Obit--death at radnor
Eileen G. Morgan
Keith S. Taylor of E. Coventry, W. Vincent
Keith S. Taylor, 32, of East Coventry and West Vincent, died Saturday,
October 10, 1998, from injuries sustained while participating in the
Radnor Hunt International Three-Day Event in Malvern.
Born in Philadelphia, he was the son of S. Keith and Mildred Edenborn
Taylor.
He was a 1984 graduate of Owen J. Roberts High School, and a 1992
graduate of West Chester University with a bachelor of science degree
in mathematics and physics.
He was a self-employed equestrian trainer and a horse trainer for his
entire career.
He was a member of the Zion Lutheran Church, Spring City.
He was a member of the U.S. Equestrian Team, Gladstone, New Jersey; a
member of the U.S. Horse Trials Foundation, California; and a member
of the American Pony Club, Level A, Lexington, Kentucky.
In addition to his parents, he is survived by his fiancee, Donna
Murphy of Coatesville; a sister, Elysia T. Ashburn of East Coventry;
and two nephews.
A memorial service will be held at 12:30 p.m., Wednesday, October 14,
at the Zion Lutheran Church, Route 724 and Bonnie Brae Road, Spring
City,with the Rev. Dr. Kenneth S. Nelson, pastor of the church,
officiating.
There will be no visitation prior to the service.
Interment will be in the adjoining church cemetery.
Memorial contributions may be made to the Zion Lutheran Church
Memorial
Fund, 39 Bonnie Brae Road, Spring City, Pa., 19475.
The Mare's Nest
"It is a beast for Perseus. He is pure air and fire; and the dull
elements of earth and water never appear in him, but in the
patient stillness while his rider mounts him.
He is indeed a horse . . . ." Shakespeare, Henry V
Jazanot
Jaz,
Midnight Rainbow, Allegra, Kinzua, and Bailar del Bravio
(whew what a mouthful!)
Donna M. Heron
info. on eventing. What goes into it? Why do people do it? Who does it? How
dangerous is it? Please call Donna Heron at 800-323-2060.
In article <36233a96...@news.ptd.net>, eg...@ptdprolog.net says...
Eileen G. Morgan
>What happened to him?
We had just arrivewd when the first horse went out on course, and we
heard the PA announcing the next few. By the time we walked down to
fence #1, there was a hold on the course. We stood around for about an
hour, hour and a half or so before we saw the helicopter life
flighting the rider to a hospital. Apparently there was some sort of
crash at fence 11 on cross country--they subsiquently removced the
jump from the course. The horse apparently came down on the riders
head and shoulders, causing eventually fatal damage. I know the first
few horses (maybe three?) did clear the fence, but I am not sure if
they also had difficulty or his fall was a fluke. One poor rider was
stopped during their round and waited all that time out on course with
the horse until she could go on--it was about a 2 hr delay all
together for the other riders. The crash occurred in the CCI* class.
eileen morgan
LordRebeau
there are many people who do eventing.. or what is called Three Day eventing
officially. It was originally developed as a military endeavor.. the first day
was for dressage, where the horse had to exhibit obedience and submission, day
two was cross country ( includes roads and tracks and steeplchase at the higher
levels) which showed courage, endurance and speed, finally on day three, the
horses did what is known as stadium jumping.. for two reasons.. to show
soundness after going cross country and to show the ability to come back and
work calmly.
Eventing is not the safest sport around, but they make every attempt to make it
safe.
There are 5 official levels in eventing. The lowest being novice, which
basically any back yard horse should be able to compete safely and
successfully. The horse's minimum age is 5 years old, riders must wear
approved saftey helmets and vest ( cross country) .. the next step up is
Training level.. you can start at either novice or training, which are usually
either one or two day events.. the cross country faze does not include roads
and tracks or stepplechase and these are commonly referred to as horse trials.
Prelim can have either horse trials or 3 day, but you have to have successfully
completed two horse trails at the prelim level prior to being allowed to do
prelim three day.. and the same kgoes for intermediate.. you have to qualify
and for the advanced level
Most riders realize the risk, which is greatest during cross country due to the
fact that the fences do not come down. It is my understanding that the rider
that died, his horse misjudged the fence and got caught by the fence above the
knees... sending the rideer over the horses head and then the horse flipped
over on top of him. The rider sustained massive internal injuries and died
during the lifeflight. There were paramedics on the scene immediately.. as
there is always an abulance and paramedics at an event , during the cross
country stage.
It was a fluke, although it happens a couple of times a year world wide.
Eventing is fairly popular in the US and has a long and strong history here.
The United State Pony Club is eventing oriented as well as safety oriented.
The two sites that I have provided for you can provide a wealth of information
You can find more information at the following sites
http://www.uset.ord
http://www.eventingusa.com
Nicole
Christine Nicole Navarro
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/hills/7373
Breeding Quality QH's and Ponies
Owner of the Sporthorse List
GBExcel
<< I know the first
few horses (maybe three?) did clear the fence, but I am not sure if
they also had difficulty or his fall was a fluke.>>
Keith was second on course. Fence 11 has been on the course for years, and, in
fact, Keith had jumped it successfully, with this horse and others, many times.
