Alfredo/Stroganoff- some background
Don Martinich
would lay on our younger readers what these words mean to some of us
older folks. A bunch of them probably think that they have always come
out of jars, boxes, or freezer aisles. Both early recipes are very
simple and easy to prepare. One wonders why there are so many
'convenience' versions.
For 'Stroganoff' I went to the Gourmet Cookbooks, both the 1950 and 1960
editions. They were very, very similar to the recipe in the Larousse
which in the French Edition goes back to 1938. So, I give you the
Larousse version.
from "Larousse Gastronomique"
(English edition, Crown Publishers, 1961)
Fillet of Beef (U.S.A. Tenderloin) Stroganoff
Slice 2 pounds of fillet into thin strips. Sprinkle with salt and pepper
and keep 2 hours in a cool place.
Make a light roux by blending 2 Tbsp. of hot butter with 1 1/2 Tbsp. of
flour and adding 2 cups of beef stock. When well blended add 1/4 cup of
sour cream. Either a tsp. of prepared mustard or tomato paste may be
added.
Saute 1 medium sized onion, minced fine,and the beef strips in 2 Tbsp.
of butter over high heat. When brown, combine with the sauce and simmer
15 minutes.
Alfredo "sauce"
Doris Muscatine, in her book "A Cook's Tour Of Rome", (Scribners, 1964)
tells us why there were 3 Alfredo restaurants in Rome, two of which were
started by Alfredo Di Lelio, who first made the dish famous. She then
gives us a recipe given to her by an Italian friend who claims to have
received it from the great man himself. here it is...
Fettucine All'Alfredo
about 1 lb. fettucine
4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
1/4 lb. butter
1/2 pint whipping cream
(I'll skip the part about making and cooking the pasta)
Place (the cooked pasta) on a preheated platter on top of a large scoop
of the following butter mixture:
Some time before cooking the pasta, melt the butter add the cheese, and
the cream slightly whipped, and beat together. Place one large scoop of
this mixture on the hot serving platter when the fettucine are ready,
and the rest in large lumps on top of the fettucine. Toss as quickly as
possible, adding large sprinkles of cheese as you mix. Serves four.
As you can see, Ms. Muscatine writes a more spartan recipe then a Child
or a Hazan. I suspect a cheese the quality of Reggiano and non-salted
butter would be appropriate
D.M.
Giusi
"Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>
> about 1 lb. fettucine
> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
> 1/4 lb. butter
> 1/2 pint whipping cream
NO CREAM!
Paul M. Cook
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
CREAM! I cannot imagine this dish without it. Otherwise it's just butter
and cheese - a congealed mess.
Paul
J. Clarke
Anybody ever tell you that it's pointless to try to teach a pig to sing
because it wastes your time and annoys the pig? If not, consider
yourself told. Alfredo in the US is made with cream. You can shout
forever and you're not going to change that. But your continued harping
on it becomes tedious after a while.
Catmandy (Sheryl)
> "Giusi" <decob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
> > "Don Martinich" <dmartin...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> >> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>
> >> about 1 lb. fettucine
> >> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
> >> 1/4 lb. butter
> >> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>
> > NO CREAM!
>
> CREAM! I cannot imagine this dish without it. Otherwise it's just butter
> and cheese - a congealed mess.
>
> Paul
That's true using U.S. butter. The butter used when this dish was made
originally was so creamy, it made a silky topping for the pasta. I
wasn't there, but I've heard this is true. To have a similar result
using U.S. butter, you need to add cream. I would think, though, that
the fractions are flipped in the above recipe. I'd use twice as much
butter (not melted, softened) and add cream until the texture was
right. In fact, I'd almost want to whip the cream and butter together
and use that to top the pasta. Butter and cheese is what the
original Pasta Alfredo is.
Nunya Bidnits
Catmandy (Sheryl) <catm...@optonline.net> wrote:
But if the butter has been well clarified, all that remains is fat and no
milk solids or water, right?. How could adding cream do anything except
return water and milk solids to the butter you just carefully prepared? Why
would it make a difference where the butter came from once it's reduced to
pure butterfat?
I figured I was missing something so I went looking, and as it turns out,
Wiki explains it rather well. It's apparently the difference between
cultured butter and sweet cream butter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter
And as I stated in another thread, in the battle of cream vs butter Alfredo,
I have had an excellent Alfredo from a chef who makes it with olive oil.
(Not saying he's right or wrong, but he does it.) I suppose the reasoning
for that is less bad fats, but if cultured butter has a more pungent taste
then likewise the olive oil makes sense. It's a "healthy substitution." If I
run across him again I'll be sure to ask about his reasoning but now I think
I understand it better. I definitely undertstand that it tasted great.
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
That sweeping generalization about the entire US is just not true.
Either that or I have been surreptitiously teleported to Europe on occasion
when ordering that dish.
MartyB
Paul M. Cook
"Catmandy (Sheryl)" <catm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:cce0ccf6-f4b2-40e3...@m16g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
Well true enough, sure. But I sure can't get the good stuff anywhere I know
of so for all practical purposes you have to use cream. This is the dairy
deprived US not Italy after all.
