Demi-Glace and Glazes: Questions for the pros
bmai...@eyecon.com
Speaking as an ex-saucier, Dylan, I can tell you that those are very
good questions, and most require an explanation that I'm too hot and
tired to sit down and type out longly on. However:
4) No. A beef glaze (or demi-glace) is so concentrated that you'd get
very strong bitter flavors just by diluting it back to "stock."
6) I can't think of any sauces using a demi-glace as a base. It's
basic use is to provide a little "kick" of extra flavor, and provide a
glossy shine to the sauce. You don't use large quantities of it at all.
It's too hot. I can't think. Maybe tomorrow I'll come back and answer
the rest.
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Anne Bourget
I am not a pro and won't even attempt to answer your questions. But it
sounds as though you have researched the subject yourself. There are the
standard general text (I especially like the CIA's) but, as always, I am
going to recommend a book:
Sauces: Classical and Contemporary Sauce Making
James Peterson
Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1991
I think that the book is still in print. You might want to see of the San
Francisco Public Library has a copy and check it out, for it is a rather
expensive book. As expected, this book covers in depth the vast subject
of sauces (stocks, glaces, white and brown sauces, fish, shellfish, and
meat sauces, jellies and chauds-froids, hot emulsified egg-yolk sauces,
mayonnaise-based sauces, butter sauces, vinaigrettes, purees, and dessert
sauces.)
Anne
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Anne Bourget bou...@netcom.com
Anne Bourget
Brian,
What do you think of Peterson's book?
Mads H|jbjerg Toftum
First of all - I'm only "half pro", but I've got an extensive library. Try
f.ex. books like: Escoffier or a basic textbook from a professional cooking
school.
>Some of these questions are a bit advanced, some a bit naive perhaps.
>1) Is there any difference between a "glaze" and a "demi-glace"? I
>suspect that a glaze is even more reduced than a demi-glace, but quite
>frankly I'm not sure.
Demi-glace (Chef's compendium) Half - glaze or basic brown sauce.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1 litre estouffade
1 litre espagnole
25 mililiter truffle essence
1 mix together all ingredients
2 reduce by boiling to 1 litre
3 Strain and season.
If you need the recipies for estouffade or espagnole let me know.
>2) What is the best way to make a glaze? In particular, does it make a
>difference if one reduces the stock slowly versus quickly? (I've read
>that it does -- but is it really true?) Are there any other special
>techniques, and how long does it take to, say, reduce 3 qt of veal stock
>to a glaze?
Reduce your stock slowly, think what a shame it would be to ruin a stock after
having it simmer for 8 - 10 hours.
>3) What do professional kitchens typically use as the ratio of:
8l. meat stock to 250 ml glaze
9l chicken stock to 375 ml glaze
9l veal stock to 375 ml glaze
Boil 3 1/2 - 4 hours. When ready the glaze should be sticky to touch.
>4) Can one re-constitute a stock out of a glaze by adding water? For
>those of us with small kitchens, might it make sense to reduce all of our
>stocks to a glaze and add water when necessary?
Yes, or use it the other way round to give flavor. Glaze will also most likely
keep longer.
>5) I've seen references to beef and veal glazes, but never to chicken
>glazes. Why is this? Does chicken glaze not taste good? (Would anyone use
>a brown chicken stock based glaze as a substitute for veal? Much more
>cost effective when you have to start with 15 lbs of bones...)
Who says you need 15 pounds, try making a smaller portion (unless you're going
to start a restaurant).
Brown veal stock (Fonds de veau brun)
3 kilos veal bones
300 grams onions
100 grams carrots
80 grams cellery
150 grams tomato pure
10 whole peppercorns
1 bayleaf
1 twig thyme
6 - 8 litres cold water
40 grams parsley stalks
25 grams flour (optional)
1 Chop bones in smaller pcs.
2 brown in hot oven 15 min. Add cleaned, coarsely chopped vegetables, tomato
(and flour).
3 transfer to a large pot after 45 min. (remove fat)
4 add cold water and bring slowly to the boiling point. remove all foam. Add
bayleaf, thyme and parsley. Boil 5 hours at low heat under lid.
5 Strain through cloth and season lightly with salt and pepper (omit salt and
pepper if making glaze).
NB! This would probably make about 100 ml glaze. The stock could also be frozen
>Thanks to anyone who can help out on this stuff. I think that mastery of
>a rich glaze is probably one of the keys to extraordinary cooking -- true
>or false?
