cook upset
Marilyn Warner
experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
alienated.
Stan Horwitz
: Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
There's certainly nothing wrong with being a vegetarian, but to announce
a sudden change to vegetarianism upon arrival to a dinner party is totally
inconsiderate. The hostess could not be expected to be psychic. If the guest
didn't want to eat meat, he should have made his preference known beforehand
to allow the hostess to accommodate his diet (if she wanted to) or he should
have just kept his mouth shut and not eaten the dishes he didn't want to eat.
--
My name is Stan Horwitz and my E-mail address is st...@astro.ocis.temple.edu
My opinions are all mine. They do not reflect those of my employer.
John David Auwen
the night with us about once/month. I keep some "Harvest Burgers" in
the freezer just for him. He eats the same meal as the rest of us except
he gets a grilled harvest burger in place of the meat. Sometimes my
own kids opt to have a harvest burger as well.
I'll bet you could make a pretty good "meat loaf" out of those harvest
burgers. Has anyone tried it?
Dave
au...@convex.com
Barbara Mayo-Wells
yes, this cook was upset!!! However, upon reflection, I decided that his
choice (which was made on humanitarian grounds) wasn't something I should
take personally.
I also decided that, because his visits do brighten my life, I'd add some
vegetarian dishes to my repertoire. I quickly learned to love the Moosewood
Sunday Cookbook (which has a bunch of recipes from around the world), and
have used it as a model for de-animaling some of my other recipes.
Some of the vegetarian dishes have become my new favorites (there's an
African peanut soup from Moosewood that's out of this world, and mushroom
strata is a tasty dish), and I was amazed to realize on my last trip to
the grocery store that it had been months since I bought meat!! (I still
do use eggs and dairy products.... I've just come to prefer a meatless
cuisine.)
Bottom line: Yup, the cook could be upset. But then s/he could also
seize the opportunity to broaden the range of gourmet food s/he serves.
Grace and peace from BMW (no, not the car)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for you are crunchy and good with catsup.
fremont
>
> Marilyn Warner (mar...@nwlink.com) wrote:
> : Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
> : experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
> : announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
> : foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
> : cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
> : is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
> : fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
> : let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
> : hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
> : alienated.
>
> There's certainly nothing wrong with being a vegetarian, but to announce
> a sudden change to vegetarianism upon arrival to a dinner party is totally
> inconsiderate. The hostess could not be expected to be psychic. If the guest
> didn't want to eat meat, he should have made his preference known beforehand
> to allow the hostess to accommodate his diet (if she wanted to) or he should
> have just kept his mouth shut and not eaten the dishes he didn't want to eat.
>
(ranting mode on)
I agree with Stan completely. The "animals who have been killed" is the
part that annoys me. If that's your (generic "your") belief, then great.
It's admirable to have convictions. But the other guests don't feel
that way, and it only serves to essentially call them killers. Nice
friend. Say "I'm now a vegetarian" and shut up and eat the other stuff.
There's an old Bloom County comic strip where Milo ruins Thanksgiving
for everyone when he is asked to say grace because he says "His name was
*****, but now he's dead and we're gonna eat him".
(ranting mode off)
Rich
Sue M. Ford
>>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and
>would not eat
>>foods prepared from animals that had been killed.
If he meant "animals that had been killed specifically for
food", then the hostess can take this as a challenge. She can
get a copy of "The Roadkill Cookbook" and let loose with her
creative juices!
Sue
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.
Dan Schwarcz
>experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
>fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
>let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
>hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
>alienated.
I can understand being agitated if the vegetarianism was suddenly
announced after an elaborate meal had been prepared. To not advise
the cook of the dietary change prior to attending was extremely rude,
given the fact that he was a frequent dinner guest, and so some of
the food was prepared with his tastes/preferences in mind.
But, other than the element of suprise, why would someone be upset
or alienated? If the guest announced that he had just discovered
that he was allergic to peanuts, or that the doctor had put him on
a low-carbohydrate diet, or that he was converting to Judaism and
could no longer eat the same things, why would that be taken as a
criticism or attack on the cook?
Vegetarianism is a personal choice, sometimes based on religious
or philosophical convictions, sometimes on health concerns, and
sometimes just on taste and preference. As long as the guest doesn't
preach to and condemn those who eat meat, I can't see anyone getting
upset or defensive about what the person has decided is the right
thing for him.
And, as a person who rarely cooks with meat for non-vegetarian reasons
(mostly a combination of the hassles of buying Kosher meat locally
combined with the difficulty of eating a lowfat meat-based meal) I
have to say that a creative and imaginative cook should have no
trouble producing a dish or two that a vegetarian could eat, and that
would still meet her exacting standards.
So, unless the guest delivered the announcement at an inapropriate time,
or is a pushy sanctimonious boor about it, I don't see any reason for
the cook or anyone else to get upset.
Dan Schwarcz
Deborah Stevenson
>Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
>fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
>let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
>hearing that decision?
How *would* I feel or how *should* I feel :-)? Seriously, it depends on
how this "announcement" was made. If the guest banged on a glass with a
spoon, stood up, and spoke to the hushed crowd just after the prime rib
was served, s/he was rude. If the hostess, after observing that the
guest kept shoving the chicken to the side of the plate while spooning
out more coleslaw, inquired about a problem and the guest said "Well,
actually, I'm a vegetarian," nobody was particularly rude, although the
truly polite guest would add "and I'm overjoyed at being able to
experience this delicious coleslaw."
The responses to the first and second instances shouldn't actually, I
think, be that different. In the first case you say, "How nice for you;
we hope you'll enjoy the potatoes and coleslaw and there's plenty more in
the kitchen." In the second, you might want to say it with a bit more
warmth :-). In both cases, I would advise dropping the subject
immediately thereafter.
I would gently suggest that this is totally unrelated to the excellence
of the hostess's cooking, and that, while we all on r.f.c. enjoy (to one
extent or another) fete-ing people with food, the food is not actually
the reason we gather our friends together, and a rejection of the hostess's
food doesn't have to translate into a rejection of the hostess. Whether or
not the hostess prepares vegetarian alternatives for this person in future
will depend on the friendship and its habits, largely. Generally the rule
for those of us with problems of dietary avoidance (I'm lactose-intolerant)
is to make do with what's there and ignore what we can't eat. Obviously a
serious vegan is going to have difficulty with that, which is why it goes back
to the friendship question. The person should also be allowed to decline
food-centered invitations without condemnation and, if a friendship is
still considered extant, might be invited to join the hostess at times when
food is not so central to the entertainment.
BTW, if this person can't come to dinner *without* explaining the moral
purity of his/her dietary choices, s/he is probably too boring to retain
as a friend :-).
You could also just have the hostess invite *me* to dinner :-).
Just my 2 chocolate cents.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Chicago, IL, USA
LizR
>Tonight a frequent dinner guest announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian
>and would not eat foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The
>primary cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In fact, her
>dinners have always been the focal point of the day, let alone of her
The dinner guest may simply get invited less often or need to bring a
dish which will compensate if the meal is not to their taste. Alot of
cooking is very easy without meat. For Italian, just reserve some of the
sauce and then add meat to the rest. If you are serving roast chicken, they
just get the veggies. They are making a choice and they cannot expect you to
completely alter your eating habits in order to accomodate them. However, it
is also nice for you to make the effort to accomodate them to a certain
degree. But they need to realize that if they drop by for dinner without 24
hours notice, they may end up with a plate of lettuce and a bun to eat because
you're serving hamburgers.
LizR
Andy Pforzheimer
In article <3on1ir$8...@alaska.nwlink.com>, Marilyn Warner (mar...@nwlink.com) writes:
>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
>fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
>let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
>hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
>alienated.
I would politely inquire whether, being new at this, if you were to
rip his head off and stuff it down his neck cavity that would be
considered "eating?"
It depends, I suppose, on how he announced it. But you have my
suggestion.
Andy
>
>
Anne Bourget
: Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
: announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
: foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
: cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
: is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
: fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
: let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
: hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
: alienated.
Just don't invite the pompous idiot to dinner again. Vegetarian or not,
from your report it sounds as though he was very rude. Life is too short
to peel asparagus or put up with rude people, yet from time to time I
have done both.
Anne
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Anne Bourget bou...@netcom.com
sharon badian
|> Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
|> experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
|> announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
|> foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
|> cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
|> is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
|> fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
|> let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
|> hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
|> alienated.
Well, I certainly wouldn't take it as a insult to my cooking ability.
He's making a moral decision. It's his to make. Given that there are
tons of excellent vegetarian recipes on which to show your cooking
prowess (if you need references, I got 'em), it's not like he's
severely limiting a cook's ability to show off and shine.
I have friends who are vegetarians (though none that have declared
themselves so during our friendship) and we get along just fine. I
know they don't eat meat and I cook for them accordingly. As I said,
not being able to use meat has not limited or detracted from my
cooking so far. Now, if they announced they were becoming a vegan,
that would be a bit more difficult to deal with, cooking-wise.
--
Sharon Badian
AT&T Bell Labs - Denver
se...@dr.att.com
Mark Thorson
Marilyn Warner <mar...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
>experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
I should cross-post this to rec.food.veg. There's a fellow over
there by the name of Jai Maharaj would probably would have an
opinion. On second thought, perhaps not :-)
Bill Hilbrich
: >Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
: >experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
: >announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
: >foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
: >cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
IF this "frequent guest" was a potential Significant Other, I am afraid
that you had better start looking again...Sudden changes in moods and
ideas are generally part of the persons personality. On the other hand if
you are already related to this "guest", then you need to consider the
age of the person.
Children, between the ages of 12 and 25 will suddenly announce lifestyle
changes, but then after awhile, they will just a suddenly announce new
lifestyle changes depending on a wide variety of factors. Since they feel
somewhat ignored by thier elders, they feel justified in adding just a
little to much drama. Might try reading Catcher in the Rye again.....
Older adults, like maybe your parents may also do this to you, and I
would suggest a quiet chat with the family physician if the mood swings
seem totally out of character. Menopause in Men as well as Women will
sometimes trigger seemingly inappropriate announcements.
But You ( and I am sure others) wanted to know what to do... First of all
do not take it personally, even if you are accused of being the sole
cause of the wholesale butchering of Earths Wildlife...After all, we did
not develop pointed Eye Teeth just to poke holes in Oranges!!!!
Again, if the person is young, let them eat veggies for awhile and they
will decide. If they are old, seek professional advice, or at least
reassurance. If it was a potential Significant Other, decide if you are
willing and able to withstand a series of suprises and maybe some very
new experiences.
Bill Hilbrich
Student of Humanity and
Nasty Protector of White Swans
Marilyn Warner
Good ideas for accommodating vegetarian guests. Thanks. What really
struck me, though, was the emotional distress in discovering that,
after years of sharing delicious food experiences, we are no longer to
be on the same footing on that subject. I sensed a loss of
community. The cook I mentioned felt a loss of communication,
since preparing mutually enjoyable meals was/is one of her ways
of expressing affection. Whoa! Watch out! She may shift gears
into a new mode!! (grin-gasp)
bmai...@eyecon.com
Mar...@nohost.com (sorry, my site truncated your address to that) writes:
IM>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
IM>experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
IM>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
IM>foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
IM>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
IM>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
IM>fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
IM>let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
IM>hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
IM>alienated.
This is somewhat similar to a query I had last summer (guests announcing
food preferences _after_ they arrive and the meal's been prepared). But
in your post you have several things going on.
1. The first is described above. I feel that if the guest _is_ a
frequent visitor (and therefore friend), s/he was being rude in
announcing this change of life _after_ the meal was prepared.
2. It is difficult, if not primarily unaesthetic, to eat foods from
animals that have not been killed (shellfish not withstanding).
3. Your friend, who as you say is an EXCELLENT cook, now has a chance
to be an excellent vegetarian (probably vegan from your description)
cook! Your post makes it sound as if you consider veggie fare to be
somehow inferior to meat meals. (that is, should your friend decide to
invite this person to dinner again).
--
****************
Via: Eye Contact BBS telnet: bbs.eyecon.com (204.94.37.2)
Modem:(415) 703-8200 Voice:(800) 949-2668 150 lines
****************
Sheri McRae
> In article <3on1ir$8...@alaska.nwlink.com> Marilyn Warner
<mar...@nwlink.com> writes:
> >Tonight a frequent dinner guest announced that he was henceforth a
vegetarian
> >and would not eat foods prepared from animals that had been killed. <snip> I
> >confess that I, myself, feel somewhat alienated.
>
>
> The dinner guest may simply get invited less often or need to bring a
> dish which will compensate if the meal is not to their taste. Alot of
> cooking is very easy without meat. For Italian, just reserve some of the
> sauce and then add meat to the rest. If you are serving roast chicken, they
> just get the veggies. They are making a choice and they cannot expect you to
> completely alter your eating habits in order to accomodate them. However, it
> is also nice for you to make the effort to accomodate them to a certain
> degree. But they need to realize that if they drop by for dinner without 24
> hours notice, they may end up with a plate of lettuce and a bun to eat
because
> you're serving hamburgers.
>
> LizR
Yes, Liz, I agree with you and I'm a vegetarian. And from my standpoint
that's *exactly* what I want. No special meals, no special food, and no
special attention to my quirky eating habit. You'd be surprised how good
hamburgers are without the bun. I get all the best parts! I've even
ordered them that way in hamburger joints. Give me a burger - hold the
beef.
Sheri
Sheri McRae she...@zeta.org.au
Ron Miyaguchi
Bill Hilbrich <hilb...@magellan.cloudnet.com> wrote:
>IF this "frequent guest" was a potential Significant Other, I am afraid
>that you had better start looking again...Sudden changes in moods and
>ideas are generally part of the persons personality.
>
[snip!]
