Quiet please, we're dancing...
Nancy Martin
"Gloria Krusemeyer" <danc...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:th99ucg...@corp.supernews.com...
> Live music is not conducive to being able to concentrate on challenging
> hash. The music gets too interesting. <g> I would hate to be a musician
> and be expected to play in the background, coming forward only when the
> caller says "allemande left, Right & Left Grand" or "And you're home",
then
> immediately fade again.
I just can't imagine how music could get in the way of dancing. You'll have
to help me with that one. A lot. If wondrous, rousing fiddling detracts from
the fun of square dancing, then challenging hash must not really be dancing.
Maybe its more akin to playing basketball :-)
I do think that the more cerebral that social dance gets, the less it
resembles social dance. But, I confess that I look at MWSD from the
perspective of a rabid fan of traditional ethnic dance and music, and from
that musty corner the over-organized, recording-addicted, antiseptic
environments of MWSD, IFD, RSCDS, and LMNOP look mighty dismal. I
mean, its shame enough to artificially separate the musician from the dancer
to pad the caller's wallet, but then to hold that even
the canned music messes up the dancing? Lawdy me! Where are my
smelling salts...
> On the other hand, as a dancer, I would love nothing better than having a
> live band that could and would be absolutely unobtrusive when necessary
Ahem. If dance music, by nature, bothers an activity, one would have to
conclude that the activity is probably not dance but something else.
Bill Martin
Isiafs5
>> Live music is not conducive to being able to concentrate on challenging
>> hash.
Most dancers that I know prefer live music.
Sling Skate
Christopher Stacy
Nancy> conclude that the activity is probably not dance but something else.
Dances are done to particular kinds of music, not arbitrary music.
In MWSD, the type and presentation format of the music is not exactly the
same as in contra dancing, and the music plays a slightly different role.
That's one of many reasons why we don't refer to MWSD as "contra dancing",
but I don't think it's reasonable to follow a logic chain that concludes
that MWSD is not dancing.
CareySchug
(Isiafs5) writes:
>Most dancers that I know prefer live music.
The guy at the bar says "most people I know like 6-8 drinks every night"
The guy at the drag strip says "most people I know want to hit 200 mph".
The couple at the MWSD says "most people we know prefer records".
So what?
CareySchug
<mar...@teleport.com> writes:
> one would have to
>conclude that the activity is probably not dance but something else.
In other words, contra dancers limit their dancing so that it will not
interfere with the music, so one could equally conclude that contra dancing is
not dancing, but rather it is "listening to music".
"equally conclude" means that I see Nancy's point, but an unbiased observer
would see other interpretations that are just as likely.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Excuse me? I've done irish dances that work just like "hash" dances. And
we always use live music. If the music is "interfering," the dancers need
to learn selective listening. Or the caller needs to learn some new skills.
I've done this type of thing with and without a PA system, so it's not
really that.
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert KD6WUR l...@retro.com
Head Muso, White Rats Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
Christopher Stacy
Lee> Excuse me? I've done irish dances that work just like "hash" dances.
Lee> And we always use live music. If the music is "interfering,"
I think that part of the discussion was about MWSD, not "traditional"
or "old time" squares dancing, so I'm going to answer in that way.
The MWSD "hash" is distinguished from the "singing call" by
the fact that it is not interpsersed with (eg. popular) song lyrics;
also the hash is (as far as the dancer is concerned) extemporaneous,
totally random, and non-repeating; for the singing call, some callers
choose to use sequences of repeating combinations of figures.
I can imagine that someone who has done a lot of contra dancing would
find that kind of live music to be too distracting for MWSD. My own
exposure to that live music has been limited, so I couldn't say.
I can say that I have called and danced MWSD to live music (played by
popular contra bands here in New England), and it wasn't any kind of
problem for myself or the dancers. I enjoyed working with the the
musicians, and the dancers thought it was a novel treat. I do prefer
the recorded music for MWSD, but it's not because I consider the live
music too distracting.
Dancing MWSD and dancing contras are two very different kinds of
experiences. They are fundamentally not much alike, despite some
superficial similarities and a little bit of shared history.
Contra dancers are much more tuned into the music, and move to
the music. It can get almost trancelike. MWSD dancers only
casually notice the music, the dance is not phrased at all,
they move sort of roughly to the beat, and there is some
amount of standing around still.
MWSD dancers are extremely keyed to the choreography being given
by the caller, because the sequence and combinations of calls is
continuously different for every moment, there are no repeating
patterns at all, most calls are done in about 1 second, and the
combinations and calls can be very complex. A normal-level dancer,
has a vocubulary of about 100 calls, while a higher-level ("challenge")
dancer will know hundreds or even thousands. They are, every fraction
of every second, totally absorbed in puzzling out what the caller wants.
Their brains may not have enough left over active capacity to fully
appreciate the music, and certain kinds of music could actually
distract them. (I am not saying that live music would be too
distracting, merely suggesting that it's possible that some kind
of music could be.) Distracting an MWSD dancer for even one second
might easily cause a mistake, which will likely cause the entire set
to go crashing down in flames.
Which brings me to my next question, directed to Lee Thompson-Herbert.
Does Irish dancing (can you say more about that, because I don't know
what it is, and possibly have never seen it) really totally vary
complicated choreography, extemporaneously, in real time, like MWSD?
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Christopher Stacy <cst...@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:
[...]
>Which brings me to my next question, directed to Lee Thompson-Herbert.
>Does Irish dancing (can you say more about that, because I don't know
>what it is, and possibly have never seen it) really totally vary
>complicated choreography, extemporaneously, in real time, like MWSD?
The _local_ tradition in Berkeley includes a variant of the Kerry Set
which does use on-the-fly choreography. If things crash and burn, you
can always call a Polka figure again. The fact that we don't get all
upset if things crash and burn is what makes the difference. And even
moves that cross the phrase of the music _are_ done on the beat. That
would be the major difference.
There's one major rule for a Berkeley Set, and that's if you get lost
GO HOME. But don't go home through the middle of the set where everyone
else is still trying to do the figure. Again, it's simply a difference
in attitude more than anything else. Oh, and did I mention our musicians
like to vary the tempos? Gotta pay attention.
If you're not listening to the music, it isn't dancing anymore. It's
synchronized movement, but it's not dance.
Christopher Stacy
attempts to define for me what the meaning of the word "dance" is...
CareySchug
I would still go to an occasional TAC, except (1) they are all either
over an hour away by driving, or in areas where parking is impossible,
and the 4-6 block from a likely parking space poses some personal
safety risk and (2) there were so many excess men that I only
got to dance less than half the time anyway. When I lived in the
city and I could just hop on the train to go to the TAC dance, I did.
In article <uk82v2...@spacy.Boston.MA.US>, Christopher Stacy
<cst...@spacy.Boston.MA.US> writes:
> ...They are, every fraction
>of every second, totally absorbed in puzzling out what the caller wants.
>
>Their brains may not have enough left over active capacity to fully
>appreciate the music, and certain kinds of music could actually
>distract them.
Well, that's true for some of them. Depending upon the club, it could be
most of the people or just one each in half the squares.
Some are listening to the music, some are planning their next day, a few
are intermittently chatting with some others in the square. For these, as
long as everybody else is pretty close to where they are suppose to be,
keep up with the calls using only part of their brain.
A few dancers can keep track of where everybody should be, so
can direct a single lost dancer back where they belong, but
if several get confused it is still too much. Sequences in MWSD tend
to last a minute or two, so one flub could cause a lot of time waiting for the
next sequence to get going again.
In a typical square, the one or two people who require full concentration
could cause the whole square to get lost (one taking down the next, like
pushing down a chain of dominos).
In a contra, the repetition tends to be shorter, and everybody returns to home
position several times in a sequence, so even if one person is totally lost,
the
others don't miss much dancing. Also, since it does repeat, you haven't
missed as much if you break down once in a while, while in MWSD that
sequence will never be repeated, at least not that evening (that caller may
pre-write his hash sequences and repeat one at another dance 2 months
later).