True if extraordinary means classical.
>Dylan
Mads Toftum
u92...@daimi.aau.dk
Dylan Yolles
their sauces to give them a particularly rich flavor. (Glaze = highly
reduced stock). Most home cooks don't, probably because it takes a lot
of time to reduce the stock; in any event, I have seen very few
mainstream cookboks which talk about glazes. I have a number of questions
-- perhaps some of the professionally trained folks on the group will
be able to answer them.
Some of these questions are a bit advanced, some a bit naive perhaps.
1) Is there any difference between a "glaze" and a "demi-glace"? I
suspect that a glaze is even more reduced than a demi-glace, but quite
frankly I'm not sure.
2) What is the best way to make a glaze? In particular, does it make a
difference if one reduces the stock slowly versus quickly? (I've read
that it does -- but is it really true?) Are there any other special
techniques, and how long does it take to, say, reduce 3 qt of veal stock
to a glaze?
3) What do professional kitchens typically use as the ratio of:
Mass (pounds) of meat and bones in the base recipe...
...to volume (quarts) of cold water for the base stock..
...to volume (quarts) of basic meat stock...
...to volume (quarts) of demi-glace or glaze
Books for home cooks typically
call for 1 lb meat : 1 qt. water : 3/4 qt stock : ? qt. glaze. Some
professional boks I have seen call for 2 lb meat : 1 qt water : .5 qt
stock : .25 qt demi-glace. Clearly - the professionals are after a more
flavorful product.)
3a) If a demi-glace is different than a glaze, what are the volume
proportions for each?
4) Can one re-constitute a stock out of a glaze by adding water? For
those of us with small kitchens, might it make sense to reduce all of our
stocks to a glaze and add water when necessary?
5) I've seen references to beef and veal glazes, but never to chicken
glazes. Why is this? Does chicken glaze not taste good? (Would anyone use
a brown chicken stock based glaze as a substitute for veal? Much more
cost effective when you have to start with 15 lbs of bones...)
6) Does anyone have any recipes for sauces based on glazes or
demi-glaces? What are the typical proportions used to get a flavorful but
not overpowering sauce?
7) A killer glaze recipe would also be nice. I'm making some as we speak,
so we'll see how it turns out.
Thanks to anyone who can help out on this stuff. I think that mastery of
a rich glaze is probably one of the keys to extraordinary cooking -- true
or false?
Dylan
Andy Pforzheimer
In article <dylanyDB...@netcom.com>, Dylan Yolles (dyl...@netcom.com) writes:
>I know that most professional kitchens use meat glazes and demi glaces in
>their sauces to give them a particularly rich flavor. (Glaze = highly
>reduced stock). Most home cooks don't, probably because it takes a lot
>of time to reduce the stock; in any event, I have seen very few
>mainstream cookboks which talk about glazes. I have a number of questions
>-- perhaps some of the professionally trained folks on the group will
>be able to answer them.
>
>Some of these questions are a bit advanced, some a bit naive perhaps.
>
>1) Is there any difference between a "glaze" and a "demi-glace"? I
>suspect that a glaze is even more reduced than a demi-glace, but quite
>frankly I'm not sure.
"glace" when talking about veal stock is one step short of epoxy.
>
>2) What is the best way to make a glaze? In particular, does it make a
>difference if one reduces the stock slowly versus quickly? (I've read
>that it does -- but is it really true?) Are there any other special
>techniques, and how long does it take to, say, reduce 3 qt of veal stock
>to a glaze?
As it reduces, the percentage of proteins and sugars (vs. water)
increases, so the likelihood of their burning increases, too. The
more reduced, the gentler the flame.
Takes about 1 1/2 hours, in answer to the second question.
>
>3) What do professional kitchens typically use as the ratio of:
>
>Mass (pounds) of meat and bones in the base recipe...
>...to volume (quarts) of cold water for the base stock..
>...to volume (quarts) of basic meat stock...
>...to volume (quarts) of demi-glace or glaze
This is a bit misleading. You can keep adding cold water 'til the
cows come home, as long as you boil it away. Generally you want
to use about 2x the *volume* of the bones to start with, and you'll
need to add more water after 8 hours or so.
50# of bones will give you ~3 quarts of nice demi-glace.
