Listing Of Frugal Gourmet's Video Series!
Terrell W. Armstrong
Jeff Smith's light historical approach to food and cooking methods makes
spending time in the kitchen enjoyable! (30 min. each) $12.98 each.
American Regional
& Historical Cooking Series
American Breakfast #11254
Backyard Barbecue #11255
New Orleans #11256
Philadelphia #11257
Colonies #11258
Early American Cuisine #11259
New England #11260
Pennsylvania Dutch #11261
Shakers #11262
Jewish Nosher #11263
New Orleans Dishes #11264
Soul Food #11265
Southern Cooking #11266
Barbecue Southern Style #11267
Pacific Northwest #11268
Southwest Indians #11269
Appetizers Series
Appetizers #11313
First Courses And Wine #11314
Hors d'Oeuvres Buffet #11315
Tapas Buffet #11316
Breads, Pastas, & Rice Series
Breads #11304
French & Italian Breads #11305
Sourdough #11306
Noodles, Dumplings,
Biscuits & Scones #11308
Pasta Buffet #11309
Rice #11310
Cheese And Eggs Series
Cheese For A Meal #11289
Yogurt & Cheese #11290
Classic Omelet #11291
Quiche #11292
Cooking Methods Series
Ancient Method Of Steaming #11332
Cooking In Paper #11333
Tabletop Cooking #11334
Desserts Series
Chocolate #11321
Desserts #11322
Sherbets & Ice Cream #11323
Wine & Dessert #11324
Entertaining At Home Series
Casseroles For The Buffet #11320
Coffee For Entertaining #11326
Entertaining For Two #11327
Molded Meal #11328
Sandwich Buffet #11329
Sit-Down Buffet #11330
Stand-Up Buffet #11331
European Cuisine Series
Foods From Greece #11270
Addictive Pastas #11271
Edible Italian History #11272
Italian Kitchen #11273
French Kitchen #11274
Polish Kitchen #11275
Spanish Kitchen #11276
Far East Cuisines
Dim Sum #11277
Dishes From
The Court Of Peking #11278
Hunan Treasures #11279
Chinese Kitchen #11280
Japanese Kitchen #11281
Fish And Seafoods Series
Clams #11293
Crabs #11294
Fish With A Flair #11295
Seafood & Wine #11296
Fruits And Vegetables Series
Apples #11284
Gracious Tomato #11285
Garlic! Garlic! Garlic! #11286
Vegetables With Class #11287
Whole-Meat Salads #11288
Meats And Poultry Series
Classic Beef Dishes #11297
Fancy Chicken Dishes #11298
Turkey #11299
Barbecue #11300
Grilling #11302
Meat Marinades #11303
Middle Eastern/African Cuisine Series
Lebanon #11282
Dishes Of Africa #11283
Potpourri Series
Firefighter Cooks #11335
Low-Salt/Low-Fat Cooking #11336
Religious Dishes #11337
Sauces And Seasonings Series
Sauces #11307
Sauces From Wine #11312
Soups And Salads Series
Chili #11317
Soups #11318
Whole-Meat Soups #11319
To order any of these wonderful videos just send check or money-order for
$12.98 per video to: T.A. International, 2754 N. 47 St., Milwaukee, WI
53210. (One low shipping charge of $5.00--no matter how many titles you
order. Please include item numbers next to titles to aid us in completing
your order).
Thank you.
-------------------------------------
Terrell Armstrong, President
T.A. International
ter...@omnifest.uwm.edu
-------------------------------------
Mary f(pud)
Terrell,
While I love the "Frug", the place for your post is
rec.food.marketplace. You might not have known that :-).
--
Mary f.~~~
|\\ /
/,\\ /
|,4-\ /
'-~~_\ /_
( ; )
( ( ) )
@__) (__@
(My cats in heat, what's new with you?)
Will Borgeson
Mary f(pud) (ma...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Terrell,
:
: While I love the "Frug", the place for your post is
: rec.food.marketplace. You might not have known that :-).
I am one of many who do not like the "Frug," and also do not like
advertising on the newsgroups...
Will
Myrna Goodman
Hey Will....add me to the list of people who don't particularly like Jeff
Smith. The food stuff is OK, but I often find his attitude toward
various ethnic groups to be demeaning. Myrna Goodman
Jody Sumrall
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96052...@boris.ucdavis.edu>,
Myrna Goodman <ez00...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> On 21 May 1996, Will Borgeson wrote:
>
> > I am one of many who do not like the "Frug," and also do not like
> > advertising on the newsgroups...
> >
> >
> Hey Will....add me to the list of people who don't particularly like Jeff
> Smith. The food stuff is OK, but I often find his attitude toward
> various ethnic groups to be demeaning.
*giggle*
Like when the Frug says, "The <ethnic group> are such a ________ people."?
Fill in the blank above with any of these phrases:
a. charming
b. lovely
c. fascinating
d. wise
e. interesting
Any more?
Jody
P.S. Apologies in advance to any fans of the Frug. Personally, I can't
stand him. But I enjoy-the-heck-out-of watching him and snickering my way
through a lazy Saturday morning.
Mary f(pud)
Jody Sumrall wrote:
>
> Like when the Frug says, "The <ethnic group> are such a ________ people."?
>
> Fill in the blank above with any of these phrases:
> a. charming
> b. lovely
> c. fascinating
> d. wise
> e. interesting
>
> Any more?
>
> Jody
>
you forgot "georgeous!"
> P.S. Apologies in advance to any fans of the Frug. Personally, I can't
> stand him. But I enjoy-the-heck-out-of watching him and snickering my way
> through a lazy Saturday morning.
I happen to love him. But that's just me. Don't apolgize :-). You
like what you like, I like what I like. Heavens the world and rfc
would be really boring if we all liked the same things :-).
And I have to admit, what you wrote is SO true of the frug. :-).
Jonathan Day
In article <jodys-24059...@news-701-2207c2.stanford.edu>,
jo...@leland.stanford.edu (Jody Sumrall) wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96052...@boris.ucdavis.edu>,
>Myrna Goodman <ez00...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 21 May 1996, Will Borgeson wrote:
>>
>> > I am one of many who do not like the "Frug," and also do not like
>> > advertising on the newsgroups...
>> >
>> >
>> Hey Will....add me to the list of people who don't particularly like Jeff
>> Smith. The food stuff is OK, but I often find his attitude toward
>> various ethnic groups to be demeaning.
>Personally, I can't
>stand him. But I enjoy-the-heck-out-of watching him and snickering my way
>through a lazy Saturday morning.
In my view his 'food stuff' is not OK. It is slapdash and misses a lot of
the nuances in good cooking. He cuts too many corners.
Worse, he is hardly frugal...though he is certainly very commercial. If you
follow his advice you will end up with a kitchen full of gadgets, most of
which you can buy in expensive department stores, under his own label.
When I lived in the US I found him particularly irritating since he
appeared on the local "public" television station. His programmes were
invariably preceded by one or two lengthy advertisements (e.g. for United
Airlines) and followed by whingey requests for donations ("Don't you feel
guilty watching the Frugal Gourmet and not paying for it?").
I didn't feel guilty at all.
--
Jonathan Day
London
Seesa 2
I live in the Chicagoland ara and have watched the fFrug since his first
series here.
I feel some of her series were okie ass far as the food is concerned.
I do not like his patronizing of people in general.
Once he was talking about buying pork for dinner guests.. he more or less
said buy Loin for people you like and pork butt ot another cheaper cut for
those you dont like. It made me wonder how many people invite people over
for dinner that they DONT like? I am not talking a business dinner but a
casual type affair.
I also don't care for his pushing of other countries.. in that respect
"You MUST Visit such and such market in Rome" or "You HAVE to visit this
restuant in Hong Kong"
Well Jeff.. PAY for me to go there and SURE I will visit.
and about his "Gadgets".. I for one do not own a Suzi Garlic press, nor a
turkish coffee grinder pepper mill or a lemon reamer. I don't have the
money nor the inkling to clutter my small kitchen with things. I get by
with a couple good knives for the garlic press, A fork and strainer for
the lemon reamer and a peppermill I found at a garage sale for 50 cents.
Jeff is anything but frugal in my opinion. He talks about using the better
cuts of meat & Outrageous costing seafood..Sure he has his "Peasant"
Shows, but for much of his series its all using many things I cant afford.
I think I watch more for the history of food then the actual recipes, tho
I am not sure how accurate his food history is either.
I prefer watching the TV Food Network now.
See...@aol.com
'You can't please everyone... so you've got to please yourself."
Joel Ehrlich
Myrna Goodman wrote about Listing Of Frugal Gourmet's Video Series!
on 23 May 96 20:10:36 saying...
On 21 May 1996, Will Borgeson wrote:
> Mary f(pud) (ma...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : Terrell,
> :
> : While I love the "Frug", the place for your post is
> : rec.food.marketplace. You might not have known that :-).
>
> I am one of many who do not like the "Frug," and also do not like
> advertising on the newsgroups...
>
> Will
>
>
MG> Hey Will....add me to the list of people who don't particularly like
MG> Jeff Smith. The food stuff is OK, but I often find his attitude
MG> toward various ethnic groups to be demeaning. Myrna Goodman
And error-filled.
Joel
Will Borgeson
Jonathan Day (Jona...@energy.u-net.com) wrote:
: In my view his 'food stuff' is not OK. It is slapdash and misses a lot of
: the nuances in good cooking. He cuts too many corners.
:
: Worse, he is hardly frugal...though he is certainly very commercial. If you
: follow his advice you will end up with a kitchen full of gadgets, most of
: which you can buy in expensive department stores, under his own label.
:
: When I lived in the US I found him particularly irritating since he
: appeared on the local "public" television station. His programmes were
: invariably preceded by one or two lengthy advertisements (e.g. for United
: Airlines) and followed by whingey requests for donations ("Don't you feel
: guilty watching the Frugal Gourmet and not paying for it?").
:
: I didn't feel guilty at all.
Spot on, Jonathan. The fellow is just sooo irritating. Our local
newspaper carried his syndicated column for years, fortunately they have
finally dropped that waste of paper and ink. The man is ethnically
patronizing, slapdash, whingey, and anything but frugal *or* gourmet (I
tend to be leery of any self-styled gourmet, just as I am of restaurants
that brag of "home cooking"). Many of his recipes are very unhealthy,
given current low-fat awareness. What bugs me most though is the
predictable mediocrity of his recipes. Someow, the guy has risen way past
his leve of incompetence. We do better at home, just modifying (other
than Frug) cookbook recipes, or more typically dreaming up our own dishes
based on what's in the fridge and pantry.
Will Borgeson
Bodega Bay, CA
Mary f(pud)
Oh *sigh*, but stipulated!
:-)
L. Ravi Narasimhan
<lurk off>
>Jody Sumrall wrote:
>>
>> Like when the Frug says, "The <ethnic group> are such a ________ people."?
>>
>> Fill in the blank above with any of these phrases:
>> a. charming
>> b. lovely
>> c. fascinating
>> d. wise
>> e. interesting
>>
>> Any more?
Barbara Grizzutti-Harrison crucified "The Frug" in an essay a couple
of years ago. I found it in the Best American Short Stories anthology
from 1994 (I think, I'll have to find my copy.) Until that article, I
had only a vague idea of why I disliked that guy. The article
crystallized everything for me. It is a modern-day analog of Mark
Twain's classic "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses."