Paul
Paul M. Cook
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:i7d9vp$8hc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
You don't use clarified butter in this dish.
> I figured I was missing something so I went looking, and as it turns out,
> Wiki explains it rather well. It's apparently the difference between
> cultured butter and sweet cream butter.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter
>
> And as I stated in another thread, in the battle of cream vs butter
> Alfredo, I have had an excellent Alfredo from a chef who makes it with
> olive oil. (Not saying he's right or wrong, but he does it.) I suppose the
> reasoning for that is less bad fats, but if cultured butter has a more
> pungent taste then likewise the olive oil makes sense. It's a "healthy
> substitution." If I run across him again I'll be sure to ask about his
> reasoning but now I think I understand it better. I definitely undertstand
> that it tasted great.
In the end it's what tastes good to you. I laugh though when I see Alfredo
recipes calling for low fat milk in place of cream or in your case olive oil
in place of butter. The dish is hardly healthy from a cardiac point of view
which is why it's best to not eat it very often. My motto when it comes to
cooking is there is no bad food, only bad diets.
Paul
Paul M. Cook
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
You probably were, really good food can do that. The questioon is what did
you eat to bring you back here?
Paul
Kent
"Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> wrote in message
news:dmartinich-B4700...@londonmet-140-097-196-216.londonmet.ac.uk...
from the 1961 edition of "Larousse Gastronomique" edited by Escoffier
simmers the filet after browining and adds little else to a sauce of beef
stock, sour cream, and mustard. The later recipe from the later edition in
the 1970's of "Larousse Gastronomique" edited by Joanna Lange puts the
browned strips of filet in at the last minute. Henri Paul Pellaprat in
"Modern French Culinary Art" published in 1966 does the same. You can add
sauteed mushroom onion and shallot, and even carrot and not violate the
above, though I don't. Pellaprat's book is another "biblical" sources of
French cooking.
I frequently skip the browning, trim the filet of all its fat and sinew,
slice thinly across the grain, and add to the sauce at the last minute. I
always season with thyme and bay. I serve it over Pepperidge Farm frozen
puff pastsry, an easy way out.
It's a great dish, for something a bit different from the usual.
Kent
Kent
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
>
a fairly large portion relataive to the parmesan in her recipe in "Classic
Italian.......". So does Lidia in her "Italian American" book. She even adds
egg yolk. When I had Alfredo in Rome years ago I recall it being pretty
creamy. In fact I can't imagine it without cream. Now, it's so riddled with
cholesterol that it remains in the cookbook.
Kent.
graham
in the recipe.
Graham
Nunya Bidnits
That nutty Al Fredo guy has been talking to the press again?
;-)
graham
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
Graham
Victor Sack
> from "Larousse Gastronomique"
> (English edition, Crown Publishers, 1961)
>
> Fillet of Beef (U.S.A. Tenderloin) Stroganoff
>
> Slice 2 pounds of fillet into thin strips. Sprinkle with salt and pepper
> and keep 2 hours in a cool place.
>
> Make a light roux by blending 2 Tbsp. of hot butter with 1 1/2 Tbsp. of
> flour and adding 2 cups of beef stock. When well blended add 1/4 cup of
> sour cream. Either a tsp. of prepared mustard or tomato paste may be
> added.
>
> Saute 1 medium sized onion, minced fine,and the beef strips in 2 Tbsp.
> of butter over high heat. When brown, combine with the sauce and simmer
> 15 minutes.
Larousse Gastronomique comes close to the original, which is surprising,
because it is often quite hopeless in anything non-French. In the
original, both mustard and tomato paste are used.
> Alfredo "sauce"
>
> Doris Muscatine, in her book "A Cook's Tour Of Rome", (Scribners, 1964)
> tells us why there were 3 Alfredo restaurants in Rome, two of which were
> started by Alfredo Di Lelio, who first made the dish famous. She then
> gives us a recipe given to her by an Italian friend who claims to have
> received it from the great man himself. here it is...
What she writes truly borders on the weak-minded. Instead of mentioning
an imaginary friend, she should have bothered to eat the dish at one of
Alfredo's two restaurants. I did exactly that, at both of them. The
dish is prepared tableside, right before one's eyes; the recipe is
anything but secret.
> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>
> about 1 lb. fettucine
> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
> 1/4 lb. butter
> 1/2 pint whipping cream
There is no cream in Fettuccine all'Alfredo as prepared at Alfredo's
restaurants in Rome.
Victor
Don Martinich
<dmartinich-B4700...@londonmet-140-097-196-216.londonmet.ac
.uk>,
Don Martinich <dmart...@att.net> wrote:
> Both early recipes are very
> simple and easy to prepare. One wonders why there are so many
> 'convenience' versions.
Please read the above quote from my earlier post.
Nit-picking about the origins of the two posted recipes is irrelevant to
the subject of this post. (Yes, I know the subject title is misleading.
The above quote is really what it is about.) But, that's usenet I guess.
