Softening bones in fish

[Windmill]

The bones in canned fish are soft, almost disintegrated. How do they do
that?

Would cooking fish in a pressure cooker do the same thing?

If so, for how long?

I like the taste of herring, but ever since I was a boy I've hated
those tiny bones so much that I don't eat it.


--
Windmill, Til...@Nonetel.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

[Nunya Bidnits]

Windmill <spam-n...@Onetel.net.uk.invalid> wrote:
> The bones in canned fish are soft, almost disintegrated. How do they
> do that?
>
> Would cooking fish in a pressure cooker do the same thing?
>
> If so, for how long?
>
> I like the taste of herring, but ever since I was a boy I've hated
> those tiny bones so much that I don't eat it.

I don't know the answer but the spinal bones in canned salmon are the best
part!

[Helpful person]

On Jan 15, 11:33 am, Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:
> Canned salmon (and tuna) is cooked to 185F, not once but twice.  I
> suspect that has something to do with it as nobody in their right mind
> would do that to fresh fish.
>
> -sw

Surely you mean 185C

http://www.richardfisher.com

[Chemo]

Yikes! That would be like 365F!!

[Jim Elbrecht]

Is that even possible? Would it still be edible if it dried out
enough to reach 365F?

He said 'cooked to' not 'cooked at'.

Jim

[James Silverton]

I believe the temperature used for commercial pressure canning of salmon
is about 245F (118C), well above the boiling point of water but nothing
like 365F.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[bigwheel]

Sounds like yall are on the verge of stumbling over my world famous top
secret carp patties here. I do it just like the nice elderly Africkan
American Lady splained it to me as we was fishing on the creek bank with
out cane poles one day. You clean the carp and cut them up to fit the
pressure cooker and add a cup of water and a Bay leaf or whatever flavor
you like and let it rock thirty mins. Let cool of its own accord. When
it gets cool enough to handle pick out all the big bones you can..then
run the rest through the meat grinder..she say twice..I do it once. Then
just patty them up and cook like salmon patties. Much much superior to
salmon might I add. Carp are a delicious fish. Just too many bones. On
your fish might stop before the meat grinder stage.




--
bigwheel

[Windmill]

Chemo <bhans...@yahoo.com> writes:

>On Jan 15, 11:09=A0am, Helpful person <rrl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 15, 11:33=A0am, Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> wrote:
>>
>> > Canned salmon (and tuna) is cooked to 185F, not once but twice. =A0I

>> > suspect that has something to do with it as nobody in their right mind
>> > would do that to fresh fish.
>> > -sw
>>
>> Surely you mean 185C
>>
>> http://www.richardfisher.com

>Yikes! That would be like 365F!!

I'm not suggesting that this would ever be done in a pressure cooker,
but under sufficient pressure (as in a power plant) steam can be raised
to incredibly high temperatures.

[Windmill]

Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost> writes:

>On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:52:07 GMT, Windmill wrote:

>> The bones in canned fish are soft, almost disintegrated. How do they do
>> that?
>>
>> Would cooking fish in a pressure cooker do the same thing?
>>
>> If so, for how long?
>>
>> I like the taste of herring, but ever since I was a boy I've hated
>> those tiny bones so much that I don't eat it.

>Canned salmon (and tuna) is cooked to 185F, not once but twice.

>I suspect that has something to do with it as nobody in their right mind
>would do that to fresh fish.

I would, because I gag on fish bones, but would like to cook and eat
fresh herring (other fish can be effectively filleted, but herring
always seem to have tiny bones).

Seems logical to me.

[Windmill]

I don't think food dries out in a pressure cooker.

Pressure raises the boiling point of the water in the cooker.

With steam under pressure the temperature rises above 212F / 100C (how
much above depends on how much of a pressure rise is allowed by the
cooker setting).

If it really does require 185C to soften the bones, I think I can
forget about cooking herring myself; that temperature and associated
pressure would probably be far above the capabilities of a domestic
pressure cooker.

[Windmill]

If it requires only 118C it may be worth my while to buy a pressure
cooker for experimentation.

[Helpful person]

On Jan 15, 4:01 pm, Jim Elbrecht <elbre...@email.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:09:36 -0800 (PST), Helpful person
>
> <rrl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 15, 11:33 am, Sqwertz <swe...@cluemail.compost>

> >Surely you mean 185C
>
> Is that even possible?     Would it still be edible if it dried out
> enough to reach 365F?
>
> He said 'cooked to' not 'cooked at'.
>
> Jim

You're right. I misread

http://www.richardisher.com

[Bryan]

This thread got me thinking about canned sardines, which I love, but don't eat often because they're expensive. So, I decided to see if they'd be cheaper by the case from Amazon. Not so. They're actually cheaper at ALDI. Still, while looking, I I typed "herring" into the search, and the first hit was an episode of an Australian TV show that had an episode titled, "Red Herring." The girls in the show looked very good, so I watched episode 1 of season 1.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057758YY

It looks even hokier than Roswell, and the starlets are almost as cute.

