Q about bits - D ring vs full cheek
JC Dill
is using the *perfect* bit, a 6" french-mouth full-cheek egg-butt
snaffle. I can not find a bit in the US with these features. The
closest I've found is a D-ring bit. You can see the problem here -
every possible combination of french-mouth full-cheek egg-butt snaffle
features EXCEPT all 3 together in one bit:
http://www.drafttack.com/store/page24.html
So, what's the difference (besides looks) between a D-ring bit and a
full-cheek snaffle? Does the shape of the cheek-piece of the bit affect
how the bits sit in the mouth? I know you can use keepers with a
full-cheek bit to keep the bit in a certain position in the mouth, but I
wasn't planning on using keepers.
Thanks!
jc
John Hasler
> ...full-cheek egg-butt snaffle...
A full-cheek has cheeks while an eggbutt, by definition, has none.
> ...every possible combination of french-mouth full-cheek egg-butt
> snaffle features EXCEPT all 3 together in one bit
I see no full-cheek eggbutt there. Do you mean the "full cheek snaffle
bit" with "eggbutt mouths"? That's just a full cheek with supposedly
non-pinching hinges.
> So, what's the difference (besides looks) between a D-ring bit and a
> full-cheek snaffle?
The full-cheek has prongs that stick out and can get tangled in things.
> I know you can use keepers with a full-cheek bit to keep the bit in a
> certain position in the mouth, but I wasn't planning on using keepers.
Then you have no need for full cheeks. Just get a french-link D-ring
or eggbutt bit. Your horse won't care and you won't have to worry about
him hooking a prong on a stirrup leather or something.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
jo...@dancinghorsehill.com Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA
JC Dill
> jc writes:
>> ...full-cheek egg-butt snaffle...
>
> A full-cheek has cheeks while an eggbutt, by definition, has none.
BS.
Compare the two bits here:
http://www.drafttack.com/store/page24.html
Bit # DH-189 is a full-cheek egg-butt snaffle (but not french link)
Bit # SD-123 is a full-cheek french-link snaffle (but not egg-butt)
Clearly the first bit has an egg-butt fitting where the bit meets the
cheek rings, and the second bit does not. I do not want the second bit.
I want the first bit with a french-link mouthpiece, 6" wide, which
does not seem to be available in the US.
> I see no full-cheek eggbutt there. Do you mean the "full cheek snaffle
> bit" with "eggbutt mouths"? That's just a full cheek with supposedly
> non-pinching hinges.
When I describe it as a full-cheek egg-butt bit, everyone understands
what I'm describing. Saying "supposedly non-pinching hinges" might be
technically accurate but would be totally confusing.
>> So, what's the difference (besides looks) between a D-ring bit and a
>> full-cheek snaffle?
>
> The full-cheek has prongs that stick out and can get tangled in things.
This is a totally useless answer, much like the previous part of your
post. I obviously wrote to ask if there's a difference in how it works
when using it, when riding.
>> I know you can use keepers with a full-cheek bit to keep the bit in a
>> certain position in the mouth, but I wasn't planning on using keepers.
>
> Then you have no need for full cheeks.
A full-cheek bit has a very good purpose when working with a green
horse, that you can use a direct rein with a "wide" hand to guide the
horse to turn, and in doing so you can't pull the bit thru the mouth.
In addition, the full cheek on the far side of the mouth helps guide the
horse to yield to the pressure of the cheek piece on the side of the
face and turn, following the rein.
My question is about the difference between this effect with a
full-cheek and with a D-ring, for people who have used both. There has
to be a reason that both bits exist.
I have used full-cheek bits, but never used a D-ring.
> Just get a french-link D-ring
> or eggbutt bit.
What's the difference between a "french-link D-ring" and "french-link
eggbutt" bit? They ARE different, right? So why are you presenting
them as if they are entirely identical in function?
> Your horse won't care and you won't have to worry about
> him hooking a prong on a stirrup leather or something.