It was updated from time to time, of course, and I understand was actually
lowered for this year's event. The first rider on course went clean.
The only thing that can be said is that this was one of those situations where
bad luck hit hard. Keith was an excellent rider, the horse was a good horse,
experienced at this level. Nothing was "wrong" or going sour.... it was plainly
and simply bad luck--bad luck in the fall, bad luck in the type of fall. All
the crash vests and helmets in the world won't save you when 1200 pounds of
horse lands smack on top of you.
He was a very nice guy and will be missed very much.
Pat Thrasher
Wilmington, Dela-where?
Remove *goaway* to email me.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig.
GBExcel
The three day event is seen as the ultimate test of fitness and adaptability
for both horse and rider. It takes years of preparation to make a horse for the
Advanced level, and it takes years of very hard work and study to fit a rider
for that level too.
How dangerous is it? The USCTA (U.S. Combined Training Association) lists three
deaths in almost 50 years of organized competition in the U.S.
So it's more dangerous than straight dressage, but not as dangerous as, say,
any of the racing sports, hang gliding, sky diving, bull riding... probably not
as dangerous as field hunting (hound, horses, red coats type). The vast
majority of "eventers" never go past Preliminary level, and many stay down
around Novice/Training, just poot around the courses and have a ball without
serious risk to anyone or anything. <---- that's me <G> Maybe even Pre-Novice.
The courses are carefully designed by experts, built well out of high quality
materials; the terrain and footing are carefully considered and designed into
the obstacles; there are "easy" ways around/through any really difficult
obstacle; the safety equipment is pretty good. A really really picky person
might say that a more rigorous standard for moving up through the levels would
be good.... OTOH, there was absolutely no question that Keith Taylor was
qualified to be doing what he was doing, and the horse was too.
Eventing does take a toll on horses; it's not hugely uncommon for horses to be
permanently lamed or killed eventing. But it's not an everyday occurrence,
either, and most of the people involved will tell you flat out that they would
rather withdraw than hurt their horse, if only because of the incredible
investment in time and training and attachment you have to make to be
successful with a given horse.
Johdug
>How dangerous is it? The USCTA (U.S. Combined Training Association) lists
>three
>deaths in almost 50 years of organized competition in the U.S.
I am surprised to read this, because I know of more than 3 riders who have died
due to injuries sustained during competition cross-country in the last year!
I know that this Radnor incident took place this weekend, a North Carolina girl
just died last week due to injuries sustained in a fall October 3rd (?). Her
name was Roberta (I forget her last name). Not to mention those listed in the
Chronicle of the Horse in the last year.
>So it's more dangerous than straight dressage, but not as dangerous as, say,
>any of the racing sports, hang gliding, sky diving, bull riding... probably
>not
>as dangerous as field hunting (hound, horses, red coats type).
I read a few years ago that the Journal of the American Medical Association
listed horse back riding as the sport with the highest fatal injury statistics.
I might be remembering this wrong--maybe it was head related injuries, but
nontheless-the A.M.A stated that more serious (fatal?) injuries were seen as a
result from equestrian activities than motor racing, etc.
Maybe someone else knows the statistics better than I?
..jennifer m.
wkambic
is one of the more accurate statements one finds in collections of famous quotes.
Johdug wrote:
> gbe...@aol.comQgoawayQ (GBExcel) wrote:
>
> >How dangerous is it? The USCTA (U.S. Combined Training Association) lists
> >three
> >deaths in almost 50 years of organized competition in the U.S.
>
> I am surprised to read this, because I know of more than 3 riders who have died
> due to injuries sustained during competition cross-country in the last year!
> I know that this Radnor incident took place this weekend, a North Carolina girl
> just died last week due to injuries sustained in a fall October 3rd (?). Her
> name was Roberta (I forget her last name). Not to mention those listed in the
> Chronicle of the Horse in the last year.
One of the older sayings among lawyers is "I'll let you set the rate if you let me
count the hours!" Each of the above statement could be absolutely true, depending
on the criteria for counting and pigeonholing the dead bodies. Perhaps someone has
some specific information on this.
> >So it's more dangerous than straight dressage, but not as dangerous as, say,
> >any of the racing sports, hang gliding, sky diving, bull riding... probably
> >not
> >as dangerous as field hunting (hound, horses, red coats type).
>
> I read a few years ago that the Journal of the American Medical Association
> listed horse back riding as the sport with the highest fatal injury statistics.
> I might be remembering this wrong--maybe it was head related injuries, but
> nontheless-the A.M.A stated that more serious (fatal?) injuries were seen as a
> result from equestrian activities than motor racing, etc.
Again, how did they make the count? Injuries per hour? Injuries per mile?
Injuries per 1000 people participating? Its fairly easy to know how many bodies
equestrian activities generated. How do they know how many hours, miles, or
persons were involved?
Bill Kambic
Figures don't lie, but liars can (and do) figure.