>Older adults, like maybe your parents may also do this to you, and I
>would suggest a quiet chat with the family physician if the mood swings
>seem totally out of character. Menopause in Men as well as Women will
>sometimes trigger seemingly inappropriate announcements.
>
[snip]
>Again, if the person is young, let them eat veggies for awhile and they
>will decide. If they are old, seek professional advice, or at least
>reassurance.
[snip]
Whoa, I think you're missing a buncha smileys someplace, aren't you? These
are pretty large leaps of inference can get you in pretty deep water, based on
the little info available to you. It's hard to get a flavor of the nature of
the interaction, but while I can see this method and manner of announcing a
change in lifestyle can be disconcerting and disruptive, I would not want to
sound the alarms just because this guest chose to eat the greens and leave the
browns.
In general, I wholeheartedly support vegetarianism, and feel that there are
a variety of factors that influence one's choice of what to eat. On the other
hand, what's right for me might not be what's right for you, and respect for
one's choices is a two-way street - I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
>
>Bill Hilbrich
>Student of Humanity and
Keep studying!
Ronbo
LizR
>I would politely inquire whether, being new at this, if you were to
>rip his head off and stuff it down his neck cavity that would be
>considered "eating?"
Great, Andy. Now I have to wipe Diet Coke off my screen. ;>
Thanks for the best laugh of the morning!
LizR
Lester Heitlinger, R.B.P.
experience. We had two guests for dinner. They come from New England. My
darling wife prepared an excellent fish dinner. Our guest's wife tasted
the fish and then told her husband out loud "Don't eat the fish. It isn't
fresh!". We were flabergasted at such rudeness. We are still friends but
they will never be invited to our house again for dinner.
*****************************************************************************
Lester D. Heitlinger, R.B.P. Nikon, It takes a licking
heit...@soleil.acomp.usf.edu and keeps on clicking.
Catherine E Bean
: Children, between the ages of 12 and 25 will suddenly announce lifestyle
: lifestyle changes depending on a wide variety of factors. Since they feel
: somewhat ignored by thier elders, they feel justified in adding just a
: little to much drama. Might try reading Catcher in the Rye again.....
: Older adults, like maybe your parents may also do this to you, and I
: would suggest a quiet chat with the family physician if the mood swings
: seem totally out of character. Menopause in Men as well as Women will
: sometimes trigger seemingly inappropriate announcements.
Alright, I know lots of people have already answered this post, but I still
feel that, as a vegetarian, I have to defend my choice. Maybe Mr. Hilbrich
didn't mean to imply this, but I resent the implication that adults who
announce that they have converted to a vegetarian lifestyle are in some way
suspect, subject to "mood swings" that might merit the advice of a physician,
and who might be in some way childish--one major decision like this doesn't
mean the person is a nut, and it doesn't mean that he's weird--lots of people
choose not to eat meat, some as early as very early childhood (like me) and
some much later in life. I don't think any of us vegetarians really expect
the world to stop for us. If we haven't told someone we're veg., we don't
expect them to just know, or to cater to our needs over others. The guy in the
original post sounds like a clod to me. NOT because he's become a vegetarian,
though--it's because he has no tact, because he would use a dinner party to
make a moral demonstration, possibly making the carnivores present
uncomfortable and maybe angry too. The cook was wrong to feel like the clod's
announcement was a reflection on her cooking, if that's how she did feel. But
she was right to be angry because he ruined an evening that she had obviously
put a lot of effort and care into. It's his fault if he went home hungry that
night, for not telling the hostess ahead of time, and maybe offering to bring
something that he could eat. But he's not to be faulted for becoming a
vegetarian--just for being a jerk about it.
Catherine
LizR
> Finally, it has been my observation that at dinner parties
>when someone finds out you are vegetarian they ask why. Often when I say that
>it is for ethical, enviromental reasons, people press the issue and ask why.
rant about the horrible things they do to animals deleted.
Thank you for being the moral conscience of us all.
I hope you don't wear leather ...
My favorite is "This product was not tested on animals". No, but most of the
time it is based on years of research that *was* done on animals...
Maggie Goodrich
>
>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>alienated.
>
It sounds to me as though the individual was rude and going for impact
with his statement. He knew before the dinner took place that he had
become a vegetarian, and could have discretely called the host and
explained his dietary change. Instead he attended the event where he
must have known from past experience that "animal parts" were likely
to be part of the meal, and made his statement. Had I been the cook
and the person called me ahead of time and explained becoming vegetarian,
I would take it as a personal challenge to try and create vegetarian
meals (some of the time), that oculd be enjoyed by all. By your
description of how he presented himself, I would consider it no great
loss to lose him as a guest.
Maggie
Eric Stein
>>>Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>>>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and
>>would not eat
>>>foods prepared from animals that had been killed.
As a vegetarian, may I put in my two cents? First of all the boorish oaf in
the first writer's story was an insensitive boob. Obviously he is new at
being a vegetarian. I know from experience that if you want to eat anywhere,
wether it be a restaraunt or a dinner party, one had best make a plan in
advance. If you don't let your host know you're a veg...then you are going to
get stuck eating whatever happens to be made without meat. If you go to a
Black Angus (that's a steak-house) then you better know you're going to eat a
baked potato and salad for dinner. If I know I am going to a dinner party, I
offer in advance to bring something of my own preperation to make it easier
for the host. I f the host then insists on doing something special, it is of
their own accord. Frankly I have found that people have no concept of what a
vegetarian eats. My pet peeve is when my family used to say, "We're going out
for steak, but you can have a salad." Gee, thanks for thinking of me...as if
salad is the only thing I eat! I've since learned to be a bit more assertive
in choices of restaraunts. There is so much variety out there. I don't know
why it is such an issue, but it is certainly not a reflection of someone's
cooking skills. Finally, it has been my observation that at dinner parties
when someone finds out you are vegetarian they ask why. Often when I say that
it is for ethical, enviromental reasons, people press the issue and ask why.
I offer to tell them in private about chickens penned 20 to a cage with no
room to move, and their beaks cut off so that they don't peck each other to
death, and fed their own droppings over and over so that farmers get the most
from the grain. Pigs stacked in cages one on top of the other so that their
feces drops down onto the pig below. Cattle that are not fed for three to
four days prior to their slaughter, because it is wasted grain, as it does not
add weight to the animal, etc. etc. The atrocities go on and on in factory
farming. Like I said, I'll tell people in private...if I did it in public it
would ruin the other diner's delusionary amnesia as they bite into their beef,
foul, mutton, or pork. Ah...a living creature by any other name. Point of
this is...if you're a meat eater and you don't want to know, don't ask. If
you are a cook and you are willing to bend to a special diet for anyone else,
why should a vegetarian be any different. And for the vegetarians, announce
it well in advance of showing up at your host's door. Sorry for the rant.
Eric
Sheri McRae
Dan_Sc...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dan Schwarcz) wrote:
> In article <3on1ir$8...@alaska.nwlink.com>, Marilyn Warner
> <mar...@nwlink.com> says:
Tonight a frequent dinner guest
> >announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
> >foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
> >cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
> >is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
> >fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
> >let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
> >hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
> >alienated.
>
> I can understand being agitated if the vegetarianism was suddenly
> announced after an elaborate meal had been prepared. To not advise
> the cook of the dietary change prior to attending was extremely rude,
> given the fact that he was a frequent dinner guest, and so some of
> the food was prepared with his tastes/preferences in mind.
>
> But, other than the element of suprise, why would someone be upset
> or alienated?...
>
> Vegetarianism is a personal choice, sometimes based on religious
> or philosophical convictions, sometimes on health concerns, and
> sometimes just on taste and preference...
>
> And, as a person who rarely cooks with meat for non-vegetarian reasons
> (mostly a combination of the hassles of buying Kosher meat locally
> combined with the difficulty of eating a lowfat meat-based meal) I
> have to say that a creative and imaginative cook should have no
> trouble producing ...
>
> So, unless the guest delivered the announcement at an inapropriate time,
> or is a pushy sanctimonious boor about it, I don't see any reason for
> the cook or anyone else to get upset.
>
> Dan Schwarcz
Dan, what a terrific answer. As a vegetarian who hates for people to go
out of their way to make something different just for me it's hard to know
exactly what to say beforehand and you've helped. I'd rather the host just
prepare what he/she would normally prepare and let me eat whatever
veggies, salads, etc. are there. I really dislike a lot of fuss and focus
on my vegetarianism espcially during a meal where others are missing out
on their steak because I don't eat dead cows. I have no desire to push the
results of my decision onto others. Thanks.
Sheri
Sheri McRae she...@zeta.org.au
Jill Rachel Stuart
>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps similar
>experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not eat
>foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The primary
>cook of the household became extremely agitated and defensive. She
>is an EXCELLENT cook and has taken great pride in her skills. In
>fact, her dinners have always been the focal point of the day,
>let alone of her entertaining. How would you feel, do you think,
>hearing that decision? I confess that I, myself, feel somewhat
>alienated.
I confess that I am a little confused about the source of upset here, but
that is probably because there are so few details here about the context and
content of what happened! I am an omnivore with *many* close friends who
ore vegetarians, ranging from occasional fish-eaters to vegans; and none of
them have offended me in any way by expressing their eating preferences.
Then again, neither have they condemned me for mine; we've talked about our
respective food beliefs in some detail, and they respect my *moral* sense
about the economy of eating. What exactly is the problem here? Did the
guest accuse the cook of preparing a murderous meal or what??
Best wishes, Jill
Jill Rachel Stuart
>
>Good ideas for accommodating vegetarian guests. Thanks. What really
>struck me, though, was the emotional distress in discovering that,
> after years of sharing delicious food experiences, we are no longer to
>be on the same footing on that subject.
It was a sense that something like this was being communicated that made me
a little uneasy about the original post. Do you feel as though you are "not
on the same footing" when there are *other* differences among your set about
what is good to eat? It seems here that it's possible that at least some of
the judgments being expressed here are _against_ the now-vegetarian, as
though there were some sort of betrayal here--even though it seems clear
that some of what you were uneasy about was hir possible judgments against
the omnivores.
> I sensed a loss of
>community. The cook I mentioned felt a loss of communication,
>since preparing mutually enjoyable meals was/is one of her ways
>of expressing affection.
You see, unless the convert really *is* a proselyte or boor, I just don't
see why it's such a big deal to give the pleasure of a meal without meat. I
love lamb and even eat occasional veal (gasp) in the form of osso bucco, but
I sure get a great deal of pleasure cooking serving, and especially *eating*
the vegetarian meals I make for my friends! (-8
Whoa! Watch out! She may shift gears
>into a new mode!! (grin-gasp)
And I hope your friends isn't too embittered from this experience to be able
to stretch and learn new pleasures from it.
Thanks for accomodating such a long reply
Best wishes, Jill
MA...@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au
>Subject: Re: cook upset
>Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:46:12
>>>>Tonight a frequent dinner guest
>>>>announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and
>>>would not eat
>>>>foods prepared from animals that had been killed.
Well once my housemate who had been putting on weight annouced that she was
going on one of those diets where you rotate combinations.
YOu know, you can eat leafy green vegetables with ONE and ONLY one of the
following
meat
carbohydrates (rice potato pasta bread)
fat
fruit
dairy.
I like to cook Eastern style - you know lots of dishes with lots of things.
My heart sank - but after a while her resolve faltered. Life became a lot
easier where she just became a lacto-ovo-pescaterian. BTW she was very very
sweet about the whole thing but it all was a bit sad for a person who loves to
cook for other people. I didn't mind the vegetarian thing in the slightest
because it really doesn't cramp your style much. And I even have a friend who
(for allergy reasons) can't eat much - always brings his own and it doesn't
interfere at all - although it takes geting used to.
Margaret
Andy Pforzheimer
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950512114526.14311B@soleil>, "Lester Heitlinger, R.B.P." (heit...@acomp.usf.edu) writes:
>You received good advice about the Vegetarian guest. We had a worse
>experience. We had two guests for dinner. They come from New England. My
>darling wife prepared an excellent fish dinner. Our guest's wife tasted
>the fish and then told her husband out loud "Don't eat the fish. It isn't
>fresh!". We were flabergasted at such rudeness. We are still friends but
>they will never be invited to our house again for dinner.
>
Boy, that's amazing. I'd have come right back with, "Oh no, it's
just *yours,*" but hindsight's 20-20, as they say.
APforz
Julie Rhodes
M>Would anyone care to share their insights and perhaps
M>similar experiences to this occurance? Tonight a frequent dinner
M>guest announced that he was henceforth a vegetarian and would not
M>eat foods prepared from animals that had been killed. The
M>primary cook of the household became extremely agitated and
M>defensive. She
I don't see any reason for her to take the announcement personally
(unless perhaps he had made the announcement suddenly after tasting
one of her meat-based dishes). It's an ethical decision. Sometimes
it is a health-based decision. If he's like me, he won't make a
problem of it; I just eat anything that doesn't contain meat. I'm so
easy to cook for, my friends could just bake some potates and have a
salad handy (often on the table anyway) or cook me up a nice, yummy
big bowl of carrots.
She could consider it a challenge to her cooking abilities.
/\_/\ ___
= o_o =_______ \ \ ......jk.r...@asacomp.com (Julie Rhodes)
__^ __( \.__) )..along with Sasha and Kesa, the Blue Cats
(@)<_____>__(_____)____/.."Until there are none, adopt one." <HSUS>
The werewolf was nothing but a hamster. <Jeremy Henderson>
Pat Holland
RUDE. Whatever happened to the days when you just simply smile and don't
eat what you don't want? Anyone who complains about the food at a dinner
party or at a host's home doesn't deserve to eat anything. It's getting
more and more difficult to even PLAN a dinner party when you take all the
guests' culinary preferences into account: Jim doesn't eat meat, but will
eat fish; Jan is a vegan; Ernie doesn't like lemon; Sue hates eggplant;
then there's the low cholesterol crowd, etc., etc., etc.
