Coq au vin: Skinless??? And Kosher???
Higgins
perfect dish because I can make it a day or two in advance. But I
think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and falling
off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is
there any reason this is a bad idea??
Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
from a kosher butcher. But, of course, a key element of coq au vin is
bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter and
bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
Thanks
Margaret Suran
It's not just meat from a kosher place. It is the whole dinner that
would have to be carefully planned.
There may not be anything dairy served, such as butter on the
vegetables, or onions caramelized in butter. There may not be shrimps
or other seafood as appetizers or hors d'oeuvres and as you know
already, no bacon or other forbidden meat in the coq au vin.
The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be
butter, milk, cream or cheese as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or
whipped cream with dessert, either.
If you want your kosher friend to partake of the dinner, the best would
be to have her tell you what you may and may not do and serve.
I am Jewish, but I don't even try to invite my kosher friends to a meat
meal in my house. A dairy meal, such as blitzes or fruit dumplings or
other dishes like that, yes, but these are meals that are mainly served
in summer.
Good luck. I hope that you can work it out.
Margaret
PENMART01
Most stupidmarkets sell some form of fercocktah kosher bacon... were it me I
simply add a few small drops liquid smoke. Anyway, coq au vin for 17 is a huge
undertaking, requiring a minimum of 20 pounds of fowl... but then this dish is
always a risk, especially if you don't know your guests tastes very well...
some folks love coq au vin, while many others detest stewed fowl, especially if
it's purple. I'd not choose to serve coq au vin for a new year's dinner,
especially not to guests whose tastes I don't know... you're liable to find
yourself eating coq all week.
AUTHENTIC COQ AU VIN
A true coq au vin is made with the master of the farmyard, a rooster. If you
can't find such a beast, use a good-size roasting chicken, and reduce the
cooking time (cook it for about one hour, or until the meat is tender and
cooked but not falling from the bone).
2 tablespoons unsalted butter
One 7-8 pound rooster ( 3 and one half to 4 pound stewing hen or roasting
chicken), cut in serving pieces, with giblets
One half cup cup calvados, brandy, poire william or other liqueur (if using a
chicken, reduce the amount of liqueur to one-quarter cup)
12 ounces slab bacon, rind removed and cut into 1-inch chunks (use 8 ounces if
cooking a chicken)
1 slice air-cured ham, diced
Sea Salt and freshly ground black pepper
1 bottle hearty red wine
One bouquet garni (thyme, bay, parsley wrapped together)
2 cloves garlic, green germ removed
2 cups chicken stock
For the garnish:
1 tablespoon unsalted butter
1 pound mushrooms, cleaned and trimmed
Sea salt and freshly ground black pepper
To thicken the sauce:
2 tablespoons unsalted butter
3 tablespoons all-purpose flour
Melt the butter in a large, heavy stockpot over medium heat. When the butter is
hot, brown the rooster on all sides, doing so in two batches if necessary.
Standing back and making sure your hair is tied back and your clothes are not
over the heat, add the liqueur, then flame it by lighting a match and holding
it just above the pot. The liqueur will catch fire and flames will leap into
the air and burn out within 1 minute.
Remove the chicken from the pan and add the bacon. Brown it on all sides. While
the bacon is browning, mince the ham with the liver and the gizzard. When the
bacon is browned, add the chicken back to the pan and season with salt and
pepper. Pour the wine over all. Stir in the ham and the giblets, add the
bouquet garni and the garlic, and pour in just enough chicken stock to cover
the chicken. Bring the liquid to a boil, reduce the heat so it is simmering,
cover and cook until the chicken is tender but not falling from the bone (1-1/2
hours for a rooster; about 1 hour for chicken).
Make the garnish:
While the rooster is cooking, heat the butter for the mushrooms over medium
heat. When it is foaming, add the mushrooms and cook, stirring frequently,
until the mushrooms are tender and their juices have evaporated, 5 to 7
minutes. Season lightly, remove from the heat and reserve.
Make the sauce:
Blend the butter and flour in a small bowl to a homogeneous paste. When the
chicken is cooked, about 1/4 cup of the cooking juices into the flour and
butter mixture, then pour that mixture into the pan holding the chicken. Stir
it in and let it cook, stirring, until the sauce is thickened. Taste for
seasoning and remove from the heat. Let the dish sit at least 8 hours, or
overnight, before serving.
Serves 6 to 8 (if using a rooster); serves 4 to 6 (if using a chicken).
Letter from France
Susan Herrmann Loomis
---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Julia Altshuler
from Joy of Cooking minus the salt pork. I use vegetable oil to brown
the chicken pieces instead. I've made it with both skinless and with-
skin chicken. The with-skin version is far better. The fat in the skin
adds flavor. If the skin is unattractive, just remove it before
serving. Also, while the recipe calls for a broiler or roasting
chicken, I buy legs and thighs and use them (since no one in my
household likes the white meat that much) so I see no problem with your
plan.
I'll leave how you entertain your friends up to you, but will add this:
I wouldn't bother making a separate dish for one person if I were
entertaining 17. I'd just buy kosher chicken for everyone and make the
pork free product for all in one big pot. The flavor won't be perfectly
authentic, but it will be very good. I never mind the time it takes to
cook something separately for one person, but I find the refrigerator
space, keeping all separate, telling the guests "oh wait, that's for Mr.
Cohen over there" (which leads to noticing if Mr. Cohen has eaten his
whole portion and not being able to tell him to help himself to more),
all that's a pain in the neck when I'm busy trying to entertain a house
full of guests. Cooking is a pleasure, but organizing and singling
people out isn't. Whenever I have vegetarian guests, I just make plenty
of the vegetarian dishes that they and everyone else can eat. I apply
the same philosophy to heart healthy and other special diets. Much
easier that way.
--Lia
Higgins wrote:
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a
> perfect dish because I can make it a day or two in advance. But I
> think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and falling
> off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is
> there any reason this is a bad idea?
>
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
> from a kosher butcher. But, of course, a key element of coq au vin is
> bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter and
> bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor?
>
> Thanks
Margaret Suran
Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a
diabetic or a vegetarian is a cinch.
It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of
what is involved. Buying meat from a kosher butcher is the very least.
If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock or a chicken
flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher,
too. I cannot believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not
care about the other foods or ingredients being served.
Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host
to get meat especially for her and there may be a small misunderstanding.
Margaret
PENMART01
It's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home... not even a
glass of water and a toothpic.
Anyone who claims to keep kosher but then regularly accepts invitations to eat
in non-kosher homes is not practicing any kind of kosher other than that they
refrian from partaking of certain foods such as pork and shellfish in their own
home and in company... naturally eating same at Chinese restaurants clear
across town is always cause for celebration.
I'm positive that a guest such as described herein will be happy as the
proverbial clam if the bacon is omitted, because were such a person truly
keeping kosher they'd not eat or drink anything from any non-kosher premise,
therefore they'd never accept the invite. Furthermore, anyone who claims to
prepare kosher food to accommodate a kosher keeping guest in their non-kosher
home is, well how can I put this delicately, full of shit.... the very best
possiblity under said circumstance is kosher-style. To cater to someone who
keeps "kosher-style" makes the host a putz and the guest a schmuck.
Louis Cohen
Kosher butchers may have beef bacon, they will certainly have beef sausages.
Maybe ask the butcher for some beef fat to render in the pan?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"
Bah! Humbug!
"Higgins" <hig...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
news:f99a29d.03122...@posting.google.com...
st...@temple.edu
> Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a
> diabetic or a vegetarian is a cinch.
> It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of
> what is involved. Buying meat from a kosher butcher is the very least.
> If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock or a chicken
> flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher,
> too. I cannot believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not
> care about the other foods or ingredients being served.
> Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host
> to get meat especially for her and there may be a small misunderstanding.
Absolutely. In addition, the pot and other utensiles must not have
been used to cook any dairy products. Ditto for the silverware and
plates that will be used to serve the food.
PENMART01
(Naomi Darvell) writes:
>Margaret Suran wrote:
>
>
>>Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a
>>diabetic or a vegetarian is a cinch.
