Floor damage by dance shoes - myth or reality?
Jon Leech
I'd like to get some thoughts on how floors are damaged by various types
of shoes.
The local contra dancers have been kicked out of several venues because
of (purported) damage to the wooden floors. As a result, they've cracked
down really hard. The latest policy is
"Effective immediately it will be becessary to carry in dance shoes
that are smooth soled and WITHOUT heels or with heels that are
structured into the sole of the shoe. This acceptable group of shoes
for dancing includes athletic shoes (such as running, tennis or
bowling shoes) and sandals. Anyone not bringing such shoes will be
asked to dance in socks or barefoot. Capezio ballroom dance shoes
with heels are NOT acceptable."
I left the dance the first time I was told I'd have to dance in my
socks, and haven't returned in several months. Contra dancing is not an
important enough form of dance to me that I really miss it. However, I would
like the option of going occasionally, and the "acceptable" footwear is not
acceptable to me for various reasons. So I'd like to understand how damage
to floors really takes place, what various types and parts of shoes do or do
not have to do with it, how other people have dealt with similar problems,
and whether there is evidence to support the policy cited above.
It seems unlikely on the surface that ballroom shoes, which are after
all *designed* for dancing, are causing any noticeable fraction of damage.
I've never heard of any such problems with any of our ballroom or swing
dance groups, and it does not strike me as coincidence that most of the
ballroom and many of the swing dancers wear dance shoes. With heels. But I'm
just speculating.
Jon
__@/
Sandra Lee Wollin
I don't blame any place for requiring a certain standard to the dancers
shoes to protect their floor. They are very expensive to purchase,
install and maintain.
It is not a myth. Heels dragging on the floor will mar the surface of a
floor and the heel tips as they wear down have a metal spike in the
center that will scratch the floor and if worn down enough will make
permanent marks in the wood.
At one of the studios that I rent floor time at requires that if the heel
is worn a chrome sole heel cover be put over the heel tip. It looks like
a wide X with the center (the size of the heel tip) being solid.
It works well, does not cause any interference with the dancing and is
very inexpensive.
Sandra
--
*************************************************************************
MOVEMENT AND POSTURAL DYNAMICS FOR DANCERS AND ATHLETES
Including: Alexander Technique, Applied Physics, Biomechanics,
Ideokinesis, Kinesiology, and more.
Ballroom, Latin, Theatre Arts --- Artistic Skating -- Equestrians
Contact: SANDRA LEE WOLLIN - EMERSON, NEW JERSEY 07630 U.S.A
Ph: 01-201-262-1274 E-Mail: SLWO...@worldnet.att.net
*************************************************************************
Jon Leech
In article <58nk2i$9...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Sandra Lee Wollin <SLWO...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It is not a myth. Heels dragging on the floor will mar the surface of a
>floor and the heel tips as they wear down have a metal spike in the
>center that will scratch the floor and if worn down enough will make
>permanent marks in the wood.
Is this referring to both men's and women's heels?
Jon
__@/
Kris Eberlein
In article <58nbdo$2...@watt.cs.unc.edu> le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) writes:
>From: le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
>Subject: Floor damage by dance shoes - myth or reality?
>Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:08:56 -0500
> I'd like to get some thoughts on how floors are damaged by various types
>of shoes.
> The local contra dancers have been kicked out of several venues because
>of (purported) damage to the wooden floors. As a result, they've cracked
>down really hard. The latest policy is
> "Effective immediately it will be becessary to carry in dance shoes
> that are smooth soled and WITHOUT heels or with heels that are
> structured into the sole of the shoe. This acceptable group of shoes
> for dancing includes athletic shoes (such as running, tennis or
> bowling shoes) and sandals. Anyone not bringing such shoes will be
> asked to dance in socks or barefoot. Capezio ballroom dance shoes
> with heels are NOT acceptable."
> I left the dance the first time I was told I'd have to dance in my
>socks, and haven't returned in several months. Contra dancing is not an
>important enough form of dance to me that I really miss it. However, I would
>like the option of going occasionally, and the "acceptable" footwear is not
>acceptable to me for various reasons. So I'd like to understand how damage
>to floors really takes place, what various types and parts of shoes do or do
>not have to do with it, how other people have dealt with similar problems,
>and whether there is evidence to support the policy cited above.