Shoot, I just depressed myself...
Pat
Nancy Howells
(quoting Dan Schwarcz first)
> So, unless the guest delivered the announcement at an inapropriate time,
> or is a pushy sanctimonious boor about it, I don't see any reason for
> the cook or anyone else to get upset.
>
> Dan Schwarcz
Dan, what a terrific answer. As a vegetarian who hates for people to go
out of their way to make something different just for me it's hard to know
exactly what to say beforehand and you've helped. I'd rather the host just
prepare what he/she would normally prepare and let me eat whatever
veggies, salads, etc. are there. I really dislike a lot of fuss and focus
on my vegetarianism espcially during a meal where others are missing out
on their steak because I don't eat dead cows. I have no desire to push the
results of my decision onto others. Thanks.
Sheri, Dan, et al - most of my friends who are vegetarians are very
considerate people, and let me know their preferences well in advance
to any meal I make, which allows me to accomodate them easily.
However, I recently threw a wedding shower for a friend, and one of
the guests (who didn't RSVP, I might add) not only threw a fit that
there weren't more vegetarian choices (there were 18 guests, only one
of which was a vegetarian and I served a deli tray of meats, potato
salad, a pasta salad which conformed to vegan rules, a fruit tray and a
vegetable tray) and grilled me about what was in each and every dish -
and then proceeded to loudly complain that I was serving unhealthy
food - she, being a dietician (how *that* was announced was pretty
rude, too) would know, and I was poisoning these people.
Now, in that case, I was mortally offended. I have to wonder if that
wasn't sort of the case in the above-mentioned commentary - someone
who wasn't a vegetarian (or who hadn't RSVP'd, or whatever) was
suddenly loudly demanding special attention.
I think that the choice to be vegetarian is a choice that's cool for
some folks - I don't choose it for me, however, and I refuse to be
"chastised" in my own home (or anywhere else, for that matter) for
that choice.
So, if the guest had informed me of her desires ahead of time, I would
have gone out of my way to accomodate her, but after the table is
laid, it's a little rude to say anything. And it's even more rude to
comment on other people's choices.
(how did she annouce her profession? After looking over my apartment,
which is loaded with bookcases which carry musical scores - mostly
operatic - and musical reference books, she asked me if I sang. I
said, yes, and she said she did too. I asked her if she went to the
local conservatory, and she said "No, I chose to do something more
intelligent with my life. I'm a nutritionist." So yes, I realize I
was dealing with an intrinsically rude person here).
At any rate, my .02 worth - it could be that the person in question
wwas meaning to be rude.
--Nancy H.
Eric Stein
> I'm always struck at the anti-pleasure some like to cast on
>others. Strict vegan diets and macrobiotics are not about nutrition but
>control.
Well gee Susan, I am really interested in when YOU find time to cook....
what with interviewing *EVERY* vegetarian on this planet to come up with the
idea that not putting dead animals (that, in America, for the most part were
forced to live a tortured exsistence by factory farmers prior to their
slaughter) in my body is the equivalent of control. Where do you get off
speaking for me? You single out vegan diets and macrobiotics as diets that
are supposedly about control....do you also presume to speak for religions
that have dietary restrictions? I mean there are buddhist sects that don't
eat meat, and frankly, kosher meal planning rules are stricter than
vegetarians. For that matter I sure hope you weren't catholic in the 50's
because you couldn't eat meat on Fridays!
>And why do the vegans especially, always look so wan?
Again Susan, I'm sure that you found the time to get every vegan in the world
to send you their picture, so you could make that observation.
>As for claims that vegetarianism is healthful, I know plenty of fat
vegetarians.
Susan, Susan......sure, you can eat lots of fried foods or fatty cheeses and
still be a vegetarian and be overweight, which granted is not very
healthful......but I can bet that you can find a lot more obese meat eaters.
Sounds like you've got a bit of a dietary hang-up yourself.
Peace ( I can feel the flames already!)
Eric
Andy Pforzheimer
>(how did she annouce her profession? After looking over my apartment,
>which is loaded with bookcases which carry musical scores - mostly
>operatic - and musical reference books, she asked me if I sang. I
>said, yes, and she said she did too. I asked her if she went to the
>local conservatory, and she said "No, I chose to do something more
>intelligent with my life. I'm a nutritionist." So yes, I realize I
>was dealing with an intrinsically rude person here).
>
>At any rate, my .02 worth - it could be that the person in question
>wwas meaning to be rude.
>
I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
>--Nancy H.
>
Erin McKean
>I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
>have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
>
>>--Nancy H.
>>
>
of a friend of ours (now ex-girlfriend) once used our
bathroom at our apartment during a party and came out,
announced to everyone how much she now weighed (she used the
scale) and asked me if my over-the-counter face cream
(which was on a shelf in the bathroom) really worked!
My husband and I laughed about it for days.
(oh, this was the same party ((at which we had
plenty of soda, beer, wine, etc.) that she
brought her on 16 oz Diet Pepsi to.)
I'd like to hear more "horrible guest" stories
too!
Erin McKean
Greg Zywicki
I concur with the sentiment. I was a picky eater as a child, and I
am recovering more and more everyday. I'm amazed at other adults
who haven't learned how to eat socially. If you're allergic or
opposed to it or it otherwise will cause you great discomfort, don't
eat it. If it's not something you like verymuch, choke it down with
a smile. Someone is giving you food - it is a gift. There's a reason
why people used to say "starving children would love that" - it means
"Be grateful for what's offered to you, and gracious in accepting it."
Greg Z
Julie Rhodes
L>rant about the horrible things they do to animals deleted.
L>
L>Thank you for being the moral conscience of us all.
L>I hope you don't wear leather ...
Sorry you couldn't respect his personal decision and his reasons. I'm
sure that, like me, he avoids using leather and other animal products
as much as possible. No doubt you think it is impossible, but then,
you probably don't try.
L>My favorite is "This product was not tested on animals". No, but
L>most of the time it is based on years of research that *was* done
L>on animals...
So you are saying we can go back in time and do something about that?
Or that since we abused animals in research before, we shouldn't try
not to do so now? Maybe you think we should also go back to slavery,
since we used to do *that* as well?
/\_/\ ___
= o_o =_______ \ \ ......jk.r...@asacomp.com (Julie Rhodes)
__^ __( \.__) )..along with Sasha and Kesa, the Blue Cats
(@)<_____>__(_____)____/.."Until there are none, adopt one." <HSUS>
...<*> * Please report immediately to the Ministry of Clues.
Bonnie Montjar
|> In <3ormm7$i...@alaska.nwlink.com> Marilyn Warner <mar...@nwlink.com> writes:
|>
|> >
|> >Good ideas for accommodating vegetarian guests. Thanks. What really
|> >struck me, though, was the emotional distress in discovering that,
|> > after years of sharing delicious food experiences, we are no longer to
|> >be on the same footing on that subject.
|>
I sensed, from the original post that the feeling of not being on the same
footing stemmed from the manner in which the new vegetarian communicated
his preferences. To arrive after the food was prepared and "announce" it
in such a way (e.g. "animals...killed"), was, IMO, pretty boorish. Better
to have eaten what was possible and quietly spoken to the cook afterwards
about future invitations.
|>
|> > I sensed a loss of
|> >community. The cook I mentioned felt a loss of communication,
|> >since preparing mutually enjoyable meals was/is one of her ways
|> >of expressing affection.
|>
|> You see, unless the convert really *is* a proselyte or boor, I just don't
|> see why it's such a big deal to give the pleasure of a meal without meat.
|>
I think that the cook, perhaps, felt that hir hospitality was being
thrown back in hir face. Again, I get the impression that it was the
MANNER in which it was done, rather than the fact that this person had
gone to a vegetarian lifestyle. If the cook had been told in another
manner, he/she might very well have seen it as a creative challenge. It
still might be possible to do that, if the "convert" is cares enough about
the relationship with the cook to remedy the situation. Courtesy and
consideration are never out of place, especially among friends.
(Am I giving away my age, by saying stuff like that? I sound like my
mother.)
Good luck - I hope you can recover that feeling of community within your
group. It's priceless.
--
Bonnie Montjar
ANALOG ADDRESS:
The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility (CEBAF)
MS 85A
12000 Jefferson Avenue
Newport News, VA 23606
(804) 249-7059
E-MAIL ADDRESS:
mon...@cebaf.gov
...This earth is not willed to you by your parents. It is lent to you by
your children.
Monika Weikel
>
>I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
>have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
>
Once, I was cooking for my boyfriend's family. My boyfriend was bragging about
my specialty and they all wanted to try it. I prepared the salad and the first
batch and brought it out to the table. I then finished the second batch and
brought it to the table, only to discover that the salad and main course had
been devoured in the five minutes I was in the kitchen, and that the family was
watching television in the livingroom. I ate the second batch by myself, at an
empty table, surrounded by dirty plates they expected me to wash.
Monika Weikel
Here is some background: I once told my boyfriend's family that I hate the
taste of cilantro. Cooked, it is okay, but raw it tastes like mud. I think
it is a genetic litmus-type trait, because my aunt agrees. His family, who
fancy themselves cultured, were convinced this was a major personality flaw on
my part and his mother tried to cure me by cooking with it more often. Like
I said, cooked, it is okay, so I humored her, but when she parpared it raw,
such as in salsa, I wouldn't touch it.
Once when I was at her house, she was cooking dinner, and I was preparing
salad. When I had finished, she came to me with a handful of fresh cilantro
and asked me to add it to the salad. I was especially proud of the salad and
told her I would add the cilantro after I had seperated my portion. She agreed,
and I measure some out into a smaller bowl and added the foul tasting weed to
the larger one.
When I brought the salad to the table, my boyfriend started gushing on and on
about what a wonderful salad it was, how attractive it was, etc... His mother
and sister scowled at me because he hadn't mentioned their dishes at all.
After we were all seated, he scooped a large portion of salad onto his plate
and put dressing on it and placed a large fork-full into his mouth. He
promptly spat it out. "You didn't wash the lettuce!" he shouted "this is
filled with dirt!"
His mother and sister tried to hide their smiles. "I... thought I did," I
stammered, humiliated.
"Well something in it tastes awful!" He pulled a spiky cilantro leaf out of
his mouth. "this is it! What the hell is this s#^t ?!"
His mother and sister were too flabbergasted to answer. As for me, I was
laughing too hard. I couldn't stop.
The rest of the evening was a disaster, but I childishly think that one
moment was worth it. I know you saw it coming, but I didn't.
Jennifer
>
>>
>>I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
>>have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
>>
When my now husband, Kevin, and I graduated from University we did the "Tour Europe
on a budget" thing for 6 weeks, since the majority of my family lives in Malta
it was kind of required that we 'stop by' (like it is just around the corner from
northern europe), so for the last week of our trip we headed down to Malta.
We stayed with my aunt by marriage who 'owns' a small guest house. She
is a wonderful, relaxed and very kind person, her estranged husband, my uncle
unfortunately is a creep.
We just had to go out and spend the day at his house, he lives on another island
which is quite beautiful. So My aunt, her eldest son, and us all treck over to
his house. When we arrive all the doors and shutters are closed ( 35 degrees C and
perfectly beautiful out) and he refuses to answer the front door because he
is paranoid some one is going to come looking for him to pay parking tickets
so we have to "sneak" in the side door. As soon as we get in we are given
the order "not to touch anything" and he starts to give orders to his "wife" on
cooking us lunch. (Very nice (sic) I always invite people over and then
order them to cook!). He proceeds to freakout on his son who opens a
door to get some light in and show us the garden. My Uncle (ugh, I hate to
admit that) gives us the tour of the house, while complaining that all he got
when my granparents died was the dining room set (which is a georgeous
antique), showing us his "lab" (he does some electronics work, and makes
alumium sided travel cases) and warning us again not to touch anything
because he doesn't want us to "screw" anything. After the tour an a number
of attempts to show me how much more intelligent he is than a lowly woman
who would know nothing about anything remotely technical (please note that
both Kevin and I are engineers, and have some techhie background!) we get
to sit down to the dinner that "he" made especially for us. Kevin goes to
move a box off a chair so that he can sit down and gets Yelled at for touching
my uncles *Stuff*. While all this is happening he is randomly insulting the
intellegence of my Aunt.
After dinner we say that we are off to see the rest of the island and go for a swim,
he refuses to come with us because don't want to go to the nudist beach
with him (what a repusive idea!!!!!!) and we would perfer to see something of
the Island than sit inside in the dark!
The "Uncle in Question" showed up in Canada in February so I had to play a
real game of hide and seek so as not to inflict his presence on myself or Kevin
again.
What a Miserable experience, really goes to show how unfortunate it is that you
cannot pick your relatives.
Jen
na8540700-Gentry
guests thread.
It's kinda gross, but I'm still amazed that someone could do this. By the
way, I do NOT know who the guilty party is and this happened 3 years ago!