>>
>>It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of
>>what is involved. Buying meat from a kosher butcher is the very least.
>> If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock or a chicken
>>flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher,
>>too. I cannot believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not
>>care about the other foods or ingredients being served.
>>
>>Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host
>>to get meat especially for her and there may be a small misunderstanding.
>>
>>Margaret
>
>IME, people keep varying levels of kosher. If the person said they would eat
>the chicken as long as it came from a kosher butcher, I believe it's quite
>possible that they'll be able to eat the meal as long as it avoids the
>obvious
>pitfalls like pork, shellfish and mixing meat and making it impossible for
>them
>to avoid dairy products if they are eating meat.
Nonsense... it's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home...
soon as the kosher chicken makes contact with a non-kosher surface it is no
longer kosher... kosher is far more a state of mind than it is any kind of
science... kosher meat prepared in a non-kosher kitchen is still excellent
eating but it is no longer kosher[period]
jmcquown
> Margaret Suran writes:
>
>> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>>> I make a porkless version of coq au vin frequently.
>>> --Lia
>>>
>>>
>>> Higgins wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
>>>> from a kosher butcher.
>>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>> Compared to have a special kosher meal for one guest, cooking for a
>> diabetic or a vegetarian is a cinch.
>>
>> It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure
>> of
>> what is involved. Buying meat from a kosher butcher is the very
>> least.
> It's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home... not
> even a glass of water and a toothpic.
> Sheldon
> ````````````
I'm not Jewish, but I work with a guy named Menasha, who is from Israel, who
keeps absolute Kosher. Sheldon is correct. Menasha will not eat in other
peoples homes. His brother in law was a gentile and when he died, Menasha
wouldn't even have his china in his house. He gave it to another
(Christian) coworker rather than bury it for a ritual 15 years (or something
like that).
This makes me wonder a lot about SamD's post about Christmas/Hanukkah
dinner. Obviously it wasn't Kosher according to the strict definition. But
it sure sounded great!
Jill
Nancy Young
That's pretty much what I didn't understand. Not being Jewish, never
mind kosher, I haven't the vaguest idea how someone keeping kosher
could eat in a non kosher home. I *guarantee* you I have no plates
or pots or utensils, etc., to tell someone it never touched pork or
dairy or whatever.
Just saying, get a kosher chicken, that really doesn't cut it.
Personally, if I kept kosher (not a plan), I would discretely bring
my own meal and utensils, obviously letting the host know. This way,
you get to hang out with friends and no stressful rules for them.
nancy
PENMART01
>Sheldon wrote:
>
>>
>>Nonsense... it's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home...
>>soon as the kosher chicken makes contact with a non-kosher surface it is no
>>longer kosher... kosher is far more a state of mind than it is any kind of
>>science... kosher meat prepared in a non-kosher kitchen is still excellent
>>eating but it is no longer kosher[period]
>>
>
>
>Sheldon, I'm not saying it makes sense, particularly, but some people
>say they are keeping kosher when what they are really doing is just
>avoiding certain foods.
Avoiding? Certain foods? What you wrote is what makes NO sense.
>It's not possible to tell absolutely what is going on with the OPs
>guest but is seems clear that he 1) says he's keeping kosher
>and 2) is willing to eat in someone else's [*non-kosher*] house.
There is absolutely nothing whatsoever kosher about such a person... the OP is
a troll and/or a moron... being in any way supportive makes you a fool.
There is no more being a little pregnant than there is being a little kosher.
Victor Sack
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a
> perfect dish because I can make it a day or two in advance. But I
> think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and falling
> off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is
> there any reason this is a bad idea??
It is a bad idea because a lot of taste is in the skin. If appearance
is so important to you, I'd say you would do better by removing the skin
after cooking. Myself, I wouldn't dream of doing any such thing.
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
> from a kosher butcher. But, of course, a key element of coq au vin is
> bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter and
> bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
Bacon or other pork products are certainly not at all an essential part
of the dish, even in the old, traditional coq au vin rouge version (see
below). It would be certainly very unusual to use pork in a coq au vin
blanc recipe. Personally, I very much prefer the Alsatian coq au
riesling version (also see below).
Here is a red-wine version sans pork products. The recipe is from
Elizabeth David's _French Country Cooking_.
Coq au vin
This is a very old recipe for _Coq au Vin_ and the blood is not in
this case added to the sauce as in latter recipes.
You need a plump tender chicken (it doesn't _have_ to be a cockerel)
weighing about 3 lb when cleaned and trussed. Season the bird inside
and out with salt, pepper and lemon juice; into a deep heavy pan put 3
or 4 oz of butter and brown the chicken all over in it; pour over a
small glass of brandy and set it alight; when the flames have died down,
pour in a whole bottle of good red wine - Mācon, Beaujolais or
Chāteauneuf du Pape. Add the giblets of the bird, cover the pan and
simmer slowly either on top of the stove or in a low oven for about
1 1/2 hours.
In the meantime, prepare 20 or so little onions, browned in butter
and glazed with a little sugar and red wine, and 1/2 lb of mushrooms,
sautéed in butter. A few minutes before the chicken is ready, take out
the giblets and add the onions and mushrooms.
Remove the chicken onto a hot dish and carve it for serving.
The sauce should by this time be sufficiently reduced to need no
thickening, but if it is not add an ounce of butter worked with 3/4 oz
of flour, put the pan on to high flame and let the sauce bubble until it
is thick enough. Pour it over the pieces of chicken, and arrange the
mushrooms and the onions on the top.
And here is a white-wine version based on the recipe found in _Die
Weinstuben des Elsaß_ by Wolfram Siebeck.
Coq au Riesling
1 chicken (ideally cockerel) weighing 1.5 to 2 kg (3.3 to 4.4 lb)
2 cl (0.7 fl. oz) Cognac
1/4 l (1.1 cups) Riesling
50 g (1.8 oz) butter
some oil
1 cup defatted chicken stock
1 bouquet garni
30 g (1.1 oz) shallots, finely chopped
1 dl (0.4 cups) crčme fraīche
150 g (0.7 oz) champignons (button mushrooms), finely chopped
Nutmeg
marjoram
parsley
1 garlic clove
salt and pepper
Joint the chicken and fry the pieces in a mix of butter and oil until
golden brown, add the shallots and fry until golden, too. Skim off the
fat, add Cognac and light it. Pour in the Riesling and the stock. Add
the bouquet garni and cook for 30-40 minutes. Take out the chicken
pieces and reduce the sauce to two-thirds. Add crčme fraīche and heat
through.
Now strain the sauce, work in the butter, add the champignons and cook
for 1 minute.
Serve with noodles.
The Ranger
news:1g6leyu.1aks1r0mxeg8cN%sa...@uni-duesseldorf.de...
[Snip-O'-Matic employed judiciously]
> Coq au Riesling
>
> 1 chicken (ideally cockerel) weighing 3.3 to 4.4 lb
> 2 cl (0.7 fl. oz) Cognac
> 1/4 l (1.1 cups) Riesling
> 50 g (1.8 oz) butter
> some oil
> 1 cup defatted chicken stock
> 1 bouquet garni
> 30 g (1.1 oz) shallots, finely chopped
> 150 g (0.7 oz) champignons (button mushrooms), finely chopped
> Nutmeg
> marjoram
> parsley
> 1 garlic clove
> salt and pepper
>
> Joint the chicken and fry the pieces in a mix of butter and oil
> until golden brown, add the shallots and fry until golden, too.
> Skim off the fat, add Cognac and light it. Pour in the Riesling
> and the stock. Add the bouquet garni and cook for 30-40
> minutes. Take out the chicken pieces and reduce the sauce to
> Now strain the sauce, work in the butter, add the champignons
> and cook for 1 minute.
> Serve with noodles.
Are there any particular brands of cognac and Riesling you'd recommend? My
poor selections of Rieslings so far has left me a little gun-shy; I wasn't
expecting so dry a wine as to pucker my tastebuds all the way down to my
toes. Also, why crème fraîche and not sour creme of yogurt?
The Ranger
Victor Sack
> Victor Sack <sa...@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote
>
> > Coq au Riesling
>
> Are there any particular brands of cognac and Riesling you'd recommend?