---------------------------------
I think a larger impediment to live bands would be the cost, since I
believe MWSD callers charge more than TAC callers, adding a band
would make the dance very expensive. One reason they charge more
is that many or most spend time writing hash sequences before each
dance they call at. They also have to practice the singing calls. Yes
I am sure TAC callers practice some too.
It may also be habit. Since MWSD requires a set of lessons for most
dancers (I won't quibble whether it should be 10 lessons or 50), and it
would clearly be wasteful and very expensive to have live music for
lessons. Lessons are typically smaller groups than dances, and
much of the time is spent walking and teaching sans music, so the
band would sit around nearly all the time. By the time the dancers
complete their lessons, they are used to dancing to records, and a
change to live music would only be confusing. If you can find a
band to donate their time to the lessons, I'll bet those dancers would
prefer live music when they graduated.
Here is a challange I will place to the MWSD and TAC communities, kind of as
a trial: In one of the areas where there is a dedicated MWSD dance hall, with
multiple rooms. Open up one of the rooms to a TAC group. Try "borrowing"
their
band for one tip a night at the MWSD dance. If that flies, try two tips.
Maybe if
there is a large enough group to support the expense they could develop a group
of MWSD dancers who will prefer the live bands.
My personal preference would be to have some tips to TAC type bands, and
some to records. But you'd still have to pay the band for the whole evening,
so it would not be cost effective unless you could share them with a TAC
dance in the next room.
Remember, it has also been pointed out here that records allow a larger range
of music styles and the "fullness" that comes from a larger band that produced
the recordings. Most MWSD dancers like the singing calls (I, like most
challenge
dancers generally do not). The singing calls rely on an exact length and
sectioning
of music, as the caller has to time each part correctly. If the caller and band
could
work out alternate calls and songs, variations could be made, but they would
have
spend time planning, then practice, and somebody would have to pay for their
time
doing that. I believe (Christopher Stacey could verify this) that all singing
calls
are one of two timings. All are intro-two verses-break-two verses-close. The
intro-break close are the same length (though there may be extra music at the
end)
and the verses are the same. In different singing calls, there are two lengths
of
verse. Also, of course, they are singing calls because in the
intro-break-close
there is a long time during which the caller sings the original song that went
with the
tune, and often periods where he throws in a few orignal words during the
verses.
During each verse, the women advance one position counter clockwise around the
square, so exactly 4 verses are needed. (aside: years ago some callers did
other
progressions during the verse, eithe clockwise or more complex, such as cw,
cross, ccw, cross, but I have not seen that in the last 5-10 years.
Christopher,
care to comment?).
BTW, most MWSD dancers *DO* not have to think during singing calls, and they
do enjoy the music and the SINGING the caller does.
I don't notice the TAC people telling the IFD people that there is something
wrong with them because they don't use live music. It's the same old story
that
TAC people have some drive to try to put down MWSD. I wish I knew why.
I'm willing to bet that MWSD dancers would be happy to dance to live bands, if
the
cost was not prohibitive. Not the 4-8 piece ensembles that (in my experience)
play
for TAC, but the 20-30 piece dance bands that typically produce the music they
are
accustomed to. Those dance bands, when they play at ballroom dances don't do
the improvisation and surprises that TAC ensembles are noted for. Some
variation
from straight tunes, but not the free wheeling improv done by TAC bands. I am
not
putting it down, I like it as music, but when a call takes 8 or 16 measures of
music,
as in one complete phrasing, and the tune changes three times during that
period,
it would be difficult for all the squares on the floor to end at the same time.
Nancy Martin
> I always terminate my involvement in any discussion wherein someone
> attempts to define for me what the meaning of the word "dance" is...
Well, you done already stepped in it so you can't back out now! The subject
of this thread is about the meaning of the word "dance", so stick around and
give us your take on it. I just feel that you have to balance the cerebral
against the mindlessly physical and that the dance movement has to be driven
by the beat or the spirit of the music. It appears to me that MWSD has
tipped the scales so far away from brainless movement guided by music that
it has become exercise rather than dance. Now let me run out to left field
and catch that fly ball you are about to smack...
From: "CareySchug" <carey...@aol.com>
> My personal preference would be to have some tips to TAC type bands, and
> some to records.
My band did that for an MWSD New Year party, alternating with recorded
music. Worked just dandy, mostly because the two callers were superb. I'll
say this about MWSD callers, when they are good they are a real kick in the
pants. I call traditional squares but I model my calling on those MWSD guys.
Bill Martin
bogus address
> Since MWSD requires a set of lessons for most dancers (I won't quibble
> whether it should be 10 lessons or 50), and it would clearly be wasteful
> and very expensive to have live music for lessons.
Here, it's normal to have a live musician for lessons in Scottish dance.
One fiddler or pianist is all it takes.
> By the time the dancers complete their lessons, they are used to dancing
> to records, and a change to live music would only be confusing.
Surely this isn't a problem introduced by such lessons? Most people in
the developed world start out dancing to records anyway. Doing it a bit
longer isn't going to add any new preconceptions or disabilities.
> I don't notice the TAC people telling the IFD people that there is
> something wrong with them because they don't use live music.
Well, they ought to 'cos there *is* something wrong with them. (I don't
get this "international folk dance" thing at all. What on earth is the
point in doing the dances of a dozen different cultures and not getting
the time or breadth of exposure to understand any of them properly?)
I don't know if the IFD crowd take on dances from Romania or the Black Sea
coast of Turkey, but they're clear examples where dancing to records would
be totally bizarre - the music is improvised on the spot to fit the dance,
the tunes aren't fixed but assembled from a collection of stock motifs.
In the case of the Black Sea dances, the leader calls, dances and plays
the fiddle at the same time, using dramatic stunts like holding the fiddle
over his head to whip the energy level up. How does a CD player match that?
I think the only common kind of dancing done to the victrola in the UK is
Western line dancing, and that's faded in popularity in the last few years.
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Andrew Tannenbaum
Isiafs5 <isi...@aol.com> wrote:
>Most dancers that I know prefer live music.
> Sling Skate
Well, most dancers probably dance in dance clubs, ya know, trance,
house, industrial, techno, etc. Not only are the cuts pre-recorded,
many of them are just mixed at recording studio consoles, they have
never even seen a band. These dancers never expect a band. DJ's are
the stars. DJ's are usually live, though you might think that people
could just spin tapes of old sets. That's not folk music? Well,
maybe they aren't your folks.
How about country dancing (couple and line dancing to American country
music)? Ain't they folks? That music is usually recorded too. You
might be able to tush push to various tunes, but the achey breaky
just isn't the same unless you do it to the definitive Billy Ray Cyrus
recording.
Contra dance is best with good live music. We have great live contra
dance music here in New England, and I enjoy it thoroughly.
I also dance some international and lots of Israeli. International is
often to recorded music and sometimes to live music. The international
dance world is stable enough that a talented band can do a good job of
developing a repertoire, and can make for great dancing.
On the other hand, it would be impossible for a single band, or even
all the international dance bands in a city, to have the diversity of
sound found in a modest collection of recordings. The same way that a
single band, even a great one, can't do such a good job playing the
top 40 tunes on any of today's pop music charts.
Israeli dance has an active flow of newly choreographed dances. Folk
purists say, well, if it isn't traditional, it isn't folk. Yawn.
Watch a video of Israeli or country dancing without the sound and tell
me the difference between those and what you call folk dancing.
Israeli dance music is as diverse as international dance music, drawn
from Israeli folk, Israeli pop, Greek, Turkish, Yemeni, Moroccan,
Russian, Italian, Spanish, French, Mexican, Brazilian, Chassidic,
Klezmer, Ladino, and more. The dances are specifically choreographed
to particular recordings - throw in an extra bar, or leave out a
chorus, and the dance collapses. The distinctive recordings provide a
diversity of sound that no single band can match. In most dance
communities, it would be difficult to find enough musicians to play
the large, diverse, and evolving repertoire of Israeli dance music.
This is especially true when a Israeli choreographer writes a messy
new 8-part dance to some funky crooked piece of new music, often
written for a festival or presented at a dance camp. It's the new hot
flavor of the month - probably ephemeral, and everyone wants to learn
the dance, but it's a lot easier to play a new recording than to have
bands around the world learning the tune. It's probably not a simple
matter of learning an A and a B and playing two of each.