Here goes:
My hall bathroom toilet has never flushed correctly. 99% of the time, it
"swirls" when you flush it and kind of goes down, but never really flushes
all the way (with the "whoosh") without the help of the plunger. Anyway,
I had 3 people over. 1 woman was a childhood friend that I hadn't seen
for about 15 years and she flew in for my wedding and came back for a second
visit. She was staying with me and my husband as our houseguest and this
bathroom was "her bathroom". We were kids when I last saw her,
so I didn't know what she was like before her visit. Turns out, she was "odd". The other couple were boyfriend/girlfriend and I didn't know the girlfriend that
well at all. Anyway
we were at my house for awhile. I think at some point, we all used the
bathroom. When the couple left, I went to the bathroom and immediately
noticed the (brand new) bath towels were no longer on the towel bar (which
is opposite the toilet). I looked in the bathtub, and there they lay,
completely soaked with the curtain drawn. I suspect that the toilet overflowed
and they used my bathtowels to mop up and then HID THE TOWELS!! LIKE I WOULDN'T HAVE
NOTICED!! I came out of the bathroom and told my husband and
my friend (the houseguest). The houseguest indicated shock at something
so rude. After she left, we called the boyfriend and told him. He said
that his girlfriend wouldn't do that (he said she would have said
something.). Anyway, both women acted innocent. The boyfriend brought it
up with his girlfriend in private and she said it wasn't her. It wasn't the
boyfriend, since he is a good friend and would say something.
Very strange. And we don't have a butler, so he couldn't do it.
---
---, ---,
/- / _ _ ,_ _/_ ,_
(___/ o (__/_(/_) )_/__ (_(_)
_/
Kemp Anderson
Thankfully, I've never experienced any of these socially challenged
indivduals when entertaining. My heart goes out to those who have.
"Difficult" guests with special dietry needs are unavoidable but
*rude* guests are unforgivable.
To those hosts whose guests include picky individuals that find your
hospitality insulting despite your best efforts, I would recommend
the following course of action. Open your wallet/purse, present
them with a suitable amount along with directions to a nearby
McDonalds/KFC/Veggies-R-Us and asking them politely to leave in order
that the more civilised members of the party might enjoy themselves.
Either that or give them a good slap on the face (but I'm just a
liberal).
Guaranteed to do wonders for the blood pressure and will probably be
very entertaining for the other guests.
--
Kemp Anderson
Glasgow College of Food Technology
Email: ke...@gcft.demon.co.uk
[my own opinion]
_____________________________________________________________________
Future (n.) - A time when our affairs will prosper, our lives will be
fulfilled and all will be rosey in the garden. Usually the day after
tomorrow.
______________________________________________________________________
Nancy Moser
their bathroom by overflowing the toilet. Maybe there were "particles" they
didn't want you to see. Maybe they just didn't know what to do! It is quite
an awkward situation. What would you do? Maybe we should all have an
instruction page in our bathrooms, so guests will know what they should do in
case of such an embarrassing emergency.
Stephanie da Silva
na8540700-Gentry <b...@ih.att.com> wrote:
>When the couple left, I went to the bathroom and immediately
>noticed the (brand new) bath towels were no longer on the towel bar (which
>is opposite the toilet). I looked in the bathtub, and there they lay,
>completely soaked with the curtain drawn. I suspect that the toilet overflowed
>and they used my bathtowels to mop up and then HID THE TOWELS!! LIKE I
>WOULDN'T HAVE NOTICED!!
Would you have rather they left pee-contaminated toilet water on the floor?
I'm amazed, I think you should have apologized for having bad plumbing
and putting your guests in such an embarrassing position. The fact that
you went out and accused them of overflowing the toilet is incredible.
Sue M. Ford
>My hall bathroom toilet has never flushed correctly.
>99% of the time, it "swirls" when you flush it and
>kind of goes down, but never really flushes all the way
>(with the "whoosh") without the help of the plunger.
>Anyway, I had 3 people over.
<SNIP>
> I looked in the
>bathtub, and there they lay, completely soaked with
>the curtain drawn. I suspect that the toilet
>overflowed and they used my bathtowels to mop up and
>then HID THE TOWELS!! LIKE I WOULDN'T HAVE NOTICED!!
>I came out of the bathroom and told my husband and my
>friend (the houseguest). The houseguest indicated
>shock at something so rude. After she left, we called
>the boyfriend and told him. He said that his
>girlfriend wouldn't do that (he said she would have
>said something.). Anyway, both women acted innocent.
>The boyfriend brought it up with his girlfriend in
>private and she said it wasn't her. It wasn't the
>boyfriend, since he is a good friend and would say
>something.
-------------------------------------------
Whoever did it was in a pretty embarassing situation, and
they had to think quickly. Considering that you knew about the
situation ahead of time and didn't leave a mop conspicuously
available, you left them no other choice. AND THEN TO
INTEROGATE YOUR GUESTS for something that wasn't their fault
and was so minor..... for heaven's sake the towels weren't
ruined. What's the big deal? Just throw 'em in the washer
with hot water and bleach (all-fabric if they're colored).
Sue
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.
Ninette R Enrique
> In article <pjh2-150...@holland1.cit.cornell.edu> pj...@cornell.edu (Pat Holland) writes:
>
> I think what's lost in this whole thread is that people (guests) have been
> RUDE. Whatever happened to the days when you just simply smile and don't
> eat what you don't want? Anyone who complains about the food at a dinner
> party or at a host's home doesn't deserve to eat anything. It's getting
> more and more difficult to even PLAN a dinner party when you take all the
> guests' culinary preferences into account: Jim doesn't eat meat, but will
> eat fish; Jan is a vegan; Ernie doesn't like lemon; Sue hates eggplant;
> then there's the low cholesterol crowd, etc., etc., etc.
>
> Shoot, I just depressed myself...
I agree with you. It's become harder and harder to have a dinner party
these days. Sure I do take it as a challenge b/c I want my guests to be
happy. So I serve dishes that everyone can enjoy like fajitas, or pizza
with bring-your-own toppings. Next week I am going to a potluck so I
will bring foccaccia with a bunch of different toppings (feta cheese, sun
dried tomatoes, olive, pepperoni, etc.) so people can choose.
Sometimes I get tired though, especially when it does seem like the
guests expect you to really go out of your way, instead of being thankful
that you did.
Ninette
Ninette R Enrique
Adding to this bathroom tale, I have a kind of a non-food story but I
have to tell it. I can't remember who it was, a friend of a friend kind
of thing, but this girl was going out with this super rich guy from Long
Island. The first time she went to went to this guy's mother's mansion,
she was really nervous and had to go to the bathroom really badly.
Trying to be on her best "rich people" kind of behavior, she asked the
mother where the "powder room" was. The mother directed her and sure
enough, she got into the room and it was a powder room! Too embarrassed
to go back out and ask where the bathroom was, she kind of got up on the
sink to go. Well, the sink disattached from the wall!
The second time she went, now really really nervous, she sat on the
woman's small dog and killed it.
Needless to say, she didn't get to go back there again.
Ninette
John David Auwen
>> more and more difficult to even PLAN a dinner party when you take all the
>> guests' culinary preferences into account: Jim doesn't eat meat, but will
>> eat fish; Jan is a vegan; Ernie doesn't like lemon; Sue hates eggplant;
>> then there's the low cholesterol crowd, etc., etc., etc.
>>
When we have someone over for dinner the first time I like to ask, "Is there
any food or spices which you can't stand to eat? I'd like to make sure we
don't have something that you won't enjoy."
I once made one of my specialties, grilled cajun jumbo shrimp, as
an appetizer only to find that our guest could not eat spicy food. I was
glad that I found this out early because the main entree was going to be
blackened steak (this was when I was really into Paul Prudhomme stuff). I
cooked his steak without the extra blackening stuff and he enjoyed it. I wish
I had grilled a few "plain" shrimp for him as well...
Another couple told me that they hated all fried foods, especially chicken
fried steak. I was glad to find this out because I had planned to make
chicken fried steak. We had potroast instead and they loved it.
I also think that you should experiment on yourself or on those who are very
close to you before exposing guests to your culinary adventures. It's
rude, IMHO, to use them as guinea pigs unless you're very sure that it will
turn out well. Don't put your guests in the position of having to listen
to your excuses as to why you're serving them a barely edible mess...
Dave
au...@convex.com
Jeanne Hinds
Several years ago I was quite pregnant with my second child and was
subsequently huge from combined baby and water retention. I was
hosting a going away barbeque at our home for my brother and
sister-in-law who were moving across the country. My mother's best
friend followed me all over the backyard and into my house the entire
party peering over my shoulder at what I was eating and making loud
comments like, "You shouldn't be eating that! You'll get fat!" At
one point she even removed a devilled egg from my plate, making a huge
fuss in the process. All of this in full view of other family members
and guests. I was nearly ready to strangle her and she has never been
back in my house in eight years.
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Jeanne Hinds | Founder, President, & Chief |
| j...@anser.pdial.interpath.net | Lobbyist of the Society for the |
| | Prevention of Cruelty to Guests |
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Ceon Ramon
Ninette R Enrique <nr...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>
>Adding to this bathroom tale, I have a kind of a non-food story but I
>have to tell it. I can't remember who it was, a friend of a friend kind
>of thing, but this girl was going out with this super rich guy from Long
>Island. The first time she went to went to this guy's mother's mansion,
>she was really nervous and had to go to the bathroom really badly.
>Trying to be on her best "rich people" kind of behavior, she asked the
>mother where the "powder room" was. The mother directed her and sure
>enough, she got into the room and it was a powder room! Too embarrassed
>to go back out and ask where the bathroom was, she kind of got up on the
>sink to go. Well, the sink disattached from the wall!
Ah, this has possibilities. Perhaps we could sell it to Carol Burnett.
First she asks for the powder room, and gets a powder room.
She comes back out and asks for the restroom. She is directed to a small
room with a chaise lounge in it.
She comes back again and asks for the bathroom. This time she finds
herself in a room with a large claw-footed tub and a nice stack of fluffy
towels.
She returns to the group and bellows, "WHERE IS THE GODDAMN TOILET!"
>The second time she went, now really really nervous, she sat on the
>woman's small dog and killed it.
Oh my god
>Needless to say, she didn't get to go back there again.
I'm surprised she went back a second time.
--Barbara
Michael Kankiewicz
Here's a common one. When planning to bring food for an informal gathering,
people drive me nuts who say they pefer one thing, then when the food is
put in front of them, they ignore it and eat up what the other person expected
to eat.
An example: I do not like greasy pepperoni pizza. When several people are
getting pizza delivered, and they all want pepperoni, I ask to get a small
section of mushrooms, or green peppers, or black olives - whatever.
When the pizza arrives, there's always one clown who ends up devouring my
non-pepperoni portion.
One time we were planning a small bon voyage party at work. Finger foods,
drinks, etc. Everyone was asked if they preferred wine or beer. Everyone
except myself and one woman said they preferred wine. So the woman and I
bought one double size gourmet beer to split. At the beginning of the party
the woman approached me holding her glass of beer. She said, "This beer is
really great - Go get yours." I walked over and was horrified to see another
guy - who had said he wanted wine - slurping down my portion of the beer.
MK
Sue M. Ford
>When we have someone over for dinner the first time I
>like to ask, "Is there any food or spices which you
>can't stand to eat? I'd like to make sure we don't
>have something that you won't enjoy."
Even that doesn't work sometimes. I once invited a couple
over with their little girl and asked ahead of time if they (or
the baby, about 4-5 yr old) had any dislikes or allergies. "Oh
no..... Little Heidi will eat anything!". "Are you sure?"
"Of course. She has a wonderful appetite." I made turkey
tetrazzini. The kid didn't want any. "We forgot that she
doesn't like spaghetti."
Sue M. Ford
>Of course one person showed up unexpectedly,
>complaining loudly that there was nothing for her to
>eat because she was a vegetarian. It still annoys me,
>first because she hadn't TOLD anyone she was, and
>second because it was patently false. --
It's interesting in many of these stories how many people show
up for dinner uninvited!
Thomas Fenske
> I think it's kind of embarrassing to tell your host that you've messed up
> their bathroom by overflowing the toilet. Maybe there were "particles" they
> didn't want you to see. Maybe they just didn't know what to do! It is quite
> an awkward situation. What would you do? Maybe we should all have an
> instruction page in our bathrooms, so guests will know what they should do in
> case of such an embarrassing emergency.
Hey, I like it! What a great idea ... a Bathroom FAQ !!!!!
