Pre-columbian Italian Food
Ken Overton
to the Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe
from China by Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from
the Americas, so Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these
food items?
-- kov
Michael Edelman
Ken Overton wrote:
I have this image of Italians sitting around at home..."Sophia! Make
some spaghetti!" "Luigi, you fool, you know pasta and tomatos haven't
been discovered yet!!!"
But there's an awful lot of Italian cooking that has no noodles, rice or
tomatos in it. There's a lot of Mediterrainian cooking in general
without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
bet polenta was there long before noodles. You've got olives, fish- tons
of fish- onions, artichokes, herbs (but no exotic spices), bread,
vegetables...
In fact, it's amazing how *little* Italian cooking relies on pasta and
tomatos. Problem is that in the typicle Italian restaurant it's the
opposite ;-)
Title: Sauteed Greens for Piadini
1 lb Fresh spinach or Swiss chard
1/2 lb Broccoli top (cime di rapa)
-or other bitter greens
1 lb Head Savoy cabbage
Salt
1/4 c Olive oil
1 tb Chopped garlic
Freshly ground pepper
Wash spinach and cime di rapa thoroughly. Discard the darkest outer
leaves of the cabbage and cut off the stem; cut cabbage in quarters.
Bring 3 or 4 quarts of water to a boil, add 1 tablespoon salt and put
in the cime di rapa. Cover loosely top and cook for 8 to 12 minutes.
Drain and set aside.
If using chard, cook in exactly the same manner, stalks included, but
in its own water. The cabbage is cooked the same way, but without
salt, for 15 to 20 minutes. If using spinach, cook in a covered pan
with just the water that clings to the leaves, adding salt to taste.
Cook until tender, drain, set aside.
Gently but firmly squeeze all the moisture you can out of all the
greens. Chop together, but not too fine.
Put oil and garlic in medium saute pan and saute over medium heat
until garlic becomes lightly colored. Add chopped greens, turning
with a fork so they are evenly coated, seasoning with salt and
pepper. Saute about 10 minutes, turning frequently. Taste and
correct seasoning.
Serve hot.
Serves 6.
--
Michael Edelman http://www.mich.com/~mje
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Queen Isabella
>Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured
>to the Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe
>from China by Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from
>the Americas, so Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
I hate to update your history lesson, but Chris sailed from
Spain and brought the tomatoe seeds back here. Now, how the
Italians got them is another story. You will note however
that tomatoes are more prevalent in southern Italian cooking
rather than northern, so that gives us a clue. Our special
prosecutor has been working on it for over 500 years and is
very close to an indictment, possibly an impeachment.
>Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these
>food items?
Much better.
PENMART10
>But there's an awful lot of Italian cooking that has no noodles, rice or
>tomatos in it. There's a lot of Mediterrainian cooking in general
>without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
>bet polenta was there long before noodles.
You'd lose that bet if you're talking polenta made with cornmeal.
Sheldon
````````````
On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line:
"I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."
WardNA
>bet polenta was there long before noodles.
Not if it was made with maize.
t r i l l i u m
~without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
~bet polenta was there long before noodles. You've got olives, fish- tons
Why would you bet that? Corn before noodles?
The translation of Pellegrino Artusi's book, while originally published in the
19th century, has lots of recipes that seem to predate the popularity of
tomatoes. There are pasta and tomato containing dishes, but many others as
well.
regards,
trillium
Michael Odom
wrote:
[snip]
>But there's an awful lot of Italian cooking that has no noodles, rice or
>tomatos in it. There's a lot of Mediterrainian cooking in general
>vegetables...
>
before Columbus, so I'd guess lots of "exotic" stuff like pepper,
cloves, cinnamon, and such was there for at least some Pre-Columbian
Italians (nice to think of the conquest going the other way, yes?)
Polenta on the other hand is made from New World corn, which dates it
post conquest.
[snip]
--
M.Odom
modom@boisdarc[dot]tamu-commerce[dot]edu
Kaari Jae
>
> Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured
> to the Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe
> from China by Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from
> the Americas, so Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
>
> food items?
>
Now if my memory serves me right there's an English translation of a
Roman times cookbook available originally written I think by Pethrarca
(I think). It contains quite a few recipes that are used also today. The
food back then, before 1300, consisted of quite a lot of vegetables
(root veggies like carrots, turnips etc.), herbs, spices (the spice
caravans from India and Arabia), game and of course fish too. Olives and
olive oil making goes way back too, and of course wine was also used
both for drinking and for food. Using clay pots for making stews was I
think also invented by Romans (unless they stole the idea from
Egyptians).
