Buck Brannaman in Chapel Hill--Introduction

[Darryl Wagoner]

Sylvana,

I must have missed the part where the chokes the horses, also where he
pulls them
to the ground. How about the part that he hits in the face with a
brided? Seems like
you left out all the juicy parts. ;-)

Thank you very much for you account of Buck clinic. Very much in line
with what
I saw in Maine.

--
Darryl Wagoner - International Friends of Horses (IFOH)
dar...@ifoh.org http://www.ifoh.org

[Sylvana Smith]

An Account of the Buck Brannaman Clinic
Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998
Introduction to Six-Part Series of Posts

If you’ve seen "The Horse Whisperer," you have a very brief look at the
work of "natural horsemanship" trainers, none of them exactly alike but
generally teaching a method based on the vaquero tradition of fine
horsemanship--a humane, problem-solving system with its roots in
European dressage from centuries ago.

While he would never call himself a Horse Whisperer, Buck Brannaman was
a role model for Nicholas Evans’ book and provided technical direction
and livestock handling for the Disney movie version, (even doubled for
Robert Redford himself, when necessary!). This 36-year-old Wyoming
cowboy, who credits Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance as his major influences,
has formulated a method that is uniquely his own while presenting the
best of their traditions. And he has a gift for identifying problems,
explaining precisely how to solve them, and doing it all with a direct
honesty and wry wit--the ingredients of a great clinician and not just a
great horseman.

I’ve attended his clinics in various parts of the country since 1993,
when I started my Dutch Warmblood, Indonesia, in his Colt-Starting
clinic--and I appreciate the clinics on a different level every time,
this being my 11th clinic. I consider it my regular renewal of the
things I believe most deeply about horsemanship.

The three-day Chapel Hill clinic was hosted by FEI dressage rider Susan
Hopkins and held at Lucille Mulky’s lovely Honey Locust Farm, a
Hanoverian breeding center in the green countryside west of Chapel
Hill. The breezy covered arena provided excellent footing and shade for
the round pen in which Buck worked six horses in the Colt-Starting
session. A large outdoor arena with all-season footing provided a roomy
working environment for 25 riding horses being refined under saddle with
lessons in Buck’s special brand of lightness and feel.

I audited the colt-starting sessions (feverishly taking notes all the
while), and rode a green homebred TB/QH cross, "Chance," in the
three-hour afternoon Horsemanship sessions. It was a great opportunity
to experience the familiar clinic exercises and philosophy on a horse
that has just started serious work a few months ago. (Last year I took
my "made" eventers to the Chapel Hill and Asheville clinics).

I was pleased to achieve the goals I had set out for us: feather-light
response to lateral and longitudinal rein aids, easy lateral yielding to
light leg aids, crisp upward transitions, and shifting the weight back
over the hind without rein pressure. There’s still lots of work to be
done—he’s only 80 percent there on riding the tight serpentines on leg
aids alone, it will take more repetition to get him casual cantering on
a loose rein in a high-spirited group, and I’d like to build on the flag
exercises that worked such magic for lightening the forehand with little
or no rein aids. I hated to have to go back to work after long and
indulgent days in the saddle, but heck, *somebody’s* got to buy the
Horse Chow!

As an added plus, I saw a lot of old friends and made new friends, such
as Betty Staley, who hosts Buck’s clinics in Sheridan, Montana. Betty
had flown to Chapel Hill to visit her sister and ride a borrowed horse
in the Horsemanship session. I thoroughly enjoyed sharing observations
with her during the Colt-Starting sessions, and seeing the capable way
she handled the go-ey Arabian she had borrowed!

It was also a pleasure to see Buck’s wife, Mary, again, and their
4-year-old daughter, Reata, who is just a little beam of sunshine
trotting around in her long blonde braid.

If you’re interested in hearing what goes on in a typical Buck Brannaman
colt-starting clinic, check out my six-part series of posts on the
subject. One important caveat, however! These posts are NOT intended
to be a do-it-yourself guide to starting your own colt, just a snapshot
of what you can expect if you attend such a clinic. I could not in two
dozen posts describe what the master horseman teaches in three full days
of lecture and demonstrations--9:00 am to 7:30pm (really!) under his
discerning eye. But if you have a chance to attend one of his clinics
as an auditor or participant, you’re in for a treat! But act fast; his
1999 clinics are filling up fast!

--Sylvana, an Earnest and Appreciative Student

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic
in Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998

First of Six Installments

Buck Brannaman’s three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a
Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.
This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took
place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horse—as best I can recall
from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the
progress of the first horse…
HORSE #1

The 3-year-old European-import Trakhener stallion had five weeks’
professional training, the owner said, during which time he notched up a
record of launching his riders airborne with powerful bucks. After
getting severely cast in his stall—a horrific event that resulted in a
few broken bones in his neck—he was on stall rest and emerged no better
for the experience. He was beefy and powerful for a 3-year-old, and he
needed to get going on a career soon, especially if his owners wanted
him to become a valued breeding prospect.

The horse arrived in the round pen braced, pushy, aggressive, with his
mind far outside the round pen… on the horses and goings-on outside. He
crowded the gate, every muscle tense, seeking escape, showing some
aggravation at his new burden, a Chas Weldon saddle with back cinch and
heavy stirrups dangling at his sides. Looking at the gate-sour animal,
Buck said, "With a horse like this, you might think he’s good to catch,
but in fact he’s just looking at you as a ticket out of the corral." He
emphasized that you should be able to catch your horse out in the open,
not just at the gate, and when you try this you’ll get a truer picture
of his focus and willingness.

Checking out the saddled horse on the halter rope (a 12-foot rope
attached to a knotted rope halter, with no hardware to break or injure
the horse), Buck immediately pinpointed the source of the horse’s
bucking—the way in which the hindquarters were stuck, feet not "freed
up," and the impulsiveness with which he moved when he *did* move.
"This stickiness in the hindquarter here means you couldn’t do much
about it if he bucked," Buck said. As a result, the riders who did dare
get up on this horse were helpless passengers (briefly!), since they
couldn’t control the movement of the feet.

In the next hour, the audience would see an active session of groundwork
exercises that would at times appear rough, but never rougher than the
horse pressured himself, and which were required only because the work
this horse *should* have been getting had been neglected until today.
Buck cautioned spectators that they shouldn’t expect to do what he does
in three days, but rather whatever it takes, depending on their level of
expertise. "What you see me do today might take you a month, but that’s
better then getting augered into the ground the first time you get on.
What I’m doing today is fixing what should have been done in the last 18
months, and the horse has been missing it until now."

He urged thorough preparation for such a horse, saying that most horses
will let you get by with groundwork that’s "halfway there," but not a
horse such as this, who has some experience defeating the human. "My
goal is to have them prepared so they don’t feel the need to buck, but
with this one, who has already scored on a few people, we might have to
ride a buck."

Amid a broad repertoire of exercises on the halter rope, two were
particularly beneficial for this horse:

(1) "Cornering the horse" against the fence--leading him past you
between your body and the fence, then "breaking over" the hindquarters,
followed by the forequarters, and repeating in the other direction. The
movement looks somewhat like a small figure-eight flattened against the
side of the arena. Horses such as this one are inclined to bolt through
the "narrow" of the eight, and can be discouraged from impulsiveness by
disengaging their hindquarters. The goal is to have the horse travel
non-impulsively through the movement and set himself up to "break over"
before reaching the end of the halter rope. The bigger objective is to
have the horse realize that there’s a connection between the halter-rope
and his feet. "Until you establish that consistent connection between
the reins and the feet, you’re in danger on this horse," Buck said.

(2) Backing on the halter-rope by grasping the left hand, thumb
pointing down, below the horse’s chin, and holding steady or working the
halter slightly left and right until the horse yielded his face, or made
a backward gesture, whereupon Buck would immediately give as well. "A
lot of things change in the horse when you get him soft backing
circles. Something really changes in the horse, a lightness."

"There we go, there’s a little change," Buck would say, stroking the
horse quietly, whenever the horse made a tiny try in the right
direction. By 10:00am, Buck was standing in the left stirrup, rubbing
and petting the stallion across the shoulders and neck, reassuring him,
and affirming that the horse would stand steadily but not filled with
tension, before swinging a leg over and committing. By 10:05, just an
hour after starting, Buck mounted up in a smooth, flowing move. The big
chestnut thought momentarily about bucking, just stepped out in one
humpy stride, but then eased out of it as soon as he realized Buck
wasn’t going to seize up on him or get in his way. Buck alternately
"brought up the life" and moved the horse into upward transitions and
then wound the life down through one-rein stops to the inside of the
round pen. By 10:07, Buck and the "bucks-trainers-off" stallion had
walked, trotted, and loped both directions of the round pen without
incident. By 10:20, all available slots for the 1999 clinic were
filled.

DAY TWO

3:30 pm. This powerful stallion shows once again that he has deeply
ingrained habits of evasiveness, impulsiveness, and brace in most every
move. "When he goes by, he goes by as if to go an infinite distance,
not feeling of you as if to ask, ‘How far?’" Buck notes. "He doesn’t
make arrangements with his feet." When the colt does move, he moves
with an escaping posture, stepping all over his snappy Sports Medicine
boots.

As a result, this stallion got more groundwork in the snaffle than most
of the other horses received, important reminders of all the lessons
that had been started in the halter yesterday. Waiting for the horse to
yield to the rein in an exercise: "Hold, hold, I’m waiting for him to
turn loose; that weight should be just the weight of the rein. If I
released now, I’d be telling him ‘That’s the ticket, brace is what I’m
looking for.’"

Explaining once again the technique of the hindquarter-then-forequarter
yields, Buck emphasizes that to the casual observer, it just looks like
the horse is changing direction. In fact, he’s following a very
specific movement of the feet, operating cleanly, stepping over in a
certain way. "On a green or timid one, you’ll reward just a little try
and build on it, but with a spoiled horse like this one, you’ll expect
more."

3:40pm. In the midst of his groundwork exercises, a change comes over
the stallion. All at once he seems to have realized that the outer
world with all its pretty fillies holds no interest, and he’s looking to
Buck for guidance, thinking Buck may have a plan after all. The change
bodes well for a quality ride together, even though this horse has
bucked off his previous trainers.

It is hard to create for readers a picture of the nonstop pattern of
activity, the endless series of requests and rewards, the ongoing
analysis of what to do and where to go next, coupled with nonstop
explanation of what is going on and why. But with a horse like this,
you can’t be too active, given the necessity of keeping his mind off the
mares he would want to whinny at outside. He whinnies twice, a little
confused, since they were geldings…

Today this stallion would get used to the flag, and find out how useful
it was for bringing the forequarters across, which in turn is mighty
useful for shifting the horse’s balance rearward. The exercise started
with a 180-degree turn via a one-rein stop (rider’s inside hind leg back
to shift the hindquarters across), then opening up the leading rein and
bringing up the supporting rein on the opposite side, along with
supporting leg, if necessary, to swing the forequarters across—thereby
describing a 360-degree turn in one direction as one smooth move, half
on the horse’s forehand, half on the horse’s hind end, with the help of
the flag.

"This is no bronc, he’s just an undisciplined horse," Buck said,
dismounting after a 40-minute ride. While Buck accepts questions from
the audience, the young stallion stands calmly beside him, his forehead
against Buck’s waist, with complacent eyes.

DAY THREE

"Buck, how long should you have to work a horse like this?" an auditor
asked. "How long? How long? You want me to give some complete set of
directions like a Train Your Horse calendar?" Buck retorted. "Throw
away your watch and your calendar. Just improve a little every day, and
don’t try to improve so much that you lose ground."

The chestnut stallion is not whinnying at the other horses today, and is
fully "in" the corral, mentally. "It’s amazing, you guys," Buck
chuckled, looking at the auditors whose chairs and blankets were
scooched up right to the edges of the round pen. "A few days ago you
wouldn’t get near the corral when this horse was in here; now you’re
setting up camp."

For the next hour, Buck would work the horse through an intricate dance
of movements, mixing up the movements to suit the need of the moment.
One-rein stops, bringing the hindquarters across. Bringing the head
around without the feet. With the feet. Backing with a soft feel.
Backing circles. Walking tight serpentines. Ten-foot circles, changing
the arc through the center of the circle. Wiggly lines that looked like
aimless wandering unless you noticed the precise placement of
hindquarter and forequarter. Loping him until the trot-to-canter
transitions were smooth, with the colt’s ears forward.

The pace was brisk, but Buck noted that with this horse, he’s not just
starting him, he’s catching him up on things that have been missing and
should have been done before now. And only when the pressure is turned
up a notch do you discover braces that might not appear when the ride is
less demanding.

"Take the horse to the verge of trouble and then get him out of it," he
said of a horse like this. "You could tap dance around this horse’s
problems, but that’s not improving the horse. Most people might find
this boring, but since you all have seen what the other side of this
looks like, maybe you’ll take the time to do it."

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic
in Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998

Second of Six Installments

Buck Brannaman’s three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a
Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.
This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took
place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horse—as best I can recall
from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the

progress of the second horse…
HORSE #2

The five-year-old pinto Warmblood stallion had been scoring above 70
percent in his Training Level dressage tests and earning scores in the
20s in the dressage phase at local horse trials. Most people would be
thrilled with that record of success, but the owner of this dramatic
black-and-white stallion wanted more. She’d had a taste of what it felt
like to ride a horse that Buck has refined, and she wanted it for this
horse. While a lot of things were going well for this horse, the goal
for him in this clinic was to build a lightness and crispness that he
didn’t show—even if it’s a level beyond what dressage judges expect or
reward.

Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he says
will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says with a
mischievous grin. If you ever want to get Buck going on a subject, ask
him what he thinks about longeing: "I’ve worked with more than 10,000
horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a horse without losing
the feel that you can achieve on the end of a halter rope. People get
them going around, steady, not disrespectful, but tuned out. The very
greatest dressage masters can longe with quality, but how many of them
are there?"

Another chief cause of aloofness and dullness is handling the horse with
dullness, Buck said, "riding them without a vision of how much life you
want, and accepting what you get and pretending it’s what you wanted all
along." Working the big stallion on the halter rope, Buck showed that
the horse’s groundwork wasn’t sharp when you picked up the pace of
activity, so it would be no surprise the horse’s response under saddle
wasn’t as crisp as it could be.

Since this was an established riding horse, Buck mounted up pretty
quickly to build the desired qualities from the saddle rather than the
ground. Could be done either way, he noted, but since this was a riding
horse, might as well ride him. In a busy hour that contained many
exercises, a key exercise for this horse was bringing the head around,
seeking a yield without the horse turning his head sideways. While the
horse was proficient in bending the neck around, he did it without the
appropriate give that would place his face vertical rather than nearly
horizontal (and trying to take nibbles at Buck’s boots). By raising the
hand position a little higher than usual for this exercise, and
releasing for small "tries" in the right direction, Buck worked on
getting the proper yield.

At first blush, the exercise just looks like bringing the horse’s head
around toward your knee, but there’s a valuable principle and careful
technique at work. For example, Buck takes up a soft contact, then
draws; that means there’s no bumping the horse, which would make him
afraid of the bit. The object is to set up the horse to "just melt into
the hands." Magically, as the brace leaves the horse’s neck and jaw,
leaves the horse’s hindquarter and forequarter, the life comes up in his
feet.

In the process, Buck shared a few philosophical notes about the dull
horse. For one, why not just whack the horse harder if he doesn’t go or
keep up momentum? Because it won’t work; going is not the issue,
*brace* is the issue. "Watch this horse, and you’ll see that when you
reach for him (start to initiate a rein aid for a one-rein stop or
bringing the head around), he braces first and gives last," Buck noted.
"Until he breaks loose, you could hit him with the tail of your halter
rope all you want, and you won’t be able to keep the life up."

"It’s the difference between ‘giving’ and ‘turning loose’. A lot of
horses learn how to give without turning loose. With ‘give," a horse
learns how to take the pressure off himself, but may not do it with
acceptance, with the mentally giving, which is turning loose. It’s not
about speed, it’s about getting ready. It’s ‘Did he offer me something
when I offered him the good deal?’"

This principle—having the horse move toward a release rather than moving
away from pressure--would become clear as Buck worked the horse on the
"soft feel" exercise. In this exercise, Buck takes up a tactful contact
and waits while the horse searches for the right answer, which would be
dropping the chin down and in. He waits. And waits. And waits, much
longer than most riders would allow the horse to consider things. No
see-sawing, no pulling, no jiggling, no picking. Just wait, perhaps
using a little "warmer, warmer" (slight, almost imperceptible release
when the horse is searching for the right answer), and "colder, colder"
(firming up a bit when the horse is trying to push forward). Within a
minute or so (which seems like an eternity when you’re waiting), the
horse drops his chin and Buck pushes his hands forward cleanly in a
definite, obvious release. And repeats. And repeats. And repeats,
until the horse is yielding his chin on a soft, light invitation.

This exercise progresses into backing on the soft feel, which will
encourage the horse to shift his weight over his hocks without pulling
on him—preparation for a later exercise in bringing the forequarters
across. "Folks will say, ‘But Buck, I’ve never seen a rollback in my
jump courses, I don’t need this.’ I’m not on a jump course, but I just
want to get him where I can use his legs."

At the conclusion of Day One’s session with this horse, Buck noted that
he pressured the horse far more than he would pressure a green colt,
because this was a mature riding horse that had gotten into some heavy,
dull habits, not a green youngster needing reassurance.

DAY TWO

The big black-and-white stallion started the session at about 80 percent
of the point he had achieved by the end of yesterday’s session. No
problem, Buck said. "There will be some time when he’ll check things
out, see if I’m the same as I was yesterday, or even the same as I was
an hour ago. Well, I am. There will be times when he reverts, seems
like he forgets what we’ve been working on. That’s okay, as long as
*one* of us is consistent!"

Within a few minutes, the horse is backing with quality, breaking over
behind more cleanly than yesterday, and backing circles with much less
brace than before. Today’s lesson gave them much more opportunity to
refine each exercise that was visited yesterday, particularly bringing
the forequarters across.

While working through the now-familiar exercises, Buck elaborated on
"the good deal"—the light aid that should be offered as the horse’s
first cue. Most folks think a light squeeze or a slight kick is
"offering the good deal," but Buck’s picture is a much lighter aid than
that. It’s "showing him your intentions." That means that when asking
the horse to move forward, for example, the "good deal" isn’t a light
squeeze, it’s sitting a little more lightly in the saddle and lifting
your legs away from the horse, just showing him your intentions. The
fine-tuned horse will move forward with this subtle an invitation. This
horse, a work-in-progress, doesn’t hear that fine invitation and gets a
firm kick to get going. Within a few tries, he’s listening more
carefully to the fine invitation, the exact result his owner is seeking.

DAY THREE

On Day Three, Buck repeats the full range of familiar exercises, with
particular emphasis on flagging the horse to bring the forequarters
across, which works wonders for getting a horse light on the forehand,
without building dullness to the reins—because the reins are barely used
at all.

To make this horse’s upward transitions more lively, Buck did many, many
transitions from a back… first backing with a soft feel, then moving
crisply forward into a walk, jog, or lope. This exercise not only rocks
the horse’s weight over his hindquarters, for the impulsion needed for
powerful departures, it is a wonderful way of identifying any hard spots
in the horse, where he might stall out or brace between reverse and
forward, or vice versa. Seems counterintuitive, to use a lot of backing
to get a horse more forward, but the results are dramatic.

The horse finished out his third ride with Buck by joining the
Horsemanship group in the upper arena, and working like a gentleman in
and around 25 mares and geldings in crowded quarters—testament to the
good work his owner has been doing, and the degree to which his
attention was focused on his rider rather than his surroundings, an
excellent quality in a riding stallion.

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic

in Chapel Hill, North CarolinaóJuly 31-August 2, 1998

Third of Six Installments

Buck Brannamanís three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a

Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.
This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took

place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horseóas best I can recall

from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the

progress of the third horseÖ
HORSE #3

12:45 pm. The battle-scarred two-year-old bay gelding had spent the
lunch break ambling loose in the round pen, carrying his saddle. His
owners said the only previous colt-starting work he had was being
saddled. Half-dozing when the group returned, he startled when he woke
up and realized that he was packing a big wad of leather on his back,
and launched into bucking. This was an excellent reminder of why Buck
has us keep our colts busy, busy, busy during our first rides with them,
never allowing them to wander off mentally.

Buck moved the bay horse through upward and downward transitions in the
round pen, then drew him in from the rail, with the hindquarters
disengaging and the eye turned softly toward Buckó"hooking on." When
the horse brought his focus into Buck and away from the commotion
outside the arena, Buck had him drop his head for haltering, then
proceeded efficiently through a set of halter-rope exercises on the
ground.

For this colt, Buck determined that backing would be a key exercise,
especially backing circles. At first it seemed that the horse would
fling his head every which way except relaxed. Grasping the halter rope
under the chin with his left hand, Buck held steadily but released
*immediately* with each tiny try the horse made toward backing with his
chin down and in. At points where the horse became braced, Buck grasped
his right hand on the breastcollar or saddle, so if the horse leapt out
of the brace by flying backward, Buck would go with him, not get hit
with the horseís head, or struck. He also noted that he positioned
himself close to the horseís shoulder to protect himself in case the
horse should sling his head, which the colt tried often at first, a
trick he had used often to dominate humans on the lead rope.

The horse was particularly braced backing circles on the halter rope,
but that "brace" was manifested not necessarily by refusal to back but
also by awkward movement that lacked flow (the horse stepped all over
himself behind). Buck noted that just because the horse is backing
doesnít mean heís backing with quality and "turning loose behind," and
it took many, many steps backwardó100 or soóbefore getting to a good
spot to release and move to something else.

1:05. Buck stands in the left stirrup, checks out the horseís reaction
to rubbing and petting on both sides of the shoulder and neck, and then
swings a leg over the saddle and moves smoothly onto bringing the head
around, walking out, one-rein stops, and moreówith nothing on the
horseís head but a knotted rope halter and one rope, which he flips over
the horseís head to use on the opposite side.

By 1:11 he shows us that the horse is a little tentative moving out on
the left leadóconfirming the prediction he made based on the horseís
greater brace backing right circles. Rather than insist on a steady
left lead for many strides before being satisfied, Buck encourages the
horse to move up into the lope on a completely loose rein, then rewards
him for a stride or two of left lead, and winds him down with a one-rein
stopÖ then brings the life back up again. The number of strides gets
better and better each time, and so does the horseís relaxation. The
disunited canter has evened out, the impulsive squirts have become
smooth upward transitions, and the one-rein stops are flowing.

In the next half-hour, Buck would move the horse through dozens of
transitions, helping the horse move out by swinging the tail of the
halter rope on the rump or on his own leg, or by a swack-swack of the
lariat coils against his chaps. The object is to bring up the life,
show him that he can move freely forward without fear that the rider
will seize up and constrain him, all without dulling the colt with lots
of leg.

"Isnít it interesting that the horse that hasnít been ridden is the
quickest to make a change," Buck notes. "How did I know he wasnít going
to buck when I got on? Because I got that backing going good. That
trouble in his neck wasnít about his neck, it was about every cell in
his brain. It wasnít physical, it was ëturning loose.í"

DAY TWO
The bay gelding started the morning loose in the round pen with the gray
filly and Palomino colt, wearing his saddle and enduring hostile looks
and squeals from the filly. For two hours already, he had been part of
the party while the other two youngsters were worked from the ground on
the halter rope, with the bridle, and then ridden. He had even followed
the lariat on the ground around like a cat chasing a pull toy. And had
long ago forgotten to be concerned about his saddle.

After an efficient check-up on his groundwork in the halter rope, this
coltís Day Two encounter would have him doing groundwork in the snaffle,
then proceeding to riding at the walk, jog, and lope. Although the
horse was sometimes reluctant to move out and sometimes bursty, soon he
was easing into the job, moving forward when Buck just showed him the
rope. The progression of aids was: (1) show him your intentions (by
lightening the seat and taking the leg away from the horseís side), and
if that wasnít enough, (2) using a light, alive leg (not a dull
squeeze), and if needed, (3) following up with the tail of the halter
rope across the horseís haunches, or slapping his hand on his chaps, or
"ch-ch-ch-ch" to urge the colt up into the lope. The lope isnít
maintained by nagging the colt with any of those aids, itís maintained
by riding with the rhythm, Buck said. "If riding with the rhythm isnít
enough to maintain the lope, then come through with the halter rope."
But no dulling squeeze-squeeze-squeeze or any other sort of nagging.
Just get a change and release.

"Always get a change," Buck emphasized. "Think of how many times youíve
kicked, didnít get a change, and stopped kicking, and youíre telling him
that getting dull is exactly what you want."

How about doing this with a whip instead of a rope? "The whip is just
not too handy, especially with one thatís a bit bronc-ey," Buck said.
For one, youíd have to let go of the whip in order to rub and pet the
horse, but you can accomplish that with rope in hand. "Iíll do a lot of
touching him behind so he doesnít think that every time heís touched
back there it means heís gotta go."

Buck did most of his riding in the early part of the session without
picking up the reins, just moving through upward and downward
transitions on gentle circuits of the round pen, being guided with leg
and directional signals from the outheld coiled-up lariat. "I donít want
to overconfine him, I just want to get him confident going forward,"
Buck said. Continuing the practice of giving the horse exposure to
things that worry him, Buck did a lot of work getting the horse to
"change eyes," focusing on the horseís apparent discomfort with having
the human shift from the right eye to left eye.

After 45 minutes of exercisesóbringing the head around, one-rein stop,
small circles with hind and fore quarters describing the same arc,
changes of bend through the volte, swinging the rope, and moreóthe horse
looked like one of Buckís saddle horses. The flighty 2-year-old that
yesterday looked like a frazzled quail, desperate for a way out of the
round pen before anything had even gotten started, today was standing on
a loose rein with his muzzle below his knees while Buck swing the lariat
every which way. "Isnít it amazing how much they can change in 24
hours," Buck noted. Indeed.