;-)
Thomas Fenske
Meredith Tanner
Sheri McRae <she...@zeta.org.au> wrote:
>
>Dan, what a terrific answer. As a vegetarian who hates for people to go
>out of their way to make something different just for me it's hard to know
>exactly what to say beforehand and you've helped. I'd rather the host just
>prepare what he/she would normally prepare and let me eat whatever
>veggies, salads, etc. are there. I really dislike a lot of fuss and focus
>on my vegetarianism espcially during a meal where others are missing out
>on their steak because I don't eat dead cows. I have no desire to push the
>results of my decision onto others. Thanks.
i think that some omnivores feel alienated and/or uncomfortable
with vegetarians because they've encountered some who were
offensively evangelistic. i've gone out of my way to choose a
restaurant where everyone could find something to his taste,
only to have a veggie companion preach throughout the meal on
the evils of meat. i've even had a friend mention to me that
after some meat-eating friends visited and used his bathroom,
he was reminded of how much more unpleasant his bowel movements
were back when he still ate meat. he went into great detail.
i was absolutely appalled.
on the other hand, most vegetarians i know are perfectly capable
of behaving like adults, and this kind of behavior would be rude
and offensive coming from anyone. i may or may not understand or
agree with you, but i will respect your lifestyle choices if you
respect mine. if someone is so horrified by the idea of eating
meat that he's sent into a mouth-foaming frenzy, he should avoid
situations in which he will be forced to endure the presence of
pork chops.
i cook veggie about half the time now, but i can remember back
when i thought vegetarians lived on salad and tofu. if you don't
know any vegetarians, and you're someone who takes pride in his
cooking, and a close friend for whom you often cook announces
she's become a vegetarian, you might well be taken aback and
possibly upset at the prospect of serving something to her that
you personally find unappealing. if your friend also implies
that you're an amoral murdering beast, you'd probably be pretty
offended. all in all, i don't find the reaction that was
originally described particularly hard to understand.
at any rate, there's a polenta casserole with corn, tomatoes, and
basil in the _Fields_Of_Greens_ cookbook that's a particularly good
choice for vegetarians who want to show their meat-eating friends
that vegetarian food doesn't have to be as unpleasant as falafel.
there's nothing "weird" in it, it doesn't make a pretense at
simulating meat, and it's one of the best things i've ever eaten.
now, if you'll excuse me, i believe i said "pork chop" up there,
and i'm going to have to go find one in the freezer immediately.
m
--
"Oh, there has been much throwing around of brains." -- Wm. Shakespeare
Meredith Tanner
>
>I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
>have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
oh, boy.
well, some friends of mine wanted to throw a party for the
16th birthday of a mutual friend. (we were all somewhat
older; "S." was the younger sister of an older friend who
had moved away.) their apartment was too small, so they
asked my roommate and me if we could host the party. we
agreed. (never again!)
on the day of the party, my roommate's girlfriend called with
an emergency and he went off to help her. shortly after he
left, i started to feel a little bit ill. by the time the
first guests began to arrive, i had a fever of 102 and felt
like i was going to die. as soon as the hosts got there, i
told them how sick i was and that i was going to go lie down,
and that i'd be in my room if there was an emergency.
about an hour later, when i was virtually comatose, they
knocked on my bedroom door, announced that the party "wasn't
going the way they'd planned," and that they were going to
leave. i wasn't entirely lucid at that point, so i decided
that the rest of the guests could probably be counted on to
behave.
an hour after that, another friend knocked on the door and
asked if she could use my bed because she wanted to sleep with
someone she'd met at the party. she seemed quite offended by
my assertion that i was too sick to get up.
another hour later, my roommate came back. i heard shouting
and other assorted noises and then my roommate knocked and
came in to tell me what had happened while i'd been semi-
conscious.
apparently one of our "friends" had taken "S." into my roommate's
bedroom and gotten her drunk (i'd been told there would be no
alcohol at the party). at that point most of the party had
moved in there, and an unknown number of the males present had
had sex with "S." at some point she had become violently sick
and vomited all over my roommate's bedroom before she passed out.
the party continued unabated.
some time later some total strangers had heard the noise from the
party and had invited themselves in, and my roommate had discovered
them wandering around the apartment peering suspiciously at his
expensive keyboard setup. fortunately, nothing was missing.
my roommate threw everybody out, and the last i heard of the
guy who got "S." drunk, he had been convicted of kidnapping his
girlfriend because she tried to leave him. "S." has no memory
of the party, which is probably for the best.
fortunately, i live 3000 miles from those "friends" now.
Susan Hattie Steinsapir
: My hall bathroom toilet has never flushed correctly. 99% of the time, it
: "swirls" when you flush it and kind of goes down, but never really flushes
: all the way (with the "whoosh") without the help of the plunger. Anyway,
: for about 15 years and she flew in for my wedding and came back for a second
: visit. She was staying with me and my husband as our houseguest and this
: bathroom was "her bathroom". We were kids when I last saw her,
: so I didn't know what she was like before her visit. Turns out, she was "odd". The other couple were boyfriend/girlfriend and I didn't know the girlfriend that
: well at all. Anyway
: we were at my house for awhile. I think at some point, we all used the
: noticed the (brand new) bath towels were no longer on the towel bar (which
: completely soaked with the curtain drawn. I suspect that the toilet overflowed
: and they used my bathtowels to mop up and then HID THE TOWELS!! LIKE I WOULDN'T HAVE
: NOTICED!! I came out of the bathroom and told my husband and
: my friend (the houseguest). The houseguest indicated shock at something
: so rude. After she left, we called the boyfriend and told him. He said
: that his girlfriend wouldn't do that (he said she would have said
: something.). Anyway, both women acted innocent. The boyfriend brought it
: up with his girlfriend in private and she said it wasn't her. It wasn't the
: boyfriend, since he is a good friend and would say something.
Gee, if you know you have a funky toilet, why not put up a little
sign when you have company instructing them in what to do. It sounds like
someone ran into problems and did the best they could to mop up. Then,
they were too embarrassed to say anything. If I had been your houseguest
and seen you come out of the bathroom being upset about wet towels, I
wouldn't have said a peep either. That's not odd on her part. You can
wash the towels after all. I probably would have taken my hostess aside
and explained what I did. I would be horrified if she got angry with me
because I used the towels.
As for me, we invited a friend over tonight to share a Zelda's
pizza (pizza of the gods). I started dozing off. My husband fell
asleep. I think our guest fell asleep. I felt like such a rude host.
We all decided this must be middle age. Hey, it's Friday; let's eat a
pizza and fall down! Whatever happened to partying out on Fridays?
As for our toilet, it's older. It flushes well but the seat is
coming off. I haven't had hordes in the house for awhile, but the last
time I did, I think I posted a sign, "Be gentle with me, I'm an older
toilet. If I don't stop draining, jiggle my handle. Watch my seat, it's
a bit wobbly. Thank you."
--
Yours,
Susan
_____________________________________________________________________________
Susan Hattie Steinsapir hat...@netcom.com Sacramento, California
Disclaimer: Any opinions are mine and not those of my employers.
Bruce Hietbrink
Auwen) wrote:
> I once made one of my specialties, grilled cajun jumbo shrimp, as
> an appetizer only to find that our guest could not eat spicy food.
One time I had a couple of friends over for a Thai vegetable curry.
I know the husband will eat things as hot or hotter than I like them,
and the wife had just been in the Peace Corps in the Ivory Coast (or
near there). Silly me, I assumed that she was used to hot foods.
Oops. After the first bite she was suddenly chugging down the pitcher
of juice and turning red. I felt really bad. Then another time
my then girlfriend ate the serrano that was supposed to be the
garnish and about had a heart attack (no, that's not why we're no
longer together :) ). Since then I've gotten a lot more
careful.
Bruce Hietbrink
Anne Bourget
: Okay, this has nothing to do with cooking, but it does with the rude
: guests thread.
: It's kinda gross, but I'm still amazed that someone could do this. By the
: way, I do NOT know who the guilty party is and this happened 3 years ago!
: Here goes:
: My hall bathroom toilet has never flushed correctly. 99% of the time, it
: "swirls" when you flush it and kind of goes down, but never really flushes
: all the way (with the "whoosh") without the help of the plunger. Anyway,
: I had 3 people over. 1 woman was a childhood friend that I hadn't seen
: for about 15 years and she flew in for my wedding and came back for a second
: visit. She was staying with me and my husband as our houseguest and this
: bathroom was "her bathroom". We were kids when I last saw her,
: so I didn't know what she was like before her visit. Turns out, she was "odd". The other couple were boyfriend/girlfriend and I didn't know the girlfriend that
: well at all. Anyway
: we were at my house for awhile. I think at some point, we all used the
: bathroom. When the couple left, I went to the bathroom and immediately
: noticed the (brand new) bath towels were no longer on the towel bar (which
: is opposite the toilet). I looked in the bathtub, and there they lay,
: completely soaked with the curtain drawn. I suspect that the toilet overflowed
: and they used my bathtowels to mop up and then HID THE TOWELS!! LIKE I WOULDN'T HAVE
: NOTICED!! I came out of the bathroom and told my husband and
: my friend (the houseguest). The houseguest indicated shock at something
: so rude. After she left, we called the boyfriend and told him. He said
: that his girlfriend wouldn't do that (he said she would have said
: something.). Anyway, both women acted innocent. The boyfriend brought it
: up with his girlfriend in private and she said it wasn't her. It wasn't the
: boyfriend, since he is a good friend and would say something.
: Very strange. And we don't have a butler, so he couldn't do it.
Anne responds:
No! This cannot be a real story. The person who should be embarrassed is
the teller of the tale. If you have a malfunctioning toilet (as I also
have), you should warn your guests. Any results from the malfunction
should be expected and dealt with without causing embarrassment to guests.
While your guests acted responsibly by wiping up the water, the fact that
only new towels were available to them is not their fault. Also, not
mentioning the matter to the hostess was poor judgment, it is also
somewhat understandable. As you said, all the parties involved didn't
know each other very well and were probably far too ashamed to deal with
the matter in a more pleasant (wrong word to be sure) manner.
"Oh, by the way, your toilet seems to be broken and was overflowing. I am
sorry, but I used your towels to collect the water as nothing else was
available. I set the towels in the bathtub so as not to damage the floor."
"I am so sorry. Yes, we have had problems with that toilet for years. I
should have warned you about its tendancy to overflow."
But to call and confront your guests as if you were Captain Friday in
Dragnet is outrageous. I still can't believe that this story is true.
Anne
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Anne Bourget bou...@netcom.com
Anne Bourget
I was once visiting an old childhood friend, whom I hadn't seen in over
15 years. As children we had been close, but now as grown adults we had
little in common except for our childhood experiences. She and her
husband were very strange people, and I was looking forward to the end of
the evening.
I excused myself from the dinner table to use her bathroom. Upon
flushing the toilet I discovered that it was very temperamental. Having a
similar toilet at home I dealt with the problem. However, it seems that a
previous occupant had dealt with the resulting overflow problem by wiping
up the water with the bath towels, as the evidence was laying in the
bathtub.
After returning to the dinner table I, of course, mentioned nothing
about the incident. However, the next day I received a telephone call
from the hostess inquiring in a most hostile tone, if I had used her brand
new bath towels to wipe up the bathroom accident. I explained that I had
not, but that I had had problems with her toilet and she might want to
have it repaired. She indicated that she didn't believe that I hadn't been
the culprit. I couldn't believe it!
Beware of reunions with old childhood chums.
I'M KIDDING. JUST KIDDING. BUT IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED TO SOMEONE.
Anne Bourget
: As for me, we invited a friend over tonight to share a Zelda's
: pizza (pizza of the gods). I started dozing off. My husband fell
: asleep. I think our guest fell asleep. I felt like such a rude host.
: We all decided this must be middle age. Hey, it's Friday; let's eat a
: pizza and fall down! Whatever happened to partying out on Fridays?
Yes, it was I. The sleepy pizza eating guest. I was totally wiped after a
wild and crazy week at work. But, I must say, I never fell asleep --I
dozed very daintily for a couple of minutes maybe. No one was rude. We
were three very tired middle aged adults who knew each other very well.
Susan, you can come over to my house and nap any time. ;-)
BTW, it was Susan who tipped me off about this thread. I still can't
believe what I have been reading. Falling asleep after eating pizza is
pretty pale I must say.
Claudia Breves
: au...@convex.com (John David Auwen) wrote:
: >When we have someone over for dinner the first time I
: >like to ask, "Is there any food or spices which you
: >can't stand to eat? I'd like to make sure we don't
: >have something that you won't enjoy."
: Even that doesn't work sometimes. I once invited a couple
I agree. My parents made a big brunch for out of town relatives. My mom
spoke to each one of the guests several times before they came into the
city to discuss their plans, and each phone call included information
regarding the brunch menu. (Bagels, nova, whitefish salad, chubs, cream
cheese, quiches, etc.)
When all the cousins were assembled at the table and my mother started
bringing out platters of scrumptious food, they all started remarking how
they didn't eat smoked fish, or never had nova, or had it once and didn't
like it, etc. My mother was pretty distressed and mentioned "But I told
you what I was planning". And the general consensus of the cousins was
"Oh, but we didn't want you to go to any additional trouble, so we didn't
mention it before".
Yeah. Much better to mention it after the food is bought and served. My
poor mother still has nightmares about it. Table full of guests and
nothing to serve. (Actually, those of the cousins who ate eggs, yes
there were one or two who didn't eat eggs either, managed to fill up on
quiche and salads and fruit. And my mother ended up tossing all sorts of
other things on the table to make up for it) ALOT of extra work.
Claudia
cbr...@amanda.dorsai.org
John David Auwen
>"Of course. She has a wonderful appetite." I made turkey
>tetrazzini. The kid didn't want any. "We forgot that she
>doesn't like spaghetti."
I can definitely sympathize. Personally, I put my blinders on and try to
ignore the eating habits of other people's kids. If I tried to plan my
meals around the likes and dislikes of most of them we would only have
hamburgers and pizza.
Recently we had one of my son's friends spend the night. We had mesquite
grilled ribeyes, corn on the cob, steamed broccoli with cheese sauce, and
dinner rolls. The kid ate half of his (small but good) steak, took a couple of
bites of the corn, didn't touch the broccoli, and ate about 4 dinner rolls
with butter. Then he asked what we were having for dessert! (Of course
my kids cleaned their plates and I was diplomatic with our guest.)
I asked him what his family liked to eat and he said they don't cook at home
except on holidays. Normally they order pizza or go out for hamburgers/fried
chicken/taco bell/etc...
Dave
au...@convex.com
Marcia
I thought I was the only one who had run into this! I love to cook, but I
very rarely entertain exactly because of this. Between coordinating schedules
(people seem to think that an invitation can be transferred, rather than just
accepted or declined) and food allergies/dietary restrictions/preferences,
it's just not worth the trouble. Which is a bummer, because I'd love to have
people over for dinner more often.
I have some rather severe food allergies myself, so I know that there are
some times when you Just Can't Eat What's Served. A polite guest doesn't
call attention to the fact that you're not eating it, and a polite host
doesn't notice you didn't eat it.
ObRudeGuest story: I hosted an evening of a women's group, and served a
glazed roast turkey breast with vegetables and rice as a way of hitting the
lowest common denominator among the folks who I knew were coming. Of course
one person showed up unexpectedly, complaining loudly that there was nothing
for her to eat because she was a vegetarian. It still annoys me, first because
she hadn't TOLD anyone she was, and second because it was patently false.
--
Marcia Bednarcyk. ADDRESSES: mar...@netcom.com
Don't tell me not to burn my candle at both ends - m...@cisco.com
just tell me where to get more wax!
