day for me because while i
was a bit early in setting out to get to the court-house i
was half-way there and realized i didn't have my wallet
and figured they would check id's so i had to scramble to
get back here and then back to the court-house on time.
the roads weren't great, it was the middle of winter and
there had been a storm. i was glad nobody else was on
the road. i'm a very good driver and have a lot of
experience driving in poor conditions, but i was pressing
the edge more than i liked that morning.
i did get back only a few minutes late and nobody was
checking the time at the door so i signed in and all was
ok.
in the court-room for the trial i would have been
selected for the judge was not happy at all when he called
off the names of people who should have been there who were
not there. i'm not sure if he did any follow-up fines or
warrants for those who didn't show up. some people showed
up, signed their names and then left. i had a book to read.
i try to always travel with a book to read for any appt or
gathering or just because i like to read and hate waiting
for anything with nothing to read.
the other part of the stress filled day was that the
automatic phone system was not working properly and the
on-line system did not always match what the phone system
said so i wasn't sure which one mattered more. in filling
out the on-line stuff that i did i made a mistake and
didn't notice it and there was no way to correct that
without calling the court-house. i talked to a clerk who
said they changed what they needed to change, but then a
few days later i get a note in the mail saying i was denied
my request for an absense but that wasn't what i intended
at all and the phone call was to correct that error on my
part. so i really had little faith in the system by the
time i got to the court-house and then went through the
rest of it.
i was paid $12.45 or so for the duty. i'd have done it
for free as a citizen, but really i thought it was rather
messy and they needed to fix their system - they had a lot
of phone recordings that they had to update each day and
by certain times. being some distance away from the
court-house here out in the sticks and during the winter
there was some moments where i doubted i would have been
on-time if they had called my group in since they didn't
update the phone messages very promptly.
having been through the whole process once now it won't
be so odd if i get called again - i sure hope they fixed
the issues...
songbird
...
> Depends on the evidence. Real evidence, not something possibly pulled
> out of the DA's ass to get a conviction. Juror is a serious
> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
> hard evidence.
i am in the mood to write this down so skip if you don't
> out of the DA's ass to get a conviction. Juror is a serious
> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
> hard evidence.
want a wind-bag of story... :)
my experience so far with jury duty was that i was glad to
not be chosen for a "he-said"/"she-said" domestic violence
case, but since i wasn't chosen i didn't stay to hear the
finer details. i was next in line though if someone else
had gotten out of it i'd have been possibly chosen - but i
think i would have had to admit i had a negative opinion
of the guy from the start...
from the beginning the guy was going to defend himself
(and was doing a real poor job of it in the jury selection
part) and i doubt he won just based upon how bad that went.
most of the other jurors in the groups that day were
called for a murder trial. i was very glad to not be
in that. i just don't like to see that sort of stuff at
all.
it was a very stress-filled day for me because while i
was a bit early in setting out to get to the court-house i
was half-way there and realized i didn't have my wallet
and figured they would check id's so i had to scramble to
get back here and then back to the court-house on time.
the roads weren't great, it was the middle of winter and
there had been a storm. i was glad nobody else was on
the road. i'm a very good driver and have a lot of
experience driving in poor conditions, but i was pressing
the edge more than i liked that morning.
i did get back only a few minutes late and nobody was
checking the time at the door so i signed in and all was
ok.
in the court-room for the trial i would have been
selected for the judge was not happy at all when he called
off the names of people who should have been there who were
not there. i'm not sure if he did any follow-up fines or
warrants for those who didn't show up. some people showed
up, signed their names and then left. i had a book to read.
i try to always travel with a book to read for any appt or
gathering or just because i like to read and hate waiting
for anything with nothing to read.
the other part of the stress filled day was that the
automatic phone system was not working properly and the
on-line system did not always match what the phone system
said so i wasn't sure which one mattered more. in filling
out the on-line stuff that i did i made a mistake and
didn't notice it and there was no way to correct that
without calling the court-house. i talked to a clerk who
said they changed what they needed to change, but then a
few days later i get a note in the mail saying i was denied
my request for an absense but that wasn't what i intended
at all and the phone call was to correct that error on my
part. so i really had little faith in the system by the
time i got to the court-house and then went through the
rest of it.
i was paid $12.45 or so for the duty. i'd have done it
for free as a citizen, but really i thought it was rather
messy and they needed to fix their system - they had a lot
of phone recordings that they had to update each day and
by certain times. being some distance away from the
court-house here out in the sticks and during the winter
there was some moments where i doubted i would have been
on-time if they had called my group in since they didn't
update the phone messages very promptly.
having been through the whole process once now it won't
be so odd if i get called again - i sure hope they fixed
the issues...
songbird
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 25, 2020, 5:33:05 PM6/25/20
to
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 9:50:50 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Juror is a serious
> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
> hard evidence.
