Wanted: Mexican Vanilla / Cheesecake secret
preston smith
Mexican vanilla (if you're not familiar with mex vanilla, its quite
different than what we in the US get at the supermarket). Does anyone
know of a mail order house?
By the way, this is 'the' ingredient that makes a so-so cheesecake
recipe a great one!
Kurt Rieder
: I'm from Charlotte, NC and am looking for where I might get some
We are on the last bottle of many that I brought back some years ago.
If you want to try following up... here's the info from the lable:
VAINILLA de PAPANTLA
Molina (brand)
concentracion 10X
Productos Uvavina, S.A.
Apartado 1-667
Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
The product must have "Papantla" in the name... the place where it's grown.
If it just says "vainilla" then it's probobly synthetic vanillin.
For the cheesecake... if you buy a good brand... McCormick perhaps...
and double the amount your recipe calls for, you won't be that far off.
This Mexican stuff is twice the strength of what is normally sold here.
You obviously like this flavor... just double it.
Anne Bourget
extract. Buyer beware. Much of the "vanilla extract" produced in Mexico
contains coumarin, which is banned by the FDA and is a potentially toxic
substance that can cause liver and kidney damage. And the label may say
pure vanilla extract, but this does not mean much. The labeling is not
government regulated and anything goes.
The reason that authentic Mexican vanilla is so scarce is because the
land used to cultivate the bean has been developed for other uses.
However, there *is* hope.
Nielsen-Massey is a very good company that produces excellent vanilla
extracts: Bourbon Madagascar, Tahitian, and Mexican. The latter two are
more difficult to find in retail stores, but you could contact the
company and either have them refer you to a local provider or see if you
can buy the Mexican vanilla directly from them:
Nielsen-Massey
1550 Shields Drive
Waukegan, IL 60085-8307
800 525-7873
FAX 708 578-1570
Ask for Matthew Nielsen
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Anne Bourget bou...@netcom.com
Jack and Kay Hartman
smith) writes:
>
>I'm from Charlotte, NC and am looking for where I might get some
>Mexican vanilla (if you're not familiar with mex vanilla, its quite
>different than what we in the US get at the supermarket). Does anyone
>know of a mail order house?
>
>By the way, this is 'the' ingredient that makes a so-so cheesecake
>recipe a great one!
Using Mexican vanilla is a bad idea. Vanilla has a long history in
Mexico but there is a plant that yields a vanilla-like bean that is
much easier to harvest, much more plentiful, and much cheaper than
vanilla in Mexico. Many bottles of Mexican vanilla do not contain
vanilla at all but instead contain this other bean (sorry I do not
remember its name). Other bottles contain a combination of vanilla and
this other bean. The problem with this is that this other bean is
toxic to humans. A small amount won't kill you, but it won't help you
either. Eat enough of it and you can damage yourself. It is very
difficult to avoid this bean because studies of Mexican vanilla have
found that even within a brand some bottles will have this other bean
and some will not. You just can never be sure that what you are buying
is really vanilla. Several years ago, the Los Angeles Times had an
article on the subject and recommended that everyone avoid Mexican
vanilla. I'm sure you can make a great cheesecake without it.
Kay
JLArnopolin
>I'm from Charlotte, NC and am looking for where I might get some
es anyone know of a mail order house?
>
>By the way, this is 'the' ingredient that makes a so-so >cheesecake recipe a great one!
I've tried the Nielsen Massey vanilla and found it doesn't hold
up for a really thick New York Cheesecake. Instead, I use
mexican vanilla I get from The Spice House in Milwaukee,
Wisconsin. It's very strong and adds a great flavor. They also
carry double strength. Their phone number is 414 272-0977. They
don't have an 800 number but they do take phone orders and ship
UPS.
However, vanilla is NOT the secret ingrdient. If your recipie
calls for lemon juice, make sure you use fresh squeezed, NOT
concentrate or reconstituted. The real secret to cheesecake is
to beat the cream cheese until it's almost liquid BEFORE you the
rest of your ingredients (sugar, eggs, vanilla & lemon juice).
Hope this helps.
--
Jan Nous sommes ecarteles entre l'avidete
JWr...@wwa.com de connaitre et le desespoir d'avior connu.
Jack and Kay Hartman
writes:
>I have posted a bit here about vanilla... and my information draws
>heavily from what I learned from a former colleague whom I meet while
>working in Tampico. He was born and raised in Papantla and at the
time
>we worked together, his elderly father was still a vanilla farmer in
>Papantla. I spent much of fourteen weeks with him and once came home
>with a bundle of vanilla beans larger than I could get my fingers
around.
>I also visited Papantla (near Vera Cruz) which is the heart of the
area
>where all vanilla originated (It also happens to be near the site of
>the ruins of El Tajin, a pre-columbian culture). I had a meal in the
>village, saw a little of the life there, and bought some souvenirs
made
>of vanilla beans (each was provided with a tin box to help retain the
>aroma of the beans). So what does all this prove ? Well...
It proves that Papantla is where vanilla originated (if I also remember
correctly). Vanilla beans are grown in Papantla. That is all this
proves.
On the other hand, even though Mexico grows vanilla (particularly
around Papantla) you cannot be sure when you buy a bottle whether or
not it is toxic. The labelling is not relevant. A survey based on
tests involving many brands of Mexican vanilla was published in the
L.A. Times and the conclusion was that some bottles labeled as pure
vanilla in Mexico may be but there is an about equal chance that they
may not be (the latter case being a toxic product).