DAY THREE

The bay colt worked through a half-hour of ground work on the snaffle,
then more under saddle, building on yesterdayís work. Today he was
loping around the round pen remarkably light, soft, and round, still on
a completely loose rein.

Still, he was a little tentative loping on the left lead, required some
encouragement to get there. So Buck just moved him up to get a few good
strides, then wound him down. Instead of trying for five good circles
of the round pen, for instance, he showed the horse he was pleased with
a few good strides, and then built on that to build the horseís
confidence. He explained that he did less work on one-rein stops with
this colt, because he didnít want to lose the opportunity to build
forwardness.

And at times the colt was a little cranky, but eased out of it when he
got "freed up" moving his feet. Seems odd, does it, that the horse gets
more and more pleasant the more actively he is worked and challenged?
Buck explains it this way: "If the horse is troubled, doesnít think he
can move his feet, pretty soon heíll be defensive. Imagine if you were
at the beach with nothing but a stick, buried in sand up to your waist
and unable to move your feet, and you were surrounded by people who
ignored you or maybe even didnít like you. It wouldnít be long before
youíd be swinging that stick at anybody who came near."

After easing the crankiness out of this horse and having a productive
ride, Buck dismounted and urged the group to do a better job with their
youngsters so they wouldnít have the drama of the last three days. The
bay colt is standing with his head lowered, eyes soft, mouth relaxedÖ
but just two days earlier he was frantically seeking a way to climb out
of the corral.

"They shouldnít have to get soaking wet to get ëem going and get ëem
where you need ëem. If you did this stuff at home when they were young,
your first minute of your first ride would look like this ride just did,
and youíll get to the point where folks wonít want to watch you start
colts any more, because you donít provide any entertainment. Thatís the
goal."

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic

in Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998

Fourth of Six Installments

Buck Brannaman’s three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a

Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.

This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took

place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horse—as best I can recall

from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the

progress of the fourth horse…

HORSE #4

The compact Palomino Quarterhorse gelding had about six rides under him,
all without bucking anyone off, the seller had claimed. But the new
owner was skeptical, and so was Buck, as the horse bucked explosively
when saddled, ran backward trying to wrest the lead shank out of his
owner’s hands, and reared almost to the point of flipping over—all while
waiting for his turn with Buck.

Highly impulsive, he burst by Buck in his first circuits of the round
pen, moving tight, out of self-preservation. "Somebody’s taught this
horse how to move into pressure," Buck noted, as the horse slung his
head into Buck’s upraised open palm. "Nobody sets out to do that, but
they do it from lack of awareness."

This cute Palomino would get a taste of the full repertoire of
halter-rope exercises, but with special emphasis on two that he
particularly needed: "cornering" him against the fence, and backing.
"Cornering" the horse is an exercise in leading him past you between

your body and the fence, then "breaking over" the hindquarters, followed
by the forequarters, and repeating in the other direction. The movement

looks like a small figure-eight flattened against the side of the
arena. Horses such as this one want to bolt through the "narrow" of the
eight at first, but gradually lose their impulsiveness through repeated
disengagement of the hindquarters. Why burst through when there’s no
need and nothing to gain?

Why work on backing for a horse whose worst vice is pulling back? "It’s
the worst backers who are the ones that pull back," Buck said. "There’s
a big difference between running backwards trying to pull the lead shank
out of your hand… and backing with quality."

The evasiveness that caused the horse to run backward and rear also made
him a problem for haltering, and Buck worked patiently getting the horse
to lower his head, rather than "chasing him up" for haltering. In the
process, he gave the audience an earful about keeping earsful of hair on
the horses, and the folly of standing on a stepladder to clip or braid
when the horse is fully capable of lowering his head all the way to the
ground.

Within minutes, Buck has softened the horse to the point where he can
swing up into one stirrup, rub the horse across the shoulders, and
settle softly into the saddle. Using only a rope halter and single
rope, as with the others on Day One, he checks out the horse’s responses
on the yielding exercises they’d been doing from the ground, then moves
him out into a walk, trot, and lope… never touching the rein but rather
holding the coiled-up lariat on the side of the colt’s jaw to turn him,
if necessary (always offering with the leg first).

Although he appears absolutely casual on the horse that was so rank 20
minutes ago, he said, "I’m most suspicious of horses that have had a few
rides. The way this one is pretty switchy with his tail, operates with
his ears pinned, is a sign that he’s been ridden just enough to get him
irritated."

"What would you do if he bucked?" came the question from the audience.
It’s a question Buck hears a lot, and he gives the same answer. "He’s
not gonna." "But Buck, what if he DID buck?" "He’s not gonna," comes
the reply. "But Buck…" and by then Buck relents, knowing that someday
one of us might get on a horse that we haven’t thoroughly checked out
through groundwork, or one that’s fresh with good spirits and brisk
weather. "Take the head around, untrack the hindquarter, take the
hindquarter out of gear. Don’t jerk him, and don’t use the
disengagement as punishment, just shut him down so you can move up and
try again. If it’s just little crow-hop or a humpy stride, hurry him to
make it difficult for him."

"Will he be this good first thing tomorrow or will you have to go
through all that groundwork again?" came another question from the
audience. "Tomorrow isn’t based on today," Buck answered. "It’s based
on where he is tomorrow. Wherever he is, I’m not gonna say, ‘Damn you,
you forgot what I showed you yesterday, now I have to show you again.’
When the horse says, ‘I’m kinda lost on the things we worked on
yesterday, well I say, ‘You’ve come to the right place, because I can
help you.’ A lotta folks take it personal, get angry. If that’s the
case, you should give up horses and do something you can enjoy."

DAY TWO
As Day Two got underway, the 3-year-old Palomino found himself saddled
in the round pen with the battle-scarred bay gelding and the dainty gray
filly. The threesome had a lot of time to chat about their
predicaments, carrying their big ole saddles, while auditors filed in
and unfolded their chairs around the arena.

After checking out the horse briefly on yesterday’s groundwork, Buck
prepared the horse for bridling by rubbing all over the face, getting
him yielding with his chin in, tipping the head toward him by placing
his fingertips against the jaw on the opposite side, and checking him
out around the mouth. With his right elbow over the crest of the neck,
left hand across the bridge of the nose, he tipped the horse’s head
toward him to smoothly slip the bridle on.

The now-familiar groundwork was repeated with the bridle to get the
horse used to pressure from the bit, and establish that there is a
connection between the reins and the feet with this new tack. Buck
pointed out that the horse moved stiffly behind, stepped laterally with
small steps. "If they’re just shuffling their feet, they can remain
tight, remain in that braced posture that will get you bucked off," Buck
said. The hindquarter has to move freely, not just move.

Before and after mounting up, he’ll work a lot on bringing the head
around, then bringing the hindquarter across, until that movement gets
fluid and the horse steps deeply across with his inside hind. "This
horse has less feel than the gray horse because this one has already had
someone fooling with him in the snaffle. He figures that if he just
leans on me long enough I’ll give up and let go." The horse will
eventually see Buck’s point of view consistently. "If you get this
one-rein stop as natural as breathing, then you can venture out with
confidence that you can always get out of a crisis," Buck notes. "But
be sure you’re getting the hindquarter stepping across and disengaging,
not just the head coming around."

Because this horse moves out impulsively, Buck does a lot of bringing
the life up and winding it down with a one-rein stop. In four
repetitions you can already see the canter get softer, the wrong leads
and disunited leads disappear as the brace leaves the horse’s body.

Within minutes, the Palomino has a job to do, being used as Buck’s
saddle horse to give the bay horse some experience in "changing eyes,"
which is so disconcerting to the bay—especially on the left eye-- that
he squirts off bucking the first time. By the time this ride is over,
the Palomino will not only have his first experience having a real job,
he’ll be accustomed to having the rope swung all around him, hearing the
coils of the lariat swack-swacking against the side of the saddle, and
having the lariat tossed out and coiled up again and again.

Things were looking pretty good, but Buck cautioned the group: "About
the time you think it’s good, you’re just getting started."

DAY THREE

You can see why the camera crews sit eagerly by ringside for Day One and
rarely show up for Day Three. If you hadn’t seen this colt mowing down
his handlers, leaping, pushing, and rearing vertical just 48 hours ago,
you’d think nothing of his display today after 20 minutes of
groundwork: stepping over politely behind when Buck stepped in toward
his hindquarters, moving about casually with his saddle, and backing
with a soft feel, chin down and in.

All the while working the horse out of habitual braces, Buck kept up a
nonstop narration about the obsolescence of longeing, the cowardice of
folks who wear their horses down before riding instead of getting their
horses "right" inside, the ruggedness of the Cavalry remount horses that
were raised in eastern Montana, the resourcefulness of mustangs who can
dig through four feet of snow to find winter grass, the qualities a
stallion must display if you intend to use him for breeding stock, which
breed of horse has the most powerful buck (Percherons and Shires crossed
with TBs and Morgans are highly prized for rodeo strings), and so on. A
wealth of horse lore while one Palomino horse is turned to Palomino
butter.

"What level of pressure do you use?" came a question from the audience.
"It varies from horse to horse, from day to day, and from moment to
moment," Buck noted. The goal is to seek the lightest possible
pressure, then to have the horse moving toward release rather than
moving into pressure. He explained his technique of varying pressure in
a single exercise in a "hotter-colder" message to the horse; you can
increase the pressure slightly when he’s getting farther from the right
answer (or not searching at all), and lighten up when he’s getting
closer ("warmer, warmer"). "I’m not using leg to make him move over,
I’m using it to help him."

During a long and vigorous ride (this horse was sturdy and fit), the
audience got lots of examples in maneuvering the horse, balancing him,
performing upward and downward transitions, all without the reins. In
fact, much of the time that Buck was loping, the reins were looped
around the saddle horn, quite idle, while he used the flag, or the
coiled-up lariat, or the tail end of the halter rope to control
direction—always in concert with leg.

But if you have no reins, how do you keep the horse from cutting the
corner and describing an egg shape instead of a circle? This colt is
too green to two-track back to the rail, Buck said, so if the horse
drifted in toward the center, he eased back down to a trot with his seat
and by breaking the hindquarter across, then drew an "S" by breaking the
hindquarters in the other direction and then back again, which would
have him back out at the rail and moving back up into the lope, without
ever touching the reins. The horse, being smart, realizes that staying
out on the rail is a heap easier than performing a tight serpentine.

But tight serpentines were part of the prescription for this horse, who
had so much difficulty moving his hindquarters laterally in previous
sessions. Today he was stepping over behind, clearly crossing over,
without the mincing little stiff steps he’d been showing before. "He
oughta make you a pretty good little horse," Buck said, handing him back
to his owners at the end of a third productive ride.

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic
in Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998

Fifth of Six Installments

Buck Brannaman’s three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a
Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.
This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took
place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horse—as best I can recall
from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the

progress of the fifth horse…
HORSE #5

2:15 pm. The big, beefy bay gelding was a two-year-old, the owner said,
a gift from her husband as a weanling, but he was as big as his
Thoroughbred/Percheron breeding would suggest. The disrespectful
weanling they turned out to pasture 18 months ago didn’t improve with
age and physical maturity, and now the owners needed help. In fact, he
had struck the owner during a dramatic trailer-loading at home and had
somehow got turned around in the trailer en route to the clinic.

Buck worked this one from his saddle horse—which would give him the
advantage of more presence and leverage while working with this huge and
disrespectful animal. Buck roped him around the neck and within minutes
would show us why the horse flipped himself around in the trailer: the
horse kicked violently at the feel of the rope around his hindquarters.
Can you imagine what he thought about the butt bar of the trailer?

This horse was used to pushing his weight around and intimidating
humans. He tried every trick to get Buck to yield to him, rather than
the other way around, and when none of his familiar colt-tricks worked,
he resorted to trying to bite Buck in the leg, which didn’t work
either. "He’s trying to make me blink, but I’m not going to blink,"
Buck said.

The next hour was quite active for horse and handler, with the horse
slowly coming to the realization that the best place to be was
positioning himself politely with respect to the positioning of the
human. "I don’t like to see a horse go through this trouble," Buck
said, mid-process. "You folks out there who have babies at home, why
not work them when they’re little babies, make friends with them, and
then they won’t have to go through all this trouble when they’re big and
powerful like this one." Buck says he catches up his colts only 20
times or less in their first few years, but those encounters are handled
with quality, and the colts are turned back out with positive lessons
and a positive mindset, so the "starting" process is uneventful and
quiet. "All the groundwork you see me doing this weekend you can be
doing with your weanlings. I’m not going to give you a specific
schedule; give ‘em what you’ve got, but get something good going."

"But Buck, doesn’t a horse have just a 15-minute attention span?" came
the question. "That’s baloney," Buck said. "It’s pretty self-indulgent
of the human to think that just because the horse isn’t paying attention
to *them* that he isn’t paying attention. A horse *survives* by paying
attention. You just have to be more interesting than the things going
on around them."

By this time the horse was yielding softly to the feel of the lariat
across the bridge of his nose, and nuzzling Buck with soft eyes. Buck
slipped the halter on, and the horse responded to the familiar "lean
against this" halter by slinging his head up with a taut brace. Buck
held patiently and within 30 seconds the head came down and in. "That’s
it, there’s a release."

Buck reminded the group to be constantly looking for things that make
the horse uneasy, and instead of subconsciously avoiding those things,
work on them until they’re resolved. If the horse flinches at having
the halter-rope swung over the saddle, do it until he doesn’t care. If
the horse steps into you to get you to retreat, work on it until he
steps away reliably when you step into him.

This horse was so flinchy that Buck took his time rubbing him with the
saddle pad, swinging it over his back again and again until the horse
stopped flinching, and saddling him smoothly—all the while keeping the
horse "with him, mentally." Not surprisingly, the flinchy big horse
leapt up bucking at the first feel of the cinch, but settled out of it
when Buck disengaged the hindquarters. "I don’t hold that against him,"
Buck said. "He’s just being himself."

Buck slipped the halter off, mounted up his saddle horse, and allowed
the horse to try to buck his way out of the saddle for 5-6 turns of the
round pen. Buck roped him again, and worked the big colt through
yielding exercises until he had forgotten that the saddle was even an
issue, and the rope was a non-issue, even around his rump.

3:00pm. Buck tells the group that the horses that are started with the
rope around the neck, then moved to the halter, tend to become better
halter-broken than the ones that start right with the halter. His
rationale is that because you have more leverage with the halter, it’s
easier to do less and still get results, but you have to be more
thorough, more accurate to get the same results with the neck rope.
It’s noteworthy that the work on the halter-rope and the neck rope is
effective because of timing rather than pressure; Buck does almost all
this work for all three days without gloves.

"Would you bring him along this fast if you had this horse at home?"
came an audience question. "You bet," Buck said. "Because he’s a
danger to everyone around him like this, and he’s been like this for too
damn long."

3:12pm. Buck walks alongside the colt, bumping him with the stirrup as
a cue for forward movement, releasing when he gets it. After checking
out the horse’s response to being petted across the shoulders and on the
saddle and rump while Buck stands in the left stirrup, he swings his
right leg over and rides the horse (yes, the same horse that just 20
minutes earlier was bucking so hard that he flung dirt against the roof
of the arena).

And it’s no sneaky, "hope-the-horse-doesn’t-notice-me" ride either.
Buck flaps his feet, rubs the horse all over his rump, pats his chaps,
flicks his lariat, swings the tail of his halter rope, and otherwise
acts nonchalant while moving the horse through all three gaits within
the next 10 minutes… without a touch on the halter rope except
occasionally to wind him into a one-rein stop. Nothing more dramatic
out of the horse than a little bit of kicking up at the canter at first.

DAY TWO
The big TB/Percheron cross had been loafing at liberty in the round pen
with his saddle, awaiting his turn, but suddenly broke out a’bucking
with big heaving grunts, for no apparent reason. Discovering for
himself that his big, heaving grunts and bucks had no result, he eased
out of it within a few turns of the round pen.

Remembering that this horse had a violent distaste for the feel of the
rope around his hindquarter, or anywhere for that matter, Buck deftly
roped him around the inside rear pastern. The horse responded with
swift, aggressive kicks, lightning fast, many in a row. The kind of
kicks that would kill a person in the wrong place at the wrong time, as
a farrier would be. "From where I am (15 feet away), that kick is no
big deal, I’m not impressed. But if one of those kicks caught you on
the head, that would be pretty impressive."

Buck held the pressure until the horse relaxed and softened, which would
take a long five minutes, it seemed. The object was to see the horse
release his hind leg, and allow it to rest behind the vertical,
unweighted—the posture he would assume just as he was ready for the
farrier to trim him. The rope is soft from much use, so it doesn’t
leave any marks at all on the pastern, and the metal honda ensures that
the loop releases as soon as the horse gives.

The left side was problematic for this horse, who was extremely brace-ey
on the left side to begin with. But within minutes he accepts the
pressure around his pastern, gives, and stretches the leg back with all
the tension removed. Repeating this process to the right was no big
deal at all, just a few half-hearted shrugs of the leg, then relaxation…
a few steps forward to retry, a few shrugs of the leg, then relaxation.
Buck then moved to picking up the horse’s feet and setting them down
softly, rubbing him all up and down the leg, and ensuring that the horse
holds himself up, doesn’t lean. Whomever this horse’s farrier is, he’ll
be reaping the benefits. "Even if they’re not kicking out at you,
there’s a lot you should be doing to get your horse good to their feet."

After working through some halter-rope exercises, particularly a lot of
breaking the hindquarters over (with lots of explanation of technique),
Buck bridled the big horse, who lowered his head willingly for the
procedure.

2:50pm. Buck is standing in the left stirrup, rubbing and petting the
horse across the shoulders and neck, then swinging a leg over and
settling quietly into the saddle. 2:52pm, they’re jogging and loping
around the round pen on a completely loose rein. The horse (who was
bucking so violently yesterday that you could hear the swish of dirt
hitting the arena ceiling) looked considerably quieter today, but still
kicked up a bit when he was swacked with the tail of the halter rope, or
took a few humpy strides. "I’ll just hurry him through it," Buck said.
"Telling him, ‘If you want to get away from pressure, you can’t do it by
bucking.’"

3:00pm. Buck asked the auditors to move some round pen panels out of
the way so he could ride the big bay colt in the arena. Working him at
a walk, jog, and lope in the greater arena, it’s amazing to see that the
horse is not only doing the job, but carrying himself with an ease that
makes him look like one of Buck’s saddle horses, especially when Buck
starts swinging big loops of rope from the nonchalant horse.

The ride looks nice to us, but Buck has felt some pushiness remaining,
so at the end of the ride he revisits the groundwork exercise in backing
with the soft feel, chin down and in, and moving the horse past him on a
subtle invitation. At one point, the big horse forgets who he’s with,
and crumbles against the arena wall instead of moving forward between
Buck and the fence. "If he won’t lead, I’ll drive him," Buck noted.
"I’m not going to get in a dragging discussion."

DAY THREE

With his history of dominance over the human, this big horse was one
resistant fella, starting each day about 30 percent reverted from the
previous day’s good graces. For one, the horse seemed determined to
position Buck on one side or the other, but not softly change eyes.
Working him on the halter rope, Buck could send a coil travelling
swiftly down the length of the rope to catch the horse on the side of
the chin, a movement that most horses would have shied away from but
this one leaned into—at first. With presence and persistence, Buck made
steady progress. ‘With a horse this big, there’s no way you could pull
him to you, you’ve got to make it uncomfortable for him to be where he
is." Soon the horse discovered that if he allowed slack in the rope,
the rope wouldn’t come back at him, and started volunteering to move his
feet—moving toward the release rather than away from pressure.

"They should be setting themselves up to be with you," Buck noted.
"Pretty soon this horse won’t *want* to be at the end of the rope." On
the technique he used (sending a coil up the halter rope with a twist of
the wrist), Buck cautioned that you wouldn’t do this with a young horse
just being taught to lead. The method was necessitated because this one
was dangerously undisciplined.

At this point, Buck pauses a moment to put on his microphone, and in the
pause, all four horses loose in the round pen gather around him,
muzzles, eyes and ears tipped in his direction in a tight little
huddle. Interesting how quickly these rank, spoiled youngsters grow to
admire the one who shows them a clear path and offers them a good deal.

By 10:00am, Buck is in the saddle, immediately working on bringing the
head around, one-rein stops, and all the now-familiar repertoire. By
10:10 they’re loping big loops around the round pen, alongside the three
other horses: Palomino, bay, and skittish gray filly. Gradually, the
other horses discover that the center of the round pen is their safe
zone, and the aloof gray filly starts blending in with the others.

In the course of a hour-long ride, Buck works through hundreds of
movements, with special emphasis on breaking over the hindquarters in
one-rein stops, because this horse has learned how to escape from the
human by sliding sideways. He needs a lot of experience breaking over
cleanly behind.

No humpiness allowed, no disrespect, no wandering off mentally. And by
the time Buck dismounts at 11:00am, the ferocious bucker we saw on Day
One looks like Grandma’s going-to-town horse.

[Sylvana Smith]

A Synopsis of the Buck Brannaman Colt-Starting Clinic
in Chapel Hill, North Carolina—July 31-August 2, 1998

Sixth of Six Installments

Buck Brannaman’s three-day clinic in Chapel Hill, NC, included a
Colt-Starting session for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
restarted, or refined by Buck--and a Horsemanship section for riding
horses.

This is the first in a six-part series of posts describing what took
place in the Colt-Starting section, horse by horse—as best I can recall
from pages of scrawled notes. In this installment, we track the

progress of the sixth horse…

HORSE #6

The dainty gray filly looked like an Anglo-Arab and danced through the
commotion on tiptoes like a stereotypical Arab, but she was actually a
Hanoverian from top bloodlines. She was flinchy, looked like she would
jump out of her skin at the slightest provocation. Her owner, who is 7
months pregnant, was happy to let this basically unhandled 2-year-old be
started by someone else, even though she’s started her own colts
successfully in the past.

After seeing the high-strung filly burst through the gate into the round
pen, Buck opened with a discussion of what folks do with their
youngsters when they claim they haven’t worked with them at all. "Folks
think, just because they haven’t saddled ‘em, that they haven’t started
‘em. How many times has a two-year-old here on the East Coast been
handled by this point? It’s been moved from the barn to the pasture, or
from one pasture to another. It’s had it’s feet trimmed, been
vaccinated. Heck, this one has a brand, somebody put that there. The
question is, ‘How was he when they left him?’ After getting caught up
and vaccinated, you say the colt was a little worse than before you
caught him up? On a sensitive one like this one, eventually that will
come back and bite you."

"When they’re taken away from their mothers, we take on responsibility
as their keeper. Do your jobs, you guys." Buck noted that when he
implemented the new clinic format, in which only six horses are in the
Colt-Starting, all of them worked by Buck, he hoped that folks would
really do their homework and bring him horses they were really proud of,
with the intent of seeing how far they could go. But in fact people
have been bringing him their biggest problems.

The filly starts the halter-rope session very bracey, while being worked
from Buck’s saddle horse. Lacking any display of lateral flexion on the
halter rope, this is the type of horse that will buck you off in a
hurry. In the minimal handling the filly had experienced, she had
discovered that she could displace the human, get the human to walk
around her rather than position herself politely to maintain a bubble of
space between them.

The filly was particularly stuck yielding the forequarter to the left,
so Buck continued this work even after he had handed the saddle horse
back to his assistant. He’d first offer the good deal, holding up open
palms, and when she’d hold her ground or sling her head toward him, he’d
press the heel of his hand on the side of her jaw, below the ear,
releasing when the took the forequarters across and away from him.
"right now she’s saying she can’t move over without running me over;
pretty soon that will work out."
This exercise was repeated patiently dozens of times before it became
smooth and automatic—and would be revisited many times in the next three
days, in many different ways.

4:10pm. While Horsemanship participants milled about in the upper
arena, Buck swung a leg over the filly who had by now become soft,
stepping over behind as Buck stepped in toward her haunches, yielding
the forequarters on the "good deal." Within minutes he had eased her
through the walk, trot, and canter in the halter on a completely loose
rein—while the audience watched her twitchy ears turn forward, her
expression get soft, and the stiffness ease out of her back.

DAY TWO
9:00am. The last horse to be worked on Day One, the filly was the first
to be worked on Day Two. Saddled and turned loose in the round pen
along with the Palomino and the battle-scarred bay, her alert eyes
darted between the incoming audience, and her companions—who were
periodically the targets of her restless squeals and nips.

Buck started the day by desensitizing this flighty filly all over her
body, patting her with cupped hands across her back until she stopped
flinching and humping up. By cupping the hands, the movement doesn’t
sting the horse, just makes a noise. "Don’t be surprised if you get the
horse calm to this, then move off a few steps, and find it bothers her
all over again," Buck noted, and the filly did exactly as he predicted.
"Just stay with it. Anybody can do this; it takes very little skill to
pat them like this. Do it. Mix it up with a lot of reassurances,
rubbing. " Soon the filly was standing doe-eyed, relaxed. "There’s a
lot of things you can do to get a horse gentle, things that are pretty
simple, if you just remember to do ‘em."

Why saddle this dainty dressage prospect in a big ole Western saddle?
"Because when you’re starting in an English saddle you’re not there.
You can go from a Western saddle to an English saddle no sweat, but
going the other way, that can sometimes be a little rough."

The filly is travelling loose around the round pen with her back humped
up, "leaving enough room to stash your lunch under the saddle," Buck
noted. "We’re going to want to get her more comfortable."

That would happen in the next hour on the halter rope, repeating the
fundamental exercises in breaking over the hindquarter, taking the
forequarter across, cornering her against the fence, backing with a soft
feel in circles, etc. Buck emphasized that you should always offer the
good deal first, the simple upraised "leading" hand as a cue to move
forward, for example, before reinforcing with the tail of the halter
rope.

Buck pointed out to the audience that when the filly was concerned, such
as when the rope was swung over the saddle, she responded in a natural
way on the right side (wanting to escape), but in an unnatural way on
the left side (wanting to run over the human), and that’s the side that
has received the most experience. This is not coincidence. Nobody sets
out to train their horses to run them over, but it’s pretty common.
"Don’t wait until you’ve got horse tracks running up the front of you,"
Buck said. "When they’re making plans to run you over, change the
plan. Step into the shoulder and move her over."