>
That's the truth. I've been a juror on a murder trial and it does cause
>
> Juror is a serious
> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
> hard evidence.
>
a person to stop and think how serious it is to have someone's future in
your hands. It wasn't hard to find the creep guilty, just deciding if it
was murder in the second degree, voluntary or involuntary manslaughter.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 25, 2020, 5:38:01 PM6/25/20
to
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 1:53:41 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>
> The jury decides on guilty or innocent, but the judge decides on the
> the death penalty or the length of the jail term, is that correct?
>
In Tennessee, the judge decides on the penalty. The criminal statute
>
> The jury decides on guilty or innocent, but the judge decides on the
> the death penalty or the length of the jail term, is that correct?
>
under which the person was convicted provides the appropriate sentence
for the particular crime.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 25, 2020, 5:41:12 PM6/25/20
to
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 2:19:35 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>
> I can probably be called for jury duty in Australia. I'd do everything
> I can to get out of it.
>
Why??? Jury duty is really, really interesting, at least it is here.
>
> I can probably be called for jury duty in Australia. I'd do everything
> I can to get out of it.
>
You get an idea of how a trial really works, how well the defense
attorney and the district attorney present their cases. And in some
cases, you get to see a cancer on society all spiffed up and washed
behind the ears to look presentable to the court.
Bruce
Jun 25, 2020, 6:21:56 PM6/25/20
to
waffling. Maybe it's worth it if the crime is interesting, but if it's
just another lowlife meth addict...
Bruce
Jun 25, 2020, 6:22:33 PM6/25/20
to
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 25, 2020, 7:45:45 PM6/25/20
to
the civil cases would be. I was in the pool of jurors to be selected for
the Vanderbilt rape case but they seated a jury before I was questioned.
jmcquown
Jun 25, 2020, 8:39:34 PM6/25/20
to
On 6/25/2020 7:41 AM, Gary wrote:
Jill
Hank Rogers
Jun 25, 2020, 8:47:27 PM6/25/20
to
an asshat like you would be the crime.
jmcquown
Jun 25, 2020, 8:59:45 PM6/25/20
to
On 6/25/2020 7:45 PM, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:21:56 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Why??? Jury duty is really, really interesting, at least it is here.
>>> You get an idea of how a trial really works, how well the defense
>>> attorney and the district attorney present their cases. And in some
>>> cases, you get to see a cancer on society all spiffed up and washed
>>> behind the ears to look presentable to the court.
>>
>> I think it would involve a lot of waiting, red tape and listening to
>> waffling. Maybe it's worth it if the crime is interesting, but if it's
>> just another lowlife meth addict...
>>
Just another lowlife meth addict who did what? Killed another person?
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:21:56 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Why??? Jury duty is really, really interesting, at least it is here.
>>> You get an idea of how a trial really works, how well the defense
>>> attorney and the district attorney present their cases. And in some
>>> cases, you get to see a cancer on society all spiffed up and washed
>>> behind the ears to look presentable to the court.
>>
>> I think it would involve a lot of waiting, red tape and listening to
>> waffling. Maybe it's worth it if the crime is interesting, but if it's
>> just another lowlife meth addict...
>>
> I've only served on criminal court cases. I have no idea how interesting
> the civil cases would be. I was in the pool of jurors to be selected for
> the Vanderbilt rape case but they seated a jury before I was questioned.
>
I was served with notice I'd been called to jury duty. There were about
30 other potential jurors waiting. We filled out some forms, were given
numbers and taken into a courtroom. We had to go through voir dire.
Most of us were immediately dismissed. The attorneys for both sides
were there, asking questions, looking for specific types of people to
fill the jury box in their favour. (It did seem to me the Judge was half
asleep or didn't really care about what was going on.)
Another dismissed potential juror did recommend a seafood restaurant as
I was walking towards my car in the parking lot. :)
Jill
jmcquown
Jun 25, 2020, 9:06:31 PM6/25/20
to
before a person is executed. Usually has to be a particularly heinous
crime and all legal appeals over the course of many years exhausted.