As another dancer from the Triangle, North Carolina area, let me add another
question to Jon's query . . .
Do dance shoes with (clean) chrome leather-covered soles AND heels cause any
more damage to floors than do athletic shoes? The dance organizers were
objecting not only to Capezio character shoes but ALSO BALLROOM SHOES WITH
CHROME LEATHER SOLES.
For example, the contra dance organizers objected to my favorite spectators,
which have chrome leather on the soles and the low (maybe half-inch) heel). I
do keep them brushed clean and wear them only on dance floors.
I wasn't sure whether to argue or not. Someone earnestly explained to me that
the chrome leather caught dirt and ground it into the floor. Opinions?
Like Jon, I haven't been back to a contradance since then. Granted, swing
dancing is my first love, but . . .
Kris
Sandra Lee Wollin
eber...@mc.duke.edu (Kris Eberlein) wrote:
>In article <58nbdo$2...@watt.cs.unc.edu> le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) writes:
>>From: le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
>>Subject: Floor damage by dance shoes - myth or reality?
>>Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:08:56 -0500
>
>> I'd like to get some thoughts on how floors are damaged by various types
>>of shoes.
<snip>
>
>As another dancer from the Triangle, North Carolina area, let me add another
>question to Jon's query . . .
>
>Do dance shoes with (clean) chrome leather-covered soles AND heels cause any
>more damage to floors than do athletic shoes? The dance organizers were
>objecting not only to Capezio character shoes but ALSO BALLROOM SHOES WITH
>CHROME LEATHER SOLES.
>
>For example, the contra dance organizers objected to my favorite spectators,
>which have chrome leather on the soles and the low (maybe half-inch) heel). I
>do keep them brushed clean and wear them only on dance floors.
>
>I wasn't sure whether to argue or not. Someone earnestly explained to me that
>the chrome leather caught dirt and ground it into the floor. Opinions?
>
>Like Jon, I haven't been back to a contradance since then. Granted, swing
>dancing is my first love, but . . .
>
>Kris
>
Chrome soles are the softest on wood floors as far as I know. It is the
heels that cause a problem. It not only scrapes the finish, but if a
dancer is back weighted, which they should not be doing, they will drag
their heels, especially in the Foxtrot and wear them almost at once. The
steel pin that attaches the tip to the heel structure comes through the
composition material and create gouges in the wood.
On the Gentleman's shoe the chrome wears on the heel from the shoebrush
and dancing on it. it must be checked regularly and a replacement put on
as needed.
The X-shaped chrome pieces for the Ladies heel tips last as long, or
longer than the sole of the shoe and never really needs to be brushed. I
use white packing tape with the nylon threading running through it to
attach them so that it blends right into the white satin of the shoe and
the white of the chrome. No one even notices they are there. If the
tape is pulled very tightly the tip cover is very secure and will not
shift under the most extreame work (as I dance pro level Modern and
Latin-American) and I use them on all of my coaching and teaching shoes
and never notice any difference in my dancing also.
Sandra
Barbara Ruth
In article <58q5m4$5...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Sandra Lee
Wollin <SLWO...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> eber...@mc.duke.edu (Kris Eberlein) wrote:
> >In article <58nbdo$2...@watt.cs.unc.edu> le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) writes:
> >>From: le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
> >I wasn't sure whether to argue or not. Someone earnestly explained to
me that
> >the chrome leather caught dirt and ground it into the floor. Opinions?
> >
Chrome soles are the softest on wood floors as far as I know. It is the
What is chrome leather?
mark anthony balzer
Barbara Ruth <barbar...@yale.edu> wrote:
>Sandra Lee Wollin <SLWO...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> eber...@mc.duke.edu (Kris Eberlein) wrote:
>> >le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) writes:
>
>> >>From: le...@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
>> > Someone earnestly explained to me that
>> >the chrome leather caught dirt and ground it into the floor. Opinions?
>>
>> Chrome soles are the softest on wood floors as far as I know. It is the
>
>What is chrome leather?