I chose these two recipes because they would be very influential in
introducing these dishes to America in the 50s and 60s. They became very
popular dishes and, obviously, easy to prepare. So, why so many
commercial knock-offs? I'm not really surprised that it happened, but,
to such an extant and for so long a time. Any opinions?
D.M.
sf
<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>Alfredo in the US is made with cream. You can shout
>forever and you're not going to change that. But your continued harping
>on it becomes tedious after a while.
It *is* monotonous, but they're the Alfredo police and they have a
mission to save the world.
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Paul M. Cook
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:i7e0rr$b9k$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
Speaking of nutty, a touch of nutmeg really works in that recipe.
Paul
J. Clarke
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:52:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Alfredo in the US is made with cream. You can shout
>> forever and you're not going to change that. But your continued harping
>> on it becomes tedious after a while.
>
> It *is* monotonous, but they're the Alfredo police and they have a
> mission to save the world.
And so another religion, the Church of the Holy Creamless Alfredo, is
founded.
Giusi
"Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>>> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>>>
>>> about 1 lb. fettucine
>>> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
>>> 1/4 lb. butter
>>> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>>
>> NO CREAM!
>
> CREAM! I cannot imagine this dish without it. Otherwise it's just butter
> and cheese - a congealed mess.
NOT for one with the skillò to use the right amount of pasta water and the
right timing for tossing. The cream is to make up for not knowing what the
**** you're doing.
Giusi
"sf" <sf.u...@geemail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Alfredo in the US is made with cream. You can shout
>>forever and you're not going to change that. But your continued harping
>>on it becomes tedious after a while.
>
> It *is* monotonous, but they're the Alfredo police and they have a
> mission to save the world.
OK, but soon it will be sold in cans to feed kids and then one day you won't
be able to get anything better than that. It will be like Kraft dinner all
over again with entire generations thinking orange powder makes real food.
Why screw up a simple recipe that every Italian housewife can make
perfectly?
Giusi
"Kent" <aka....@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio >
> Marcella Hazan, an acknowledged master of Italian cooking, uses heavy
> cream, a fairly large portion relataive to the parmesan in her recipe in
> "Classic > Italian.......". So does Lidia in her "Italian American" book.
> She even adds > egg yolk. When I had Alfredo in Rome years ago I recall it
> being pretty creamy. In fact I can't imagine it without cream. Now, it's
> so riddled with cholesterol that it remains in the cookbook.
Both of these ladies live in the USA and write for USians. Hazan learned to
cook in the USA although she moved there as an adult. Lidia moved to the US
as a child. Their recipes are Italian American, which is not Italian.
Pasta water, still boiling and salty, mixes with butter and Parmigiano to
create the creaminess. Alfredo has nothing to do with a dollop of any sauce
sitting on top of a bunch of overcooked noodles.
Stick with it, folks, and you get the food you deserve. You like it? Fine,
but maybe you have no basis for comparison?
I am going to create a filter excluding 'Alfredo', so sorry to anyone named
Alfredo who comes along. We'll never be acquainted.
J. Clarke
Goody. I was about to create one excluding "Giusi".
>
>
Giusi
"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> Goody. I was about to create one excluding "Giusi".
Please, be my guest.
Gorio
J. Clarke;1531182 Wrote:
> On 9/22/2010 11:13 PM, sf wrote:-> -
> Alfredo in the US is made with cream. You can shout
> forever and you're not going to change that. But your continued
> harping
>
> It *is* monotonous, but they're the Alfredo police and they have a
>
> And so another religion, the Church of the Holy Creamless Alfredo, is
> founded.
Let us proclaim the mystery of 'Fredo!!!!!
I use cream. So sue me. JK, don't.
--
Gorio
sf
wrote:
>NOT for one with the skillò to use the right amount of pasta water and the
>right timing for tossing. The cream is to make up for not knowing what the
>**** you're doing.
OK, educate us then.
sf
wrote:
>OK, but soon it will be sold in cans to feed kids and then one day you won't
>be able to get anything better than that. It will be like Kraft dinner all
>over again with entire generations thinking orange powder makes real food.
>
>Why screw up a simple recipe that every Italian housewife can make
>perfectly?
>
You made the wrong analogy for me. I like Kraft macaroni and cheese,
plus I can make my own killer macaroni and cheese dish if the mood
hits.
You used to be American. How can the average person who doesn't have
$15-30 lb cheese at his/her fingertips get Alfredo right using the
ingredients we have readily available over here?
sf
wrote:
>Pasta water, still boiling and salty, mixes with butter and Parmigiano to
>create the creaminess.
You're the first person to say openly that some pasta water is used to
thin out the cheese. I'll try that soon. TY. I'm open to cutting
back on saturated fats and unnecessary calories whenever possible.
Nunya Bidnits
So how about sharing your preferred method before you kill Al Fredo?
;-)
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
It's just grocery store fast food. The more popular a dish becomes, the more
people want to make an easy version, and the more unskilled cooks there are
who nevertheless want to put that dish on their family tables within the
limited time they have available. Fresh cooking has taken a back seat in
many households as working families juggle their priorities. Therefore, ever
attentive to the willingness of consumers to pay for shortcuts over quality,
food manufacturers are happy to adapt, reformulate and preserve, and put
some in a bottle.