Miss Manners doesn't approve of this thread drift. ;)
Jill
Hank Rogers
Jun 25, 2020, 9:57:05 PM6/25/20
to
number. They'll shit if you just light up a cigarette.
And they don't even give you cream cheese, let alone fancy voir
dire they have in S. Carolina.
I guess jury duty here is more like alabama or texas. Nuthin fancy.
Hank Rogers
Jun 25, 2020, 9:58:37 PM6/25/20
to
Bruce
Jun 25, 2020, 10:16:25 PM6/25/20
to
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 20:59:40 -0400, jmcquown <j_mc...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>On 6/25/2020 7:45 PM, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:21:56 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why??? Jury duty is really, really interesting, at least it is here.
>>>> You get an idea of how a trial really works, how well the defense
>>>> attorney and the district attorney present their cases. And in some
>>>> cases, you get to see a cancer on society all spiffed up and washed
>>>> behind the ears to look presentable to the court.
>>>
>>> I think it would involve a lot of waiting, red tape and listening to
>>> waffling. Maybe it's worth it if the crime is interesting, but if it's
>>> just another lowlife meth addict...
>>>
>Just another lowlife meth addict who did what? Killed another person?
Yes, for instance.
>> I've only served on criminal court cases. I have no idea how interesting
>> the civil cases would be. I was in the pool of jurors to be selected for
>> the Vanderbilt rape case but they seated a jury before I was questioned.
>>
>I wouldn't have any problem serving on a jury. When I first moved here
>I was served with notice I'd been called to jury duty. There were about
>30 other potential jurors waiting. We filled out some forms, were given
>numbers and taken into a courtroom. We had to go through voir dire.
>Most of us were immediately dismissed. The attorneys for both sides
>were there, asking questions, looking for specific types of people to
>fill the jury box in their favour. (It did seem to me the Judge was half
>asleep or didn't really care about what was going on.)
>
>Another dismissed potential juror did recommend a seafood restaurant as
>I was walking towards my car in the parking lot. :)
Ok, maybe I'll go after all :)
wrote:
>On 6/25/2020 7:45 PM, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:21:56 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT), "itsjoan...@webtv.net"
>>> <itsjoan...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why??? Jury duty is really, really interesting, at least it is here.
>>>> You get an idea of how a trial really works, how well the defense
>>>> attorney and the district attorney present their cases. And in some
>>>> cases, you get to see a cancer on society all spiffed up and washed
>>>> behind the ears to look presentable to the court.
>>>
>>> I think it would involve a lot of waiting, red tape and listening to
>>> waffling. Maybe it's worth it if the crime is interesting, but if it's
>>> just another lowlife meth addict...
>>>
>Just another lowlife meth addict who did what? Killed another person?
>> I've only served on criminal court cases. I have no idea how interesting
>> the civil cases would be. I was in the pool of jurors to be selected for
>> the Vanderbilt rape case but they seated a jury before I was questioned.
>>
>I wouldn't have any problem serving on a jury. When I first moved here
>I was served with notice I'd been called to jury duty. There were about
>30 other potential jurors waiting. We filled out some forms, were given
>numbers and taken into a courtroom. We had to go through voir dire.
>Most of us were immediately dismissed. The attorneys for both sides
>were there, asking questions, looking for specific types of people to
>fill the jury box in their favour. (It did seem to me the Judge was half
>asleep or didn't really care about what was going on.)
>
>Another dismissed potential juror did recommend a seafood restaurant as
>I was walking towards my car in the parking lot. :)
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 25, 2020, 10:31:32 PM6/25/20
to
3rd degree instead of 1st degree making for a lesser sentence. Final
sentence is still on the judge but he is limited to that degree.
graham
Jun 25, 2020, 10:52:31 PM6/25/20
to
sentence and the execution. Shudder!!!!
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 25, 2020, 11:28:53 PM6/25/20
to
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 9:52:31 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>
> When the UK had the death penalty, three Sundays passed between the
> sentence and the execution. Shudder!!!!
>
Many times here it is 30 or more years before the accused receives his
>
> When the UK had the death penalty, three Sundays passed between the
> sentence and the execution. Shudder!!!!
>
just reward. We can thank lawyers for filing appeal after appeal.
Just last month one was granted another stay of execution because of the
Covid19 virus here in Tennessee.
Nemo
Jun 26, 2020, 1:00:22 AM6/26/20
to
Phoenix. It was on fire! I went home and called them up to tell them
I'd showed up. They said I'd been dismissed. I was glad as the pay was
only about $4.50 a day.