Dhart999
>
> there are many people who do eventing.. or what is called Three Day >eventing
officially. It was originally developed as a military endeavor.. the
>first day was for dressage, where the horse had to exhibit obedience and
>submission, day two was cross country ( includes roads and tracks and
>steeplchase at the higher levels) which showed courage, endurance and >speed,
finally on day three, the horses did what is known as stadium >jumping.. for
>snip
While this is a good attempt to describe 3-Day Eventing, there are some
erroneous or, at least, misleading statements. I recommend very strongly that
Donna contact the United States Combined Training Association in Leesburg,
Virginia. They are the official organization for eventing in the USA. Nicole
was correct in providing their website address:
Dan Hart
Dhart999
> gbe...@aol.comQgoawayQ (GBExcel) wrote:
>
>>How dangerous is it? The USCTA (U.S. Combined Training Association)
>>lists three deaths in almost 50 years of organized competition in the U.S.
>>
>I am surprised to read this, because I know of more than 3 riders who have
>died due to injuries sustained during competition cross-country in the last
>year! I know that this Radnor incident took place this weekend,
>a North Carolina girl just died last week due to injuries sustained in a fall
>October 3rd (?). Her name was Roberta (I forget her last name). Not to
>mention those listed in the Chronicle of the Horse in the last year.
<snip>
I think that the USCTA statement was probably published a couple of years ago.
Unfortunately, there have been several deaths over the last two seasons. Prior
to that this safety record was probably accurate.
>I read a few years ago that the Journal of the American Medical Association
>listed horse back riding as the sport with the highest fatal injury
>statistics.
> I might be remembering this wrong--maybe it was head related injuries, but
>nontheless-the A.M.A stated that more serious (fatal?) injuries were seen as
>a result from equestrian activities than motor racing, etc.
I believe that the statistics you are remembering stated that head injuries
were the number one cause of fatalities in personal injury accidents. The top
type of accident involving head injuries was motor cycle accidents, followed by
automobile accidents. Equestrian activities were way down at the bottom of the
list after bicycling, skateboarding, skiing, and others. This information was
reported at the time of Christopher Reeves' accident. I don't know if the
past season's fatalities in eventing will change these statistics or not.
Dan Hart
Dhart999
>
>Eventing does take a toll on horses; it's not hugely uncommon for horses to
>be permanently lamed or killed eventing. But it's not an everyday
>occurrence, either, and most of the people involved will tell you flat out
that
>they would rather withdraw than hurt their horse, if only because
> of the incredible investment in time and training and attachment you
> have to make to be successful with a given horse.
>
>
I hope you can back this up with some facts and data. Certainly, over the
years, some horses have died while eventing, but it is quite a rare occurence.
Some horses may become injured, but I doubt that it is more common than in
other equestrian sports where galloping and/or jumping is involved.
Dan Hart
Skipndee
English, or the eventing being discussed here..however I MUST add my .02.
When anyone undertakes a sport involving anything but themselves...and in this
case a 1200 lb. creature...and the basic spirit of this animal is to be part of
nature and not domesticated...we have to remember to respect the potential
dangers. We think it over..mount up and go forward. I'm sure this rider knew
the risks and went for it anyway. You have to do what fulfills your heart and
spirit and follow that path. It is terribly tragic and a loss to the sport and
certainly his family and friends...I am not diminishing that in any way..
It's no different than when my husband and I get on our motorcycle and start a
weekend tour or an evening ride. We know the stats relating to motorcycles and
automobiles..but we do it anyway, and pray all will come home safely.
Horseback riding is not a safe and easy sport..although many would like to
think the glamorous opposite is true, that there is nothing more than hopping
aboard and taking off down sunny trails There is a danger, a pleasure, a
fulfillment...so many aspects of the sport. There is also a relationship you
build with your animal. An understanding of the personalities of rider and
horse, and a respect for each.
I'm sure if this gentleman had taken a tumble because the horse had a
misunderstanding of the jump, reacted to an external distraction,
whatever...and he were ok..he'd not think another thing of it (except
disappointment) that it is the nature of the animal and the sport.
Unpredictability. Maybe that is what we seek to overcome and conquer as we ride
these magnificent creatures..to tame (or become one with?) that which is wild
at some recess of their personalities and is always there "under the surface"
but not too far.
I live in PA not too far from Radnor, and this situation has been in the papers
all week. From what I read, the horse was not being mean, the gentleman was not
being careless...it was just a tragic accident and this animal may never have
this situation again with another rider up. It just happened... Think of
Christopher Reeves...same thing. Accomplished rider, great horse..just a tragic
situation that happened. The unpredictability thing again.
Guess this turned into a nickel's worth. Sorry it's so long!
Dee in PA
"There's something about the outside of a horse that does wonders for the
inside of a man (or a woman)."
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5456
http://members.aol.com/skipndee/index.htm
Jessica Jahiel
:
: I live in PA not too far from Radnor, and this situation has been in the papers
: all week. From what I read, the horse was not being mean, the gentleman was not
: being careless...it was just a tragic accident and this animal may never have
: this situation again with another rider up. It just happened... Think of
: Christopher Reeves...same thing. Accomplished rider, great horse..just a tragic
: situation that happened. The unpredictability thing again.