MartyB in KC
blake murphy
come on, guisi. j. will be disappointed if you don't work up some hurt
feelings.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
a subconscious ploy, in psychic terms, to murder his father.
your pal,
sigmund
blake murphy
in america he's known as 'big al.'
your pal,
blake
Giusi
> wrote:
>
>>Pasta water, still boiling and salty, mixes with butter and Parmigiano to
>> >>create the creaminess.
>
> You're the first person to say openly that some pasta water is used to>
> thin out the cheese. I'll try that soon. TY. I'm open to cutting> back
> on saturated fats and unnecessary calories whenever possible.
Yay! Remember it won't sit aroundc when done. Serve it immediately. We
use a bit of pasta water with almost every pasta recipe. Makes a big
difference. I only don't when using a very wet sauce, like fresh tomato.
Giusi
"sf" <sf.u...@geemail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> You used to be American. How can the average person who doesn't have
> $15-30 lb cheese at his/her fingertips get Alfredo right using the
> ingredients we have readily available over here?
I still am. Is that what Parmigiano costs there? Whew! Fortunately, it
doesn't take that much. Really, working it takes experience. you have to
toss and add hot pasta water, emulsifying the cheese, butter and hot water
with the pasta until it goes creamy. add a bit, if it needs it, add more.
Eat immediately. It will be cheaper with water, too.
Mixing and eating immediately are not very American attitudes, but lots of
other things came slowly too, like Thai food.
Felice
"blake murphy" <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1no26iqe82o77.hylf5rj3t1aq$.dlg@40tude.net...
Nah, Fredo is the dopey brother who gets offed in the rowboat. RIP John
Cazale.
Connie
Giusi
"blake murphy" <blakepm...@verizon.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
, Giusi wrote:
>
>> "J. Clarke" < ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>
>>> Goody. I was about to create one excluding "Giusi".
>>
>> Please, be my guest.
>
> come on, guisi. j. will be disappointed if you don't work up some hurt>
> feelings.
Works up one stingy tear.
Dimitri
news:i7croi$v95$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>>> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>>>
>>> about 1 lb. fettucine
>>> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
>>> 1/4 lb. butter
>>> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>>
>> NO CREAM!
>
> and cheese - a congealed mess.
>
NOPE the pasta water added to the butter creates a creamy sauce with the
cheese.
Mixed right in the serving bowl.
Never a congealed mess.
Dimitri
Dimitri
news:1jp8xgz.1y04wahhhgp2yN%azaz...@koroviev.de...
Nor their NYC restaurant not their Disney World restaurant.
Dimitri
Dimitri
news:dmartinich-FEAEE...@londonmet-140-097-196-216.londonmet.ac.uk...
Simple - the Marketing tools of the American Restaurant business:
Chicken Scampi
Chicken Alfredo
Meatballs Marinara
Next abominations - Der Weinerschnitzle Hot Dogs Alfredo..... & Scampi
burgers.
Dimitri
Dimitri
> Since 'Alfredo' and 'Stroganoff' have been recent subjects, I thought I
> would lay on our younger readers what these words mean to some of us
> older folks. A bunch of them probably think that they have always come
> out of jars, boxes, or freezer aisles. Both early recipes are very
> simple and easy to prepare. One wonders why there are so many
> 'convenience' versions.
>
> editions. They were very, very similar to the recipe in the Larousse
> which in the French Edition goes back to 1938. So, I give you the
> Larousse version.
>
> from "Larousse Gastronomique"
> (English edition, Crown Publishers, 1961)
>
> Fillet of Beef (U.S.A. Tenderloin) Stroganoff
>
> Slice 2 pounds of fillet into thin strips. Sprinkle with salt and pepper
> and keep 2 hours in a cool place.
>
> Make a light roux by blending 2 Tbsp. of hot butter with 1 1/2 Tbsp. of
> flour and adding 2 cups of beef stock. When well blended add 1/4 cup of
> sour cream. Either a tsp. of prepared mustard or tomato paste may be
> added.
>
> Saute 1 medium sized onion, minced fine,and the beef strips in 2 Tbsp.
> of butter over high heat. When brown, combine with the sauce and simmer
> 15 minutes.
Another case of the French getting it wrong! (or you)
Stroganoff MUST contain
Beef
Butter
Mushrooms
Sour Cream.
Everything else is optional.
of course it was invented by Betty Crocker.
Dimitri
Bob Terwilliger
> You're the first person to say openly that some pasta water is used to
> thin out the cheese. I'll try that soon. TY. I'm open to cutting back
> on saturated fats and unnecessary calories whenever possible.
In that case, it's better to avoid alfredo altogether.
Bob
Motzarella
"sf" <sf.u...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:qsom9612g5dr8hsn3...@4ax.com...
Suggest you head on over to Costco. They deal is some seriously good 3 year
old excellent parmesan; and it doesn't cost as you state above.
Alan
Motzarella
"Dimitri" <Dimi...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:i7g85d$2gc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
What, no Mexican lasagna!