Grizzutti-Harrison picks apart the sanctimony, self-congratulation,
and downright nonsense that permeates the man's show.
Highly recommended reading for those in an ornery mood and looking to
become more so.
<lurk on>
--- Ravi Narasimhan
--
Ravi Narasimhan
Dept. of Physics, UCLA
http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~oski
WB or CM Hilbrich
68846@watt>:
Organization: Cloudnet: St. Cloud MN (320)-240-8259 login as guest
Distribution: usa
L. Ravi Narasimhan (os...@physics.ucla.edu) wrote:
: Barbara Grizzutti-Harrison crucified "The Frug" in an essay a couple
: of years ago. I found it in the Best American Short Stories anthology
: from 1994 (I think, I'll have to find my copy.) Until that article, I
: had only a vague idea of why I disliked that guy. The article
: crystallized everything for me. It is a modern-day analog of Mark
: Twain's classic "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses."
: Grizzutti-Harrison picks apart the sanctimony, self-congratulation,
: and downright nonsense that permeates the man's show.
**** Now that sounds like an article that I would like to see.. Please
look for it, and let us know where we can find it
Bill
=============================================================================
hilb...@cloudnet.com
" It's A Magical World, Hobbes, Ol' Buddy... ...Let's Go Exploring ! "
Calvin's Last Words 12/31/95
=============================================================================
Mimi Hiller
Seesa 2 wrote:
> I think I watch more for the history of food then the actual recipes, tho
> I am not sure how accurate his food history is either.
Not very accurate...nor are his shows well-researched. There were several
shows in which he prepared supposedly Jewish foods by combining milk and
meat in a single meal.
What a lame-o.
--
Mimi Hiller (mi...@cyber-kitchen.com) Mimi's Cyber Kitchen has a new home!
http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/ is rated 4 stars in NetGuide (4/96). Several
thousand links, my personal collection of recipes, and a new format...the
most comprehensive food-related site on the www!
Marcie G. Mastracci
L. Ravi Narasimhan@physi notes:
> Barbara Grizzutti-Harrison crucified "The Frug" in an essay a couple
> of years ago. I found it in the Best American Short Stories anthology
> from 1994 (I think, I'll have to find my copy.) Until that article, I
> had only a vague idea of why I disliked that guy. The article
> crystallized everything for me. It is a modern-day analog of Mark
> Twain's classic "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses."
> Grizzutti-Harrison picks apart the sanctimony, self-congratulation,
> and downright nonsense that permeates the man's show.
>
> Highly recommended reading for those in an ornery mood and looking to
> become more so.
YES! I remember reading that article, I think it originally appeared in
Harper's Magazine.
So it's a short story now?
Anyway, it is a great skewering of the frug.
Marcie
John Hobson
L. Ravi Narasimhan wrote:
>
> <lurk off>
>
> >Jody Sumrall wrote:
> >>
> >> Like when the Frug says, "The <ethnic group> are such a ________ people."?
> >>
> >> Fill in the blank above with any of these phrases:
> >> a. charming
> >> b. lovely
> >> c. fascinating
> >> d. wise
> >> e. interesting
> >>
> >> Any more?
>
> of years ago. I found it in the Best American Short Stories anthology
> from 1994 (I think, I'll have to find my copy.) Until that article, I
> had only a vague idea of why I disliked that guy. The article
> crystallized everything for me. It is a modern-day analog of Mark
> Twain's classic "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses."
> Grizzutti-Harrison picks apart the sanctimony, self-congratulation,
> and downright nonsense that permeates the man's show.
>
> Highly recommended reading for those in an ornery mood and looking to
> become more so.
This article was originally published in Harpers Magazine in 1994.
--
John Hobson |The Mahatma Gandhi was once asked, "Mr
Unix Support Group |Gandhi, what do you think of Western
Commonwealth Edison, Chicago, IL |Civilization?" He replied, "I think
jho...@ceco.ceco.com |that it would be an excellent idea."
Katherine Crosby
I can agree with the general concensus that the Frug is anything but
frugal. When his show was first on, I used to sit there watching him
closely trying to figure out what it was about his cooking that was
frugal. I thought I was missing something!
However, all criticisms aside, I have learned a lot from that show. I
learned how to cook ordinary food from my mother, and I learned how to
cook good food from the Frug! I learned how to use a chef's knife and
how to slice/chop veggies -- something which many ordinary cooks don't
have a clue about. I watch in amazement at some of my friends and
relatives trying to slice a carrot in the air with a dull paring
knife; I saw my sis-in-law actually slice open her thumb doing that
(not the first time I don't think).
I learned to use fresh garlic, to cook with wine, how to marinate and
many other things from the Frug. All you good cooks out there had to
learn these things from somewhere; I learned them from Jeff Smith.
All of us "white bread" types would still be cooking the crap out of
the spaghetti if it weren't for him.. ;-)
>I do not like his patronizing of people in general.
>Once he was talking about buying pork for dinner guests.. he more or less
>said buy Loin for people you like and pork butt ot another cheaper cut for
>those you dont like. It made me wonder how many people invite people over
>for dinner that they DONT like?
>I also don't care for his pushing of other countries.. in that respect
>"You MUST Visit such and such market in Rome" or "You HAVE to visit this
>restuant in Hong Kong"
Obviously his sense of humor (?) and his pushy enthusiasm don't go
over very well with a lot of people.
Kathy
P.S. I do have a Susi garlic press, and nobody better try to take it
away from me...
Katherine Crosby Frank Crosby
cro...@agate.net Stephanie Crosby
Millinocket, Maine
Jenny S. Johanssen
What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin. No
wonder he doesn't do Jewish cooking well!
WB or CM Hilbrich
Jenny S. Johanssen (joha...@matnet.com) wrote:
: What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin. No
*** Jenny's comment brings us back to an interesting point... Is the
interest ( which is a very important part of competence ) in Jewish
Cooking based on the Religion and Cultural background of the cook, or the
inclination of someone to learn about, and practice Jewish Cooking...
I belive that at this very moment, serious discussions are going on in the
Cyber-world to launch a Usenet news group.. The hang up appears to be
over the exact content and scope of the group's purpose and where it
should be located.. Should it be positioned with the Rec.Food groups OR
do you think that you, and wouldbe participants would want it positioned
next to the Soc.Culture.Jewish groups.....
Since sooner or later, we will all be asked to vote on these issues, your
imput is appreciated.
--
Debra Fran Baker
>Seesa 2 wrote:
>> I think I watch more for the history of food then the actual recipes, tho
>> I am not sure how accurate his food history is either.
>Not very accurate...nor are his shows well-researched. There were several
>shows in which he prepared supposedly Jewish foods by combining milk and
>meat in a single meal.
Single meal? Single *dish*! (Chicken fat in a dairy noodle kugel.)
He wrote a couple of cookbooks purporting to be Biblical. One was a
Christmas cookbook, where he decided to include a couple of "Chanukah"
recipes that Joseph and Mary (etc) might have eaten. The brisket was
served with sour cream or something. Ooops.
Another was supposedly Biblical recipes, complete with acknowledgements
to university Biblical scholars (none, of course, Jewish.) Suspecting
the worst, I turned to the meat section. Lamb with yogurt.
Great research, Frug.
(The best book I know on that subject is _Eat and Be Satisfied_,
otherwise known as the perfect gift - a social history of Jewish food,
including a section on Biblical foods. It doesn't give hints on actual
preparation, but it's still fascinating.)
Debra
--
Rabbi Shimon [ben Netanel] said "...And be not evil in your own sight."
Ethics of the Fathers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Debra Fran Baker dfb...@panix.com
L. Ravi Narasimhan
In <4oq0qj$k...@service-2.agate.net> cro...@agate.net (Katherine Crosby) writes:
[ Learning from the Frug ]
>I learned to use fresh garlic, to cook with wine, how to marinate and
>many other things from the Frug. All you good cooks out there had to
>learn these things from somewhere; I learned them from Jeff Smith.
I watch cooking shows every few months when I feel like cooking
something rather than opening a can. I watched The Frug a few times
some years ago in the hopes of learning some simple skills such as you
mentioned. One problem with most of the shows I've seen is that one
can watch up to a certain point and say, "Yes, I could learn to do
that with some practice." And then at some stage in the process, the
chef brings out some bizarre contraption to process an intermediate.
These contraptions are usually rare, expensive, and sold only through the
chef's 800 number. Occasionally they are gasoline-powered.
This is rather like watching "New Yankee Workshop," when Norm leads
one through the easy steps of measuring, cutting, and attaching. And
then he whips out the high powered CO2 laser lathe with computer
control and the magnetically-levitated part chuck with integral
spinner to do the crucial step.
Another problem with The Frug is his insistence of inflicting
everything with chicken stock and/or rendered pig fat. Not fun for us
vegetarians.
I suggest hooking him up with Martha Stewart and sending them on a
long, LONG honeymoon. If we all sent one dollar...
Ruth Donenfeld
... Is the
>interest ( which is a very important part of competence ) in Jewish
>Cooking based on the Religion and Cultural background of the cook, or
the
>inclination of someone to learn about, and practice Jewish Cooking...
>
> I belive that at this very moment, serious discussions are going on
in the Cyber-world to launch a Usenet news group.. The hang up appears
to be
> over the exact content and scope of the group's purpose and where it
> should be located.. Should it be positioned with the Rec.Food groups
>OR do you think that you, and wouldbe participants would want it
>positioned next to the Soc.Culture.Jewish groups.....
I think it depends on what you want this news group to project. I was
brought up in a strictly kosher home-my mother was Russian/Polish, my
father was German-both were Orthodox Jews. I married a Romanian. In my
parents home, I ate kosher but food from Russia, Poland, Hungary,
Germany--in fact the entire Bread Basket of Europe. When I was in my
own home, I cooked all that plus Romanian, Italian, Chinese, etc. I
have made many other ethnic-style food kosher so my parents could eat
it. Even in Israel the cooking is so diverse you cannot say what is
especially Jewish.
Do you want limits? If so, what will they be?
WB or CM Hilbrich
**** The question is: Should a USENET News group on Jewish Cooking be
positioned as a Soc.Culture group or a Rec.Food Group:
Ruth Donenfeld (sy...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I think it depends on what you want this news group to project. I was
: brought up in a strictly kosher home-my mother was Russian/Polish, my
: father was German-both were Orthodox Jews. I married a Romanian. In my
: parents home, I ate kosher but food from Russia, Poland, Hungary,
: Germany--in fact the entire Bread Basket of Europe. When I was in my
: own home, I cooked all that plus Romanian, Italian, Chinese, etc. I
: have made many other ethnic-style food kosher so my parents could eat
: it. Even in Israel the cooking is so diverse you cannot say what is
: especially Jewish.
: Do you want limits? If so, what will they be?
*** So. Are you suggesting that Jewish Cooking.. at least strickly kosher,
is a Cultural concept that transends all ethnic and regional boundries,
or is it a subdivision of Cooking methods and styles.
Yes.. it is tempting to say BOTH, but if you ( and here I mean ALL of you
who are still reading this) were to try to sort out where to put this new
group, where would it be ???
Bill
Debra Fran Baker
The Jewish-food mailing list had a long...discussion about what
constitutes Jewish food.