Ophelia
Jun 26, 2020, 6:25:22 AM6/26/20
to
"songbird" wrote in message news:q0afsg-...@anthive.com...
Good luck and thanks for sharing
Ophelia
Jun 26, 2020, 6:32:05 AM6/26/20
to
"Bruce" wrote in message news:l4u9fflerpoeu3cqb...@4ax.com...
Many years ago I was called for jury service here. I can't remember what
the case was. When we were in and lad in the dock was really arrogant. Not
sure why but the case was stopped and we were all able to leave. Apparently
there has to be a certain amount of time before a person can be called
again. But I've never heard anything since!!
dsi1
Jun 26, 2020, 6:58:00 AM6/26/20
to
Gary
Jun 26, 2020, 8:22:32 AM6/26/20
to
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
personal income, just your juror pay for the trial.
I was in the middle of a job when I got called for jury
duty. Rather than making $250 that day, I got paid $20
for my day in court.
The jurors are the lowest paid shanghaied schmucks.
The judge is paid well for his day.
The lawyers are paid well. Even the deputys and all
other court people get paid well for their time.
Us jurors got paid $20 for the day. Not even close
to minimum wage.
All this city money spent to try a fellow that
shoplifted "a $5 box of steak."
I was so damn mad at how frivolous this trial was.
I was *so* tempted to stand up and open my wallet
and give the grocery store the $5 stupid money, and
say "Here's your 5, let's all go home."
Naturally, judge wouldn't have liked that.
Even worse... this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
(3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
But we shouldn't consider that. Our job was to only
determine if he was guilty or not. Well he shouldn't
have told us the penality then.
Imagine what 8 years in prison would cost the state too.
All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
community service would have been a better sentence.
Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
just so wrong.
Luckily, the trial was dismissed before it ended. WHEW!
He had ditched that steak before they chased him down so
they really didn't have any real proof.
Two weeks later, I got called in for another trial.
Waited around for 2 hours then right before the trial,
a deal was made so we all got sent home.
Another worthless $20 a day in the court system.
At least that time, I got to work on my own that afternoon.
>
> Gary wrote:
> > I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
> > case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> > part of convicting one innocent person.
> >
> > And in the entire court system, the "shanghaied" jurors are
> > the lowest paid schmucks.
>
> Really? I sat on a jury and voted not guilty in a criminal trial
> based on the evidence (which wasn't much, in this case). I'm not
> a low-paid schmuck.
You misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't talking about your
> Gary wrote:
> > I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
> > case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> > part of convicting one innocent person.
> >
> > And in the entire court system, the "shanghaied" jurors are
> > the lowest paid schmucks.
>
> Really? I sat on a jury and voted not guilty in a criminal trial
> based on the evidence (which wasn't much, in this case). I'm not
> a low-paid schmuck.
personal income, just your juror pay for the trial.
I was in the middle of a job when I got called for jury
duty. Rather than making $250 that day, I got paid $20
for my day in court.
The jurors are the lowest paid shanghaied schmucks.
The judge is paid well for his day.
The lawyers are paid well. Even the deputys and all
other court people get paid well for their time.
Us jurors got paid $20 for the day. Not even close
to minimum wage.
All this city money spent to try a fellow that
shoplifted "a $5 box of steak."
I was so damn mad at how frivolous this trial was.
I was *so* tempted to stand up and open my wallet
and give the grocery store the $5 stupid money, and
say "Here's your 5, let's all go home."
Naturally, judge wouldn't have liked that.
Even worse... this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
(3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
But we shouldn't consider that. Our job was to only
determine if he was guilty or not. Well he shouldn't
have told us the penality then.
Imagine what 8 years in prison would cost the state too.
All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
community service would have been a better sentence.
Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
just so wrong.
Luckily, the trial was dismissed before it ended. WHEW!
He had ditched that steak before they chased him down so
they really didn't have any real proof.
Two weeks later, I got called in for another trial.
Waited around for 2 hours then right before the trial,
a deal was made so we all got sent home.
Another worthless $20 a day in the court system.
At least that time, I got to work on my own that afternoon.
Dave Smith
Jun 26, 2020, 9:01:34 AM6/26/20
to
On 2020-06-25 11:28 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 9:52:31 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>>
>> When the UK had the death penalty, three Sundays passed between the
>> sentence and the execution. Shudder!!!!
>>
> Many times here it is 30 or more years before the accused receives his
> just reward. We can thank lawyers for filing appeal after appeal.