The pretty filly would face two big new experiences today: (1) being
flagged on the halter rope with a soft blue "flag" that acts as a
directional aid to help position the horse and balance him without
pulling on him, and (2) carrying a bit and bridle (remember that
yesterday’s ride was in a simple rope halter with one rope).

After getting the filly to lower her head to waist height and tip her
nose toward him for briding, he slipped the bridle on smoothly, took the
rope halter off, and adjusted the bit a little higher than normal
because this fidgety filly seemed to be a candidate for trying to get
her tongue over the bit. Now, "normal" for Buck is much lower than most
folks set their snaffles, so "higher that normal" is about the
two-wrinkle look that most English riders have long accepted as gospel.
Buck doesn’t set the bit with wrinkles in the corners of the horse’s
mouth, because he says that the pressure applied by the headstall by
that bridle adjustment is pressure that is no longer available to him
for conversing with the horse. Removes fineness before you ever get
started.

10:04am. Buck swung lightly into the saddle and started showing the
filly how to yield to the unfamiliar feel of the snaffle, which she’d
only experienced for a few moments of groundwork. 10:05, they’re loping
on a loose rein, while Buck flaps his arms, slaps his hand on his chaps,
and in other ways nonchalantly accustoms her to the things she might
experience in her new career as a riding horse.

"If when she’d gotten a little humpy (which she did in the first stride
of the canter), I slowed up and said, ‘Whoa, I’ve seen you buck, and now
I’m afraid to move you out,’ she’d have been bucking for sure by now."
But he rode with quiet authority, allowing her to flow freely into the
lope without a touch on the reins. If she was tentative moving up into
the lope, he followed up with the tail of the halter rope on her rump or
on his chaps, meanwhile holding a grip on the nightlatch in case she
brought up more life than expected; the last thing he’d want would be
to ask for forwardness and punish the horse for delivering it, or
clamping up on her, by design or by accident.

Buck repeated lots of work bringing the filly’s head around and
disengaging the hindquarter, especially attentive to the filly’s harder
side. Then he worked patiently for five long minutes while the filly
struggled with the request to sidle close to the fence to pick up Buck’s
flag. Resisting audience offers to hand him the flag, Buck noted that
it is important to identify what is difficult for the horse and work on
it, not sidestep it. He concluded the short ride by swinging the flag
all around her, something most "made" horses would have a problem with!
"There, that’s the frame of mind you should quit with," he said, petting
the relaxed, attentive filly. "That’s enough for today."

DAY THREE

11:00am. The filly looks wistfully over the gate for a few seconds, but
then blends back into the little group, which includes the
battle-scarred bay gelding and the Palomino. Today she allows the
other horses to be by her side, even sniffing each other’s flanks,
without the mare-ish squealing we heard so much of yesterday during her
liberty time awaiting her turn.

In the first minutes on the halter rope, it’s clear the filly has
softened mentally, since yesterday. She carries a friendly expression
instead of a defensive one. 11:30am. After a half-hour of groundwork,
Buck mounts up. 11:33am. They’re in an easy, relaxed lope around the
corral, moving in both directions on a completely loose rein. The speed
is still what most folks would call a hand-gallop, but it’s got a
relaxed flow to it, with a long, reaching stride. None of tense, short
strides or humpy back with which she started yesterday’s ride. "If you
can’t gallop a horse on a loose rein, don’t start colts," Buck said.
"Folks balance on the reins, afraid to go, and they get their horses all
wadded up and not forward."

Since the filly had some exposure to the flag yesterday to gentle her to
it, today it could be effectively used as a tool to help bring the
forequarters across, which in turn lightens the forehand and shifts the
balance over the hocks. Explaining nuance of the flagging technique,
Buck reminded the group that "the timing of the release is critical to
what the horse learns. Whatever the horse is doing when you release,
that’s what the horse is being encouraged to do."

The filly got a relatively short ride today, in deference to the hard
workout she had in the previous two days, and the marvelous attitude
with which she’s working today. "If you didn’t do any more of this, and
put her back out to grow up a bit, this work would probably carry," Buck
said. "But if you could do 10 days, 30 days of this kind of work, then
put her back out doing well mentally, it will really carry."

[Snezewort]

Darryl Wagoner <dar...@ifoh.org> said:

>I must have missed the part where the chokes the horses,

"3:00pm. Buck tells the group that the horses that are started with the

rope around the neck, then moved to the halter, tend to become better
halter-broken than the ones that start right with the halter."

That rope around the neck is a choke rope.

Deb Hendrickson
Duluth, Minnesota
Snez...@aol.com

[Catja Pafort]

First, thanks to Sylvana for the labiorious writing up of the clinic
reports. I may not agree, but they are always giving lots of incentive
for discussion, which cannot be anything but a GOOD THING.

<long snips everywhere> - there is too much that would merit comments,
and neither enough space nor time.

<Introduction>

>[Buck] has formulated a method that is uniquely his own while presenting

>the best of their traditions.

Of course every instructor has a method of their own - because their
experiences are individual. OTOH, a method that has been 'invented'
does not take into account mistakes that have already been made, and
dead ends that have already been explored by others.

>HORSE #1
>
>The 3-year-old European-import Trakhener stallion had five weeks’
>professional training, the owner said, during which time he notched up a
>record of launching his riders airborne with powerful bucks.

<snip>

>Checking out the saddled horse on the halter rope (a 12-foot rope
>attached to a knotted rope halter, with no hardware to break or injure
>the horse),

A knotted rope halter can be quite severe if the horse pulls against
it - not the equipment I would choose for a horse that, by your
description, is not fully halter broke.

>In the next hour, the audience would see an active session of groundwork
>exercises that would at times appear rough, but never rougher than the
>horse pressured himself, and which were required only because the work
>this horse *should* have been getting had been neglected until today.

I think it's never too late to start. If I have a green horse, I have
a green horse, whether he *should* know more at his age, or not. Three
year old is still a baby by my terms, and I would rather go slowly and
go through the whole process of education with a calm horse than try
to 'catch up' on his education.

>(2) Backing on the halter-rope by grasping the left hand, thumb
>pointing down, below the horse’s chin, and holding steady or working the
>halter slightly left and right until the horse yielded his face, or made
>a backward gesture, whereupon Buck would immediately give as well.

Backing is a submissive gesture, which might be expecially beneficial
for a young and boisterous stallion. I prefer NOT to pull on the
halter/reins, but instead use body language, and a schooling whip to
touch the horse on the breast.

>By 10:05, just an
>hour after starting, Buck mounted up in a smooth, flowing move. The big
>chestnut thought momentarily about bucking, just stepped out in one
>humpy stride, but then eased out of it as soon as he realized Buck
>wasn’t going to seize up on him or get in his way. Buck alternately
>"brought up the life" and moved the horse into upward transitions and
>then wound the life down through one-rein stops to the inside of the
>round pen.

Did he first teach the horse about one-rein stops from the ground? One
of the big cautions I heard from a NH/Dressage trainer I respect was
that you should not expect the one-rein stop to work without proper
preparation, on the contrary, that it would be detrimental.
I guess I'm fairly conventional in starting a youngster - first I
would give him the chance to balance under the rider, without asking
for a lot of things, and steadily progressing towards more challenging
rides. Going round the school need not be boring, nor does it mean you
allow your horse's attention to wander.

>DAY TWO
>
>3:30 pm. This powerful stallion shows once again that he has deeply
>ingrained habits of evasiveness, impulsiveness, and brace in most every
>move.

Given his history (professional 'quick' training, cast in the stall,
import) I would first give this horse a general examination for any
latent muscular problems that might cause this behavious and give him
a legitimate reason to evade.

>As a result, this stallion got more groundwork in the snaffle than most
>of the other horses received, important reminders of all the lessons
>that had been started in the halter yesterday. Waiting for the horse to
>yield to the rein in an exercise: "Hold, hold, I’m waiting for him to
>turn loose; that weight should be just the weight of the rein. If I
>released now, I’d be telling him ‘That’s the ticket, brace is what I’m
>looking for.’"

Given the fact that most horses will lean into pressure, holding the
rein until the horse gives seems to me a ticket for trouble. First, is
the horse physically capable of doing the exercise without discofort?
If you do this kind of thing from the ground (aka 'carrot stretches')
you start with a little and progress slowly. This sounds to me as if a
number of steps are skipped.

>HORSE #2

>Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he says
>will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says with a
>mischievous grin. If you ever want to get Buck going on a subject, ask
>him what he thinks about longeing: "I’ve worked with more than 10,000
>horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a horse without losing
>the feel that you can achieve on the end of a halter rope. People get
>them going around, steady, not disrespectful, but tuned out. The very
>greatest dressage masters can longe with quality, but how many of them
>are there?"

Granted you see too many people spinning their horses around
mindlessly, but that doesn't mean one should condemn lungeing as a
tool. To me, it makes little different whether I work with a lunge
(contraint to the inside) or a round pen (constraint to the outside) -
different horses and different goals call for different tools.

There is also an element of exercise and building up muscles in
lungeing that you do not get through in-hand work, and only to a
limited degree in long-lining. (Well, I can't do a medium canter
behind my horse)

>At first blush, the exercise just looks like bringing the horse’s head
>around toward your knee, but there’s a valuable principle and careful
>technique at work. For example, Buck takes up a soft contact, then
>draws; that means there’s no bumping the horse, which would make him
>afraid of the bit. The object is to set up the horse to "just melt into
>the hands." Magically, as the brace leaves the horse’s neck and jaw,

>leaves the horse’s hindquarter and forequarter, the life comes up in his
>feet.

These exercises sound exceedingly familiar, coming from the so called
'french school' of dressage. Are they commonplace in Western Riding or
a specialty of Buck's?

>This principle—having the horse move toward a release rather than moving
>away from pressure--would become clear as Buck worked the horse on the
>"soft feel" exercise. In this exercise, Buck takes up a tactful contact
>and waits while the horse searches for the right answer, which would be
>dropping the chin down and in. He waits. And waits. And waits, much
>longer than most riders would allow the horse to consider things. No
>see-sawing, no pulling, no jiggling, no picking. Just wait, perhaps
>using a little "warmer, warmer" (slight, almost imperceptible release
>when the horse is searching for the right answer), and "colder, colder"
>(firming up a bit when the horse is trying to push forward). Within a
>minute or so (which seems like an eternity when you’re waiting), the
>horse drops his chin and Buck pushes his hands forward cleanly in a
>definite, obvious release. And repeats. And repeats. And repeats,
>until the horse is yielding his chin on a soft, light invitation.

And achieves what? I can't quite see the purpose of this exercise in
connection with a dressage horse. I do not want my horse to yield to a
touch of the bit, I want it to look for a contact. Nor do I think that
you can get the correct head position without first activating the
hindquarters.

>HORSE #3

>12:45 pm. The battle-scarred two-year-old bay gelding had spent the
>lunch break ambling loose in the round pen, carrying his saddle. His
>owners said the only previous colt-starting work he had was being
>saddled. Half-dozing when the group returned, he startled when he woke
>up and realized that he was packing a big wad of leather on his back,
>and launched into bucking. This was an excellent reminder of why Buck
>has us keep our colts busy, busy, busy during our first rides with them,
>never allowing them to wander off mentally.

Which seems to me an excellent reminder of why you should never leave
a horse unsupervised with a saddle, especially a green one. In a
situation like this, without guidance, they can panic easily.

>HORSE #4

>DAY THREE

>During a long and vigorous ride (this horse was sturdy and fit),

He might be 'fit' to run around in a field, but a horse that has been
under saddle half a dozen times does not have the muscle to carry a
rider for long periods of time. The longer you are at it, the less the
learning effect.

>HORSE #5

>Buck worked this one from his saddle horse—which would give him the
>advantage of more presence and leverage while working with this huge and
>disrespectful animal.

Working a green horse from another horse has advantages and
disadvantages. It will have a good example to learn from, but also a
horse (not a human) to focus on - which is one reason why I like the
first few sessions to take place without outside influence.

>"But Buck, doesn’t a horse have just a 15-minute attention span?" came
>the question. "That’s baloney," Buck said. "It’s pretty self-indulgent
>of the human to think that just because the horse isn’t paying attention
>to *them* that he isn’t paying attention. A horse *survives* by paying
>attention. You just have to be more interesting than the things going
>on around them."

Heck, *HUMANS* have short attention spans, as every teacher will
attest. Or anyone who tries to concentrate on a single thing for more
than five minutes in a row.

>Buck reminded the group to be constantly looking for things that make
>the horse uneasy, and instead of subconsciously avoiding those things,
>work on them until they’re resolved. If the horse flinches at having
>the halter-rope swung over the saddle, do it until he doesn’t care.

There are times when other strategies need to be employed - going back
a step or avoiding the scary thing for the moment and working on
general issues. There are horses that won't GET desensitized the way
that is described here, they will just keep fighting, and if they give
in for the moment because they are tired or just bored with fighting
back, they will continue to resist the next day, or the next week. No
learning effect.

>DAY TWO

>Remembering that this horse had a violent distaste for the feel of the
>rope around his hindquarter, or anywhere for that matter, Buck deftly
>roped him around the inside rear pastern. The horse responded with
>swift, aggressive kicks, lightning fast, many in a row. The kind of
>kicks that would kill a person in the wrong place at the wrong time, as
>a farrier would be. "From where I am (15 feet away), that kick is no
>big deal, I’m not impressed. But if one of those kicks caught you on
>the head, that would be pretty impressive."

The sentence I am missing is that a horse like that should never be
worked without a hard hat. In any case, a violent reaction like that
hints to me that a step in between, or several, are missing.

>The horse (who was
>bucking so violently yesterday that you could hear the swish of dirt
>hitting the arena ceiling) looked considerably quieter today, but still
>kicked up a bit when he was swacked with the tail of the halter rope, or
>took a few humpy strides. "I’ll just hurry him through it," Buck said.
>"Telling him, ‘If you want to get away from pressure, you can’t do it by
>bucking.’"

But at the same time telling the horse that bucking is an option he
can try. Which may be fine for a good rider like Buck, but desastrous
for a less secure rider.

>HORSE #6

>"When they’re taken away from their mothers, we take on responsibility
>as their keeper. Do your jobs, you guys." Buck noted that when he
>implemented the new clinic format, in which only six horses are in the
>Colt-Starting, all of them worked by Buck, he hoped that folks would
>really do their homework and bring him horses they were really proud of,
>with the intent of seeing how far they could go. But in fact people
>have been bringing him their biggest problems.

They want to have the best deal for their money, don't they? If they
could do it themselves, they wouldn't look for help - and most people
don't realize they have a problem with their horse until it's a BIG
problem, and obviously beyond them.

>DAY TWO

>Buck started the day by desensitizing this flighty filly all over her
>body, patting her with cupped hands across her back until she stopped
>flinching and humping up. By cupping the hands, the movement doesn’t
>sting the horse, just makes a noise.

The important bit about this is the patting - because unlike a hand,
or rug, or rope that stays in place, small, light pats don't give the
horse anything to brace against. This is also a very useful technique
for horses that are girthy or ticklish under their belly.

Thanks again for your time and effort,

Catja

--
Catja Pafort
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~cap96>

"Reality is for those who lack imagination."
(CMNewell on rec.eq)

[Laura Friedman]

Snezewort wrote:
>
> Darryl Wagoner <dar...@ifoh.org> said:
>
> >I must have missed the part where the chokes the horses,
>

> That rope around the neck is a choke rope.
>

He throws a regular rope around their neck, which stay loose and
tightens only if they pull away. He used the rope to choke down only
one horse at my clinic, which seemed to be a rare example. Normally the
horses that are roped are NOT choked down.

Saying that anytime Buck throws a rope around a horses head it is to
choke the horse is like saying that anytime a whip is used it is to beat
a horse.

I'm not going to argue whether Buck is too rough, not a good trainer, or
works too fast. I just want to be sure that those who are making those
judgements have the correct facts.

Laura

[Laura Friedman]

Catja Pafort wrote:

>
Sylvana wrote:
> >This principle—having the horse move toward a release rather than moving
> >away from pressure--would become clear as Buck worked the horse on the
> >"soft feel" exercise. In this exercise, Buck takes up a tactful contact
> >and waits while the horse searches for the right answer, which would be
> >dropping the chin down and in. He waits. And waits. And waits, much
> >longer than most riders would allow the horse to consider things. No
> >see-sawing, no pulling, no jiggling, no picking. Just wait, perhaps
> >using a little "warmer, warmer" (slight, almost imperceptible release
> >when the horse is searching for the right answer), and "colder, colder"
> >(firming up a bit when the horse is trying to push forward). Within a
> >minute or so (which seems like an eternity when you’re waiting), the
> >horse drops his chin and Buck pushes his hands forward cleanly in a
> >definite, obvious release. And repeats. And repeats. And repeats,
> >until the horse is yielding his chin on a soft, light invitation.
>
> And achieves what? I can't quite see the purpose of this exercise in
> connection with a dressage horse. I do not want my horse to yield to a
> touch of the bit, I want it to look for a contact. Nor do I think that
> you can get the correct head position without first activating the
> hindquarters.
>

Well, I'll try to answer this one, since I've been fooling around with
this technique.

I only use this technique, which I really consider to be a cue to tell
the horse to flex at the pole, when Squigs gets excited and telescopes
her head into the air. She has learned to drop her head in response to
the steady pressure, which I find relaxes her and gets her mind back
onto me (even if I have to do it a few times). The reason she can
differentiate this "cue" with the usual contact is that it is more
pressure - not a yank - just a tad more pull.

It has not effected my ability to otherwise keep contact with her
mouth. In fact, I posted a few quotes a while back from Col. Ffrench
Blake's dressage book in which he recommended the exact same exercise!

I understand that my use is a bastardization of Buck's technique, since
as a western rider, he does want the horse to always move away from bit
pressure. I assume this is in preparation for carrying a spade bit whose
weight will tell the horse where to hold his head.

Laura & Ms. Squiggles

[AlaTmPnr]

>> I just want to be sure that those who are making those judgements have the
correct facts.<<

It appears that facts, like statistics, are what the person, presenting
them, makes of them. Ya'll are truly the spin doctors of the horse world.
I am amazed at the vitriolity of the attacks against a man(Brannaman) that
ya'll apparently have never even met. I would at least meet the man before
casting him out in sack cloth and ashes.
In a day where lip chains, twitches, war bridles and all the other
paraphenalia associated with convincing a horse to cooperate with us, a kinder
a gentler way is to be embraced not ripped to shreds.
If a person finds someone they can follow to a better understanding of the
horse then let them go. Whether it is Parellli, Brannaman or someone else, it
will certainly be no worse than your own particular brand of hell/heaven that
you will end up with.
These discussions started off with a refreshing repartee and some
discerning knowledge of horses. It was quite enjoyable. Now ya'll have lowered
yourselves to the level of chickens squabbling in the dust and it is not a
pretty sight. But if that is where ya'll are comfortable, then enjoy the dust
bath.LOL
When ya'll can argue from knowledge and not just your interpretation of
the facts then I guess I will start reading again.
This is me sitting on the sidelines waiting for the dust to settle.

Bill

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
6qgqjv$4...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
Lfri...@nospam.net wrote:

(snipped parts)

> Catja Pafort wrote:
> >
> Sylvana wrote:

> > >This principle—having the horse move toward a release rather than moving
> > >away from pressure--would become clear as Buck worked the horse on the
> > >"soft feel" exercise. In this exercise, Buck takes up a tactful contact
> > >and waits while the horse searches for the right answer, which would be
> > >dropping the chin down and in.

> > And achieves what? I can't quite see the purpose of this exercise in

> > connection with a dressage horse. I do not want my horse to yield to a
> > touch of the bit, I want it to look for a contact. Nor do I think that
> > you can get the correct head position without first activating the
> > hindquarters.
> >

> Well, I'll try to answer this one, since I've been fooling around with
> this technique.
>
> I only use this technique, which I really consider to be a cue to tell
> the horse to flex at the pole, when Squigs gets excited and telescopes
> her head into the air. She has learned to drop her head in response to
> the steady pressure, which I find relaxes her and gets her mind back
> onto me (even if I have to do it a few times).

This technique is called "plow rein" in which one
simply holds the pressure until the horse finds
the particular spot where the pressure isn't. It is
useful to teach yieldig of the head, neck and
shoulders which leads to turning on fore/
haunches/sidepass/turnback/rollback
maneuvers.

The tie down, martingales and the like do basically
the same thing, only instead of the horse finding
the spot, the equipment does it for the horse.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots)

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

[Snezewort]

Laura Friedman <Lfri...@nospam.net> said:

>He throws a regular rope around their neck, which stay loose and
>tightens only if they pull away.

Or if he pulls on them, or drives them away, both of which he did to the
greenie I saw.

>He used the rope to choke down only
>one horse at my clinic, which seemed to be a rare example. Normally the
>horses that are roped are NOT choked down.
>

Don't let Brannaman define what he's doing for you.

The choke rope is a very severe correction, whether the horse is pushed to the
point of gasping for air or not. The view that the choke rope was among the
most severe, last-stage, all other efforts have failed methods of getting
through to the horse was pretty universal among the old cowboys that I read in
my youth.

Were Brannaman starting his lead line lessons with a chain through the mouth,
the severity of his methods would be readily apparent to most people. The
choke rope is unfamiliar, and folks are all too willing to believe what the
critter with language is telling them about it, rather than listening to the
horse.

[AlaTmPnr]

Jane,

>>This technique is called "plow rein" in which one simply holds the pressure
until the horse finds the particular spot where the pressure isn't. It is
useful to teach yieldig of the head, neck and shoulders which leads to turning
on fore/haunches/sidepass/turnback/rollback
maneuvers.

The tie down, martingales and the like do basically the same thing, only
instead of the horse finding the spot, the equipment does it for the horse.<<

Hmmmmm I dont know where you got your training but a plowrein is not" holding
a waiting for the horse to find the release". It is drawing the horses head in
the direction of travel and giving impulsion by whatever means to get there and
that is a "western" expression not a horseman's expression.

And to my knowledge tie-downs martingales, standing or running, replace bad
hands..... they dont teach anything other than for the horse to depend on them.
It is an equipment fix for a rider problem.

Bill

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
199808081628...@ladder03.ne
ws.aol.com>,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
199808081628...@ladder03.ne
ws.aol.com>,
alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> Jane,
>
> >>This technique is called "plow rein" in which one simply holds the pressure
> until the horse finds the particular spot where the pressure isn't. It is
> useful to teach yieldig of the head, neck and shoulders which leads to turning
> on fore/haunches/sidepass/turnback/rollback
> maneuvers.
>
> The tie down, martingales and the like do basically the same thing, only
> instead of the horse finding the spot, the equipment does it for the horse.<<
>
> Hmmmmm I dont know where you got your training but a plowrein is not" holding
> a waiting for the horse to find the release". It is drawing the horses head in
> the direction of travel and giving impulsion by whatever means to get there and
> that is a "western" expression not a horseman's expression.

If you want to use it that way. I'll give an example.
I hold reins wide (outside) at the level the horse
is currently holding its head. If the horse lowers
its head, there is no pressure, hence the reward
for lowering head.

Plow reins to me is anytime one holds the reins
wide. And it doesn't matter to me if you call it
western or horseman. It's what is does that
counts. I don't use the plow rein method to pull,
perhaps others do, but I don't.

> And to my knowledge tie-downs martingales, standing or running, replace bad
> hands..... they dont teach anything other than for the horse to depend on them.
> It is an equipment fix for a rider problem.

Sounds like what I basically said only I didn't call
it a rider problem, though I would agree with
that.

down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots)

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT]

Laura wrote:

>> And achieves what? I can't quite see the purpose of this exercise in
>> connection with a dressage horse. I do not want my horse to yield to a
>> touch of the bit, I want it to look for a contact. Nor do I think that
>> you can get the correct head position without first activating the
>> hindquarters.
>>

>Well, I'll try to answer this one, since I've been fooling around with
>this technique.
>
>I only use this technique, which I really consider to be a cue to tell
>the horse to flex at the pole, when Squigs gets excited and telescopes
>her head into the air. She has learned to drop her head in response to
>the steady pressure, which I find relaxes her and gets her mind back

>onto me (even if I have to do it a few times). The reason she can
>differentiate this "cue" with the usual contact is that it is more
>pressure - not a yank - just a tad more pull.

Thanks for the explanation, Laura! My cue for stopping a horse from hollowing
is somewhat different - a touch of leg applied to mostly the inside hind.
When I use a leg aid, I ask the horse to activate that hindleg and stretch over
the topline. It is this 'stretching' mechanism that I need to applied should my
horse get over the bit. The better your horse is trained (building up topline
muscles) the less incentive he will have to hollow and use the muscled on the
bottom of his neck.

>It has not effected my ability to otherwise keep contact with her
>mouth. In fact, I posted a few quotes a while back from Col. Ffrench
>Blake's dressage book in which he recommended the exact same exercise!

Well, a lot of the NH techniques and exercises seem to have originated outside
the Western (as in 'Western riding') world, so it doesn't surprise me a lot. I
find it interesting, although I'm still not convinced. ;-)

Catja

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On 9 Aug 1998 14:27:30 GMT, ca...@aber.ac.uk (CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT)
wrote:
snip

>>It has not effected my ability to otherwise keep contact with her
>>mouth. In fact, I posted a few quotes a while back from Col. Ffrench
>>Blake's dressage book in which he recommended the exact same exercise!

>Well, a lot of the NH techniques and exercises seem to have originated outside
>the Western (as in 'Western riding') world, so it doesn't surprise me a lot. I
>find it interesting, although I'm still not convinced. ;-)

Based on the here and there comments I pick up from reading Western
Horseman and the like, my suspicion is that there's been a lot of
cross-communication between Western trainers and French and
Ibero-Spanish dressage trainers over the years, perhaps more than was
common on the Eastern Seaboard. Fillis is referred to, as is Baucher
upon occasion. And when I had a chat with one of the Racinet clinic
organizers, her comment was that she thought French classical dressage
came very close to Western equitation in various details...and she
came to dressage from Western riding. She also remembers reading bits
and pieces here and there about French dressage folks being cited as
references in Western Horseman.