There are no truly, absolutely Jewish dishes, except possibly cholent (the
long cooked stew begun Friday afternoon and kept warm until Saturday lunch
to satisfy the need for a hot meat meal without violating the law about
starting fires or cooking). At best, we have adaptations of local cuisine
to Jewish needs and dietary laws. If you look around New York City, there
are Moroccan, Indian, French, Chinese, Japanese and Italian kosher
restaurants. There are also pizza and fast-food chicken and burger
places. The only thing "Jewish" about these places is their adherence to
the kosher laws (and that they are closed on the Sabbath.)
So, the recipes on a Jewish food newsgroup should be kosher by default -
no pork, no shellfish (or catfish or shark) and no combinations of meat
and dairy. It also makes sense not to mention brand names. If someone
really feels the need to post a recipe or technique that is not kosher,
then they should say so (an NK in the subject header should be
sufficient.) Please note - I am not saying that the folks who do not
keep kosher are any less Jewish or do not run Jewish homes. It's that we
have adequate outlets for non-kosher recipes - such as right here on
rec.food.cooking. We don't have such for kosher ones.
But the conversation would be far more than recipes. It would be favorite
Sabbath and holiday meals. It would be ways to adapt non-kosher recipes,
or to make meat or dairy dishes pareve, or simply to make meals that
taste similar to non-kosher treates (my mother-in-law has a club salad
sandwich, using Bacos, for example.) It would also be family recipes,
which may or may not be kosher.
Nyani-Iisha Martin
Jenny S. Johanssen (joha...@matnet.com) wrote:
: What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin. No
: wonder he doesn't do Jewish cooking well!
Well, I doubt he can't cook Jewish food because he's supposedly Lebanese.
It's probably much more likely that he can't because he won't be careful
enough in his research.
Ny
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Nyani-Iisha F. Martin nfma...@fas.harvard.edu
" And dammit, when I say something really kinky I take full credit
for it." ----Chuck Truesdell,on Alt.fan.karl-malden.nose.
WB or CM Hilbrich
$k...@panix.com>:
Debra Fran Baker (dfb...@panix.com) wrote:
: The Jewish-food mailing list had a long...discussion about what
: constitutes Jewish food.
**** And in this discussion, did they address the Location of a proposed
Jewish Food Newsgroup.... Soc.Culture.Jewish.Cooking (OR)
Rec.Food.Jewish Cooking.
: But the conversation would be far more than recipes. It would be favorite
: Sabbath and holiday meals. It would be ways to adapt non-kosher recipes,
: or to make meat or dairy dishes pareve, or simply to make meals that
: taste similar to non-kosher treates (my mother-in-law has a club salad
: sandwich, using Bacos, for example.) It would also be family recipes,
: which may or may not be kosher.
: Debra
: --
**** Now, this looks like an adaptation of Religious/Culture Needs...
Again is that Soc.Culture (or) Rec.Food.Cooking. Which is more
important: The need to celebrate a religion/cultural concept while
cooking, or the need to cook in a manner consistant with requirements
of a religion/cultural context. And again, I am asking any and all
of you who have been interested to read this far.
--
r...@usa.pipeline.com
I heard him talk about the issue of frugality many years ago. I think that
his shtick is that you use very good ingredients but using them frugally.
I like his enthusiasm about food from around the world. I think his central
point about "foreign" dishes is that they are what make up so much of
American cooking. Therefore, we ought to celebrate them. I will be forever
grateful for his including Lithuanian cooking in his book about our
immigrant ancestors. I'm of Lithuanian background. And he's the only cook I
know who has ever devoted any time to our heritage.
I think he is genuinely sincere in his enthusiasm. In a world where there
is so much bitterness I like his "coming together through food" point of
view.
And as far as the remark about buying loin of pork for people you like and
cheaper cuts for those you don't...I think he is also assuming that we only
cook for people we like including ourselves. So, the implication here is
that we should always buy the loin. In the long run it's a healthier cut
and more frugal because of the low fat content. It was just a funny, silly
way to get us to buy the best for ourselves. Sheesh!!!
Anyway, why watch a TV program when it only makes you irritated? What I
define as enthusiasm you interpret as pushy. So change the channel. For
some reason there's a French cook who really turns me off. I can't
remember his name but he's always baking things on his "cookie shit"...you
know the guy. He makes wonderful recipes, but I just can't stand him!
So...I don't watch.
One of these years, the frug may flop over dead into a bowl of something
unpronouncable (sp?) and I for one will miss him.
Helen
Vince Vielhaber
In article <4ot4jf$k...@panix.com>, dfb...@panix.com says...
>
>But the conversation would be far more than recipes. It would be favorite
>Sabbath and holiday meals. It would be ways to adapt non-kosher recipes,
>or to make meat or dairy dishes pareve, or simply to make meals that
>taste similar to non-kosher treates (my mother-in-law has a club salad
>sandwich, using Bacos, for example.) It would also be family recipes,
>which may or may not be kosher.
Actually the question is less about being in the soc heirarchy but more
about being *where* in the rec.food heirarchy.
In this style of food preparation, do you bake besides cooking? It's my
feeling that if it's to be proposed in the rec.food heirarchy, then it
should have it's own subtree. Eventually there will be a Polish group
proposed, then maybe a French, a Mexican, etc. They all have their own
unique styles, they cook, they bake, etc. It seems they should have their
own sub-heirarchy.
Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: v...@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null
Database Manager Michigan Area Repeater Council
# include <std/disclaimers.h> TEAM-OS2
==========================================================================
Shankar Bhattacharyya
I suggest we let the subject of a Jewish food group be. We'll be
dealing with it full-blown soon enough. When that happens we'll have a
real proposal to discuss.
Meanwhile, let the proponents get their part of the process organized.
The proposal will make a complicated argument. The proponents have
been working on it for a fair amount of time, on the Jewish food
mailing list and off. There will be controversy. There will be
contention. I assume there will be a reasonable pre-RFD. Time enough
to deal with this when that happens.
- Shankar
r...@usa.pipeline.com
On Jun 02, 1996 11:10:36 in article <Re: Patronizing Frug>,
'os...@physics.ucla.edu (L. Ravi Narasimhan)' wrote:
>Another problem with The Frug is his insistence of inflicting
>everything with chicken stock and/or rendered pig fat. Not fun for us
>vegetarians.
>
means that you couldn't be happy with 95% of all the cooking shows.
Puhleez!
Helen
Cathy Koos
Why not substitute a good vegetable stock for the chicken
stock? If the type of stock is the only thing keeping a
recipe from being vegetarian, it's easily adaptable.
I'm sure I'd still watch the cooking shows even if I were a
vegetarian. Heck, I watch the cooking shows even though I
can't AFFORD a lot of the ingredients featured! I watch
them for techniques more than anything, and as a spark for
my own creativity.
--
Cathy Koos
ck...@usa.pipeline.com
Be a lifesaver...sign an organ donor card.
Nancy Dooley
In article <4ot3ft$8...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com> r...@usa.pipeline.com(r...@usa.pipeline.com) writes:
>From: r...@usa.pipeline.com(r...@usa.pipeline.com)
>Subject: Re: Patronizing Frug
>Date: 2 Jun 1996 22:10:05 GMT
>I heard him talk about the issue of frugality many years ago. I think that
>his shtick is that you use very good ingredients but using them frugally.
>
The explanation I heard was that he felt "frugal" was making use of everything
- not wasting anything.
Nancy Dooley
"Celebrate our State." Iowa's Sesquicentennial year, 1846-1996.
Terry Pogue
Didn't the Frug have by-pass surgery some years ago? I always found it
odd that he would continue to really seem to love to cook without
regard to fat. I tend not to like his recipes but I enjoy his
"lessons" Do you suppose Craig will take over for Jeff one of these
days?
--
Terry's Audiobooks
http://www.cuc.edu/~wgts/Audio/audbook.html
Talk Radio Page
http://www.idsonline.com/terraflora/index.html
L. Ravi Narasimhan
In <4oupmh$4...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com> r...@usa.pipeline.com(r...@usa.pipeline.com) writes:
>On Jun 02, 1996 11:10:36 in article <Re: Patronizing Frug>,
>'os...@physics.ucla.edu (L. Ravi Narasimhan)' wrote:
>
>
>>Another problem with The Frug is his insistence of inflicting
>>everything with chicken stock and/or rendered pig fat. Not fun for us
>>vegetarians.
>
>Why would anyone watch the frug for 5min. if they were a vegetarian? That
>means that you couldn't be happy with 95% of all the cooking shows.
>Puhleez!
This was some years ago when I began watching him. I had no a priori
knowledge of his repertoire. There are several cooking shows I have
seen (although I can't name them at the moment) where there was at
least something that could be eaten by a vegetarian.
But, perhaps you are right, it may be an unreasonable expectation.
Ruth Donenfeld
In <4ot11o$6...@orion.cloudnet.com> hilb...@cloudnet.com (WB or CM
Hilbrich) writes:
>
>Yes.. it is tempting to say BOTH, but if you ( and here I mean ALL of
you
>who are still reading this) were to try to sort out where to put this
new
That is the problem--it IS both. Jews have and are living all over the
world. They have never had a 'home' as other ethnic groups. Not until
the '40s have they been able to really identify with a country. And
when you visit Israel, you would see such a diversified table-it is
wonderful. It is like trying to find out what causes a person to
become what he is--nature or nurture. To me it must be combined.
Martha McLemore
Once upon a time, "Jenny S. Johanssen" <joha...@matnet.com>
wrote:
>What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin. No
>wonder he doesn't do Jewish cooking well!
What does that have to do with anything?! He doesn't cook
ANYTHING very well, because he's a mediocre cook...period! If it
weren't for his staff of chefs and other kitchen help, he'd have
been off the air a long time ago. (Maybe not; Nathalie Dupree is
still on and I haven't seen anyone do as poorly as she does,
except in my own kitchen, of course.)
Jeff Smith's inability to prepare any cuisine well has nothing to
do with whether his ancestors came from Lebanon or Sweden or
Africa or Ireland or China or ancient Peru or...pick your
favorite country.
Martha McLemore
mo...@sun-link.com
LeiG
In article <4ot3ft$8...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
r...@usa.pipeline.com(r...@usa.pipeline.com) writes:
>I think he is genuinely sincere in his enthusiasm. In a world where there
>is so much bitterness I like his "coming together through food" point of
>view.
Thank you so much for your defense of Jeff Smith. I often watched him and
Maybe
I am dense, but I could not see what others were complaining about. But
different
strokes for different folks. He is not always Frugal, but I learn from
him. and If
someone does not like a show, then change the channel. I do not care for
Caprial's cafe(sp) but I know people who do and that is their choice. I
think the
french guy you mention,might be Jacques Pepin. I do not know for sure. But
I have seen him a few times, not enough to have an informed opinion. My
daily
person is Biba's Italian Kitchen.
Lei
:-) When you hear somebody sighing and eating with his eyes closed,
Then you know somebody in the kitchen kept her eyes wide open.
*Princess Pamela*
Have a great day.!
Will Borgeson
LeiG (le...@aol.com) wrote:
: If : someone does not like a show, then change the channel.
If people don't "like" a show, but feel like watching it anyway
for "entertainment," i.e. hammering it, they have the right to do that as
well, and to post their opinions here. If you don't like their comments,
ignore them...