After that amount of time some of the witnesses will be gone and the
> On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 9:52:31 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>>
>> When the UK had the death penalty, three Sundays passed between the
>> sentence and the execution. Shudder!!!!
>>
> Many times here it is 30 or more years before the accused receives his
> just reward. We can thank lawyers for filing appeal after appeal.
evidence perhaps mislaid. They end up getting acquitted for lack of
evidence, not necessarily because the were actually innocent.
>
> Just last month one was granted another stay of execution because of the
> Covid19 virus here in Tennessee.
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 26, 2020, 9:25:15 AM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 8:22:32 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > Gary wrote:
> > > I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
> > > case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> > > part of convicting one innocent person.
> > >
> > > And in the entire court system, the "shanghaied" jurors are
> > > the lowest paid schmucks.
> >
> > Really? I sat on a jury and voted not guilty in a criminal trial
> > based on the evidence (which wasn't much, in this case). I'm not
> > a low-paid schmuck.
>
> You misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't talking about your
> personal income, just your juror pay for the trial.
>
> I was in the middle of a job when I got called for jury
> duty. Rather than making $250 that day, I got paid $20
> for my day in court.
When I was on jury duty, I was paid by my employer just as if I
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > Gary wrote:
> > > I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
> > > case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> > > part of convicting one innocent person.
> > >
> > > And in the entire court system, the "shanghaied" jurors are
> > > the lowest paid schmucks.
> >
> > Really? I sat on a jury and voted not guilty in a criminal trial
> > based on the evidence (which wasn't much, in this case). I'm not
> > a low-paid schmuck.
>
> You misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't talking about your
> personal income, just your juror pay for the trial.
>
> I was in the middle of a job when I got called for jury
> duty. Rather than making $250 that day, I got paid $20
> for my day in court.
had been at work.
Cindy Hamilton
Dave Smith
Jun 26, 2020, 9:27:52 AM6/26/20
to
On 2020-06-26 6:57 a.m., dsi1 wrote:
> I went to the courthouse years ago for jury selection. We was waiting
> around and a guy came out and told us the defendant had made a plea
> deal and we could go. This is where a the defendant pleads guilty or
> no-contest and waives a trial. This saves the system and everybody
> involved time and money. The judge is so happy about it that he's
> willing to give a lighter sentence. American justice loves to save
> time and money! Who the heck doesn't?
Pleas can be a good deal. The accused may not get the serious sentence
> I went to the courthouse years ago for jury selection. We was waiting
> around and a guy came out and told us the defendant had made a plea
> deal and we could go. This is where a the defendant pleads guilty or
> no-contest and waives a trial. This saves the system and everybody
> involved time and money. The judge is so happy about it that he's
> willing to give a lighter sentence. American justice loves to save
> time and money! Who the heck doesn't?
he deserves, but it does save time and money, and it sometimes saves the
victim the ordeal of testifying and being cross examined.
On the flip side, the prosecution sometimes offers a deal because they
may not have a really solid case. I have gone to court twice on my
wife's behalf, and got the charges dropped both times.
The first time I asked them to drop the charge and was told they could
not because it was before the court. Well, that is rubbish, because when
the case is called it can be withdrawn. She had pulled out our our
driveway and did not speeding car that clipped her. She was charged
with failing to yield at an unmarked intersection. The driveway is
actually an unopened road allowance. I did not tell them that. I
pointed out the location noted on the accident report. It was the
intersection 1/2 mile down the road. The prosecutor talked to the
witness and to the cop and consulted someone else and when the case was
called they agreed that the location did not fit the definition of an
intersection. She said the charge should have been Careless Driving.
Perhaps so, but it wasn't.
The more recent one was fender bender in which she was charged for
unsafe passing on the right. The prosecutor agreed to reduce it to
following too close. Nope. Still points involved. I fought it. I had
measured the road. It was extremely wide.... wide enough for two lanes.
The other car was way over to the left and she was to the right, which
is the proper driving position. He turned into a driveway just past
the intersection. She was not passing him. He suddenly slowed and
turned, and without signalling. All that bluster from the prosecutor and
he left it to his assistant to come and tell me they would be
withdrawing it.
Gary
Jun 26, 2020, 9:28:13 AM6/26/20
to
Bruce wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:41:08 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >I see that on the news way too often. Someone convicted then
> >released many years later after found innocent. That's
> >so wrong. Many times, certain evidence is withheld in
> >a trial.