I definitely agree that contra dancing wouldn't be as cool if we danced
to recordings instead of to the living flesh of Wild Asparagus,
Yankee Ingenuity, Hillbillies from Mars, Big Table, Popcorn Behavior,
Uncle Gizmo, Nightingale, Airdance, Reckless Abandon, and so forth.
If I go Israeli dancing, I really enjoy the diversity of the
collection of mp3's. And if I go to a dance club or a rave, I can
manage to have fun even with music that has never even been played by
a live band.
Is it live or is it Memorex? My verdict? Both.
Andy
DMurphy139
>> something wrong with them because they don't use live music.
>
>Well, they ought to 'cos there *is* something wrong with them.
What I don't understand, Mr. Bogus, is why you and a few others in this forum
seem obsessed with hurling scorn and sarcasm at people who enjoy dancing to
recorded music.
Denis Murphy
Cynthia M. Van Ness
> What I don't understand, Mr. Bogus, is why you and a few others in this forum
> seem obsessed with hurling scorn and sarcasm at people who enjoy dancing to
> recorded music.
It's way too easy to resort to scorn and sarcasm in cyberspace and
everyone should exercise restraint. After all, you might have to swing
the person you just flamed at your next big dance festival.
But I just have to toss in my $.02.
I see it like this: preferring dead music to live is like preferring
canned food from the convenience store when all around you are farmers
struggling to make a living by growing the real thing.
Picture this conversation turned 180 degrees, in which a bunch of
musicians are logged in to their favorite newsgroup, waxing poetic about
the joys of playing with no dancers to distract them from complex riffs,
turning down gigs, and substituting videotapes of dancers instead.
Now, my fellow dancers, how does it feel to be replaced by a machine?
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:**:-.,_,.-*
Cynthia Van Ness, MLS, af...@bfn.org / http://cynthia.is-online.net
"Cities need old buildings so badly it is probably impossible for vigorous
streets and districts to grow without them." --Jane Jacobs, 1961
Daniel E. Damouth
<mar...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Says Christopher Stacy:
>> I always terminate my involvement in any discussion wherein someone
>> attempts to define for me what the meaning of the word "dance" is...
>
>Well, you done already stepped in it so you can't back out now! The subject
>of this thread is about the meaning of the word "dance", so stick around and
>give us your take on it.
I think the question of whether dancing has to involve music is very
deep. Clearly the connection between music and movement is stronger
in contra then MWSD (to select two forms I'm familiar with). If the
music slows in contra, the dancers will slow their steps, since steps
occur on beats, and figures involving balancing have a particular
cadence to them. In MWSD it seems people don't listen to beats. When
I danced it wasn't even possible to connect steps to beats or measures
or phrases because the beats were too fast and the measures and
phrases had nothing to do with the figures.
However, I could dance in the absence of either live or recorded
music. In that case, is the music in my head?
> I just feel that you have to balance the cerebral
>against the mindlessly physical and that the dance movement has to be driven
>by the beat or the spirit of the music. It appears to me that MWSD has
>tipped the scales so far away from brainless movement guided by music that
>it has become exercise rather than dance.
Perhaps ironically, it was the mental exercise that attracted me to
MWSD, and I still admire it. It's dance in the sense that you are
coordinating physical movements in patterns with other people. It's
cooperative and it can be a social experience. The music is
background. You're really dancing to the caller. But it's still
dancing IMO.
> I'll
>say this about MWSD callers, when they are good they are a real kick in the
>pants.
I totally agree. Good MWSD callers are far more capable of
envisioning patterns of movement than any contra caller I've seen. I
sometimes wish there were contra callers who would make up the calls
as they go along, rather than repeating the same 64 beats, because I
enjoy such challenges as a dancer. But that would be much more
difficult for contra callers (all of whom are amateurs, I think), and
perhaps for most dancers as well. So it wouldn't work out except,
perhaps, as a novelty at a special dance fanatic contra dancers :)
Dan Damouth
Buffy (to Angel): I know everything that you did, because you did it to me.
-- BtVS, "Amends"
Jon Leech
Cynthia M. Van Ness <af...@bfn.org> wrote:
>I see it like this: preferring dead music to live is like preferring
>canned food from the convenience store when all around you are farmers
>struggling to make a living by growing the real thing.
Poster seen at a restaurant last week: "Dancing 7:30-9 with Live
DJ!"
What, they were using a dead DJ before?
Jon
__@/
Todd Smith
> envisioning patterns of movement than any contra caller I've seen. I
> sometimes wish there were contra callers who would make up the calls
> as they go along, rather than repeating the same 64 beats, because I
> enjoy such challenges as a dancer. But that would be much more
> difficult for contra callers (all of whom are amateurs, I think), and
> perhaps for most dancers as well. So it wouldn't work out except,
> perhaps, as a novelty at a special dance fanatic contra dancers :)
Medleys are fairly common at dance festivals and other special events,
but they are not very new-comer friendly and don't get done
at regular dances often. (at least not on purpose)
They _are_ real fun too.
BTW. There are many professinal contra callers out there.
Toad
bogus address
> Picture this conversation turned 180 degrees, in which a bunch of
> musicians are logged in to their favorite newsgroup, waxing poetic about
> the joys of playing with no dancers to distract them from complex riffs,
> turning down gigs, and substituting videotapes of dancers instead.
> Now, my fellow dancers, how does it feel to be replaced by a machine?
It's already started. Folk instrument shops here have recently been
selling little wooden marionettes mounted on boards that you can make
to dance by banging the other end - never saw these until a couple of
years ago. There aren't many instruments you can play while working
them, though (mouth music?). Just you wait till we invent the steam
engine.
Bob Archer
smi...@ct2.nai.net says...
> BTW. There are many professinal contra callers out there.
Could you elaborate a bit on this. I can think of three different
definitions of professional that might apply:
1. Gets paid for calling.
2. Earns most of their money from calling
3. Actually makes a living from calling (i.e. earns enough from calling
that with no other source of income they can pay for food, rent etc.)
I know a lot of people in category 1, a few (two) in category 2 and none
in category 3, but I'd be interested to hear about more people in
categories 2 and 3.
Bob
Dan Pearl
Jack Campin <j...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>It's already started. Folk instrument shops here have recently been
>selling little wooden marionettes mounted on boards that you can make
>to dance by banging the other end - never saw these until a couple of
>years ago.
These are called limberjacks, and they reportedly originated in the
Appalachian mountains of North America during colonial days.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Pearl ** Stratus Computer, Inc.
I represent the views of my employer. [*WHAP!*] NO HE DOESN'T
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>
>> Picture this conversation turned 180 degrees, in which a bunch of
>> musicians are logged in to their favorite newsgroup, waxing poetic about
>> the joys of playing with no dancers to distract them from complex riffs,
>> turning down gigs, and substituting videotapes of dancers instead.
>> Now, my fellow dancers, how does it feel to be replaced by a machine?
>
>It's already started. Folk instrument shops here have recently been
>selling little wooden marionettes mounted on boards that you can make
>to dance by banging the other end - never saw these until a couple of
>years ago.
Those have been around over here for decades at least.
>There aren't many instruments you can play while working
>them, though (mouth music?). Just you wait till we invent the steam
>engine.
I tremble in fear.
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
Professional = "gets paid for it"? Yes.
Professional = "has a professional attitude"? Yes.
Professional = "makes a living at it?" That's news to me.
Daniel E. Damouth
wrote:
I'm not talking about medleys, which is when pre-existing dances are
called one after the other without stopping. I'm talking about actual
improvisation by the caller, making it up as they go along, stringing
figures together without repetition, and making it work. That's what
the MWSD callers do, and that's what I haven't seen in my (admittedly
not extensive) contra experience. I find it impressive.
I find contra medleys tons of fun and wish we did more of them, but as
you said, they aren't particularly newbie friendly.
Daniel E. Damouth
>> sometimes wish there were contra callers who would make up the calls
>> as they go along, rather than repeating the same 64 beats, because I
>> enjoy such challenges as a dancer. But that would be much more
>> difficult for contra callers (all of whom are amateurs, I think), and
>> perhaps for most dancers as well.