>
> --
>
> Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>

--Bryan

[Doug Freyburger]

Bryan wrote:
>
> This thread got me thinking about canned sardines, which I love, but
> don't eat often because they're expensive. So, I decided to see if
> they'd be cheaper by the case from Amazon. Not so. They're actually
> cheaper at ALDI. Still, while looking, I I typed "herring" into the

> search ...

Canned herring is so cheap I knew a cat lady who supplemented the
generic kibble she fed her many cats with a couple of cans of herring.

Herring may be an acquired taste, may be a cultural thing. The Japanese
like it as Saba. Raw or baked salty. To me it's like extremely intense
sardines. Okay a couple of times per year.

Do you like tuna salad from canned tuna but think salmon salad from
canned salmon is even better? Sardine salad with sour cream instead of
mayo is more intense. Herring salad with sour cream is most intense.
They form a spectrum.

[Nunya Bidnits]

I like Vita brand Herring in Sour Cream a lot. Serve with crackers, red
onions and capers.

[Brooklyn1]

Bryan wrote:
>
> This thread got me thinking about canned sardines, which I love, but
> don't eat often because they're expensive. So, I decided to see if
> they'd be cheaper by the case from Amazon. Not so. They're actually
> cheaper at ALDI. Still, while looking, I I typed "herring" into the
> search ...

If you mean those oval cans those haven't been herring for years, they
are labeled sardines, usually in tomato sauce. Herring is a
particular kind of fish, sardines can be any kind of fish. Herring
has gotten pricey.

[Bryan]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:19:08 PM UTC-6, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Bryan wrote:
>
> >
>
> > This thread got me thinking about canned sardines, which I love, but
>
> > don't eat often because they're expensive. So, I decided to see if
>
> > they'd be cheaper by the case from Amazon. Not so. They're actually
>
> > cheaper at ALDI. Still, while looking, I I typed "herring" into the
>
> > search ...
>
>
>
> Canned herring is so cheap I knew a cat lady who supplemented the
>
> generic kibble she fed her many cats with a couple of cans of herring.
>

I was looking for prices on smoked kipper, and entered herring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipper

>
> Herring may be an acquired taste, may be a cultural thing. The Japanese
>
> like it as Saba. Raw or baked salty. To me it's like extremely intense
>
> sardines. Okay a couple of times per year.
>
>
>
> Do you like tuna salad from canned tuna but think salmon salad from
>
> canned salmon is even better? Sardine salad with sour cream instead of
>
> mayo is more intense. Herring salad with sour cream is most intense.
>
> They form a spectrum.

I don't do jizzy "salad." My rule is pretty much, if it's called, "salad," but is not a salad (lettuce, etc.), then I don't consider it food. I certainly don't slop together jarred mayo with anything and call it food. I will hold my nose and eat canned tuna or canned red salmon straight from the can, but the only time I ever do so is when we get it donated to the food pantry, and it either has no date or is past date, so we can't give it to poor folks (which is stupid). I can't bear to throw high quality protein into the dumpster. Canned pink salmon would be a challenge. Jack mackerel goes in the dumpster. I've seen cats walk away from that stuff.

--Bryan

[Nunya Bidnits]

No, I mean this, great stuff:
http://www.vitafoodproducts.com/p-209-vita-herring-in-sour-cream.aspx

MartyB

[Doug Freyburger]

Sqwertz wrote:

> James Silverton wrote:
>
>> I believe the temperature used for commercial pressure canning of salmon
>> is about 245F (118C), well above the boiling point of water but nothing
>> like 365F.
>

> I read 185F on the instructions for a retort setup, but that must have
> been it's minimum - maybe not speficially for fish. You're right -
> It's 240F-250F.
>
> That's almost twice the temperature you'd cook fish at home. No
> wonder canned fish doesn't resemble anything you'd cook at home.

Canned products need to be cooked to a very high temperature to
guarantee against botulism and other anaeroboc bacteria growth.

[jmcquown]

Gawd. It looks like a jar of Marshmallow Fluff! Now with herring! LOL

Jill

[jmcquown]

On 1/17/2013 7:58 AM, Bryan wrote:
> I don't do jizzy "salad." My rule is pretty much, if it's called, "salad," but is not a salad (lettuce, etc.), then I don't consider it food. I certainly don't slop together jarred mayo with anything and call it food. I will hold my nose and eat canned tuna or canned red salmon straight from the can, but the only time I ever do so is when we get it donated to the food pantry, and it either has no date or is past date, so we can't give it to poor folks (which is stupid). I can't bear to throw high quality protein into the dumpster. Canned pink salmon would be a challenge. Jack mackerel goes in the dumpster. I've seen cats walk away from that stuff.
>
> --Bryan

Good lord, give up GoogleGroups. It sucks as a newsreader. At least
figure out a way to fix your line wrapping problems along with the
spacing problems.