Kaari
who lost a lot of useful bookmarks when changing computers :(
--
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Howard Isaacs
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:02:35 -0400, Ken Overton wrote
(in message <6rhhar$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>):
>
> Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured to the
> Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe from China by
> Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from the Americas, so
> Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
>
> Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these food
> items?
>
> -- kov
Among other perennial misconceptions, Marco Polo did not bring noodles to
Italy; they were already there. One theory is that they came in by way of the
Arabs. If you really want an earful, try posting this query on
rec.food.historic.
--
Howard Isaacs
Editor
The Italian Traveler
Ken Overton
Queen Isabella <qu...@monarch.spain.net> writes:
> Ken Overton <k...@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> ... tomatoes originated from the Americas, so
>
> Spain and brought the tomatoe seeds back here.
But what I wrote did not say that Sr. Colon brought "new world" slaves
and goods to Italy, but to Europe. It wasn't my point to follow the
trail of tomato seeds each step of the way to Italy, so I'm truly sorry
for the confusion my lack of clarity caused Her Highness.
-- kov
Ken Overton
> tomatos in it. There's a lot of Mediterrainian cooking in general
> without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
> bet polenta was there long before noodles. You've got olives, fish- tons
> of fish- onions, artichokes, herbs (but no exotic spices), bread,
> vegetables...
> In fact, it's amazing how *little* Italian cooking relies on pasta and
> tomatos. Problem is that in the typicle Italian restaurant it's the
Yes, part of the reason I neglected learning anything about Italian
food was because I wasn't crazy about tomato sauces. I would love to
know more (um, *any*) Italian recipes for fish.
And of course, thanks for the recipe posting.
-- kov
hann...@hotmail.com
"Howard Isaacs" <ital...@tuna.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:02:35 -0400, Ken Overton wrote
> (in message <6rhhar$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>):
> >
> > Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured to the
> > Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe from China by
> > Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
> >
> > items?
> >
> > -- kov
>
> Among other perennial misconceptions, Marco Polo did not bring noodles to
> Italy; they were already there. One theory is that they came in by way of the
> Arabs. If you really want an earful, try posting this query on
> rec.food.historic.
But the Romans already ate noodly stuff (haven't got it at hand here,
but I remenber some Apicius recipes - isn't there a collection on Amy Gales'
site?) I've been told they got it from the Etruscans.
Hanneke
> --
> Howard Isaacs
> Editor
> The Italian Traveler
>
>
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hann...@hotmail.com
Michael Edelman <m...@mich.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Overton wrote:
>
> > Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured
> > to the Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe
> > from China by Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from
> > the Americas, so Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
> >
> > Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these
> > food items?
>
> some spaghetti!" "Luigi, you fool, you know pasta and tomatos haven't
> been discovered yet!!!"
>
> tomatos in it. There's a lot of Mediterrainian cooking in general
> without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
> bet polenta was there long before noodles. You've got olives, fish- tons
I doubt polenta was there before noodles. Unless the noodles came
after the corn came from America (together with the tomatoes).
Hanneke
> of fish- onions, artichokes, herbs (but no exotic spices), bread,
> vegetables...
[cut nice recipe]
> --
> Michael Edelman http://www.mich.com/~mje
> Telescope guide: http://www.mich.com/~mje/scope.html
> Folding Kayaks: http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html
>
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> rhu...@fcc.gov jqu...@fcc.gov sn...@fcc.gov rch...@fcc.gov
> cust...@email.usps.gov consum...@ftc.gov
> admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost
> $USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
>
>
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Computer Lab
WardNA <war...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199808202136...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >I'll
> >bet polenta was there long before noodles.
>
> Not if it was made with maize.
>
>
Ah, but polenta dates at least back to the empire ... of course they used
barley or wheat back then. I recall reading in Latin class that Roman
soldiers were issued grain along with their salarium to make polenta.
When corn (maize) became available, the old recipe was adapted to the new
grain.
--
- Matthew Takeda
mct7(remove to reply)@pge.com
Barry Grau
> Michael Edelman <m...@mich.com> wrote:
>
>~without these ingredients. (I wonder if dumplings predate noodles?) I'll
>~bet polenta was there long before noodles. You've got olives, fish- tons
>
>Why would you bet that? Corn before noodles?
Not all polenta is made from corn.
Here's wjat the OED (which has recently been maligned for its definitions of
chutney and curry) says:
Etymology: L. polenta peeled or pearl barley; in later use, repr. Ital.
polenta `a meate vsed in
Italie made of barlie or chesnut flowre soked in water, and then fride in oyle
or butter' (Florio
1598); now made also of maize flour.
a Pearl-barley. Obs. b A kind of barley meal. Obs. c Porridge made from
steeped and parched
barley or, later, of meal of chestnuts, maize flour, or other substances: now
largely used in Italy.