Animal hides tanned using chromium compounds.
Chrome tanned leather is much softer than vegetable tanned leather
(and the process takes less time) so it it widely used.
Dance shoe uppers are chrome tanned, while dance shoe soles are
chrome tanned and sueded.
Mark
Steven J Gold
The amount of damage to a dance floor depends not only on what shoes the
dancers wear, but also on the construction of the dance floor.
The dance floor at Henry Ford's Lovett Hall ballroom (in Dearborn, MI) is
made of Teak -- the hardest of the hardwoods -- and has withstood 60
years(!) of dancing and social events (in many of which women wore
hi-heeled "spike" shoes) with no visible damage.
Of course, very few people besides Henry Ford could afford to floor a large
contra-dance hall with Teak. Most would settle on a cheaper hardwood like
Maple or Oak :-)
B. Parkes
Jon Leech <le...@cs.unc.edu> writes:
> I'd like to get some thoughts on how floors are damaged by various types
>of shoes.
It is the grit that gets caught in a shoe and is rubbed along the floor
that causes the damage. Theoretically, shoes never worn outside
shouldn't have this problem, but that assumes that no one else has
tracked in any dirt. Or that you haven't picked up any in another hall.
The real problem is that contra dancers don't pick up their feet when
they dance. Marianne Herman had a sign on her wall at Maine Camp
that said "Shushing should be shushed." What this meant is that if you
were not picking up your feet, you could hear it in the shush, shush,
shush that your feet make. Listen at your local dance some time.
Marianne was teaching international folk dance, and I am _not_
advocating changing our dance style. This is just giving an opinion
about why contra dance seems to be so much rougher on dance floors
than other dance forms. It is this dragging of the surface of the sole
across the surface of the floor, with grit in between, that causes the
problem.
In this scenario ANY type of shoe will cause trouble. Bowling allies
have the same kind of problem because people slide. The answer
there has been to not allow anyone on the alley without clean
footwear. EVER! I can't imagine any hall really doing this. (No non-
dance events where people wear everyday, outdoor shoes???)
Boy, I sure do sympathize with those of you being asked to dance in
socks. My podiatrist has told me to NEVER go without shoes (even
around the house) to treat Plantar Faciitis. He has also said he wants
me in a small heel, to keep the weight forward, off my heel. I would
be unable to dance in your town. Unless I could sue the dance for my
injury ;-) Now, there's an idea, how to get my foot care paid for since
my insurance company has been unhelpful.
By the way, NEFFA is going to have to implement a shoe policy this
year. They are planning on going the "clean" route. If anyone else has
input on this topic please post! NEFFA is still looking for suggestions.
Beth
Alan Gedance
On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, B. Parkes wrote:
> Jon Leech <le...@cs.unc.edu> writes:
>
> > I'd like to get some thoughts on how floors are damaged by various types
> >of shoes.
>
> Just my opinion here:
>
> It is the grit that gets caught in a shoe and is rubbed along the floor
> that causes the damage. Theoretically, shoes never worn outside
> shouldn't have this problem, but that assumes that no one else has
> tracked in any dirt. Or that you haven't picked up any in another hall.
I think that you're right. But there's a vast difference in the
sensitivity of floor finishes to that sort of damage, as has been noted
by Kiran and Rick in recent posts. Scratches just don't show up on the
Glen Echo floor, even though the dancers must leave the hall to get to
water and rest rooms, and the outside surfaces on which they walk have
been covered with sand and mud for many months while the park is dug up
for some sort of maintenance purposes. There's no shoe policy at Glen
Echo, and many dancers there are careless about the kind of shoes they
wear and the cleanliness of them.
A similar situation exists in the Lovely Lane church in Baltimore. The
dance floor there is a hard finish that is just fine to dance on and holds
up very well. The floor there was refinished a year or so ago, and still
looks good. I've made a serious effort to find what was used on the
floor, but not even the prime contractor who supervised the job was able
to find out for me. The job was subcontracted, and the material seems to
be untraceable. It's a darn shame. The floor is never sticky, is not
too slippery, and looks good enough to satisfy almost anyone except
possibly those who feel that a floor should be treated like a work of art.