[...]
>BTW. There are many professinal contra callers out there.
Perhaps Mr. Stacy could elaborate on what it takes to be a
professional MWSD caller. All I know is that some of them seem to
spend all their time doing it, get almost superhumanly good at
stringing dance figures together in their head in real time, and make
a career out of it to support themselves.
Todd Smith
George Marshall,
Kathy Anderson
Beth Molaro
others ?
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>> Professional = "makes a living at it?" That's news to me.
>
>Kathy Anderson
>Beth Molaro
>others ?
News to me that there were a lot of them. (And I didn't know about Beth
Molaro, actually.)
Phil and Carol Good-Elliott
"contra dance" events. There are many good square dance callers out there
who call squares for contradancers (first thought: Kathy Anderson, then
Larry Edelman, then Beth Molaro, and so forth). Larry is an incredible
caller who can improvise squares on the fly. I've had the pleasure of
getting to dance to his calling at a CDSS camp. Incredible stuff.
I've also had the pleasure of dancing "Cheesecake Square" at Balance and
Swim (as hosted by the Cobos'). At a primarily contradance event, people
form square "teams" and must dance to the figures called by ever changing
callers. Those squares that blow-it or can't fake it (wink), get "roped off"
the dance floor. Winner enjoyed Cheesecake freshly made by Charlotte (I
think). Anyway, it was a challenge and a lot of fun.
Daniel E. Damouth at dam...@san.rr.com wrote on 6/5/01 7:04 pm:
Christopher Stacy
Bob> In article <smithmt-202612...@nnrp04.earthlink.net>,
Bob> smi...@ct2.nai.net says...
>> BTW. There are many professinal contra callers out there.
Bob> Could you elaborate a bit on this. I can think of three different
Bob> definitions of professional that might apply:
Bob> 1. Gets paid for calling.
Bob> 2. Earns most of their money from calling
Bob> 3. Actually makes a living from calling (i.e. earns enough from calling
Bob> that with no other source of income they can pay for food, rent etc.)
Bob> I know a lot of people in category 1, a few (two) in category 2 and none
Bob> in category 3, but I'd be interested to hear about more people in
Bob> categories 2 and 3.
Dunno about contras, but I can tell you a little about MWSD callers,
and then hopefully someone will be able to compare them for us.
Different people have different ideas for the meaning of the word
"professional", but to me it implies a certain standard of quality
and commitment; and, maybe it also means not losing money doing it!
If you hang out a shingle, people hire you, and you deliver a credible
service that is respected by your customers, that's probably evidence
that you are a professional, regardless of whether you made a profit.
In MWSD it is normal for callers to always get paid (1), and I think
many or most of them recoup their expenses and make a little dough (2).
Some small percentage of them are actually living off it (3).
Most callers participate in fund-raiser dances, where they donate their
time and talent in order raise money for non-profit groups. Sometimes its
for medical charities like the American Cancer Association, and sometimes
it's for something square dance related such as a dance historical foundation.
Here in New England we also have an annual non-profit square dance festival
where everything is done by volunteers, and most of the callers there are
professionals.
A few people have also been known to call some regular dances or small
workshops for free just because they think it's fun or something, but
that's rather unusual. Come to think of it, I have sometimes called
free workshops for the college club where I learned to dance, but
usually I charge them. I call for the dancers at small private
(eg. birthday) parties of my close square dance friends.
It's not real cheap or easy to get into calling. Aside from the large
investment in time (and often, considerable money) for training, MWSD
callers have to invest in sound equipment (about $3,000) and recorded
music ($50/month). Also, there are yearly fees (around $100) for the
BMI/ASCAP licensing and caller liability insurance. Most professional
callers have some small advertising costs ($20-50/month). There are also
small random expenses for publications, national and regional guild dues,
miscellaneous parts, and other stuff that doesn't come to mind.
Many callers have invested in costumes which may be expensive.
I would guess that the cost is akin to becoming a working musician:
instruments, music, random junk; although musicians have far more
initial training investments. What kind of unique costs do contra
musicians and bands have?
As for the other ongoing costs to the caller...Some dances can be called
off the top of one's head, while other dances may require hours or even
many full days of preperation. There is also travel time and expenses
(car, maybe hotel, airline). Many callers put on their own dances,
with all that entails (hall rental, advertising, refreshments, etc.)
As we all know, they do not have to pay a band, though :)
Claire Chang
lisa greenleaf
david kaynor
jacqueline schwab
Alan Vlach
Beth Molaro is in category 3, but from what I can tell, she also lives
very frugally. She mentioned at Trillium Twirl that with the new baby
she might have to think about getting at least part-time work (in
addition to calling).
Becky Hill, an enormously in-demand caller, has a day job.
Alan Vlach
Bob Archer
@mhc.mtholyoke.edu>, cch...@mtholyoke.edu says...
How many of these people actually fit into my category (3) though?
3. Actually makes a living from calling (i.e. earns enough from calling
that with no other source of income they can pay for food, rent etc.)
At least three of the names mentioned are also musicians. I know a
number of "professional folkies" who earn their living through a variety
of folk activities which sometimes includes calling, I'm really trying
to narrow it down to the calling.
Bob
Nancy Martin
"Daniel E. Damouth" <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3b1d647a.11434870@news-server...
> I'm not talking about medleys, which is when pre-existing dances are
> called one after the other without stopping. I'm talking about actual
> improvisation by the caller, making it up as they go along, stringing
> figures together without repetition, and making it work. That's what
> the MWSD callers do, and that's what I haven't seen in my (admittedly
> not extensive) contra experience.
Hash is hash and contra is contra. While hash can be really fun, a hashified
contra dance would no longer be a contra dance. Figures are simply figures;
stringing them together could be an interesting mental exercise, but contras
have that fabled "storyline". There's a beginning and an end, and ideally a
unique itinerary from entry to exit that marks that dance, places it
historically, sticks in your mind the way a good melody does. Contras, like
other folk dances, are walking poems or short stories. You can have a whole
book full of them, each one unique. But if you stick them all in a blender
to see what comes out... well, the resulting mush won't be a contra dance,
though it might be fun. Especially if you toss in a couple of frogs.
Bill Martin
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>david kaynor
>jacqueline schwab
>
Not to bandy other people's finances about too much, but I think Jacqueline
makes a living as a musician with some English dance calling and no contra
dance calling (which was where we started); one of David's waltzes was written
while he was working as a teacher's aide, so I was assuming he did more of
that kind of work.
Bob Archer
wrote:
> At least three of the names mentioned are also musicians. I know a
> number of "professional folkies" who earn their living through a variety
> of folk activities which sometimes includes calling, I'm really trying
> to narrow it down to the calling.
In article <009FD20A...@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,
win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU says...
> Not to bandy other people's finances about too much...
Alan makes a good point, I apologise for leading the conversation
towards speculation of named individual's incomes and if possible would
like to steer it away from that and back towards the more general.
Bob
Nancy Martin
"Claire Chang" <cch...@mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.21.010606...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu...
Little Orley
Bugs Bunny... Well, alright, they also have other jobs. But, they could make
a living at it I bet.
Bill Martin (Its my signature, not an entry in the list!)
Dave Goldman
<mar...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Hash is hash and contra is contra. While hash can be really fun, a hashified
> contra dance would no longer be a contra dance.
Oh feh.
Years ago, at the Fiddletunes festival in Port Townsend, WA, I danced to
Cammy Kaynor calling a hash contra. It was great. And it was most
certainly a contra dance.
It was also the only time I've heard a contra caller do hash calling.
Anyone else?
- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
David Kaynor
"...one of David's waltzes was written while
he was working as a teacher's aide, so I was
assuming he did more of that kind of work..."
Indeed: Back then, I was working as a paraprofessional in a high school
special education program. Today, I believe that many of our students did
NOT wind up on welfare, in jail, or dead...a measure of success if there
ever was one.
I have had a few other day jobs for varying amounts of time.
Most of the past 11 years or so, other than lessons, musical gigs outside
the dance scene, and occasional calligraphy/graphic arts projects, I've had
no significant non-dance-related work.