When my mother returned from a trip to Mexico once with a bottle of
vanilla I told her to throw it out. She was reluctant so I called the
L.A. Times and got a reprint of the article. I no longer have the
reprint. I sent it to my mother. The article convinced her and she
took the safe route and tossed the bottle.
Kay
Dan Schwarcz
>
>Folks... much of the information contained in the post below is vastly
>inaccurate. I get the distinct impression that there is an alterior
>motive involved, perhaps the writer has some connection with Nielson-Massey...
>whoever they are... and is propagating a scare campaign. I have rarely
>ever seen such a warped description of what is and is not.
Hmm. "Vastly inacurate", "alterior motive". "Nielson-Massey, whoever
they are." Amazing, both in misinformed arrogance and spelling prowess.
Well, I'll respond. I have absolutely no connection to Nielsen-Massey,
other than having once considered starting a mail-order vanilla business
and thus investigated several suppliers. The post before mine had
mentioned them specifically, and so I added to that mention the fact that
they are, to my knowledge, the best. It's the stuff I use at home and
it won the Cook's Illustrated taste test.
Most of the information came from Patricia Rain, an internationally
recognized expert on vanilla, and author of The Vanilla Cookbook,
which is where I got much of the information. I have also had several
discussions with her regarding some of the points, such as Mexican
labeling laws (which she has been involved in reforming.)
>I have posted a bit here about vanilla... and my information draws
>heavily from what I learned from a former colleague whom I meet while
>working in Tampico. He was born and raised in Papantla and at the time
>we worked together, his elderly father was still a vanilla farmer in
>Papantla. I spent much of fourteen weeks with him and once came home
>with a bundle of vanilla beans larger than I could get my fingers around.
>I also visited Papantla (near Vera Cruz) which is the heart of the area
>where all vanilla originated (It also happens to be near the site of
>the ruins of El Tajin, a pre-columbian culture). I had a meal in the
>village, saw a little of the life there, and bought some souvenirs made
>of vanilla beans (each was provided with a tin box to help retain the
>aroma of the beans). So what does all this prove ? Well...
Not a damn thing, since I never said a single word in my post about
vanilla beans themselves, vanilla farming, or little tin boxes. I spoke
only about extracts.
>Crystal vanilla does exist... I saw it... the organic compound commonly
>know as vanillin, will, when heated, evaporate at quite a low temperature.
>One of those less common items in nature that have no liquid phase...
>passing directly from solid to vapor when heated and back to solid when
>cooled. As a vanilla farmer, my friend's father also made crystal vanilla
>from his beans... both the crystal and the beans are traded commodities.
>Vanilla as used in the kitchen could well be called tincture of vanillin.
>Either the natural or synthetic could rightfully be called by that name.
You can remove the vanillin from beans, and you can also create vanillin
from coal tar and other means. The bottle I saw that mentioned crystal
vanilla was part of a pack of different varieties, and it had wildly
innacurate explanations of the differences between them. I didn't quote
specifics because I didn't spend any money to buy the junk, and so
don't have it in front of me. But I remember them claiming that there
was brown vanilla, clear vanilla, crystal vanilla and that each was made
from a different bean!
Vanilla extract that I use is *not* "tincture of vanillin", and it has
a very different character than pure vanillin. There are something like
60 flavors that make up natural vanilla (I'm going from memory, the book
is at home, but I think it said 62) and vanillin, while dominant (though
much less so in Tahitian vanilla) is *not* the only significant one.
If you want just vanillin of unrivaled purity and quality, you can buy
it by the gallon for a couple of bucks. In many cooked foods it tastes
about the same as actual vanilla extract, according to Cook's Illustrated.
But since I use vanilla extract in chocolate milk, yogurt, and other
uncooked foods the taste difference is very dramatic, not just between
vanilla and vanillin, but between a good brand and the stuff they sell
in the supermarkets.
>The differance of course is that the natural product has a little bit of
>other stuff in it, which many people like... similar to pure grain
>alcohol and scotch... the latter has a little bit of that extra "right
>stuff".
Yeah, you must be a hell of a host. "Would you like some Glenlivet
Scotch, straight from Scotland? Yes? Well, here's some distilled
reagent-purity alcohol, derived from potato skins and bio-waste. But
I bought it in Scotland."
>Vanilla extract implies that it has been prepared by leaching
>the bean to get out the vanillin and other associated flavors, however
>the term is probably so loosly applied today that extract also implies
>disolving crystal vanilla in alcohol. The amount of alcohol used in
>making the tincture has no importance except that if it is not high
>enough proof, the vanillin can drop out of solution if it is cooled.
What is your source for this stuff? Where are you getting it from?
Don't tell me your friend's father supplemented his farming by consulting
on FDA regulations, extracting techniques and legal standards of purity.
In fact, vanilla extract doesn't "imply" anything. It refers to a product
of a leaching process from the bean. If you don't have enough of a
concentration the leaching will not work well. I have read that the
process is commercially carried out at 44% alcohol, and have also heard that
in a conversation with a woman who lectures and writes on vanilla and
is involved with all aspects of the vanilla industry on an international
scale. Unless you give me some reason other than a visit to a farm,
I see no reason to believe that you know better.
>If you had the crystal... that would be nearly 100% vanillin.
Repeat after me, you poor deluded soul: "Vanillin ain't vanilla."
I can get pure, 100% vanillin for about four bucks a gallon. I can
get a bottle of pure vanilla extract at full strength in a 44% alcohol
solution at $11 for eight ounces - and that's a pretty good price.
The McCormick's junk that's sold in my local Giant sells in one-ounce
bottles for $2.69 each.
>None of the vanilla we have had here... Mexican (several brands) and
>McCormick's has any sugar in it. The last time I saw a McCormick's
>bottle it said 5% and all the Mexican product I have had said 10%.
Now I know you're talking through your ass. I urge anyone reading this
to check out the next bottle of McCormick's Pure Vanilla Extract, or
Durkee's for that matter, or most store brands. They all say either
"water, 35% alcohol, extractives of vanilla, corn syrup" or some variation
thereof, with only one I've seen substituting "sugar" for "corn syrup."
If you have 5% or 10% anything in the ingredients, it sure isn't any
of the major brands in the US, which are not required to list the
percentage of anything other than the alcohol, and 35% is the legal
minimum for THAT in vanilla extract.
Unless you're reading a label on a bottle of artificial vanillin, which
I can assure you is *not* derived from natural vanilla beans in this
country. Why the hell would you waste the second most expensive flavoring
in the world (behind saffron) to create a pure vanillin solution which
can easily be made from other, dirt-cheap sources? Similarly with
"crystal vanilla" - sure, I agree that someone might be making pure
crystalline vanillin from actual beans. But you can also make it
from artificial sources, and it's probably a lot cheaper and the same
quality.
As for what Mexican labels say - hell, if you could believe the labels,
we wouldn't be having this discussion! Some of them I saw when I was in
Mexico last (about two weeks ago) were labeled "PURE MEXICAN VANILLA
EXTRACT" and then listed as their ingredients "vanillin, corn syrup,
flavorings..." Others didn't even try to be partly honest. One store
I found in Mazatlan in the Zona Dorada was devoted entirely to vanilla,
and I was impressed by them. They had two shelves set aside for lots
and lots of the major tourist brands of vanilla extract, with a big
cardboard sign saying "THESE ARE ALL *ARTIFICIAL* VANILLA!" Alas, the
store was closed that day and all I could do was admire the display
through the window. But several were bottles that claim pure vanilla
in the ingredients, and the store sold a variety of other extracts, not
just a single brand, as "pure", so I see no reason to distrust their
assessment. As Ms. Rain has said in her book and brochure, if you see
vanilla extract in Mexico sold for less than it would be in the US,
it's most probably artificial. The real stuff is MORE expensive there.
If it is a lot cheaper than here, then there isn't any doubt at all.
>I think that much of the catalog diatribe below attempts to compare the
>brands mentioned with synthetic vanillin products which is an entirly
>differant story. I also ask myself... why would the Mexican's grow
>so many inferior beans ?
Mexico doesn't grow inferior beans, and I never said it did!
The Mexican vanilla bean production is not enough to meet the demand
for beans, so relatively little is available to be turned into extract
in Mexico - and Mexican labeling laws are enforced there like jaywalking
laws are enforced here. So anyone can put some brown sludge in a bottle
and sell it as Pure Mexican Vanilla to unsuspecting Gringos, as long as
the sludge tastes something like vanilla. That's why so many were laced
with the rat-poison coumarin until recently, when word got out. Now
lots of them say "Absolutely no coumarin!" as if coumarin was some sort
of natural impurity that they went to some trouble to remove!
I'm going to retain the original post so people can see what you were
responding to, and what it was that I said. As an aside, I think it
is very interesting that you'd respond to a phrase like
>: quality, cheapest grade of bean, natch.) If you have any Durkee or
>: McCormick's or even Williams-Sonoma extract, read the ingredients:
>: Sugar or corn syrup, and 35% alcohol. And there is no legal limit to
with
>McCormick's has any sugar in it. The last time I saw a McCormick's
>bottle it said 5% and all the Mexican product I have had said 10%.
I mean, here you have me saying something about an easily checked label
available in any supermarket in the US, and you "correct" me with your
nonsense WITHOUT EVEN TAKING A MOMENT TO GO LOOK AT A LABEL TO CHECK YOUR
FACTS! Clearly, much of your attack on my post has about the same level
of validity, both in terms of your understanding of vanilla extracts
and of your understanding of what it is that I said in my post.
Dan Schwarcz
Original post follows:
--------------------------
>Dan Schwarcz (Dan_Sc...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
>: No, this is simply incorrect. There is no "other bean" involved, just
>: simple artificial vanilla flavoring produced from coal tar and wood
>: effluents. Sometimes a toxic chemical, coumarin, is added to enhance
>: the flavor. Bottles labeled "pure vanilla extract" and "guaranteed
>: highest purity" and the like are just as likely to be artificial as
>: any other, in Mexico.
>
>: While there I also was amused to see wildly innacurate information
>: written on the bottles, such as a detailed explanation of the "crystal
>: vanilla" and the "brown vanilla extract" and so on, all made up by the
>: people who were mislabeling their (dirt-cheap) artificial vanilla.
>
>: Nielsen-Massey is a reputable source for pure vanilla extract; so was
>: Patricia Rain last I checked, but she told me she's getting out of the
>: retail sale business (she sees it as a potential conflict of interest,
>: since she's becoming an industry spokesperson.) I know that the King
>: Arthur Baker's Catalog sells their extracts, although not all of them.
>: (Check out 800 information for the number.)
>
>: The original poster believed that Mexican vanilla is very different from
>: "normal" vanilla we get here. This is also incorrect; the only *really*
>: different vanilla is the Tahitian vanilla bean, which is a mutation of
>: the vanilla bean grown in Madagascar and Mexico, and is now a different
>: species. It has a milder, fruitier taste that I find absolutely wonderful
>: added to fruit salads (especially in a dressing made from fresh-squeezed
>: orange juice and sugar.) Mexican and Madagascar vanillas are the same
>: bean, but of course subtle differences will exist.
>
>: One thing that amazed me, and *does* make a huge difference: to make
>: vanilla extract, 44% alcohol is used. The US FDA calls for 35% alcohol
>: as a minimum for anything labeled "Pure Vanilla Extract", so most
>: commercial suppliers make it at 44%, DILUTE IT WITH WATER BY 1/5 to
>: get the minimum 35% number, and then since it's too weak they add sugar
>: or corn syrup to fortify the taste!!! (And they also use the lowest
>: quality, cheapest grade of bean, natch.) If you have any Durkee or
>: McCormick's or even Williams-Sonoma extract, read the ingredients:
>: Sugar or corn syrup, and 35% alcohol. And there is no legal limit to
>: how much sugar is allowed - up to 60% has been added to some brands.
>
>: Nielsen-Massey's vanilla extract is undiluted and pure, and they use
>: high-quality beans. The taste is dramatically better than the junk
>: most companies sell, and well worth checking out.
>
>: Dan Schwarcz
>
Richard Thead
: Folks... much of the information contained in the post below is vastly
: motive involved, perhaps the writer has some connection with Nielson-Massey...
: whoever they are... and is propagating a scare campaign. I have rarely
: ever seen such a warped description of what is and is not.
: Dan Schwarcz (Dan_Sc...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: : Nielsen-Massey's vanilla extract is undiluted and pure, and they use
: : high-quality beans. The taste is dramatically better than the junk
: : most companies sell, and well worth checking out.
Kurt,
Those of us who know Dan know what you wrote above is a pile of crap.
There's no "alterior motive" (Kurt's spelling) or "scare campaign."
You must be a very paranoid person.
Rick
--
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Richard Thead | Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate |
| S/W Eng. Specialist | things -- Dan Quayle |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
Dan Schwarcz
>inaccurate. I get the distinct impression that there is an alterior
>motive involved, perhaps the writer has some connection with Nielson-Massey...
>whoever they are... and is propagating a scare campaign. I have rarely
>ever seen such a warped description of what is and is not.
The post he's referring to is mine. I wrote an initial response to this
denounciation yesterday, and I urge anyone who wishes to know about
vanilla to read it. Today I want to quote from The Vanilla Cookbook,
by Patricia Rain, written in 1986 (a new book is in the works.)
If you can't find it in a bookstore, copies are available from the
author, who also runs a "vanilla hotline". I don't have the number
handy, but her address is 116 Forest Ave., Santa Cruz, Ca 95062.
The number is not an 800 number, and I think it's listed.
From page 7:
"The vanillin produced in the vanilla bean is also found naturally in a
few other plants. The ponderosa pine and some other coniferous trees
contain vanillin in the bark, and vanillin can also be found in the sapwood
of firs, and from lignin, removed from wood pulp in the process of paper
making. Vanillin is only one of the more than 150 organic chemical
components that make up the fragrance and flavor of vanilla, and therefore
the vanillin from the conifer and its byproducts can only partially emulate
the taste of true vanilla.
"Another vanilla-like substance comes from coumarin. Deer's Tongue, also
known as 'wild vanilla' and 'vanilla leaf', is a perenial plant native to
North America. It has a strong vanilla odor which is largely attributed
to coumarin which forms crystals on the upper side of the leaves. Deer's
Tongue was used to scent tobacco, and as a medicinal. Sweet clover and
woodruff also contain coumarin and have a somewhat vanilla-like odor.
"Probably the largest source of natural coumarin comes from the tonka bean,
the fruit of a forest tree native to Brazil and British Guiana (Dipteryx
odorata) and known in Latin America as Rumara. Coumarin is often used as
a substitute for vanilla in perfumery, to disguise the taste of medicines,
and also as a substitute for vanilla extract. In Holland the fatty
substance of the beans has been sold as Tonquin Butter.
"Coumarin has a medicinal component, dicumarol, an anticoagulant used in
blood-thinning medicines. Dicumarol is closely related to the chemical
Warfarin, used in rat poisons as it causes internal hemorrhaging. It is
also narcotic and can cause liver and kidney damage or paralyze the heart
if used in large doses. The FDA banned coumarin's use in food in the
United States in 1954. It is used in Mexico, however, as a major ingredient
in the inexpensive "vanillas" sold throughout the country. Added to
natural vanilla or vanillin, coumarin enhances the flavor which, along
with the low cost, makes it appealing to unsuspecting tourists seeking
the famed Mexican vanilla."
From page 17:
"Vanillin is chemically pure, but the flavor doesn't come close to matching
the flavor of true vanilla extract. This is in part because vanillin is
only one component of the flavors of vanilla, or about 30% of the taste.
Piperonal, for instance, is a crucial constituent for the unique perfume
and flavor of vanilla, but it is not part of vanillin."
Also from page 17:
"Mexico is not producing enough vanilla for its own internal use today,
so synthetics abound throughout the country. Because of the reputation
for having the best vanilla anywhere, the manufacturers of synthetics
use this to their advantage.
"Mexico does not have the same labeling laws as in the United States.
Virtually anything can be written on the labels. My mother returned
from Mexico recently with a "vanilla" product manufactured in Guadalajara.
The copy tells about how Mexican vanilla is un-excelled throughout the
world for quality, taste, and fragrance. The two-bottle packet contains
one bottle of "red vanilla" and one of "cristal vanilla". The red
vanilla is supposedly from the whole bean and the "cristal vanilla" is made
from the juices pressed from the bean so that puddings and ice creams
won't be discolored - or so the label tells us.
"My mother had in fact purchased a synthetic VANILLIN made from wood
pulp effluent, and possibly with coumarin as a booster. The "cristal
vanilla" was pure vanillin. Nothing on any of the labels gave an
indication that the product was synthetic. Unfortunately, this is true
with much "vanilla" from Mexico.
"There are a few fews to determine if the vanilla in question is pure or
synthetic. The major determinant is whether or not the product contains
alcohol. If it is pure vanilla extract it will be high in alcohol
content. Most synthetics contain no alcohol; a few contain 2% alcohol...
"...Determining pure vanilla by color or smell alone is difficult for the
inexperienced buyer... the smell of vanillin is quite strong but also
very 'familiar'. The pure extract will have a more subtle smell."
There's a lot more, but I have to get on with my life. Suffice it to say
that I am not propagating a scare campaign with an "alterior" motive,
just making public a scandalous rip-off that victimizes many people.
Dan Schwarcz
Anne Bourget
: Folks... much of the information contained in the post below is vastly
: motive involved, perhaps the writer has some connection with Nielson-Massey...
: whoever they are... and is propagating a scare campaign. I have rarely
: ever seen such a warped description of what is and is not.
snip, snip...with Dan Schwarcz's highly accurate posting deleted
for brevity.
I think it is Mr. Rieder who is living in dreamland. The Mexican vanilla
bean is highly prized and from it one can produce an excellent vanilla
extract. Many have long regarded Mexican vanilla to be the finest in the
world. But this world is changing. Many of the fields previously devoted
to the cultivation of vanilla have been taken over by citrus growers or
land developers. It is not an easy task to find pure vanilla extract in
Mexico. It *is* easy to find bottles of a liquid labeled pure vanilla
extract and very reasonably priced though. Buyer beware. A producer can put
anything in that bottle and call it anything they want to.
Patricia Rain (a woman who lives in Santa Cruz, California) produces her
own vanilla extracts. And this woman knows what she is doing. She has
formed trusting relationships with growers of the Mexican vanilla bean.
As well as Madagascar Bourbon and Tahitian vanillas. Everything I have
bought from Patricia has been of very high quality. As have those of
Nielsen-Massey.
Anne Bourget
Sandy Fifer
Dan Schwarcz <Dan_Sc...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>Thank you, Anne. And now let's see if we can't inject some FOOD
>into the discussion. For the following, it will help GREATLY if
>you have a top-quality vanilla extract such as Patricia Rain's,
>Nielsen-Massey's, or others that have 44% alcohol and no sugar
>or corn syrup.
I looked at the Nielsen-Massey vanillas--Mexican and bourbon--in my
supermarket and they both listed sugar (and water and alcohol), and I
think they also were only 35%. Do you really have a bottle that says
44% and doesn't have sugar?
Sandy
sa...@halcyon.com
Anne Bourget
: In article <43kk77$2...@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
: Sandy
: sa...@halcyon.com
Yes, I do. Patricia Rain's vanilla extracts contain no sugar,
caramel, or artificial color. And I will quote from Ms. Rain's
flyer:
"My extracts contain 44% alcohol, the amount necessary for extracting the
best flavor from the beans. The result is a clean, fresh product with a
consistently "true" flavor.
My extracts are superior to other brands because most commercial vanillas
are made from poor-grade beans, then are watered to meet the FDA minimum
rquirement of 35% alcohol. Sugar is frequently added to cover the sharp,
undefined flavor. There are no FDA regulations on sugar, caramel, and
artificial colors other than declaring them on the label. As a result,
sugar content may run as high as 40%."
You can contact Patricia by writing or calling:
Patricia Rain
116 Forest Avenue
Santa Cruz, CA 95062
408 457-0902
Two other vanilla's that contain no sugar:
Dittmans' Pure bourbon Vanilla Extract
"Old Fashioned Drug Store Style"
Made from select Bourbon Vanilla Beans,
Alcohol, and Water
R.C. Dittman Co,
Paso Robles, CA 93446
and
Drager's Vanilla 44% alcohol
1010 University Drive
Menlo Park, CA
I am wondering if Drager's purchases vanilla extracts from Patricia Rain
and simply sticks their own label on the bottles. Their Bourbon vanilla
smells and tastes identical to Patricia's *and* the bottles are
identical. The only thing different seems to be the paper label.
At Drager's I paid $5.99 for 4 oz.; Patricia sells her 4 oz.
bottle for $4.50. Whatever, I applaud Drager's for recognizing
the locally produced extracts of Ms. Rain's and selling them.
As I suspect that to be the case.
Anne
P.S. You are correct about Nielsen's containing sugar, however, I still
think that they make a very good product.
