Brioche Disaster!!!
Idlewild
i made brioche last night. it was awful. please tell me where i messed
up. i used a recipe, slightly modified, that comes from "Stars
Desserts" by Emily Luchetti.
1 1/2 t yeast
1/4 c warm water
1 1/2 T sugar
3 eggs
2 1/2 c flour
1 t salt
1 stick + 3 T butter
combine yeast, water, sugar, let stand for 10 minutes. stir in beaten
eggs, add flour and salt, mix. add butter in slowly, knead until
incorporated. let rise till double, punch down, shape into loaf, let
rise till double, bake at 350 deg until done.
i had a hard time kneading in the butter. it took maybe 10 minutes of
hand kneading. i noticed, before it was homogeneous, that i had greasy
sticky spots and then really hard, tough patches in the dough. is that
normal? i had to go to a business dinner of sorts, so the first rise
probably tripled the dough, but i punched down, let it rise, and baked
it.
it is the driest, crumbliest, most tasteless bread i have ever had.
what did i do wrong?
disheartened
-j.
--
Will cook for food.
Mimi Hiller
Hi, June. I've never made brioche (I will, though, fairly soon, because
I'm intrigued by it).
Anyway, I should probably let Kay handle this (she loves "Stars
Desserts"), but I wondered about a few things in the recipe, so I went
to look up others to see what they had to say. Here is a recipe I found
at http://countrylife.net/bread/questions/867.html...my comments follow
it:
French Brioche Recipe
1 package dry yeast
1/4 c. warm water
1/2 c. butter
1/4 c. sugar
1 tsp salt
3 1/4 c. all-purpose flour
1/2 c. milk
1/4 c. cake flour
4 eggs
water
1 egg yolk
1 tbsp. water
Soften yeast in 1/4 c. warm water (115 F). Cream butter, sugar and salt.
Beat 1 cup all-purpose flour and the milk into creamed mixture. Add cake
flour, eggs and softened yeast; beat well. Beat in remaining flour. Beat
by hand 6-10 minutes. cover; let rise in warm place until double in bulk
(about 2 hours).
Stir down dough. Beat well. Turn out dough onto floured board. Form a
long
roll. Cut off 1/4 of the dough and set aside. Cut remaining dough into 6
pieces; form each piece into 4 balls. Tuck under cut edges; place in
greased brioche pans. Cut reserved dough into 6 pieces, cut each of 6
pieces into 4 pieces. Shape 24 balls. Make small indentations in middles
of large balls; brush holes with water. Press small balls into
indentations.
Beat egg yolk and 1 tbsp. water. Brush tops of balls. Cover; let rise
until double (about 30 minutes). Bake at 375 F about 15 minutes till
golden. Brush again with yolk mixture. Bake for another 5 minutes.
Remove from pan immediately. Brioches may be frozen and reheated in a
350 F oven.
Makes 24 rolls.
Okay, my turn.
I notice that in your recipe the butter is added in -after- the flour;
in the 2nd recipe, it is creamed with the sugar and salt.
Your recipe calls for more than twice the amount of butter in the 2nd
recipe and approx. 1/4 the amount of sugar, while the amount of flour in
both recipes is fairly close (2-1/2 c. vs. 3-1/4 c.).
And then there the matter of the extra egg and cake flour in the 2nd
recipe.
I think there are two very basic problems with your recipe...first, the
way the butter is incorporated. Was your butter soft? (From your
statement about having a hard time kneading it in, my guess is that it
was too cold.)
Secondly, there is a great discrepancy between the two recipes in terms
of fat & liquid.
Don't do anything yet. I'll be curious to see what Kay, et al, have to
say about this. I'll be watching.
Mimi
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mimi Hiller mi...@cyber-kitchen.com, hil...@smartlink.net
RFD for rec.food.cuisine.jewish now taking place in news.groups
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jack and Kay Hartman
In <337A93...@cyber-kitchen.com> Mimi Hiller
<mi...@cyber-kitchen.com> writes:
>
>Idlewild wrote:
>>
>> i made brioche last night. it was awful. please tell me where i
messed
>> up. i used a recipe, slightly modified, that comes from "Stars
>> Desserts" by Emily Luchetti.