There's also polenta nera made from buckwheat.
Barry Grau (gr...@uic.edu)
Bob Y.
>
>On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:02:35 -0400, Ken Overton wrote
>(in message <6rhhar$k...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>):
>>
>> Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured to the
>> Americas? I know that noodle-making was brought to Europe from China by
>> Marco Polo around 1300. And tomatoes originated from the Americas, so
>> Europe couldn't have had em before 1500.
>>
>> Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these food
>> items?
>>
>> -- kov
>
>Among other perennial misconceptions, Marco Polo did not bring noodles to
>Italy; they were already there. One theory is that they came in by way of the
>Arabs. If you really want an earful, try posting this query on
>rec.food.historic.
>
And, polenta was made with ground wheat rather than cornmeal. Much of
contemporary Italian cooking is a result of exposure to the foods of the
Americas.
And they have done pretty darn well.
d(:)
Bob Y.
If there were dungeons below Dream Park, what would the jailers look like?
And the rats?
--The Barsoom Project
Michael Odom
wrote:
>Ah, but polenta dates at least back to the empire ... of course they used
>barley or wheat back then. I recall reading in Latin class that Roman
>soldiers were issued grain along with their salarium to make polenta.
The Latin word is "puls," which I recall is usually translated as
porrige or gruel. This leads me to think it's a different item. Two
disclaimers should be added to this alleged factoid, however: 1. My
last Latin class was 30 years ago. 2. The Latin I studied included
Caesar, Plautus, Terrence, Cicero, Virgil, and Ovid, but very little
by way of cookbooks. That is, neither my sources nor my teachers nor
my dictionary were especially known for culinary orientations. They
may simply have never heard of polenta.
OBFood: I do recall being stumped in my second year by a Latin 2nd
declension noun naming a vegetable--asparagus, which is pronounced
AHs-par-AH-goos, in lingua latina. I had to look it up, no less
>When corn (maize) became available, the old recipe was adapted to the new
>grain.
>
>--
>- Matthew Takeda
>mct7(remove to reply)@pge.com
--
Ken Overton
Kaari Jae <8899...@hem1.passagen.se> writes:
>
> Now if my memory serves me right there's an English translation of a
> Roman times cookbook available originally written I think by Pethrarca
> (I think). It contains quite a few recipes that are used also today.
Fantastic! I'll definitely go look for it. In general, would you say
that there are quite a few historic cookbooks around? I haven't really
looked for them, but it's always been in the back of my mind to see
some.
best,
-- kov
Barry Grau
You might also want to follow this url:
http://www.realm-of-shade.com/sweetlady/RomanCuisine/page1cuisine.html
Barry Grau (gr...@uic.edu)
Combat Lit
is a very nice little book published by the Italian Trade Commission entitled:
Columbus Menu, Italian Cuisine after the First Voyage of Christopher Columbus.
The author documents the arrival of certain foods in Italy and there are
historical recipes in each chapter. Chapters include: The Tomato; The Potato;
Corn (Maize); Beans and Green Beans; Squashes; Sweet and Hot Peppers; Turkey;
Cacao.
Robert in El Sobrante, CA
Renee
> Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured
> to the Americas?
>
> Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these
> food items?
>
Ken, a good place to start would be with Barbara Flowers translation
of "The Roman Cookery Book" by Apicius.
Hope this helps,
Renee
...my opinions do not reflect those of the University...
ren...@skylands.net
> > Does anyone has info about Italian food before Columbus ventured
> > to the Americas?
> >
> > Tomatoes and pasta. Just what was Italian cuisine like before these
> > food items?
> >
Hello! Please visit my links page:
http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/links.html for many culinary history
sites with recipes.
HTH,
Cindy Renfrow
ren...@skylands.net
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/
Saygnite
Catherine de Medicis, who married Henry II of France in 1533, and is credited
with with having a profound influence on French cooking by bringing her
professional cooking staff with her. Despite that date being after our famous
1492, I doubt there was much tomato in their recipes. Her court introduced
innovations in sauces, spicing and new levels of refinement.
t r i l l i u m
~1492, I doubt there was much tomato in their recipes. Her court introduced
~innovations in sauces, spicing and new levels of refinement.
It depends on what you call refinement. Of pre-New World influenced Italian
recipes I have tried, I prefer the Roman food to the French influenced
Italian. I've found many recipes from that time to be pretty insipid compared
to what Italians are cooking now, or did before her arrival. If I wanted
disguised and incognito food, I'd eat French food. (This sounds much grumpier
than I intend it to)
regards,
trillium