I do not do business with any entity who advertises in non-commercial groups.
JOAN A.M. STARKOVICH
Soon after I got married, anxious to please my new in-laws, my husband
and I invited his parents and grandparents (the parents are great; the
grandparents are evil) to dinner (they live about two hours away). I
spent days picking out a menu and far too much money in the supermarket
for ingredients and started cooking. The night before, with the house
spotless, the table set in preparation, I get a phone call from my
father-in-law. Apparently the grandparents just decided they didn't want
to come-no reason given, so of course, the parents weren't coming either.
Warped family
dynamics being what they are, the subject then became verboten so my
father-in-law had to *sneak* a call to us to explain they wouldn't be
showing up. First I was hurt; then I was furious. Then I called up
several friends and we had an impromptu party.
Karl Lembke
NH> Sheri, Dan, et al - most of my friends who are vegetarians are very
NH> considerate people, and let me know their preferences well in advance
NH> to any meal I make, which allows me to accomodate them easily.
NH> However, I recently threw a wedding shower for a friend, and one of
NH> the guests (who didn't RSVP, I might add) not only threw a fit that
NH> there weren't more vegetarian choices (there were 18 guests, only one
NH> of which was a vegetarian and I served a deli tray of meats, potato
NH> salad, a pasta salad which conformed to vegan rules, a fruit tray and
NH> a vegetable tray) and grilled me about what was in each and every dish
NH> - and then proceeded to loudly complain that I was serving unhealthy
NH> food - she, being a dietician (how *that* was announced was pretty
NH> rude, too) would know, and I was poisoning these people.
I run in to people like this from time to time. I call them
"food nazis". They seem to live for the purpose of determining
what is the best diet for everybody, and haranguing all who
fall short of the ideal.
They have been known to pop up in food and cooking echos, and
after a cursory scan of the messages, announce that those who
are posting these recipes are "killing people".
In echos, these people can be ignored or filtered. In one's
home, such people are perhaps best invited to find a place
with a more congenial menu. (Of course, it's a good idea to
have enough friends in your life so that if one doesn't work
out, it's not the end of the world -- or your social life.)
... Time flies like wind. Fruit flies like pears.
Michelle Dick
>In article <sherae-1205...@192.0.2.1>,
>Sheri McRae <she...@zeta.org.au> wrote:
>>
>>Dan, what a terrific answer. As a vegetarian who hates for people to go
>>out of their way to make something different just for me it's hard to know
>>exactly what to say beforehand and you've helped. I'd rather the host just
>>prepare what he/she would normally prepare and let me eat whatever
>>veggies, salads, etc. are there. I really dislike a lot of fuss and focus
>>on my vegetarianism espcially during a meal where others are missing out
>>on their steak because I don't eat dead cows. I have no desire to push the
>>results of my decision onto others. Thanks.
>
>i think that some omnivores feel alienated and/or uncomfortable
>with vegetarians because they've encountered some who were
>offensively evangelistic.
Of course, but keep in mind that the reverse happens too! Just
because of my .sig, I've gotten long nasty diatribes against
vegetarians by private email (when the post had nothing to do with
vegetarianism or even food, nor even posted in food groups (one came
from a post in rec.arts.books)).
Just as there are offensively evangelistic vegetarians, there are
those who are offensively evangelistic about the "evils" of a
vegetarian diet. I've been in situations where I turned down some
chicken, was asked why, and when I said I was a vegetarian was told
about how unhealthy that diet was, how the person knew all sort of
people who got very sickly on such a diet and how "holier than thou"
vegetarians were. All I said was "I don't eat chicken, I'm a
vegetarian". That's all. And I get this rude response back!
>on the other hand, most vegetarians i know are perfectly capable
>of behaving like adults, and this kind of behavior would be rude
>and offensive coming from anyone. i may or may not understand or
>agree with you, but i will respect your lifestyle choices if you
>respect mine.
Exactly. But one has to be on the guard against defensiveness just
because there are rude people out there. I imagine that some
vegetarians act badly under the excuse that that's the way they've
been treated by non-vegetarians. We agree that that's wrong no matter
who does it.
>you personally find unappealing. if your friend also implies
>that you're an amoral murdering beast, you'd probably be pretty
>offended.
Some non-vegetarians take a mere declaration of vegetarianism as moral
superiority. And others outright ask "why are you vegetarian?". I
usually decline to answer, but if they press (and some do, quite
vocefierously), I will say: "for my health, the health of the
environment, and the health of the animals". If they didn't want to
here my views on this, they shouldn't ask. If they take offense to
the answer, it's their own damn fault for asking.
I agree that it is rude to go about implying that meat eaters are
"murderers" just as it is rude to go about implying that vegetarians
are "holier than thou" or to go about implying that people who eat
very low fat are "fanatics" or "food-phobics". :-) One should keep
disparaging opinions to oneself.
--
Michelle Dick, art...@rahul.net, Owner: FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List
How complicated is it to eat fruits, vegetables, and whole grains?
--Dean Ornish
Michelle Dick
Susan Hattie Steinsapir <hat...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Strict vegan diets and macrobiotics are not about nutrition but
>control.
How does such a statment differ from:
"Non vegetarian diets aren't about food but about murder"?
The former is just as rude as the later.
As many have said in this thread: respect is a two-way street
--
Michelle Dick, art...@rahul.net, Owner: FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List
Alt.food.fat-free FAQ at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ar/artemis/afff.faq
Stephanie da Silva
Ninette R Enrique <nr...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>
>Adding to this bathroom tale, I have a kind of a non-food story but I
>have to tell it. I can't remember who it was, a friend of a friend kind
>of thing, but this girl was going out with this super rich guy from Long
>Island. The first time she went to went to this guy's mother's mansion,
>she was really nervous and had to go to the bathroom really badly.
>Trying to be on her best "rich people" kind of behavior, she asked the
>mother where the "powder room" was. The mother directed her and sure
>enough, she got into the room and it was a powder room! Too embarrassed
>to go back out and ask where the bathroom was, she kind of got up on the
>sink to go. Well, the sink disattached from the wall!
>
>woman's small dog and killed it.
>
You get no brownie points.
It's an urban legend.
Sorry about including the entire thing, but the people on afu always
are interested in the entire text of these sort of tales.
Donald Mitchell
I missed the initial post, so if I spout nonsense, please ignore me...
art...@netcom.com (Michelle Dick) wrote:
>>i think that some omnivores feel alienated and/or uncomfortable
>>with vegetarians because they've encountered some who were
>>offensively evangelistic.
Perhaps they are afraid of "conversion" :>
>Of course, but keep in mind that the reverse happens too! Just
>because of my .sig, I've gotten long nasty diatribes against
>vegetarians by private email (when the post had nothing to do with
>vegetarianism or even food, nor even posted in food groups (one came
>from a post in rec.arts.books)).
I hope that you don't take this to be a "nasty diatribe", it isn't
meant to be...
> and when I said I was a vegetarian was told
>about how unhealthy that diet was, how the person knew all sort of
>people who got very sickly on such a diet and how "holier than thou"
>vegetarians were.
Vegetarian diets ought not to be confused with vegetarian "DIETS".
There is a marked difference between one who doesn't eat animal flesh,
and one who eats only lettuce because they are attempting to loose
weight or "watch their fat intake" or something that only _seems_
healthy.
If you are vegitarian, and are aware of the factors which influence
your health, then I think that you have it made (I wish I could hold
to a strictly veg. diet, but alas, sushi won't let me :>) But if
you are vegetarian, and deny yourself nutrition on the basis of "Veg.
diets are healthier" then I think you need to examine your reasoning
for doing the things you do. This for your own sake! If I didn't
know you, I wouldn't say a thing, but if you were a friend of mine, I
_would_ ask your motives, because I would care about not only your
health, but that you were accomplishing what it was you set out to do!
>>on the other hand, most vegetarians i know are perfectly capable
>>of behaving like adults, and this kind of behavior would be rude
>>and offensive coming from anyone. i may or may not understand or
>>agree with you, but i will respect your lifestyle choices if you
>>respect mine.
Point well taken!
>Exactly. But one has to be on the guard against defensiveness just
>because there are rude people out there. I imagine that some
>vegetarians act badly under the excuse that that's the way they've
>been treated by non-vegetarians. We agree that that's wrong no matter
>who does it.
this is certainly not adult behaivior... (re: previous paragraph) and
I agree with you also.
>>you personally find unappealing. if your friend also implies
>>that you're an amoral murdering beast, you'd probably be pretty
>>offended.
I think that the "murdering beast" rational is about the worst excuse
for a reason I have ever heard!
We are ALL part of the food chain, and those plants were alive prior
to your eating them...
If you break this subject down enough, you wouldn't spray your lawn
for bugs, you wouldn't drink anything but water, and even then, it
would have to be FILTERED not chemically purified (there are bugs
EVERYWHERE), you wouldn't walk, ride, drive, or MOVE anywhere for fear
of trampling another living creature, you wouldn't live in a house
(they destroy animal habitats), or wear clothes (these kill plants and
animals both... even some synthetics come from dead ferns and extinct
dinosaurs!) in short, you would not live for very long. This is how
irrational that excuse is.
I understand that one may consider the QUANTITY of meat consumed in
America (or elsewhere, for that matter) appalling, but not the CONCEPT
of living off another life, whether animal, plant, fungus, protist,
etc...
All life on this planet is recycled... it is impossible to remove
yourself from this cycle of life and death, as you read this, microbes
are breaking down your body, and returning it to the earth that
spawned you, and your parents before you, and their parents......
So, to truly be "at one" with your fellow animals, take your place
WITH them.
>Some non-vegetarians take a mere declaration of vegetarianism as moral
>superiority. And others outright ask "why are you vegetarian?". I
>usually decline to answer, but if they press (and some do, quite
>vocefierously), I will say: "for my health, the health of the
>environment, and the health of the animals". If they didn't want to
>here my views on this, they shouldn't ask. If they take offense to
>the answer, it's their own damn fault for asking.
Again.. this is by far the best reason to be veg. but I think that is
important that your views are real, not falsified... If you are eating
to be healthy, make sure that what you eat IS healthy...
I say this because I know a few people who claimed to be vegetarian,
said it was better for them, and then proceed to systematicly starve
themselves until their body craved protein so badly they went and did
something stupid like eat fast food for a week streight! This cycle
is anything BUT healthy. Their intentions were right on target, but
their methods were way off.
>I agree that it is rude to go about implying that meat eaters are
>"murderers" just as it is rude to go about implying that vegetarians
>are "holier than thou" or to go about implying that people who eat
>very low fat are "fanatics" or "food-phobics". :-) One should keep
>disparaging opinions to oneself.
I agree here also... To insult another for what they eat is moronic
(note that this applies both ways!)
My point is that done right, both omnivorous and herbivorous
behaivior are acceptable lifestyles, and that better communication
might ease the stress stemming from different eating habits.
-All opinions subject to change without prior notification
-All other standard disclaimers apply
Donald Mitchell
--------------------------------------------------------
****************do...@SmartDOCS.com**********************
"If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up
too much room!" -NO FEAR Carpe Diem
--------------------------------------------------------
Andy Pforzheimer
In article <720860...@gcft.demon.co.uk>, Kemp Anderson (ke...@gcft.demon.co.uk) writes:
>
>Thankfully, I've never experienced any of these socially challenged
>indivduals when entertaining. My heart goes out to those who have.
>"Difficult" guests with special dietry needs are unavoidable but
>*rude* guests are unforgivable.
>
>To those hosts whose guests include picky individuals that find your
>hospitality insulting despite your best efforts, I would recommend
>the following course of action. Open your wallet/purse, present
>them with a suitable amount along with directions to a nearby
>McDonalds/KFC/Veggies-R-Us and asking them politely to leave in order
>that the more civilised members of the party might enjoy themselves.
>
I worked in a restaurant where the owner -- a real jerk, but a good
cook -- kept some McDonald's gift certificates in the office for
the rare but eagerly anticipated (by us) occasion when a customer
really got his goat. I guess that's more in the "rude hosts"
category.
>Either that or give them a good slap on the face (but I'm just a
>liberal).
>
>Guaranteed to do wonders for the blood pressure and will probably be
>very entertaining for the other guests.
>
>--
>Kemp Anderson
>Glasgow College of Food Technology
>Email: ke...@gcft.demon.co.uk
>
>[my own opinion]
>_____________________________________________________________________
>
>Future (n.) - A time when our affairs will prosper, our lives will be
>fulfilled and all will be rosey in the garden. Usually the day after
>tomorrow.
>______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
Sheri McRae
> apf...@pfood.win.net (Andy Pforzheimer) writes:
> >
> >I want to hear more of these. So far, the two "rude guests" stories
> >have left me slack-jawed with horror. Anyone else?
> >
>
> Once, I was cooking for my boyfriend's family. My boyfriend was
bragging about
> my specialty and they all wanted to try it. I prepared the salad and
the first
> batch and brought it out to the table. I then finished the second batch and
> brought it to the table, only to discover that the salad and main course had
> been devoured in the five minutes I was in the kitchen, and that the
family was
> watching television in the livingroom. I ate the second batch by
myself, at an
> empty table, surrounded by dirty plates they expected me to wash.
If you're staying with the same boyfriend you're in for a lifetime of that
behaviour. That is an amazing story.
Sheri
Sheri McRae she...@zeta.org.au
God put me on Earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I'm so far behind I will never die.