>>
of
>> hand kneading. i noticed, before it was homogeneous, that i had
greasy
>> sticky spots and then really hard, tough patches in the dough. is
that
>> normal? i had to go to a business dinner of sorts, so the first
rise
>> probably tripled the dough, but i punched down, let it rise, and
baked
>> it.
>>
>> it is the driest, crumbliest, most tasteless bread i have ever had.
>> what did i do wrong?
>
>Desserts"), but I wondered about a few things in the recipe, so I went
>to look up others to see what they had to say. Here is a recipe I
found
>at http://countrylife.net/bread/questions/867.html...my comments
follow
>it:
>
>in the 2nd recipe, it is creamed with the sugar and salt.
>
>Your recipe calls for more than twice the amount of butter in the 2nd
>recipe and approx. 1/4 the amount of sugar, while the amount of flour
in
>both recipes is fairly close (2-1/2 c. vs. 3-1/4 c.).
>
>And then there the matter of the extra egg and cake flour in the 2nd
>recipe.
>
>I think there are two very basic problems with your recipe...first,
the
>way the butter is incorporated. Was your butter soft? (From your
>statement about having a hard time kneading it in, my guess is that it
>was too cold.)
>
>Secondly, there is a great discrepancy between the two recipes in
terms
>of fat & liquid.
>
>Don't do anything yet. I'll be curious to see what Kay, et al, have
to
>say about this. I'll be watching.
Well, I saw June's post and kind of stayed away from it because I'm not
exactly sure. Now after Mimi's post I feel like I have to say
something. I made this recipe before and it came out OK, but not
outstanding. I am saving the recipe to try again after hell freezes
over and I have a KitchenAid.
I think that you want to have the butter evenly dispersed throughout
the dough. I suspect that Mimi is correct and that you're butter was
too cold. When I made the recipe I used butter that was room
temperature through-and-through and completely soft.
Another issue is which butter you used. Emily Luchetti discusses
butter at the end of her book. She suggests using a higher fat butter
than most American butters are. For some recipes it doesn't matter
much. When I made my brioche from that recipe I used Plugra. Egg Farm
Dairy butter is also very high in fat and a good choice.
I too found it very difficult to hand knead the dough because of its
high butter content. I had grease all over the counter. This is why
I'm waiting until I have a KitchenAid before I make it again.
I don't think that the tripling of the dough would have a bad affect.
As long as there was enough oomph in the dough to double on the second
rise you should have been OK.
The resulting bread should be crumbly. It should not be dry. It
definitely not be tasteless. I mean, with all that butter, it should
taste buttery if nothing else.
Also, I don't know how dry you are talking about. It does take some
amount of dryness to achieve crumbliness but it doesn't take that much.
I made this brioche for the big French dinner that I made in 1995. I
wound up eating it with the leftover terrine de foie gras from that
meal. I thought it was delicious.
Anyway, I doubt these comments are very helpful, which is why I held
back in the first place.
As for Mimi's comment that I love this book, I haven't noticed Mimi
turning her nose up at any of the desserts I've made from it.
Kay
June Oshiro
On 15 May 1997, Jack and Kay Hartman wrote:
> Well, I saw June's post and kind of stayed away from it because I'm not
> exactly sure. Now after Mimi's post I feel like I have to say
> something.
glad you did. :) i used the recipe b/c i was under the impression you
had had a successful bake with it.
> over and I have a KitchenAid.
some day... i'm working on matt to give me one for our anniversary and/or
my birthday in a few weeks. :)
> I think that you want to have the butter evenly dispersed throughout
> the dough.
it was. it took a while, but eventually, it was a smooth and homogenous
dough. very dense. it was about the size of a child's brain.