I would use any respectable VSOP or even 3-star Cognac and any Alsatian
Riesling I wouldn't mind drinking. Alsatian wines by Hugel or Trimbach
are generally at least acceptable and often good to very good and seem
to be widely avaialble in the US.
> My
> poor selections of Rieslings so far has left me a little gun-shy; I wasn't
> expecting so dry a wine as to pucker my tastebuds all the way down to my
> toes.
Most Alsatian wines are generally as dry as they get, except for the
much rarer _Vendange Tardive_ (many of 'em) and _sélection de grains
nobles_ (all of 'em) wines.
> Also, why crème fraîche and not sour creme of yogurt?
Well, it's a French recipe and crème fraîche is just much more often
used for cooking than sour cream or yoghurt. Besides, crème fraîche is
supposed to be less sour, theoretically at least, so would serve better
to modify the effects of what you perceive as too dry a wine.
Victor
Sheryl Rosen
hig...@dorsai.org wrote on 12/26/03 1:23 PM:
Only your guest knows for sure what they will or will not partake of.
If you want to be sure to prepare a meal they will eat, I suggest you run
down the menu with them prior to the event, and ask if there are any
pitfalls in it for them.
As for what to sub for the bacon in his portion....maybe a bissle pastrami!?
It's got the components of bacon and pancetta....fatty, smoky,
peppery-spicy. In fact, it might work out great for the entire dish. Just
off the top of my head, that's what I came up with. Just make sure it is
really kosher pastrami. The stuff at the Carnegie or Katz's is great, but
only Second Ave's is Kosher.
When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday morning,
the way other moms made bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad
brought home. There are few foods that make me cry for joy...pastrami and
eggs is one of them.
PENMART01
<catm...@optonline.net> writes:
>When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday morning,
>the way other moms made bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad
>brought home. There are few foods that make me cry for joy...pastrami and
>eggs is one of them.
Better than sex!
Almost.
Jack Schidt®
"Sheryl Rosen" <catm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:BC12568E.41922%catm...@optonline.net...
I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's restaurant
in New London used to feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this -
reuben omelet. They also featured pitchers of martinis, but that was for
later in the day ;-P
Jack Colman
Sheryl Rosen
qwe...@mail.monmouth.com wrote on 12/26/03 5:21 PM:
They could have a salad on a paper plate with plastic flatware.
Not much else.
I had a coworker who was Orthodox. When we had department lunches, he would
order a garden salad with oil and vinegar dressing. Wherever we went, that's
what he had. And bread. Butter or not depending on what he brought to eat at
his desk.
Once, I think he had broiled salmon with a baked potato and a salad. but he
asked for it to be served on a paper plate. He had butter on the potato,
because fish can be served with dairy, it's not considered meat, it's
neutral (pareve).
Kosher is like pregnant.
You either are or you aren't.
HOWEVER!...
Many people "Keep" kosher at home, but are more lax about it outside the
home. Personally, that seems hypocritical, but it's not really for me to
say. Especially since I don't even try, at all.
It seems to be the simplest way to do it though. "Keep it" at home, where
you have complete control, and try your best to keep it outside the home,
but with the understanding that you can't always, and compromise only when
you have to, and then, don't stray too far. thus, the OP's friend will eat
kosher chicken at his friend's non-kosher house, cooked in non-kosher pots
in his non-kosher kitchen, off of non-kosher plates. But because the chicken
was slaughtered in accordance with Kosher law, and was properly blessed, and
will not be prepared with dairy or pork, he's got the major points covered.
And he's being a good friend, which also counts for something.
The theory behind not mixing milk and meat in the same meal goes back to the
bible, there is a quote about not drowning the calf in its mother's milk.
However, using separate dishes for milk and meat dishes was a good idea when
dishes were made of wood and houses didnt' have running water--it was
difficult to clean dishes thoroughly enough to be certain all traces of meat
or dairy were removed. In the modern era, the separate dishes and pans is
more out of tradition than necessity. Wash a dish or pan in hot soapy water
and you have no worries about mixing milk and meat, at least not in
practicality.
The orthodox and conservative Jews most likely would not eat at the home of
someone who was not strictly kosher. Reformists, on the other hand, set out
to find a balance between the traditions of the past and the modern way, and
would be more likely to, as I said above, try to observe as much as
possible, and only compromise on minor points.
Sheryl Rosen
darve...@aol.com wrote on 12/26/03 5:21 PM:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Sheldon wrote:
>
>>
>> Nonsense... it's not possible to prepare kosher food in a non-kosher home...
>> soon as the kosher chicken makes contact with a non-kosher surface it is no
>> longer kosher... kosher is far more a state of mind than it is any kind of
>> science... kosher meat prepared in a non-kosher kitchen is still excellent
>> eating but it is no longer kosher[period]
>>
>
>
> Sheldon, I'm not saying it makes sense, particularly, but some people say they
> are keeping kosher when what they are really doing is just avoiding certain
> foods. It's not possible to tell absolutely what is going on with the OPs
> guest
> but is seems clear that he 1) says he's keeping kosher and 2) is willing to
> eat
> in someone else's house. Also, it kind of sounds like he's given few
> instructions beyond buying kosher meat and not using bacon. That's the
> situation the OP is dealing with. It may not really be kosher but it does seem
> to be a lot of people's idea of kosher.
>
And it may be this person's idea of "kosher enough". <shrug>
Not for us to say if it's right or wrong.
Mike Beede
> The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be
> butter, milk, cream or cheese as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or
> whipped cream with dessert, either.
I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in
kosher cooking, but apparently it's more complex than I thought. What
is the justification for "no cream in the coffee?" Just curious.
Mike Beede
Mateo
> I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in
> kosher cooking, but apparently it's more complex than I thought. What
> is the justification for "no cream in the coffee?" Just curious.
Meat and dairy can't be served at the same meal (which, I believe, is
defined as the period between the prayer over bread [HaMotzi], and the
Grace after meals [Birkat HaMazon]). According to various traditions,
there is a waiting period to have dairy after a meat meal. Some observe
1 hour; some go all the way up to 6.
Julia Altshuler
> I thought I knew something about the separation of dairy and meat in
> kosher cooking, but apparently it's more complex than I thought. What
> is the justification for "no cream in the coffee?" Just curious.
I wrote the following back in May when similar questions about keeping
kosher came up.
Let me do a recap of what kosher means from a cooking perspective and a "I'm
having guests; what do I serve" perspective. (I am NOT touching the
religious
aspects.) There may be someone out there who finds new information in this
post.
First of all, we're talking about religious observance. That means that
individual people and whole groups of people will have different
interpretations
of what's right. Furthermore, all those people will be sure that the
next group
over are wrong. So someone will disagree with the details that follow.
I'm not
trying to tell anyone what to eat. I am trying to explain what's going
on when
you see odd words on grocery items, words like "kosher-pareve."
The kosher laws fall into 4 broad categories:
1. kosher animals
2. kosher slaughter of animals
3. kosher combinations of foods
4. the dishes
1. Kosher animals include cattle, goats, sheep, chickens, turkey, salmon.
Kosher animals emphatically do NOT include pigs, rabbits, shrimp, lobsters,
oysters, other shellfish, insects. So anything made from a non-kosher
animal is
considered inappropriate to eat.
2. Whole books are written on the kosher slaughter of animals, but
basically it
means making sure the animal is healthy before slaughter and cutting the
throat
with a sharp knife.
3. Meat products are not combined with milk products. They're not
eaten at the
same meal. Individuals don't eat them within several hours of each other.
They're not eaten off the same plates or cooked in the same pots. So a
hostess
wouldn't serve a cheeseburger or a creamy chicken soup. A guest who keeps
kosher and has just arrived at someone's home might turn down an offer of
cookies and milk for a snack if he's just had meat for lunch. That
doesn't mean
the cookies and milk aren't kosher, just that they're inappropriate for
him at
that moment. An apple (neither meat nor milk) would be a better snack.