Will
Ellen Cotter
Every time I see the words "Patronizing Frug", I keep thinking it's a
new dance craze that's sweeping the country. Does anyone else have the
same thought? If there were truly a dance called the "Patronizing Frug",
what characteristics would it have?
Ellen "Do a little dance, make a little quiche, get down tonight"
Terry Pogue
You know what. The Frug would love this thread. I don't make any of
his dishes. He is not my favorite cooking show but I do enjoy him.
L. Ravi Narasimhan
>Every time I see the words "Patronizing Frug", I keep thinking it's a
>new dance craze that's sweeping the country. Does anyone else have
>the
>same thought? If there were truly a dance called the "Patronizing
>Frug",
>what characteristics would it have?
Allan Sherman once asked "What in the heck is 'The Frug'??" I believe
it was in his song, "Crazy Downtown." I imagine that the Patronizing
Frug would look very much like The Church Lady's "Superior Dance."
>You know what. The Frug would love this thread. I don't make any of
>his dishes. He is not my favorite cooking show but I do enjoy him.
I'm sure these folks like any publicity, as long as their names are
spelled correctly. I'll henceforth refer to him as Geoff Smyth.
Nyani-Iisha Martin
Will Borgeson (szbo...@dale.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: LeiG (le...@aol.com) wrote:
: : If : someone does not like a show, then change the channel.
: If people don't "like" a show, but feel like watching it anyway
: for "entertainment," i.e. hammering it, they have the right to do that as
: well, and to post their opinions here.
So those who don't like the show can insult it to high heaven, while those
who do like it must remain silent? What a lovely double standard you
espouse.
: If you don't like their comments,
: ignore them...
Why? Comments are made publically to be publically noted and responded
to. What gives your comments, or those you agree with, any particular
sanctity and defence from challenge?
Ny Martin
jeanine
sy...@ix.netcom.com(Ruth Donenfeld ) wrote:
Ok, I KNOW I will get flamed, but please understand, this is a serious
question I am NOT trying to start anything rotten at all! Why is it
that jewish is an ethnic group? I always figure religion is seperate
from ethnic group. I can be swedish and jewish, or indian and
catholic..ethnic and a religion, seperate from each other..Can someone
explain please?
OB Food: Had a great dinner last night using them thar beans everyone
was kind enought o give me tips on..Made beans and rice, to go with
some jerked chicken, and salad..Chicken on the grill of course(good
weather must grill!) Thanks for the help all!
Jeanine,
People Are Born Originals,
But Most Die Copies.
--------John L. Mason
John Hobson
jeanine wrote:
>
> Ok, I KNOW I will get flamed, but please understand, this is a serious
> question I am NOT trying to start anything rotten at all! Why is it
> that jewish is an ethnic group? I always figure religion is seperate
> from ethnic group. I can be swedish and jewish, or indian and
> catholic..ethnic and a religion, seperate from each other..Can someone
> explain please?
> OB Food: Had a great dinner last night using them thar beans everyone
> was kind enought o give me tips on..Made beans and rice, to go with
> some jerked chicken, and salad..Chicken on the grill of course(good
> weather must grill!) Thanks for the help all!
I will try to clear it up a bit for you. Among Jews, the accepted
definition of "who is a Jew?" is "one born of a Jewish mother." Now,
I am a practicing Catholic (I say that if I keep practicing, maybe I'll
get it right), indeed, I am a former priest. HOWEVER, my mother is a
Jew. She has never become a Christian. Therefore, in the eyes of many,
including the Orthodox, I am Jewish. I may have fallen away from
Yiddusheit, but if I were to ask for admittance into the Jewish
community, I would not have to go through the conversion process.
Going back to my mother, she may have never become Christian, but she
has never been a practicing religious Jew either. She does not keep
kosher, and I have certainly been to more Seders than she has (I have
one every year, to remind myself of "what the Lord our God, blessed be
He, has done for me in rescuing me from slavery in Egypt"). However,
there is no doubt in anyone's mind, including my mother's, that she is
Jewish.
Therefore, I would say that the distinction is this: Judaism is a
religion, but the Jews are a people. And while it is true to say
that all who practice Judaism are Jews, the converse is not true.
-
--
John Hobson |The Mahatma Gandhi was once asked, "Mr
Unix Support Group |Gandhi, what do you think of Western
Commonwealth Edison, Chicago, IL |Civilization?" He replied, "I think
jho...@ceco.ceco.com |that it would be an excellent idea."
Phaedra A Hise
I vote that we all start writing in and asking for more Craig. Then maybe
he'll take over, since he's doing all the cooking anyway.
--
____________________________________________________
* Phaedra Hise * pha...@world.std.com * phaedr...@inc.com *
"Remember--no matter where you go, there you are." --Buckaroo Banzai
KATHYKNITS
In article <4p2r44$q...@ns2.ptd.net>, bea...@mail.prolog.net (jeanine)
writes:
>
>Ok, I KNOW I will get flamed, but please understand, this is a serious
>question I am NOT trying to start anything rotten at all! Why is it
>that jewish is an ethnic group? I always figure religion is seperate
>from ethnic group. I can be swedish and jewish, or indian and
>catholic..ethnic and a religion, seperate from each other..Can someone
>explain please?
Jeanine, or is it (jeanine)?
I will probably get to enjoy the same flames as you, as I also, am of the
persuasion that 'Jewish Cooking', taken literally, means no more then, a
Jewish person who cooks. If there exsists Jewish Cooking, then it stands
to reason, that there also exists, Catholic Cooking, Muslim Cooking,
Taoist Cooking, etc.
As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
South Africa for instance, who have never heard of, let alone eaten,
matzah balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring, knishes,
etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen to
be indigenous to regions, that were once predominately populated by people
who, also, happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of
Italian descent, who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are
generally, and predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic' food?
The confusion, and misunderstanding lies in the concept of method of
preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot think
of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the non Kosher ingredients, and to
then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
The concept that there exists 'Jewish Food', and those who zealously
promote this idea, is another brick in the wall, that pervasively
perpetuates discrimination. Oy!
Shalom,
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
P.S. It would be more respectful of, and would attach more credibility
to, those in this news group, when making their arguments, when, and if,
in the future, more care were taken, in allocating the use of upper, and
lower case letters, specifically, when refering to, peoples, countries,
and religions, and, especially when writing about topics that could be
construed by some, to be of such a sensitive nature, as represented in the
aforementioned. This courtesy would in no way impinge on any ones'
anonymity. Thank you.
PENMART
>>
>>>Yes.. it is tempting to say BOTH, but if you ( and here I mean ALL of
>>you
>>>who are still reading this) were to try to sort out where to put this
>>new
>>>group, where would it be ???(cultural or ethnic)
>
>>That is the problem--it IS both. Jews have and are living all over the
>>world. They have never had a 'home' as other ethnic groups. Not until
>>the '40s have they been able to really identify with a country. And
>>when you visit Israel, you would see such a diversified table-it is
>>wonderful. It is like trying to find out what causes a person to
>>become what he is--nature or nurture. To me it must be combined.
>>
>
>Ok, I KNOW I will get flamed, but please understand, this is a serious
>question I am NOT trying to start anything rotten at all! Why is it
>that jewish is an ethnic group? I always figure religion is seperate
>from ethnic group. I can be swedish and jewish, or indian and
>catholic..ethnic and a religion, seperate from each other..Can someone
>explain please?
>OB Food: Had a great dinner last night using them thar beans everyone
>was kind enought o give me tips on..Made beans and rice, to go with
>some jerked chicken, and salad..Chicken on the grill of course(good
>weather must grill!) Thanks for the help all!
>
>
>
>
>
Jeanine, or is it (jeanine)?
I will probably get to enjoy the same flames as you, as I also, am of the
persuasion that 'Jewish Cooking' taken literally, means no more then,
cooked by a Jewish person. If there exists Jewish Cooking, then it stands
to reason, that there also exists, Catholic Cooking, Muslim Cooking,
Taoist Cooking, etc.
As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
South Africa, for instance, who have never heard of, let alone eaten,
matzoh balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring, knishes,
etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen to
be indigenous to regions, that were once populated by people who, also,
happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of Italian descent,
who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are generally, and
predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic Food'?
The confusion, and misunderstanding, lies in the concept of method of
preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot think
of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the Non-Kosher ingredients, and to
then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
The concept that there exists 'Jewish Food', and those who zealously
promote this notion, is just another brick in the wall, that pervasively
perpetuates discrimination. Oy!
Shalom,
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
P.S. It would be more respectful of, and would attach more credibility
to, those in this news group, when making their arguments, when, and if,
in the future, more care were taken, in allocating the use of upper, and
lower case letters, specifically, when refering to, peoples, countries,
and religion, and especially when writing about topics that could be
construed by some, to be of such a sensitive nature, as represented in the
aforementioned. This courtesy would in no way impinge on any ones
anonymity. Thank you all, for your consideration in this matter.
jeanine
kathy...@aol.com (KATHYKNITS) wrote:
snip my stuff..
>Jeanine, or is it (jeanine)?
either or..I am too lazy for capitals sometimes..actually just
forgetful..i have decided I have half-heimers as a result of the years
I spent taking care of alzheimers patients..(No all, not being
mean..its a healthcare thing)
snip most of a good answer
>The concept that there exists 'Jewish Food', and those who zealously
>promote this idea, is another brick in the wall, that pervasively
>perpetuates discrimination. Oy!
Having grown up in a Jewish family, I am somewhat familiar(they were
mostly non practicing, unless we were at my grandparents house) with
Kosher cooking, so I do understand what you said..thanks and well put!
>Shalom,
>Sheldon Martin
>pen...@aol.com
>P.S. It would be more respectful of, and would attach more credibility
>to, those in this news group, when making their arguments, when, and if,
>in the future, more care were taken, in allocating the use of upper, and
>lower case letters, specifically, when refering to, peoples, countries,
>and religions, and, especially when writing about topics that could be
>construed by some, to be of such a sensitive nature, as represented in the
>aforementioned. This courtesy would in no way impinge on any ones'
>anonymity. Thank you.
And sorry about the capitals problem..I am usually in a hurry to get
off the computer so hubby can get on it for work stuff. I am
careless about spelling, grammar and punctuation for everyone of all
races, faiths,shapes, sizes, colors and whatever else..so Sorry if I
offended anyone by my lack of capitals, it was totally
unintentional...
Mary f(pud)
Nyani-Iisha Martin wrote:
>
> Jenny S. Johanssen (joha...@matnet.com) wrote:
> : What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin. No
> : wonder he doesn't do Jewish cooking well!
>
> It's probably much more likely that he can't because he won't be careful
> enough in his research.
>
Um... I think his roots are Norwegian, does this man even resemble Lebanese...EXCUSE
ME!! (sorry, sorry, forgive my hollaring :-) ).
--
Mary f.~~~
|\\ /
/,\\ /
|,4-\ /
'-~~_\ /_
( ; )
( ( ) )
@__) (__@
(My cats in heat, what's new with you?)
Mary f(pud)
Ack!!! I'm probably the sap here :-). But I do like the frug. I own most of
his books. Just because I like reading the history of the food. And yes
I do understand he has made mistakes (I've yet to check them out...one day when
time permits). However, Many of the recipes I have posted to this group are
from his books and i usually post the source. And the feedback on these recipes
has been great! Yes, I Do attribute many of the recipes to craig (at least the
frug acknowleges this, where Martha does *IT* all hersef).