Despite what a lot of folks want to believe about ye Olde Wild West,
there was a lot more sophistication around and about hereabouts during
the late nineteenth and early twentieth century (between the Civil War
and WW I). A lot of Europeans either came to the West to raise horses
for various reasons--polo ponies, getting away from Ye Olde Country,
etc, etc. Plus there were various Cavalry posts around and about.

It's not unfeasible that cowboys and trainers in the Western US were
exposed to methods entirely different from those common among the hunt
seat riders on the Eastern Seaboard, methods which might have entirely
bypassed the East entirely. Considering that a lot of the old gold
towns had lots of money to burn, and cash to attract various folks,
it's entirely likely. There's a few sleepy old towns in Eastern
Oregon (near Dorrance's old stomping grounds, for one) that once upon
a time had very nice opera houses and were part of a major continental
tour. No reason why good horse trainers and methods from Europe
didn't also make appearances.

Of course, there are those who think the world rises and sets on
certain places in North Carolina, and those of us in the Wild West who
haven't attended Clinics Put On By Certain Gurus have no independent
exposure to Certain Concepts...but that's just stuffy-mindedness (and,
perhaps, a little bit of jealousy that they didn't get the early
exposure....<wink>).

Snittily snobbish in Ye Olde West.....;->

jrw

[Laura Friedman]

CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT wrote:
>
> Laura wrote:

> >I only use this technique, which I really consider to be a cue to tell
> >the horse to flex at the pole, when Squigs gets excited and telescopes
> >her head into the air. She has learned to drop her head in response to
> >the steady pressure, which I find relaxes her and gets her mind back
> >onto me (even if I have to do it a few times). The reason she can
> >differentiate this "cue" with the usual contact is that it is more
> >pressure - not a yank - just a tad more pull.
>
> Thanks for the explanation, Laura! My cue for stopping a horse from hollowing
> is somewhat different - a touch of leg applied to mostly the inside hind.
> When I use a leg aid, I ask the horse to activate that hindleg and stretch over
> the topline. It is this 'stretching' mechanism that I need to applied should my
> horse get over the bit.

I completely agree with your method. It is how I try to get Squigs
traveling correctly in most circumstances. The reason I've been fooling
around with this "contact cue" is for very extreme situations in which
she telescopes her neck - usually when spooking or when she is agitated
at seeing horses in the distance.

My trainer wants me to push her forward in these situations - which I
think is probably the correct thing to do. So why don't I do it? Well,
the truth is that I'm afraid of pushing her forward when she's spooking
or agitated, as she would probably interpret this as a sign to move
forward more quickly than I'd like. Even more than an alarmed horse, I
fear an alarmed horse who thinks she's being told to run away. And as
slowing and stopping has been a bit of a problem (she's not an all out
bolter, but she is a lean into the bit and do an extended trot then try
switching to a disunited canter), I'd rather have her halted or walking
rather than moving out more quickly, even if that quicker gate would be
less hollow. Am I making sense?

So what I do is ask for the lowering of the poll a la Brannaman and Col.
Ffrench Blake, and if the terrain permits, do serpentines, leg yeilds,
and the like until her brain is back on me instead of the scary thing.
If the terrain doesn't permit, I find that asking for the lowered poll
itself helps get her brain back on me - she'll turn an ear back at me,
drop her head, lift her head again, then drop it again on cue (we
usually have to do it a few times), then relax herself (either as a
result of the flexed poll or of being forced to think about me instead
of scary demon). Only when she's quiet and relaxed to I want to
continue down the trail.

Laura

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
35cdd25e...@news.aracnet.com>,
jrw*********@********aracnet.com
(Joyce Reynolds-Ward) wrote:

(snipped parts)

>my suspicion is that there's been a lot of
> cross-communication between Western trainers and French and
> Ibero-Spanish dressage trainers over the years, perhaps more than was
> common on the Eastern Seaboard.

You don't even have to be suspicious. The western
horseman (original) was the vaquero who
combined all those spanish-moorish skills with a
smattering a french and a few original skills
needed on the range.

> It's not unfeasible that cowboys and trainers in the Western US were
> exposed to methods entirely different from those common among the hunt
> seat riders on the Eastern Seaboard, methods which might have entirely
> bypassed the East entirely.

The Hunt stuff was probably from the stuffy
british! <g> They hated the french ya know.

>Considering that a lot of the old gold

> towns had lots of money to burn, and cash to attract various folks, . . .

> that once upon
> a time had very nice opera houses and were part of a major continental
> tour.

Just about every town that wanted to be
considered decent, had some type of playhouse that
on occasion had opera singers from europe. Even
Judge Roy Bean's town had a saloon that tripled as
a courtroom and playhouse.

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>An Account of ... [Sylvana's ego masturbation, Ed.]

>If you’ve seen "The Horse Whisperer," you have a very brief look at the

>work of "natural horsemanship" trainers ...

Your substantiation for that would be _?_

Hint: it's just a fictional film, Sack,
it's not supposed to define reality.

Is it too late for you to get that refund?

>...based on the vaquero tradition ...

Your substantiation for that would be _?_

Hint: it's not, your confusion notwithstanding.

>...a humane, problem-solving system ...

Choking down tame colts is nothing of the sort.

>... roots in European dressage from centuries ago...

Your substantiation for that would be _?_

Hint: you're just lying, again, Sylvana.

>... the Disney movie version...

Your substantiation for that would be _?_

Hint: you're just full of shit, Sylvana.

>...formulated a method that is uniquely his own...

Nah, lots of incompetents beat up on horses.

>...Buck worked six horses in the Colt-Starting
>session...

Charlatans routinely use confusion to make horses
look more gentle than they really are. That this
dupes you over and over again is nothing for you
to keep crowing about, for cryin' out loud.

>... Buck’s special brand of lightness and feel...

He jerks his own finished horse in the mouth.

>I ... rode a green homebred TB/QH cross, "Chance," in the
>three-hour afternoon Horsemanship sessions...

In what way, if any, had you prepared this horse
to be chased around for three hours under you?

> ... on a horse
>that has just started serious work a few months ago...

In other words, you didn't have the poor horse
at all ready for such exhausting effort.

>...I hated to have to go back to work after long and
>indulgent days in the saddle...

The poor horse was relieved, though. Did you
check him at all for the repercussions, or
just forget about him? Never mind, the
answer to that is readily apparent.

>As an added plus, I saw a lot of old friends and made new friends, such

>... [namedropping blather deleted]

>If you’re interested in hearing what goes on in a typical Buck Brannaman

>colt-starting clinic ...

I've seen, with my own 20/10 eyes, what your brutality
guru does in the colt-starting clinic he sells on video,
and while I truly wanted to see a good trainer, it was
only a rough, self-righteous showoff to be seen there.
He choked a tame little colt and tried to claim the
poor little thing had it coming to him. He hit and
kicked and whapped horses senselessly where gentle
and subtle alternatives exist.

>... check out my six-part series ...

It's rude to substitute multiple postings for one long
dribble of drivel such as yours, here, but no one else
is obligated to clean up after you, slovenly Sack.

>of posts on the
>subject. One important caveat, however!

The fact that you're full of shit basically covers it.

> ...act fast...

This newsgroup isn't for commercial advertising, and
I don't appreciate you trying to sell your schlock.
Please consult your ISP's terms of service to get
more information on proper uses thereof.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Partial tally of Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith's lies of record:*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Her "permanently crippled" horse was claimed to be "sound",
and misunderstood fencing material was claimed to be cause.

A week was claimed to be actually only four days in length;
turnout was claimed to be able to replace real conditioning.

Her "too small" pony was claimed to be fit to be ridden hard
by a "too big" rider (same pony now being mysteriously injured
and subjected to confinement in excess of the 'explanation', as
well as permitted to misbehave toward the staff of the stable).

Neurectomy was claimed to be 'treatment' for lameness suitable
for a horse to be subsequently used in the context of showing.

Bucking was claimed to be a valid option for a trainee horse.

Chasing, hitting, kicking, and choking were claimed to be
acceptable because the perpetrator says pretty words too.

Myriad miscellaneous additional lies include repetition
of the set concocted by the criminally negligent loser
who got a horse abused to get a child bucked off, as
well as others far too numerous to list, and more
being added with ongoing additional inanities ...

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>A Synopsis of [Sylvana's ego masturbation, Ed.]

>...Six Installments...

Please learn how to limit the number of your
wastes of wiretime by not repeating headers
for the same article item. Do consult the
newsgroups information your ISP suggests.
Proper editing would immediately and most
thoroughly solve that problem, as well.

>... for horses (colts or fillies) to be started,
>restarted, or refined by Buck...

Sorry, but chased, hit, slapped, struck, kicked,
yanked and choked is not really refinement, your
abject ignorance on the subject notwithstanding.

>...as best I can recall ...

You forget your own lies, how reliable could you be?

>... He was beefy and powerful for a 3-year-old, and he
>needed to get going on a career soon...

Your substantiation for that would be _?_

Hint: nothing about your statement could pertain to
good horse training in any way.

>...you should be able to catch your horse out in the open...

Well, duh. How much did you shell out for this?

>.... Buck immediately pinpointed the source of the horse’s bucking ...

He's a veterinarian, too! Wow, what a renaissance man.

>In the next hour, the audience would see an active session of groundwork

That's the euphemism du jour for chasing horses hard.

>exercises that would at times appear rough, but never rougher than the
>horse pressured himself,

This is just blaming the horse, the hallmark of ignorance.

Hint: =humans= put the horse in the pressured situation.

> and which were required only because the work
>this horse *should* have been getting had been neglected until today.

This is just blaming the horse, the hallmark of ignorance.

Hint: good training doesn't pile abuse on abuse.

>...but not a
>horse such as this, who has some experience defeating the human...

This is just blaming the horse, the hallmark of ignorance.

Hint: history doesn't justify the rough rush.

>... but

>with this one, who has already scored on a few people, we might have to

>ride a buck...

This is just blaming the horse, the hallmark of ignorance.

Hint: it's deceit to build egotistical suspense.

>... "Cornering the horse"

Coercion.

If you're into that, take up cutting and keep it to cattle.

>... then "breaking over" the hindquarters...
>followed by the forequarters, and repeating in the other direction...

How would repeatedly and hastily doing this to a three
year old colt benefit his soft little hocks?

>... Horses such as this one are inclined to bolt through

>the "narrow" of the eight, and can be discouraged from impulsiveness by

>disengaging their hindquarters...

Thus wrecking the horse for dressage as fast as possible.

> The goal is to have the horse travel
>non-impulsively

Only to the ignorant, like you, Sylvana.

>...The bigger objective is to

>have the horse realize that there’s a connection between the halter-rope

>and his feet...

Yeah, Buck likes to rope their feet and yank on them.

He could do an already-injured horse some serious harm.

> ...you’re in danger on this horse," Buck said...

This is just blaming the horse, the hallmark of ignorance.

Hint: it's deceit to build egotistical suspense.

>(2) Backing on the halter-rope by grasping the left hand, thumb
>pointing down, below the horse’s chin, and holding steady or working the

>halter slightly left and right until the horse yielded his face...

Yanking isn't good horse training, either, Sylvana.

If you gain more experience with them, you may learn
that they're sensitive, you need not work so hard.

>... backing
>circles...

A colt with a bucking problem quite likely due to
pain from injury doesn't really benefit from being
beaten up, no matter how nice it'd look to you.

> Something really changes in the horse, a lightness...

That's the euphemism for 'beaten into submission'.

>... an
>hour after starting, Buck mounted up ...

The horse is so winded and sore it gives up, and so
now the 'hero' courageously confronts the enemy.

Dr Linfoot did range broncs in fifteen minutes, and
didn't do anything rough to them, either.

Just because you've been a mindless sucker so far
doesn't mean you'd need to remain that way.

>... Buck alternately "brought up the life" ...

That's the euphemism for 'kicking and whapping'.

>then wound the life down through one-rein stops ...

That's the euphemism for 'jerk in the mouth'.

>... This powerful stallion shows once again that he has deeply
>ingrained habits of evasiveness, impulsiveness, and brace...

Try to accuse the horse, again, why don't you.

He was stiffened and clumsy from previous abuse.

He wasn't retaining anything positive, either.

>As a result, this stallion got more groundwork ...

That's the euphemism for 'chased hard', again.

>... Waiting for the horse to
>yield to the rein ...

Is just putting the horse behind the bit.

>... he’s looking to Buck ...

They tend to keep an eye on predators.

>It is hard to create for readers a picture of the nonstop pattern of
>activity

Nah: picture a rough, crude showoff chasing
horses until they're tired enough to beat.

I bet he was wearing real fancy chaps, too.

>, the endless series of requests and rewards...

That's the euphemism for 'mindless repetitive
hitting, kicking, and whapping'

>...explanation of what is going on and why...

I'll help you with that, Sylvana: you're being
suckered into blaming your horse even more, as
you are selfish and don't really care enough.

> But with a horse like this,

>you can’t be too active ...

Aren't you referring to a three year old colt
just coming off a serious injury which included
broken bones in his neck, according to you?

>Today this stallion would get used to the flag,

That's the euphemism for 'give up and take whapping'.

Sylvana, good riders move their horses' feet by being
competent with their own bodies, not by hitting.

>"This is no bronc, he’s just an undisciplined horse," Buck said,

>dismounting after a 40-minute ride...

Poor disappointed Buck. Was this trainee really ready
for forty minutes of being run out of wind under weight?

>... the young stallion stands calmly...

That's the euphemism for 'one poor tired cayuse'.

> ... complacent eyes...

That's just Sylvana's confusion being seen, yet again.

>"Buck, how long should you have to work a horse like this?" an auditor
>asked. "How long? How long? You want me to give some complete set of

>directions like a Train Your Horse calendar?" Buck retorted...

He's the hurry up 'n rough 'em up guy, why should he be
expected to tell people about slow, gradual progress, eh?

>The chestnut stallion is not whinnying at the other horses today...

He's probably quite sore and unwilling to be made more so.

>For the next hour, Buck would work the horse through an intricate dance

>of movements...

That's the euphemism for 'jerking the vulnerable horse around'.

>Backing circles. Walking tight serpentines. Ten-foot circles, changing

>the arc through the center of the circle...

Three year old colt, recently injured ...

> Wiggly lines that looked like

>aimless wandering... Loping him until the trot-to-canter
>transitions were smooth...

Three year old colt, recently injured ...

> with the colt’s ears forward...

To hostlers with knowledge and experience,
that's not something desireable in training.

>The pace was brisk, but Buck noted that with this horse, he’s not just
>starting him, he’s catching him up on things that have been missing and
>should have been done before now. And only when the pressure is turned
>up a notch do you discover braces that might not appear when the ride is

>less demanding...

He's forcing the horse into resistances and
blaming the animal for its prior connections.

>"Take the horse to the verge of trouble ..."

No: protect the horse and free him from trouble.

A competent herd leader does no less.

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>A Synopsis of ... [Syl the shill]

>Second of Six Installments ...
>This is the first in a six-part series ...

Well, Sylvana, you contradict yourself already
in the preliminary blather section. Can't you
make up your mind which number this is?

>... a taste of what it felt
>like to ride a horse that Buck has refined...

Horses beaten into submission feel refined only
to those who don't know any better.

>Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he says

>will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says ...

He's ignorant of the training tool, but then
again it's not as easily used to hit and kick
the horse directly.

> ... "I’ve worked with more than 10,000
>horses ...

Not one of which has done anything of value
attributable to him ...

>... Buck mounted up pretty
>quickly ...

Yeah, he's in a hurry, all right.

>This principle—having the horse move toward a release ...

Puts horses behind the bit, ruining them.

>... Buck noted that
>he pressured the horse ...

Maybe someday he'll learn how wrong that is.

>... That means that when asking

>the horse to move forward, for example, the "good deal" isn’t a light

>squeeze, it’s sitting a little more lightly in the saddle...

No, it isn't. He should get riding lessons.

>... Buck repeats the full range of familiar ...

What a limited repertoire of mere roughness.

>To make this horse’s upward transitions more lively, Buck did many, many
>transitions from a back… first backing with a soft feel, then moving

>crisply forward into a walk, jog, or lope...

This isn't appropriate for a young horse
not properly conditioned to it, at all.

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>A Synopsis of ... [Syl's stupidity, as usual]

>Third of Six Installments

>This is the first in a six-part series

Gee, Sylvana, can't you figure out which one
is which here, either?

>... The battle-scarred two-year-old bay gelding ...

Portrayed as an adversary to overcome ...

>...he startled when he woke

>up and realized that he was packing a big wad of leather on his back,

>and launched into bucking...

Which only means somebody seriously messed up
by not making him aware of it at the time it
was placed on him. Sneaking isn't training.

>...Buck
>has us keep our colts busy, busy, busy...

Because you can only deal with them tired.

>... the hindquarters disengaging ...

Please trouble yourself to do the necessary
research and discern why this is just wrong.

>For this colt, Buck determined that backing would be a key exercise ...

It's all he does. No wonder those horses
never manage to do anything for anyone.

>especially backing circles...

The greatest skill of the incompetent rider.

>... enduring hostile looks
>and squeals from the filly...

Oh, let's make her out to be the devil, too.

>... Buck said... you’d have to let go of the whip in order to rub and pet the
>horse...

Now =that's= clumsy and uncoordinated.

>... at times the colt was a little cranky...

Let's blame the horse for being sore and tired, now.

>...Seems odd, does it, that the horse gets
>more and more pleasant the more actively he is worked and challenged? ...

You've just confused 'pleasant' for winded and tired.

>you’d be swinging that stick ...

No, I'm not that unnatural, sorry.

>... The
>bay colt is standing with his head lowered...

The ignorant suckers want to pretend he's not exhausted.

>... you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
>colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment. That’s the
>goal."

So why can't he approach that himself?

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>Fourth of Six Installments ...
>This is the first in a six-part series ...

Still can't count, eh?

No wonder you have no idea how few minutes
it takes to run a horse out of wind, making
him give up without any confidence gained.

>The compact Palomino Quarterhorse gelding had about six rides under him,

(This one was probably only a long yearling.)

>... "Somebody’s taught this
>horse how to move into pressure," Buck noted ...

Gee, those you'd claim were his teachers say that
horses are made like that in the first place.

Can't you people keep track of your stories at all?

>... get a taste of the full repertoire ...

Chased, hit, kicked, yanked, etcetera etcetera etcetera.

>"Cornering" the horse is ...

You already described that form of predation, before.

>The evasiveness that caused the horse to run backward and rear also made

>him a problem for haltering ...

Don't blame the horse for being evasive when it's afraid.

>"...him irritated."

Don't accuse the horse of being angry when it's mishandled.

>...take the
>hindquarter out of gear...

Big mistake.

>... shut him down ...

Wrong.

Hint: the answer is to get the horse ahead of the leg, instead.

>The now-familiar groundwork was repeated with the bridle to get the

>horse used to pressure from the bit...

Pressure =from= the bit is bad riding form.

> ... Buck
>pointed out that the horse moved stiffly behind...

The poor thing was likely sore and stoved up.

>..." He figures that if he just

>leans on me long enough I’ll give up and let go."

Don't blame the horse for being trained to pull.

>Within minutes, the Palomino ... used ...
>... to give the bay horse... disconcerting ...
>he squirts off bucking...

Someday you may realize how worthless that was.

>... the camera crews ...
>rarely show up for Day Three...

Non ignorant people can only stand so much.

>... Buck kept up a
>nonstop narration about the obsolescence of longeing...

His ignorance must be admirable to you. How sad.

>During a long and vigorous ride ...
>...much of the time that Buck was loping, the reins were looped ...

He was in a little pen, so what?

In what way can you verify that the horse so used
would in some way be in fact fit for such use?

>... while he used the flag, or the

>coiled-up lariat, or the tail end of the halter rope to control

>direction...

"Turn or I'll hit you" isn't good training, either.

[look@this]

Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>A Synopsis of ...[Syl's typical stupidity]

>Fifth of Six Installments
>This is the first in a six-part series...

Sylvana, do you feel no personal responsibility
for your efforts at all, with writing or horses?

>... a two-year-old... but he was as big as ...

That does =not= make the horse capable of being
chased and ridden hard, no matter how easily
confused the inexperienced may be by size.

>... The disrespectful...

Oh, now what a terrible adversary for your 'hero'!

>Buck worked this one from his saddle horse—which would give him the
>advantage of more presence and leverage

Good trainers work bigger tougher horses without
the 'advantage' of such leverage.

>... huge and
>disrespectful animal...

Oh, now what a terrible adversary for your 'hero'!

> Buck roped him around the neck ...

All the better to force any excuse to choke down.

>he resorted to trying to bite Buck in the leg...

How very inattentive of the handling.

>The next hour was quite active for horse and handler

How utterly inefficient for/of both.

>... "I don’t like to see a horse go through this trouble," Buck
>said, mid-process...

He just doesn't have a clue how to do better for
the poor beast.

>By this time the horse was yielding softly to the feel of the lariat
>across the bridge of his nose

You have no idea what you're saying. A lariat
is =rough= and =hurts= the sensitive skin on
the horse's face.

>Buck ... allowed

>the horse to try to buck his way out of the saddle for 5-6 turns of the

>round pen...

What a terrible mistake. I'd never want anyone
to do such a thing with a horse of mine, or for
that matter one belonging to anyone else.

> Buck roped him again...

So much work just to get a tired horse to give up,
instead of doing it right easily and getting value.

>DAY TWO
>The big TB/Percheron cross had been loafing at liberty in the round pen
>with his saddle, awaiting his turn, but suddenly broke out a’bucking

>with big heaving grunts, for no apparent reason...

Association with what he was trained to do before is
a readily-apparent reason, to the knowing trainer.

>...Buck deftly
>roped him around the inside rear pastern...
>..."From where I am (15 feet away), that kick is no

>big deal, I’m not impressed. But if one of those kicks caught you on
>the head, that would be pretty impressive."

Oh, wow, doesn't he look brave to the dude/ttes now!

It's too bad Buck can't train a horse to stand with
a leg up for the farrier without a rope. I know some
little 4h girls who could show him how, though.

>... a lot of
>breaking the hindquarters over...

How 'nice' for an unstarted two year old.

>... Buck is ...into the saddle... they’re jogging and loping
>around the round pen ...still

>kicked up a bit when he was swacked with the tail of the halter rope, or

>took a few humpy strides. "I’ll just hurry him through it," Buck said...

It's a shame he was in too great a hurry
to train the poor young thing gently.

>The ride looks nice to us...

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

>... Buck could send a coil travelling

>swiftly down the length of the rope to catch the horse on the side of

>the chin...

Hitting horses isn't good training.

>...The method was necessitated ...

Only by ignorance of better ones.

>... rank, spoiled youngsters ...
>... Buck is in the saddle, immediately working on bringing the
>head around, one-rein stops, and all the now-familiar repertoire...

Chase, hit, kick, yank, choke, etcetera etcetera etcetera.

>...loping big loops around the round pen...

On horses not old enough or conditioned enough ...

>In the course of a hour-long ride, Buck works through hundreds of
>movements, with special emphasis on breaking over the hindquarters in

>one-rein stops...

Making matters worse for the unready victims.

>... the ferocious ...

Those horses were nothing of the sort.

[Eiyan]

Thanks for the series of posts about the BB clinic, Sylvana. I enjoyed reading
them.
Ann

[Jim & Laura Behning]

look@this,willya.now (Muleskinner) wrote:

Sylvana had paraphrased Buck as saying at a recent clinic:

>>... you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
>>colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment. That’s the
>>goal."

>So why can't he approach that himself?

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
that, folks, is very very sad.

Laura Behning
morgans at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~morgans/Laura.htm

[Laura Friedman]

Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>
> I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
> he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
> that, folks, is very very sad.
>

What's sadder to me is how many people out there allow their horses to
get to such a horrible state. How can you have a two year old, which
you claim to handle, that has as little manners as the horses in Buck's
clinic? And if you don't know how to handle a youngster, why buy or
breed one in the first place?

What are these people thinking?

Laura & Squiggles (shaking her mane in astonishment)

[Jim & Laura Behning]

Laura Friedman <Lfri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>>
>> I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
>> he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
>> that, folks, is very very sad.
>>
>What's sadder to me is how many people out there allow their horses to
>get to such a horrible state. How can you have a two year old, which
>you claim to handle, that has as little manners as the horses in Buck's
>clinic? And if you don't know how to handle a youngster, why buy or
>breed one in the first place?

Folks overestimate their abilities and/or knowledge, or just get in
over their heads. That's not meant as an excuse for such, BTW. But it
is somewhat more innocent than deliberately provoking horses just to
make money, when the same result can be reached in a slower, quieter
but less spectacular manner, which he even admits himself. Remember

"you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start

colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment." No
entertainment = less money. For that matter, why should starting colts
be seen as "entertainment", anyways? I thought we were doing this for
the *horse's* sake.

And FWIW, I don't believe that all of the horses in Buck's clinics are
in actuality so far gone. I do think that he makes them *appear* so-
and that his verbal "explanations" for their behavior also gives folks
that impression.

A little power of suggestion goes a long way ;-)

>What are these people thinking?

Oh, I agree. *However* the owner's inadequacies as trainers still
does'nt justify the rough treatment Buck dishes out on their horses in
order to "catch them up" to where he feels they "should" be. I was
particularly distressed to read in Sylvana's clinic report (thanks for
posting it Sylvana, even if I don't agree with much of what seemingly
went on there) that a 3 year old who had sustained broken vertebrae in
his neck was used in a Buck clinic. What was THAT horse's owner
thinking?

[Ignatzmom]

Shiela quoted: (from Sylvana's paen of praise to Buck B.)>>... Buck kept up a

>>nonstop narration about the obsolescence of longeing..