4. It isn't enough to avoid eating a non-kosher animal or a non-kosher
combination. How separate is separate, and how clean is clean? If the
dishes
had bacon on them in the morning, you wouldn't just wash the plate and
consider
it O.K. for a kosher meal that afternoon. Keeping kosher extends to keeping
watch over the whole food production process.
It's that 4th consideration where people tend to disagree the most.
Some people
keep kosher at home, but don't care too much about the dishes when they
go out.
So they'll eat a vegetarian meal in a restaurant without worrying about
whether
the restaurant also serves non-kosher meat on those same plates. Others
would
never eat at a non-kosher restaurant.
If you imagine people living out on a farm getting most of their food
products
locally and from scratch, keeping kosher doesn't sound like a big deal. It
means avoiding some recipes and eating 3 meals a day. Most people who have
never kept kosher would find nothing too terribly weird about visiting a
kosher
home and eating kosher meals for a while. Breakfast would still consist of
eggs, cereal, fruit, milk in coffee, butter on toast (a dairy meal). Lunch
would still consist of salad or a cheese sandwich in the summer (dairy)
or maybe
a beef soup in winter (meat). Dinner would be meat, vegetables,
potatoes (no
butter or sour cream on the potatoes). None of that is shockingly unusual.
To answer your specific question about cream or milk in coffee. There's
no problem with it first thing in the morning since breakfast is
presumably a dairy meal. There would be a problem with milk in coffee
after dinner if dinner is a meat meal. There's no reason why the whole
dinner couldn't be dairy (a nice pasta primavera with tomato and cheese
sauce) in which case cream in coffee would be fine.
The word "rationale" in your question is hard to address. As with
anything in a religion, the rationale is that these are the rules of
this religion. You run into something similar when asking what the
rationale is for going to Mass or the prohibition against killing or
stealing or the rationale for giving to charity. Those are the rules
though believers will show great variety in exactly how they observe them.
--Lia
Mike Pearce
news:Pl6Hb.8932$006....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's
restaurant
> in New London used to feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this -
> reuben omelet. They also featured pitchers of martinis, but that was for
> later in the day ;-P
>
If Goldie's were here in New Orleans they wouldn't be waiting until later in
the day for the martinis. One of the benefits of living in a 24 hour city.
<g>
-Mike
Richard Periut
> x-no-archive: yes
> eating that I'm finding it rather bizarre that this is even an argument, at
> least on a food group. About half the people in the suburb where my parents
> lived probably eat more or less that way. Basically they just avoid the major
> no-nos, at least when away from home.
>
>
>
>
>
> Naomi D.
>
And let's not get into Glatt Kosher : )
Richard
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
PENMART01
>>And it may be this person's idea of "kosher enough". <shrug>
>>Not for us to say if it's right or wrong.
>
>
>Oh, I agree. I know so many people who have a "kosher enough" approach to
>eating that I'm finding it rather bizarre that this is even an argument, at
>least on a food group. About half the people in the suburb where my parents
>lived probably eat more or less that way. Basically they just avoid the major
>no-nos, at least when away from home.
Even the most pius cannot be kosher enough... kosher is a mind set... but to
knowingly and purposefully compromise keeping kosher is the classic example of
the ultimate hypocrite... like the proclaimed vegetarian slinking off once or
twice a week for their porterhouse steak fix.
Jack Schidt®
"Mike Pearce" <mpearce...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Rb7Hb.11527$JD6.1216@lakeread04...
Yes, I know. I live near a real city, NYC. To truly take advantage of a 24
hour city, one must stay up the entire 24 hours!
Jack Manhattan.
B-0b1
PENMART01 wrote:
> ````````````
> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
>
The "Tribulation" per se: Has been here since January 12th 1962...where have
YOU been ya dumb-assed SCHLAMIL! "KOSHER" means "BALANCE" as well
as coordinated compatability! It applies to MANY thngs, NOT just FOOD!! Life
without "balance" is a FARCE. Thus our embattled World is indeed a FARCE if
you choose to analyse it sanely! HoyVeh!!! Gevaldt!!!! As P.T Barnham once
said:
"There's a Schmuck born every minute"!! SIC:...when a Piano is pushed off a
rooftop
and falls toward the sidewalk., it's the POOR SCHMUCK it hits..Cappische!! B-0b1
--
"Beaten Paths are for Beaten People". -- Anon.
Mike Pearce
news:BC125CF7.41924%catm...@optonline.net...
> And it may be this person's idea of "kosher enough". <shrug>
> Not for us to say if it's right or wrong.
>
I agree that it is none of our business what an individual chooses for their
diet. I do, however, feel that when they attach a label to that diet it can
become worthy of discussion. I didn't eat any meat, fowl or fish for a
number of years but I did eat dairy products. Although I did describe myself
as a vegetarian for convenience sake at times, I didn't consider myself a
vegetarian. I feel that calling someone with my former diet a vegetarian
lessens the meaning of the term. The word vegetarian in common usage has
become almost meaningless and maybe that's happening to the term kosher. I
know people who refer to themselves as vegetarians who eat fish and soups
made with beef stock, etc. These same people would argue endlessly with me
if I challenged their use of the term. I don't want to turn this into a
discussion of vegetarianism. I'm just using it as an example of what I'm
getting at.
I don't know a lot about kosher practices, but I believe they are well
defined. I don't think that there is any such a thing as "kosher enough." It
either is or it isn't.
Back to Coq au vin for a moment. I've made it once maybe six years ago. I
don't recall the specifics of the recipe, but I remember that it was process
that took at least a couple of days and was a fairly complex. I enjoyed the
hell out of making it. When it was done I tried it and didn't like it one
bit. I brought the whole thing over to my sister's house and gave it to her.
She, her husband and their son told me it was the best thing I'd ever made
for them. To each his own.
-Mike
B-0b1
Julia Altshuler wrote:
Thank you Lia for the very "RATIONAL" explanation. It boils down to
the simplistc statement: that some substances simply do NOT mix when it
comes to proper assimilation of the chemistries involved! It's like a
good Marriage:
Either it is compatible or it is NOT!! So much "sickness" today can be
traced to:
"having bought every FOOD LIE in the book". I've had many clients who've
done
just this and it's taken MONTHS for me to guide them into the land of
Logic as well as
HEAL their "very Painful" bodies and muscles. When success is reached, I
indeed rejoice as
do those who've been "healed" as well as "TAUGHT"..Happiness abounds for
the rest
of their wonderful and NEW lives. "Holistic Alternatives" also apply!
Blessed BE!!
Dr. B-0b1, Ph.D
Jack Schidt®
"B-0b1" <S...@grandecom.net> wrote in message
news:3FED06E6...@grandecom.net...
Are you really Dr. Bronner?? Dilute! Dilute! Ok!
Jack Castile
Mike Pearce
>
> "Mike Pearce" wrote in message
> > If Goldie's were here in New Orleans they wouldn't be waiting until
later
> > in the day for the martinis. One of the benefits of living in a 24 hour
city.
> > <g>
> >
> > -Mike
> >
>
> Yes, I know. I live near a real city, NYC. To truly take advantage of a
24
> hour city, one must stay up the entire 24 hours!
>
> Jack Manhattan.
Though I'm in New Orleans now I'm originally from Boston. Don't give me that
crap about NYC being a "real city". We all know it's just a bunch of people
who don't know their neighbors, think they are better than everyone else and
unfortunately kick the Red Sox asses every year. Not next year though!
-Mike
Mike Pearce
news:20031226224505...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Even the most pius cannot be kosher enough... kosher is a mind set... but
to
> knowingly and purposefully compromise keeping kosher is the classic
example of
> the ultimate hypocrite... like the proclaimed vegetarian slinking off once
or
> twice a week for their porterhouse steak fix.
Jeez, you beat me to it by a few minutes (check out my recent post on the
subject). Of course, you said it much more concisely.
-Mike
B-0b1
Julia Altshuler wrote:
Hi again:...Kosher is kosher is Kosher regardless of the time of day!
coffee with pure chocolate and honey is great,,,no fighting in the
stands,
However no matter what time the day...Coffee and Cream do NOT mix
chemically
in any way shape or form. Neither do Milk and chocolate as choclate has
an acid
that forms an insoluble sbstance with Milk...it's called OXALIC acid and
calcium Oxalate
can and will form Kidney stones as will Cranberry Juice in any form! There
was recently a
breakdown on Cranberries and if you'l notice on the shelves, cranberry is
being mixed with
verything as was Canola Oil a while back. NO-ONE in their right and
"INOEMD" mind
will fall for that kid of "marketing" Rape seed oil is NOT edible no
matter how it is pesented!
cranberris are also ging the same way. Even as JELLY it becomes even more
consentrated!
Such a shame as they DID have an inviting taste...BUT definitely NOT
"KOSHER" per se!
Many such foods exist as do "combinations of some. It has taken me a
lifetime to "sort out" the
many Bu Bu's in eating an healthy repast and NOT getting acid reflux from
same. IBS is also of
this gender...it is a result of incomapatbiities in the GUT...perhaps from
having ignorantly taken "Mineral Oil"
as a baby or many other destructive and IGNORANT siuations while growing
up with parents that
mimicked thier own parent, etc, etc, ad nauseum! OLD habits from OLD timey
Allopathic Nincompoops
have caused and will continue to cause havoc with our children via parents
who learned the WRONG
things from THEIR Parents and Grandparents! ( etc etc etc) This idea can be
applied to MANY situations
as well! Let us hope that through "LISTS" like this one that education
about the most important thing we do
will become a NON problem ASAP. EATING is the KEY to health IF done
properly! If NOT...HoyVeh!!
B-0b1
Mike Pearce
<snip a bunch of stuff I can't follow>
> Many such foods exist as do "combinations of some. It has taken me a
> lifetime to "sort out" the
> many Bu Bu's in eating an healthy repast and NOT getting acid reflux
from
> same.
I'm glad you've sorted out something, but I have no clue what the hell you
are trying to say in your post.
-Mike
Richard Periut
He's a friggin liar; atheist pedophile fat slob! He loves to talk about
all things kosher, and he is as kosher as a Cuban sandwhich ; )
Saerah
>
>
>Higgins wrote:
>> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a
>> perfect dish because I can make it a day or two in advance. But I
>> think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and falling
>> off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is
>> there any reason this is a bad idea??
>>
>> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
>> from a kosher butcher. But, of course, a key element of coq au vin is
>> bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter and
>> bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
>>
>> Thanks
>
>would have to be carefully planned.
>
>There may not be anything dairy served, such as butter on the
>vegetables, or onions caramelized in butter. There may not be shrimps
>or other seafood as appetizers or hors d'oeuvres and as you know
>already, no bacon or other forbidden meat in the coq au vin.
>
>The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be
>butter, milk, cream or cheese as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or
>whipped cream with dessert, either.
>
>be to have her tell you what you may and may not do and serve.
>
>I am Jewish, but I don't even try to invite my kosher friends to a meat
>meal in my house. A dairy meal, such as blitzes or fruit dumplings or
>other dishes like that, yes, but these are meals that are mainly served
>in summer.
>
>Good luck. I hope that you can work it out.
>
if someone was serious about keeping kosher, they wouldnt eat ANYTHING from
a non-kosher kitchen. whats the point of following the laws half-way?
--
Saerah
TANSTAAFL
"We're all one thing, Lieutenant. That's what I've come to realize. Like
cells in a body. 'Cept we can't see the body. The way fish can't see the
ocean. And so we envy each other. Hurt each other. Hate each other. How
silly is that? A heart cell hating a lung cell." - Cassie from THE THREE
Saerah
Sheryl Rosen wrote in message ...
But because the chicken
>was slaughtered in accordance with Kosher law, and was properly blessed
kosher meat is not blessed. this is not part of what is done to make an
animal fit for kosher eating. blessings on food are said beofre eating, and
afterwards, and do not really bles the food per se, but thank god for the
abundance thereof.
Saerah
PENMART01 wrote in message <20031226213605...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
>In article <BC12568E.41922%catm...@optonline.net>, Sheryl Rosen
><catm...@optonline.net> writes:
>
>>When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday
morning,
>>the way other moms made bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad
>>brought home. There are few foods that make me cry for joy...pastrami and
>>eggs is one of them.
>
>Better than sex!
>
>Almost.
>
but not as good as scrambled eggs made with lox and cream cheese (and a
healthy dose of pepper) :>
--
Saerah
TANSTAAFL
"We're all one thing, Lieutenant. That's what I've come to realize. Like
cells in a body. 'Cept we can't see the body. The way fish can't see the
ocean. And so we envy each other. Hurt each other. Hate each other. How
silly is that? A heart cell hating a lung cell." - Cassie from THE THREE
>
>
B-0b1
style..
does this turn you ON...does it make you feel even more inferior to the average
person???
If so..you HAVE succeeded beyond your greatest hopes and desires to be UNCOUTH
to the MAX!! B-0b1
Richard Periut wrote:
--
Richard Periut
BTW, I don't take Sheldon seriously; I love to tick him off.
And I'm not Ricardo, I'm Richard.
TTFN
Richard
Jack Schidt®
ahahahahahaha!!! Sounds like "wait til next year", the old Dodgers' mantra.
To be fair, the real drama of the post season play this year ended with the
NY-Boston series; after that it was just the Yankees and some team from
Florida or wherever (who whooped said pinstripers). I'm looking forward to
next year myself and hope the sox have a decent season; maybe they'll
finally do it. Then again, I'm a 35 year Met fan who's used to rolling his
eyes come September ;-O
Other than that...well....(said in best Brooklyn accent)...come awn, gimme a
friggin' break, ya friggin' bananas or somethin'? OB Food, NY is it. One
can find [your local food specialty here] done expertly, yet can't make the
trip to [your city here] and find reciprocation, aka bagels, pizza,
delicatessens, etc. Sheesh.
Jack Metropolitan
PS The above is yet another Schidty opinion and doesn't reflect the views
of management. The flame of ass-busting was lit in ancient times and should
not be allowed to go out.
Jack Schidt®
I'm tellin' ya, it's him. The soap doctor is back!
11th: Essene, Chinese and other birth control methods must reduce birth of
Easter Isle type overpopulation destroys God's Spaceship Earth!
Warning! Keep out of eyes! Wash out with water! Don't drink soap! Dilute!
Dilute! or Wet Skin Well! OK!
Jack All-One
Nancy Young
>
> "Jack Schidt®" wrote in message
> >
> > Yes, I know. I live near a real city, NYC. To truly take advantage of a
> 24
> > hour city, one must stay up the entire 24 hours!
> >
> > Jack Manhattan.
>
> Though I'm in New Orleans now I'm originally from Boston. Don't give me that
> crap about NYC being a "real city". We all know it's just a bunch of people
> who don't know their neighbors
We know no such thing. It's very much the opposite.
> , think they are better than everyone else and
> unfortunately kick the Red Sox asses every year.
Well, y'all make it so easy.
nancy
Sheryl Rosen
jack-...@snot.net wrote on 12/26/03 9:43 PM:
> I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's restaurant
> in New London used to feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this -
> reuben omelet. They also featured pitchers of martinis, but that was for
> later in the day ;-P
>
> Jack Colman
Yes. My parents LOVED Goldies! In fact, I have photos of us in front of it,
circa...1986, I believe.
When did they go out of business?
Mike Pearce
>
> Then again, I'm a 35 year Met fan who's used to rolling his
> eyes come September ;-O
You get no sympathy from a Sox fan for that. <g>
I was reading about singer from Boston who was at a social event which was
also attended by Ray Knight. Her group of friends wanted to get a picture
with Ray and she insisted that she be the one to take the picture. When
later asked why she was so insistent that she take the picture she said that
it just didn't seem right to be in a photo with Ray Knight since he was the
one who scored when "you know what" rolled through "you know who's" legs.
> Other than that...well....(said in best Brooklyn accent)...come awn,
gimme a
> friggin' break, ya friggin' bananas or somethin'? OB Food, NY is it. One
> can find [your local food specialty here] done expertly, yet can't make
the
> trip to [your city here] and find reciprocation, aka bagels, pizza,
> delicatessens, etc. Sheesh.
New Orleans is a great food city. It is truly difficult to find a bad
restaruant here, but it doesn't have the variety I'm used to coming from
Boston. I still haven't found a decent pizza, forget about Spanish food, and
I wouldn't even consider getting a bagel here. There is some decent Italian
food, but it's not like we have in the north east. The Italian food is
mostly a kind of Italian/Creole mix.
-Mike
PENMART01
writes:
>PENMART01 wrote in message <20031226213605...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
>>In article <BC12568E.41922%catm...@optonline.net>, Sheryl Rosen
>><catm...@optonline.net> writes:
>>
>>>When I was a little girl, my mom would fry up pastrami on a Sunday
>morning,
>>>the way other moms made bacon, to go with our eggs and and the bagels Dad
>>>brought home. There are few foods that make me cry for joy...pastrami and
>>>eggs is one of them.
>>
>>Better than sex!
>>
>>Almost.
>>
>
>but not as good as scrambled eggs made with lox and cream cheese (and a
>healthy dose of pepper) :>
White pepper.
Of course right now I'd much rather pickled lox with a pletzel.
PENMART01
>
>Still, IMO, it is possible to be
>sincere and yet vary on which rules you are going to follow.
Then you readily admit yours, small though it may be, is a prime example of the
criminal mind.
PENMART01
>I don't know a lot about kosher practices, but I believe they are well
>defined. I don't think that there is any such a thing as "kosher enough."
>It either is or it isn't.
"It [kosher] either is or it isn't." is absolutely correct... but to clarify
"kosher enough", one can never be "kosher enough", keeping kosher is an
unattainable ideal... whereas therein lies the entire point of keeping kosher,
a never ending quest for perfection. To claim one is an adherent of kosher
doctrine by simply not eating pork for example is indicative of the acme of
arrogance and utmost ignorance, a disgrace; "a shanda fur die goy"*... the
pinnacle of pinheadedness.
<http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm>*
Higgins
> I'll leave how you entertain your friends up to you, but will add this:
> I wouldn't bother making a separate dish for one person if I were
> entertaining 17. I'd just buy kosher chicken for everyone and make the
> pork free product for all in one big pot. The flavor won't be perfectly
> authentic, but it will be very good. I never mind the time it takes to
> cook something separately for one person, but I find the refrigerator
> space, keeping all separate, telling the guests "oh wait, that's for Mr.
> Cohen over there" (which leads to noticing if Mr. Cohen has eaten his
> whole portion and not being able to tell him to help himself to more),
> all that's a pain in the neck when I'm busy trying to entertain a house
> full of guests. Cooking is a pleasure, but organizing and singling
> people out isn't. Whenever I have vegetarian guests, I just make plenty
> of the vegetarian dishes that they and everyone else can eat. I apply
> the same philosophy to heart healthy and other special diets. Much
> easier that way.
>
> --Lia
The problem there is that kosher chicken for all 17 would really spike
up my food costs because kosher meat is sooo much more expensive. My
habit with friends that keep "kosher" (obviously not too seriously,
since they're willing to dine in my house), is to prepare similar
dishes and point out only to them what they can and can't eat.
And yes, kids, I totally realize that what I'm doing isn't kosher. But
I ask my guests what their standards are and cook to it. I won't go as
far as koshering my kitchen for a guest (no rabbis with blowtorches
handy), but I'll do pretty much whatever THEY ask, including buying
new pots, serving fish, cooking veggie, or buying prepared food from a
kosher joint and serving it in separate containers. This particular
guy tells me that he's happy if I buy kosher meat and cook his meal
separately.
Thanks...
Mike Pearce
> Mike Pearce wrote:
>
> > , think they are better than everyone else and
> > unfortunately kick the Red Sox asses every year.
>
> Well, y'all make it so easy.
>
'04 is the year! <g>
-Mike
Higgins
> It is really complex to prepare a kosher meal when you are not sure of
> what is involved. Buying meat from a kosher butcher is the very least.
> If the meat requires the addition of chicken stock or a chicken
> flavored bouillon cube in the cooking process, both have to be kosher,
> too. I cannot believe that someone would single out kosher meat and not
> care about the other foods or ingredients being served.
>
> Talk to your friend about it. I can't believe that she expects a host
> to get meat especially for her and there may be a small misunderstanding.
>
> Margaret
Right. This guy's eaten at my house 15-20 times over the years. We've
got a good drill down. It's all about HIS standards, not mine. And he
requests that anyhting I add to his pot be either kosher or parve. He
doesn't ask me to get special pots or dishes or utensils (which I
happily would.) I do refuse to blowtorch my oven or rekiln my plates.
Mike Pearce
"Richard Periut" wrote in message news:3FED154C...@njDOTrr.com...
>
> He's a friggin liar; atheist pedophile fat slob! He loves to talk about
> all things kosher, and he is as kosher as a Cuban sandwhich ; )
>
> Richard
Richard:
I'm not going to allow myself to be pulled into the Sheldon bashing. I've
seen that you have been having issues with him lately. Why don't you address
this stuff directly at him if you feel the need to do it at all?
Sheldon has never said one thing to me that has riled me up in the least.
The times we've actually gotten into discussions of any sort they have been
friendly and pleasant. I know he throws insults around, but I just consider
that part of his personality and don't get worked up over them. He's a poser
in the insult department when compared to my golfing buddies. <g>
Are you telling me that a Cuban sandwich is not kosher? <g> I wonder about
maduros fried in lard?
-Mike
Kent H.
up and fill your braising container only to the skin level, not over it.
Cook very slowly in low heat oven until the meat reaches the fall apart
stage.
You can leave out the pork, or bacon ingredient. The dish emerges with a
different taste, but there's nothing wrong with it. We don't always use
bacon or cured pork with Vin Coq[as it's called in our house]
Cheers,
Kent
Sheryl Rosen
mpearce...@cox.net wrote on 12/27/03 9:53 AM:
Add Aaron Boone to the list of names I never wanna hear again....
Bucky Dent
Bill Buckner
Mookie Wilson
Aaron Boone
grrrrrrrrr
Sheryl Rosen
hig...@dorsai.org wrote on 12/27/03 9:53 AM:
then that's all you need to know!
I would either omit the bacon from his coq au vin, or try a slice or two of
pastrami.
Maybe half as much as the amount of bacon the recipe calls for. It's much
saltier than bacon is and you dont' want to overpower the chicken.
Sheryl Rosen
mpearce...@cox.net wrote on 12/27/03 9:50 AM:
> You get no sympathy from a Sox fan for that. <g>
>
> I was reading about singer from Boston who was at a social event which was
> also attended by Ray Knight. Her group of friends wanted to get a picture
> with Ray and she insisted that she be the one to take the picture. When
> later asked why she was so insistent that she take the picture she said that
> it just didn't seem right to be in a photo with Ray Knight since he was the
> one who scored when "you know what" rolled through "you know who's" legs.
That's a GREAT story, Mike!!!!
I had forgotten it was Knight who scored. We all remember Mookie Wilson, who
hit the "you know what".
But I was watching that game a couple years back with my Dad, on ESPN
Classic, in the dead of winter, btw, and with the benefit of hindsight, and
the cooler heads that prevailed after, oh....14 or so years....he said to me
"You know, you can't really blame Buckner....that pitcher should have come
out about 6-7 pitches ago." Dad was against the pitch-count, he always
complained about it...but if a guy throws 98-99 pitches in the 7th inning,
you've got a lead and he's starting to look tired but no damage is done, yet
(Sound like someone we know from this year, Pedro?) he's thrown a good game,
he did his job, it's time to take him out. I'm against strict pitch-count
reactions....if he's thrown 50 pitches and he's walking guys and you've got
a 1 run lead.....get him outta there! But if he's thrown 100 pitches, but
he's still got his stuff, leave him in.
OB Food: They sell Legal Seafoods Clam Chowdah at Fenway.