I'm not worried. I'm asking about the difference in function between
these similar bits.
jc
Lisa Cook
> I know you can use keepers with a
> full-cheek bit to keep the bit in a certain position in the mouth, but I
> wasn't planning on using keepers.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jc
Full-cheek bits should *always* be used with keepers. If you do not
plan on using keepers with a full-cheek, then do not use a full-
cheek.
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH
JJ
OY! So many bits. Most are a mystery to me. I wish you luck in your
search. Your trainer isn't willing to part with hers I take it? ;-)
When I started to first ride Comet, she was in the traditional D-ring
snaffle (a lot of hunters use that?)...
She was fine in in, but trainer wanted to try a french-link, loose-ring
snaffle. We've been using that every since. She's never had anything else
in her mouth since I've had her.
Again, good luck and if you find one let us know! Sorry I can't be of more
help. JJ
Grey
No fact, just opinion, but without keepers, I think the lateral effect
is similar, provided the Dees are large enough. I think the full-cheek
might rotate a bit more in the mouth than the D, which hangs more
directly from the cheekpiece. Keepers hold the snaffle in place and
probably put more pressure on bars/tongue than without. I wonder if
the size of the ring the rein attaches to impacts how it works? Full-
cheeks usually have smaller rings than Ds. Wikipedia has a page on bit
rings that might be of interest.
Do you have any flexibility in size? Dover Saddlery offers a Herm
Sprenger with all that you want, in a 5 3/4. JP Korsteel makes one up
to a 5 1/2 -- you might call them to see if they make anything
bigger.
Grey
Lisa Cook
For a wide variety of bits, there is also this web site:
They can also custom-make bits for you. I tried a bit at Tamarack
Farm that I (and my horses) LOVED. Unfortunately, it was a unique bit
that Denny had custom made to his specifications, so it was not
something I could run over to Dover Saddlery & pick up. I took
pictures of the bit, sent them to Equus Sport, and they are making the
bit for me. :-)
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH
JC Dill
> No fact, just opinion, but without keepers, I think the lateral effect
> is similar, provided the Dees are large enough. I think the full-cheek
> might rotate a bit more in the mouth than the D, which hangs more
> directly from the cheekpiece. Keepers hold the snaffle in place and
> probably put more pressure on bars/tongue than without. I wonder if
> the size of the ring the rein attaches to impacts how it works? Full-
> cheeks usually have smaller rings than Ds. Wikipedia has a page on bit
> rings that might be of interest.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll go take a look at Wikipedia.
> Do you have any flexibility in size? Dover Saddlery offers a Herm
> Sprenger with all that you want, in a 5 3/4. JP Korsteel makes one up
> to a 5 1/2 -- you might call them to see if they make anything
> bigger.
She really needs a 6, it's wide enough but just barely. (She's big.
Really big. 1/2 Percheron Big. Did I mention that she's big? :-) She
could probably wear a 6.5 if I could find one, but the 6 is OK.
I don't want to spend the $$$ for a Sprenger (especially when it's still
not really big enough). If I'm going to spend that much I can buy the
bit from the UK and pay the postage and customs and it still wouldn't
cost half of what a HS costs.
jc
Dawn Jones-Low
If you are not going to use the keepers, but are interested in the
lateral stability, how about a french link baucher? There's one here:
http://www.drafttack.com/store/page24.html (disregard the info about
poll pressure, baucher bits are NOT leverage bits and do NOT apply
poll pressure though that is a common misconception) Several of my
horses prefer a baucher french link to either an eggbutt or a loose
ring with a french link.
--Dawn JL
JC Dill
> If you are not going to use the keepers, but are interested in the
> lateral stability, how about a french link baucher?
I hate how baucher bits look on a horse - they just look "incomplete"
(as if someone forgot to make the rest of the bit). I also am not fond
of how a D-ring looks, compared with a full-cheek or egg-butt. Unless
there's a good reason (function) I'd like to get a bit that makes for a
pretty portrait. :-)
jc
Lisa Cook
> I hate how baucher bits look on a horse - they just look "incomplete"
> (as if someone forgot to make the rest of the bit). I also am not fond
> of how a D-ring looks, compared with a full-cheek or egg-butt. Unless
> there's a good reason (function) I'd like to get a bit that makes for a
> pretty portrait. :-)
>
> jc
A full-cheek without keepers screams "incomplete" to me. Well, and
that and something else, too. If a baucher provides the functionality
of what you are looking for, I'm rather surprised you do not want to
use it simply because of how it looks. Unless you are planning on
showing hunters, in which case I totally get it.