> >
> >This is why I would refuse to vote guilty when on a jury.
> >
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:41:08 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >I see that on the news way too often. Someone convicted then
> >released many years later after found innocent. That's
> >so wrong. Many times, certain evidence is withheld in
> >a trial.
> >
> >This is why I would refuse to vote guilty when on a jury.
> >
> >I could be a juror on a civil case but never a criminal
> >case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> >part of convicting one innocent person.
>
> >case. I'd rather let 100 guilty people go than be a
> >part of convicting one innocent person.
>
> The jury decides on guilty or innocent, but the judge decides on the
> the death penalty or the length of the jail term, is that correct?
Correct. See my other post about my day in court on a jury.
> the death penalty or the length of the jail term, is that correct?
Gary
Jun 26, 2020, 9:28:44 AM6/26/20
to
Bruce wrote:
transportation claim will do it.
Cindy can do her "civic duty" and mine too.
>
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >I would never try to get out of jury duty. Because "duty".
>
> I can probably be called for jury duty in Australia. I'd do everything
> I can to get out of it.
Definitely try to get out of it. Normally, a lack of reliable
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >I would never try to get out of jury duty. Because "duty".
>
> I can probably be called for jury duty in Australia. I'd do everything
> I can to get out of it.
transportation claim will do it.
Cindy can do her "civic duty" and mine too.
Gary
Jun 26, 2020, 9:31:38 AM6/26/20
to
He wasn't very happy about it. ;)
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 10:36:15 AM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 5:58:00 AM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
>
> I went to the courthouse years ago for jury selection. We was waiting around and a guy came out and told us the defendant had made a plea deal and we could go. . The judge is so happy about it that he's willing to give a lighter sentence.
>
Really?? That must be a peculiarity of Hawaiian courts.
>
> I went to the courthouse years ago for jury selection. We was waiting around and a guy came out and told us the defendant had made a plea deal and we could go. . The judge is so happy about it that he's willing to give a lighter sentence.
>
Really?? That must be a peculiarity of Hawaiian courts.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 10:41:15 AM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 7:22:32 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>
> this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
> arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
> guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
> (3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
>
>
> this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
> arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
> guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
> (3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
>
> Imagine what 8 years in prison would cost the state too.
> All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
>
Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
>
behavior.
>
> I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
> 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
> community service would have been a better sentence.
>
He shouldn't have a lowlife thief if he didn't like the idea of prison.
> I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
> 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
> community service would have been a better sentence.
>
>
> Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
> that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
> vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
> just so wrong.
>
So, you already had your mind made up instead of listening to all sides
> Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
> that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
> vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
> just so wrong.
>
and consider what you'd heard in the courtroom.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 10:46:23 AM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 8:01:34 AM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> On 2020-06-25 11:28 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> > Many times here it is 30 or more years before the accused receives his
> > just reward. We can thank lawyers for filing appeal after appeal.
>
>
> After that amount of time some of the witnesses will be gone and the
> evidence perhaps mislaid. They end up getting acquitted for lack of
> evidence, not necessarily because the were actually innocent.
>
They're not acquitted, they've been found guilty and the lawyers are
>
> On 2020-06-25 11:28 p.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> > Many times here it is 30 or more years before the accused receives his
> > just reward. We can thank lawyers for filing appeal after appeal.
>
>
> After that amount of time some of the witnesses will be gone and the
> evidence perhaps mislaid. They end up getting acquitted for lack of
> evidence, not necessarily because the were actually innocent.
>
dragging out the sentence being carried out. The cancer on society is
sitting in jail and getting three meals a day and receiving visitations
from his family. Meanwhile, the family of his victim(s) are visiting a
grave.
>
> > Just last month one was granted another stay of execution because of the
> > Covid19 virus here in Tennessee.
>
>
> That seems like an odd reason to stay an execution.
>
ANYTHING, absolutely anything to delay their just reward.
> > Just last month one was granted another stay of execution because of the
> > Covid19 virus here in Tennessee.
>
>
> That seems like an odd reason to stay an execution.
>
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 10:46:53 AM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 8:25:15 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> When I was on jury duty, I was paid by my employer just as if I
> had been at work.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
I was, too.
>
> When I was on jury duty, I was paid by my employer just as if I
> had been at work.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
Gary
Jun 26, 2020, 12:36:02 PM6/26/20
to
"itsjoan...@webtv.net" wrote:
>
> Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> behavior.