PENMART01
Those kind of guests are simply control freaks (mentally ill) and should not be
catered to, perhaps suggest they bring their own food or stay home. Permitting
those types to lay guilt at the feet of the host only enables them to
rationalize their inappropriate behaviour. The scenario described herein has
not a whit to do with kosher... has all to do with appeasing the infantile
whims of a spoiled brat. This control freak is most obviouly not keeping
kosher, not in any way whatsoever. The real question here is for the host to
ask why permit an arrogant selfish clod to diminish the experience of *16 other
guests*. No host has the responsibility for ensuring a round peg fit a square
hole, let alone 16 square holes. And in this case of pretend kosher, catering
to the liar makes the host a damned liar.
sf
<marg...@no.spam.for.me.invalid> wrote:
> It's not just meat from a kosher place. It is the whole dinner that
> would have to be carefully planned.
>
> There may not be anything dairy served, such as butter on the
> vegetables, or onions caramelized in butter. There may not be shrimps
> or other seafood as appetizers or hors d'oeuvres and as you know
> already, no bacon or other forbidden meat in the coq au vin.
>
> The coffee may not be served with milk or cream and there may not be
> butter, milk, cream or cheese as a dessert ingredient. No ice cream or
> whipped cream with dessert, either.
>
> If you want your kosher friend to partake of the dinner, the best would
> be to have her tell you what you may and may not do and serve.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/kashrut.html#Rules
The actual food really isn't a problem, it's the cooking and
serving of it that throws up major roadblocks for most of
us.
>
> I am Jewish, but I don't even try to invite my kosher friends to a meat
> meal in my house.
I remember years ago, I said to a (Kosher) friend that I'd
love to have him come over for dinner, to which he said -
"No you wouldn't. Cooking for me would be too hard." He
was right.
Practice safe eating - always use condiments
sf
<anis...@worldlinkisp.com> wrote:
> >
>
> if someone was serious about keeping kosher, they wouldnt eat ANYTHING from
> a non-kosher kitchen. whats the point of following the laws half-way?
I think most nonKosher people forget that pots/pans and
utensils need to be Kosher too.
Mike Pearce
> "You know, you can't really blame Buckner....that pitcher should have come
> out about 6-7 pitches ago."
Buckner gets a bum rap for that whole thing. The Sox probably wouldn't have
made it to the series without him. He was the toughest and hardest working
player on the team that season.
> OB Food: They sell Legal Seafoods Clam Chowdah at Fenway.
Things have changed a lot with the new owners. It's not quite the old dingy
Fenway any more. I'm going to have to visit next summer, take in a game and
have a bowl of chowder. The best food at Fenway has always come from the
street vendors. One thing I missed last summer (my first in New Orleans) was
not having the Sox on the radio. I like listening to baseball/the Sox on the
radio much more than watching it on TV.
How did we get from coq au vin to the Red Sox?
-Mike
Nancy Young
>
> in article 3FECB46C...@mail.monmouth.com, Nancy Young at
> > That's pretty much what I didn't understand. Not being Jewish, never
> > mind kosher, I haven't the vaguest idea how someone keeping kosher
> > could eat in a non kosher home. I *guarantee* you I have no plates
> > or pots or utensils, etc., to tell someone it never touched pork or
> > dairy or whatever.
> >
> > Just saying, get a kosher chicken, that really doesn't cut it.
> >
> > Personally, if I kept kosher (not a plan), I would discretely bring
> > my own meal and utensils, obviously letting the host know. This way,
> > you get to hang out with friends and no stressful rules for them.
> They could have a salad on a paper plate with plastic flatware.
> Not much else.
Well, if they could bring it, they could have something else more
interesting. I mean, who's to say my knife didn't once cut meat
and then cut cheese at some other point. I promise that is the
case. I guess I could promise I tore the lettuce and assembled the
other salad ingredients by hand.
> I had a coworker who was Orthodox. When we had department lunches, he would
> order a garden salad with oil and vinegar dressing. Wherever we went, that's
> what he had. And bread. Butter or not depending on what he brought to eat at
> his desk.
Yeah, I worked with an orthodox woman for a couple of years. She was
*really* strict. As in, her husband made up new rules in his
rabbinical studies. Yikes. Well, she would never eat out with us,
not in a million years, but twice she had to and we went to kosher
restaurants. Fine, one was Chinese and the other was a pizza place.
I was afraid to pick up a fork (laughing). For what it's worth, the
pizza place was excellent.
> HOWEVER!...
> Many people "Keep" kosher at home, but are more lax about it outside the
> home. Personally, that seems hypocritical, but it's not really for me to
> say. Especially since I don't even try, at all.
I think that's a great compromise, within the spirit of the laws, but
hey, to each their own. It's not up to me to say what people should
eat/whatever, as long as it doesn't involve me. Look at it this way,
my co worker was essentially separated from any work or social
situations because of her rules. I get the vague feeling that's the
general idea of the rules. If someone can compromise and still feel
good about their choice, all the better for them.
nancy
Sheryl Rosen
mpearce...@cox.net wrote on 12/27/03 7:46 PM:
I dunno...you led the way, i just followed!!!!
Does WEEI stream on the web?
Maybe you can listen that way.
My family moved from Providence to southern CT (NY TV Market) in 1963. My
whole life, my poor dad had to try to tune in the Sox games from Hartford.
The only time we could watch them on tv was when they played at Yankee
Stadium, and then, only when it was a sellout (which it usually was). But I
got used to listening to them, rather than watching and I agree, it can be
much more intense and enjoyable.
I follow a local minor league team here, and when they go on the road, I
listen to the webcast. Our local announcer is GREAT, he is very vivid in his
descriptions, which is exactly what you need. You close your eyes, you can
picture the game.
Maybe there is a minor league team down in N.O. that you could follow?
I have found Minor League is much more fun than the majors. For one thing,
you can actually GO to the games without refinancing your house! And they
get the fans much more involved than in the majors. just a thought.
This time of year, I find myself longing for the sound of a bat striking a
ball.....and I switch to ESPN Espanol for Puerto Rican league baseball. Ok,
I don't speak a word of Spanish, but it's baseball, it's not that hard to
follow! I can count to 4, and that's really all the Spanish I need to know!
Richard Periut
> "Richard Periut" wrote in message news:3FED154C...@njDOTrr.com...
>
>
>
>>He's a friggin liar; atheist pedophile fat slob! He loves to talk about
>>all things kosher, and he is as kosher as a Cuban sandwhich ; )
>>
>>Richard
>
>
> Richard:
>
> I'm not going to allow myself to be pulled into the Sheldon bashing. I've
> seen that you have been having issues with him lately. Why don't you address
> this stuff directly at him if you feel the need to do it at all?
>
Please tell me you are joking? Right?
It's pretty clear to me that he's not a person you can try to reason
with. His capriciousness is beyond pathological.
> Sheldon has never said one thing to me that has riled me up in the least.
Again, I like to tick him off and see the results; I really get a good
laugh. He ought to write scatological comedy.
> The times we've actually gotten into discussions of any sort they have been
> friendly and pleasant. I know he throws insults around, but I just consider
> that part of his personality and don't get worked up over them. He's a poser
> in the insult department when compared to my golfing buddies. <g>
>
> Are you telling me that a Cuban sandwich is not kosher? <g>
That's what I've been making myself for lunch these past few days. It's
a comfort food for me : )
I wonder about
> maduros fried in lard?
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
The maduros maybe, but definitely not the lard : )
Happy Holidays,
Mike Pearce
>
> Does WEEI stream on the web?
> Maybe you can listen that way.
Yeah they do. The only time I've subscribed to a pay service on the web was
to listen to the Sox games last summer. It's just not the same as being able
to hop in the car and catch some of the game while doing other things.
> Maybe there is a minor league team down in N.O. that you could follow?
> I have found Minor League is much more fun than the majors. For one thing,
> you can actually GO to the games without refinancing your house! And they
> get the fans much more involved than in the majors. just a thought.
The Zephyrs are the minor league team here. I kind of pay attention to them
but they are not the Sox.
-Mike
Mike Pearce
news:3FEE35A8...@njDOTrr.com...
> Mike Pearce wrote:
> >
> > I'm not going to allow myself to be pulled into the Sheldon bashing.
I've
> > seen that you have been having issues with him lately. Why don't you
address
> > this stuff directly at him if you feel the need to do it at all?
> >
>
> Please tell me you are joking? Right?
>
> It's pretty clear to me that he's not a person you can try to reason
> with. His capriciousness is beyond pathological.
Again, I've had no problems with him.
> > Sheldon has never said one thing to me that has riled me up in the
least.
>
> Again, I like to tick him off and see the results; I really get a good
> laugh. He ought to write scatological comedy.
I only read a small number of the posts to R.F.C. I look for subjects in
which I'm interested (bread, baking, Boston stuff, Louisiana cooking, latin
food, etc.) and then I read posts of a handful of people I find interesting.
Among those people are you and Sheldon. I've never seen you as the type of
person who would post messages just to tick someone off. I'm assuming that
this is just and abberation of your usual gentlemanly behavior.
> > Are you telling me that a Cuban sandwich is not kosher? <g>
>
> That's what I've been making myself for lunch these past few days. It's
> a comfort food for me : )
You and me both.
After all the gluttony I've been practicing over the Christmas holiday I
feel like I should be eating light for at least a few days, but I can't get
what I call breaded pork out of my mind. My mom would make it every week or
two. She'd pound thin some pieces of pork, soak them in a lemon, garlic and
salt marinade for an hour or two. She'd then coat them with bread crumbs and
fry them up in a little lard. We'd squeeze some lemon over them at the
table. Now here comes the mixed ethnicity of my family, she'd always server
them with mashed potatoes and green beans. Talk about comfort food! I turn
back into I ten year old kid when I eat stuff like that.
> I wonder about
> > maduros fried in lard?
> >
>
> The maduros maybe, but definitely not the lard : )
Is there any other way to make them?
> Happy Holidays,
You too.
-Mike
Jack Schidt®
"Sheryl Rosen" <catm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:BC12FA47.4199D%catm...@optonline.net...
It's been several years, maybe 10. It's now become a rotation of trendy
restaurant ideas, one mutation being 'the roadkill grill'. It was too
pricey for the nascarites they were trying to attract though. Duh.
Jack Earnhart
Jack Schidt®
> "Jack Schidt®" wrote in message
> news:BwdHb.44845$v62....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > Then again, I'm a 35 year Met fan who's used to rolling his
> > eyes come September ;-O
>
> You get no sympathy from a Sox fan for that. <g>
>
> I was reading about singer from Boston who was at a social event which was
> also attended by Ray Knight. Her group of friends wanted to get a picture
> with Ray and she insisted that she be the one to take the picture. When
> later asked why she was so insistent that she take the picture she said
that
> it just didn't seem right to be in a photo with Ray Knight since he was
the
> one who scored when "you know what" rolled through "you know who's" legs.
Everybody forgets that the 'roll through' happened in game 6 and that there
was an entire game 7 for the sox to hand it over.
>
> > Other than that...well....(said in best Brooklyn accent)...come awn,
> gimme a
> > friggin' break, ya friggin' bananas or somethin'? OB Food, NY is it.
One
> > can find [your local food specialty here] done expertly, yet can't make
> the
> > trip to [your city here] and find reciprocation, aka bagels, pizza,
> > delicatessens, etc. Sheesh.
>
> New Orleans is a great food city. It is truly difficult to find a bad
> restaruant here, but it doesn't have the variety I'm used to coming from
> Boston. I still haven't found a decent pizza, forget about Spanish food,
and
> I wouldn't even consider getting a bagel here. There is some decent
Italian
> food, but it's not like we have in the north east. The Italian food is
> mostly a kind of Italian/Creole mix.
>
I like NO and didn't wanna get into a pissing contest over 'my town's
better'n yours'. It's all good....well, except for maybe the Sapp Bros.
truck stop in Omaha...ouch.
Jack Coffeepot
Sheryl Rosen
jack-...@snot.net wrote on 12/28/03 1:09 PM:
Sad.
Goldies was an oddity, in a good way.
Part diner, part NY Style Deli, part---who knows what?!
Sort of a throwback to a different time.
We didn't go often, maybe 2-3 times a year, for a few years there, from my
Senior year in High school until Mom got sick, around 1988. About 8 years,
we went several times a year, usually in the summer. Back before we had a/c
in the entire house....we would get into the car and go for a long drive, to
enjoy the air conditioned comfort of the car. Maybe stop at the mall (again,
a/c) get some dinner, and by the time we'd return home, the sun had gone
down and the house was cooler.
My dad always found it strange that this part of the state didn't support
Jewish style restaurants and kosher stores. We always had to travel for what
Dad called "soul food". Either to New York or further into CT. Later in
his life, it was more often deeper into CT, as the traffic in NY was even
worse then than ever before.
I'll never forget one Sat night, we drove all the way to....Scarsdale I
think, somewhere in Westchester county, to go to a deli. I forget the name,
there is one also in Yonkers, but we went to the closer one in the ritzier
town. Dad got a ticket for making a U Turn! The whole trip home was my mom
"I told you so-ing"!!!! That was some expensive pastrami! :-)
The Cook
>On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:17:01 -0500, "Saerah"
><anis...@worldlinkisp.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> if someone was serious about keeping kosher, they wouldnt eat ANYTHING from
>> a non-kosher kitchen. whats the point of following the laws half-way?
>
>I think most nonKosher people forget that pots/pans and
>utensils need to be Kosher too.
>
>
Reminds me of a story a friend told on herself.
She was helping her sister-in-law with the dishes at her in-law's
home. She noticed new dishes and asked when the parents got them.
The reply was "After you put cream in a coffee cup of the meat
dishes." My friend was a convert and did not keep a kosher kitchen.
--
Susan N.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
blake murphy
<jack-...@snot.net> wrote:
>
>
>Are you really Dr. Bronner?? Dilute! Dilute! Ok!
>
>Jack Castile
>
for a long time i looked for dr. bronner's herbal soy sauce
'substitute,' after my dad's first heart attack. i could never find
it. i suppose there's a web presence somewhere. kooky bastard.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
<mpearce...@cox.net> wrote:
>"Jack SchidtŽ" wrote in message
>news:Pl6Hb.8932$006....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> I think I remember you telling me you'd been there, but Goldie's
>restaurant
>> in New London used to feature pastrami and eggs, and also a, get this -
>> reuben omelet. They also featured pitchers of martinis, but that was for
>> later in the day ;-P
>>
>
>If Goldie's were here in New Orleans they wouldn't be waiting until later in
>the day for the martinis. One of the benefits of living in a 24 hour city.
><g>
>
>-Mike
>
don't they even have to close for an hour to clean? i seem to recall
that in new york city, bars weren't permitted to serve alcohol between
four and six a.m.
your pal,
blake
Mike Pearce
news:8099vv46uk4ctskqb...@4ax.com...
> "Mike Pearce" wrote:
>
> >If Goldie's were here in New Orleans they wouldn't be waiting until later
in
> >the day for the martinis. One of the benefits of living in a 24 hour
city.
> ><g>
> don't they even have to close for an hour to clean? i seem to recall
> that in new york city, bars weren't permitted to serve alcohol between
> four and six a.m.
>
Clean? You must not have noticed that I was talking about New Orleans. <g>
-Mike
Erica
> I'm planning to make coq au vin for 17 people on New Year's Eve, a
> perfect dish because I can make it a day or two in advance. But I
> think the skin looks nasty coming out of the pot, all gray and falling
> off, so I'm thinking of buying skinless chicken legs and thigh. Is
> there any reason this is a bad idea??
Not at all. I make my coq au vin with skinless thighs.
> Also, I have a Jewish friend who will eat in my house if I buy meat
> from a kosher butcher. But, of course, a key element of coq au vin is
> bacon or pancetta. I'll cook his separately, omitting butter and
> bacon. But what could I do to make up for the flavor???
Here's a thought: buy your chicken with the skin on, but remove the
skin yourself. Dice the skin, along with a big yellow onion, and put
them in a skillet on low heat. When the fat is rendered and the
cracklings are crisp, you can use the gribenes (cracklings) instead of
bacon, and rendered fat instead of butter.
--Erica