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH
Bill Kambic
wrote:
Elevation of form over substance? Where does that road end?
Dawn Jones-Low
Well, why not just go with the french link eggbutt then? BTW, I LOVE
my baucher bits because they work well for the horses that found the
loose ring and eggbutt rings to be too mobile for their sensitive
mouths. I also think they look "tidy". Bit rings are so HUGE these
days that they are out of proportion with my horses' noses so the
smaller profile of the baucher bits are more aesthetically pleasing
than the rings of the other bits that I own. Course your Venus is a
lot bigger than my horses. <wink>
--Dawn JL
Lisa Cook
> They can also custom-make bits for you. I tried a bit at Tamarack
> Farm that I (and my horses) LOVED. Unfortunately, it was a unique bit
> that Denny had custom made to his specifications, so it was not
> something I could run over to Dover Saddlery & pick up. I took
> pictures of the bit, sent them to Equus Sport, and they are making the
> bit for me. :-)
>
> Lisa Cook
> Brookline, NH
Ah, speak of the devil! The bit arrived today, and it is beautiful
and made exactly the way I wanted. I have to say it is the most
expensive bit I've ever owned in my life, and so I therefore expect
nothing less than tempi changes and half halts that go through on a
jumping course with a twitch of the tip of my little finger.
Commencing immediately. :-)
For anyone who is curious, here is a picture I took of Denny's, which
I used as reference when having mine made.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3387/dsc0259ma.jpg
I'm not sure why it works as fabulously as it does...it's not all THAT
remarkable. I just know that we put both Beetle & Suzi Q in it and
they both went amazing, and they are 2 very different types of horses
from polar opposite ends of the spectrum.
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH
JC Dill
> Well, why not just go with the french link eggbutt then?
I really like full-cheek bits because of how they work in an emergency,
with a 1-rein stop. An egg-butt can get pulled into the horse's mouth,
and that's even more of a possibility when the horse has a really big
mouth (like Venus). Cowboys will use a chin strap on an egg-butt or
loose-ring snaffle but I don't want that look for Venus, I want a nice
polished English look for her tack. If I can't find the full-cheek I'll
probably get the D-ring (thus the questions in this thread).
> BTW, I LOVE
> my baucher bits because they work well for the horses that found the
> loose ring and eggbutt rings to be too mobile for their sensitive
> mouths. I also think they look "tidy".
Can you post a few links showing your horses with baucher bits?
> Bit rings are so HUGE these
> days that they are out of proportion with my horses' noses so the
> smaller profile of the baucher bits are more aesthetically pleasing
> than the rings of the other bits that I own. Course your Venus is a
> lot bigger than my horses.<wink>
Yep. I run into the opposite problem - ordinary size rings with an
oversize mouthpiece means the bit looks wrong on her head and it just
makes her head look even bigger. That's another part of why I want a
full-cheek, it makes her look more petite and refined, brings out the
Arab half a bit. :-)
jc
Splash
hitch. And......gasp!......I didn't use keepers. I never got around
to ordering any. I see their purpose as "perhaps" stabilizing the bit
in the horses mouth and certainly to maintain a tidy look but, meh, we
did fine without them. AND please note I trail rode including several
overnite trips with them and they never once tangled in anything.
I'm not a fan of D-rings because, as you noted JC, without a chin
strap the bit in insanely mobile in the horses mouth. The reins
attach to the D part of the bit and slide freely up and down it. Lord
knows how that changes it's action in the horses mouth depending on
where the reins end up. On my full cheek the reins are firmly
attached to the bit at the corners of the horses mouth. I'll give you
that without keepers the bit may be a tad more mobile in the horses
mouth but no where near the D rings instability. And yes, I've ridden
with a D-ring (NOT on Sox) and I really, really dislike them. But
again, that is just my opinion.