> I suspect that Mimi is correct and that you're butter was
> too cold. When I made the recipe I used butter that was room
> temperature through-and-through and completely soft.
yes, the butter was cold. i don't have the book here at work, but i seem
to recall it saying something about softened butter. but again, when i
finished kneading, the dough was not excessively greasy or whatever. as i
said to mimi in an email, i thought i had read somewhere about not using
overly soft butter because it would make the dough greasy.
> Another issue is which butter you used. Emily Luchetti discusses
> butter at the end of her book. She suggests using a higher fat butter
> than most American butters are. For some recipes it doesn't matter
> much. When I made my brioche from that recipe I used Plugra. Egg Farm
> Dairy butter is also very high in fat and a good choice.
i used hotel bar butter. generic, cheapish.
> I too found it very difficult to hand knead the dough because of its
> high butter content.
just wondering, but did you get these tough patches and grease spots
before it was all homogeneous?
> The resulting bread should be crumbly. It should not be dry. It
> definitely not be tasteless. I mean, with all that butter, it should
> taste buttery if nothing else.
well, okay. it tastes... heavy. i ate one small roll, not much bigger
than a golf ball of bread. i didn't like it at all. i guess it would be
acceptable for bread pudding or one of those kinds of recipes, but for
eating straight, no good.
> Anyway, I doubt these comments are very helpful, which is why I held
> back in the first place.
kay, don't knock it. i'm /always/ grateful to receive help, and it is
also especially helpful from someone who has actually used the same
recipe.
stars has been a very good book - this is the first thing i've made from
it (not that i've made that much, mind you) that turned out poorly. and
it could just be me (or the cold butter).
thanks!
-j.
Nancy Dooley
>
>I made this brioche for the big French dinner that I made in 1995. I
>wound up eating it with the leftover terrine de foie gras from that
>meal. I thought it was delicious.
>
too stiff. I've only made it once, but had good results.
I'll bring along my recipe and ingredi-ments to the cook-in (Kate, is
your kitchen "flour-friendly?") and we'll give it a shot if we have
time.
Nancy.
"You're only young once, but you can be immature
forever."
Pat Caruthers
In article <1997051419...@usr8-12.som.nj.webspan.net>, idle...@webspan.net (Idlewild) writes:
|> i made brioche last night. it was awful. please tell me where i messed
|> up. i used a recipe, slightly modified, that comes from "Stars
|> Desserts" by Emily Luchetti.
|>
|>
|> 1/4 c warm water
|> 1 1/2 T sugar
|> 3 eggs
|> 2 1/2 c flour
|> 1 t salt
|> 1 stick + 3 T butter
|>
|> combine yeast, water, sugar, let stand for 10 minutes. stir in beaten
|> eggs, add flour and salt, mix. add butter in slowly, knead until
|> incorporated. let rise till double, punch down, shape into loaf, let
|> rise till double, bake at 350 deg until done.
|>
not surprising.
brioche takes *a lot* of kneading; i've always made it with my kitchen aid
and its a "knead for 20 minutes", before you even add the butter.
|> it took maybe 10 minutes of
|> hand kneading.
I would expect that.
|> i noticed, before it was homogeneous, that i had greasy
|> sticky spots and then really hard, tough patches in the dough. is that
|> normal?
Yes.
you put in cold butter, as it gets melded (Not melted) you will have
an intermeadiate stage of lumps of butter.
You might have added too much at a time.
|> i had to go to a business dinner of sorts, so the first rise
|> probably tripled the dough, but i punched down, let it rise, and baked
|> it.
that's not a good thing.
over rising the first time will limit how much it can rise the second time.
|> it is the driest, crumbliest, most tasteless bread i have ever had.
|> what did i do wrong?
dry implies it got over baked.
can't Imagine how it ended up tasteless!
crumbly ... well, actually brioche bread Is crumbly.