Alan
Paul M. Cook
"Omelet" <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ompomelet-A0277...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <i7croi$v95$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote:
>
>> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
>> >
>> > "Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> >
>> >>
>> >> about 1 lb. fettucine
>> >> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
>> >> 1/4 lb. butter
>> >> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>> >
>>
>> CREAM! I cannot imagine this dish without it. Otherwise it's just
>> butter
>> and cheese - a congealed mess.
>>
>> Paul
>
Actually when I was able to eat pasta I would enjoy a plate of pasta tossed
with melted butter and black pepper and I would douse that with fresh
parmesan. It was good but not smooth and velvety like Alfredo is.
Paul
sf
wrote:
>
>"sf" <sf.u...@geemail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Pasta water, still boiling and salty, mixes with butter and Parmigiano to
>>> >>create the creaminess.
>>
>> You're the first person to say openly that some pasta water is used to>
>> thin out the cheese. I'll try that soon. TY. I'm open to cutting> back
>> on saturated fats and unnecessary calories whenever possible.
>
>Yay! Remember it won't sit aroundc when done. Serve it immediately.
Don't worry, my food doesn't sit around. :)
>We
>use a bit of pasta water with almost every pasta recipe. Makes a big
>difference. I only don't when using a very wet sauce, like fresh tomato.
>
Noted. TY.
sf
You're starting to sound like my husband, Bob. :(
Bob Terwilliger
>>> I'm open to cutting back on saturated fats and unnecessary calories
>>> whenever possible.
>>
>>In that case, it's better to avoid alfredo altogether.
>
> You're starting to sound like my husband, Bob. :(
The _Cafe Beaujolais_ cookbook says something like this about its recipe for
pasta alfredo: "It doesn't have vitamins. It doesn't have fiber. It's hardly
got any protein or minerals. It's just cheesy gooey full-fat decadence."
Bob
sf
wrote:
>I still am. Is that what Parmigiano costs there? Whew!
I pulled those numbers out of thin air based on what I've seen
recently at cheese local purveyors. What you'd consider cr*p costs
$7-14, the better stuff is significantly more.
Paul M. Cook
>
> "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> "Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>
>>>> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>>>>
>>>> about 1 lb. fettucine
>>>> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on top
>>>> 1/4 lb. butter
>>>> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>>>
>>> NO CREAM!
>>
>> CREAM! I cannot imagine this dish without it. Otherwise it's just
>> butter and cheese - a congealed mess.
>
> right timing for tossing. The cream is to make up for not knowing what
> the **** you're doing.
I guess you could say it all comes out the same.
Paul
Paul M. Cook
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:04:14 +0200, "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>NOT for one with the skillò to use the right amount of pasta water and the
>>right timing for tossing. The cream is to make up for not knowing what
>>the
>>**** you're doing.
>
I have actually written about this, on *this* group, several times, about
the importance of adding the pasta water to the dish, cream or no cream. I
have always done it by simply not draining the pasta. That is a no no. I
use a pasta "spoon" and scoop up the pasta and go directly to a plate I am
holding in my other hand which has been pre-warmed and loaded up with butter
and freshly grated reggiano. This way I get just the right amount of
starchy pasta water along withe the pasta. Then I add the room temperature
cream and toss until smooth and creamy. I will agree with Juicy that the
pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that there is some
skill involved is horse shit. The cream, as Sheryl stated, makes up for the
relatively lean cream we in the USA have access to. Even when I lived in
New Hampshire the cream we could get fresh from farms was not as rich as
what you can get in Europe.
Paul
Steve Pope
>Why screw up a simple recipe that every Italian housewife can make
>perfectly?
Has Alfredo become that popular in Italy? This must be a relatively
recent thing.
Steve
J. Clarke
How does the cream make up for cream? Did you mean something else?
Paul M. Cook
"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i7i0b...@news7.newsguy.com...
Should have read cream makes up for the relatively lean butter.
Paul
Bob Terwilliger
>>> The cream, as Sheryl stated, makes up for the relatively lean cream we
>>> in the USA have access to. Even when I lived in New Hampshire the cream
>>> we could get fresh from farms was not as rich as what you can get in
>>> Europe.
>>
>> How does the cream make up for cream? Did you mean something else?
>
> Should have read cream makes up for the relatively lean butter.
Since cream is leaner than butter, how does that "make up" for the butter?
Bob
Paul M. Cook
> In article <i7h6cd$9pn$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> to enjoy bean thread (mung bean) noodles in may ways. :-) Shiratake too.
Diabetes here. Also very common these days.
Paul
Giusi
"Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
I will agree with Juicy that the
> pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that there is some
> skill involved is horse shit.
In Italy it is done tableside for several people at once, so maybe your
technique works for you alone, but if preparing it for a tableful of people,
it takes a bit of skill to toss it about and emulsify it with NO CREAM.
You use cream because you ain't got the skilz. You ain't gottem because you
haven't tried.
Paul M. Cook
> In article <i7i62s$8g8$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> diet, is it any wonder why?
> --
Not to mention HFCS in everything. Actually pasta was probably my undoing.