Ed Weinstein
i overheard a similar stroy
i filed it as fact because the woman was telling an incredibally
embarassaing story about herself
you can decide
at the coffe pot at work one monday morning a very fat woman
was telling another person about her weekend
she went to visit her sister in her new home
when she went upstairs to the bathroom, she sat on the throne
and broke it
the ensuing water damage was quite severe apparantly
i guess the ceiling downstairs fell in
i was not at the womans sisters house, so i didnt see the incident
but i cant believe that she would make up such a story
like i said, you decide
ed weinstein
e...@acy1.digex.net
JOHN EVANS
On 5/15/95 PAT HOLLAND tore through the quick and succinctly stated:
P(>I think what's lost in this whole thread is that people (guests) have been
P(>RUDE. Whatever happened to the days when you just simply smile and don't
P(>eat what you don't want? Anyone who complains about the food at a dinner
P(>party or at a host's home doesn't deserve to eat anything.
Bless You Pat! There are still people out there who realize the importance
of good manners!
Here in Key West, our local Catholic Church runs a soup kitchen for the
homeless. The volunteer cooking staff includes some of the most reknown
former chefs in the world... yet, the "guests" going through the line can
often be overheard saying, "I can't eat meat, why don't you have a vegetarian
line?"
Or Worse, "Grilled fresh fish again!?!?!? We've had that 16 times in the
last two months!"
****GO FIGURE****
P(> It's getting more and more difficult to even PLAN a dinner party when you
P(>guests' culinary preferences into account: Jim doesn't eat meat, but will
P(>eat fish; Jan is a vegan; Ernie doesn't like lemon; Sue hates eggplant;
P(>then there's the low cholesterol crowd, etc., etc., etc.
You're absolutely correct... Maybe I can pass on to you a couple of hints to
deal with such a thing....
(1) Try to find out those items that people are absolutely allergic too...
You know, like if I eat shellfish, I'll die type stuff... and do indeed
consider THAT when you're inviting them for a dinner party.
(2) When you invite them...tell them what YOU have planned for the party...
and let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to be a part of
it. Hold the party and make sure those who did not appear find out what a
WONDERFUL SMASHING party it was!
P(>Shoot, I just depressed myself...
Now don't do that... so many of us were looking forward to coming to one of
your great parties!!!!
John Evans
VERSATILE TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATES
PO Box 5734
Key West, FL 33045-5734
John_...@TheTropics.Win.Net
---
* PowerAccess 1.06 Positive: Wrong at the top of your voice
Jeanne Hinds
entertain quite a bit which I love to do. WHat really annoys me though
is that people rarely, if ever, reciprocate. After about four years of
solid entertaining, I sat down and calculated the ratio of my
entertaining to the number of guests who reciprocated or even wrote a
Thank you note. It was 8 to 1. For every eight times I had someone
over to our house for dinner, etc., we got one reciprocal invite. Most
people never write a note thanking me.
We have even had people come up to us asking, "When are you all having
us over again?", and I just stand there with a mixed bag of emotions
seething inside me. Feelings of being used, pride that my entertaining
is a hit, disappointment that once again I must do the work of
entertaining while wishing someone would entertain me, and some hurt in
wondering why they cannot open their home to us the way I open my home
(and heart) to them. There are some people I have never had back to my
home because of their blatant "gimme, gimme" view of life.
I know I am venting but after nine years of one-sided entertaining, I
am discouraged. I don't fix extravagant meals, just good home cooking
so I don't think I am intimidating people into believing they could
never equal what I do. I was just wondering if anyone else encounters
this lack of reciprocity and what attitude you take.
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Jeanne Hinds | Founder, President, & Chief |
| j...@anser.pdial.interpath.net | Lobbyist of the Society for the |
| | Prevention of Cruelty to Guests |
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Ninette R Enrique
> I entertain quite a bit which I love to do. WHat really annoys me though
> is that people rarely, if ever, reciprocate. After about four years of
> solid entertaining, I sat down and calculated the ratio of my
> entertaining to the number of guests who reciprocated or even wrote a
> Thank you note. It was 8 to 1. For every eight times I had someone
> over to our house for dinner, etc., we got one reciprocal invite. Most
> people never write a note thanking me.
> We have even had people come up to us asking, "When are you all having
> us over again?", and I just stand there with a mixed bag of emotions
> seething inside me.
Jeanne, I can sympathize with you. Most of my friends don't cook at all,
so even if they come over, I can be pretty sure that we won't be invited
over their houses b/c they barely cook for themselves! I don't know how
old you are, but I'm thirty this year and surrounded by friends who are
lawyers, investment bankers, corporate people, etc., and work long
hours. On top of that, we all live in New York City, and believe me,
you don't even need a kitchen b/c you can eat out all the time. I make
time to cook; they don't.
If your friends aren't like that, then I say speak up, girlfriend! If my
friends asked me, hey when are you going to have us all over again? and I
was slightly annoyed, I would say with a big smile on my face, "hey, when
are YOU going to have us over. we'd love to come over. how about next
saturday? I'll call everyone. It'll be a blast. What would you like me
to bring? Oh, I know, I'll bring dessert."
Plant the seed, plant the seed.
Ninette
Ray Rangel
>
>I agree that it is rude to go about implying that meat eaters are
>"murderers" just as it is rude to go about implying that vegetarians
>are "holier than thou" or to go about implying that people who eat
>very low fat are "fanatics" or "food-phobics". :-) One should keep
>disparaging opinions to oneself.
>
> --Dean Ornish
Excuse me for butting into this conversation and mutal back-patting, but I
couldn't help but insert a comment at this point.
You know I was reading this thread with some amusement and nodding my head
every once in a while in agreement with some comment or other. But this
just kinda grabbed my attention and wouldn't let go!
Do you really mean that people should keep their opinions to themselves?
How about yours? Most vegitarians that I know ARE HOLIER THAN THOU
FANATICS WHO EXPSOUSE ALL KINDS OF PSEUDO SCIENCE MUMBO-JUMBO THEY READ IN
A MAGAZINE...SOMEWHERE...BY SOMEONE....
That's my opinion! There I said it! That's my opinion. By the way...if
people kept their opinions to themselves....you wouldn't know who to feel
superior to.....
--
.------------------------------------.
| ( You can never be lost |
| ) ) because no matter where |
| ( ( you go...there you are. |
| _____ |
| | |-, Ray Rangel |
| | |-' xr...@texas.net |
| '-----' |
'------------------------------------'
John David Auwen
>I know I am venting but after nine years of one-sided entertaining, I
>am discouraged. I don't fix extravagant meals, just good home cooking
>so I don't think I am intimidating people into believing they could
>never equal what I do. I was just wondering if anyone else encounters
>this lack of reciprocity and what attitude you take.
I've experienced this same thing. I think many people just would rather
not go to the trouble of cooking, etc. It's a lot easier to just go to
other people's houses. After I invite someone a few times and they don't
reciprocate, I just stop inviting them for dinner. We'll still get together
to visit but I stop cooking for them.
When we lived in Austin, we were really good friends with a couple who,
I swear, ate at other people's houses 80% of the time. It's a heck of a
lot cheaper than eating out at restaurants and less work than cooking at
home! In fairness, they would always bring something like drinks or
dessert but they were still getting more than they gave IMHO!
Don't let it get you down. It's a very common phenomenon. There are just
not that many generous people out there who are also good cooks! I've
found, as we've gotten older, that we've gotten out of the "dinner party"
mode and just cook for our "extended family" most of the time. At least
our relatives reciprocate when we go visit them...
Dave
au...@convex.com
Sophie Laplante
>I know I am venting but after nine years of one-sided entertaining, I
>am discouraged. I don't fix extravagant meals, just good home cooking
>so I don't think I am intimidating people into believing they could
>never equal what I do. I was just wondering if anyone else encounters
>this lack of reciprocity and what attitude you take.
My friends usually reciprocate, or offer to bring something, so
I haven't run into that particular problem, but I have been at a
lack for words on a couple of occasions when they have asked if
they could take leftovers home with them. ??? What are you
supposed to say? "Well, I was planning on having that for lunch
tomorrow, but thanks for offering to take it off my hands"??
Where's Miss Manners when I need her!
-- Sophie Laplante -- G: (shouts) Who do you think you are? --
-- Dept of Computer Science -- R: Rhetoric! Game and match! --
-- University of Chicago -- -- Tom Stoppard --
-- sop...@cs.uchicago.edu -- R. & G. are Dead --
Roxy Baer
Michelle Dick <art...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Some non-vegetarians take a mere declaration of vegetarianism as moral
>superiority. And others outright ask "why are you vegetarian?". I
>usually decline to answer, but if they press (and some do, quite
>vocefierously), I will say: "for my health, the health of the
>environment, and the health of the animals". If they didn't want to
>here my views on this, they shouldn't ask. If they take offense to
>the answer, it's their own damn fault for asking.
Hmmm, ok Emily Post People, I have a question. Is it rude to ask why
someone is a vegetarian? Naturally it's rude to lambast someone for
their answer or to climb on some moral soapbox. But what if you're just
curious?
I'm afraid I do have a tendency to ask people, but it's not some morbid
desire to feel superior. Actually I tend to follow a strict vegetarian
diet for 4-6 months, switch to an omnivore diet for 6-7 months, and then
go vegetarian again. Let me tell you, I got harrassed by *everyone.*
Heh, if I eat nothing but junk food and soda, noone cares what I eat.
But if I don't eat a piece of chicken or if I *do* eat a piece of chicken,
everyone is all over my case. No wonder I'm plump, all I can eat is
chocolate cake! <giggle>
-Gypsy
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Roxanne Gypsy Baer gy...@prism.nmt.edu
"Question not what you can do - the only walls are those that you
perceive. So don't wear your glasses."
Ceon Ramon
Sophie Laplante <sop...@cs.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>My friends usually reciprocate, or offer to bring something, so
>I haven't run into that particular problem, but I have been at a
>lack for words on a couple of occasions when they have asked if
>they could take leftovers home with them. ??? What are you
>supposed to say? "Well, I was planning on having that for lunch
>tomorrow, but thanks for offering to take it off my hands"??
>Where's Miss Manners when I need her!
Assume expression of gratified delight. Say, "I'm so pleased that you
enjoyed <name of dish>. But I'm afraid I have other plans for it."
Think of it as a variation on the theme she deals with occasionally, that
of being asked to do something for someone. You're entitled to say no,
with no elaborate explanations or excuses.
--Barbara
Richard Thead
ago. Some of these people were great friends and some were just
coworkers I felt obligated to invite.
One of the coworker types and his wife brought their 2 year old son
because of "sitter problems." Kids had not been invited and I had
nothing to offer. The wife then proceeded to go around to all the
tables that I had put snacks on and brought the bowls to the kitchen
explaining to me in an admonishing tone that "young children could
choke on small foods like these." As if all my guests should do
without because of her little brat who shouldn't have been there in
the first place! She continued to be obnoxious all evening--complaining
that we were eating too late. Just general whining like that. Then
when it was time to eat--I had set out a buffet with warm tortillas,
carne asada, machaca and *all* the fixings-- she started bitching about
"how in the world was she supposed to be able to fix her own plate and
watch little junior?" Just an incredibly obnoxious person, they were
never invited back.
Epilog:
The husband is now serving 10 years in the state prison for child
molesting and his obnoxious wife got several years probation for
complicity. Makes you think a couple of peanuts from the snack
mix wouldn't have been so bad after all.
Rick
--
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Richard Thead | Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate |
| S/W Eng. Specialist | things -- Dan Quayle |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
Johanna Turner
Jeanne Hinds <j...@anser.pdial.interpath.net> wrote:
>THis isn't a specific story but it burns me up none the less. I
>entertain quite a bit which I love to do. For every eight times I had someone
>over to our house for dinner, etc., we got one reciprocal invite. Most
>people never write a note thanking me.
But Jeanne! Hopefully you aren't entertaining people because you hope
they'll reciprocate you're entertaining them because you like the people and
you like to have people over. Presumably if you invite them over it's
because they're friends and have interesting conversations and are generally
nice people, even if they don't entertain others at their homes.
Thank you notes are again nice, but I don't think an absolute requirement.
Mostly I'm surprised if I get thank you notes for inviting friends over. A
verbal thank you though is very nice. We don't entertain as much as I'd like
to, but when we do it's because I like cooking for people and inviting them
into my home. I don't expect them to invite me to their house. I do expect
them to be friends even when I don't invite them to dinner.
Johanna
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
tur...@reed.edu Johanna Turner
Computer User Services Reed College
Lynn M Tanksley
<snip>
: >vocefierously), I will say: "for my health, the health of the
: >environment, and the health of the animals". If they didn't want to
<snip>
: Again.. this is by far the best reason to be veg. but I think that is
: important that your views are real, not falsified... If you are eating
: to be healthy, make sure that what you eat IS healthy...
Why is this "by far the best reason" to be vegetarian? Seems to me a darn
good reason to eat or not eat something is whether or not you like the
taste of it.
Margaret Herda
> I know I am venting but after nine years of one-sided entertaining, I
> am discouraged. I don't fix extravagant meals, just good home cooking
> so I don't think I am intimidating people into believing they could
> never equal what I do. I was just wondering if anyone else encounters
> this lack of reciprocity and what attitude you take.
I can understand this feeling . . . but here's a POV from the "other side."
I haven't entertained at home for the past couple of years because I live
with my dear, elderly mother and it's difficult to have people over without
her hovering around, buging people to eat more, keeping me from being the
"adult" (I'm 39 . . .) of the house. My fiance lives in a very small
cramped and cluttered apartment that just doesn't fit anyone.
So, until Mom is settled somewhere on her own we really can't reciprocate.
We do try to contribute as much as possible to any dinner we're invited
to (dessert, wine, etc) and express our appreciation and regret that we
can't reciprocate right now. We know we "owe" a lot of dinners and as
soon as we have a place to do it, we'll be playing a lot of catch-up.
But, anyway, lack of suitable space could be one reason people don't
reciprocate.