I'd try another recipe!
you might try looking at the 'baking with julia' book - Excellent directions
and pictures.
pat
June Oshiro
On Thu, 15 May 1997, Nancy Dooley wrote:
> I'll bring along my recipe and ingredi-ments to the cook-in (Kate, is
> your kitchen "flour-friendly?") and we'll give it a shot if we have
> time.
nancy, that would kick ass! even if it can't be done at kate's, i could
always give it another go at home.
-j.
Jack and Kay Hartman
In <Pine.BSF.3.95.970515...@orion.webspan.net> June
Oshiro <idle...@mail.webspan.net> writes:
>
>glad you did. :) i used the recipe b/c i was under the impression
you
>had had a successful bake with it.
It wasn't bad. I just think that this is one with will do better with
a KitchenAid.
>some day... i'm working on matt to give me one for our anniversary
and/or
>my birthday in a few weeks. :)
Isn't he out on the Appalachian Trail?
>it was. it took a while, but eventually, it was a smooth and
homogenous
>dough.
I thought you said before that you had splotches of some kind.
>very dense. it was about the size of a child's brain.
It's been nearly two years since I made it so I don't remember what my
dough looked like.
>yes, the butter was cold. i don't have the book here at work, but i
seem
>to recall it saying something about softened butter.
Well, I'm home sick (chicken soup on the stove) so I can look it up.
The recipe says "soft sweet butter." This would say to me that the
butter should not be cold.
>but again, when i
>finished kneading, the dough was not excessively greasy or whatever.
as i
>said to mimi in an email, i thought i had read somewhere about not
using
>overly soft butter because it would make the dough greasy.
If you read that, it was not in Emily Luchetti's recipe. I just reread
the whole thing and it made no such mention.
>i used hotel bar butter. generic, cheapish.
Hmmm... Cold, cheap butter. We could be onto something here.
>just wondering, but did you get these tough patches and grease spots
>before it was all homogeneous?
I can't remember. I do remember having a difficult time kneading in
the butter sufficiently. I perservered and made a homogonous dough,
but I don't remember what it looked like in between.
>stars has been a very good book - this is the first thing i've made
from
>it (not that i've made that much, mind you) that turned out poorly.
and
>it could just be me (or the cold butter).
I like the book a lot myself (as many readers surely know). I have had
a couple of flops and a couple of things that were not to my taste. On
the whole, I've had a lot of success with the book and its successor
Four-star Desserts.
Kay
Nancy Dooley
>Keep at it. Baking with Julia says that the butter should be the same texture
>as the dough, smooth, soft, and still cool... not warm or greasy. She says
>you can bash the butter into submission with a rolling pin (and I saw them do
>this on a show one time, whether baking with Julia or another show, I don't
>remember). Add the butter a few tablespoons at a time. Until incorporated.
>
I have my basic recipe, which is similar to the one Kay posted (cream
the butter with the sugar, etc.) and I have the one from Julia's book.
I noted that BOTH recipes require chilling overnight or at least 4-6
hours.
Since the chilling is required, I'm whipping up the Julia one tonight
and hauling it off to Chi-town tomorrow, where june and I will whup it
into shape.
It should be very tasty -- Mary, just come on over, and you won't need
to do it by yourself. ;-)
Pat Caruthers
|> I have my basic recipe, which is similar to the one Kay posted (cream
|> the butter with the sugar, etc.) and I have the one from Julia's book.
|>
|> I noted that BOTH recipes require chilling overnight or at least 4-6
|> hours.
Oh yeah - i noticed that the first poster didn't mention anything about
chilling over night. I have no real knowledge on just what difference
that would make to the textured of the dough - i'm sure it matters,
but i don't really know what it does.
anyone else know the details of the affect of chilling dough overnite?
pat
Jack and Kay Hartman
In <5li6a9$o...@gazette.engr.sgi.com> pat...@symph.engr.sgi.com (Pat
Caruthers) writes:
>
>Oh yeah - i noticed that the first poster didn't mention anything
about
>chilling over night. I have no real knowledge on just what difference
>that would make to the textured of the dough - i'm sure it matters,
>but i don't really know what it does.