I ate it very often. I used to keep a lot of it in the pantry plus I loved
making bread so I was always cooking pizza or calzones. I am the only cook
in the family and I am also the only one with diabetes. But a high carb
diet was what did it for me, to be sure.
Paul
Paul M. Cook
>
> "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> I will agree with Juicy that the
>> pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that there is
>> some skill involved is horse shit.
>
> In Italy it is done tableside for several people at once, so maybe your
> technique works for you alone, but if preparing it for a tableful of
> people, it takes a bit of skill to toss it about and emulsify it with NO
> CREAM.
Made it for 4 guests once. Turned out perfect. I would tell anyone
thinking of making this dish that it is perhaps the EASIEST thing in the
world to prepare. The secret is to use the best pasta and reggiano you can
buy. A child could do it and for you to make it sound like some black art
is just plain silly.
> You use cream because you ain't got the skilz. You ain't gottem because
> you haven't tried.
I use cream cuz it's goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood. Other people
besides you can not only cook but please others with their cooking.
Is there an emoticon for sticking your tongue out?
Paul
Giusi
>> "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>> I will agree with Juicy that the
>>> pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that there is
>>> some skill involved is horse shit.
You are the one who said that without cream you get congealed glop.
Paul M. Cook
> In article <i7ikjs$s9u$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> --
That's a keeper.
Paul
Paul M. Cook
I did indeed. Because that's what you get when you leave out the cream and
as has been noted the butter we get here in the US is much less rich than
what you get in Italy. Not all of us can live as you do, some of us have to
make do with the crap in corporate grocery stores. And another thing, I
can't recall who it was but back in the day when Food TV Network was just
getting started one of the personalities went to the very restaurant where
the dish was created. He had it prepared for him by the manager at
tableside and WITH cream. AND her was permitted to use the restaurants
solid gold fork and spoon reserved for their VIPs. That is where I first
learned how to make the dish. Actually it is where I learned a lot about
how pasta dishes are prepared in Italy. I am as sure as can be that my
cooking probably measure up to the likes of an Italian chef but then it does
not have to. But *anyone* can make Alfredo and make a damned fine meal with
it.
:-d
So there!
Paul
blake murphy
> "blake murphy" <blakepm...@verizon.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> , Giusi wrote:
>>
>>> "J. Clarke" < ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>>
>>>> Goody. I was about to create one excluding "Giusi".
>>>
>>> Please, be my guest.
>>
>> come on, guisi. j. will be disappointed if you don't work up some hurt>
>> feelings.
>
> Works up one stingy tear.
well done. we must foster a sense of community here.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> "blake murphy" <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1no26iqe82o77.hylf5rj3t1aq$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:44:02 -0500, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>>
>>> graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:8fu4u5...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>>>
>>>>>> Fettucine All'Alfredo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> about 1 lb. fettucine
>>>>>> 4 handfuls grated Parmesan cheese, plus more cheese to sprinkle on
>>>>>> top 1/4 lb. butter
>>>>>> 1/2 pint whipping cream
>>>>>
>>>>> NO CREAM!
>>>> His son was interviewed on CBC radio a few years ago and he specified
>>>> cream in the recipe.
>>>> Graham
>>>
>>> That nutty Al Fredo guy has been talking to the press again?
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>
>> in america he's known as 'big al.'
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> Nah, Fredo is the dopey brother who gets offed in the rowboat. RIP John
> Cazale.
>
> Connie
actually, i've most often heard 'fredo' in reference to alberto gonzales.
(that was the nickname assigned to him by bush the lesser, who i assume
thought of himself as vito.)
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> "Don Martinich" <dmart...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:dmartinich-B4700...@londonmet-140-097-196-216.londonmet.ac.uk...
>> Since 'Alfredo' and 'Stroganoff' have been recent subjects, I thought I
>> would lay on our younger readers what these words mean to some of us
>> older folks. A bunch of them probably think that they have always come
>> out of jars, boxes, or freezer aisles. Both early recipes are very
>> simple and easy to prepare. One wonders why there are so many
>> 'convenience' versions.
>>
>> For 'Stroganoff' I went to the Gourmet Cookbooks, both the 1950 and 1960
>> editions. They were very, very similar to the recipe in the Larousse
>> which in the French Edition goes back to 1938. So, I give you the
>> Larousse version.
>>
>> from "Larousse Gastronomique"
>> (English edition, Crown Publishers, 1961)
>>
>> Fillet of Beef (U.S.A. Tenderloin) Stroganoff
>>
>> Slice 2 pounds of fillet into thin strips. Sprinkle with salt and pepper
>> and keep 2 hours in a cool place.
>>
>> Make a light roux by blending 2 Tbsp. of hot butter with 1 1/2 Tbsp. of
>> flour and adding 2 cups of beef stock. When well blended add 1/4 cup of
>> sour cream. Either a tsp. of prepared mustard or tomato paste may be
>> added.
>>
>> Saute 1 medium sized onion, minced fine,and the beef strips in 2 Tbsp.
>> of butter over high heat. When brown, combine with the sauce and simmer
>> 15 minutes.
>
> Another case of the French getting it wrong! (or you)
>
> Stroganoff MUST contain
>
> Beef
> Butter
> Mushrooms
> Sour Cream.