And here, he loses me and most of the civilized world. Indeed, >His ignorance

must be admirable to you. How sad.>

The longe line is one of the most valuable tools ever invented for dealing with
horses -- bar none -- It must be handled with finesse, by someone who has a
clue as to what it is for (hint, it is not "lungeing" around) Bad longeing is
like bad round pen work -- a waste of time and a positive evil. Pity Mr.
Brannaman has no idea of what can be done with a longe in the hands of someone
who has the ability to use it. Perhaps he should spend some time in France
watching Michel Henriquet?

Lee, Still riding after all these years.

[Jackie]

On 10 Aug 1998 19:35:38 GMT, igna...@aol.com (Ignatzmom) wrote:

>And here, he loses me and most of the civilized world. Indeed, >His ignorance
>must be admirable to you. How sad.>
>The longe line is one of the most valuable tools ever invented for dealing with
>horses -- bar none -- It must be handled with finesse, by someone who has a
>clue as to what it is for (hint, it is not "lungeing" around) Bad longeing is
>like bad round pen work -- a waste of time and a positive evil. Pity Mr.
>Brannaman has no idea of what can be done with a longe in the hands of someone
>who has the ability to use it. Perhaps he should spend some time in France
>watching Michel Henriquet?

I wonder if what you call bad is the same as what he calls bad though.
In other words, I wonder of you see as a problem that which he
identifies as such?

Jackie

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On 10 Aug 1998 18:46:44 GMT, Laura Friedman <Lfri...@nospam.net>
wrote:

>Jim & Laura Behning wrote:

>> I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
>> he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
>> that, folks, is very very sad.

>What's sadder to me is how many people out there allow their horses to
>get to such a horrible state. How can you have a two year old, which
>you claim to handle, that has as little manners as the horses in Buck's
>clinic? And if you don't know how to handle a youngster, why buy or
>breed one in the first place?

I'm with both Lauras on this one.

Manners, manners, manners. Young horses should be getting a LOT of
groundwork. Leading. In-hand trail work. Long-lining. Longing.
Even harnessing and driving. Prep for veternary work later.

It's not rocket science. Michelle (EvalleyR) consistently turns out
the nicest-tempered foals I've ever seen, and that's due to lots of
handling, firm insistence on manners, and just plain tincture of time.
All without access to a round pen, arena or even a corral <grin>.

I've seen pix of her daughters leading the babies around. We're
talking small kiddos at the time, too....

jrw

[MClark6145]

>Thanks for the series of posts about the BB clinic, Sylvana. I enjoyed
>reading
>them.

The same here Sylvana!! Thank you very much,, I've applyed many of Buck's
techniques and had wonderful results,,amazing actually,,,and there was no
hitting, slapping, or chasing going on..Just good common sense horsemanship.
Patricia
may all your trails be smooth

[Darryl Wagoner]

look@this, Muleskinner wrote:
>
> Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:
>
> Only to the ignorant, like you, Sylvana.
>
...
>>

> >then wound the life down through one-rein stops ...
>
> That's the euphemism for 'jerk in the mouth'.
..

..

> >As a result, this stallion got more groundwork ...
>
> That's the euphemism for 'chased hard', again.

These statement all by it little self tells me you don't have
a f****** clue what you are talking about! Pardon my French!
That is euphemism for 'you are so full of anger that you can not
see or think straight.'

Let's get real here folks. I agree that some of the tech.
that Buck uses may be a subject of disagreement, but please
let not start making up stuff or twisting it around to mean
something else. The euphemisms above are flat out lies!

Gee Muleskinner, you call Sylvana a "Lying Sack o'Shit", but
you make up all these lies about Buck as you go. So what
is your problem anyway? You must have a lot of pent up anger
to spend this much time and effort trying to attach a person
that you don't really have a clue about. I guess it is a
good thing that you have rec.eq to vent on or I think your
horses would suffer. So keep on venting. But you should
also get some help. If not for yourself then do it for
your horses.

--
Darryl Wagoner - International Friends of Horses (IFOH)
dar...@ifoh.org http://www.ifoh.org

[Alicia Knapp]

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:50:15 GMT, look@this,willya.now (Muleskinner)
wrote:

>Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

<big snip>

>> Wiggly lines that looked like
>>aimless wandering... Loping him until the trot-to-canter
>>transitions were smooth...
>
>Three year old colt, recently injured ...
>
>> with the colt’s ears forward...
>
>To hostlers with knowledge and experience,
>that's not something desireable in training.

<snip>

When Bach's most attentive and relaxed, his ears flop to the side in
the rhythm of his stride. One or the other will lightly flick back
toward me in response to any rein action.

I heard (somewhere) that human runners at the upper levels are coached
to relax their facial muscles which is the source of those grotesque
facial effects we see during slow-motion replays of finishes during
the Olympics. As I understand it, at that level of competition, even
the slight muscular effort of tension in the face is considered an
inhibition to peak effort.

In the case of the dressage horse, I wonder if he is capable of a
truly relaxed topline - all the way through the poll - when any ear
tension exists at all. I would say that Bach is not.

Aside to Sheila: Bach has become The Little (Dressage) Horse who Could
before my very eyes this summer. I'm brimming over with excitement at
his apparent potential - Mary thinks I might eventually show him to
third level. He's showed me with utter clarity what it means to have a
horse in front of the leg ("Oh - that's what that means" <g>) and what
inside leg to outside rein really is ("Gee - that's exactly like what
it feels like.") <heh heh>

Did you ever think that we would be schooling him alternating
haunches-in/shoulder-in at the trot on a circle? That was today. And
Mr. Rushing-with-Tension seems to have had an epiphany; I *love*
having his trust and quiet acceptance! Suffice it to say where once he
was a union man, with a strict policy of "work to rule" he's suddenly
become a company man. ;->

OK - enough crowing. It only tempts the Dressage Faerie to invent
fresh tortures for me. <BEG>

Be well.

--
Alicia Knapp
in Anoka, MN

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We are the music-makers and we are
the dreamers of the dreams."
- Willy Wonka &
The Chocolate Factory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Alicia Knapp]

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:19:54 GMT, JJ...@dial.pipex.com (Jackie) wrote:

In response to Syl Smith's contention that Buck Brannaman considers
longeing obsolete.
<snip>

>> Pity Mr. Brannaman has no idea of what can be done with a longe in the
>>hands of someone who has the ability to use it. Perhaps he should
>>spend some time in France watching Michel Henriquet?

He needn't go so far. He can watch my riding instructor/coach right
here in Minnesota. Of course, she's a "nobody"...

(I'll add, in fairness to Mr. Brannaman, that as long as Ms. Smith's
is the only report of his philosophies on this subject, I'm reluctant
to assume his position has been fully or fairly presented. For
instance, if he were to say "Longeing, as it is too-often practiced,
is __a_waste_of_time__" I mightn't disagree with him.)

>I wonder if what you call bad is the same as what he calls bad though.

What problems do you believe longeing creates?

Are those problems the inevitable result of longeing itself, or are
they related to the technique/skill of the trainer involved?

Have you ever seen longeing that you felt was skilled or effective? Do
you believe that longeing might have limited uses but a round pen is
always superior?

Could someone who works with the horse on a spiritual level have
success at longeing where another would not?

>In other words, I wonder of you see as a problem that which he
>identifies as such?

Is it your belief that Brannaman cannot be mistaken or misinformed
about the usefulness of longeing, and that therefore, if he sees
problems with it, he must be seeing more deeply than =anyone= who
would disagree with that position?

"If the rider has sufficient experience--but only then--the early work
[starting a young horse -AK] will be made much easier by correct
longeing.
[...]
Correct longeing is an art. It does not just mean making the horse run
round in a circle; this would be no more than the task for an
inexperienced person."

_The_Complete _Training_of_Horse_and_Rider_ by Alois Podhajsky,
english translation Š1967.

When my coach longes a horse, he becomes calmer and more attentive to
her. Charles deKunffy says you cannot shape the horse, you can only
shape his energy and that is what she does. Under her influence the
horse can be encouraged to travel in better balance, to take up a more
consistent rhythm, to engage his inside hind more deeply. She can
amplify his gaits without chasing. Her signals can be so subtle that
she seems, at times, to be using telepathy.

She's been coaching me in this skill (not continuously!) for about
five years, and I do not consider myself her equal yet. I believe that
longeing (and work in hand) is as complex a skill as riding, and that
as few people as are willing to devote themselves wholeheartedly to
studying the latter, a much smaller group undertakes serious study of
the former.

To dismiss it as completely unworthy is, IMO, a task suited only to
the uninformed pandering to the ignorant.

[Alicia Knapp]

This a =corrected= version of my last post.

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:19:54 GMT, JJ...@dial.pipex.com (Jackie) wrote:

=====OOPS!!=====
This is a quote from Lee (Ignatzmom), in my haste I let my Happy
Fingers delete the attribution.
My apologies to all involved. -AK
=====OOPS!!=====

english translation ©1967.

[Jackie]

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:00:02 GMT, aak...@uswest.net (Alicia Knapp)
wrote:

>>> Pity Mr. Brannaman has no idea of what can be done with a longe in the
>>>hands of someone who has the ability to use it. Perhaps he should
>>>spend some time in France watching Michel Henriquet?

>(I'll add, in fairness to Mr. Brannaman, that as long as Ms. Smith's

>is the only report of his philosophies on this subject, I'm reluctant
>to assume his position has been fully or fairly presented. For
>instance, if he were to say "Longeing, as it is too-often practiced,
>is __a_waste_of_time__" I mightn't disagree with him.)

This is one of my points exactly - this is far nearer what Buck
actually did say. Does the poster know what Buck does or doesn't know
about lunging? The poster (and others who have said the same) have
agreed that bad lunging is bad, and good lunging is good. But what do
they consider bad? Is it the same problem as Buck sees? Are their
minds even open just a chink enough to find out what he means?

>What problems do you believe longeing creates?

I am asking that question. What problem do you believe bad lunging
creates that good lunging does not? Have you identified the same
problems Buck has? What proportion of the population of the US
practice 'good lunging'? 10%, 1%, 0.1%? If it is even 1% is Buck wrong
to warn the 99% against the pitfalls of it?

>Are those problems the inevitable result of longeing itself, or are
>they related to the technique/skill of the trainer involved?

You tell me. What is the attitude that Buck expresses that is being
objected to, what does he mean?

>Have you ever seen longeing that you felt was skilled or effective?

I learned to lunge 'correctly' under one who trained at the SRS under
Podhajsky. But I no longer do what she taught me - the feel I saw
watching an old cowboy transformed my 'in hand' work.

>you believe that longeing might have limited uses but a round pen is
>always superior?

Not necessarily, but why does everyone who derides a round pen talk
about chasing - is that what they do on the lunge, chase their horses
round?

>Is it your belief that Brannaman cannot be mistaken or misinformed
>about the usefulness of longeing, and that therefore, if he sees
>problems with it, he must be seeing more deeply than =anyone= who
>would disagree with that position?

Not at all - I just think he is judging it on a totally different
criteria which those who judge him for his statement have not
considered. I wait to find out.

>To dismiss it as completely unworthy is, IMO, a task suited only to
>the uninformed pandering to the ignorant.

Indeed, but Buck did not say that did he:

"Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he
says will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says

with a mischievous grin. If you ever want to get Buck going on a
subject, ask him what he thinks about longeing: "I’ve worked with
more than 10,000 horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a
horse without losing the feel that you can achieve on the end of a
halter rope. People get them going around, steady, not disrespectful,
but tuned out. The very greatest dressage masters can longe with
quality, but how many of them are there?"

I wish people around here would control their knee-jerk reactions long
enough to actually think about what people like Buck are saying. You
say you have had five years training with an expert and you cannot do
it masterfully yet - how can you disagree with him?

Jackie

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <35CFB7BD...@ifoh.org>,
dar...@ifoh.org wrote:

> look@this, Muleskinner wrote:
> >
> > Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:
> >
> > Only to the ignorant, like you, Sylvana.
> >
> ...
> >>

> > >then wound the life down through one-rein stops ...
> >
> > That's the euphemism for 'jerk in the mouth'.
> ..

> ..

> > >As a result, this stallion got more groundwork ...
> >
> > That's the euphemism for 'chased hard', again.

(snipped parts)

> let not start making up stuff or twisting it around to mean
> something else. The euphemisms above are flat out lies!

Not according to the reports of a couple re.eq'ers
who have reviewed Buck's tape which showed what
'Muleskinner" is saying.

down the tejas trails.....

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
35d01077...@news.dial.pipex.com>,

JJ...@dial.pipex.com (Jackie) wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:00:02 GMT, aak...@uswest.net (Alicia Knapp)
> wrote:

(snipped parts)

> >(I'll add, in fairness to Mr. Brannaman, that as long as Ms. Smith's
> >is the only report of his philosophies on this subject, I'm reluctant
> >to assume his position has been fully or fairly presented. For
> >instance, if he were to say "Longeing, as it is too-often practiced,
> >is __a_waste_of_time__" I mightn't disagree with him.)
>
> This is one of my points exactly - this is far nearer what Buck
> actually did say.

How do you know? You've claimed you have never
seen Buckaroo Buck.

> >To dismiss it as completely unworthy is, IMO, a task suited only to
> >the uninformed pandering to the ignorant.
>
> Indeed, but Buck did not say that did he:

How do you know? You've claimed you have never
seen Buckaroo Buck. However, Sylvana claims it
so.

> I wish people around here would control their knee-jerk reactions long
> enough to actually think about what people like Buck are saying.

How do you know? You've claimed you have never
seen Buckaroo Buck.

Yup, ya ought to take your own advise.

[CMNewell]

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:17:17 -0400, Darryl Wagoner <dar...@ifoh.org>
wrote:

>These statement all by it little self tells me you don't have
>a f****** clue what you are talking about! Pardon my French!
>That is euphemism for 'you are so full of anger that you can not
>see or think straight.'

One might reasonably guess from the above that you suffer from
the same condition you describe. You certainly seem to have at least
one tailhair beneath your crupper.

CMNewell, DVM
*****
Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
The Chuck of Eq

[Eiyan]

Buck quote:

> "I’ve worked with
>more than 10,000 horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a
>horse without losing the feel that you can achieve on the end of a
>halter rope".

I don't get this comment. By "halter rope" does he mean your basic lead rope
attached to a halter? Is it some different kind of halter or rope? And
why/how do you necessarily lose that feel on a lunge line?
Ann

[Ignatzmom]

Ann questioned:>By "halter rope" does he mean your basic lead rope

>attached to a halter? Is it some different kind of halter or rope? And
>why/how do you necessarily lose that feel on a lunge line?

I wonder, as well. What exact "feel" is he talking about? How do you lose it
on a longe, by the mere fact that it is a longer "rope"?

Ah well, perhaps we will be enlightened by the followers of the "light" as to
what he is talking about. when I see a direct quote about
"obsolescence of longeing" I assume that is what is being talked about. Silly
me.

Bad technique on the longe, BTW, includes : running horse around stiffly at top
speed to "wear him down" or "exercise" him, (same bad technique in the round
pen is possible) allowing/encouraging the horse to lug on the line, turning
head to outside of circle, too long work on hard surface, ditto on soft,
attempting to "set" horses head with bitting rig on the longe, tight side reins
(IMO, any side reins at all) and I am sure there are other examples.

Bad round pen work? constant roll backs on young horses with soft hocks, work
at top speed for extended periods, frequent fast, hard stops, generally chasing
horse around instead of doing productive work with him, constant threats (by
invading his space) preventing him from working forward freely -- you get the
idea.

For gross work, round pens are fine. For fine tuning and finesse,there is much
better communication possible with a longe. I have yet to see someone who
could work a horse collected, extended and "working" in a round pen. It is
done all the time on a longe. (without side reins, BTW)

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 04:46:42 GMT, aak...@uswest.net (Alicia Knapp)
wrote:

snip

>(I'll add, in fairness to Mr. Brannaman, that as long as Ms. Smith's
>is the only report of his philosophies on this subject, I'm reluctant
>to assume his position has been fully or fairly presented. For
>instance, if he were to say "Longeing, as it is too-often practiced,
>is __a_waste_of_time__" I mightn't disagree with him.)

Nah, I've heard it as reported by Ms. Smith on his videos.

He *really* is down on longing.

jrw

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On 11 Aug 1998 15:10:27 GMT, ei...@aol.com (Eiyan) wrote:

>Buck quote:

>> "I’ve worked with
>>more than 10,000 horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a
>>horse without losing the feel that you can achieve on the end of a
>>halter rope".

>I don't get this comment. By "halter rope" does he mean your basic lead rope

>attached to a halter? Is it some different kind of halter or rope? And
>why/how do you necessarily lose that feel on a lunge line?

These are all good points, Ann.

I don't know what the difference is on the halter vs lead rope--what I
saw in the video looked like a standard thick soft cotton lead rope.

I can't understand why working with a lead rope would be any different
than working with a lunge line, to tell you the truth. I've lunged
and worked with horses on lunge lines, lead ropes, and even bridle
reins a couple of times.

Now Buck may be attacking the "run like hell" attitude far too many
folks have when using a lunge line, as well as those folks who seem to
think that you have to hit the horse with the whip when lunging them.

But to tell you the truth, I can't see why the magic only works when
it's done on a lead (halter) rope but not on a lunge line (and yes,
you can get lunge lines in soft cotton rope just like those lead
ropes).

jrw

[Darryl Wagoner]

Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:

> On 11 Aug 1998 15:10:27 GMT, ei...@aol.com (Eiyan) wrote:
>
> >Buck quote:
>
> >> "I’ve worked with
> >>more than 10,000 horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a
> >>horse without losing the feel that you can achieve on the end of a
> >>halter rope".
>
>

> I can't understand why working with a lead rope would be any different
> than working with a lunge line, to tell you the truth. I've lunged
> and worked with horses on lunge lines, lead ropes, and even bridle
> reins a couple of times.
>
> Now Buck may be attacking the "run like hell" attitude far too many
> folks have when using a lunge line, as well as those folks who seem to
> think that you have to hit the horse with the whip when lunging them.

I heard Buck speak about the evils of lunge line and I DO NOT agree
that they are bad. The problem is that many trainers in the Arab world
will try to use them to wear them down, so that they will be mellow for
class, rides or what every. I think that a lunge like can be used effectively
as a round pin. You just have to pay attention to what your doing. Don't
say that you need to always pay attention when training horses. I agree!
But it isn't done much when lunging. Trainers and owners will "checkout".
Lunging this be done with a goal in mind, not just to run the horse. I think
a round pin is better for doing the same work, but requires more skill on
the trainers part and most show grounds don't have round pins.

-darryl

[CMNewell]

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:05:32 -0400, Darryl Wagoner <dar...@ifoh.org>
wrote:

>I heard Buck speak about the evils of lunge line and I DO NOT agree
>that they are bad. The problem is that many trainers in the Arab world
>will try to use them to wear them down, so that they will be mellow for
>class, rides or what every.

The more fools, they. Anyone with half a brain knows that
longeing an Arab in an attempt to exhaust it just builds its
endurance...<EG>

[Darryl Wagoner]

CMNewell wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:05:32 -0400, Darryl Wagoner <dar...@ifoh.org>
> wrote:
>
> >I heard Buck speak about the evils of lunge line and I DO NOT agree
> >that they are bad. The problem is that many trainers in the Arab world
> >will try to use them to wear them down, so that they will be mellow for
> >class, rides or what every.
>
> The more fools, they. Anyone with half a brain knows that
> longeing an Arab in an attempt to exhaust it just builds its
> endurance...<EG>

But there are a lot of fools out their. That is one of the reasons Sue & I
had
to laugh when they was talking about ground work was just wearing them out.
I don't think so. When we was having computer problems at Hudson Valley
and there was fools out lunging at 2 AM.

Got wonder!

[Darryl Wagoner]

jkil...@mcia.com wrote:

> In article <35CFB7BD...@ifoh.org>,
> dar...@ifoh.org wrote:
> > look@this, Muleskinner wrote:
> > >
> > > Sylvana "Lying Sack o'Shit" Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Only to the ignorant, like you, Sylvana.
> > >
> > ...
> > >>
> > > >then wound the life down through one-rein stops ...
> > >
> > > That's the euphemism for 'jerk in the mouth'.
> > ..
> > ..
> > > >As a result, this stallion got more groundwork ...
> > >
> > > That's the euphemism for 'chased hard', again.
>
> (snipped parts)
>
> > let not start making up stuff or twisting it around to mean
> > something else. The euphemisms above are flat out lies!
>
> Not according to the reports of a couple re.eq'ers
> who have reviewed Buck's tape which showed what
> 'Muleskinner" is saying.

Who was talking about the tape. I haven't seen it yet, so I will not
comment on what I haven't seen for myself (unlike others on rec.eq).

I have been to Buck clinic and the accounts of Chapel Hill accuracy reflect

what I saw in Maine. During the entire time I never saw Buck ride or
run any horse for more than 10 minutes at a time. It just flat didn't
happen!

BTW I order THE JEFFERY METHOD OF HORSE HANDLING by Maurice Wright
this morning and looking forward to seeing it. The url for the site that I
order it from is:

http://www.bookstable.com/tapego.htm#jeffery

If the burb about the tape is true and I have no reason to think it isn't.
I think
every horse person should have it in their library. I also don't think it
is going
to be the end all. Buck, Monty, John Lyons, etc isn't either. No one is!

"If your only tool is a hammer, then the world looks like a nail."

You don't think that Buck is gentle enough and I may not agree once I see
Wright tape,
but I will maintain the is a big step in the right direction compared to
90% of current
show trainers. If we can get trainers moving in the right direction it
will be much easier
to continue onward to more gentle training. This is my goal and the goal
of IFOH.

-darryl

[Catja Pafort]

Laura wrote:

>Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>>
>> I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
>> he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
>> that, folks, is very very sad.
>>
>What's sadder to me is how many people out there allow their horses to
>get to such a horrible state. How can you have a two year old, which
>you claim to handle, that has as little manners as the horses in Buck's
>clinic? And if you don't know how to handle a youngster, why buy or
>breed one in the first place?

Well, I should think that a lot of people don't know what they're
getting into. Cute foals, after all, tend to make pushy youngsters -
and more often than not dangerous horses. BUT you have to start
somewhere. Blessed are those that are introduced into handling
youngstock (which IS different from handling grown horses) by those
who know what they're doing.

I dread the time when the students come back. Our alibi youngster (the
college is supposed to have youngstock so the students learn precisely
that, sadly most of them don't) is right now sharing a field with
Mork. He's getting *quite* pushy and bored ATM, and I hope someone
WILL work with him before the kids come back - or I see visions of
blood rising before my inner eye

Catja (I should stop reading those history books)
and Mork (He doesn't bother ME)

--
Catja Pafort
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~cap96>

"Reality is for those who lack imagination."
(CMNewell on rec.eq)

[Catja Pafort]

Bill (AlaTmPnr) wrote:

> I am amazed at the vitriolity of the attacks against a man(Brannaman) that
>ya'll apparently have never even met. I would at least meet the man before
>casting him out in sack cloth and ashes.

An attack of the method is not an attack of the man himself. No, I
haven't met him, but I don't have to meet him to critizise what he
does, either.

> In a day where lip chains, twitches, war bridles and all the other
>paraphenalia associated with convincing a horse to cooperate with us, a kinder
>a gentler way is to be embraced not ripped to shreds.

There is open brutality, hidden brutality, and there are actions that
will, in the long run, have more detrimental effects on a horse than a
yank in the mouth. I'm sorry if your upbringing includes lip chains,
and war bridles (have someone explain the function of a twitch when
you get around to it, that's not an instrument of torture, nor do you
use it to 'convince the horse to cooperate', I'm using a similar
technique at the dentist) - I happen to come from a background where
horses are taught slowly and with respect. Oh, I forgot, I bore them
to death on the end of a long piece of string. (Take that literally, I
used to lunge on a long piece of baling twine <g>)

> If a person finds someone they can follow to a better understanding of the
>horse then let them go. Whether it is Parellli, Brannaman or someone else, it
>will certainly be no worse than your own particular brand of hell/heaven that
>you will end up with.

If fundamental principles of psychology and anatomy are ignored,
horses (and people) get hurt.

> When ya'll can argue from knowledge and not just your interpretation of
>the facts then I guess I will start reading again.
> This is me sitting on the sidelines waiting for the dust to settle.

This is me riding into the sunset kicking up more dust...

Catja
and Mork ('that's a straight line of about two miles, unless you want
to swim')
('why not, it *is* summer')

[Catja Pafort]

Jackie wrote in answer to Alicia:

>>What problems do you believe longeing creates?
>
>I am asking that question. What problem do you believe bad lunging
>creates that good lunging does not?

I think thge question 'what problems does good lungeing create' or
rather 'what can't you achieve with lungeing' is a valid one and
should not be dismissed outright.

>Have you identified the same
>problems Buck has? What proportion of the population of the US
>practice 'good lunging'? 10%, 1%, 0.1%? If it is even 1% is Buck wrong
>to warn the 99% against the pitfalls of it?

What about teaching them to do it correctly? IMO lungeing has a place
in the education of a riding horse, it's a very helpful training tool,
and should not be ignored just because most people don't practice it
correctly. It's no wizardry, either. If you can be taught how to ride,
you can be taught how to lunge.

>>Are those problems the inevitable result of longeing itself, or are
>>they related to the technique/skill of the trainer involved?

I think one problem you won't solve on the lunge alone is that of
self-cariage. If a horse does not bend correctly, for instance, he
will find it easier to learn if you SHOW him from the saddle or in
hand. Ditto with stretching down. Ditto with collection. If a horse
does not react the way you want him to, continueing to lunge badly
won't solve anything.

>You tell me. What is the attitude that Buck expresses that is being
>objected to, what does he mean?
>
>>Have you ever seen longeing that you felt was skilled or effective?
>
>I learned to lunge 'correctly' under one who trained at the SRS under
>Podhajsky. But I no longer do what she taught me - the feel I saw
>watching an old cowboy transformed my 'in hand' work.