The recipe that June started with as her base is from Stars Desserts by
Emily Luchetti. This recipe does not include an instruction to chill
the dough overnight but it does say that the dough can be risen
overnight in the refrigerator.
Kay
Nancy Dooley
>I have my basic recipe, which is similar to the one Kay posted (cream
>the butter with the sugar, etc.) and I have the one from Julia's book.
>
>I noted that BOTH recipes require chilling overnight or at least 4-6
>hours.
>
>Since the chilling is required, I'm whipping up the Julia one tonight
>and hauling it off to Chi-town tomorrow, where june and I will whup it
>into shape.
>
>It should be very tasty -- Mary, just come on over, and you won't need
>to do it by yourself. ;-)
>
>Nancy.
Er, error.
I'm whipping up the non-Julia one tonight.
idlewild
In article <5lfm7b$4...@gazette.engr.sgi.com>,
Pat Caruthers <pat...@symph.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>
>just asking - have you had fresh brioche before? I mean, you have tasted
>what it is that you are aiming for, right? (i mean that seriously; it
>was years before i tastes and saw a good enough piecrust to know what the
>heck i was supposed to be aiming for). I ask cuz it Isn't supposed to be
>a light, airy, moist bread....it is heavier and crumbly....
no, see, i haven't. that's why i am not sure of what i got. but it was
dry... actually, after sitting in a tupperwear for a day or two, the
moisture equilibrated somewhat. but it was still an odd texture. i'm not
sure how wrong it was, but i am also fairly confident that it was not
right.
Lea
June Oshiro <idle...@mail.webspan.net> wrote:
>i used hotel bar butter. generic, cheapish.
BINGO!
Some wholesale butters are even part margerine and may not say so if
it was not in packaging units for resale. Also some of these butters
will have a high moisture content which makes them go further. Cost
Co and trader joes even sometimes sell this not exactly grade A
butter. Avoid it.
A couple of other things: You might want to put the bowl in a warm
place for the initial proofing period. (oven that has been turned on
high for one minute, only, with door closed. It needs to get a good
start or the butter you add later will may impede the rising . (the
small size implies that).
Also, (and I am appying what I know from croissant baking which is a
bit different), the weather of the day can change things. I baked
croissants for YEARS and there were some days, when they just flopped.
(They say cold stormy days are best!:>)) A wierd thing that I firmly
beleive in is that a kitchen that is baked in a lot will have lots of
yeast spores around, and a "virgin" kitchen will not produce as good
of bread. The more you proof, the better the outcome, because getting
this yeast and butter to cooperate is delicate.
You were right to worry about the butter being TOO soft as well,
(although it sounds like yours WAS too hard. Precutting it into
smaller pieces might help, and keeping your hands cool, as well. Some
recommend a marble bread board and even dipping the hands in icewater,
for croissants, but probably not for Brioche.
From a lot of baking, I swear it LOOKS like a science but it aint.
Its a religion that requires frequent worsip, and tweeking! :>)
Incorporate things slowly, use a light touch,(you can make dough
overtough by long kneading, or too firm a touch, which you also
mentioned, and keep practicing. Joy of Cooking offers nice starting
out recipes that generally work. You can improve them later.
I really admire people that try these harder baking projects, these
days.
Its a cool hobby and one which you can be proud of when it becomes a
"skill".
Lea
DO NOT USE YOUR REPLY BUTTON:
to e mail me send to: lea at sirius dot com
<my reply address is altered to defeat junk mail>
Lea
pat...@symph.engr.sgi.com (Pat Caruthers) wrote:
i used hotel bar butter. generic, cheapish.
>anyone else know the details of the affect of chilling dough overnite?
A VERY SLOW rising period, (again the butter can retard the growth if
the rising period is too fast), and it makes the dough require less
handeling, so it may be more delicate.
One other thing she metioned , I beleive is that it TRIPELED?
hummmmm.... Over rising may have pooped out the yeast. Double ONLY
has always been my rule. If the dough falls back in on itself it is
probably a doomed project. In bread, this will lead to a very yeasty
tast and a bad texture.