Your point is well taken, but I wouldn't compare the two situations -- in
the case of Chris Reeve, we had a green rider on a young, green, small
horse, and a bad trainer. Trusting newbies, especially wealthy or
celebrity newbies, are frequently put at risk for dubious reasons; I
would have hoped that CR's horrible accident would have made that point.
Jessica
--
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GBExcel
years, some horses have died while eventing, but it is quite a rare
occurence.>>
Depends on how you define rare, I guess. In our local area, among people I
personally know:
Item: Nirvana II, permanently lamed 1996 Atlanta Olympics, now a broodmare.
Item: Fair Hill 1995 or 1994, horse dropped dead in the 10 minute hold for
cross country.
Item: 1998. Preliminary horse in barn I was boarding in permanently lame (LF)
and now a companion horse due to a combination of improper conditioning for the
level combined with a nasty bad landing over a jump.
That's off the top of my head in a couple of minutes. Horses occasionally take
falls and break their necks (for those who are members of USCTA, there is a
story about that in the current issue of the magazine, although the focus of
the story is the rehab of the rider). I've watched many a horse go off the
course in an ambulance, and while the vast majority, of course, return to full
health and soundness, some do not.
As I said, not an everyday occurrence, but not hugely uncommon, either.
Insurance rates for eventing horses reflect this, the rate is much higher than
for pleasure or dressage horses, at least at the company that writes our
coverage.
As far as I know, no one keeps a set of figures of injury rates for horses in
the sport. All one has to go on is one's personal experience, watching horses
come and go at the events and in the barns. But although my involvement is
minimal (I go, as a spectator, to one or two events a year, and as a
participant/groom to one or two schooling events), I personally know of a
number of horses who are much the worse for wear from injuries suffered
eventing. I expect that many of the injuries are mismanagement, bad judgement,
and bad training related. But there is also just plain bad luck, like that
which bit Keith.
His horse, BTW, was fine, got up and had no injuries.
Karen R.
>Your point is well taken, but I wouldn't compare the two situations -- in
>the case of Chris Reeve, we had a green rider on a young, green, small
>horse, and a bad trainer. Trusting newbies, especially wealthy or
>celebrity newbies, are frequently put at risk for dubious reasons; I
>would have hoped that CR's horrible accident would have made that point.
I have to second Jessica on this one. Since Mr. Reeve's accident, I have
heard a lot of comments about riding, eventing, and my involvement in the
sport. I tried not to get deep into conversation about it, though, because
it is a complex and undoubtedly delicate subject.
I have always been a fan of Christopher Reeve. My mom even got to meet
him and get his autograph many years ago. I was horrified to hear about his
accident, not just because of what happened to him, but also because of the
bad publicity it would bring to the sport.
However, any knowledgeable horse person who has seen the videotapes of
him riding can see for themselves that he was not a good rider. Being a very
tall man, he was already top-heavy, and as happens with some male event
riders, his stiff, forward riding style made him that much more likely to go
over his horse's head in the event of a refusal, which is exactly what
happened.
I still think that what happened is terrible, and my heart goes out to
him and his family, but the accident was no one's fault but his own and his
trainer's. The accident which occurred this past weekend was a "freak"
accident. An experienced rider on an experienced horse had an unlucky spill
at a fence they had jumped many times before. Just because the two incidents
happened in the same discipline doesn't mean that they are comparable.
Sorry this got lengthy.
--
* Karen D. Rust
* kdr...@labyrinth.net
* Ph.D. Candidate
* West Virginia University School of Medicine
* Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Jane H. Kilberg
gbe...@aol.comQgoawayQ (GBExcel) wrote:
(snipped parts)
>As far as I know, no one keeps a set of figures of injury rates for horses in
>the sport.
North American Horseman Assn has figures.
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Robby Johnson
>
> <<I hope you can back this up with some facts and data. Certainly, over the
> years, some horses have died while eventing, but it is quite a rare
> occurence.>>
>
> Depends on how you define rare, I guess. In our local area, among people I
> personally know:
>
> Item: Nirvana II, permanently lamed 1996 Atlanta Olympics, now a broodmare.
> Item: Fair Hill 1995 or 1994, horse dropped dead in the 10 minute hold for
> cross country.
> Item: 1998. Preliminary horse in barn I was boarding in permanently lame (LF)
> and now a companion horse due to a combination of improper conditioning for the
> level combined with a nasty bad landing over a jump.
[...]
Plus the Canadian horse whose heart exploded at Rolex (CCI****)this
year. Or watch Badminton '97 and see the horse fall into a Trakehner
(don't know if he was hurt but the potential was certainly there).
I don't think statistics and scientific data are really required. I
mean, go to any 3-Day and see how many horses pass the final vet
inspection before stadium jumping. Better yet, look at the number of
riders who actually choose not to even present on stadium day. It's a
tough sport but it isn't unfair; it just requires careful and
calculating approaches. And most advanced level riders would rather
wait for another day before they'd present a horse who is obviously
sore, off, stiff, whatever.