Have you not adopted the technique? Why not? Was there nothing
worthwhile in it?

>>you believe that longeing might have limited uses but a round pen is
>>always superior?
>
>Not necessarily, but why does everyone who derides a round pen talk
>about chasing - is that what they do on the lunge, chase their horses
>round?

To me a round pen is the diametral opposite of a lunge - a lunge line
limits to the inside, a round pen to the outside. I feel that lungeing
with a youngster is the better option to get him used to commands, I
also feel that to work a grown horse a lunge (or better still, double
lunge) provides me with more variations. I also do not like to see
green horses running free with bits and/or saddles.

>>To dismiss it as completely unworthy is, IMO, a task suited only to
>>the uninformed pandering to the ignorant.
>
>Indeed, but Buck did not say that did he:
>

>"Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he
>says will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says
>with a mischievous grin. If you ever want to get Buck going on a

>subject, ask him what he thinks about longeing: "I’ve worked with

>more than 10,000 horses, and I haven’t seen anybody yet longeing a

>horse without losing the feel that you can achieve on the end of a
>halter rope. People get them going around, steady, not disrespectful,
>but tuned out. The very greatest dressage masters can longe with
>quality, but how many of them are there?"

Not believing in 'masters' I think he's mistaken here - I have seen
many good horsemen lunge properly, and achieve a lot with lungeing. It
ain't no wizardry. If you know what you want to achieve on the lunge,
it's a valuable tool, and telling people that only masters can use it
is a mystification that will only serve to prevent others from
learning the technique.

Catja,
who knows when not to lunge, which is probably the more useful skill.

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <35D087EC...@ifoh.org>,
dar...@ifoh.org wrote:
(snipped parts)

> I heard Buck speak about the evils of lunge line and I DO NOT agree
> that they are bad.

> Lunging this be done with a goal in mind, not just to run the horse. I think

> a round pin is better for doing the same work, but requires more skill on
> the trainers part and most show grounds don't have round pins.

So how do you collect a horse, work a frame, work
extensions, shoulder in/out, etc. while a horse is
running around sans line in a round pen?

down the tejas trails....

[Eiyan]

Joyce writes:
>Now Buck may be attacking the "run like hell" attitude far too many
>folks have when using a lunge line, as well as those folks who seem to
>think that you have to hit the horse with the whip when lunging them.

This is what I assumed - but I would not call that proper lungeing either. Yet
I feel there is merit in lungeing - and since I have no round pen, I've started
horses on a lunge line and driving lines for 25 yrs. And I've never felt I
"lost feel of them" doing so. But then maybe I don't know what "feel" is <g>.

>But to tell you the truth, I can't see why the magic only works when

>it's done on a lead (halter) rope but not on a lunge line ...

This is what I can't understand either. I thought maybe he was using some kind
of equipment I wasn't familiar with.
Ann

[ASimpCatDr]

Many thanks, Sylvana, for your detailed report of the Buck Brannaman clinic. I
can verify first hand Buck's superior horsemastership, kindness, compassion,
and his firm but gentle effectiveness in starting or restarting horses, having
witnessed them myself in a clinic last March in which I also rode in the
Horsemanship class. I saw no evidence that any of the people who have
criticized his methods on this thread have ever even seen him, nor do they have
any understanding whatsoever of what he does or why. Most of them can be
dismissed as simply ignorant, foolish, and/or full of themselves, and destined
to be forever limited by their own petty prejudices and blind spots, as if
anyone cared. Sheila, on the other hand, is either a seriously disturbed
sociopath or an idiot, and not to be taken seriously by anyone other than a
therapist.

Alice Simpson

[Catja Pafort]

Jane wrote:

>> Lunging this be done with a goal in mind, not just to run the horse. I think
>> a round pin is better for doing the same work, but requires more skill on
>> the trainers part and most show grounds don't have round pins.
>
>So how do you collect a horse

Up to a certain degree you can do it with body language and careful
use of the whip.

>work a frame

Only frame I could think off is Long and Low - otherwise the horse
needs to offer first.

>work extensions

raising your whip, body language, actively taking steps behind the
horse

>shoulder in/out

Haven't got a clue. I can do it, with properly prepared horse close up
with a dressage whip while free working a horse (larger arena with
corners, they provide you with much more flexibility than a round
pen), the same goes for voltes.

Catja

[Jackie]

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:31:52 GMT, ca...@aber.ac.uk (Catja Pafort)
wrote:

>I think one problem you won't solve on the lunge alone is that of
>self-cariage. If a horse does not bend correctly, for instance, he
>will find it easier to learn if you SHOW him from the saddle or in
>hand. Ditto with stretching down. Ditto with collection.

All these can be taught in hand, or even loose.

>Have you not adopted the technique? Why not? Was there nothing
>worthwhile in it?

Which technique? The lunging? I have found something more effective
than the techniques I was shown.

>Not believing in 'masters'....

That explains a lot.......

>I think he's mistaken here - I have seen
>many good horsemen lunge properly, and achieve a lot with lungeing.

And what you would call 'properly', Buck may well consider
counter-productive. As I said, different criteria. And I am still
waiting to hear someone explain why they disagree with those criteria.

Jackie

[Susan Dangar]

Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote in message <35d068d9...@news.aracnet.com>...

Speaking as one of those who hasn't seen the Buckster in action, live or on
tape, might it be he's referring to the practice of longeing the "edge" off
a horse instead of riding it? Or is he referring specifically to longeing
vs. round pen work as a training tool? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm also curious about the "halter rope" thing. Is it attached to the
halter or is it what the old-timers referred to as a come-along? (think war
bridle with an additional loop around the neck).

Susan Dangar

[Darryl Wagoner]

jkil...@mcia.com wrote:
>
> In article <35D087EC...@ifoh.org>,
> dar...@ifoh.org wrote:
> (snipped parts)
>
> > I heard Buck speak about the evils of lunge line and I DO NOT agree
> > that they are bad.
>

> > Lunging this be done with a goal in mind, not just to run the horse. I think
> > a round pin is better for doing the same work, but requires more skill on
> > the trainers part and most show grounds don't have round pins.
>

> So how do you collect a horse, work a frame, work
> extensions, shoulder in/out, etc. while a horse is
> running around sans line in a round pen?

I said that I don't agree with Buck on this one. I agree with you.

[AlaTmPnr]

Alice,

>> Sheila, on the other hand, is either a seriously disturbed sociopath or an
idiot, and not to be taken seriously by anyone other than a therapist.<<

Geez, Alice why dont you just speak your mind!! Dont hold back now!! LOL

Bill

[AlaTmPnr]

>>An attack of the method is not an attack of the man himself. No, I haven't
met him, but I don't have to meet him to critizise what he does, either.<<

There is open brutality, hidden brutality, and there are actions that

will, in the long run, have more detrimental effects on a horse than a
yank in the mouth.

>> that's not an instrument of torture, nor do you use it to 'convince the

horse to cooperate', I'm using a similar technique at the dentist)

I happen to come from a background where

horses are taught slowly and with respect.<<

Hmmmmmm remind me to ask what type of anathesia is use before I have ya'll work
on my mouth............. You talk about a twitch and in the breath say that you
work slowly and with respect. Taken in that vein no wonder your horses can
work on a twine longe line they are terrified! LOL Sort of like your open
brutality and hidden brutality. Yep I can see what you were talking about now.

Bill

[Catja Pafort]

Jackie wrote:

>>I think one problem you won't solve on the lunge alone is that of
>>self-cariage. If a horse does not bend correctly, for instance, he
>>will find it easier to learn if you SHOW him from the saddle or in
>>hand. Ditto with stretching down. Ditto with collection.
>
>All these can be taught in hand, or even loose.

<QUOTE> "...or in hand" <UNQUOTE> Up there, in writing. I said these
are issues that cannot be solve <QUOTE> "on the lunge alone" <UNQUOTE>
and I will keep up that opinion. Sometimes, on a lunge line, you are
just too far away from the horse, and if he is intent on not listening
(or doesn't know what you're talking about) you have to use other
methods. That doesn't make lungeing bad per se, or devalues lungeing.
There are things that are easier in hand than under saddle, things
that are easier on the lunge than in hand etc etc.

>>Not believing in 'masters'....
>
>That explains a lot.......

I suppose it does. I don't believe in 'masters' as holding the only
key to true equine happiness. I've watched, and worked with, many good
riders - some you probably would consider masters, like Egon von
Neindorff (my instructor was a student of his), others you probably
have never heard off. They are people with not only talent, but
dedication - and people who have a VERY broad education in all things
equine. At the same time, these would be the first people to admit
that there are many things to learn, techniques to refine.

>>I think he's mistaken here - I have seen
>>many good horsemen lunge properly, and achieve a lot with lungeing.
>
>And what you would call 'properly', Buck may well consider
>counter-productive. As I said, different criteria. And I am still
>waiting to hear someone explain why they disagree with those criteria.

Then maybe you should define those criteria. I would call lungeing
improper if it
- encourages the horse to use himself improperly (eg travel hollow)
- puts excessive strain on the horse (circles too tight, insufficient
warmup) Lungeing is more stressful than normal riding, which is why it
should not go beyond 20-30 minutes at any time.
- does not allow the horse to find his own balance (horse travelling
over speed)
- forces the horse into a frame (all kinds of gadgets.) There are
*some* instances when properly used sidereins, running sidereins, or a
chambon can help the horse to find a better position, but those should
be used sparingly, and the horse should not be tied up in a parcel
from the beginning. An advanced horse can easily be worked (not just
exercised) in a halter/cavesson.

If the horse is getting exited, doens't pay attention to the handler,
of if lungeing is just to 'get the kinks out' of a badly trained horse
before the rider dares mount, then I'd also consider it unproductive.

A horse that's calmly stretching into the bit, going with elastic
steps over the back, listens to the handler and is willing to follow
his commands instantly is one that I'd consider 'properly' lunged -
and as I said, I've seen that more than once, and not just in
Karlsruhe.

[Eiyan]

Catja writes:
>A horse that's calmly stretching into the bit, going with elastic
>steps over the back, listens to the handler and is willing to follow
>his commands instantly is one that I'd consider 'properly' lunged -

Some people will lunge a horse as described above and allow the horse to go
'round and 'round to develop and condition his muscles in a correct frame - you
might lunge a horse that has been hollow and let him go on a while in a good
frame so he gets a feel for it. Maybe this is counter to Buck's aim, which
might be to want more interaction from the horse. I could see where he could
call that kind of lungeing allowing the horse to go around mindlessly. But I
can see the other side of it too. I think Buck should be the one to define
what it is about lungeing he objects to. Just because he's never seen good
results from lungeing from the horses that come to his clinisc doesn't mean a
whole lot - after all, people bring their horses to him because they're having
problems!
Ann

[Eiyan]

Alice writes:
> Sheila, on the other hand, is either a seriously disturbed
>sociopath or an idiot, and not to be taken seriously by anyone other than a
>therapist.

LOL - Now don't be shy, Alice! You just say whatever it is that's on your mind
<g>.
Ann

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On 12 Aug 1998 06:09:30 GMT, asimp...@aol.com (ASimpCatDr) wrote:

>Many thanks, Sylvana, for your detailed report of the Buck Brannaman clinic. I
>can verify first hand Buck's superior horsemastership, kindness, compassion,
>and his firm but gentle effectiveness in starting or restarting horses, having
>witnessed them myself in a clinic last March in which I also rode in the
>Horsemanship class. I saw no evidence that any of the people who have
>criticized his methods on this thread have ever even seen him, nor do they have
>any understanding whatsoever of what he does or why. Most of them can be
>dismissed as simply ignorant, foolish, and/or full of themselves, and destined
>to be forever limited by their own petty prejudices and blind spots, as if

>anyone cared. Sheila, on the other hand, is either a seriously disturbed

>sociopath or an idiot, and not to be taken seriously by anyone other than a
>therapist.

Before you go too far on this, Alice, be aware that at least two of us
critics have sat down and watched Buck videos. Both Laura Behning and
I watched Buck videos, and neither one of us were satisfied.

I, personally, preferred the older Horsemanship video from at least
ten years ago, with a younger, less media-savvy Buck who was obviously
much more interested in having people do the right things with horses
than in putting on a show.

I didn't care for the later manifestation as shown in his
colt-starting videos, with a lot of snide and snitty remarks, playing
to the crowd, and attempts at entertainment over good horsemanship.

What I saw on the Buck video doesn't make me want to rush out and see
a clinic.

I am, however, planning to go to a Jean-Claude Racinet clinic at the
end of September. I figure that's a better use of my time and money
than Brannaman.

jrw

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 06:04:47 -0700, "Susan Dangar"
<sda...@htcomp.net> wrote:

snip

>Speaking as one of those who hasn't seen the Buckster in action, live or on
>tape, might it be he's referring to the practice of longeing the "edge" off
>a horse instead of riding it? Or is he referring specifically to longeing
>vs. round pen work as a training tool? Inquiring minds want to know.

Having only seen him on video, my impression is that he's referring
specifically to longeing vs round pen work. From what I recall of
what he says, he seems to have seen a lot of the results of poor
longeing technique--stiff horses, horses that don't flex well, that
sort of thing. Myself, I think it's a throw the baby out with the
bathwater type of thing.

>I'm also curious about the "halter rope" thing. Is it attached to the
>halter or is it what the old-timers referred to as a come-along? (think war
>bridle with an additional loop around the neck).

I don't recall seeing a come-along setup, I think he's just plain
calling a lead rope a halter rope.

jrw

[Jackie]

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:50:38 GMT, ca...@aber.ac.uk (Catja Pafort)
wrote:

>>And what you would call 'properly', Buck may well consider
>>counter-productive. As I said, different criteria. And I am still
>>waiting to hear someone explain why they disagree with those criteria.
>
>Then maybe you should define those criteria.

No, no, I'm waiting 'til all votes are in, pretty certain that not one
person will mention any of the concerns that they are willing to
dismiss so eagerly. I'm sick of people saying 'There's nothing there'
and then saying 'Oh that, I've always done that'. Great, if they have,
let them say so.

>A horse that's calmly stretching into the bit, going with elastic
>steps over the back, listens to the handler and is willing to follow
>his commands instantly is one that I'd consider 'properly' lunged -

>and as I said, I've seen that more than once, and not just in
>Karlsruhe.

More than once!? What, twice, three times - in how long? And what
percentage does this make? And how long does it take a young horse to
reach this state of 'instant readiness' to what commands, how many
circles do you reckon, how many minutes?

Jackie

[Jim & Laura Behning]

jrw*********@********aracnet.com (Joyce Reynolds-Ward) wrote:

<snip of Alice's "taking it personal" post- geez, can't we just agree
to disagree without lots of namecalling?>

>Before you go too far on this, Alice, be aware that at least two of us
>critics have sat down and watched Buck videos. Both Laura Behning and
>I watched Buck videos, and neither one of us were satisfied.

Sheila has seen the same tapes, as well.

My copies of his tapes are on the "circuit" at present so other rec
eq-ers can see them and hopefully contribute to this discussion.

>I, personally, preferred the older Horsemanship video from at least
>ten years ago, with a younger, less media-savvy Buck who was obviously
>much more interested in having people do the right things with horses
>than in putting on a show.

Exactly. In the earlier Horsemanship video, he was more tolerant of
his mount's inattention, for example, because the animal was bothered
by flies. I did'nt see that type of sympathy/understanding in the more
recent colt-starting tapes, however, when if his horse's attention
wandered (it looked out of the pen, for example) it got a snatch in
the mouth.

>I didn't care for the later manifestation as shown in his
>colt-starting videos, with a lot of snide and snitty remarks, playing
>to the crowd, and attempts at entertainment over good horsemanship.

Ditto. Emphatically.

>What I saw on the Buck video doesn't make me want to rush out and see
>a clinic.

Well, I still want to go to one, if only to see if he's maybe somehow
different when he's not pandering to the camera. I tend to give folks
the benefit of the doubt until I see them "in person".

>I am, however, planning to go to a Jean-Claude Racinet clinic at the
>end of September. I figure that's a better use of my time and money
>than Brannaman.

I *have* seen Jean Claude, and was unfortunately not pleased by what I
saw there, either (sorry Ruth).

Darnit, a good guru is hard to find ;-)

Laura Behning
morgans at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~morgans/Laura.htm

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
35d1b194...@news.dial.pipex.com>,

JJ...@dial.pipex.com (Jackie) wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:50:38 GMT, ca...@aber.ac.uk (Catja Pafort)
> wrote:
>

re: lungeing vs round pen

> >>And what you would call 'properly', Buck may well consider
> >>counter-productive. As I said, different criteria. And I am still
> >>waiting to hear someone explain why they disagree with those criteria.
> >
> >Then maybe you should define those criteria.
>
> No, no, I'm waiting 'til all votes are in, pretty certain that not one
> person will mention any of the concerns that they are willing to
> dismiss so eagerly.

You are crossing two different types of approaches
to horse training. Buckaroo Buck doesn't use
lungeing. Lungeing is not the best tool to use for
horses with unacceptable behavior. He works with
spoiled horses who were never taught acceptable
behavior by their owners/

One does not approach these type horses through
lungeing. Once the horse is corrected and has
manners, then one can begin teaching the horse
lungeing with pacing, transitions, cavaletti work,
frame, bend, side tracking and so forth.

Buckeroo Buck promotes himself in one area and
doesn't get into the finesse of higher levels of
ground work.

[Sylvana Smith]

ASimpCatDr wrote:
>
> Many thanks, Sylvana, for your detailed report of the Buck Brannaman clinic. I
> can verify first hand Buck's superior horsemastership, kindness, compassion,
> and his firm but gentle effectiveness in starting or restarting horses, having
> witnessed them myself in a clinic last March in which I also rode in the
> Horsemanship class. I saw no evidence that any of the people who have
> criticized his methods on this thread have ever even seen him, nor do they have
> any understanding whatsoever of what he does or why. Most of them can be
> dismissed as simply ignorant, foolish, and/or full of themselves, and destined
> to be forever limited by their own petty prejudices and blind spots, as if
> anyone cared. Sheila, on the other hand, is either a seriously disturbed
> sociopath or an idiot, and not to be taken seriously by anyone other than a
> therapist.
>

> Alice Simpson

Alice--Thank you very kindly for your post, and your keen insights into
human nature! I'm sorry I have been so slow responding, and apparently
have missed a lotta excitement on this issue in the last few days, but
I've been away from the computer for almost a week now for the very best
reason: another Buck Brannaman clinic!

Yes, I trekked out to Asheville, NC., for his Colt-Starting and
Horsemanship clinic, hosted by Dottie Steen and held at the Western NC
Agricultural Center, August 8-10. I had missed the opportunity to enter
the clinic as a rider, as the clinic was filled by the last day of last
year's clinic (I tried!), but I went anyway with intention to audit, and
to finally get enough notes from the Horsemanship section to write up a
clinic report on that portion of the clinic.

But on the first day we arrived in Asheville, the day before the clinic
started, I was offered the ride on the 3-year-old Palomino Quarterhorse
that was just started at last weekend's Colt-Starting clinic in Chapel
Hill! (You'll see him as Horse #4 in my clinic reports.) I eagerly
accepted, and rode him in the Horsemanship section for his owners, who
are delightful people.

I enjoyed making new friends, such as the Millers (the Palomino's
owners), and visiting with old ones, like rec.eq'er Risa Couch, who had
commissioned Buck to ride her lovely Arabian mare, Sterling. When I
have a chance to catch my breath at work, I'll write up my notes from
that clinic. But I'll have to tell you right now that Buck was
complimentary of Risa's work getting her horse soft to the bridle.
(Risa's no newcomer to this, having audited Buck's Asheville clinics in
the past and ridden in Ray Hunt's. It shows!)

After riding four hours a day for six heavenly days at two Buck
Brannaman clinics, it is hard to get back to reality, but after I get
caught up on legitimate work, I'll share my clinic notes, I promise!

PS--To those of you who responded on the NH list about the clinic
reports that Jackie forwarded on my behalf, thanks so much for your
comments. I don't subscribe to the list (logistics that Jackie has
described to you already), but she has forwarded to me your replies. It
means a lot to me to know that kindred spirits are finding the
information useful or affirming, as that was always my intention--to
share the good news!

'Til later, Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>

> look@this,willya.now (Muleskinner) wrote:
>
> Sylvana had paraphrased Buck as saying at a recent clinic:
> >>... you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
> >>colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment. That’s the
> >>goal."
>
> >So why can't he approach that himself?

>
> I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Sheila. It may be that
> he CAN start "colts" quietly. But folks won't pay to see that. And
> that, folks, is very very sad.
>

Laura--I think you've missed the entire point. When he starts an
untouched youngster, it's a pretty quiet deal. I've seen it; I know.
But when he starts some monster that folks have ruined with *their*
previous handling, by necessity it's a bigger deal. And guess what;
it's not usually the cupcakes that folks pay $750 for Buck to start!
More often than not it's the horses that they're plumb afraid of, or
horses that have "scored on" a few folks!

That's why folks like Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman have
devoted their lives to this work. They want to see the day when folks
will be better informed about how to handle their youngsters at home,
how to make friends with them and establish mutually respectful
relations while their horses are young, so that NO colts will get to the
awful mental state that *so many* of them are when they are dragged to
Buck's clinics. At one clinic this year, three of the colt-starting
participants were so rank that the owners backed the trailers up to the
round pen and swung open the gates to let 'em rip. Are the first 20
minutes of those encounters exciting? You bet, but whose fault is it?
The previous handlers!

Any "excitement" that ensues has been caused by clueless previous
handling. What Buck does with these horses quickly becomes such a quiet
deal that the film crews and most of the auditors don't even bother to
show up for Day Three, alas.

Fortunately, as the years pass and Buck makes repeat visits to the same
destinations, more and more folks are becoming educated to these methods
and fewer colts have to go through any trouble to become gentle,
trusting riding horses. But as long as people cling to their old ways
that cause these colts to brace *against* humans, horsemen such as Buck
will have jobs to do.

Thank goodness they're out there doing it. I for one am grateful, and
I've seen so much good done for so many horses this year, that I hope he
turns a deaf ear to the complaints of the uninformed and the malicious.

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>

> Folks overestimate their abilities and/or knowledge, or just get in
> over their heads.

More often than that, they think they have a handle on it, but they've
overlooked a hundred small ways in which their horses are seizing
control and running the show. Those hundred small ways become 50
medium-sized ways become 10 big vices, and for many horses that bit o'
math ultimately becomes 1 big, dangerous, muscled-up 3-year-old that has
hurt somebody or himself or bucked off a few professionals, and then the
folks bring him to Buck... who gets things back on track and restores
the horse to usefulness and a mental state in which he can prosper.

That's not meant as an excuse for such, BTW. But it
> is somewhat more innocent than deliberately provoking horses just to
> make money, when the same result can be reached in a slower, quieter
> but less spectacular manner.

Laura, *you're* the one deliberately provoking! You know from the
descriptions of everybody on this newsgroup who has actually *seen* this
method in action that no "provoking" takes place. Perhaps you have some
way of training horses that doesn't involve asking them to respond to
your requests?

So you think it should all be slower, quieter, and less spectacular?
Not with the ruined animals that folks tend to bring to the
Colt-Starting session, Laura. I have personally seen that a good number
of these animals are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
How long would *you* advise keeping him in that state?

> "you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
> colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment."

Laura, with your judicious editing, you're conveniently obscuring the
obvious fact that he was referring to members of the audience, not to
himself. Re-read the clinic reports and you'll see that he is saddened
by the sorry state that most of the horses arrive in, and by the trouble
that they have to go through to get right inside. Sure, you could sneak
around the horse and try to keep everything so quiet and calm that he'd
never push back, but if you did that, you would never be getting him
right, just kidding yourself. Very often, you don't identify the braces
and resistances until you actually ask the horse to DO something. Sure,
you could train him by never actually asking him to do anything unless
he seemed to want to do it anyway, but then you'd likely get a nasty
surprise the first time he didn't.

> And FWIW, I don't believe that all of the horses in Buck's clinics are
> in actuality so far gone. I do think that he makes them *appear* so-
> and that his verbal "explanations" for their behavior also gives folks
> that impression.

Anyone with a lick of horse-sense can see the mental state of the horses
that are brought to Buck for starting or reclamation. Give the auditors
that much credit!

I was
> particularly distressed to read in Sylvana's clinic report (thanks for
> posting it Sylvana, even if I don't agree with much of what seemingly
> went on there) that a 3 year old who had sustained broken vertebrae in
> his neck was used in a Buck clinic. What was THAT horse's owner
> thinking?

She was thinking that her horse was now clearly sound, powerful,
dangerous, and ready to start on a productive career instead of bucking
off his trainers. Buck agreed. And at the end of three days, the owner
received a polite, attentive, nice-moving riding horse on which she can
continue the good work. She's no newcomer to this method either, having
ridden in Buck's clinics previously (on a stallion, too, so she's no
newcomer to handling stallions).

Isn't it funny that the folks who ride in his clinics and actually
understand this stuff in action tend to come back again and again, and
get new benefits every time, while the critics are the ones who have
never tried it?

--Sylvana

[AlaTmPnr]

Jane,

>>You are crossing two different types of approaches to horse training.
Buckaroo Buck doesn't use lungeing. Lungeing is not the best tool to use for
horses with unacceptable behavior. He works with spoiled horses who were never
taught acceptable behavior by their owners/<<

This is a unique understanding that I hadnt seen exhibited here before.
Congrats on stating what I have heard he does so eloquently.

>>Buckeroo Buck promotes himself in one area and doesn't get into the finesse
of higher levels of ground work.<<

Generally speaking isnt this because there isnt enough time to cover this type
of activity? To properly do ground work you have to have a knowledge of the
horse and a feel for when you get it, would you not? And judging from the
descriptions of the horses brought to him the people who would be doing the
ground work just dont have that knowledge or their horses wouldnt be the mess
they are.

I heard at one time Buck used to teach people how to start their own horses
like Ray Hunt does. Then he went to this Monty Roberts format and I dont know
that you get as much out of it. I really dont care for someone else handling
my horse regardless of his reputed abilities.