> The real problem is that contra dancers don't pick up their feet when
> they dance. Marianne Herman had a sign on her wall at Maine Camp
> that said "Shushing should be shushed." What this meant is that if you
> were not picking up your feet, you could hear it in the shush, shush,
> shush that your feet make.
Although I agree that one shouldn't drag his feet badly, the last thing
that I would want to tell a new dancer is "lift your feet"! A dancer who
doesn't lift his feet is more likely to be one who dances smoothly without
bobbing, and without occasionally putting his feet down on top of someone
else's.
> ......Listen at your local dance some time.
> Marianne was teaching international folk dance, and I am _not_
> advocating changing our dance style. This is just giving an opinion
> about why contra dance seems to be so much rougher on dance floors
> than other dance forms. It is this dragging of the surface of the sole
> across the surface of the floor, with grit in between, that causes the
> problem.
I think grinding the feet into the floor is inherent in all the pivoting
we do when we swing, twirl in a dosido, Petronella twirl, Rory O'More
balance, The skipping, slipping, and skip-change steps of English country
dancing, the schottisches, hambos, scandinavian polkas, snoas, and so on,
not to mention the stomping balances so many dancers and callers are fond
of. So, even with Marianne's foot lifting the problem will not disappear.
The answer is in the selection and care of the floor finish.
> <..snip..>
> Boy, I sure do sympathize with those of you being asked to dance in
> socks. My podiatrist has told me to NEVER go without shoes (even
> around the house) to treat Plantar Faciitis. He has also said he wants
I could not agree more. With my flat (like a pool table) feet I'd be
crippled in one evening of dancing in just socks.
> By the way, NEFFA is going to have to implement a shoe policy this
> year. They are planning on going the "clean" route. If anyone else has
> input on this topic please post! NEFFA is still looking for suggestions.
I sure hate to hear that, especially since some shoe police can't seem to
differentiate between hard leather and suede.
One more thing- Some floors are so sticky they almost necessitate a hard
leather sole to permit pivoting safely. The convention hall in Cape May,
NJ, where Victoria's revenge is held gets that way when the damp sea air
blows in through the open doors.
Alan
Elizabeth J Earhart
In article <58q5m4$5...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>longer than the sole of the shoe and never really needs to be brushed.
I find that the chrome piece does need to be brushed, and they last
for only about four or five practices. But they're still way cheaper
and longer lasting than the plastic heel tips, and they don't scratch
floors.
>I
>use white packing tape with the nylon threading running through it to
>attach them so that it blends right into the white satin of the shoe and
>the white of the chrome. No one even notices they are there.
I use the white cloth first-aid tape. My competition shoes were "dyed"
with a felt-tip pen, which I can also use to color the tape so it's
really invisible. For my black leather practice shoes, I use electrical
tape.
-Elizabeth
Eric Praetzel
In article <sjg-ya023680001...@news.itd.umich.edu>,
Steven J Gold <s...@umich.edu> wrote:
>The dance floor at Henry Ford's Lovett Hall ballroom (in Dearborn, MI) is
>made of Teak -- the hardest of the hardwoods -- and has withstood 60
>years(!) of dancing and social events (in many of which women wore
>hi-heeled "spike" shoes) with no visible damage.
take into account high heeled shoes because they will dammage stone floors.
I doubt that any wood; even teac is immune.
>Of course, very few people besides Henry Ford could afford to floor a large
>contra-dance hall with Teak. Most would settle on a cheaper hardwood like
>Maple or Oak :-)
Maple or Oak should be fine. Heck, just look at _pine_ floors used in
churches and homes. They can be gouged but I've never seen that be a
problem. With time they do wear away though.
Either way good floor (be it tile or wood) requires a wax coat to protect
it. The wax will be worn away and so protect the wood. I don't see much
reason for using ultrahard finishes due to the cost and re-coating problems.
Waxing seems to be a time honored solution that works.
As far as I can see wear and tear on a floor is a normal part of life.
We can, and should, try to minimize it but realize that fanatical methods
are most likely not going to gain anyone anything. Driving away dancers
will certainly reduce wear and tear; but I can't see it as being a good
solution.