Dan Schwarcz
In article <43jtka$a...@buffnet2.buffnet.net>, kri...@buffnet.net says...
> Funny thing... before going to Papantla, I also read about all the
> land development which was squeezing vanilla bean culture in the area,
> and now you say it's citrus groves too. Well, if we go there... we
> should be able to see it, wouldn't you agree ? Papantla as I saw it,
> is a very rural backward region. Standing on high ground... very little
> looks heavily cultivated and surely not developed. If they did it all
> in the last few years... during economic depression... amazing !
So, wait. You're saying "we should be able to see it", and then you admit
that you haven't been there in YEARS? So on the one hand you've got several
printed accounts of something happening, and on the other there's you with
your visit to the area years ago and your assumption that things couldn't
have changed much, and you consider this a worthwhile argument? Amazing.
I don't know whether vanilla farming is under pressure from development
or not, but I *do* know that your credibility sinks further every time
you try to make a point. Anyone who can make claims based on pure
supposition and insist that they're valid arguments against reports that
he admits having read is a few logs short of a fire, logic-wise.
> I appreciated the post from Jon, who recommended the Milwaukee's Spice
> House. If I cannot maintain a supply from Mexico, then will check out
> that source.
I'll list several more at the end of this post. People who don't want to
read me pointing out what a fool this guy is, just jump to the end.
> Received two lenghty emails from Dan Schwarcz; the first showed up as
> a post here, the second never made it to my newsreader. The later one
I sent copies of my posts as a courtesy, so you'd know they were there.
It's easy to miss posts in such a high-volume newsgroup (in fact, I
stumbled across your response days later.)
> is mostly quotations from the Rain book. Perhaps you and Dan and a few
Well, you called me a liar and accused me of making stuff up for an
"alterior" motive. The sections I quoted were specific factual statements
that backed up the points you accused me of inventing. Seems to me that
you'd be addressing the points themselves, instead of dismissing it as
"mostly quotations from the Rain book."
> others who are reliant on that book are missing the whole truth.
Ah. "The whole truth" would be those beliefs you have as a result of
a visit to Mexico and discussions with your friend?
> Could have made it clearer that I bought my Mexican Vanilla at a grocery
> store... away from the well worn tourist track. Most of these are more
> like poorly lit food warehouses and not nearly as hospitable as our
> supermarkets. Most of the Mexican populous... poor as they are... uses
> cheap vanillin which I would see in liter bottles for about US $1. I
> agree with Dan on that when he says it's US $4 per gallon. Right next
> to it I would find much smaller bottles (the one that's left is 230 ml)
> clearly labled Vainilla de Papantla. My friends assured me that this is
> the "right stuff". These always had the name of a producer and the
Your arrogance is absolutely astonishing. Someone asked about sources for
Mexican vanilla, and I wrote to warn that most of the extract that's sold
to US tourists in Mexico is artificial, and that reliable US importers and
producers are a safer bet for Mexican extract. You call me a liar who
maybe works for one of these producers, and talk about how vanillin is
the only significant flavoring in vanilla, and how dissolving crystalline
vanillin in alcohol & water is a legitimate way of producing vanilla
extract, and "correct" the information I gave about fraud in the Mexican
vanilla extracts sold to tourists. Now it turns out that you bought YOUR
extract in an out-of-the-way poorly-lit warehouse with a local friend -
the son of a vanilla farmer? - assuring you that the bottle you were
buying was legitimate. And on the basis of this, you declare that my
warnings were:
>vastly
>inaccurate. I get the distinct impression that there is an alterior
>motive involved, perhaps the writer has some connection with Nielson-Massey...
>whoever they are... and is propagating a scare campaign. I have rarely
>ever seen such a warped description of what is and is not.
Well, is your friend going to help the rest of the rec.food.cooking
readership avoid getting ripped off? With all the arrogance behind your
posts, it's mind-boggling that you've never even SEEN any of the tourist
vanilla extracts that this thread was talking about, much less compared
it to the real thing!!!
> I didn't and wouldn't go to some trendy vanilla shoppe in the Zona Rosa
> or Zona Something-or-other, that caters to the tourist trade. If there
Dorada. It means "golden", and the golden zone is Mazatlan's major shopping
district, which caters mostly to tourists from Mexico and the US. The
"trendy shop" was the only one where I saw what appeared to be real vanilla
extract sold.
Incredibly enough, since that's where all the Mazatlan hotels and resorts
are, that's the area where tourists are going to spend time. And when they
walk into any market, grocery store, or gift shop they'll see various
vanilla extracts for sale, just like the ones they see at the airport
and hotel shops. And most of that is phoney. Why you wanted to deny this
seemed bizzarre to me before, but now that I know that YOU don't ("and
wouldn't") buy any of those products, it makes a lot more sense. You're
not just an arrogant blowhard, you're an elitist arrogant blowhard. As
far as you're concerned, US tourists who dare to shop where they happen
to be, and don't have your friend to guide them, deserve what they get.
> is a problem with adulteration, and there may very well be... that's where
> you will be sure to find it. Such adulteration may be done not just to
> cut cost... but also to make the product more attractive to some.
Sure. You use artificial vanillin and you want it to taste better, you
add coumarin. The quotes you dismissed specifically discussed the process
and the thinking behind it.
> Ahhh... Tahitian vanilla... is it really vanilla ? Well... maybe.