Even 5 years in prison for shoplifting $5 worth of steaks?
>
> Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> behavior.
> >
> > I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
> > 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
> > community service would have been a better sentence.
> >
> He shouldn't have a lowlife thief if he didn't like the idea of prison.
> >
> > Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
> > that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
> > vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
> > just so wrong.
> >
> So, you already had your mind made up instead of listening to all sides
> and consider what you'd heard in the courtroom.
that the guy was guilty. I still wasn't going to vote to send him
to prison for many years for that. Just because something is
"official" doens't make it right.
After the trial was dismissed, I talked to a couple of other
jurors on the way out to our cars. Both agreed with me that
the guy was obviously guilty but the harsh sentence was
way overboard. Both had also planned to vote not guilty.
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 26, 2020, 12:39:14 PM6/26/20
to
On 6/25/2020 3:20 PM, songbird wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> ...
>> Depends on the evidence. Real evidence, not something possibly pulled
>> out of the DA's ass to get a conviction. Juror is a serious
>> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
>> hard evidence.
>
> i am in the mood to write this down so skip if you don't
> want a wind-bag of story... :)
>
> my experience so far with jury duty was that i was glad to
> not be chosen for a "he-said"/"she-said" domestic violence
> case, but since i wasn't chosen i didn't stay to hear the
> finer details. i was next in line though if someone else
> had gotten out of it i'd have been possibly chosen - but i
> think i would have had to admit i had a negative opinion
> of the guy from the start...
>
> from the beginning the guy was going to defend himself
> (and was doing a real poor job of it in the jury selection
> part) and i doubt he won just based upon how bad that went.
>
> songbird
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> ...
>> Depends on the evidence. Real evidence, not something possibly pulled
>> out of the DA's ass to get a conviction. Juror is a serious
>> responsibility and I would do my best to be fair and only convict on
>> hard evidence.
>
> i am in the mood to write this down so skip if you don't
> want a wind-bag of story... :)
>
> my experience so far with jury duty was that i was glad to
> not be chosen for a "he-said"/"she-said" domestic violence
> case, but since i wasn't chosen i didn't stay to hear the
> finer details. i was next in line though if someone else
> had gotten out of it i'd have been possibly chosen - but i
> think i would have had to admit i had a negative opinion
> of the guy from the start...
>
> from the beginning the guy was going to defend himself
> (and was doing a real poor job of it in the jury selection
> part) and i doubt he won just based upon how bad that went.
>
>
Not sure what I would do, but I'd try to be impartial. Some people do
seem kind of sleazy so human nature would make it easy to lean to guilty
in spite of evidence. Easy to say sitting at a keyboard versus hearing
testimony. Cases like that can be difficult to determine who it
truthful. Good chance nither for part of it.
dsi1
Jun 26, 2020, 1:17:11 PM6/26/20
to
Dave Smith
Jun 26, 2020, 1:17:13 PM6/26/20
to
On 2020-06-26 10:41 a.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 7:22:32 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>>
>> this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
>> arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
>> guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
>> (3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
>>
>> Imagine what 8 years in prison would cost the state too.
>> All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
>>
> Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> behavior.
>>
And of course he got caught the one and only time he ever stole something.
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 7:22:32 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>>
>> this was the fellow's 3rd shoplifting
>> arrest. The judge informed us that if we find him
>> guilty, he faced 8 years in the state prison.
>> (3 misdeamors = a felony in Virginia)
>>
>> Imagine what 8 years in prison would cost the state too.
>> All for stealing a $5 box of steak. (I assumed Steakums).
>>
> Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> behavior.
>>
>> I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
>> 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
>> community service would have been a better sentence.
>>
> He shouldn't have a lowlife thief if he didn't like the idea of prison.
>>
>> Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
>> that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
>> vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
>> just so wrong.
>>
> So, you already had your mind made up instead of listening to all sides
> and consider what you'd heard in the courtroom.
>
are supposed to listen to the evidence and decide on the basis of that
whether or not the person did it.
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 26, 2020, 1:27:27 PM6/26/20
to
pay. My employer said the paperwork was more than they would save
making the adjustment.
https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/employees-rights-for-jury-duty-leave
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 26, 2020, 1:34:15 PM6/26/20
to
kids? Just to cheap to pay? Perhaps some other intervention would be
more appropriate.
In reality, if he was caught three times he probably got away with it
many times too. The purpose of the 3X rule is to discourage but
evidently does not always work.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 2:21:39 PM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 11:36:02 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>
> "itsjoan...@webtv.net" wrote:
> >
> > Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> > behavior.