I liked the way that things worked at the Ann Arbor Dawn Dance last year.
Sweep the floor a few times; have a shoe changing area and insist on clean
soft soled shoes. I don't see any reason for doing much beyond that.
But I'd hate to have to spend all of my time dancing on tile-on-concrete
floors like some halls I've been in and some hall owners are fanatical
enough to drive away dancers with crazy requests. But I'd include spiked
heels as being beyond the edge of sanity anyways.
Hmm. The one hall that I know has a floor that never sees contras or
squares but gets its share of Irish Ceili (400+ dancers) and ballroom as
well as "social (singles)" dancing. They probably mop the floor between
events (spilled beer etc); but there are no requirements for certain shoes
and that floor doesn't look like anyone has touched it in the few years
I've seen it. The finish is fine and dancable; but some parts of the
floor are sprung softer than others and that is the biggest headache.
- Eric
Peter Masters
Eric Praetzel wrote:
> As far as I can see wear and tear on a floor is a normal part of life.
> We can, and should, try to minimize it but realize that fanatical methods
> are most likely not going to gain anyone anything. Driving away dancers
> will certainly reduce wear and tear; but I can't see it as being a good
> solution.
>
church or town halls rented for either contra dances or Morris dance
practices, the complaint has been exactly that the dancers increased the
rate of wear and tear -- specifically, that they wore through the
urethane finish on the floor. In fact, the issue usually seems to come
up shortly after the floor is refinished, when the landlord observes
that the new finish didn't last the X years they expected it to. Asking
the dancers to wear clean shoes that they reserve only for dancing
should certainly have the effect of reducing abrasion, as should asking
people to clean off their shoes more carefully before they go on the
floor. Enforcing these rules, on the other hand, presents a clear
barrier to entry for new dancers (what? I've got to buy new shoes to
contra dance?), and I think it tends to increase the separation of the
dance from the community, which is the source of the problem in the
first place. If the dance is serving the same community as the
building's owners intended it for (the residents of the town, or the
members of the church), even in part, then I think this would be seen as
normal wear and tear, the price of holding a popular and worthwhile
community event. But if the dance community is divorced from the town,
or church, or whatever, then the hall rental becomes a simple business
transaction, and the landlord will rightly want to minimize the cost of
doing business.
Peter Masters
Gene Hubert
We've had a situation here in North Carolina where the first dance
after a wood floor had been refinished with polyurethane almost
completely removed the finish. The dance size is 125-150 and there
is fairly strong encouragement to bring clean, soft soled shoes to
change into. Within a year after this incident, we were booted
(or shooed) from the hall.
I have never seen a polyurethane finish on a dance floor that was
fit to dance on for any length of time. They are either really
tight and grab your feet or else wear away almost immediately.
I believe the instance mentioned above was an oil based (or cured)
polyurethane. However, the same floor had a water cured
polyurethane finish applied a few months later. It appeared to
hold up a little better, but was pretty well gone within 3 months.
gene hubert
Robert Maschek
Jon Leech wrote:
>
> In article <58nk2i$9...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> >floor and the heel tips as they wear down have a metal spike in the
> >center that will scratch the floor and if worn down enough will make
> >permanent marks in the wood.
>
> Is this referring to both men's and women's heels?
> Jon
> __@/
Normaly mens shows have a glued sole and ladies shows have the spike
inside because the heel of ladies shows is too small for glueing the
sole on to it.
Robert
Sandra Lee Wollin
True, however the men's shoes will leave the black shoe polish marks when
their heel covering wear too much, and they do have small metal nails
under the chrome covering that can work their way to the surface. If the
chrome is too thin, or starts to come loose this can mark the floor as
well.
A bit of Barge' (shoe glue) is usually all that is necessary to keep the
chrome in place.
Jeffrey Silverstone
Try
http://www.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&what=news&fmt=.&q=rec.fo
lk-dancing
--
http://www.his.com/mks/jps
Betsy Platt <bpl...@access5.digex.net> wrote in article
<Pine.SUN.3.94.961226...@access5.digex.net>...
>
>