People frequently ask me, "Do you make a living doing this?" which, in more
self-punishing moments, I tend to take as commentary on how amateurish they
consider me. But nonetheless, I often feel like saying, "Yes...well,
actually, sort of. Talking on the phone, doing e-mail, and driving are the
work; playing music and calling are part of the pay."
David Kaynor
CareySchug
>While hash can be really fun, a hashified
>contra dance would no longer be a contra dance.
Bill Martin has declared what is dance and what is not?
CareySchug
Cynthia M. Van Ness <af...@bfn.org> wrote:
>I see it like this: preferring dead music to live is like preferring
>canned food from the convenience store when all around you are farmers
>struggling to make a living by growing the real thing.
I could continue this put down by saying that wasting fine instruments on the
simplistic tunes played at dances is a crying shame when there are symphonies
and chamber ensembles around. It would be no different. But I won't.
This is supposed to be fun, lighten up.
CareySchug
<adv...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> 3. Actually makes a living from calling (i.e. earns enough from calling
>> that with no other source of income they can pay for food, rent etc.)
Many MWSD callers do this. Is that bad or good? Does it count if they earn
money producing records, on one side of which is a dance thay with them calling
it? Does promoting a squar dance cruise where they get paid by the cruise line
for signing up hundreds of dancers to the cruise count?
BTW, there are several definitions of "professional" (I am selecting a few that
may be being used by different people here):
1c. characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a
profession.
2a. participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field often engaged
by amateurs.
Martins
"CareySchug" <carey...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608232526...@nso-fp.aol.com...
> Bill Martin has declared what is dance and what is not?
I thought I'd give it a try, anyway.
Bill Martin
Cynthia M. Van Ness
I dunno about you, but coming up with a clever analogy is lots of fun! If
you're not enjoying yourself as much as I am, it must be time to log off
and go dance.
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:**:-.,_,.-*
Cynthia Van Ness, MLS, af...@bfn.org / http://cynthia.is-online.net
"Cities need old buildings so badly it is probably impossible for vigorous
streets and districts to grow without them." --Jane Jacobs, 1961
Daniel E. Damouth
<mar...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Hash is hash and contra is contra. While hash can be really fun, a hashified
>contra dance would no longer be a contra dance. Figures are simply figures;
>stringing them together could be an interesting mental exercise, but contras
>have that fabled "storyline".
I'm afraid the storyline doesn't come through most of the time, at
least to me. In fact I can think of very few contras I've done that
seem to have a storyline. I'm more of a fan of "flow", or the smooth
and enjoyable transitioning from one figure to the next, or even
"theme", the focus on one kind of structure in a dance, than
storyline. To put a storyline on a conta is a bit like forming
pictures out of the clouds, in my opinion.
>There's a beginning and an end, and ideally a
>unique itinerary from entry to exit that marks that dance, places it
>historically, sticks in your mind the way a good melody does. Contras, like
>other folk dances, are walking poems or short stories.
I think the comparison of a contra to a poem is stretching it. The
possible combinations of words and structures that go into a poem are
literally tens of thousands of times more numerous than the
combinations of figures that go into a contra dance.
>You can have a whole
>book full of them, each one unique. But if you stick them all in a blender
>to see what comes out... well, the resulting mush won't be a contra dance,
>though it might be fun. Especially if you toss in a couple of frogs.
Interestingly, I have done exactly this (minus the frogs). Last year
in my free time I wrote a computer program that composes contra dances
randomly. Many of the dances that it generates are decent dances that
you probably wouldn't think twice about if they were called at your
Friday night dance.
As far as I know, no one has yet constructed a program capable of
routinely generating decent poems, and I believe that doing so would
require several orders of magnitude more effort than I put in.
My plan is to clean up the code and make it available to anyone
interested. (It's written in Java, for anyone who cares). Possibly
I'll put it on a web site.
CareySchug
Damouth) writes:
>I'm afraid the storyline doesn't come through most of the time, at
>least to me.
Some of Scottish country dances have an identifiable "story line" and I think a
few other international folk dances do too.
CareySchug
Damouth) writes:
>Clearly the connection between music and movement is stronger
>in contra then MWSD (to select two forms I'm familiar with).
It's even stronger in IFD (International folk dance) where every step, every
movement is cued by the music which must be learned. People sometimes
can't dance toa different recording of the same tune because it sounds a
little differentt.
>... In MWSD it seems people don't listen to beats. When
>I danced it wasn't even possible to connect steps to beats or measures
>or phrases because the beats were too fast and the measures and
>phrases had nothing to do with the figures.
That depends upon the caller and the group of dancers. And of course the
singing calls are done to musical phrases because they are fixed choreographies
like most TAC (contra). And some calls are done to the musical phrase and to
the beat more often, like "grand square" which is 16 measures, often some
dancers will finish early, but almost always the caller will start on phrase
and
wait for the full 16 measures before beginning the next call. When many calls
are a half a measure, it's hard to keep the dancing on the measure, and a one
measure call might get split across two measures of music. Even if it
doesn't seem like it, I think there is more correlation than one is conciously
aware of, since nearly all the squares on the floor manage to keep in sync
with each other, which would not happen without the music. At least this is
all true at dances I frequent, maybe elsewhere in the country it is different.
Dan Pearl
Dance or ...) is not actually a story.
Unlike a dance like the Canadian/Scottish "St. John River" which has figures
in it to literally tell a story, the "story line" that people are referring
to is not so obvious.
It is hard to actually define what a story line is, but I'll take a crack
at it, with this flawed description:
It is the property of a dance sequence that, when present, makes the
dance sequence easier to remember for the dancers because of factors
including, but not limited to the following:
* Symmetry or repetition of movements
* Flow
* Cohesiveness of the sequence
* Integration with prior experience and expectations
Consider this analogy. Look at the following list of words for 15 seconds, and
try to remember the list. Ready? GO!
new
to
rising
life
the
awareness
sun
with
brought
my
it
OK? How did you do? That is the problem when dancing a dance with a
poor story line. Let's try the word list again, with the words in a
different order. Ready? GO!
the
rising
sun
brought
with
it
new
awareness
to
my
life
How did you do that time?
Certain tunes follow melodic tendencies. I think of dances with good
story lines as following kinesthetic tendencies.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Pearl ** Stratus Computer, Inc.
I represent the views of my employer. [*WHAP!*] NO HE DOESN'T
Lee Thompson-Herbert
[...]areySchug <carey...@aol.com> wrote:
>and
>wait for the full 16 measures before beginning the next call. When many calls
>are a half a measure, it's hard to keep the dancing on the measure, and a one
>measure call might get split across two measures of music. Even if it
You know, I think part of the problem is terminology. A "measure" is
usually a section of music (ie, 8 bars or 12 bars). A bar is one subdivision
of a measure (ie 4 beats in 4/4 time, 6 beats in 6/8 time). Half a bar
*is* a precise number of beats! It is possible to count out, "2 beats
for this, two beats for the next." It seems bloody obvious to me, but
I'm a musician. And I started out doing percussive dance besides. If
you can't subdivide bars, and beats even, you can't do percussive dance.
If your dancers can't count out "1 2 3 4" to a reel, they need to LEARN.
And if people are ending a grand square (a 16 bar figure) early, then there's
a timing problem. Why else would you actually give lessons on figures
if you don't discuss timing as well as the track each dancer takes?
I honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND the thinking here.
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert KD6WUR l...@retro.com
Head Muso, White Rats Morris
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart"
Ralph Barthine
> You know, I think part of the problem is terminology. A "measure" is
> usually a section of music (ie, 8 bars or 12 bars).
I'd be interested in finding out who else uses the term "measure" in this
manner. I've played music for a number of years- with musicians of
various stripes- and never heard "measure" used to mean "a chunk of music"
as you define it.
There are other terms to describe a section of music, such as "section"
;), "part" (as in the "A" & "B" parts of a New Hampshire fiddle tune, or
the "coarse" and "fine" parts of an Arkansas fiddle tune), verse, chorus,
head, bridge, phrase, etc. By your definition, would a 12-bar blues be
one 12-bar "measure", or three 4-bar measures?