Think of butter as being hard work for yeast. It can be food, but it
must be more "slowly" digested. If its too warm, say MELTED it will
coat the little yeasties and suffocate them. If its too big and heavy
it will break their little yeasty backs and they will all file for
workmans comp. You have to "trick" the yeasties by sneaking in that
butter so they icorporate it into the house they are building! >).
If you overise the dough, its like working them way overtime and they
all call in sick for the next rising period. I could be completely
wrong here , but thats how I think of it and it usually works for me!
Adrian Weatherley
I had the same problems with a Brioche my Company made last Xmas for M&S
(No 1 UK store chain). The dough had to be sheeted on a plant, then
folded over & twisted with tomato or pesto inside.
It tasted dry & had to be stored 2-3 days at -1 'C before it could be
used.
I consulted the English Baker's bible called "Manna" by Walter Banfield,
written in the 1940's.
The problem I had was that the recipe was basically OK, but the mixing
area was designed for croissants so was chilled to 8'c.
We had the same problem as you, couldn't mix the butter in despite the
huge Industrial mixer that we used.
A few weeks ago, after consulting my book, I switched the method. Added
the butter to the flour & stuff, and put the egg in last, a bit at a
time, rather like a pound cake mix.
This mix came out like a soft dough, but brilliantly smooth & glossy, a
bit like stiff choux paste.
It handled & proved & baked a dream.
Here is Banfield's recipe just for information.
Though I do see all the response you have had to your problem, hope some
of it was helpful as I went dizzy after reading the first half dozen
Regards
Adrian, Master Baker UK
Bread Flour 3lb
Butter 1+3/4 lb (note I used unsalted lactic butter -French)
Yeast (fresh) 1 + 1/2 oz
Salt 1 oz
Sugar 2 oz
Milk 5 oz
Eggs 15
Mix to a stiff dough, rest 30 mins, then "work in"
Eggs 9
Refridgerate for up to 12 hours, until usable.
Use as required.
You would probably need to divide this recipe by one third for domestic
use.
Michael C. Zusman
On 14 May 1997 19:31:56 EDT, idle...@webspan.net (Idlewild)
proclaimed:
#i made brioche last night. it was awful. please tell me where i
messed
#up.
As others have suggested, butter temp. may have been a problem.
Beyond that, I use the Baking With Julia recipe when I make brioche.
Have done so successfully before, and made it again today. Dough is
chilling in 'fridge per recipe. It really helps to have a Kitchen Aid
and to mix for the whole recommended time. As for the butter, I
follow the recipe religiously, except butter is slightly cooler than
room temp. Otherwise, it is quite difficult to obtain texture recipe
requires (smooth; same texture as dough itself; nongreasy). Best of
luck next time.
Mike Zusman
Idlewild
nancy dooley provided me with dough to make brioche. here's what
happened:
she made the dough on a friday, and it was overnight fridged and given
to me at the cookin on saturday. it rose out a bit saturday evening (i
was gabbing with laura and kate), but i punched it down and fridged it
sunday and monday and part of tuesday (i was visiting friends and had no
time to bake, darn it). i made it back to joisey on tuesday and put it
in bread pans, let it rise till double, and baked it. it reeked of
ethanol by the time i actually shaped it - and the flavor of the dough
had altered as well. it couldn't be helped - i was unable to get to it
earlier.
it baked up into two beautiful golden loaves. i have put them in the
freezer. i wasn't able to try any at all because i have been vomiting
and sitting on the can off and on since yesterday afternoon, and the
thought of eating anything as buttery as brioche made my tummy turn.
sorry nancy, but thank you, and i think it will still taste good when
i'm better and able to eat it. i think the ethanol will have been all
baked off - it certainly smelled good last night.
-j.
--
"Absence makes the heart grow fungus." - Barenaked Ladies
human
J -
There are a couple of places you fell down here.