Actually, I'll do that for all of the event people here ... I just made
my reservation for Rolex in Lexington in April. I'll keep a notebook and
count how many horses get spun or who voluntarily withdraw between
endurance and stadium. BTW, I'll be at the Marriott (right now they
have a package for 3 nights at $537 - charge card at time of booking,
must cancel 15 days out for refund). I hope to take advantage of a good
rec.eq bogbash so please feel free to email me if you're going! The
dates of competition are April 22-25, 1999. Kentucky Horse Park, of
course.
Sheila darling ... wanna come down and play? I'll hopefully have my
leather portable cocktail kit by then and if it's chilly we can sip
Kentucky bourbon at the Head of the Lake! (Wearing nice gray and loden
wool sweaters with our Blundstones and denims.) What say?
--
Robby Johnson
* Please note - unsolicited mail messages are blocked on this account.
To respond to this message, please remove the asterisks from my e-mail
address (as it appears in the "to:" field of your mail program). I
apologize for the inconvenience.
Skipndee
culpa and all that jazz......Just an apparently weak attempt at making the
point that anything can happen at anytime to anyone, given the right (or wrong)
set of circumstances coming together.
Life's a risk. You get up and get behind the wheel in the morning to go to work
and hope that you aren't one of the over 50,000 that get killed in car
accidents yearly...but we still hop behind the wheel. Same with airplane
trips, et al. If one never did anything daring, challenging or somewhat
dangerous, what a boring life to lead!
People get killed on (or falling off) horses...but we still get in the saddle
every chance we get... 'cuz we LOVE it..and THEM.
Elaine Lindelef
>
> <<I hope you can back this up with some facts and data. Certainly, over the
> years, some horses have died while eventing, but it is quite a rare
> occurence.>>
>
> Depends on how you define rare, I guess. In our local area, among people I
> personally know:
>
> Item: Nirvana II, permanently lamed 1996 Atlanta Olympics, now a broodmare.
> Item: Fair Hill 1995 or 1994, horse dropped dead in the 10 minute hold for
> cross country.
> Item: 1998. Preliminary horse in barn I was boarding in permanently lame (LF)
> and now a companion horse due to a combination of improper conditioning for the
> level combined with a nasty bad landing over a jump.
I think 'permanently lame' and 'dead' are substantially different, though.
If you want to count permanently lame, with no particular limit on
circumstances, you have to consider lots of horses that have campaigned long
and hard in a variety of disciplines - arthritis being a prime, though
nonspectacular culprit that will pretty much get any sport horse eventually.
I am an eventer, and safety for me and my horse is my #1 concern. The last
year or two of crashes worries me, though I cannot see any particular reason
for them to be more common. Course designers have become very safety-concious,
and particularly at the higher levels have moved towards asking more
'psychological' questions, like narrow "arrowhead" type jumps, that encourage
less-dangerous runout errors. Great event horses are lasting longer and longer
- I think it was Spinning Rhombus that went around Badminton at 18?
From what I've seen, accidents tend to be caused more by speed and terrain
rather than the solid obstacles. Horses jump the solid jumps well, and
typically they're built now so that the horse can bank or scramble over the
top if he gets in trouble.
Elaine & Farli
Dhart999
>
>Depends on how you define rare, I guess. In our local area, among people I
>personally know:
>
>Item: Nirvana II, permanently lamed 1996 Atlanta Olympics, now a broodmare.
>Item: Fair Hill 1995 or 1994, horse dropped dead in the 10 minute hold for
>cross country.
>Item: 1998. Preliminary horse in barn I was boarding in permanently lame
>(LF)
>and now a companion horse due to a combination of improper conditioning for
>the
>level combined with a nasty bad landing over a jump.
>
>take
>falls and break their necks (for those who are members of USCTA, there is a
>story about that in the current issue of the magazine, although the focus of
>the story is the rehab of the rider). I've watched many a horse go off the
>course in an ambulance, and while the vast majority, of course, return to
>full
>health and soundness, some do not.
>
>As I said, not an everyday occurrence, but not hugely uncommon, either.
>Insurance rates for eventing horses reflect this, the rate is much higher
>than
>for pleasure or dressage horses, at least at the company that writes our
>coverage.
>
>come and go at the events and in the barns. But although my involvement is
>minimal (I go, as a spectator, to one or two events a year, and as a
>participant/groom to one or two schooling events), I personally know of a
>number of horses who are much the worse for wear from injuries suffered
>eventing. I expect that many of the injuries are mismanagement, bad
>judgement,
>and bad training related. But there is also just plain bad luck, like that
>which bit Keith.
Nirvana II suffered mouth injuries and was retired. I was at the Fair Hill
endurance for both of the years you mention, never heard about the horse dying.
Any rider who takes an improperly conditioned horse out at the prelim level is
doing the wrong thing for their horse, for themselves, and for the sport.
Actually, statistics are kept by USCTA, AHSA, and FEI. If you bothered to
check them, you would find that it is hugely uncommon for horses to die while
eventing. It does happen, but not very often. I have fence-judged and
competed in 3-day events and horse trials for the last 10 years. I have only
seen two horses go off the course in ambulances. One at the '96 Olympics, only
because the rider had fallen and retired. All horses that were eliminated or
retired were transported back to the vet box. The other was an outrider's
horse that suffered a heart attack at Radnor, I believe in 1995.