>
>Books for home cooks typically
>call for 1 lb meat : 1 qt. water : 3/4 qt stock : ? qt. glaze. Some
>professional boks I have seen call for 2 lb meat : 1 qt water : .5 qt
>stock : .25 qt demi-glace. Clearly - the professionals are after a more
>flavorful product.)
Strange book. You don't make it out of meat. See above for
proportions.
> 3a) If a demi-glace is different than a glaze, what are the volume
>proportions for each?
A glace is what happens if you leave the demi-glace on a bit longer.
>
>4) Can one re-constitute a stock out of a glaze by adding water? For
>those of us with small kitchens, might it make sense to reduce all of our
>stocks to a glaze and add water when necessary?
This is an *excellent* question. The answer is "no," but I can't
tell you how many cooks think that it's "yes." No, bexcause you
have caramelized the sugars to the point where they have a
distinctive taste, while stock is supposed to be neutral.
Practically speaking, for home cooking, it doesn't matter that
much.
>
>5) I've seen references to beef and veal glazes, but never to chicken
>glazes. Why is this? Does chicken glaze not taste good?
You can make them, but there isn't as much gelatin in chicken
bones. You never get the richness, just the color.
(Would anyone use
>a brown chicken stock based glaze as a substitute for veal?
Yes.
Much more
>cost effective when you have to start with 15 lbs of bones...)
>
That's why. Also, there's a "gummy" quality to veal reductions
that some people don't like.
>6) Does anyone have any recipes for sauces based on glazes or
>demi-glaces? What are the typical proportions used to get a flavorful but
>not overpowering sauce?
Reduce a flavoring agent (Madiera, white wine) with other flavoring
agents (thyme, raspberries) until it has some body. Add
demi-glace. Heat together to marry and reach a thick
consistency. Add butter. Voila! Classic French sauce.
>
>7) A killer glaze recipe would also be nice. I'm making some as we speak,
>so we'll see how it turns out.
>
>Thanks to anyone who can help out on this stuff. I think that mastery of
>a rich glaze is probably one of the keys to extraordinary cooking -- true
>or false?
To a few sauces that accompany some extraordinary dishes.
Actually, the *ability* to make a good glaze is an excellent
instructional course, so it probably will help. but you can live
fine without it.
>
>Dylan
>
>
bmai...@eyecon.com
Dave Breece (dbr...@use.com) writes that I wrote:
ID>In article <017127TBOV...@eyecon.com>, <bmai...@eyecon.com> wrote:
ID>>6) I can't think of any sauces using a demi-glace as a base. It's
ID>>basic use is to provide a little "kick" of extra flavor, and provide a
ID>>glossy shine to the sauce. You don't use large quantities of it at all.
Then you reply:
ID>WHAT?? Demi-glace is one of the grand sauces, with all kinds of
ID>derivative sauces. Bordelaise, Chasseur sauce, and Robert sauce spring
ID>to mind, and there are loads of others.
Then I respond:
Demi-glace, being based on an "Espagnole" (brown stock) is a derivative
of the Bordelaise family. There are only _three_ "mother" or "grand"
sauces, surprisingly enough, that all other sauces derive from. They
are Bordelaise, Bechamel, and Hollandaise. You correctly point out that
Chasseur and Robert (and Robert's lil brother, Charcuterie) are
Bordelaise-derived.
Demi-glace (Apforz is right: a full glace can be used as a denture
adhesive, especially for corn on the cob) is basically not used as a
sauce base, it is used for finishing sauces to provide a bit deeper
color, a gloss to the finished sauce, and a kick to the flavor.
I understand there's a product in the supermarket called "Bovril" that
accomplishes much the same thing.
Dave Breece
>good questions, and most require an explanation that I'm too hot and
>tired to sit down and type out longly on. However:
snip
>6) I can't think of any sauces using a demi-glace as a base. It's
>basic use is to provide a little "kick" of extra flavor, and provide a
>glossy shine to the sauce. You don't use large quantities of it at all.
>It's too hot. I can't think. Maybe tomorrow I'll come back and answer
>the rest.
WHAT?? Demi-glace is one of the grand sauces, with all kinds of
derivative sauces. Bordelaise, Chasseur sauce, and Robert sauce spring
to mind, and there are loads of others.
I missed the original post, so forgive me if you're speaking of
something else. I think it's time to go get some veal bones...
--
===============================================================================
Dave Breece If the doors of perception were
dbr...@use.com Cleansed, everything would appear
http://www.iquest.net/dave/welcome.html As it is, Infinite. W. Blake
Dylan Yolles
: I am not a pro and won't even attempt to answer your questions. But it
: standard general text (I especially like the CIA's) but, as always, I am
: going to recommend a book:
: Sauces: Classical and Contemporary Sauce Making
: James Peterson
: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1991
Just got this boook. God is it ever good. It's about as dense reading as
a cook book gets, but I have no doubt it is the last book I will ever
read on sauces! It's geared towards professionals, but stil very, very
useful to those of us who would like to make three flower meals at home!
(One weakness - very little discussion of Asian sauces.)
Dylan
Michael H. Smith
Actually, there are 5 mother sauces: velouté, béchamel, espagnole, tomato,
and hollandaise.
bmai...@eyecon.com
Mi...@interlog.com writes:
Actually, there are 5 mother sauces: velouti, bichamel, espagnole,
tomato,
and hollandaise.
********************************************
OK, I'll grant that veggie sauces (such as tomato) _may_ constitute
another family. I don't think so, but they are sufficiently different
and have enough variations to maybe constitute a heirarchy.
But a veloute, on the other hand, belongs in the Bechamel
(cream+butter+stock) family, IMHO.
Vickie McCorkendale
>But a veloute, on the other hand, belongs in the Bechamel
>(cream+butter+stock) family, IMHO.
Veloute has no cream in it. Only stock and roux.
The five mother sauces listed in previous post:
>>Actually, there are 5 mother sauces: velouti, bichamel, espagnole,
>>tomato, and hollandaise.
are not just a good idea, but are the basis of all
Traditional French cooking.
There is no room for opinion on this, it's how they
were organized back in the 1700's by Escoffier.
Vickie McCorkendale
Culinary Student
Mads H|jbjerg Toftum
>In article <4548RULOG...@eyecon.com>, bmai...@eyecon.com wrote:
>> Dave Breece (dbr...@use.com) writes that I wrote:
>> ID>In article <017127TBOV...@eyecon.com>, <bmai...@eyecon.com> wrote:
>>
>> ID>>6) I can't think of any sauces using a demi-glace as a base. It's
>> ID>>basic use is to provide a little "kick" of extra flavor, and provide a
>> ID>>glossy shine to the sauce. You don't use large quantities of it at all.
>>
>> Then you reply:
>> ID>WHAT?? Demi-glace is one of the grand sauces, with all kinds of
>> ID>derivative sauces. Bordelaise, Chasseur sauce, and Robert sauce spring
>> ID>to mind, and there are loads of others.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then I respond:
>>
>> Demi-glace, being based on an "Espagnole" (brown stock) is a derivative
>> of the Bordelaise family. There are only _three_ "mother" or "grand"
>> sauces, surprisingly enough, that all other sauces derive from. They
>> are Bordelaise, Bechamel, and Hollandaise. You correctly point out that
>> Chasseur and Robert (and Robert's lil brother, Charcuterie) are
>> Bordelaise-derived.
>> Demi-glace (Apforz is right: a full glace can be used as a denture
>> adhesive, especially for corn on the cob) is basically not used as a
>> sauce base, it is used for finishing sauces to provide a bit deeper
>> color, a gloss to the finished sauce, and a kick to the flavor.
>>
>> I understand there's a product in the supermarket called "Bovril" that
>> accomplishes much the same thing.
>>
>> --
>> ****************
>> Via: Eye Contact BBS telnet: bbs.eyecon.com (204.94.37.2)
>> Modem:(415) 703-8200 Voice:(800) 949-2668 150 lines
>> ****************
>Actually, there are 5 mother sauces: velouté, béchamel, espagnole, tomato,
>and hollandaise.
That still doesn't change the fact that Demi-glaze is a brown sauce, and one of
the most used brown sauces. Those who think that it is used to "adjust" the
taste of other sauces are wrong, they must be thinking of glaze instead.
bmai...@eyecon.com
Vickie McCorkendale writes:
>>Actually, there are 5 mother sauces: velouti, bichamel, espagnole,
>>tomato, and hollandaise.
are not just a good idea, but are the basis of all
Traditional French cooking.
There is no room for opinion on this, it's how they
were organized back in the 1700's by Escoffier.
***********************
I don't know what I was thinking of/about. Just another case of my
naturally curly brains acting up again. Of course, you're right. Thank
you for correcting me.