*sigh* In part the man is just spitting out what others have told him.
--
Mary f.~~~(stopping while she still has a foot in her mouth!!!)
Arthur Wouk
In article <4p4v2f$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
KATHYKNITS <kathy...@aol.com> wrote:
...
>
>As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
>matzah balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring, knishes,
>etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen to
i will start here. this is false. South African Jewry received a
significant influx from various regions of the pre WWO russian
empire, including an uncle of mine. he and his children knew all about
such matters, as do the many south afrrican jews i have encountered
who reside on this continent.
there are not that many strains of world jewry. those from the regions
of what is now belarus, and ukraine and the baltic countries and
poland represent the major source of immigration to the americas, and
south africa too, during the mass emmigration from about 1880 to 1920.
they brought their cuisine with them. there was an earlier german
jewish emigration to the US which brought its cuisine with it. there
are the various sephardi communities, and these are the major source
of different cuisines. there are the ethiopians, and the non-sephardi
jews from arab countries (yemen for instance) and the those from the
long settlement in india. not quite inclusive, but a pretty good
listing. most of the mid-eastern and mediteranean, non-ashkenizic jews
have a lot in common, since the cuisines of their surrounding
environment have a lot in common.
>be indigenous to regions, that were once predominately populated by people
>who, also, happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of
>Italian descent, who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are
>generally, and predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic' food?
no, but the italian jews had a distinctive cuisine, recognized as such
within italy (and often said to be the finest in rome by romans) for
instance.
>The confusion, and misunderstanding lies in the concept of method of
>preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot think
>of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
>is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the non Kosher ingredients, and to
>then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
but you usually don't get the same dish! there's the rub.
--
arthur wouk **********Hail*Dogbert*****
internet: wo...@nilenet.com * Make it possible for
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * programmers to write in
English, and you will find that they can't write in English
Sharon Raghavachary
In <DsJE1...@world.std.com> pha...@world.std.com (Phaedra A Hise)
writes:
He's cuter too.....
But then, I don't get out much.
Sharon Raghavachary
David Auerbach
In message <4p55rl$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> - pen...@aol.com (PENMART)
writes:
:>
:>I will probably get to enjoy the same flames as you, as I also, am of the
:>persuasion that 'Jewish Cooking' taken literally, means no more then,
:>cooked by a Jewish person. If there exists Jewish Cooking, then it stands
:>to reason, that there also exists, Catholic Cooking, Muslim Cooking,
:>Taoist Cooking, etc.
:>
:>As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
:>South Africa, for instance, who have never heard of, let alone eaten,
:>matzoh balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring, knishes,
:>etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen to
:>be indigenous to regions, that were once populated by people who, also,
:>happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of Italian descent,
:>who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are generally, and
:>predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic Food'?
:>
:>The confusion, and misunderstanding, lies in the concept of method of
:>preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot think
:>of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
:>is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the Non-Kosher ingredients, and to
:>then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
:>
:>The concept that there exists 'Jewish Food', and those who zealously
:>promote this notion, is just another brick in the wall, that pervasively
:>perpetuates discrimination. Oy!
:>
Somehow I doubt that the existence of Jewish food perpetuates discrimination.
One reason the analogy to Catholic food breaks down is that being Jewish
doesn't only denote a religion. I'm both Jewish and an atheist and such a
combination has a long and honorable history in Jewish communities, including
in modern day Israel. Secondly, as a matter of food history, there are
distincitive Jewish cuisines, falling into two main types, Eastern European
(Ashkenazic) and Mediterreanean (Sephardic). These are found relatively
intact (with the obvious adaptations for local ingredients and conditions)
where migrations happened. Not a deep point. I have in my library a book on
the cooking of the Jews of India.
Finally, I fail to understand what Kosher has to do with it. Of course Jewish
cuisines were influenced by dietary laws in observaant communities, so that
pork and shrimp dishes are rare. And of course it is somewhat hard to make a
kosher cheeseburger.
____________________________________________
David Auerbach auer...@unity.ncsu.edu
Department of Philosophy & Religion
Box 8103
NCSU
Raleigh, NC 27695-8103
PENMART
In article <4p55rl$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pen...@aol.com (PENMART)
writes:
>Jeanine, or is it (jeanine)?
>
>I will probably get to enjoy the same flames as you, as I also, am of the
>persuasion that 'Jewish Cooking' taken literally, means no more then,
>cooked by a Jewish person. If there exists Jewish Cooking, then it stands
>to reason, that there also exists, Catholic Cooking, Muslim Cooking,
>Taoist Cooking, etc.
>
>As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
>South Africa, for instance, who have never heard of, let alone eaten,
>matzoh balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring, knishes,
>etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen to
>be indigenous to regions, that were once populated by people who, also,
>happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of Italian descent,
>who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are generally, and
>predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic Food'?
>
>The confusion, and misunderstanding, lies in the concept of method of
>preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot
think
>of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
>is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the Non-Kosher ingredients, and
to
>then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
>
>The concept that there exists 'Jewish Food', and those who zealously
>promote this notion, is just another brick in the wall, that pervasively
>perpetuates discrimination. Oy!
>
>Shalom,
>
>Sheldon Martin
>pen...@aol.com
>
>P.S. It would be more respectful of, and would attach more credibility
>to, those in this news group, when making their arguments, when, and if,
>in the future, more care were taken, in allocating the use of upper, and
>lower case letters, specifically, when refering to, peoples, countries,
>and religion, and especially when writing about topics that could be
>construed by some, to be of such a sensitive nature, as represented in
the
>aforementioned. This courtesy would in no way impinge on any ones
>anonymity. Thank you all, for your consideration in this matter.
>
>
>
Sorry about duplicate posting, see previous post, computer error, MINE.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
PENMART
In article <4p5o5c$m...@ra.nilenet.com>, aw...@ra.nilenet.com (Arthur Wouk)
writes:
>>
>>As an example, there are many Jewish people, in all parts of the world,
>>South Africa for instance, who have never heard of, let alone eaten,
>>matzah balls, lox, shav, borscht, gefilte fish, pickled herring,
knishes,
>>etc. These, and many others, are all ethnic dishes, which just happen
to
>
>i will start here. this is false. South African Jewry received a
>significant influx from various regions of the pre WWO russian
>empire, including an uncle of mine. he and his children knew all about
>such matters, as do the many south afrrican jews i have encountered
>who reside on this continent.
>
>there are not that many strains of world jewry. those from the regions
>of what is now belarus, and ukraine and the baltic countries and
>poland represent the major source of immigration to the americas, and
>south africa too, during the mass emmigration from about 1880 to 1920.
>they brought their cuisine with them. there was an earlier german
>jewish emigration to the US which brought its cuisine with it. there
>are the various sephardi communities, and these are the major source
>of different cuisines. there are the ethiopians, and the non-sephardi
>jews from arab countries (yemen for instance) and the those from the
>long settlement in india. not quite inclusive, but a pretty good
>listing. most of the mid-eastern and mediteranean, non-ashkenizic jews
>have a lot in common, since the cuisines of their surrounding
>environment have a lot in common.
>
>
>
>
>
>>be indigenous to regions, that were once predominately populated by
people
>>who, also, happened to be Jewish. Should we say that the people of
>>Italian descent, who emigrated to New York's Little Italy, and who are
>>generally, and predominately Catholic, eat 'Catholic' food?
>
>no, but the italian jews had a distinctive cuisine, recognized as such
>within italy (and often said to be the finest in rome by romans) for
>instance.
>
>>The confusion, and misunderstanding lies in the concept of method of
>>preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot
think
>>of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs do,
>>is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the non Kosher ingredients, and
to
>>then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
>
>
>but you usually don't get the same dish! there's the rub.
>--
>arthur wouk **********Hail*Dogbert*****
>internet: wo...@nilenet.com * Make it possible for
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * programmers to write in
>English, and you will find that they can't write in English
>
>
I notice your key board DOES employ upper case letters, which you chose
to omit, in order to add weight to your protest, albiet, dead weight.
Every one knows somebody who... but, is that what makes for a good
example in ones argument? I think not. It tends to have the opposite
effect. Also, referering to any people as "STRAINS', exemplifies the
epitomy of bigotry!
I prefer to wait for someone who is in possession of finer character to
come along, before continuing this sensitive discussion.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
PENMART
In article <4p6hsn$m...@newsgate.duke.edu>, auer...@unity.ncsu.edu (David
Auerbach) writes:
> I'm both Jewish and an atheist and such a
>combination has a long and honorable history in Jewish communities,
including
>in modern day Israel. Secondly, as a matter of food history, there are
>distincitive Jewish cuisines, falling into two main types, Eastern
European
>(Ashkenazic) and Mediterreanean (Sephardic).
David,
You definitely have a right to refer to yourself as you wish, but those
who choose to subscribe to being a Jewish Atheist, per se, are
anachronistically out of sync. with the generally accepted standards of
modern society, and you therefore are basing your position on something
that is the exception, rather than the rule. Here again, as I already
stated, we all know somebody who... but, this juxtiposition, makes for a
very weak argument, albiet, there will always be those who can
rationalize, and convince themselves of anything. To simultanously, be an
adherent to any religion, and also atheism, in recent times, constitutes a
fine example of an oxymoron.
There are far more then two examples of cusine that Jewish people partake
of, and whatever the origins of a particular food that any religous group
generally is accustomed to eating, in no way attributes that food to any
particular religion, but rather to the particular region that that food is
consistant with. Whatever foods a group of people have a propensity for
is a product of their ethnic, rather than their religious roots, and
considering the nomadic way of life that the Jewish people led, is even
more reason not to attribute their diet to their religion, but to where
they have been.
You must agree, that not too long ago, most foods did not travel well,
except for the very few items that could be preserved well enough, and so
then, even as in modern times, people ate what was generally available in
a particular location, and these foods, logically become the foods of the
people who resided in that particular locale. It is only recently that
people have access to the foods that are indigenous to the lands of their
ancesters, and now people of all persuasions will partake of this bounty,
mostly out of interest, and because most taste good to them. To wit, note
the people in this news group, who are of varied heritage, who rush to
exchange recipes with each other, and, I have yet to observe anyone
concerned with asking what religion these particular ingredients are
attributable to, only the place of origin, what ethnic market sells them,
or how a particular ethnic group goes about its preparation.
In closing, I will make an interesting point for you to consider. Most
times when the movies from the 30s, and 40s were made that depicted
African scenes, of which there were many, Tarzan movies should be familiar
to you, the simians would be shown dining on bananas. At that time there
were no bananas in Africa, and chimpanzes, and gorrillas never saw a
banana, let alone ate one. During that period there existed no way to
bring bananas to Africa,and still keep them fit for consumption, mainly
due to the time it would take, and the conditions of transport. Bananas
only grew in the tropics of the Americas, and that is where these films
were made, or on a Hollywood set. If you can extrapolate on this fact,
then how can one call bananas 'monkey food', when only the Americas
monkeys, of which there are very few examples, compared to the rest of the
world, had access to them. Now, of course bananas are grown in all parts
of the world who's climate will support their growth, and certainly, due
to modern methods, they are enjoyed by people residing in the most distant
areas of the world. Even Jewish people eat the food of the Maya, who are,
by the way, are an ethnic group.