Dan Hart
Dhart999
>
>Plus the Canadian horse whose heart exploded at Rolex (CCI****)this
>year. Or watch Badminton '97 and see the horse fall into a Trakehner
>(don't know if he was hurt but the potential was certainly there).
>
>I don't think statistics and scientific data are really required. I
>mean, go to any 3-Day and see how many horses pass the final vet
>inspection before stadium jumping. Better yet, look at the number of
>riders who actually choose not to even present on stadium day. It's a
>tough sport but it isn't unfair; it just requires careful and
>calculating approaches. And most advanced level riders would rather
>wait for another day before they'd present a horse who is obviously
I'm not sure which side of this debate you are defending, and I don't think I'm
disagreeing with you. I think the real issue isn't how many horses don't pass
the vet check, but how many horses are able to compete time after time because
the rider and/or ground jury excercized some common sense.
I wasn't asking for scientific data either, just reliable information.
Certainly, some horses have died over the years. I just think that it was
irresponsible for Pat to claim that it "...isn't hugely uncommon...". The
implication is that it is fairly common, and that is just plain wrong. This
kind of inaccurate information is what fuels the fires for animal rights
activists' protests.
Dan Hart
Johdug
>"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." I don't know who said this,
>but it
>is one of the more accurate statements one finds in collections of famous
>quotes.
I know, I know....but I remember reading the quote of the Medical Journal's
article in the Chronicle of the Horse several years ago.
So, I am saying that the Chronicle said that the AMA Journal said that a
study showed...................................................!!!!
jennifer m.
Robby Johnson
[...]
> I'm not sure which side of this debate you are defending, and I don't think I'm
> disagreeing with you. I think the real issue isn't how many horses don't pass
> the vet check, but how many horses are able to compete time after time because
> the rider and/or ground jury excercized some common sense.
Hi Dan! Repeat performers are Good Things, no?! Your last statement
sums up my feelings entirely. But hearts do explode for no apparent
reason and legs do get caught in fences without much warning. I was
very impressed that Karen O'Connor felt Prince Panache lose power during
Phase B of endurance at the WEG in Rome recently. I was pleased that
she pulled out since he was, in fact, in atrial fibrulation. But he
could've just as easily given no sign whatsoever and fell dead and she
wouldn't have been able to do anything about it ... I am sure he was as
prepared to compete as he was going to be!
What you and I both know, and what should be stressed here, is that the
percentage of horses who die or are injured in eventing competition
cannot be directly pointed at Eventing since there are entirely too many
variables involved. A suspensory ligament pull (let's say that's enough
to end a preliminary-level eventing career)could be just as
surreptitiously acquired were the horse a barrel horse, a racehorse or a
garden variety trail horse. A horse who is moving is always at risk of
hurting himself, as are humans.
I guess I am more of the thought that it isn't "hugely uncommon" for any
horse to be lamed or to die as a result of being ridden. "Hugely
uncommon" is the height of subjectivity though. I would personally
define that as perhaps a 1/100 (99%) chance that it won't happen.
> I wasn't asking for scientific data either, just reliable information.
> Certainly, some horses have died over the years. I just think that it was
> irresponsible for Pat to claim that it "...isn't hugely uncommon...". The
> implication is that it is fairly common, and that is just plain wrong. This
> kind of inaccurate information is what fuels the fires for animal rights
> activists' protests.
I didn't read her post the way you did, obviously. And, as was
demonstrated here, there wasn't a reliable study or report available
that proves eventing isn't a dangerous sport. Animal rights activists
are the least of my concern. Actually, worrying about what I might say
that might offend or ignite a certain group of uninformed people is the
very last item on my list of things to worry about.
Dhart999
>
>I didn't read her post the way you did, obviously. And, as was
>demonstrated here, there wasn't a reliable study or report available
>that proves eventing isn't a dangerous sport. Animal rights activists
>are the least of my concern. Actually, worrying about what I might say
>that might offend or ignite a certain group of uninformed people is the
>very last item on my list of things to worry about.
>
>
But past history indicates that eventers should be concerned about animal
rights activists. A few years back (after NBC's biased presentation of the
3-day in the Barcelona Olympics), the HSUS took on the American eventing world,
claiming that it was a sport in which horses quite frequently died and were
injured. HSUS made it quite difficult for the USCTA.
I was a fence judge at the Atlanta Olympics. Some people there were concerned
that PETA was going to try some grand effort like running onto the course to
try to stop the competition. Fortunately, this didn't happen, because this
type of grandstanding (that has actually occurred in Europe) could possibly
result in injury to horse, rider, or spectators.
I guess what really ticks me off is that I know a lot of eventers at all
levels, and, by and large, their primary concern is the safety of their horse.
Sure there are a few boneheads who will recklessly gallop an unfit horse XC.