Ahhh... pulling nonsense out of your ass. Is is really thought?
There are 50 varieties of the vanilla orchid, and only three are used
commercially: two are vanilla planifolia and vanilla tahitensis. The
third, vanilla pompona, is hardier and produces beans faster but of
inferior quality. Vanilla tahitensis *is* "really vanilla".
> I have heard it called tutti-frutti vanilla... lacking in the real
> depth of flavor that Mexican vanillas have... a sort of effeminate
> aroma.
Whatever you've heard about it, it's crystal-clear that you haven't actually
TASTED it. It is fruitier, and has a very complex and rich flavor that
is actually STRONGER than vanilla planifolia. I usually add a teaspoon
of bourbon vanilla extract to a large glass of chocolate milk, but I'd
never add more than 1/4 teaspoon of tahitian vanilla extract to the same
quantity of milk (tahitian vanilla is great with milk that's going on
cereal) because the taste would completely dominate. The fruity, complex
flavor of tahitian vanilla is marvelous on fruit-flavored dishes, giving
them a deep richness that's indescribable. If it was the inferior junk
you believe it to be, it wouldn't sell for a higher price, and it wouldn't
have been popular in France for decades, and it wouldn't be widely used
today (usually mixed with vanilla planifolia) by pastry makers and dessert
chefs in the US.
>The stuff comes from a "RED" bean and gets it's smell from
Well, let's see. I have three beans here, one tahitian, one Mexican,
and one from Madagascar ("bourbon" vanilla.) The Mexican and bourbon
look identical and smell identical, near as I can tell. The Tahitian
is shorter, plumper in the center and tapering to the ends more. It
has a thicker skin and fewer seeds, although I can't tell that by looking
at it here. But what I *can* tell is this: IT'S THE SAME COLOR AS THE
BOURBON AND MEXICAN BEANS (a deep, dark brown.) Or did you put quotes
around the "red" so that you could claim you meant it was red from
embarrassment for not having enough vanillin?
> the high amounts of heliotropin and pipernal in the bean. To each
> his own. If I want perfume... I'll buy perfume.
"If I want perfume, I'll buy perfume."
Amazing. I read it again and again, and I can't stop being amazed.
Tell me, Perfume Boy, have you ever actually COOKED anything? Do you
have any concept of the connection between aroma and taste?
"If I want perfume, I'll buy perfume." There you have it, folks, that's
all I need to point to if anyone still had doubts that Perfume Boy didn't
have a clue and wouldn't know one if it bit his ass.
Aroma is the major component to taste. People who lose their sense of
smell find that they can't taste most foods at all... the tongue doesn't
do the job by itself, only handles the strongest senses. And both of
those compounds are present in vanilla planifolia as well, just in
different ratios than in vanilla tahitensis. With a lower vanillin
content and different ratios of the 160 compounds that make up the
flavor of BOTH vanillas, the tahitian will have a different taste.
But only a fool would dismiss it out of hand simply because it had a
strong aroma!
> Bourbon Vanilla has long had a reputation of having the "tonka like"
What, like the trucks?
> characteristic... right in the bean... and hence very aromatic. I
Bourbon vanilla, like Mexican vanilla and all other farm products, has
a variation in quality. Some is excellent, some is good, some is okay,
some is not good, some is terrible. The best of the Bourbon vanilla is
going to be better than the worst of the Mexican vanilla, and vice versa.
There are slight and subtle differences between the identical plant
grown in Mexico vs. Madagascar and other places, but except for Bali
(which is supposed to produce brittle, poor-quality vanilla that's only
used for inexpensive extracts) the differences between them are nominal.
A high-quality source of bourbon vanilla extract will give you a delicious,
wonderful taste. A Mexican vanilla made from the bottom of the barrel will
not taste all that good, no matter where it was bought. And I can
guarantee you that EVERY bean is going to be sold, with the good ones
commanding a high price and the worst ones being bought at a bargain.
> have no direct info that there in coumerin in there, but Bourbon
> extract has not been able to hold a candle to the Mexican in spite
Did you even *look* at the text I quoted, which explained the sources
of coumarin and other chemicals in natural and artificial sources?
Coumarin is NOT found in natural vanilla, whether the plant grows in
Mexico or elsewhere. It's added to extracts by ruthless processors to
boost the flavor of their inferior or artificial product.
> of this "heavenly" aroma. I have been told here in these posts that
> coumerin is a cheap substitute for vanillin in perfumery. Well...
> coumerin has been heavily used, probably before vanillin and was
> understood, characterized and artificially synthasized long before
> vanillin. It's just another ingrediant in perfumery and flavoring.
Is there a point you think you're making here? Or is this just noise?
> What Dan needs is to broaden his horizon by reading more than the
> "Vanilla Cookbook"... perhaps starting with the "Merck Index" where
> he will see that ticture of vanilla and tincture of vanillin are
> perfectly valid terminology. He would also learn than vanillin
Nice try, Perfume Boy, but I never said they weren't. The "Merck Index"
would be useful if I had argued about the definition of 'tincture', but
in fact what you said was:
>>>Vanilla as used in the kitchen could well be called tincture of vanillin.
>>>Either the natural or synthetic could rightfully be called by that name.
and I responded that:
>>Vanilla extract that I use is *not* "tincture of vanillin", and it has
>>a very different character than pure vanillin. There are something like
>>60 flavors that make up natural vanilla (I'm going from memory, the book
>>is at home, but I think it said 62) and vanillin, while dominant (though
>>much less so in Tahitian vanilla) is *not* the only significant one.