Thank you for taking the time to consider the points I've made. I hope
you are more enlightened, and if not, I know I sincerely tried.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
Jack and Kay Hartman
>David,
>
>You definitely have a right to refer to yourself as you wish, but
those
>who choose to subscribe to being a Jewish Atheist, per se, are
>anachronistically out of sync. with the generally accepted standards
of
>modern society, and you therefore are basing your position on
something
>that is the exception, rather than the rule. Here again, as I already
>stated, we all know somebody who... but, this juxtiposition, makes
for a
>very weak argument, albiet, there will always be those who can
>rationalize, and convince themselves of anything. To simultanously,
be an
>adherent to any religion, and also atheism, in recent times,
constitutes a
>fine example of an oxymoron.
David is not alone in referring to himself as a Jewish atheist. I am
one myself. In fact the world is full of Jewish atheists. It is a
property of the religion to keep questioning, the thought being that by
questioning you will find the truth in the religion. The reverse
frequently happens. The questioning causes many to find the truth
without religion. Of course, all of this being a matter of belief,
what is true for me is equally valid with what is true for you.
Judaism is not just a religion. Without a doubt it is also a culture.
Jewish athiests exist because they are culturally attached even though
they no longer believe in god. I know I can go anywhere in the world
and if I find a Jewish community, I will find some things I have in
common. These things in common are not in the realm of practice
because I am not a practicing Jew. There is a cultural connection. It
is stronger than I have observed with other religious groups. Maybe it
comes from the great number of years of oppression that have been
suffered by the Jews of many eras.
Some pieces of that culture transcend locale. The religion is very
food connected. How many rituals in the Jewish religion are connected
to food? Just to name a few, there is Hamentaschen on Purim. There is
the Seder on Passover. There are oily foods for Chaunkah. There is
Challah on Sabbath. Because the religious rites depend so heavily on
food, it is not unreasonable to refer to Jewish cooking. There is such
a thing and it springs from the religion itself. I know of no other
religion that so fully incorporates food.
The food also helps to bind the culture. Jewish people who do not
practice the religion always have some food traditions in common.
In the U.S. there are some foods that we think of as Jewish that are
not, really. They are the foods that are specific to the Eastern
European Jews who immigrated to the U.S. and adapted to the foods
available in America, mostly in New York. Just because these foods
exist, and just because American Jews eat fried chicken and Indian Jews
eat curry, it does not mean that there is not a common food tradition
that is Jewish cooking.
Kay
Ruth Donenfeld
In <4p5o5c$m...@ra.nilenet.com> aw...@ra.nilenet.com (Arthur Wouk)
writes:
>>The confusion, and misunderstanding lies in the concept of method of
>>preparation, as in Kosher, rather than in the dish itself. I cannot
think
>>of any recipe that cannot also be prepared as Kosher. All one needs
do,
>>is to substitute Kosher ingredients for the non Kosher ingredients,
and to
>>then go about the preparation following the Kosher dogma.
>but you usually don't get the same dish! there's the rub.
If there were no such thing as "Jewish Cooking" an awful lot of cook
books have been wrong. What would Cholent be if not Jewish? Or
Stzimmis? Who else makes Gefuilteh Fish? or Challeh? Or did the Easter
Egg Bread come first? Many of our dishes have been influenced by the
country we lived in. Which came first-Russia's borscht or our borscht.
And stuffed cabbage, falafal, halavah?
Michael Edelman
jeanine (bea...@mail.prolog.net) wrote:
: Ok, I KNOW I will get flamed, but please understand, this is a serious
: question I am NOT trying to start anything rotten at all! Why is it
: that jewish is an ethnic group? I always figure religion is seperate
: from ethnic group. I can be swedish and jewish, or indian and
: catholic..ethnic and a religion, seperate from each other..Can someone
: explain please?
Sure.
Now, originally it *was* synonymous with an eththic group, as it
was a single population. Over time, the group has diffused somewhat,
but for most of modern European history the Jews were kept apart from
the population as a whole in ghettos. Hence the various Jewish communities
of Germany, Poland, Russia, the Ukraine and such that make up
the greatest proportion of Jews have far more in common culturally
and genetically with each other than they would with the gentile
population of those lands.
--mike
Paula Steger
I started to extremely dislike the Frug after seeing an
episode of his show that he called "Cooking with Wine".
The first thing he made was some kind of vegetable dish (green
beans I think ?) and he didn't use any wine to make the dish. He
said, "You're wondering where is the wine? You serve this dish
WITH wine". Uhhh, I thought the show was about "COOKING with Wine"?
Then he decided to show us how to make spaetzle. He showed us every
possible gadget that you can use to make spaetzle, including squeezing
them out of a plastic baggie. He then makes the spaetzle and says,
"Now we will serve this with Craig's wonderful mushroom-wine gravy".
Does he show us how to make the gravy? No! Half of the show was
about NOT cooking with wine! He should've called the show "Cooking
Things That May Eventually Come Into Contact With Wine".
Paula Steger
Michael Edelman
PENMART (pen...@aol.com) wrote:
: I will probably get to enjoy the same flames as you, as I also, am of the
: persuasion that 'Jewish Cooking' taken literally, means no more then,
: cooked by a Jewish person. If there exists Jewish Cooking, then it stands
: to reason, that there also exists, Catholic Cooking, Muslim Cooking,
: Taoist Cooking, etc.
No, I would disagree and say that there *is* a Jewish cuisine- or
more precisely, there are a number of Jewish cuisines. After all, when
I make Pad Thai it doesn't become Jewish food. (Until I add the
schmaltz).
In this country, "Jewish Cooking" is basically Eastern European cooking
with the addition of some mideast dishes and the application of the
laws of Kosher. Even then, there are distinctions; POlish Jews tend to
use sugar in the lokshen kugel, and Russian Jews don't. Rumanian Jews
have a spicier cuisine. And so forth.
There are other Jewish cuisines around the world, influenced by local
tradition and cuisine. The cooking of the Jews of India is quite different
from, say, Bengali cooking, but much closer to it than to European
Jewish Cooking. There is an entire Venetian Jewish cuisine that has
similar dishes- like maror for the Passaover Seder- done in ways that
we Eastern Jews would find quite unfamiliar.
And BTW there *is a Taoist cuisine and there are some specific Moslem
dietary rules that cause the cuisine of the various Moslem populations
of the world to differ from that of other groups around them. YOu'll
find both examples in China.
--mike
PENMART
In article <4p8imq$2...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack and Kay Hartman ) writes:
>
>David is not alone in referring to himself as a Jewish atheist. I am
>one myself. In fact the world is full of Jewish atheists. It is a
>property of the religion to keep questioning, the thought being that by
>questioning you will find the truth in the religion. The reverse
>frequently happens. The questioning causes many to find the truth
>without religion. Of course, all of this being a matter of belief,
>what is true for me is equally valid with what is true for you.
>
>
Kay,
You, also, may refer to yourself as you wish, but what you describe your
beliefs to be, are that of an Agnostic, which I agree the world abounds
with, whether they admit to it, or not, not an Atheist. Agnostics are
routinely disbelievers of all things, and go through life questioning all
that befalls them, that causes them to feel discomfit.
On that note, to go into further explanation, would also, be received with
disbelief.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
P.S. I wish you well, and hope you manage to some day, find yourself.
PENMART
In article <4p85n2$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
sy...@ix.netcom.com(Ruth Donenfeld ) writes:
>
>If there were no such thing as "Jewish Cooking" an awful lot of cook
>books have been wrong. What would Cholent be if not Jewish? Or
>Stzimmis? Who else makes Gefuilteh Fish? or Challeh? Or did the Easter
>Egg Bread come first? Many of our dishes have been influenced by the
>country we lived in. Which came first-Russia's borscht or our borscht.
>And stuffed cabbage, falafal, halavah?
>
>
Each, and every food you cited is indigenous to a geographical location,
where all the inhabitants consume these items, and still do. The people
who left may still partake of these preparations, in this case, Jewish
people, and they certainly were not in the majority before leaving.
In the free world, any one can author a book, and title it as they wish,
just their opinion. After, all your spelling of the foods listed are your
truths, and are valid for you, though, not the universally accepted form.
May I suggest you read:
S. I. Hayakawa; The Word Is Not The Thing
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
An after thought, and example; I love Halavah, and it is Turkish. People
of many faiths also enjoy it, but it is still Turkish.
John Hobson
PENMART wrote:
>
> In article <4p6hsn$m...@newsgate.duke.edu>, auer...@unity.ncsu.edu (David
> Auerbach) writes:
>
> > I'm both Jewish and an atheist and such a
> >combination has a long and honorable history in Jewish communities, including
> >in modern day Israel. Secondly, as a matter of food history, there are
> >distincitive Jewish cuisines, falling into two main types, Eastern European
> >(Ashkenazic) and Mediterreanean (Sephardic).
>
>
> You definitely have a right to refer to yourself as you wish, but those
> who choose to subscribe to being a Jewish Atheist, per se, are
> anachronistically out of sync. with the generally accepted standards of
> modern society, and you therefore are basing your position on something
> that is the exception, rather than the rule. Here again, as I already
> stated, we all know somebody who... but, this juxtiposition, makes for a
> very weak argument, albiet, there will always be those who can
> rationalize, and convince themselves of anything. To simultanously, be an
> adherent to any religion, and also atheism, in recent times, constitutes a
> fine example of an oxymoron.
As I and several other people have pointed out in this thread, Jews are
both members of a religion AND members of an ethnic group -- actually,
several ethnic groups. David is religiously an atheist and ethnically
a Jew. On my mother's side, I am ethnnically Jewish; as far as
religion goes, I am Catholic.
There are many Jewish atheists who come to mind: Leon Trotsky, Sigmund
Freud, Franz Kafka to name just three.
jmclarke
PENMART (pen...@aol.com) wrote:
> In article <4p85n2$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
> sy...@ix.netcom.com(Ruth Donenfeld ) writes:
Excuse me for interrupting....what an interesting discussion. May I
suggest, that since the common denominator among the wonderful foods of all
these different nations and people of Jewish origin, is that they are
kosher, to me, the logical name for the new newsgroup would be
alt.food.kosher. This would welcome participants from any country.
Joan C.
> >If there were no such thing as "Jewish Cooking" an awful lot of cook
> >books have been wrong. What would Cholent be if not Jewish? Or
> >Stzimmis? Who else makes Gefuilteh Fish? or Challeh? Or did the Easter
> >Egg Bread come first? Many of our dishes have been influenced by the
> >country we lived in. Which came first-Russia's borscht or our borscht.
> >And stuffed cabbage, falafal, halavah?
> Each, and every food you cited is indigenous to a geographical location,
> where all the inhabitants consume these items, and still do. The people
> who left may still partake of these preparations, in this case, Jewish
> people, and they certainly were not in the majority before leaving.
> Sheldon Martin
Jack and Kay Hartman
>You, also, may refer to yourself as you wish, but what you describe
your
>beliefs to be, are that of an Agnostic, which I agree the world
abounds
>with, whether they admit to it, or not, not an Atheist. Agnostics are
>routinely disbelievers of all things, and go through life questioning
all
>that befalls them, that causes them to feel discomfit.