Sometimes nothing happens, but sometimes it does. The problem isn't the sport,
it is the reckless competitor. Maybe my interpretation of "isn't hugely
uncommon" isn't what most people would think. If so, I guess I have to retract
some of what I have said. However, I believe that, at best, the statement is
imprecise, and possibly ambiguous. I have a high regard for eventing, and I
hate to see statements that can give a misleading impression of the sport in a
public forum. So, I get on my "soap box", and hope to balance the picture.
Dan Hart
look@this
> ... I just made
>my reservation for Rolex in Lexington in April. I'll keep a notebook and
>count how many horses get spun or who voluntarily withdraw between
>endurance and stadium. BTW, I'll be at the Marriott (right now they
>have a package for 3 nights at $537 - charge card at time of booking,
>must cancel 15 days out for refund). I hope to take advantage of a good
>rec.eq bogbash so please feel free to email me if you're going! The
>dates of competition are April 22-25, 1999. Kentucky Horse Park, of
>course.
>Sheila darling ... wanna come down and play? I'll hopefully have my
>leather portable cocktail kit by then and if it's chilly we can sip
>Kentucky bourbon at the Head of the Lake! (Wearing nice gray and loden
>wool sweaters with our Blundstones and denims.) What say?
Robby, I look forward to meeting you in person under
any possible circumstances, and the Rolex is one of
the most tempting you could have chosen! I already
wear my Blunnies almost everywhere, too ...
I've whiled away many happy hours at that particular
venue, and now you have me seriously contemplating
another visit to one of my alltime favorite places.
When I go to the Rolex, or any other Lexington
Horsepark offering, I've found that there's a
wonderful place called Shaker Village about
25 miles south, where one can stay in some
beautifully antique-furnished sets of rooms
originally occupied by the religious sect.
Nice place. Marriotts are great, too,
and more convenient. I particularly
like the Residence Inn concept, and
stay in one east of Columbus, Ohio,
when I attend Quarterhorse Congress.
Thanks for the invite, Robby, and as ever you
have an open door awaiting you at Ramener Ridge.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
Terry von Gease
> gbe...@aol.comQgoawayQ (GBExcel) wrote:
>>How dangerous is it? The USCTA (U.S. Combined Training Association) lists
>>three
>>deaths in almost 50 years of organized competition in the U.S.
>I am surprised to read this, because I know of more than 3 riders who have died
> due to injuries sustained during competition cross-country in the last year!
>I know that this Radnor incident took place this weekend, a North Carolina girl
>just died last week due to injuries sustained in a fall October 3rd (?). Her
>name was Roberta (I forget her last name). Not to mention those listed in the
>Chronicle of the Horse in the last year.
>>So it's more dangerous than straight dressage, but not as dangerous as, say,
>>any of the racing sports, hang gliding, sky diving, bull riding... probably
>>not
>>as dangerous as field hunting (hound, horses, red coats type).
>I read a few years ago that the Journal of the American Medical Association
>listed horse back riding as the sport with the highest fatal injury statistics.
> I might be remembering this wrong--maybe it was head related injuries, but
>nontheless-the A.M.A stated that more serious (fatal?) injuries were seen as a
>result from equestrian activities than motor racing, etc.
>Maybe someone else knows the statistics better than I?
Perhaps from someone who understands statistics better than you. All
you have said is that horsey dead people have a larger numerator than
motor racing dead people.
This might impress the rustics hanging around the village square
and it's sure to get an oooh and an aaah on Oprah but the numbers mean
nothing without a common denominator. As in per unit of exposure, per
unit of distance covered, etc.
There's no doubt more horse related fatalities that those racked up by
folk leaping from airplanes without parachutes or attempting to shave
with chainsaws. It's not the number, it's the ratio of dead folk per
common unit of exposure that stands any chance at all of having any sort
of meaning. Even then the numbers are not guaranteed to actually say
anything cogent. Weasling with statistics is mostly about picking
the denominator that yields whatever numbers it takes to support
your position while giving the illusion of reasonability. This can
be elevated to a perverse art-form.
No matter what activity in which you might be engaged the death rate is the
same. One person, one death.
--
Terry A proper signature should sum up one's entire
philosophy and, at the same time, cause anyone who
reads it to question everything in which they
believe.
LordRebeau
I can honestly say that I have to correct you. A friend of mine was severaly
injured at the advanced level at Rolex and his horse suffered injuries as well.
They were not carreer ending injuries but severe none the less. Courtney
Ramsey was the rider..
Robby Johnson
[...]
> But past history indicates that eventers should be concerned about animal
> rights activists. A few years back (after NBC's biased presentation of the
> 3-day in the Barcelona Olympics), the HSUS took on the American eventing world,
> claiming that it was a sport in which horses quite frequently died and were
> injured. HSUS made it quite difficult for the USCTA.
Oh, so very very true. And I know a big secret behind the '92 Barcelona
fiasco. For a big, 17hh blood bay Irish TB gelding, going Prelim
already, I'll tell it ...
> I was a fence judge at the Atlanta Olympics. Some people there were concerned
> that PETA was going to try some grand effort like running onto the course to
> try to stop the competition. Fortunately, this didn't happen, because this
> type of grandstanding (that has actually occurred in Europe) could possibly
> result in injury to horse, rider, or spectators.