First, the butter must be at room temperature to be properly
encorporated.
Second, this is nearly impossible to do by hand - go get a Kitchenaid
stand mixer tonight.
Third - after the first rising (to double only, please), refrigerate it
for 6 hours minimum - 2 days max. This slows down the process, allowing
the gluten to mature properly.
Finally, your baking is off. Start at 425F for 5 minutes, lower to 375F
for another 20-25 minutes. Cover it with foil after 15 min total to
keep it from browning too much. By baking it for a long time at a lower
temperature, you dry the bread out and cause much of your final woes.
Todd
Nancy Dooley
On 21 May 1997 22:33:38 EDT, idle...@webspan.net (Idlewild) wrote:
>it baked up into two beautiful golden loaves. i have put them in the
>freezer. i wasn't able to try any at all because i have been vomiting
Sacre bleu! You didn't make ze "brioche" shapes? ;-)
>and sitting on the can off and on since yesterday afternoon, and the
>thought of eating anything as buttery as brioche made my tummy turn.
Sorry you don't feel well....
>
>sorry nancy, but thank you, and i think it will still taste good when
>i'm better and able to eat it. i think the ethanol will have been all
>baked off - it certainly smelled good last night.
I'll go ahead and do the Julia one - maybe this weekend, if I can work
it in with yardwork to do....and give you a report on that recipe,
since you have it, too. Thanks for giving it a shot.
June Oshiro
On Thu, 22 May 1997, Nancy Dooley wrote:
> Sacre bleu! You didn't make ze "brioche" shapes? ;-)
no... :( they were awful cute in those pictures, tho. i just didn't
have the time or the inclination to deal with it, i was feeling crappy.
> Sorry you don't feel well....
i have lost 10 lbs in the last couple of days. like the cabbage soup
diet, only better...?
> I'll go ahead and do the Julia one - maybe this weekend, if I can work
> it in with yardwork to do....and give you a report on that recipe,
> since you have it, too. Thanks for giving it a shot.
>
no, thank /you/. let us know how that turns out.
-j.
t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r
human wrote:
>
> J -
>
> There are a couple of places you fell down here.
>
> First, the butter must be at room temperature to be properly
> encorporated.
>
> Second, this is nearly impossible to do by hand - go get a Kitchenaid
> stand mixer tonight.
Ummm, how did they ever manage *before* there were kitchenaids? :-)
(Not all of us can rush out and buy one of those beauties, especially if
we're grad students...)
>
> Third - after the first rising (to double only, please), refrigerate it
> for 6 hours minimum - 2 days max. This slows down the process, allowing
> the gluten to mature properly.
>
> Finally, your baking is off. Start at 425F for 5 minutes, lower to 375F
> for another 20-25 minutes. Cover it with foil after 15 min total to
> keep it from browning too much. By baking it for a long time at a lower
> temperature, you dry the bread out and cause much of your final woes.
>
> Todd
--
Pat Caruthers
In article <3385C3...@nwu.edu>, t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r <tbla...@nwu.edu> writes:
|> human wrote:
|> >
|> > J -
|> >
|> > There are a couple of places you fell down here.
|> >
|> > First, the butter must be at room temperature to be properly
|> > encorporated.
|> >
|> > Second, this is nearly impossible to do by hand - go get a Kitchenaid
|> > stand mixer tonight.
|>
|> Ummm, how did they ever manage *before* there were kitchenaids? :-)
well, "nearly impossible" isn't the same as impossible ;-)
(and they Used to plow fields by hitching the plow blade to a person, too...)
But you Are right on both counts - it Can be done and the k.a. isn't cheap.
Brioche is one of those breads that i prefer make using the mixer.
i love baking bread, i love kneading bread, but brioche dough takes
more kneading than i actually enjoy... and doing it all by hand would
take even longer than using the mixer, which makes for a Long Time
kneading and a lot of time for the dough to get warmer than you want it.
pat
t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r
I said
> |>
> |> Ummm, how did they ever manage *before* there were kitchenaids? :-)
Then Pat Caruthers said
> well, "nearly impossible" isn't the same as impossible ;-)
> (and they Used to plow fields by hitching the plow blade to a person, too...)