>
> Even 5 years in prison for shoplifting $5 worth of steaks?
>
Don't be a damn thief if you do want to land in the pokey!! No telling
>
> "itsjoan...@webtv.net" wrote:
> >
> > Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> > behavior.
>
> Even 5 years in prison for shoplifting $5 worth of steaks?
>
what else that bottom feeder had stolen.
> > >
> > > I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
> > > 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
> > > community service would have been a better sentence.
> > >
> > He shouldn't have a lowlife thief if he didn't like the idea of prison.
>
> Agreed but the sentence was way overkill.
>
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It's not hard to understand.
> > > I also was NOT going to vote to send him to prison for
> > > 8 years just for that. I would think some hours of
> > > community service would have been a better sentence.
> > >
> > He shouldn't have a lowlife thief if he didn't like the idea of prison.
>
> Agreed but the sentence was way overkill.
>
> > >
> > > Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
> > > that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
> > > vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
> > > just so wrong.
> > >
> > So, you already had your mind made up instead of listening to all sides
> > and consider what you'd heard in the courtroom.
>
> As I said, I listened to all sides that morning and was convinced
> that the guy was guilty. I still wasn't going to vote to send him
> to prison for many years for that. Just because something is
> "official" doens't make it right.
>
> After the trial was dismissed, I talked to a couple of other
> jurors on the way out to our cars. Both agreed with me that
> the guy was obviously guilty but the harsh sentence was
> way overboard. Both had also planned to vote not guilty.
>
A bunch of Perry Mason wanna-be's.
> > > Anyway the trial went on all morning. I was convinced
> > > that the defendant was guilty but I was NOT going to
> > > vote that. Not with that harsh sentence. That was
> > > just so wrong.
> > >
> > So, you already had your mind made up instead of listening to all sides
> > and consider what you'd heard in the courtroom.
>
> As I said, I listened to all sides that morning and was convinced
> that the guy was guilty. I still wasn't going to vote to send him
> to prison for many years for that. Just because something is
> "official" doens't make it right.
>
> After the trial was dismissed, I talked to a couple of other
> jurors on the way out to our cars. Both agreed with me that
> the guy was obviously guilty but the harsh sentence was
> way overboard. Both had also planned to vote not guilty.
>
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 2:23:54 PM6/26/20
to
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:17:13 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> On 2020-06-26 10:41 a.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> >
> > Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> > behavior.
> >>
>
> And of course he got caught the one and only time he ever stole something.
>
Hahahahahahahaaaaaa, yeah!
>
> On 2020-06-26 10:41 a.m., itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
> >
> > Pffttt. He probably would have been out in less than 5 years with good
> > behavior.
> >>
>
> And of course he got caught the one and only time he ever stole something.
>
>
> Maybe juries should not know the penalties the accused is facing. They
> are supposed to listen to the evidence and decide on the basis of that
> whether or not the person did it.
>
That's true.
> Maybe juries should not know the penalties the accused is facing. They
> are supposed to listen to the evidence and decide on the basis of that
> whether or not the person did it.
>
Cindy Hamilton
Jun 26, 2020, 2:31:44 PM6/26/20
to
least it defrayed my cost for parking.
Cindy Hamilton
Dave Smith
Jun 26, 2020, 2:40:26 PM6/26/20
to
to court as a witness for various police forces over the years. I would
be paid a witness fee. I would cash that cheque and write one of equal
value and turn it over to my boss along with the paperwork and I would
be paid my regular pay, and that was a hell of a lot more than the
paltry witness fee.
LOL thinking about a guy who told me he was going to fight one of my
tickets so that I would have to come in to court on my Day off. I told
him that was not a problem. That court house was 5 miles from my house.
It would take me 15 minutes to get there. That was a light court for
us so it rarely lasted more than an hour. I would get travel allowance
and time and a half for overtime for a minimum of four hours. Go for
it.
itsjoan...@webtv.net
Jun 26, 2020, 2:54:15 PM6/26/20
to
is free. My company always paid us our salary and you're probably right, the
bookkeeping was probably too much of a hassle over such a pittance.
Bruce
Jun 26, 2020, 3:39:02 PM6/26/20
to
jmcquown
Jun 26, 2020, 5:24:43 PM6/26/20
to
Jill
Hank Rogers
Jun 26, 2020, 6:01:54 PM6/26/20
to
sniffers as essential workers.
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