>
> Everything else is optional.
>
> of course it was invented by Betty Crocker.
>
> Dimitri
busy little bitch, wasn't she?
your pal,
blake
Nunya Bidnits
LOL! Amen. I don't get the stock thing. S&P, add grated onion to the sautee
butter, a grating of nutmeg, deglaze with white wine are my optionals.
Just for fun I looked it up in an old ring binder Betty Crocker cookbook
c.1969, twenty-seventh printing 1976. There's this recipe, complete with
stock, garlic and (gasp) catsup.
CLASSIC BEEF STROGANOFF
1 pound beef tenderloin or sirloin steak, about ½ inch thick
2 tablespoons butter or margarine
1/2 pound mushrooms, washed, trimmed and sliced
1 medium onion, minced (about Y2 cup)
1 can (10½ ounces) condensed
beef broth (bouillon)
2 tablespoons catsup
1 small clove garlic, minced
1 teaspoon salt
3 tablespoons flour
1 cup dairy sour cream
3 to 4 cups hot cooked noodles (page 224)
Cut meat across the grain into ½-inch strips, about 1½ inches long. Melt
butter in large skillet. Add mushrooms and onion; cook and stir until onion
is tender, then remove from skillet. In same skillet, cook meat until light
brown. Reserving ½ cup of the broth, stir in remaining broth, tile catsup,
garlic and salt. Cover; simmer 15 minutes.
Blend reserved broth and flour; stir into meat mixture. Add mushrooms and
onion. heat to boiling, stirring constantly. Boil and stir 1 minute. Reduce
heat. Stir in sour cream; heat. Serve over noodles.
4 SERVINGS..
--
-
J. Clarke
> "Giusi"<deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8g4684...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook"<pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:i7ikjs$s9u$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> "Paul M. Cook"<pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>>
>>>> I will agree with Juicy that the
>>>>> pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that there is
>>>>> some skill involved is horse shit.
>>
>> You are the one who said that without cream you get congealed glop.
>
> I did indeed. Because that's what you get when you leave out the cream and
> as has been noted the butter we get here in the US is much less rich than
> what you get in Italy.
Yeah, theirs has a whole 2 percent or so more butterfat.
The difference is not "richness" but a different manufacturing process
that gives a different taste.
The stuff to look for in the US would be "European-style butter" or
"cultured butter", which Trader Joes and Whole Foods both have, among
others.
And personally I've never gotten "congealed glop" unless I let things chill.
sf
wrote:
>That's a keeper.
>
I don't know what a "d" does, people usually use a p or P sometimes
followed by one or more ~ .
Paul M. Cook
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:13:59 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net>
> wrote:
>
>>That's a keeper.
>>
> I don't know what a "d" does, people usually use a p or P sometimes
> followed by one or more ~ .
>
I found it very impressionistic.
Paul
J. Clarke
FWIW, Thunderbird interprets the one with the "d" as a smiley-face with
a huge grin and eyes shut.
sf
Aha. Thanks! My news reader keeps them as ASCII(?) characters.
Nunya Bidnits
> news:i7i0b...@news7.newsguy.com...
>> On 9/24/2010 3:49 AM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>> "sf"<sf.u...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1qom96hcfoiqq81fu...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:04:14 +0200, "Giusi"<deco...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
As I posted before, if you check you'll find that the European preparations
are made with cultured butter. We are using straight pasteurized butter for
the most part. Look upstream where I changed the subject line to "sweet
cream vs cultured butter".
It is not only higher in butterfat, it reportedly has a more refined and
complex flavor.
This site has a recipe for recreating cultured butter from cream and whole
milk yogurt:
http://cooklikeyourgrandmother.com/2008/06/how-to-make-cultured-butter-and-buttermilk/
After study I've convinced myself that the difference in Euro and American
"Alfredo" is in the butter, plus the failure to assemble the pasta properly
including the inclusion of a little water, is what led to the short cut
version of making the dish with heavy cream.
My next question, if I could ask a chef who truly prepares the authentic
recipe with the proper ingredients, would be whether one should clarify the
butter first, and if so, to what state should the clarified butter be
cooked... browned a bit, or just the milk solids and water removed?
When you read the accounts of the creation of the dish and the chef's
distinctive butter, it's easy for me to infer that he was using cultured
butter, clarified and cooked to a light nutty state.
MartyB
Victor Sack
> When you read the accounts of the creation of the dish and the chef's
> distinctive butter, it's easy for me to infer that he was using cultured
> butter, clarified and cooked to a light nutty state.
I wonder what accounts you mean. I also wonder why there is so much
mystery surrounding this very simple dish.
First, I doubt very much that culured butter (burro di panna acida) has
ever been much available or even well known in Italy. Anyway, I have
never tasted such butter when living or visiting there. I think the
default butter in Italy is sweet cream butter. Living in Germany, where
three kinds of butter - Süßrahmbutter (sweet cream butter),
Sauerrahmbutter (soured cream, i.e. cultured butter) and mildgesäuerte
Butter (sweet cream butter to which lactic acid is added) - are sold in
most every supermarket and grocery, I ought to know the difference.