I'm not saying you're "wrong"- this could be a case where people of
different cultures use the same word to mean different things (folk dance
content: refer to previous discussion regarding the term "do-si-do", AKA
"do-sa-do").
> A bar is one subdivision of a measure (ie 4 beats in 4/4 time, 6 beats
> in 6/8 time).
What you call a "bar", a music theory or instruction book based on Western
music nomenclature would call a "measure"; that assertion can be easily
verified. I have, however, absolutely no documentation whatsoever for the
following (I've just "always known" it): The word "bar" is a once-hip
*slang term* for a measure- which entered the mainstream musical lexicon
when the Boogie-Woogie classic "Beat Me Daddy, Eight to the Bar" became an
international hit.
-rb
CareySchug
writes:
>You know, I think part of the problem is terminology. A "measure" is
>usually a section of music (ie, 8 bars or 12 bars). A bar is one subdivision
>of a measure (ie 4 beats in 4/4 time, 6 beats in 6/8 time). Half a bar
>*is* a precise number of beats! It is possible to count out, "2 beats
>for this, two beats for the next." It seems bloody obvious to me, but
>I'm a musician. And I started out doing percussive dance besides. If
>you can't subdivide bars, and beats even, you can't do percussive dance.
>If your dancers can't count out "1 2 3 4" to a reel, they need to LEARN.
>And if people are ending a grand square (a 16 bar figure) early, then there's
>a timing problem. Why else would you actually give lessons on figures
>if you don't discuss timing as well as the track each dancer takes?
>
>I honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND the thinking here.
Well, definition 16 in my Random house college dictionary says a measure is the
interval between two bar lines in music. That is, 4 beats in 4/4 time. I'll
stand by my statement that *SOME* calls are half a measure. So, it would be
next to impossible to always end a call on a measure (you would always have to
call two half measure calls together, otherwise the full measure or longer call
after tha half measure call will span two musical measures).
I was assuming that 16 beats was a phrase, for half of the grand square call.
A good caller will wait if there are less than good dancers finish the grand
square early. Usually at least one square on the floor will do it correctly,
so it is easy for the caller to wait till they are done. Not all callers are
"good" just as not all dancers are "good". Just as not all contra dancers are
"good" and I am sure there are non "good" contra dance callers.
A good square dancer will always dance on the beat. Most callers will call on
the beat, or half measure. Some calls may need extra time based upon what came
before (i.e. the relative distances people are from each other), so this may
make it seem unstructured or to be off the beat, because there are maybe two
extra beats betwee two calls that technically if one wrote things down
shouldn't have been there. Go to a ballroom dance and you will see SOME
couples not dancing on the correct beat. Does that mean that ballroom dancing
is not musical and just doing figures ignoring the music? Maybe you have seen
a bad caller with bad dancers somewhere that nobody is on the beat, but I don't
remember specifically (I do remember thinking some dances were VERY bad, but do
not remember exactly why).
What I do not understand is why the contra dancers her almost universally feel
that that it is their calling in life to convince the world that what they do
is the One True Dance form, and what others do, specifically MWSD dancers, do
cannot by any stretch of the word be called dancing. The proponants of the
other dance forms promote their own favorites, without having to put down those
who make different choices.
Trainman
reversed.
Don
CareySchug <carey...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010614182753...@nso-cm.aol.com...
> In article <9g7132$2f1$1...@gw.retro.com>, l...@gw.retro.com (Lee
Thompson-Herbert)
> writes:
>
> >You know, I think part of the problem is terminology. A "measure" is
> >usually a section of music (ie, 8 bars or 12 bars). A bar is one
subdivision
> >of a measure (ie 4 beats in 4/4 time, 6 beats in 6/8 time). Half a bar
> >*is* a precise number of beats! It is possible to count out, "2 beats
> >for this, two beats for the next." It seems bloody obvious to me, but
> >I'm a musician. And I started out doing percussive dance besides. If
> >you can't subdivide bars, and beats even, you can't do percussive dance.
> >If your dancers can't count out "1 2 3 4" to a reel, they need to LEARN.
> >And if people are ending a grand square (a 16 bar figure) early, then
there's
> >a timing problem. Why else would you actually give lessons on figures
> >if you don't discuss timing as well as the track each dancer takes?
> >
> >I honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND the thinking here.
(text deleted)
Garry Wiegand
>Not to be picky, but Lee has "measure" and "bar" definitions exactly
>reversed.
-certainly- refer to the same number of beats. See www.m-w.com :
BAR ...
6 a : a vertical line across the musical staff before the initial
measure accent
b : MEASURE
But the way the tunes are written down is kind of irrelevant anyhow. You
could choose to write down a reel in 64/4 time, with two measures for the
whole tune. And it would (of course) not matter at all to the way it's
played.
Lee Thompson-Herbert writes:
>If your dancers can't count out "1 2 3 4" to a reel, they need to LEARN.
If they do that around here, they'll be awfully confused. In the dance styles
that I have done which use reels -- i.e., contradancing and square dancing
-- more people hereabouts seem to count and feel reels in two, rather than in
four.
chronologically yours,
Garry
PS - Here's one element of the confusion: For reasons that I've never
understood, most transcriptions have reels written in 4/4 time. But with two
beats per measure, as commonly played and danced, the time signature of a
standard double reel should actually be marked 2/2.
(Some older transcriptions use 2/4 time, and twice the number of flags on the
notes. That works too.)
Les Francey
feel
> that that it is their calling in life to convince the world that what they
do
> is the One True Dance form, and what others do, specifically MWSD dancers,
do
> cannot by any stretch of the word be called dancing. The proponants of
the
> other dance forms promote their own favorites, without having to put down
those
> who make different choices.
Whoah. Hold on here. I have been following this thread for some time
here but I don't see where any contra dancer has said that contra dance is
the one true dance form. Putting down MWSD? Yes I have heard lots of that
but I have not heard a contra dancer say that contra dancing is the One True
Dand form. What I have heard are people criticizing MWSD for percieved
detractions such as: dress, regimentation - ie lessons and levels, not
dancing striclty to the beat of the music, dancing to recorded music rather
than live music. I have heard contra dancers say that you are missing the
real true joy of dancing in their opinion if you are not dancing to live
music.
And you have done quite well in defending MWSD against these
criticisms.
However, nowhere have I heard a contra dancer or any other dancer here
say that the dance they prefer is the one true dance form. I can understand
how you might feel a little defensive or put upon in this group that has
seen its share of MWSD bashing for years but I don't think your comment
accurately reflects the general attitude of the contra dancers in this
discussion.
Les Francey
CareySchug
<lfra...@sympatco.ca> writes:
> However, nowhere have I heard a contra dancer or any other dancer here
>say that the dance they prefer is the one true dance form. I can understand
>how you might feel a little defensive or put upon in this group that has
>seen its share of MWSD bashing for years but I don't think your comment
>accurately reflects the general attitude of the contra dancers in this
>discussion.
The point still is:
--The IFD people have not put down anybody
--The Irish set dancers did not speak negatively of anybody
--The Country dancers did not speak negarively of anybody
--The MWSD people have only put down contras while responding to MWSD bashing
--The contra people did not put down IFD for using records except in the thread
where I pointed out they were bashing MWSD for using records but not IFD
It's not just in this thread. There have been numerous contra people who said:
--MWSD is not dancing, its problem solving.
So is walking to some people.
--If its not done to live music its not dancing (in reference to MWSD).
This would equally apply to all but Irish set dancing, as done in this
country.
--MWSD dancers don't dance on the beat.
That is true of some contra dancers too.
--MWSD figures don't align on the measures therefore is wrong.
As somebody said, think of it as 64/4 measures, then they would. Anywhy,
why?
--MWSD is made up, not "authentic", as in non-historical.
Much contra currently done is made up, most IFD is made up or at least
arranged.
--While doing MWSD you can't enjoy the music
That may be true for that person, but isn't necessarily true for every one
(not me)
--They have said that MWSD should not be called "square dancing" only they
should be allowed to use that name. Yes, several people said that shortly
after I joined this list. If that is not claiming to be "the one true dance
form", I don't know what is.