Jill

[gtr]

On 2013-01-15 05:52:07 +0000, Windmill said:

> The bones in canned fish are soft, almost disintegrated. How do they do
> that?
>
> Would cooking fish in a pressure cooker do the same thing?
>
> If so, for how long?
>
> I like the taste of herring, but ever since I was a boy I've hated
> those tiny bones so much that I don't eat it.

Can't answer but I use to get a long-simmered dish of fish in broth at
one Japanese restaurant during the winter. It was buri, I think, and is
a larger yellowtail, apparently not best for sushi/sashimi, but a
favorite for New Year's celebration and such.

Anyway I believe they simmer this thing for a very long time. The
bones are significant in girth, but in eating they have only the
slightest crunch and break down immediately. Might want to check for
simmered buri/yellowtail recipes.

[gtr]

On 2013-01-17 12:58:50 +0000, Bryan said:

>> Do you like tuna salad from canned tuna but think salmon salad from
>> canned salmon is even better? Sardine salad with sour cream instead of
>> mayo is more intense. Herring salad with sour cream is most intense.
>> They form a spectrum.

Mmmm... herring...

> I don't do jizzy "salad." My rule is pretty much, if it's called,
> "salad," but is not a salad (lettuce, etc.), then I don't consider it
> food.

I don't care what it's called if it tastes good and includes things I
like, which happen to include almost any hikarimono (shiny fish), like
sardines, herring, mackarel, gizzard shad, halfbeak, pike, et al.
Though rarely canned; either fresh, pickled or dried.

> I certainly don't slop together jarred mayo with anything and call it food.

Mayo too but it really needs to be handled with care, it has it's
textural qualities, but the taste can dominate anything.

> I will hold my nose and eat canned tuna or canned red salmon straight
> from the can, but the only time I ever do so is when we get it donated
> to the food pantry, and it either has no date or is past date, so we
> can't give it to poor folks (which is stupid).

I haven't had any canned fish like that in years, but don't recall any
of it every tasting particularly good unless doctored (mayo or
otherwise) until it comprises the least notable aspect of the dish.

> I can't bear to throw high quality protein into the dumpster. Canned
> pink salmon would be a challenge. Jack mackerel goes in the dumpster.
> I've seen cats walk away from that stuff.

I've got a bunch of canned fish in the pantry that has gone unused for
5 or 8 years. Smoked oysters for one, certainly sardines and a few
others. I oughta pull it all out and go through it one by one and
settle the issue of whether I even like canned fish.

[Jim Elbrecht]

That's one of my 'every 3-4 years' grab a bottle treats. I end up
making 3-4 sandwiches with it. nobody else in the house will touch
it.

I made it once with perch [or was it Walleye?]. Not quite as good-
but the bones disappeared because of the vinegar. It takes minimal
heat processing.

Jim

[Brooklyn1]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:40:04 -0600, "Nunya Bidnits"
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

I don't think you can buy those from Amazon... those are not canned...
they're pickled and need to be kept refrigerated. You started out
talking about canned and now switched to jarred... that type of
herring is not even vacuum packed. Vita products are not really very
good, no comparison to the real deal one can buy at a NYC "appy".
Not many remain:
http://shop.russanddaughters.com/store/department/68/Herring/

[Nunya Bidnits]

Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:40:04 -0600, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>> Bryan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This thread got me thinking about canned sardines, which I love,
>>>> but don't eat often because they're expensive. So, I decided to
>>>> see if they'd be cheaper by the case from Amazon. Not so.
>>>> They're actually cheaper at ALDI. Still, while looking, I I typed
>>>> "herring" into the search ...
>>>
>>> If you mean those oval cans those haven't been herring for years,
>>> they are labeled sardines, usually in tomato sauce. Herring is a
>>> particular kind of fish, sardines can be any kind of fish. Herring
>>> has gotten pricey.
>>
>> No, I mean this, great stuff:
>> http://www.vitafoodproducts.com/p-209-vita-herring-in-sour-cream.aspx
>
> I don't think you can buy those from Amazon... those are not canned...
> they're pickled and need to be kept refrigerated.

You asked if I meant canned sardines. I answered.

> You started out
> talking about canned and now switched to jarred...

What a distressing turn of events. Get well soon.

> that type of
> herring is not even vacuum packed. Vita products are not really very
> good, no comparison to the real deal one can buy at a NYC "appy".
> Not many remain:
> http://shop.russanddaughters.com/store/department/68/Herring/

The "real deal" probably comes right out of a Vita jar.

MartyB

[Ema Nymton]

A jar of herring at Sam's Club was $6.95. The price has gone up quite a bit.

Becca

[Brooklyn1]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:34:53 -0600, Ema Nymton <EmaN...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Probably a small jar at that. Herring has become expensive because
it's a particular fish, not any small schooling fish like sardines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardine

The best pickled herring is from the Baltic, shipped to specialty
shops in the US in wooden kegs... very few of these specialty shops
(appetizing shops) exist anymore. Jarred herring (like Vita) made in
the US is by comparison crap. There are still several stores that
sell the various imported pickled herrings in Brooklyn's little Odessa
(Brighton Beach).