Even now, I have some Italian-made well-regarded raw-cream butter,
produced by Beppino Occelli <http://www.occelli.it/inglese/burro.asp>,
in my refrigerator. Since it is sold in Germany where such labelling is
compulsory, it is explicitly labelled as Süßrahmbutter (sweet cream
butter).
Second, in fettuccine all'Alfredo, the butter is not cooked at all, let
alone clarified. As stated before, the dish, fettuccine al triplo
burro, is a simple variation on a still simpler dish, fettuccine al
burro. Fettuccine al burro is prepared by simply mixing freshly cooked
fettuccine with butter. Then there is fettuccine al doppio burro
(double butter), which is made by putting in some butter in a dish (the
first stage), mixing in the freshly cooked fettuccine and then adding
more butter. In both cases cheese is often added at some point.
Alfredo "modified" the latter preparation by putting in twice as much
butter (whatever "twice" means, as the amount was pesumably not exactly
specified in the anonymous and ubiquitous "doppio burro" preparation) in
the first stage, and otherwise proceeding as above. That is all there
is to it.
Victor
Nunya Bidnits
Victor Sack <azaz...@koroviev.de> wrote:
> Nunya Bidnits <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> When you read the accounts of the creation of the dish and the chef's
>> distinctive butter, it's easy for me to infer that he was using
>> cultured butter, clarified and cooked to a light nutty state.
>
> I wonder what accounts you mean. I also wonder why there is so much
> mystery surrounding this very simple dish.
>
original chef's wife would have nothing but the particularly wonderful
butter he used, which supposedly was beyond comparison.
I don't have time to go back and look for those links right now, sorry.
> First, I doubt very much that culured butter (burro di panna acida)
> has ever been much available or even well known in Italy. Anyway, I
> have never tasted such butter when living or visiting there. I think
> the default butter in Italy is sweet cream butter. Living in
> Germany, where three kinds of butter - Srahmbutter (sweet cream
> butter), Sauerrahmbutter (soured cream, i.e. cultured butter) and
> mildgesuerte Butter (sweet cream butter to which lactic acid is
> added) - are sold in most every supermarket and grocery, I ought to
> know the difference. Even now, I have some Italian-made well-regarded
> raw-cream butter, produced by Beppino Occelli
> <http://www.occelli.it/inglese/burro.asp>, in my refrigerator. Since
> it is sold in Germany where such labelling is compulsory, it is
> explicitly labelled as Srahmbutter (sweet cream butter).
>
> Second, in fettuccine all'Alfredo, the butter is not cooked at all,
> let alone clarified. As stated before, the dish, fettuccine al triplo
> burro, is a simple variation on a still simpler dish, fettuccine al
> burro. Fettuccine al burro is prepared by simply mixing freshly
> cooked fettuccine with butter. Then there is fettuccine al doppio
> burro (double butter), which is made by putting in some butter in a
> dish (the first stage), mixing in the freshly cooked fettuccine and
> then adding more butter. In both cases cheese is often added at some
> point. Alfredo "modified" the latter preparation by putting in twice
> as much butter (whatever "twice" means, as the amount was pesumably
> not exactly specified in the anonymous and ubiquitous "doppio burro"
> preparation) in the first stage, and otherwise proceeding as above.
> That is all there is to it.
>
> Victor
Thanks for "clarifying" that!
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
Bob Terwilliger <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
> The _Cafe Beaujolais_ cookbook says something like this about its
> recipe for pasta alfredo: "It doesn't have vitamins. It doesn't have
> fiber. It's hardly got any protein or minerals. It's just cheesy
> gooey full-fat decadence."
> Bob
That soundls like high praise to me!
Felice
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:i8d7su$l39$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
That's my kind of food!
Felice
Nunya Bidnits
J. Clarke <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
> On 9/24/2010 2:22 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> "Giusi"<deco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:8g4684...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "Paul M. Cook"<pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> news:i7ikjs$s9u$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> "Paul M. Cook"<pmc...@gte.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>>>
>>>>> I will agree with Juicy that the
>>>>>> pasta water is a key component. Though her insinuation that
>>>>>> there is some skill involved is horse shit.
>>>
>>> You are the one who said that without cream you get congealed glop.
>>
>> I did indeed. Because that's what you get when you leave out the
>> cream and as has been noted the butter we get here in the US is much
>> less rich than what you get in Italy.
>
> Yeah, theirs has a whole 2 percent or so more butterfat.
>
> The difference is not "richness" but a different manufacturing process
> that gives a different taste.
>
> The stuff to look for in the US would be "European-style butter" or
> "cultured butter", which Trader Joes and Whole Foods both have, among
> others.
>
I believe you're correct and I also posted about the cultured butter when
looking at the history and what might have accounted for the excellent
flavor using only butter and cheese and probably a little pasta water.
I also theorized about clarified or brown butter but was corrected on that
point by Victor IIRC. That pretty much leaves the cultured butter and it's
scarcity in the states as the reason why perhaps it is prepared differently
by many Americans.
MartyB