I went with the full cheek because Sox was very green and the action
of the full cheek would provide "help" in teaching him to steer
properly and promptly. In worked a dream.
Splash - ducking from the flack for not using keepers
Poplar Flats Farm
> For a wide variety of bits, there is also this web site:
>
> http://www.equusport.com
>
> They can also custom-make bits for you.
Another bit maker that I've been very pleased with is Dutton Bits,
located in New Mexico. They have their in-stock bits and do custom
work, too. Call (505) 865-9132. They have a booth at the Quarter Horse
Congress and Equine Affaire.
--Karen Smith
Sue Leopold
Portraits are different :-) When JC photographed Cruiser I
borrowed one of Jeff's pretty hunter bridles (Da Nose's
standard setup is a three-ring "Dutch" bit with rubber reins
and an ergonomic crown. Functional but not necessarily portrait
pretty - the photos in the pretty bridle ended up pretty nice...)
I think I know where JC is coming from - when dinosaurs
roamed the Urth, blooded jumping horses wore full-cheeks
because they had the refinement to carry them off. D-bits
belonged to the racetracks and really, the strapwork was
so fine then that a D just totally overwhelmed it. Of course,
I am also old enough to remember the Really Huge Loose
Rings - I'm not sure of what that statement meant!
I'm pretty used to the big hunter D's these days and some of
the warmbloods need them *and* the wide nosebands and
could never have successfully pulled off Velvet's 3/8 inch
bridle with the half-inch raised cavesson. But it is what it
is.
Despite their looks, for riding I echo Dawn - Bauchers are
wonderful. In a French-link for a fussy mare - *awesome*
I did ride Chrissy in one for lessons - the first time Jeff saw
it he said "Sue, what kind of bit is that?!" But when I said,
it's just a snaffle and she likes it, he accepted it - esp. when
I could do the tight three in the indoor easily. I *love* them -
<shallow on> but not for portraits, ya know? </off> :-D
Functionally, a D-ring is pretty close to a full-cheek. If I was
not looking at competing in the hunters, I would look for a
french-link eggbutt - I think they are attractive and I do like
them a lot. It is hard to find a good full-cheek French snaffle
these days - I have an old one, 5.25 inches and the best
baby bit *ever.* (moderate canons, a nice smooth link) but
you'll pry that bit out of my cold, dead hands.
Another great baby bit is the Fulmer snaffle - combines the
stability of the full cheek with some of a loose rings lateral
effect. But they are also kind of hard to find these days.
Judie
I just switched Oakley to a loose ring French link snaffle on
Saturday. She has always gone in a rubber pelham AFIK. I had a 5 1/2"
that I had used on Pixie. Luckily I tried it right before my lesson
(because that is when I finally rememberd to get it out of the
trailer) and so the trainer was very helpful as Oakley was quite fussy
at first. I learned a new technique of using the "triangle" between my
shoulder blades and my middle back to hold the reins. LOL. I got to
feel what this feels like first hand when the trainer took the reins
on each side of Oakley's face holding the tension and told me to hold
the tension while he put different amounts of pressure until he felt
that my arms had become more elastic because I was using the middle
back. Then he totally dropped the connection and asked me how that
felt. It felt like I lost my way! And it made me a little anxious. He
said right. So then when I was going around in a circle using my
middle back, when Oakley would quit fussing and relax down, I was
giving her a "release" by habbit and then she would pop back up.
Suddenly a light bulb went up and I kept the tension even when her
head went down and she relaxed albiet I tried to ease the pressure
without loosing the full contact. It worked! We stayed in exactly the
same connection with her head in the same place and were able to go
everywhere! It was really cool. And she blew softly after.
Judie
Dawn Jones-Low
Interesting, the snaffle joint looks like it breaks toward the front
of the mouth rather than up into the palate.
--Dawn JL
Lisa Cook
Bingo! And my horses love it.
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH