Evil-minded horse
Claudia Wheatley
the ground he is hell on wheels and I am out of ideas on how to cope
with him. In a nutshell:
1. There are 2 areas of his body that I am not allowed to touch: behind
the elbow and the flanks; or he snakes his head around, eyes rolling and
teeth bared.
2. He loves having his face rubbed with the pimple-mitt--until he
abruptly decides he's had enough, a point he drives home by suddenly
trying to bite me. A week ago he succeeded, and even through four layers
of sleeves, he raised a nasty bruise on my arm.
3. He hates sudden movements and actually charged me recently when,
after dismounting, I stepped away awkwardly and waved my arms in the air
to get my balance.
I deal with each infraction the moment it occurs. In the case of 1 and
3, barking "NO!" at him is enough. In the case of 2, when he bit me, I
grabbed his lead and backed him furiously, again barking "NO NO NO!"
That seemed to make a big impression: he was an angel for the rest of
the evening. But the ugly faces and bared teeth are making a comeback,
and I am wondering what it's going to take to get this beast to chill
out. I actually found myself thinking that if he doesn't get past this,
the best thing to do would be to put him down--it doesn't seem right to
sell this problem to someone else.
He has been checked for pain in all his hot spots, I keep his teeth
floated, he is turned out all day with three other horses without
incident, is lunged and ridden three to four times a week, and is never
hot under saddle, so I really don't think he's getting too much grain.
His previous owner doesn't seem like the abusive type, but I have to
wonder if at some point someone whacked him around the head, because
that is the prime danger area.
He is also very territorial about his stall, and I worry that he might
hurt someone while they are cleaning it.
Any ideas? If you are going to say, "Get professional help," how will I
know the right person for the job? There are a lot of self-proclaimed
horse trainers out there, and having watched some of them in action, I
can see quite clearly how they could make matters much, much worse.
C
--
"One of the things I've said before in interviews is: 'Without deviation
(from the norm), "progress" is not possible.'
"In order for one to deviate successfully, one has to have at least a
passing acquaintance with whatever 'norm' one expects to deviate from."
Frank Zappa, "The Real Frank Zappa Book"
Kris Carroll
> 1. There are 2 areas of his body that I am not allowed to touch: behind
> the elbow and the flanks; or he snakes his head around, eyes rolling and
> teeth bared.
he's got a reason for this even if it no longer makes sense - but it
can't be allowed.
> 2. He loves having his face rubbed with the pimple-mitt--until he
> abruptly decides he's had enough, a point he drives home by suddenly
> trying to bite me. A week ago he succeeded, and even through four layers
> of sleeves, he raised a nasty bruise on my arm.
stop rubbing his face and don't let him rub on you. this is
dominance behavior and you're teaching him you're the door mat.
> 3. He hates sudden movements and actually charged me recently when,
> after dismounting, I stepped away awkwardly and waved my arms in the air
> to get my balance.
this horse has no respect for you at all. find someone to teach you
how to work with him in a round pen.
> the evening. But the ugly faces and bared teeth are making a comeback,
> and I am wondering what it's going to take to get this beast to chill
You've got Cornell right there, talk to Behavioral Medicine
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/equine.htm
'Diagnosis and treatment of problems such as aggression, stall
problems, phobias to thunder and other noise, destructiveness, and
foal rejection. Techniques include animal learning, behavior
modification, and medication.'
K
--
kcarroll at horse dash country dot com
agent provocateur and regular poster to rec.eq since early 90s
manure detector on; fads, gurus, cults, bullies are fair game
Leann
according to his owner, that tied his head up and had his sides spurred
until they bled. That happened when he was a younger horse and will still
have flashbacks if you make just one wrong movement. His would include
rearing up and trying to kick out at you if you didn't untie and release the
lead rope from the tying area slow enough. He would also freak from time to
time when you would put a bridle on. He actually flipped over in his stall
when some kids were tacking him up and didn't hurt anyone, but scared the
kids half to death. They were also worried about whether they caused it or
caused him major injuries since he scraped his hocks on something.
So he possibly is having some sort of flashback going on with you, but you
still have to get him to get over this crap without having to walk on
eggshells around him. You just don't always know what happened to these
critters if you haven't been the one to care for him since day one. Then
again, we know that isn't realistic either. I just wanted to share with you
my experience seen with a horse that was abused by someone, but it wasn't
the owner that caused it. It might take a retraining period to pull him out
of his goofiness and I'm sure someone here will have lots of ideas to use to
help you out.
CMNewell
<kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote:
>You've got Cornell right there, talk to Behavioral Medicine
>http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/equine.htm
Great idea, Kris!
You can't get much better than Dr. Katherine Houpt.
CMNewell, DVM
"Do you realize that
world peace could be achieved with Basset Hounds?"
--Terry von Gease
Fran Bragg
"Claudia Wheatley" <claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:claudiawheatley-3D...@news06.east.earthlink.net...