Bill

[Sylvana Smith]

On the subject of Buck's low opinion of longeing, Ignatzmom wrote:
>

> And here, he loses me and most of the civilized world. Indeed, >His ignorance
> must be admirable to you. How sad.>
> The longe line is one of the most valuable tools ever invented for dealing with
> horses -- bar none -- It must be handled with finesse, by someone who has a
> clue as to what it is for (hint, it is not "lungeing" around) Bad longeing is
> like bad round pen work -- a waste of time and a positive evil. Pity Mr.
> Brannaman has no idea of what can be done with a longe in the hands of someone
> who has the ability to use it. Perhaps he should spend some time in France
> watching Michel Henriquet?
>

Please re-read my clinic report and you'll see a *direct quote* that
tells you that he has no objection to the longeline as it is used by the
greatest dressage masters of the world.

He *does* have objections to the way most backyard horseowners and
dressage wannabes use it, and having seen countless examples, I have to
agree with him!

The reason longeing becomes obsolete with Buck's method is that the
supposed aims of longeing are better achieved with round pen work and
intelligent riding, Buck says--and then he goes on to prove it, live.

--Sylvana

[Jackie]

On 12 Aug 1998 20:57:35 GMT, alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:

>This is a unique understanding that I hadnt seen exhibited here before.

Oh it's unique all right - Buck stated that what he was looking at had
been PRODUCED by lunging; it was the very thing that had put it wrong
in the first place!

This was no rank horse, and as for Buck only working spoiled horses
who'd owners had never taught them acceptable behaviour, perhaps we
migh look again at WHAT KIND of horse sparked his comment on lunging:

"The five-year-old pinto Warmblood stallion had been scoring above 70
percent in his Training Level dressage tests and earning scores in the
20s in the dressage phase at local horse trials. Most people would be
thrilled with that record of success, but the owner of this dramatic
black-and-white stallion wanted more. She’d had a taste of what it
felt like to ride a horse that Buck has refined, and she wanted it for
this horse. While a lot of things were going well for this horse, the
goal for him in this clinic was to build a lightness and crispness
that he didn’t show—even if it’s a level beyond what dressage judges
expect or reward.

Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he
says will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says

with a mischievous grin........."

Lets stick to the facts shall we?

Jackie

[Sylvana Smith]

Darryl Wagoner wrote:
>
> Thank you very much for you account of Buck clinic. Very much in line
> with what I saw in Maine.
>

Darryl--Thanks so kindly! I try to be thorough and accurate, but
there's just so much that goes on, so much information to try to
capture, and in any event, it's like trying to write about music.
You've seen the fast pace of Buck's explanations and the exercises, and
have an idea how hard it would be to recreate that experience on paper!

Did you ride or audit? You guys are very fortunate to get Buck, as are
we, because he does only three clinics and one demo on the East Coast
each year. Apparently there's a waiting list of 75 potential clinic
hosts at new venues, and the Year 2000 clinic schedule is already
booked! I expect that we East Coast folks only get him at all because
he gives first priority to longtime clinic hosts, and he's been coming
here for 7 years.

He says it's pretty gratifying to come back to the same area year after
year, and see repeat visitors who have progressed, who don't need long
instruction on the basics like the one-rein stop, so the clinics can
cover more ground.

I tossed around the idea of going to the Maine clinic, because we go to
Maine for a week every summer anyway, and I could just conveniently time
it right to pop in on another clinic! But I was already going to Chapel
Hill and Asheville clinics (and did Acton, Calif., earlier this year!),
and I'm going to be out-of-state for 2 1/2 weeks in September/October
(doing guess what!), so our annual trip to Maine got postponed to next
year. ;-)

I heard it was hot-hot-hot, and humid to boot, which is hard to picture
for Maine this time of year! If you have any notes or impressions from
the clinic, I'd love to hear 'em! And if you're interested, check
rec.eq in a few days for my clinic notes from Asheville, which was last
weekend.

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

AlaTmPnr wrote:
>
> Jane,
>
> >>You are crossing two different types of approaches to horse training.
> Buckaroo Buck doesn't use lungeing. Lungeing is not the best tool to use for
> horses with unacceptable behavior. He works with spoiled horses who were never
> taught acceptable behavior by their owners/<<
>

> This is a unique understanding that I hadnt seen exhibited here before.

> Congrats on stating what I have heard he does so eloquently.

Ditto here. Nice description, Jane.

> >>Buckeroo Buck promotes himself in one area and doesn't get into the finesse
> of higher levels of ground work.<<
>
> Generally speaking isnt this because there isnt enough time to cover this type
> of activity? To properly do ground work you have to have a knowledge of the
> horse and a feel for when you get it, would you not? And judging from the
> descriptions of the horses brought to him the people who would be doing the
> ground work just dont have that knowledge or their horses wouldnt be the mess
> they are.

Indeed. For a glimpse of something more than he can offer to basic
Horsemanship groups and owners of Colt-Starting horses, watch him
schooling his own saddle horses, and you'll see how much more there is
available from this one source!

>
> I heard at one time Buck used to teach people how to start their own horses

> like Ray Hunt does. Then he went to this [demonstration] format and I dont know

> that you get as much out of it. I really dont care for someone else handling
> my horse regardless of his reputed abilities.

Actually, it wasn't just "at one time," that he taught folks how to
start their own colts; it was for 15 years, approximately 40 clinics per
year, an average of 20 colts-and-handlers per session, of all abilities
or lack thereof. Buck just switched over to the demonstration format
this year, in order to offer clinic participants and auditors something
different, especially since he'd been visiting many of the same clinic
destinations for many years.

I was glad that the Colt-Starting class was run in the participatory
format when I started my Dutch Warmblood filly in 1993, but as an
auditor of that section now (I ride in the Horsemanship section), I get
a LOT more out of the demonstration format. Like watching Nureyev in
action versus watching Nureyev teaching young students struggling at the
barre.

And I expect that for owners who have truly frightening horses, this new
format gives them an opportunity to get something that they would not be
able to achieve themselves in the participatory format. And it's a rare
opportunity for a lucky six people each week to experience the change in
their horses after Buck's handling, which will be much more dramatic an
improvement than they could likely achieve themselves, especially in
that space of time.

But I agree with Bill on the issue of not having someone else handling
my horses, no matter how good a hand they are. I have an offbeat
reason... For me, it's because the pleasure of horsemanship is in
challenging my judgments and seeing the results, being able to take
pride that everything we achieve is *my* doing, not because some other
trainer or rider did something to them. I started all five of my horses
myself as two-year-olds, raised three of them from foals, and only one
of the five has any outside influence (Prima, she belonged to my
sister).

I have to take any blame for any imperfections, but I also get to take
the credit for the good, so for that selfish reason alone I don't allow
anyone else to ride my horses, no matter how talented, except for
loose-rein trail rides in my company.

But I get a lot out of the demonstration format, hours of
mental-videotape material to enable me to pattern my own riding on that
model! At least try to... :-)

--Sylvana

[Jim & Laura Behning]

Sylvana Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>Laura--I think you've missed the entire point. When he starts an
>untouched youngster, it's a pretty quiet deal. I've seen it; I know.

I expect that is true. I simply prefer to see any animal better
physically and mentally prepared beforehand.

>But when he starts some monster that folks have ruined with *their*

>previous handling, by necessity it's a bigger deal. <snip>

> At one clinic this year, three of the colt-starting
>participants were so rank that the owners backed the trailers up to the
>round pen and swung open the gates to let 'em rip. Are the first 20
>minutes of those encounters exciting? You bet, but whose fault is it?
>The previous handlers!

>Any "excitement" that ensues has been caused by clueless previous
>handling.

No. That "excitement" does NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. That is my point.

[Sylvana Smith]

MClark6145 wrote:
>
> >Thanks for the series of posts about the BB clinic, Sylvana. I enjoyed
> >reading
> >them.
>
> The same here Sylvana!! Thank you very much,, I've applyed many of Buck's
> techniques and had wonderful results,,amazing actually,,,and there was no
> hitting, slapping, or chasing going on..Just good common sense horsemanship.
> Patricia
> may all your trails be smooth

Ann, Patricia, thanks so kindly for your remarks.

It's a shame that so many folks on rec.eq have gotten hung-up on the
pressures and active series of exercises that are necessary to reform
dangerous and highly resistant horses, while overlooking the obvious
fact that when these same methods are used on "normal" horses,
absolutely lovely results are achieved very quickly with easy, quiet
encounters.

Those of us who have cupcake homebreds that have experienced this type
of handling from the get-go are able to start our horses under saddle
with no drama at all using Buck's methods--and so does Buck. Even
though his own youngsters are only brought in from the range a handful
of times in their first two years, those encounters are handled with
quality, the youngsters are turned out with a good frame of mind, and
the process of starting them under saddle is just no big deal at all.
No fuss, no muss.

But do folks bring cupcakes to the Colt-Starting clinic? More often
than not, they bring the horses they're scared of, or those that have
done damage to humans or themselves already, bucked off professional
trainers, shown such violent behaviors that they are a danger even to
themselves. Broncs. Wrecks. Basket cases. It comes as no surprise
that this is what Buck has to deal with week after week; if you had two
horses in the barn and wanted to pay to have *one* of them started for
you, would you choose the sweetie or the Satan? And now folks want to
chastize the *clinician* because so many folks have brought their worst
horses to him?

For a vision of what Buck's methods are like with a non-ruined horse,
ask anyone who boarded at Triangle Arabians in Durham when Carol Bennett
was managing the place (1994) and ask them about the 4-year-old
Tennessee Walker that was being started under saddle using Buck's
methods.

This fully mature horse had no previous training, except how to push his
owners around at feeding time. With no drama and no gimmicks, I had him
yielding to all my movements at liberty and on the halter rope in the
round pen on Day One, saddled and rode him in the round pen at all gaits
in a halter and loose rope on Day Two, rode him at all gaits in the
indoor arena in the snaffle on Day Three, in the outdoor arena on Day
four, in the pasture on Day 5, on the trails on Day Six--all without a
harsh moment between us.

I've used the method successfully on other colts and mature horses, but
I offer this example because it was in a public setting; my claims are
verifiable by anyone who was there. I returned the horse to the owners
in three weeks, because there was just nothing more that he needed to
know in order to be a good riding horse for their 14-year-old daughter,
and he was soft, light, and giving in all his skills.

Knowing that he was a just-started 4-year-old, a lotta folks gathered
around when it was time to load him into my two-horse to get him home,
but I declined their assistance and he loaded himself while I stood by
outside, just as I knew he would.

The stable manager told the owner that everyone at the barn was
disappointed that there were no fireworks in the three weeks I worked
this horse. It was all a most nonchalant affair, and that's how it
should be, and that's how Buck urges people to enable it to be. But the
responsibility is in *their* hands, to see that their horses are raised
from babies to work with humans as friends, not braced against humans in
fear and distrust.

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>

> Sylvana Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:
>
> >Laura--I think you've missed the entire point. When he starts an
> >untouched youngster, it's a pretty quiet deal. I've seen it; I know.
>
> I expect that is true. I simply prefer to see any animal better
> physically and mentally prepared beforehand.

So does Buck! He urges folks to do their homework, to get their horses
gentled at a younger age so they don't have to go through any trouble to
get started under saddle. He says it again and again and again.
Re-read my clinic reports and you'll see a direct quote to that effect!
It's in the write-up for Horse #5:

"I don’t like to see a horse go through this trouble,"
Buck said, mid-process. "You folks out there who have
babies at home, why not work them when they’re little
babies, make friends with them, and then they won’t
have to go through all this trouble when they’re big
and powerful like this one." Buck says he catches up
his colts only 20 times or less in their first few years,
but those encounters are handled with quality, and the
colts are turned back out with positive lessons and a
positive mindset, so the "starting" process is uneventful
and quiet. "All the groundwork you see me doing this
weekend you can be doing with your weanlings. I’m not
going to give you a specific schedule; give ‘em what
you’ve got, but get something good going."

> >But when he starts some monster that folks have ruined with *their*
> >previous handling, by necessity it's a bigger deal. <snip>
>
> > At one clinic this year, three of the colt-starting
> >participants were so rank that the owners backed the trailers up to the
> >round pen and swung open the gates to let 'em rip. Are the first 20
> >minutes of those encounters exciting? You bet, but whose fault is it?
> >The previous handlers! Any "excitement" that ensues has been caused by clueless previous handling.
>
> No. That "excitement" does NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. That is my point.

Oh yes it does, if the horse says it does. These horses have learned in
a BIG way that when they pressure the human, the human will back down.
The only way to show them otherwise is to turn up the expectations to
the point where they will try to mow over the human, and then change
their plans.

Anything else is just tap-dancing around the problem, and will give you
a FALSE SENSE of how well-prepared the horse is. If you never really
pressure him, you'll never find out that he cracks under pressure. But
then someday you'll be in a position of pressure, and find out that the
horse wasn't really reliable after all. And *that* can be dangerous.

Think about it a moment, Laura. When the horse comes into the round
pen, all Buck wants from it at first is to walk forward on the halter
rope when he offers the invitation with an upraised hand, and maintain a
proper "bubble" of personal space between them. Is that so dastardly?
Is that so demanding? Is that so impossible to expect?

What happens is that Buck makes this simple request by "offering the
good deal" (an upraised leading hand), perhaps an upraised driving hand
holding the tail of the halter rope, and he would be pleased and reward
the horse if he gets just what I've described (willing walking steps
forward). But the spoiled horses plant their feet, run backwards,
strike, wheel around, sling their heads, shove their shoulders in, kick,
rear, and try to burst by Buck in one explosive movement. Hello, that's
usually why the horse is there in the clinic in the first place!

Buck has to change their plans, and you don't turn such a horse into a
reliable riding horse by stroking him on the neck and telling him it
will be okay. And you don't do it like most folks do: getting things
halfway okay, and then hopping on and hoping for the best, while
dragging and yanking a dull-response creature around for the rest of his
life.

As the country music song says, "Pressure makes diamonds." Don't be
afraid of it, use it to make your horses truly safe, not just seemingly
safe.

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

On the issue of longeing, Jackie wrote:
>
> On 12 Aug 1998 20:57:35 GMT, alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
>

> >This is a unique understanding that I hadnt seen exhibited here before.
>

> Oh it's unique all right - Buck stated that what he was looking at had
> been PRODUCED by lunging; it was the very thing that had put it wrong
> in the first place!
>
> This was no rank horse, and as for Buck only working spoiled horses
> who'd owners had never taught them acceptable behaviour, perhaps we
> migh look again at WHAT KIND of horse sparked his comment on lunging:
>
> "The five-year-old pinto Warmblood stallion had been scoring above 70
> percent in his Training Level dressage tests and earning scores in the
> 20s in the dressage phase at local horse trials. Most people would be
> thrilled with that record of success, but the owner of this dramatic
> black-and-white stallion wanted more. She’d had a taste of what it
> felt like to ride a horse that Buck has refined, and she wanted it for
> this horse. While a lot of things were going well for this horse, the
> goal for him in this clinic was to build a lightness and crispness
> that he didn’t show—even if it’s a level beyond what dressage judges
> expect or reward.
>
> Buck attributed part of the horse’s aloofness to longeing, which he
> says will teach a horse to travel mindlessly, "like a blonde," he says
> with a mischievous grin........."
>
> Lets stick to the facts shall we?
>

I'm glad you posted the context, Jackie, because even I missed it in the
jumble of out-of-order posts that I'm wading through on my return from
the Asheville clinic!

On the issue of longeing, Buck makes a pretty compelling case for
longeing being the root-cause behind many a horse that travels aloof,
head tipped to the outside, mindlessly travelling circles without much
regard for the human.

After my large pony hunter came back from lease (in which longeing
figured prominently), I found that characteristic in him as well, and it
made it darned hard to get him "hooked on" in the round pen. He seemed
perfectly content to tune out and travel miles of circles, rather than
just tip his head in, soften, and acknowledge. What a change from the
pony that went out on lease a year earlier!

(On an aside note, in a post on another thread, I said that only one of
my five horses had influence of outside riding, but I forgot about my
little man going out on lease in 1991-92, which now seems
inconceivable! Sorry for the oversight!)

Anyway, back to longeing... When you see what Buck means by "fineness,"
"lightness," and "crisp response"--and see what an art it is to achieve
that level of accomplishment on the end of a 12-foot halter-rope--it's
clear why it's absurd to think the average horseowner can accomplish
that with 25 feet of canvas line between them and the horse.

What about headset? Longeline aficionados tend to be fond of side-reins
for that purpose, and as Bill described so nicely on another thread,
side-reins have their limitations in that they cannot truly give the
horse a release, and therefore can very quickly teach him to travel with
a false collection--if he doesn't flip over first.

A horseman skilled in round-pen techniques can achieve so much of the
desired longeline result--in a much purer form--with the horse at
liberty, and that's why Buck calls longeing "obsolete."

I've seen him demonstrate a broad range of liberty maneuvers; it's
pretty remarkable. With judiciously timed pressures and releases from
across the round pen, he can get the horse to travel with appropriate
lateral flexion, a rounded longitudinal frame, at any gait and any speed
within that gait, managing the smoothness and balance of transitions
between gaits, and by "driving with invisible lines" move the horse
through serpentines, half-circles, and voltes without any physical link
between them. He can choose a spot, name it, and get the horse to "hook
on" at that spot, yielding the hindquarters across. He can get the
horse to perform balanced turns on the haunches and turns on the
forehand, at liberty, back with head down and in and proper rhythm, and
more.

When you've seen that in action, it seems downright primitive to try to
seek these results by having the horse on the end of a clunky ole
longeline. Yea, yea, not all of us have round pens. I don't have one.
But I'd be the first to acknowledge the clear value of a round pen over
constraint-based approaches for achieving these results.

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>

> The colt starting process as practiced by Buck is an abrupt and
> abreviated version of the care and time a proper starting under saddle
> would be. Just suddenly saddling a horse up one day and allowing it to
> buck if it wants is but one example of this provoking shortcut in
> action. We've discussed others here as well.

You call it provoking--an inflammatory and inaccurate description.
Having done things the old way (which sorta matches your preferential
method) and seeing Buck's way, I quickly abandoned the old way, because
it's simply and clearly NOT AS SAFE nor as effective in creating good
relations with the horse.

I worked for five years at a training center that started young
Thoroughbreds for the track, and I worked as a colt-starting
professional for local breeders for years, and I started all of my own
horses under saddle using the methods I had learned at the TB racehorse
training center. And by golly, I was QUICK to see the merits of Buck's
methods over what I had successfully used for all those years on so many
horses. I value my safety and the good attitude of my horses, and it
was so darned obvious that everything about Buck's approach was
superior. I know this statement raises hackles among traditionalists,
but I can't imagine why! Personally, I was thrilled to discover that
after 25 years in the horse biz, there was something so good and so much
better revealed to me. It was like opening up a box of treasure; I was
so excited, and I wish I could turn back time and have back in my care
all the horses I've owned and ridden in the past before learning this
way.

Fundamental to my delight was the issue of creating a really gentle
horse, really safe--compared to what I used to accept as "ready." Trust
me Laura, taking it slow by no means increases a horse's readiness.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, seen the light!

By tip-toeing around the horse and keeping everything nicey-nicey, you
create a false sense of his preparedness and his responses to pressure.
My horses didn't buck when I first saddled them, nor when I first rode
them, but heck, I wouldn't have minded a BIT if they'd discovered at a
young and impressionable age that bucking is not the way to get out of
pressure. Why are folks so darned pleased that their horses have missed
out on that valuable lesson?

> >Perhaps you have some
> >way of training horses that doesn't involve asking them to respond to
> >your requests?
>

> Straw man. Training horses involves asking them to respond to
> requests, period. The *manner* in which this is accomplished is the
> topic of debate here.

>
> >So you think it should all be slower, quieter, and less spectacular?
>

> BINGO.

>
> >Not with the ruined animals that folks tend to bring to the
> >Colt-Starting session, Laura. I have personally seen that a good number
> >of these animals are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
> >How long would *you* advise keeping him in that state?
>

> Podhajsky said "I have time".

Time to allow the horse to remain tormented? Remain fearful? Remain
angry and embittered? This is somehow a good thing, Laura? I can't
imagine that even Podhajsky would allow a horse to remain in a mental
and physical state where he was a danger to himself and to others, and
prone to all the health risks that come with an anguished state of mind.

> >> "you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
> >> colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment."
> >
> >Laura, with your judicious editing, you're conveniently obscuring the
> >obvious fact that he was referring to members of the audience, not to
> >himself.
>

> So what goes for the audience does'nt go for him?
>
> I thought he was teaching folks how he himself teaches the horse.

He was offering folks a touch of wry humor, his trademark.
Where's yours?

> >Re-read the clinic reports and you'll see that he is saddened
> >by the sorry state that most of the horses arrive in, and by the trouble
> >that they have to go through to get right inside. Sure, you could sneak
> >around the horse and try to keep everything so quiet and calm that he'd
> >never push back, but if you did that, you would never be getting him
> >right, just kidding yourself.
>

> Why is "sneaking around" the only other option ever given?
>
> How about a gradual introduction to more difficult tasks and
> situations, building on the trust and knowledge gained over time and
> experience? IOW, *preparing* the horse to handle increasingly
> difficult tasks, instead of overpowering him with a new situation and
> status in life in one to three days?

You've just perfectly described "sneaking around" the horse!!! If you
never pressure the horse, you'll never find out how he responds to
pressure. And that is why so many "broke" horses can't load worth a
darn, have to wear little bonnets to protect their heads from what they
do while unloading, bolt through gates and stall doors, drag their
handlers around on the lead line, flee like quail when they experience
the simplest stimuli, and such. As I said before:

>
> >Very often, you don't identify the braces
> >and resistances until you actually ask the horse to DO something. Sure,
> >you could train him by never actually asking him to do anything unless
> >he seemed to want to do it anyway, but then you'd likely get a nasty
> >surprise the first time he didn't.
>

> I would rather first address WHY the horse "did'nt want"
> (anthropomorphism alert) to do something. Most often there is a real
> physical reason for that. Buck apparently does'nt agree.

No, he doesn't agree, and neither to I. What you describe sounds like
looking for excuses for why the horse isn't obliging you, which is a lot
easier than admitting poor training. It's like parents practically
boasting that their children have to be drugged for Attention Deficit
Disorder, which they'd prefer rather than think they had failed to teach
their child patience, focus, and intrinsic motivation.

> My horses are willing because I've never placed them in danger, hurt
> them or asked something that they are not physically or mentally
> capable of.

So are the horses that Buck handles. You'd probably be surprised to
find that horses are physically and mentally capable of handling a lot
more than you think. Given that the horses in these clinics begin their
sessions with stiff, awkward, braced-up movement, stepping all over
themselves and cantering disunited and such... and end up the session
travelling with quality--flowing movement with appropriate lateral
flexion, true leads, and smooth control of all quarters--you can't say
they weren't physically prepared for their tasks. Given that the horses
in the clinic finish each encounter in a significantly better state of
mind than they started, you have no basis for saying they weren't
mentally prepared for what they experienced!

I imagine it's a dilemma for you, if you're so certain that this stuff
is harmful to the horse, to see that horse after horse after horse after
horse is so substantially improved after exposure to it! Must be hard
to reconcile, eh!

> I would be interested in a follow-up on this particular horse,
> Sylvana. Any chance you could keep us updated on him since he's in
> your area?

I don't know where he is from; folks come from Florida, Tennessee,
Georgia, South Carolina, and Virginia to attend Buck's clinics in North
Carolina. I have only previously seen this rider at Buck's clinics, not
in my local horse community. She might well be local, but I don't know
of her. But she's a capable rider; I have no doubts that they'll
progress well together.

> >Isn't it funny that the folks who ride in his clinics and actually
> >understand this stuff in action tend to come back again and again, and
> >get new benefits every time, while the critics are the ones who have
> >never tried it?
>

> Some folks just aren't independent thinkers. Some are looking for a
> guru. Its human nature. It does'nt necessarily mean he's the World's
> Greatest Horse Trainer.

Think about it a minute, Laura. Just who would be the independent
thinkers here: the ones who steadfastly refuse to even acknowledge that
there might be a better way, much less give it a try... or the ones who
were open-minded enough to question 30+ years of dogma and make a
right-angle turn into a better way!

--Sylvana

[Sylvana Smith]

AlaTmPnr wrote:

> These discussions started off with a refreshing repartee and some
> discerning knowledge of horses. It was quite enjoyable. Now ya'll have lowered
> yourselves to the level of chickens squabbling in the dust and it is not a
> pretty sight. But if that is where ya'll are comfortable, then enjoy the dust
> bath.LOL

Heh, heh. Now *that's* an image! Makes me think about my beagle out in
the paddock having her vigorous morning dirt bath, flat on her back just
a 'wigglin' and a'waggin. It means she's ready for another bath and
hydrocortisone spritz. Wonder what the rec.eq equivalent is?

> When ya'll can argue from knowledge and not just your interpretation of
> the facts then I guess I will start reading again.
> This is me sitting on the sidelines waiting for the dust to settle.

Hear hear! You've probably noticed two distinct camps on this subject:

(1) Those who have seen this stuff in action, been heartened
by the transformation that comes over the horses under
this brand of handling, and think it has clear merit, and

(2) Those who have never seen it in action and are sure
it's a crock.

Since a mutually beneficial relationship with my horses is extremely
important to me, I'm glad that someone cared enough to tell *me* about
this stuff all those years ago. Bless you Jan, I owe you forever! My
horses and I have been reaping the benefits ever since. I'll never
figure out why folks are so hostile to even considering methods that
produce such calm, happy, and willing horses. I can guess six
possibilities though:

(1) They've devoted a lot of time and emotional energy to
trying to master the skills they've got, and are not
keen on the idea of becoming a virtual beginner again
in a new set of skills.

(2) They are convinced that what they've got is as good
as it gets, and there's nothing more to learn.