>
Ok, ok, point taken. :)
I guess, this is one more thing to add to the list of reasons why I
can't possibly live without a KA.
> But you Are right on both counts - it Can be done and the k.a. isn't cheap.
>
> Brioche is one of those breads that i prefer make using the mixer.
>
> i love baking bread, i love kneading bread, but brioche dough takes
> more kneading than i actually enjoy... and doing it all by hand would
> take even longer than using the mixer, which makes for a Long Time
> kneading and a lot of time for the dough to get warmer than you want it.
>
> pat
So, what I wanted was a KA, what I got was a Cuisenart (I'm not
complaining, really, it being a gift horse and all that). I've
attempted to make my regular yeast bread in it and ended up kneading by
hand cuz I got so frustrated with the machine. However, the sourdough
works really well in there...could brioche be a candadate for the food
processor (with the dough blade attachement) or would the dough get too
warm in there too?
thanks,
t r i l l i u m
--
Pat Caruthers
|> So, what I wanted was a KA, what I got was a Cuisenart (I'm not
|> complaining, really, it being a gift horse and all that). I've
|> attempted to make my regular yeast bread in it and ended up kneading by
|> hand cuz I got so frustrated with the machine. However, the sourdough
|> works really well in there...could brioche be a candadate for the food
|> processor (with the dough blade attachement) or would the dough get too
|> warm in there too?
i suspect it wouldn't get to warm (its the warmth of your hands the
cause the problem with buttery dough). I'd give it a try and find out,
m'self.
pat
Nancy Dooley
>works really well in there...could brioche be a candadate for the food
>processor (with the dough blade attachement) or would the dough get too
>warm in there too?
>
>t r i l l i u m
You could try it, with a half recipe or something. Julia's Baking
book says you really have to listen to the "slap, slap, slap," of the
dough going around and being "kneaded" by the dough hook. You add the
butter (solid, but not chilled) in chunks, and then let the dough
recover to its slap-slap stage each time. Total KA kneading time is
around 25 minutes.
I doubt a processor could take that kind of workout, but then I don't
have one, so I don't really know.
t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r
Nancy Dooley wrote:
>
>
> You could try it, with a half recipe or something. Julia's Baking
> book says you really have to listen to the "slap, slap, slap," of the
> dough going around and being "kneaded" by the dough hook. You add the
> butter (solid, but not chilled) in chunks, and then let the dough
> recover to its slap-slap stage each time. Total KA kneading time is
> around 25 minutes.
>
> I doubt a processor could take that kind of workout, but then I don't
> have one, so I don't really know.
>
> Nancy.
I think that it could run that long, it's a pretty sturdy machine (and
the motor is warrentied for 5 yrs), but what I'm worried about is that
the bowl sits on directly on top of the motor, which generates heat, and
so the dough will get overheated. Well, I guess there's only one way to
find out! Do you like the JC baking book? I really, really want to buy
a copy, it seems very instructive.
regards,
t r i l l i u m
--
t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r
Pat Caruthers wrote:
>
> i suspect it wouldn't get to warm (its the warmth of your hands the
> cause the problem with buttery dough). I'd give it a try and find out,
> m'self.
>
> pat
That's exactly what I'm gonna do, and I'll let rfcers know how it turns
out. I'm not sure how hot the motor gets, and since the bowl sits
directly on the motor it's a concern...maybe I should just get my mum
(who's got a KA) to make it and send it to me! :)
thanks,
Pat Caruthers
In article <338F39...@nwu.edu>, t r i l l i u m b l a c k m e r <tbla...@nwu.edu> writes:
|> Do you like the JC baking book? I really, really want to buy
|> a copy, it seems very instructive.
i Love it.
it has the best how-to descriptions i've ever read, good pictures
and great tips on how to know when things are "done".
pat