Since you do not know me even one little bit, I find it presumptuous of
you to tell me what I am or am not. I do not believe in the existence
of god, therefore, I am an atheist. I am very comfortable with it.
I was not describing my own current questioning. I was describing the
traditional Jewish teaching to always question and the effect that has
on the people who are Jewish.
In spite of the fact that I am an atheist, I still consider myself
quite Jewish. In fact, of all of my mother's children, I am the only
one who does not believe in god. In spite of that, I am the most
Jewish child she has.
If you don't think I am Jewish, that is your problem, not mine.
>P.S. I wish you well, and hope you manage to some day, find yourself.
I am not looking for myself. I know right where I am. I know exactly
who I am.
It's amazing there are any Jewish people left given how bad most Jewish
food is for you.
Kay
PENMART
In article <4p9fq6$j...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu
(Michael Edelman) writes:
>Subject: Re: Jewish Cooking ( was Patronizing Frug)
>From: m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman)
>Date: 7 Jun 1996 14:53:58 GMT
Mike,
Unknowingly, you have made some valid points, that do a very fine job of
validating my premise, to wit; what most people refer to as Jewish food is
in fact, ethnic food.
Thank you for you concurence.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
PENMART
In article <4pam3a$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, jmcl...@ccs.carleton.ca
(jmclarke) writes:
>
>Excuse me for interrupting....what an interesting discussion. May I
>suggest, that since the common denominator among the wonderful foods of
all
>these different nations and people of Jewish origin, is that they are
>kosher, to me, the logical name for the new newsgroup would be
>alt.food.kosher. This would welcome participants from any country.
>
>Joan C.
Joan,
You are missing the point. The foods refered to are not necessarily
Kosher, unless prepared in the prescribed Kosher manner. Even then, they
are not Jewish foods, only foods which are acceptable for consumption by
Jewish people who keep Kosher.
May I suggest that you subscribe to "alt.food.kosher", for purposes of
enlightenment.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
PENMART
In article <4pbdjr$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Dear Kay,
I appoligize for suggesting that you may be an agnostic, and to all the
agnostics in this world, for I have erred. You most definately are merely
obtuse, and a very angry indivdual.
The thrust of you closing remark, obviously,underscores, and speaks
volumes about what, and who you really are, a dyed in the wool bigot.
At this point, since you are obviously a person in denial, may I suggest
you engage professional assistance; there is alway hope that even a lost,
and troubled soul, such as yourself may find a comfortable place, along
with inner peace.
I wish you success.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
Jack and Kay Hartman
In <4pam3a$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> jmcl...@ccs.carleton.ca
(jmclarke) writes:
>Excuse me for interrupting....what an interesting discussion. May I
>suggest, that since the common denominator among the wonderful foods
of all
>these different nations and people of Jewish origin, is that they are
>kosher, to me, the logical name for the new newsgroup would be
>alt.food.kosher. This would welcome participants from any country.
Kosher cooking is a subset of Jewish cooking. I am not a proponent or
opponent of a Jewish cooking newsgroup but I think that restricting it
to Kosher cooking would make it too narrow. I would also think that
participants from all countries would be one of the things that would
make the group interesting without the Kosher restriction.
Kay
Jack and Kay Hartman
>Unknowingly, you have made some valid points,
Sheldon,
I don't know who the heck you think you are, but insulting Mike and me
will not get you anywhere. Get off your high horse. You are not the
arbitor of Jewish. You are not the arbitor of intelligence. You are
not the arbitor of anything, near as I can tell.
Kay
Jack and Kay Hartman
>Dear Kay,
>
>I appoligize for suggesting that you may be an agnostic, and to all
the
>agnostics in this world, for I have erred. You most definately are
merely
>obtuse, and a very angry indivdual.
>
>The thrust of you closing remark, obviously,underscores, and speaks
>volumes about what, and who you really are, a dyed in the wool bigot.
>
>At this point, since you are obviously a person in denial, may I
suggest
>you engage professional assistance; there is alway hope that even a
lost,
>and troubled soul, such as yourself may find a comfortable place,
along
>with inner peace.
>
>I wish you success.
You see. From now on I am going to ignore this idiot and jump out of
this discussion. I understand that reason will not work and I will no
longer try. He can continue to insult me all he wants. He will not
get another rise out of me.
Kay
Will Borgeson
Nyani-Iisha Martin (nfma...@husc7.harvard.edu) wrote:
: So those who don't like the show can insult it to high heaven, while those
: who do like it must remain silent? What a lovely double standard you
: espouse.
Not at all, Nyani-Iisha. All are welcome to speak up of course -
bashers and devotees alike.
: Why? Comments are made publically to be publically noted and responded
: to. What gives your comments, or those you agree with, any particular
: sanctity and defence from challenge?
Nothing whatsoever. I'm more than happy to rise to any
"challenge" you might come up with...
Will
PENMART
In article <4pc5s3$j...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack and Kay Hartman ) writes:
Kay,
Once again, you exhibit the fact that you don't know, note your first
three words. Ah, but there is now hope for you, for one to admit they
don't know is the first step on the path to learning. Do not let your
anger inhibit your ability to comprehend, and you will have a chance at
sucess. Good luck.
Go know!
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
P.S. You insult your self. Shame on you.
Harry H Conover
I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the wonderful show that
David Rosengarten did on Jewish Cooking (actually Kosher) on TFC. He
included the prepartion and use of schmaltz (sp?) aka rendered chicken
fat, the delicasy of toasted pumpernicked spread with schmaltz, and
a number of traditional Kosher Passover and Saturday dishes.
Worth viewing if you're interested in this topic.
Harry C.
S F
Actually, I find it very easy to pass up all subject headings containing
"Frug" and I happen to like the man and his show. For those who can't -
please set your Filter or "Kill File" to "delete: when subject line
contains: Frug". Voila! No more temptation to read and your blood
pressure stays low.
==========================
On Jun 04, 1996 13:58:40 in article <Re: Patronizing Frug>,
'szbo...@dale.ucdavis.edu (Will Borgeson)' wrote:
>If you don't like their comments,
>ignore them...
David Auerbach
In message <4pam3a$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> - jmcl...@ccs.carleton.ca
(jmclarke)8 Jun 1996 01:47:22 GMT writes:
:>
:>
:>Excuse me for interrupting....what an interesting discussion. May I
:>suggest, that since the common denominator among the wonderful foods of all
:>these different nations and people of Jewish origin, is that they are
:>kosher, to me, the logical name for the new newsgroup would be
:>alt.food.kosher. This would welcome participants from any country.
As has been pointed out more than once Jewish food needn't be (and by and
large isn't) kosher.
Katie E Green
> BUNK! Give it a rest Sheldon. Katie
Debra Fran Baker
In <4pc4dk$5...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack and Kay Hartman ) writes:
>In <4pam3a$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> jmcl...@ccs.carleton.ca
>(jmclarke) writes:
>Kosher cooking is a subset of Jewish cooking. I am not a proponent or
>opponent of a Jewish cooking newsgroup but I think that restricting it
>to Kosher cooking would make it too narrow. I would also think that
>participants from all countries would be one of the things that would
>make the group interesting without the Kosher restriction.
Why would we need a Jewish cooking group for that last? We have that
right here.
There are plenty of outlets for non-kosher recipes. There are very few
for kosher. I mean, we have vegetarian cooking groups and lists, what's
wrong with a kosher one? I would love to be able to read a recipe and
not be brought up short by bacon fat or shrimp.
Debra
--
Rabbi Shimon [ben Netanel] said "...And be not evil in your own sight."
Ethics of the Fathers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Debra Fran Baker dfb...@panix.com
Debra Fran Baker
WHEN DID HE DO THIS?
I have never seen a show of his that did not include something treif, but
I also could not receive the network for several months, including the
time before, during and after Passover.
Debra Fran Baker
>In message <4pam3a$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> - jmcl...@ccs.carleton.ca
>(jmclarke)8 Jun 1996 01:47:22 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>PENMART (pen...@aol.com) wrote:
>:>> In article <4p85n2$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>:>> sy...@ix.netcom.com(Ruth Donenfeld ) writes:
>:>
>:>Excuse me for interrupting....what an interesting discussion. May I
>:>suggest, that since the common denominator among the wonderful foods of all
>:>these different nations and people of Jewish origin, is that they are
>:>kosher, to me, the logical name for the new newsgroup would be
>:>alt.food.kosher. This would welcome participants from any country.
>:>
>As has been pointed out more than once Jewish food needn't be (and by and
>large isn't) kosher.
But it started out that way.
Nyani-Iisha Martin
Mary f(pud) (ma...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Nyani-Iisha Martin wrote:
: > Jenny S. Johanssen (joha...@matnet.com) wrote:
: > : What can you expect. Supposedly he is from a Lebanese origin.
: > Well, I doubt he can't cook Jewish food because he's supposedly Lebanese.
: Um... I think his roots are Norwegian, does this man even resemble Lebanese
*laugh* That was kinda half my point. I should have been more verbose and
said:
"Not only do I think he's not Lebanese, but even if he were that would
have no bearing whatsoever on what he could cook."
Ny
____________________________________________________________________________
Nyani-Iisha F. Martin nfma...@fas.harvard.edu
"No one asks you to throw Mozart out of the window. Keep Mozart. Cherish him.
Keep Moses too, and Buddha and Lao Tse and Christ. Keep them in your heart.
But make room for the others, the coming ones, the ones who are already
scratching on the windowpanes."---Henry Miller
Nyani-Iisha Martin
Will Borgeson (szbo...@chip.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: Nyani-Iisha Martin (nfma...@husc7.harvard.edu) wrote:
: : So those who don't like the show can insult it to high heaven, while those
: : who do like it must remain silent? What a lovely double standard you
: : espouse.
: Not at all, Nyani-Iisha. All are welcome to speak up of course -
: bashers and devotees alike.
Good. Then we agree, and I can stop acting like a flirtatious Cardassian.
*smile*
Ny
Who watched the Frug as a young girl, learned some good things from him,
but who also sees some very big problems with him and his show (especially
the meat-milk thing. Even I, a Jamaican kid, knew that observant Jewish
people don't mix meat and milk).
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Nyani-Iisha F. Martin nfma...@fas.harvard.edu
" And dammit, when I say something really kinky I take full credit
for it." ----Chuck Truesdell,on Alt.fan.karl-malden.nose.
David Auerbach
In message <4pdf25$m...@panix.com> - dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker)8 Jun
1996 23:05:41 -0400 writes:
:>
:>In <4pcm92$p...@newsgate.duke.edu> auer...@unity.ncsu.edu (David Auerbach) writes::>
:>>As has been pointed out more than once Jewish food needn't be (and by and
:>>large isn't) kosher.
:>
:>But it started out that way.
:>
:>Debra
What's the point of the "But"?
Jack and Kay Hartman
In <4pdess$l...@panix.com> dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker) writes:
>
>In <4pc4dk$5...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack
and Kay Hartman ) writes:
>
>>Kosher cooking is a subset of Jewish cooking. I am not a proponent
or
>>opponent of a Jewish cooking newsgroup but I think that restricting
it
>>to Kosher cooking would make it too narrow. I would also think that
>>participants from all countries would be one of the things that would
>>make the group interesting without the Kosher restriction.