(3) They prefer a combative relationship with their horses,
and so are not intrigued by a method that rejects such
behavior and renders it completely unnecessary.

(4) They secretly wish to learn more about it and give it
a try, but are loathe to admit lack of knowledge in
any area pertaining to horsemanship. I can testify
that it's a humbling experience to be new at it, and
struggling with it, when you're accustomed to thinking
of yourself as accomplished in horsemanship!

(5) They are unable to recognize nuance or the package--
philosophical, mental, physical--that makes up the
method, and therefore cannot distinguish it from what
they think they already do.

(6) They bristle at the merest notion that there might
be something better than the way they're doing it.
Been there, it *is* hard to accept, when you've
accepted something else for so long!

Whatever the reasons for rec.eq critics and all their dust-stirring
chicken-squabbling, I'll still happily share my clinic notes and
explanations, because I've seen what a win-win situation it is for the
horses, and I think more of 'em should have that privilege!

--Sylvana

[Tom Stovall]

Sylvana Smith wrote:

[...]

> Hear hear! You've probably noticed two distinct camps on this
> subject:
>
> (1) Those who have seen this stuff in action, been heartened
> by the transformation that comes over the horses under
> this brand of handling, and think it has clear merit, and
>
> (2) Those who have never seen it in action and are sure
> it's a crock.

In your haste to display your vast repertoire of logical fallacies, you
have left out a third of many possibilities:

(3) Those Tejanos who have seen the similar stuff in action most of
their lives, recognize it as the same stuff the jinetes were doing
in South Texas before Uncle Buck was a gleam in his daddy's eye, who
wonder why all the gunsels are making such a fuss over something
that most South Texas kids get with mother's milk. Folks from other
parts of the rural West are probably similarly perplexed at all the
hoopla and cult-like nonsense attendant to folks like yourself who
think they have found a piece of horse training's One True Cross.

[acres of gushing fluff deleted]

Is it too late to get your money back?

Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall

[Lynn Wilhelm]

Sylvana Smith wrote:

> Please re-read my clinic report and you'll see a *direct quote* that
> tells you that he has no objection to the longeline as it is used by the
> greatest dressage masters of the world.
>
> He *does* have objections to the way most backyard horseowners and
> dressage wannabes use it, and having seen countless examples, I have to
> agree with him!
>
> The reason longeing becomes obsolete with Buck's method is that the
> supposed aims of longeing are better achieved with round pen work and
> intelligent riding, Buck says--and then he goes on to prove it, live.

Just what are those "supposed aims" of longeing, Sylvana?

As has so often been stated here, many people have different aims--some
I consider bad, some good. If you and Buck consider *all* of those aims
better achieved with round pen work than you've completely lost me.

I don't like to hear anyone say always or never--nothing concerning
horses is so absolute!

Lynn

[Jim & Laura Behning]

Sylvana Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

>Laura, *you're* the one deliberately provoking! You know from the
>descriptions of everybody on this newsgroup who has actually *seen* this
>method in action that no "provoking" takes place.

Maybe you meant "everyone who's willing to talk about what they've
seen live and in person". Several of us have seen tapes, doesn't that
count?

The colt starting process as practiced by Buck is an abrupt and
abreviated version of the care and time a proper starting under saddle
would be. Just suddenly saddling a horse up one day and allowing it to
buck if it wants is but one example of this provoking shortcut in
action. We've discussed others here as well.

>Perhaps you have some

>way of training horses that doesn't involve asking them to respond to
>your requests?

Straw man. Training horses involves asking them to respond to
requests, period. The *manner* in which this is accomplished is the
topic of debate here.

>So you think it should all be slower, quieter, and less spectacular?

BINGO.

>Not with the ruined animals that folks tend to bring to the
>Colt-Starting session, Laura. I have personally seen that a good number
>of these animals are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
>How long would *you* advise keeping him in that state?

Podhajsky said "I have time".

>> "you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start

>> colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment."
>
>Laura, with your judicious editing, you're conveniently obscuring the
>obvious fact that he was referring to members of the audience, not to
>himself.

So what goes for the audience does'nt go for him?

I thought he was teaching folks how he himself teaches the horse.

>Re-read the clinic reports and you'll see that he is saddened

>by the sorry state that most of the horses arrive in, and by the trouble
>that they have to go through to get right inside. Sure, you could sneak
>around the horse and try to keep everything so quiet and calm that he'd
>never push back, but if you did that, you would never be getting him
>right, just kidding yourself.

Why is "sneaking around" the only other option ever given?

How about a gradual introduction to more difficult tasks and
situations, building on the trust and knowledge gained over time and
experience? IOW, *preparing* the horse to handle increasingly
difficult tasks, instead of overpowering him with a new situation and
status in life in one to three days?

>Very often, you don't identify the braces

>and resistances until you actually ask the horse to DO something. Sure,
>you could train him by never actually asking him to do anything unless
>he seemed to want to do it anyway, but then you'd likely get a nasty
>surprise the first time he didn't.

I would rather first address WHY the horse "did'nt want"
(anthropomorphism alert) to do something. Most often there is a real
physical reason for that. Buck apparently does'nt agree.

My horses are willing because I've never placed them in danger, hurt

them or asked something that they are not physically or mentally
capable of.

>Anyone with a lick of horse-sense can see the mental state of the horses

>that are brought to Buck for starting or reclamation. Give the auditors
>that much credit!

I did'nt see what he stated as fact re: each horse on the tapes, and
neither have a bunch of other viewers of those same tapes.

I had written in a previous post:

>>I was
>> particularly distressed to read in Sylvana's clinic report (thanks for
>> posting it Sylvana, even if I don't agree with much of what seemingly
>> went on there) that a 3 year old who had sustained broken vertebrae in
>> his neck was used in a Buck clinic. What was THAT horse's owner
>> thinking?
>
>She was thinking that her horse was now clearly sound,

I hope her vet Oked the horse's participation in the clinic. The tight
figure eight/circles against the fence, hindquarter disengagement
exercises, and bending Buck does are not easy things for a horse
recovering from such a significant neck injury.

>powerful,
>dangerous, and ready to start on a productive career instead of bucking
>off his trainers. Buck agreed. And at the end of three days, the owner
>received a polite, attentive, nice-moving riding horse on which she can
>continue the good work. She's no newcomer to this method either, having
>ridden in Buck's clinics previously (on a stallion, too, so she's no
>newcomer to handling stallions).

I would be interested in a follow-up on this particular horse,

Sylvana. Any chance you could keep us updated on him since he's in
your area?

>Isn't it funny that the folks who ride in his clinics and actually

>understand this stuff in action tend to come back again and again, and
>get new benefits every time, while the critics are the ones who have
>never tried it?

Some folks just aren't independent thinkers. Some are looking for a
guru. Its human nature. It does'nt necessarily mean he's the World's
Greatest Horse Trainer.

I do look forward to your next clinic report nonetheless.

[AlaTmPnr]

>>This fully mature horse had no previous training, except how to push his
owners around at feeding time. With no drama and no gimmicks, I had him
yielding to all my movements at liberty and on the halter rope in the round pen
on Day One, saddled and rode him in the round pen at all gaits in a halter and
loose rope on Day Two, rode him at all gaits in the indoor arena in the snaffle
on Day Three, in the outdoor arena on Day four, in the pasture on Day 5, on the
trails on Day Six--all without a harsh moment between us.<<

This is as it should be if started quietly and no fuss........ I usually like a
lot more time as I like to establish whoa from the ground and from the saddle
the first couple of rides before take them outside. We have heavy woods and a
horse taking out through the tules is a good way to get hurt.

>>I returned the horse to the owners
in three weeks, because there was just nothing more that he needed to know in
order to be a good riding horse for their 14-year-old daughter, and he was
soft, light, and giving in all his skills.<<

Excuse me! You turned a green broke horse over to a 14yo? Must have been a
helluva rider! I do what I get paid for but I like 90 days on a horse
.........I just like that little bit of extra seasoning.

>>Knowing that he was a just-started 4-year-old, a lotta folks gathered around
when it was time to load him into my two-horse to get him home, but I declined
their assistance and he loaded himself while I stood by outside, just as I knew
he would. <<

You only need the help if the horse doesnt know how to load and unload. Basic
training is a wonderful thing.

I was on the Alabama Wagon train 3 years ago and there was a person that had
brought their horse out in a stock trailer. The horse had loaded just fine and
unloaded fairly quietly according to the owner. Well half way through the ride
the owner is saddle sore and wants to go home. She brought in her two horse
straight load........ and attempted to load it. The horse wasnt having any
part of it LOL. So she enlisted the aid of a couple of bystanders to help load
her horse. They started off linking arms.... well the horse just sat down.
Then they went to the butt rope they pulled and pulled and that horse did the
same thing...... so then they got a whip and wailed on that horse six or seven
times. I asked the owner if she wanted help? She was in tears by this time
and she wasnt sure what to do. She finally said to go ahead as the horse was
getting scared and was rearing. I got everyone to let go of the horse and let
me have it and I led it away from the trailer and walked it around and checked
to see how well it was leading and if I could send it ahead with just an arm
signal and all of that seemed to work. I led the horse back and started
working it toward the trailer......each step forward was rewarded. As soon as
it stopped no reward but just let it sit there and think about what was going
on. No threat no fuss no muss. When the horse appeared willing to go forward
I asked it did......... within about 30 minutes of patient asking I had the
horse loaded. The owner was all for jumping in the truck and running. I
advised that she should unload and load the horse 5 or 6 more times but she was
so afraid that it was a fluke that the horse loaded she didnt want to take any
chances. She left. I wonder if that horse loads? Probably not .... no basic
training in loading in a two horse.

Bill

[AlaTmPnr]

Sylvana,

>>Time to allow the horse to remain tormented? Remain fearful? Remain
angry and embittered? This is somehow a good thing, Laura? I can't imagine
that even Podhajsky would allow a horse to remain in a mental and physical
state where he was a danger to himself and to others, and
prone to all the health risks that come with an anguished state of mind.<<

Noble sentiments but I would think that Buck is quickly establishing an ALPHA
relationship with the horse since that is most of their social interactions. I
would especially if the horse doesnt respect humans. I want that horse to
quickly realize that Im alpha. You can do this without roping the horse but it
takes longer.

>>Some folks just aren't independent thinkers. Some are looking for a guru.
Its human nature. It does'nt necessarily mean he's the World's Greatest Horse
Trainer.

Think about it a minute, Laura. Just who would be the independent thinkers
here: the ones who steadfastly refuse to even acknowledge that there might be
a better way, much less give it a try... or the ones who
were open-minded enough to question 30+ years of dogma and make aright-angle
turn into a better way!<<

All very interesting LOL. There are some people that have just got to have one
way of doing things. One person can be that for those people. Then there are
people like myself who are so contrary that one person's opinion isnt enough.
We sort of pick and choose and come up with our own way. Then there are
people who to ask to change from known procedures to the unknown is like asking
a drowning man to stand up. If he stands up he is saved but he is so convinced
that there is no bottom he cant bring himself to do it. Training horses is a
lot like that LOL.

Bill

[AlaTmPnr]

Jane,

>>A person who attends these colt-starting clinics can learn from them, but
then need to look to the best guru of them all - the Horse.<<

Agreed. Time and wet saddle blankets is the best teacher in some instances.

Bill

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <35D203...@nt.com>,

sylvan...@nt.com wrote:
> On the subject of Buck's low opinion of longeing,

(snipped)

> The reason longeing becomes obsolete with Buck's method is that the
> supposed aims of longeing are better achieved with round pen work and
> intelligent riding, Buck says--and then he goes on to prove it, live.

So what are the "supposed aims of lungeing" and
how are each of those "aims" "better achieved
with round pen work?"

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <
199808122057...@ladder03.new
s.aol.com>,

alat...@aol.com (AlaTmPnr) wrote:
> Jane,
>
> >>You are crossing two different types of approaches to horse training.
> Buckaroo Buck doesn't use lungeing. Lungeing is not the best tool to use for
> horses with unacceptable behavior. He works with spoiled horses who were never
> taught acceptable behavior by their owners/<<
>

> This is a unique understanding that I hadnt seen exhibited here before.

> Congrats on stating what I have heard he does so eloquently.

I don't know if he does it "eloguently" or not, but I
do know his reliance on the rope is something that
most people who attend could not handle.

There are other clinicians who do the same thing
only use methods/tools that the average person
can use.

> >>Buckeroo Buck promotes himself in one area and doesn't get into the finesse
> of higher levels of ground work.<<

> Generally speaking isnt this because there isnt enough time to cover this type
> of activity?

This is why I stated it. These "colt-starting"
clinicians focus on problems mainly.

>To properly do ground work you have to have a knowledge of the
> horse and a feel for when you get it, would you not?

You have to have a knowledge of Horse and the
ability to communicate with the Horse in its own
language regardless if you do ground work, ride or
are simply a caretaker.

>And judging from the
> descriptions of the horses brought to him the people who would be doing the
> ground work just dont have that knowledge or their horses wouldnt be the mess
> they are.

Obviously, they don't. Look at Sylvana who has
been to 11 of Buckaroo Buck's starting clinics.
And she still has problems.

A person who attends these colt-starting clinics
can learn from them, but then need to look to the
best guru of them all - the Horse.

> I heard at one time Buck used to teach people how to start their own horses
> like Ray Hunt does. Then he went to this Monty Roberts format and I dont know

> that you get as much out of it. I really dont care for someone else handling
> my horse regardless of his reputed abilities.

I don't know what his background is, nor do I care
about him as a person one way or the other.

There are many methods/tools to work with a
horse. It doesn't matter which one a person
chooses as long as the person understands the tool,
how it communicates to the Horse, the individual
Horse, the circumstances and the skills of the
person.

Buckaroo Buck is only one person and he loves his
rope. I have found in my years of experiences, the
average person can't handle a rope well and it
leads to more problems.

One doesn't need a rope to work with spoiled
horses.

down the tejas trails.....

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <35D231...@nt.com>,

sylvan...@nt.com wrote:
> Jim & Laura Behning wrote:

(snipped)

re: Buckaroo buck's entertainment of colt-
starting

> > No. That "excitement" does NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. That is my point.
>
> Oh yes it does, if the horse says it does. These horses have learned in
> a BIG way that when they pressure the human, the human will back down.
> The only way to show them otherwise is to turn up the expectations to
> the point where they will try to mow over the human, and then change
> their plans.

This is a total bunch of bull. "Turning up" the
horse is ridiculous just to show something. It is at
the expense of the horse.

Horse training even re-training is not all that
exciting. It's working with a Horse in its own
language. Getting a horse excited and "turned up"
is not a good approach IMO.

> If you never really
> pressure him, you'll never find out that he cracks under pressure.

So you'd rather chase them, buck them out, choke
them or whatever just so you can see them crack;
then tell the horse he done did wrong.

Think you better attend another 100 clinics. You
need all the help you can get.

>But the spoiled horses plant their feet, run backwards,
> strike, wheel around, sling their heads, shove their shoulders in, kick,
> rear, and try to burst by Buck in one explosive movement.

So good ol' Buckaroo Buck applies the choke down,
chases them around the pen or throws the rope at
them. So much for the NH method of gentleness,
spirtual communications, etc.

In all the years I've re-trained spoiled horses, it
certainly wasn't constantly the rip-roaring
excitement that Buckaroo Buck loves to show.

down the tejas trails....

[jkil...@mcia.com]

In article <35D21D...@nt.com>,
sylvan...@nt.com wrote:
(snipped parts)

> > I heard at one time Buck used to teach people how to start their own horses

> > like Ray Hunt does. Then he went to this [demonstration] format and I dont know

> > that you get as much out of it.

All of the colt-starting clinicians I've seen or
heard about started with one on one clinics but
switched over to demo formats for several
reasons. The main reason is that they can get
better income as it isn't so limiting. They can also
demonstrate more by only working each horse for
a short time.

The above was told to be by several clinicians I've
interviewed over the years.

down the tejas trails.....

[Joyce Reynolds-Ward]

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:23:11 -0400, Sylvana Smith
<sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

snip

>No, he doesn't agree, and neither to I. What you describe sounds like
>looking for excuses for why the horse isn't obliging you, which is a lot
>easier than admitting poor training. It's like parents practically
>boasting that their children have to be drugged for Attention Deficit
>Disorder, which they'd prefer rather than think they had failed to teach
>their child patience, focus, and intrinsic motivation.

Sylvana, you show your extreme ignorance by making this statement.

Genuine ADD/ADHD canNOT be trained out of the child, and by making
this statement you put yourself into the class of know it all jerks
who want to blame a hardwired problem within the child upon the
parents. People like you with that sort of attitude are a parent's
worst nightmare--the know it all who knows nothing of the reality.
While there are behavior mods that can work, a *genuine* ADD/ADHD
child is physically unable to pay attention. There's too much input,
too many things to pay attention to, too much stimulation. Milder
cases can function without meds, but in most cases it's a combination
of meds and behavioral training which wins the day.

The biggest problem with ADD/ADHD is that there are syndromes out
there which present themselves as being very similar to ADD/ADHD. I
know this one well, because I have a kid that, if I'd listened to his
early preschool teachers and some self-proclaimed experts, would have
been misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD. However, his real problem was a speech
and expressive language disorder. Dealing with this situation and
providing adequate remedial exposure to train him to deal with this
situation has required different approaches to kid handling,
*including* the ability to read human body language. Interestingly,
teaching this child how to work with horses seems to have increased
his own sensitivity to human body language. His own particular
problem is actually more on the autistic continuum than on the
ADD/ADHD continuum--and I defy you to make the same ignorant statement
about autistics that you just did about ADD/ADHD kids. You'd be
roasted alive. And, btw, equine therapy is strongly recommended for
autistic kids.

I have seen genuine ADD/ADHD kids, many who have other problems as
well (dyslexia, dyscalcula, etc). Off their meds, they just plain
don't have impulse control.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever seen an equine exhibiting ADD/ADHD
type of behaviors, although I'm sure they exist. But there's a
difference between active alert horses and humans and ADD/ADHD horses
and humans. In both cases, horses and humans alike, the creatures in
question are also quite bright.

snip

>Think about it a minute, Laura. Just who would be the independent
>thinkers here: the ones who steadfastly refuse to even acknowledge that
>there might be a better way, much less give it a try... or the ones who
>were open-minded enough to question 30+ years of dogma and make a
>right-angle turn into a better way!

Yeah, right. I'm not convinced what Buck's pitching is new stuff, or
all that better or different from what I've seen out there. Maybe
it's new to you because you come from an East Coast, hunt seat
tradition. But a lot of what I see on Buck's videos isn't that new to
me. Then again, Oregon's a lot closer to Montana than the Carolinas.

Meanwhile, I've actually observed a rather bright horse who's figured
out how to disengage the hindquarters as an evasion technique. Smart
boy, that one--and one that when he first went into training I would
have thought was an equine ADHD sort.

So how would *you* deal with that one, hmm?

jrw

[Snezewort]

Sylvana Smith <sylvan...@nt.com said:

>Hear hear! You've probably noticed two distinct camps on this subject:
>
>(1) Those who have seen this stuff in action, been heartened
> by the transformation that comes over the horses under
> this brand of handling, and think it has clear merit, and
>
>(2) Those who have never seen it in action and are sure
> it's a crock.
>

Conveniently leaving out door number 3:

Those who have seen it in action and are sure it's a crock.

Deb Hendrickson
Duluth, Minnesota
Snez...@aol.com

[Jim & Laura Behning]

Sylvana Smith <sylvan...@nt.com> wrote:

<lots snipped to condense to the basic points of disagreement>

>
>Fundamental to my delight was the issue of creating a really gentle
>horse, really safe--compared to what I used to accept as "ready." Trust
>me Laura, taking it slow by no means increases a horse's readiness.
>Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, seen the light!

Your experience differs greatly from my own.

>By tip-toeing around the horse and keeping everything nicey-nicey, you
>create a false sense of his preparedness and his responses to pressure.

I don't "tip-toe" around them; they are exposed to MUCH before I ever
even start work under saddle. In fact we get real creative doing just
that. Check out my web pages, I even have a few pictures there ;-).

>My horses didn't buck when I first saddled them, nor when I first rode
>them, but heck, I wouldn't have minded a BIT if they'd discovered at a
>young and impressionable age that bucking is not the way to get out of
>pressure. Why are folks so darned pleased that their horses have missed
>out on that valuable lesson?

Because bucking is a fear/defensive reaction. No need for the horse to
feel defensive or fearful.

>> >Not with the ruined animals that folks tend to bring to the
>> >Colt-Starting session, Laura. I have personally seen that a good number
>> >of these animals are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
>> >How long would *you* advise keeping him in that state?
>>
>> Podhajsky said "I have time".
>
>Time to allow the horse to remain tormented? Remain fearful? Remain
>angry and embittered? This is somehow a good thing, Laura? I can't
>imagine that even Podhajsky would allow a horse to remain in a mental
>and physical state where he was a danger to himself and to others, and
>prone to all the health risks that come with an anguished state of mind.

"An anguished state of mind"? Another anthropormorphism alert! I'll
grant that the animal may become upset or agitated but only when the
human, which he equates with pain or threat, is around. So- don't be
painful or threatening when you're around said horse. Change that
negative association to a positive one.

>> >> "you’ll get to the point where folks won’t want to watch you start
>> >> colts any more, because you don’t provide any entertainment."
>> >
>> >Laura, with your judicious editing, you're conveniently obscuring the
>> >obvious fact that he was referring to members of the audience, not to
>> >himself.
>>
>> So what goes for the audience does'nt go for him?
>>
>> I thought he was teaching folks how he himself teaches the horse.
>
>He was offering folks a touch of wry humor, his trademark.
>Where's yours?

I must have missed that it was a joke. I don't find his "wry humor"
funny, myself.

>> How about a gradual introduction to more difficult tasks and
>> situations, building on the trust and knowledge gained over time and
>> experience? IOW, *preparing* the horse to handle increasingly
>> difficult tasks, instead of overpowering him with a new situation and
>> status in life in one to three days?
>
>You've just perfectly described "sneaking around" the horse!!! If you
>never pressure the horse, you'll never find out how he responds to
>pressure.

I never said "never pressure the horse". I said "work up to it".

>> I would rather first address WHY the horse "did'nt want"
>> (anthropomorphism alert) to do something. Most often there is a real
>> physical reason for that. Buck apparently does'nt agree.
>
>No, he doesn't agree, and neither to I. What you describe sounds like
>looking for excuses for why the horse isn't obliging you, which is a lot
>easier than admitting poor training.

If the animal vets out, you then work on the training. Very simple,
really.

Some horses are simply physically unsuited or even incapable of
certain disciplines. That's a biomechanical fact.

>You'd probably be surprised to
>find that horses are physically and mentally capable of handling a lot
>more than you think. Given that the horses in these clinics begin their
>sessions with stiff, awkward, braced-up movement, stepping all over
>themselves and cantering disunited and such... and end up the session
>travelling with quality--flowing movement with appropriate lateral
>flexion, true leads, and smooth control of all quarters--you can't say
>they weren't physically prepared for their tasks. Given that the horses
>in the clinic finish each encounter in a significantly better state of
>mind than they started, you have no basis for saying they weren't
>mentally prepared for what they experienced!

Horses are certainly remarkably adaptive creatures, aren't they?

>I imagine it's a dilemma for you,

You have an overactive imagination :-).

>if you're so certain that this stuff
>is harmful to the horse, to see that horse after horse after horse after
>horse is so substantially improved after exposure to it! Must be hard
>to reconcile, eh!

I don't consider them improved. Behind the bit, tired, robotic
looking, yes. And I'll not soon forget the sight of the 3 year old
stallion on his colt-starting tape- choked til he is heaving, wobbling
on his feet, and drenched in sweat, either.

>> I would be interested in a follow-up on this particular horse,
>> Sylvana. Any chance you could keep us updated on him since he's in
>> your area?
>
>I don't know where he is from; folks come from Florida, Tennessee,
>Georgia, South Carolina, and Virginia to attend Buck's clinics in North
>Carolina. I have only previously seen this rider at Buck's clinics, not
>in my local horse community. She might well be local, but I don't know
>of her. But she's a capable rider; I have no doubts that they'll
>progress well together.

I was'nt really worried so much about the rider. I was more worried
about how sound the *horse* was after the clinic. If you really wanted
to you could do that follow-up for me; I'm sure the clinic organizer
could put you in touch with that horse's owner (or give the person
your phone number).

>> Some folks just aren't independent thinkers. Some are looking for a
>> guru. Its human nature. It does'nt necessarily mean he's the World's
>> Greatest Horse Trainer.
>
>Think about it a minute, Laura. Just who would be the independent
>thinkers here: the ones who steadfastly refuse to even acknowledge that
>there might be a better way, much less give it a try... or the ones who
>were open-minded enough to question 30+ years of dogma and make a
>right-angle turn into a better way!

I was open minded enough to purchase the videos, and have stated I
would indeed still attend a clinic.

[ASimpCatDr]

jrw*********@********aracnet.com (Joyce Reynolds-Ward) Date: Wed, Aug 12, 1998
10:58 EDT wrote:

>Before you go too far on this, Alice, be aware that at least two of us
>critics have sat down and watched Buck videos

Absolutely no substitute for watching him in person all day for 3 days, or in
Sylvana's case, doing that many times over.
I've seen his videos, too, and got one heck of a lot more out of the clinic
than I did from the videos.

>I am, however, planning to go to a Jean-Claude Racinet clinic at the
>end of September. I figure that's a better use of my time and money
>than Brannaman.
>
If you're talking about the clinic in Oregon, I may see you there, because I'm
seriously considering going myself, to see if it is true what I've heard that
it's a case of "do as I say, not as I do," with Racinet. I love what he has
written and practice much of it myself, and have seen still photos, but have
never laid eyes on the man nor seen him in videos. The only way I can form a
valid opinion is to go see for myself. I suggest those of you who criticize
Brannaman without ever meeting him do the same.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Racinet clinic turns out to be a better use
of my time and money than the Brannaman clinic was.

Alice Simpson