So "tincture of vanillin = vanilla extract" was your claim, and that *is*
total nonsense. As it turns out, there are 160 chemicals that make up the
flavor, with vanillin accounting for about 30% of the taste. Tincture of
vanillin would not taste anything like real vanilla extract.
> and coumerin both have similar (same order of magnitude) low levels
> of of toxicity in mammals. One would need to consume 100,000 times
> more that their stomach could tolerate in order to ingest a lethal dose.
later you said:
> Ohhh... and all that tripe about Dicoumerins, Warferin, rat poison ??
> They are related... at the molecular level only... not at all the
> same thing and irrelevant to this discussion...just blatherings !
I'm not qualified to judge whether coumarin is toxic, and whether the claim
that it's closely related to warfarin and dicoumerins have any relationship
to their properties. What I have to rely on is other people to make that
determination. Now, let's see: On the one hand we have Patricia Rain, who
lectures internationally on vanilla and has written several books. And the
USFDA, which banned coumarin from foods in 1954. And the LA Times, which
had an expose about Mexican vanilla and coumarin a little while ago.
On the other hand, there's your undocumented opinions, based on a visit
to Mexico and a glance at the "Merck Index". If a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing, you're a freakin' menace!!!
> And what's all that nonsence about the strength of the alcohol in
> an extract... that can be adjusted before or after the extraction
> to whatever is optimal and if the FDA requires a minimum, that's
> probably to prevent spoilage. All irrelevant to quality.
Optimal is 49% extraction, some of which evaporates to leave 44%.
The quality of a 35% vs. a 44% solution is mostly determined by the
quality of the beans, but it's *also* affected by the concentration
of alcohol, which affects the concentration of vanilla exctractives.
More important, the COST is affected by the dilution of a full-strength
44% extract with 20% water - although some producers do use 35% all along.
And what is your basis - as if you needed a basis for any of your
other claims! - for saying that the FDA minimum is to prevent spoilage?
Do you have any source or evidence of this at all, other than your
fevered imagination? When the FDA says that whole milk must have 4%
fat, is that a spoilage standard? How about when they define other
minimums and maximums in other foods?
> I do suspect that there may be some turmoil right now in the
> importation of Mexican extracts because of NAFTA. Mexicans have
The coumarin warnings in Patricia Rain's book - including the story of how
her own mother got ripped off - date back to at least 1984, when the edition
I have was published. Way before NAFTA.
> been loose with standards... they are just 50 years behind us in
> that area... not all crooks.
Never said they were "all crooks." But anyone with sense would want to
buy where there ARE standards. Maybe you should stick your nose out of
your "Merck Index" and read Sinclair's "The Jungle", Perfume Boy.
> Heck... i get ripped off at the local
> supermarket regularly. Some of the stuff in this thread struck
I'm sure it's your attitude, and your pig-headed ignorance. I've almost
never been ripped off at a supermarket.
> me as hucksterism and it still does. If you want good vanilla...
> buy only from.... really !
Of course, I never said any such thing. What I *did* say, in partial
response to someone else who had recommended Nielsen-Massey, was:
>: Nielsen-Massey's vanilla extract is undiluted and pure, and they use
>: high-quality beans. The taste is dramatically better than the junk
>: most companies sell, and well worth checking out.
Now, since then I've learned that Nielsen Massey sells several grades of
extract, depending on the market; why have 44% concentration and be at
a competitive disadvantage against much cheaper diluted produts? But at
every concentration, they use high quality beans and have a good product.
Other vanilla extract sources:
The King Arthur Baker's Catalogue - excellent catalog for lots of other
things too; I'm putting an order in today for arborio rice and their
winter white wheat. They sell vanilla extracts and powdered vanilla
from Nielsen-massey and Scott's Pure Vanilla Specialists of Mass, and
other sources from time to time.
(800) 827-6836
Dean & DeLuca - I don't have their number handy, but (800) 555-1212 will
give it to you. They sell all kinds of gourmet products by mail, and
that includes some excellent balsamic vinegars.
Patricia Rain - This is the extract that I have at home; as a matter of
fact, I checked last night and I don't have any Nielsen Massey in my
kitchen at all! (Remember, I was accused of being their agent.)
She sells beans and extracts, including tahitian, of great quality at
what I consider very reasonable prices. Call (408) 457-0902 (Calif. time)
or write for a brochure (which is very informative, by the way.):
Patricia Rain, P.O.Box 3206,
Santa Cruz, California, 95063
Cook's Flavoring Company is another gourmet vanilla source, available in
200 Sherwood Road some gourmet stores or directly from the company.
Paso Robles, CA 93446
Tahitian Import/Export, Inc. These guys are credited with introducing
PO Box 35327 Tahitian vanilla into the US market, and
Los Angeles, CA 90035 educating Americans about its uses.
There are others, of course, but I don't have sources handy. Try small
quantities of different ones, you'll be amazed at the range of flavors.
The best way to taste vanilla is to put a few drops in a cube of sugar
or a teaspoon in a cup of milk.
Dan Schwarcz
Civetta
Don't forget Watkins....they were Vanilla before vanilla was cool. <g>
Carol Ustico, Watkins Ind. Rep.
Gourmet spices, extracts and seasonings.
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Free mail-order catalog upon request.