--etc, etc.
Les Francey
a very good summation of all the criticisms heaped upon MWDS then
says:
> If that is not claiming to be "the one true dance
> form", I don't know what is.
The following would be a claim that contra dancing is the one true
dance form:
" Contra dancing is the one true dance form. " or " There is only one
true dance form and that is contra dancing." or " There is no other
dance form that is the true dance form except contra dancing."
I have not heard anyone say that. I have only heard all the criticisms
which you listed in detail. ( And I agree that all those criticism have
been applied to MWSD in this thread and other threads in this newsgroup
throughout the years ) A criticism of one form of dance is not a claim that
another form of dance is the one true form of dance. It's not like religion
you know. ( Ooops maybe I shouldn't go there. )
Les Francey
Anthony Argyriou
>PS - Here's one element of the confusion: For reasons that I've never
>understood, most transcriptions have reels written in 4/4 time. But with two
>beats per measure, as commonly played and danced, the time signature of a
>standard double reel should actually be marked 2/2.
Irish dancers count reels as 123[ ], 123[ ] - counting 1, 2, and 3 of the
four quarter notes in a 4/4 tune. The reel traveling and setting steps have
steps on 1, 2, and 3, but not generally on 4. "Sevens", the sideways step,
takes two bars, and has a step on all four of the first bar, and 1, 2, and
3 of the second bar.
In 4/4 dances, an Irish dancer counting the music before the beginning of a
new phrase (at the end of an "A for nought", will typically count "7, 2, 3
8, 2, 3" where a swing dancer or an English Country Dancer (in my
experience) will count "5 6 7 8". I can't convert in my head on the
fly, so 5, 6, 7, 8 confuses the heck out of me.
From what I can tell, the "beats" being counted two to a measure are
actually the two accents per measure, typically on 1 and 3.
Anthony Argyriou
Dance is the perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire. - GBS
Dave Goldman
carey...@aol.com (CareySchug) wrote:
>...
> It's not just in this thread. There have been numerous contra people who
>said:
>...
Carey, there are a LOT of contradancers who read this newsgroup. Hundreds,
I would guess.
Of these, perhaps a few dozen individuals post a message at least once a month.
Of these, perhaps a couple dozen individuals post a message at least once
a week.
Of these, perhaps half a dozen tend to write things that either
purposefully are, or accidentally seem, antagonistic toward Modern Western
Square Dancing.
If you want to complain about these individuals' misguided statements,
feel free to continue to do so. That is certainly well within the
tradition of Usenet -- threads deteriorating into "You said this..."/"I
did not!"/"Oh yeah? Well, here's your quote..."/"Well, you are an inferior
being."/"No, it is you who are inferior...." (In the end, though, the
hundreds of readers _not_ participating in such threads lose respect for
the participants from both sides.)
But please don't confuse the opinions of half a dozen frequent posters for
the consensus opinion of all contradancers. And don't feel that you have
to refute every statement from the former group in order to effect the
opinions of the latter group.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
CareySchug <carey...@aol.com> wrote:
[...]
>What I do not understand is why the contra dancers her almost universally feel
>that that it is their calling in life to convince the world that what they do
>is the One True Dance form, and what others do, specifically MWSD dancers, do
>cannot by any stretch of the word be called dancing. The proponants of the
>other dance forms promote their own favorites, without having to put down those
>who make different choices.
Except I'm not a contra dancer, and NEVER HAVE BEEN ONE.
I teach irish ceili dance strictly as a social dance, and I've done
traditional squares, quebecois sets, nova scotian sets, scottish country
dance, highland dance, irish stepdance, english stepdance, morris of several
different stripes, some irish sets, and texas swing and twostep. The last
two simply because my parents and most of my relatives already knew how.
I've also been playing english, irish and scottish music on and off for half
my life. I'm about as uninterested in contra dance, as I am in english
country dance. I've done them some, but it's not for me. Don't assume
that all the other folks in this thread are _also_ contra dancers, because
they may not be.
Saying that the music might "distract" the dancers from being on time sounds
like a load of hooey to me. If the simple idea of walking in time to the
music is too hard, there's something wrong with the teaching process. There
will always be individuals who are "rhythmically challenged," but they if
they're the majority of your dancers, you might reconsider the methods you're
using to transmit the dances to new dancers.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Trainman <dom.de...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Not to be picky, but Lee has "measure" and "bar" definitions exactly
>reversed.
No, measure and bar are the _same_ thing in some local dialects. But my
point was that a "measure" or "bar" is a set number of beats. So half
a "measure" is countable. If the dancers can't hear 1-2-3-4 in a 4/4
time piece, there's a problem. Or, well, it's a problem if that's enough
of the dancers that you're afraid tiny variations or different tunes will
"distract" the dancers so much they won't be able to follow the caller's
instructions.
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Anthony Argyriou <ant...@alphageo.com> wrote:
[...]
>
>From what I can tell, the "beats" being counted two to a measure are
>actually the two accents per measure, typically on 1 and 3.
Or 2 and 4 in many american pieces. Which makes life so much more interesting
when the tunes are interleaved. Or when you get a rhythm player who really
wants to play the backbeat (2 4) and the band is playing a tune that hits
the downbeat (1 3). And then there are syncopations. I will admit that
some american fiddle tunes are so bizarre that the only way I can follow
them is to hope they keep more or less the same beat going. But those types
of tunes aren't generally used for _dancing_. They're the result of some
fiddler having lived out in the woods for a couple years while drinking
corn liquor. ;}
Trainman
Lee Thompson-Herbert <l...@gw.retro.com> wrote in message
news:9gfcnf$m2j$1...@gw.retro.com...
> In article <l9elitk22t65qff66...@4ax.com>,
> Anthony Argyriou <ant...@alphageo.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >
> >From what I can tell, the "beats" being counted two to a measure are
> >actually the two accents per measure, typically on 1 and 3.
>
> Or 2 and 4 in many american pieces. Which makes life so much more
interesting
> when the tunes are interleaved. Or when you get a rhythm player who
really
> wants to play the backbeat (2 4) and the band is playing a tune that hits
> the downbeat (1 3). And then there are syncopations. I will admit that
> some american fiddle tunes are so bizarre that the only way I can follow
> them is to hope they keep more or less the same beat going. But those
types
> of tunes aren't generally used for _dancing_. They're the result of some
> fiddler having lived out in the woods for a couple years while drinking
> corn liquor. ;}
>
That or trying to dance to Dave Brubeck :-)
Don
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
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creator host: MRP...@yahoogroups.com
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/MRPics
CareySchug
da...@rsd-erase-this-bit.com (Dave Goldman) writes:
>If you want to complain about these individuals' misguided statements,
>feel free to continue to do so.
It gets old after a while. I was a foster parent, and even 5 year old kids are
capable of growth and learning tolerance.
>That is certainly well within the
>tradition of Usenet -- threads deteriorating into "You said this..."/"I
>did not!"/"Oh yeah? Well, here's your quote..."/"Well, you are an inferior
>being."/"No, it is you who are inferior...." (In the end, though, the
>hundreds of readers _not_ participating in such threads lose respect for
>the participants from both sides.)
The "silent majority" claim, huh? That claim of innocence was discredited in
Germany in the 1940's. If you say nothing, you are agreeing. If an MWSD
dancer started bashing Ceili, I would step in, even if I had been silent
before. If a forum became primarily bashing, as this group is close to doing,
and I had no hope of turning it around, I would drop out.
CareySchug
writes:
>Except I'm not a contra dancer, and NEVER HAVE BEEN ONE
And I was not including you in the MWSD bashers. The comments you made were in
response to others, and not the prejudiced and fact-free snide-isms that have
come from a number of contra supporters.
CareySchug
<lfra...@sympatco.ca> writes:
>A criticism of one form of dance is not a claim that
>another form of dance is the one true form of dance.