Regards,
Margaret
Mary f
> My friends usually reciprocate, or offer to bring something, so
> I haven't run into that particular problem, but I have been at a
> lack for words on a couple of occasions when they have asked if
> they could take leftovers home with them. ??? What are you
> supposed to say? "Well, I was planning on having that for lunch
> tomorrow, but thanks for offering to take it off my hands"??
> Where's Miss Manners when I need her!
>
-------------------------
Good Grief what a hoot!! I've only ever had a relative ask for
leftovers (and that's normal in our family). I think your response
is pretty good, unless it was something they originally brought.
But at least, in a weird way, it's a compliment that
they'd like to take your food home.
Mary f.
Dan Schwarcz
Archy! After all these years, he's back again! How I've missed him...
Ed Weinstein is obviously a pen name. Boy, it must be a relief not to have
to jump headfirst onto those heavy manual keys anymore...
Say "hi" to Methiabel for me, assuming there's life in the old dame yet.
Dan Schwarcz
j.a. fielden
>Sophie Laplante <sop...@cs.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>My friends usually reciprocate, or offer to bring something, so
>>I haven't run into that particular problem, but I have been at a
>>lack for words on a couple of occasions when they have asked if
>>they could take leftovers home with them. ??? What are you
>>supposed to say? "Well, I was planning on having that for lunch
>>tomorrow, but thanks for offering to take it off my hands"??
>>Where's Miss Manners when I need her!
Hmm, my problems is usually the opposite. Making tons of food and
insisting people take some with them, so I don't pig out and eat it
all:-)
Closest I deal with the above is someone asking "Could I take a piece
home to <insert name here>" Usually it's not a problem and I don't
mind. Otherwise I'd say "Sorry but those leftovers have previous plans.
Nancy Howells
Sophie - regarding the friends who asked to take leftovers home with
them - at the very same bridal shower wherein I was so rudely insulted
by the woman who was just, for lack of a better word, a *itch, yet a
different guest asked if her boyfriend could come upstairs and make
himself a plate to go when he came to pick her up. What else to say
but yes? erg.
Then there was the wedding I went to wherein we were all asked to
bring a dish to pass. I have not yet received a thank you card for
the gift we gave, and we *did* bring a dish to pass, though I found it
somewhat strange, to say the least.
These are not my friends directly, btw, but friends of a friend.
--Nancy H.
Meredith Tanner
John David Auwen <au...@convex.com> wrote:
>In <3pprgl$r...@redstone.interpath.net> j...@anser.pdial.interpath.net (Jeanne Hinds) writes:
>>I know I am venting but after nine years of one-sided entertaining, I
>>am discouraged. I don't fix extravagant meals, just good home cooking
>>so I don't think I am intimidating people into believing they could
>>never equal what I do. I was just wondering if anyone else encounters
>>this lack of reciprocity and what attitude you take.
>
>not go to the trouble of cooking, etc. It's a lot easier to just go to
>other people's houses. After I invite someone a few times and they don't
>reciprocate, I just stop inviting them for dinner. We'll still get together
i love to cook for my friends, but most of my friends
don't cook much. usually i don't worry much about
whether they reciprocate my invitations, because i'm
so used to being surrounded by the etiquette-impaired.
the people i invite over frequently usually end up
taking my fiancee and me out to dinner in a restaurant
on occasion, though, so i figure it evens out in the
end. the one friend i have who DOES invite me to dinner
a lot only knows one dish she feels is "good enough" for
company -- so she makes it every time. it's a good
dish, too -- it's just that it's got something like a
pound of cheese and a pint of cream in it. no matter
how many times i tell her i'm trying to watch my fat
intake, she makes the same thing. maybe she doesn't
think cheese, butter, and cream are fattening?
speaking of the etiquette-impaired, i remember once
last summer a couple of friends of mine were in town
and i invited them to dinner. they called in the
morning to ask if they could bring a third guest,
which i agreed to. another friend showed up that
afternoon, having heard about the dinner, and we
invited him; he invited two more friends, one of
whom told yet another person. THAT person called
and tried to invite himself not only to dinner but
also to stay at our house that night -- and was
horribly offended when we told him, quite truthfully,
that a) we had no more food and no more room, and b)
that i had just cut partially through my finger with
a cleaver and that i couldn't talk right then because
i was trying to determine whether i needed to go to
the emergency room.
i decided against the hospital, the dinner for four
was expanded to eight and went reasonably smoothly,
and a year later not only is the person i turned away
still mad at me, several other people have since said
they heard about that great "party" i threw and why
weren't they invited?
where exactly do people get the idea that if you
invite them to your home they are authorised to
extend the invitation to everyone they speak to
between the time of the invitation and the event?
m
--
"Oh, there has been much throwing around of brains." -- Wm. Shakespeare
Cerebus
>THis isn't a specific story but it burns me up none the less. I
>entertain quite a bit which I love to do. WHat really annoys me though
>is that people rarely, if ever, reciprocate. After about four years of
>solid entertaining, I sat down and calculated the ratio of my
>entertaining to the number of guests who reciprocated or even wrote a
>Thank you note. It was 8 to 1. For every eight times I had someone
>over to our house for dinner, etc., we got one reciprocal invite. Most
>people never write a note thanking me.
I know just the feeling. Now some of it is fair - we have friends who
reciprocate in other ways - bringing gifts, a friend who paints who brings
us artwork, etc... There are a few friends of ours who can't reciprocate -
they can't cook, and they don't have the money to take us out. None of
these things bothers us (neither are we bothered by the friends who
can't cook and who invite us anyway ;-).
But we do have some real problems with friends keeping things relatively
"even" - for while I'm happy to be unbalanced with some people - our
extremely poor friends, a family with an infant daughter, etc..., if
you don't have a shockingly busy life, and are reasonably well off,
even if you can't *cook* us a meal, you could offer, or take us out
once in a while for pizza. We have one set of particularly demanding
(in other ways than this as well) friends, who often eat at our house,
and rarely reciprocate, never bring gifts, are often late, and have
occasionally abused our hospitality,
Do we still see them? Well, less than usual, but yes. We love them, and
while we get irritated with them, we put them down as "high maintenence"
friends, ones that take a lot of effort. It does bother me though. Where
were some of these people raised?
Sharon Astyk
Cerebus
>In article <3pprgl$r...@redstone.interpath.net>,
>Jeanne Hinds <j...@anser.pdial.interpath.net> wrote:
>>THis isn't a specific story but it burns me up none the less. I
>>entertain quite a bit which I love to do. For every eight times I had someone
>>over to our house for dinner, etc., we got one reciprocal invite. Most
>>people never write a note thanking me.
>But Jeanne! Hopefully you aren't entertaining people because you hope
>they'll reciprocate you're entertaining them because you like the people and
>you like to have people over. Presumably if you invite them over it's
>because they're friends and have interesting conversations and are generally
>nice people, even if they don't entertain others at their homes.
No, one doesn't entertain in the hopes of being invited back - but one
does expect occasional reciprocation. Entertaining requires time and
energy and financial outlay, and in the course of a friendship, its nice
to try and keep things even - so that one party isn't continually giving
and another simply taking.
Sharon Astyk
Ceon Ramon
Nancy Howells <how...@athena.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>Sophie - regarding the friends who asked to take leftovers home with
>them - at the very same bridal shower wherein I was so rudely insulted
>by the woman who was just, for lack of a better word, a *itch, yet a
>different guest asked if her boyfriend could come upstairs and make
>himself a plate to go when he came to pick her up. What else to say
>but yes? erg.
Maybe we need to look at these interactions sub specie aeternitatus.
If you were dying and asked to review your actions about entertaining
guests, what would you say about the the response you offered to the
random person who was (in retrospect) rude or greedy?
You want the left-overs? _Yes_, for goodness sakes, take the left-overs!
Why spend the next five or ten years harboring (or enjoying) resentment
about the request. It's not as if they were asking you for your soul.
It's just food. You can make more of it.
Give the food or don't give the food. What are we talking about,
anyway? A bit of foodstuff, eh? Who cares? Let the food go, and if the
people are boors, let them go, too.
>Then there was the wedding I went to wherein we were all asked to
>bring a dish to pass. I have not yet received a thank you card for
>the gift we gave, and we *did* bring a dish to pass, though I found it
>somewhat strange, to say the least.
People are getting ruder and ruder, at least in this country and as far
as I can tell -- I guess Miss Manners is not as popular as _Married with
Children_.
>These are not my friends directly, btw, but friends of a friend.
Well then, let it go. They're ignorant, discourteous people. You don't
have to stay in touch with them.
--Barbara
Jeanne Hinds
tur...@reed.edu (Johanna Turner) writes:
> But Jeanne! Hopefully you aren't entertaining people because you hope
> they'll reciprocate you're entertaining them because you like the people and
> you like to have people over. Presumably if you invite them over it's
> because they're friends and have interesting conversations and are generally
> nice people, even if they don't entertain others at their homes.
Of course! But reciprocity is a key element to a good relationship. I
have one friend who has never had me or my husband over for a meal but
routinely invites me out to a nice restaurant for breakfast. Other
clsoe friends express affection and reciprocity in other ways. What I
am specifically referring to are the people who take, take, take from a
relationship with nothing given in return. THey must find us fun to be
with because of the constant angling for an invite but have really
nothing more to do with us other than eating our food and enjoying the
evening's fun. There just isn't any reciprocity of any sort to speak
of.
As a result, I have two tiers of hospitality - the high maintenance (as
Sharon Astyk phrased it) relationships in which require a constant
giving on our part with no expectation of return and the closer, more
reciprocal hospitality enjoyed between friends. The former is
decreasing in frequency since I have an increasingly lowered tolerance
for self-centeredness of others who expect the world owes them. With
the latter, not everyone expresses their enjoyment of other's company
with food and drink but rather in phone calls, little notes sent to
encourage, giving of small gifts for no good reason, and other displays
of mutual friendship. I recognize that most of my good friends do not
enjoy entertaining and that I do but I find their reciprocity in other
ways just as valid and endearing. It is the people professing
friendship but who take, take, take all the time who I find distressing
and discouraging.
>
> Thank you notes are again nice, but I don't think an absolute requirement.
> Mostly I'm surprised if I get thank you notes for inviting friends over. A
> verbal thank you though is very nice. We don't entertain as much as I'd like
> to, but when we do it's because I like cooking for people and inviting them
> into my home. I don't expect them to invite me to their house. I do expect
> them to be friends even when I don't invite them to dinner.
Janis Lane
>
> I can understand this feeling . . . but here's a POV from the "other side."
> I haven't entertained at home for the past couple of years because I live
> with my dear, elderly mother and it's difficult to have people over without
> her hovering around, buging people to eat more, keeping me from being the
> "adult" (I'm 39 . . .) of the house. My fiance lives in a very small
> cramped and cluttered apartment that just doesn't fit anyone.
>
I understand this feeling ALL TOO well! I think that the secret to the
whole thing is this:
It is far better to go to someones house (regardless of the situation
i.e., cramped, hovering moms...etc) than
to always be the one that never gets invited to others houses. I have had
some of the best parties in my TINY house.
I always had down to earth food, lots of laughs, and everyone ends up
feeling at home and welcome. The secret is
the desire to just be with friends and to have fun!
Don't get me wrong...I LOVE having friends over...but after years of
inviting it would be nice to go somewhere else once
in a blue moon!
Sue M. Ford
>Then there was the wedding I went to wherein we were
>all asked to bring a dish to pass. I have not yet
>received a thank you card for the gift we gave, and we
>*did* bring a dish to pass, though I found it somewhat
>strange, to say the least.
>
>These are not my friends directly, btw, but friends of
>a friend.
Wasn't it kind of unusual that they invited you to their
wedding if they weren't your friends?
Sue
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.
Sandra Greiner
though
>is that people rarely, if ever, reciprocate.
I love to host dinner parties; I'd have them every couple of weeks, if
I had the time. Others in my circle of friends also host dinner
parties, but I never enjoy their parties as much as I enjoy my own
(although I'd *never* let on!). I like the challenge of choosing the
right food (each time trying at least one new dish), inviting just the
right people, and planning everything so that the evening is (almost)
as relaxing and fun for me as for everyone else. This is a lot of
work, and some people lack the time or talent for it. But I host
dinner parties because I enjoy it -- as do my friends -- and not
because I'm fishing for invitations. I know Miss Manners is big on
reciprocal invitations (and I do try to invite those who have invited
me), but it sounds like Jeanne Hinds has a slight attitude problem. If
you don't enjoy hosting dinner parties, then stop doing it. Perhaps
your friends will take up the slack.
Sho Kuwamoto
>[...] the dinner for four
>was expanded to eight and went reasonably smoothly,
>and a year later not only is the person i turned away
>still mad at me, several other people have since said
>they heard about that great "party" i threw and why
>weren't they invited?
Merideth,
I just now heard that you had some people over to your
house. Why didn't you and Curtis invite me?!?!
Sheesh.. Talk about rude!!!
-Sho
--
s...@physics.purdue.edu <<-- finger this account to find out what I'm
having for lunch!
kevin wilhite
Ninette R Enrique <nr...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>Jeanne, I can sympathize with you. Most of my friends don't cook at all,
>so even if they come over, I can be pretty sure that we won't be invited
>over their houses b/c they barely cook for themselves!
>I'm thirty this year and surrounded by friends who are
>lawyers, investment bankers, corporate people, etc., and work long
>hours. On top of that, we all live in New York City, and believe me,
>you don't even need a kitchen b/c you can eat out all the time. I make
>time to cook; they don't.
These "friends" are still rude. Because they can't or won't cook is
still no excuse for not reciprocating. From what you've written, they
all seem to be in the upper income brackets. Let 'em cater a dinner.
And it ought to be a good one, very good, to make up for the fact that
it isn't homemade.
--
--------------------------------------
The advance of civilization is nothing
but an exercise in limiting privacy.
-Pelorat