Wow! I am jealous. How cool (although I'm sure you fried in the heat!)
> I guess what really ticks me off is that I know a lot of eventers at all
> levels, and, by and large, their primary concern is the safety of their horse.
> Sure there are a few boneheads who will recklessly gallop an unfit horse XC.
> Sometimes nothing happens, but sometimes it does. The problem isn't the sport,
> it is the reckless competitor. Maybe my interpretation of "isn't hugely
> uncommon" isn't what most people would think. If so, I guess I have to retract
> some of what I have said. However, I believe that, at best, the statement is
> imprecise, and possibly ambiguous. I have a high regard for eventing, and I
> hate to see statements that can give a misleading impression of the sport in a
> public forum. So, I get on my "soap box", and hope to balance the picture.
Your point is very well taken and I agree with you whole-heartedly that
every event rider - whether it's me down here at Novice or Bruce
Davidson at Badminton - should take each opportunity to paint an
accurate and realistic picture of what the sport is all about.
Robby
Robby Johnson
Wow! That sounds really great. When I was there this summer we holed
up at the EconoLodge in Georgetown. A cultural experience, to say the
least. I too am fond of the Residence Inn and Embassy Suites concepts
(ES does free cocktails from 5-7 p.m. so, of course, I love staying
there!).
Your option sounds so much more "complete" in terms of self-pampering
and proper horse-lover Feng Shui.
> Thanks for the invite, Robby, and as ever you
> have an open door awaiting you at Ramener Ridge.
Well, I intend to take you up on that when I get my own rig.
Particularly since the Princess is going fabulously the past week - not
anywhere near a Ramener but at least comfortably carrying herself at the
trot for 10 strides and starting to understand the concept of
shoulder-in on the left track (she tends to carry herself naturally with
her left shoulder popped out so that, tracking left we're bent to the
outside and tracking right we're overbent to the inside ... at least
that's the way it was before I started riding her correctly). What do
you think about equine chiropractors? Might I consider it?
Robby and Willow (I'll bring video and we can watch it during the
downtime)
Mary Papadopoulos
> Oh, so very very true. And I know a big secret behind the '92 Barcelona
> fiasco. For a big, 17hh blood bay Irish TB gelding, going Prelim
> already, I'll tell it ...
Robby, do tell. While I cannot provide the requested donation,
I can keep my fingers crossed for you to get him through the COE.
That's a good deal, right ;~) ?
Mary Papadopoulos
mary at vt dot edu
Terry von Gease
>I'm a Western / pleasure rider, so am not "qualified" to make much comment on
>English, or the eventing being discussed here..however I MUST add my .02.
>When anyone undertakes a sport involving anything but themselves...and in this
>case a 1200 lb. creature...and the basic spirit of this animal is to be part of
>nature and not domesticated...
You allude to some creature come in from the wild that is somehow
temporarily supressing this background which may spring forth at any
moment and overwhelm the both of you..
Nonsense. Horses and cattle are species manufactured by the human race
to suit whatever needs that needed to be suited. Even more so for
cattle. While there exists at great genetic distance from Dobbin wild
horses, a few anyway, there are no wild cattle. All cattle and
virutally all horses in which you're likely to come into contact are
manufactured commodities.
Robby Johnson
No can do. Someone who fulfills the prerequisite will get an earfull.
<eg>
Dokkers
>> > Oh, so very very true. And I know a big secret behind the '92 Barcelona
>> > fiasco. For a big, 17hh blood bay Irish TB gelding, going Prelim
>> > already, I'll tell it ...
>>
>> Robby, do tell. While I cannot provide the requested donation,
>> I can keep my fingers crossed for you to get him through the COE.
>> That's a good deal, right ;~) ?
And Robby wrote:>
>No can do. Someone who fulfills the prerequisite will get an earfull.
>
Weeeelllll... I have a big,17h blood bay TB gelding who, uh, looks good in
green. Close enough?
Kelly (keeping fingers crossed)
& Doc (running away very, very quickly)
dok...@aol.com
Robby Johnson
[...]
> Weeeelllll... I have a big,17h blood bay TB gelding who, uh, looks good in
> green. Close enough?
>
> Kelly (keeping fingers crossed)
> & Doc (running away very, very quickly)
> dok...@aol.com
Not nearly enough ... is his name Mc_________??? <g>
Dokkers
>> Weeeelllll... I have a big,17h blood bay TB gelding who, uh, looks good in
>> green. Close enough?
Robby wrote:
>Not nearly enough ... is his name Mc_________??? <g>
>
That could be arranged.
Kelly (thinking Dr. McNuggett would make a nice new show name)
+ Doc ("I conveniently can't HEAR you")
dok...@aol.com
Jennifer C. Sheesley
clinics in PA last weekend and she described that incicent...she's pretty
glad she pulled up too! She also mentioned Radnor briefly and reiterated
that it really was a freak thing...the horse caught the jump just above the
knees and cartwheeled right ontop of the rider.