>
>Why would we need a Jewish cooking group for that last? We have that
>right here.
>
>There are plenty of outlets for non-kosher recipes. There are very
few
>for kosher. I mean, we have vegetarian cooking groups and lists,
what's
>wrong with a kosher one? I would love to be able to read a recipe
and
>not be brought up short by bacon fat or shrimp.
Well, I don't find dishes made with bacon fat or shrimp ever to be
Jewish. I can prepare Jewish dishes but they are not Kosher because my
kitchen is not. And I might substitute butter for schmaltz in a recipe
because I don't care about following the rules. However, I know the
recipe is Jewish in origin.
There are a lot of issues connected with Kosher cooking that surely
could be discussed in its own newsgroup or mailing list.
There are a lot of issues in Jewish cooking that might not be
interesting to the general public, just like this entire thread might
not be. Issues such as the cultural, historical, or Biblical
significance of a food.
So, there's nothing wrong with a Kosher newsgroup or mailing list.
There is also nothing wrong with a general Jewish cooking newsgroup.
As I previously said, I am neither an opponent nor a proponent of this
group.
Kay
PENMART
In article <4pchsa$s...@news.tiac.net>, con...@tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
writes:
>
>I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the wonderful show that
>David Rosengarten did on Jewish Cooking (actually Kosher) on TFC. He
>included the prepartion and use of schmaltz (sp?) aka rendered chicken
>fat, the delicasy of toasted pumpernicked spread with schmaltz, and
>a number of traditional Kosher Passover and Saturday dishes.
>
>Worth viewing if you're interested in this topic.
>
> Harry C.
>
>
Harry,
I notice that you are astute in your observations, by making the
distinction that when one inadvertantly refers to a style of cooking as
Jewish, the term Kosher cooking is in fact the appropriate terminology.
To wit, your parenthesis.
I also concur with your reference to Passover, and Saturday ( Sabbath )
dishes, as being Kosher, and not Jewish. Besides it would also be a
redundancy to speak of a food preparation as a 'Kosher Jewish' dish,
albiet, there do exist many Jewish people who do not keep Kosher, but they
still do not eat Jewish food, but, rather, as you say, and I
wholeheartedly agree, that what they eat, are 'traditional' foods, whether
Kosher, or not. I, also understand there to be various levels of Kosher,
such as the term Glat Kosher infers, but in this area I will depart, and
leave that subject to the Rabbis, and their various denominations.
I also agree that rendered chicken fat is delicious, especially, with
tsibeles ( Sp? ), chicken fat, with onions fried in it, on good, thick
crusted, Russian Black Bread. Many Russian people, still to this day, eat
this, and it has nothing to do with their being Jewish, as it is an ethnic
food, that evolved, simply, due to the scarcity of butter. And, of course,
the Jewish people adopted its use too, as it quite nicely fulfilled their
requirements of keeping Kosher, as it is neither a dairy, nor a pork
product, such as butter, which cannot be eaten with meat, nor lard, which
cannot be eaten at all.
Thank you for your intelligent response, and I hope to hear from you
again.
Respectfully I remain,
Sheldon Martin
penmart@aol,com
PENMART
In article <4pc9mh$7...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack and Kay Hartman ) writes:
>
>You see. From now on I am going to ignore this idiot and jump out of
>this discussion. I understand that reason will not work and I will no
>longer try. He can continue to insult me all he wants. He will not
>get another rise out of me.
>
>Kay
>
>
Kay,
You initiated your attack with such vim, and vigor. I never thought you
to be a quiter. What happened to your convictions, your fortitude, and
your ability to wage a strong argument? Your response is pitiful, and
cowardly. I am disappointed in you.
I, too, agree that you need a rest, to collect your thoughts, and rethink
your position on this subject, to calm yourself, and then, when you are
able to refrain from the name calling, and if you feel up to the task, I
will welcome your return, and permit you to continue your participation in
this discussion.
Sheldon Martin
pen...@aol.com
Debra Fran Baker
>In message <4pdf25$m...@panix.com> - dfb...@panix.com (Debra Fran Baker)8 Jun
>1996 23:05:41 -0400 writes:
>:>
>:>In <4pcm92$p...@newsgate.duke.edu> auer...@unity.ncsu.edu (David Auerbach) writes::>
>:>>As has been pointed out more than once Jewish food needn't be (and by and
>:>>large isn't) kosher.
>:>
>:>But it started out that way.
>:>
>:>Debra
>What's the point of the "But"?
The point is that when you take the "kosher" out of Jewish cooking, you
have a fine collection of national cuisines, almost none of which can be
identified as Jewish.
In fact, look at what your family considers to be "Jewish dishes." How
many of them violate the kosher laws?
I used to go to a restaurant in NYC that served delicious pierogies and
mushroom-barley soup and stuffed cabbage. I don't go there anymore
because it is a *Polish* restaurant, and therefore not kosher. (I
actually never did eat the stuffed cabbage, as I was avoiding non-kosher
meat at that point.) Yet it served all these traditional "Jewish"
foods - because that's where they entered the Jewish diet.
Debra Fran Baker
>>There are plenty of outlets for non-kosher recipes. There are very
>few
>>for kosher. I mean, we have vegetarian cooking groups and lists,
>what's
>>wrong with a kosher one? I would love to be able to read a recipe
>and
>>not be brought up short by bacon fat or shrimp.
>Well, I don't find dishes made with bacon fat or shrimp ever to be
>Jewish. I can prepare Jewish dishes but they are not Kosher because my
>kitchen is not. And I might substitute butter for schmaltz in a recipe
>because I don't care about following the rules. However, I know the
>recipe is Jewish in origin.
Right - the recipe itself is kosher, even if your kitchen is not, and you
make changes in it.
Robert M. Hamer
pen...@aol.com (PENMART) writes:
>I appoligize for suggesting that you may be an agnostic, and to all the
>agnostics in this world, for I have erred. You most definately are merely
>obtuse, and a very angry indivdual.
>The thrust of you closing remark, obviously,underscores, and speaks
>volumes about what, and who you really are, a dyed in the wool bigot.
>At this point, since you are obviously a person in denial, may I suggest
>you engage professional assistance; there is alway hope that even a lost,
>and troubled soul, such as yourself may find a comfortable place, along
>with inner peace.
Laura Lymon has returned!
Her new id seems to be pen...@aol.com.
Welcome back, Laura.
And you even got another aol account!
Your last ID was aol, right?
I'm glad to see that you recovered from the automobile
accident. We all thought you were dead.
--
--(Signature) Robert M. Hamer ha...@gandalf.rutgers.edu 908 235 4218
Note: gandalf.rutgers.edu is changing to rci.rutgers.edu
Thus, my address will be ha...@rci.rutgers.edu
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -- Schiller
Robert M. Hamer
pen...@aol.com (PENMART) writes:
>hart...@ix.netcom.com(Jack and Kay Hartman ) writes:
>>You see. From now on I am going to ignore this idiot and jump out of
>>this discussion. I understand that reason will not work and I will no
>You initiated your attack with such vim, and vigor. I never thought you
>to be a quiter. What happened to your convictions, your fortitude, and
This has _got_ to be Laura Lymon.
It doesn't contain the ellipses,
but it has to be Laura.
John Hobson
> >
> >>Unknowingly, you have made some valid points,
> >
> >Sheldon,
> >
> >I don't know who the heck you think you are, but insulting Mike and me
> >will not get you anywhere. Get off your high horse. You are not the
> >arbitor of Jewish. You are not the arbitor of intelligence. You are
> >not the arbitor of anything, near as I can tell.
> >
> >Kay
>
> Kay,
>
> Once again, you exhibit the fact that you don't know, note your first
> three words. Ah, but there is now hope for you, for one to admit they
> don't know is the first step on the path to learning. Do not let your
> anger inhibit your ability to comprehend, and you will have a chance at
> sucess. Good luck.
>
> Go know!
>
> Sheldon Martin
> pen...@aol.com
>
Sheldon, Kay was objecting to your use of the word "unknowingly". As in,
"Hey, you ignorant person, you accidently stumbled on some valid points."
She knew very well what she was saying, and did not make her points in
ignorance.
You insulted her. Shame on you!
--
John Hobson |The Mahatma Gandhi was once asked, "Mr
Unix Support Group |Gandhi, what do you think of Western
Commonwealth Edison, Chicago, IL |Civilization?" He replied, "I think
jho...@ceco.ceco.com |that it would be an excellent idea."
Michael Edelman
PENMART (pen...@aol.com) wrote:
: Kay,
: Once again, you exhibit the fact that you don't know, note your first
: three words. Ah, but there is now hope for you, for one to admit they
: don't know is the first step on the path to learning. Do not let your
: anger inhibit your ability to comprehend, and you will have a chance at
: sucess. Good luck.
Sheldon, du bist ein narr. Stop annoying the nice people.
--mike
Valerie Stark
In article <4pc7t0$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, PENMART <pen...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>It's amazing there are any Jewish people left given how bad most Jewish
>>food is for you.
>>
>>Kay
>>
>
>Dear Kay,
>
>agnostics in this world, for I have erred. You most definately are merely
>obtuse, and a very angry indivdual.
You are incorrest, sir.
>
>The thrust of you closing remark, obviously,underscores, and speaks
>volumes about what, and who you really are, a dyed in the wool bigot.
Say WHAT?
>
>At this point, since you are obviously a person in denial, may I suggest
>you engage professional assistance; there is alway hope that even a lost,
>and troubled soul, such as yourself may find a comfortable place, along
>with inner peace.
A closed mind gathers no insight, Sheldon. You sound like my father --
he never wanted to be troubled by other people's viewpoints either.
>
>I wish you success.
>
>Sheldon Martin
>pen...@aol.com
>
Hmmm...
Val, butting in...
Valerie Stark
In article <4pbktm$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, PENMART <pen...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>Mike,
>
>Unknowingly, you have made some valid points, that do a very fine job of
>validating my premise, to wit; what most people refer to as Jewish food is
>in fact, ethnic food.
>
>Thank you for you concurence.
>
>Sheldon Martin
>pen...@aol.com
What a patronizing prig!
Val, amazed at what some folks find to argue about... ;-)
Stan Horwitz
Jack and Kay Hartman (hart...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: David is not alone in referring to himself as a Jewish atheist. I am
: one myself. In fact the world is full of Jewish atheists. It is a
: property of the religion to keep questioning, the thought being that by
: questioning you will find the truth in the religion. The reverse
: frequently happens. The questioning causes many to find the truth
: without religion. Of course, all of this being a matter of belief,
: what is true for me is equally valid with what is true for you.
It seems to me that if Jewish tradition embodies questioning, than being a
Jewish atheist is a contridiction in terms. Atheism, as I understand it, is
a total disbelief in a god or theology. If you totally disbelieve in God,
isn't that a lack of questionning one's belief just as much as theism is?
It makes more sense from a logical standpoint to label oneself as a Jewish
Agnostic where agnosticism is, as I understand it, a continual questioning
about what god is and whether or not there is in fact a god.
Oops, this is sure diverting from cookery. Sorry about that.
--
This message was written by Stan Horwitz.
My views are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.
Check out my home page! The URL is http://thunder.temple.edu/~stan
*** Please DO NOT include my name or E-mail address in any mailing lists
unless I explicitly make the request.