Maybe "one true" is an exaggeration, especially since they don't put down other
dance forms as much, but several have tried to disqualify MWSD from being a
dance form counts as far as MWSD is concerned. Saying if it isn't done to live
music it isn't dancing disqualifies almost every other dance form discussed on
this list. Even ballroom/swing/latin is done to live bands only some of the
time (live music will cost $10-20 per person per evening, which means only the
affluent can afford it). Saying one or two pieces of live musicians are better
than recordings of larger bands is snobbery and prejudice.
Cynthia M. Van Ness
> Saying one or two pieces of live musicians are better
> than recordings of larger bands is snobbery and prejudice.
Oh, I dunno. People make value judgements every day, all day long,
about how they will spend their time, energy, and funds. They do so
based on what they value most. We would be oppressed indeed if we were
prevented from making and acting on such judgements.
It's an essential part of living in a diverse society. I think chocolate
ice cream is better than vanilla, I prefer walking or biking to driving, I
think old buildings are superior to new, and I think live music is better
than recorded. Other people detest chocolate, don't own a bike, long for
a new house in the suburbs, etc.
Earlier in the conversation, I used an analogy to explain my reasons for
making this value judgement, and others have explained their reasons for
making their judgements. I flamed no one, I merely expressed why I feel
the way I do.
That's about as far as you can go in these disagreements. Those with
differing views can explain the values that lie behind their choices,
assuming they are even aware of such values.
Those explanations may or may not sway a single other person. But to
dismiss all who disagree with you as "prejudiced" or "snobs" sounds to me
like the sink calling the bathtub white.
Phil and Carol Good-Elliott
bigots... Now I just wonder how my judgementalism closes opportunities I
didn't know existed. One of my favorite sayings about judgmentalism goes
something like this:
"Be very careful when you're pointing your finger at someone, because the
other three are pointing right back at you."
Thanks for "pointing" this out, Cynthia.
-Phil
in article GF1Go...@freenet.buffalo.edu, Cynthia M. Van Ness at
af...@bfn.org wrote on 6/16/01 3:55 pm:
CareySchug
<af...@bfn.org> writes:
>> Saying one or two pieces of live musicians are better
>> than recordings of larger bands is snobbery and prejudice.
>
>Oh, I dunno. People make value judgements every day, all day long,
>about how they will spend their time, energy, and funds. They do so
>based on what they value most. We would be oppressed indeed if we were
>prevented from making and acting on such judgements.
If somebody said "I prefer one or two muscians to recordings" that would be
fine, as they are certainly entitled to make such judgements for themselfes..
But some vocal contra afficianados go beyond that and say that MWSD and others
should make that choice too. Nobody has EVER suggested that contra should be
danced to records. We get heaped with all kinds of insults because we have
other priorities than having a live band.
Gloria Krusemeyer
sounds
> like a load of hooey to me. If the simple idea of walking in time to the
> music is too hard, there's something wrong with the teaching process.
Excuse me, but I'm tired of having my statement taken out of context.
Very good music can make it difficult to solve puzzles on the fly. When the
band starts passing ornaments around, or making musical jokes, or any of the
other wonderful things that live musicians can do when they're cooking,
contra dancers and ECD people often miss moves. I've seen it, I've done it.
Just imagine what it would do to MWSD hash!
Good music is what gets contra dancers going "in the grove". Would you want
to do the same 30-second long figure for 8 minutes to repetitive, dull
music?
On the other hand, for MWSD hash the figures are [hopefully] always changing
and unexpected. So the music should be invigorating enough to keep people
dancing [yes, it IS dancing], but not so unpredictable as to startle people
or make the music the thing in the foreground of their mind.
=====
Back in the early days of MWSD, contras and squares coexisted. It would be
nice if that could be achieved again. If not at the same dance, at least on
the same discussion group.
Gloria Krusemeyer
Northfield, MN
Dave Goldman
> The "silent majority" claim, huh? That claim of innocence was discredited in
> Germany in the 1940's.
Hey, I was just trying to be friendly, telling you that you shouldn't
feel that everyone here hates you and your chosen dance form. But if
you don't want to hear that, well fine.
And now you apparently wish to accelerate this thread's deterioration
to one step from calling your detractors Nazis. I congratulate you on
your mastery of Usenet tradition.
> If you say nothing, you are agreeing.
Ah. Okay, then...
- Since you have not disagreed with my assertion that there are
hundreds of contradancers reading this newsgroup, you must agree with
that assertion.
- Since none of these hundreds has disagreed with the messages you
characterize as MWSD "bashing", they each must agree with such
bashing.
- Since none of your posts here has altered the MWSD-hostile opinion
of these hundreds of contradancers, apparently you have no hope of
turning things around.
> If a forum became primarily bashing, as this group is close to doing,
> and I had no hope of turning it around, I would drop out.
Okay. Goodbye.
David Smukler
Gloria Krusemeyer wrote:
> Back in the early days of MWSD, contras and squares coexisted. It would be
> nice if that could be achieved again. If not at the same dance, at least on
> the same discussion group.
>
> Gloria Krusemeyer
> Northfield, MN
Contras and squares certainly do coexist today! They do at all the dances I
call, and many other fine dances that I attend.
I'd like to weigh in on the live music thing (although it's a little scary to
do so, given how much heat this discussion seems to have generated). I love
live music, with all of its foibles. I think we contra dancers are incredibly
lucky that so many musicians are willing to provide so much for so little pay
at our dances. I'm a musician myself. I'm not a great musician (I don't know if
you need to thank me or curse me...), but I've gotten to the point where I can
play "servicable" music for dancing on the fiddle, and I continue to gradually
improve over time. I know that there are plenty of recordings that can do what
I'm doing better than I do it, but I still like what is created in a room when
the music is home-cooked.
The "distraction" discussion seems a distraction from the real issues to me.
Live music certainly offers distractions sometimes, but so do many things, and
recorded music can created distracting problems of its own.
All this being said, I think people should dance and have fun doing that. I'm
delighted humans are dancing, and whatever local solution they arrive at to
provide music ought to be fine with all of us. Both live and recorded music
vary widely in their quality, but I think we should thankfully use whatever we
have. How lovely that we're dancing and not doing any of a myriad of other less
rewarding activities.
BTW, as a caller, my personal solution to the fact that live musicians can't do
all things in all styles is to try and tailor my programming to whatever band
I'm dealt. I haven't ever wanted to work with recordings, but I imagine I'd
have to do much the same thing if I did. I'm also lucky enough to play the
guitar, and that often allows me to add some of the singing squares that I
love, even when the band doesn't know the repertoire.
David Smukler
Gary Shapiro
<carey...@aol.com> wrote:
>The "silent majority" claim, huh? That claim of innocence was discredited in
>Germany in the 1940's. If you say nothing, you are agreeing.
I'm not sure what I've been agreeing *with* by saying nothing.
In any case, for the record, my latest opinion:
We live in a culture that is bound to make all of us a little nuts,
with egos and all the manifestations of ego. We have all long since
lost the detachment that we were born with.
We make judgements, go to war, do and say all kinds of things we wish
we wouldn't. In our better moments we can forgive ourselves and each
other of our transgressions.
There is no right kind of dancing, no right kind of music, no right
kind of relationship between music and dance. None of us is better than
the next person, none of our dance forms is better than the next.
Live and let live. Dance and let dance.
--
The "From:" email address in the header will continue to work for at least 10
more days.
CareySchug
(Dave Goldman) writes:
>Okay. Goodbye.
I will assume the email address listed is phoney so I will reply here instead
of privately.
There is absolutely no logic in your statement. Pity. No wonder you have to
put down MWSD, you can't understand it.
Dave Goldman
carey...@aol.com (CareySchug) wrote:
> No wonder you have to put down MWSD...
Huh???!!!
When? Where? How?
It's news to me that I have a problem with MWSD!
Victoria Burwell
<snip, snip, snip, snip, snip>
> But please don't confuse the opinions of half a dozen frequent posters for
> the consensus opinion of all contradancers. And don't feel that you have
> to refute every statement from the former group in order to effect the
> opinions of the latter group.
>
> - Dave Goldman
> Portland, OR
Thank you, Dave; my sentiments, too.
And another thing: as my dear departed mother (and many others) always told
me, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names shall never hurt me."
There are some battles worth fighing.... and then there's this one.
Vicky in hot and sticky Maine