> My 11-year-old Arab gelding Jack is safe and pleasant to ride, but on
> the ground he is hell on wheels and I am out of ideas on how to cope
> with him. In a nutshell:
>
> 1. There are 2 areas of his body that I am not allowed to touch: behind
> the elbow and the flanks; or he snakes his head around, eyes rolling and
> teeth bared.
Have you tried moving him around a bit, making him back, step aside, etc.,
before starting grooming? Put his halter on, enter his stall (HIS space)
like you own it, since you do! Ask him politely to move aside or back or
whatever and don't take a halfway response. When you do start grooming,
keep a mud brush in your hand nearest the head. With that hand on his neck
you can feel when he starts to shift around toward you even if you are
facing the back. When that head snakes around, just hold up the brush and
let him run into it. In the past, you were most likely anticipating and YOU
move which is what he wants. Try not to move! (It's hard I know, been
there!) As soon as he tries, and runs into the prickly thing, ask him to
move around at your will again. That's why I like to have a halter on so you
can direct his head as necessary. It may take a couple of times but this
has worked for me and generally I don't have further problems. You want him
to move IMMEDIATELY at your request and the first time may take a large
amount of movement and a loud voice on your part. He needs to be under no
doubt who is in charge! I also don't stop grooming the 'tickly' parts until
they are standing quietly. If you know you aren't hurting him, it's a
matter of who is in charge. I just gently keep at it until they stop
fidgeting. An Arabian should figure this out pretty quickly!
>
> 2. He loves having his face rubbed with the pimple-mitt--until he
> abruptly decides he's had enough, a point he drives home by suddenly
> trying to bite me. A week ago he succeeded, and even through four layers
> of sleeves, he raised a nasty bruise on my arm.
>
> 3. He hates sudden movements and actually charged me recently when,
> after dismounting, I stepped away awkwardly and waved my arms in the air
> to get my balance.
>
> I deal with each infraction the moment it occurs. In the case of 1 and
> 3, barking "NO!" at him is enough.
Actually 3 is more worrisome than the biting to me.
In the case of 2, when he bit me, I
> grabbed his lead and backed him furiously, again barking "NO NO NO!"
> That seemed to make a big impression: he was an angel for the rest of
> the evening.
>But the ugly faces and bared teeth are making a comeback,
Sheila would disagree but I think you did the right thing. Problem is
consistency. Your body language maybe went back to wariness instead of
ownership. He picked up on it and is trying again to be boss.
> and I am wondering what it's going to take to get this beast to chill
> out. I actually found myself thinking that if he doesn't get past this,
> the best thing to do would be to put him down--it doesn't seem right to
> sell this problem to someone else.
At 11, it's going to be more difficult to break the habit but I think it can
certainly be done as long as you are consistent. He doesn't like big
movements? Tough! I would deliberetly make big movements all the time
around him. You may need a helper to keep it under control but control it
you must. Don't put yourself in danger but earn his trust and most
importantly his respect. He needs to know that big movements from you are
not something to panic and charge about. They should be run of the mill
everyday occurences at least for a while.
>
> He has been checked for pain in all his hot spots, I keep his teeth
> floated, he is turned out all day with three other horses without
> incident, is lunged and ridden three to four times a week, and is never
> hot under saddle, so I really don't think he's getting too much grain.
> His previous owner doesn't seem like the abusive type, but I have to
> wonder if at some point someone whacked him around the head, because
> that is the prime danger area.
>
> He is also very territorial about his stall, and I worry that he might
> hurt someone while they are cleaning it.
Do the folks doing the cleaning say anything about him being aggressive? He
may not be aggressive with someone who isn't intimidated. I've often had
horses whose owners couldn't enter the stall but I had no problems after we
had a couple of 'discussions' about who actually owned the space! I've also
had horses who intimidated me and I had to call in someone who had not been
hurt by the particular horse to help me out. There was a young stud at the
track who backed me into a corner and I was trapped there for a while by a
threatening rump and pinned ears until my trainer showed up and took charge.
No shame in getting help! I did learn to work with that horse but I never
quite got over my fear of him and he knew it. The trainer could do anything
with him though. So if you need professional help, do ask!
>
> Any ideas? If you are going to say, "Get professional help," how will I
> know the right person for the job? There are a lot of self-proclaimed
> horse trainers out there, and having watched some of them in action, I
> can see quite clearly how they could make matters much, much worse.
There are many ways of dealing with problem horses. You just have to find
the right one for you and your horse. From what you described, he responds
to a more dominant behavior. You just have to display that more than usual
with him than you perhaps would with another horse. Also he may still bite
other people who are not as dominant and so you will still have to make that
decision if you are keeping him where multiple people have to deal with him.
Good luck and hope things improve for you both. Keep us posted!
>
Fran
wff...@bellsouth.net
One might put a rope halter on him and snatch head arab off , at the time of
the offence behaiver and STOP as soon as he stops the offence behaiver, (
tip: you need a little slack in the rope to get a good snatch, otherwise
your just pulling on him) All this while being the best of friends at all
other times.
Don't toch zones: Just touch where he likes it and work toward the bad
spots, when it gets to be too much move toward where it is good to him,
keep doing this till you are in the middle of the bad spot w/ no reaction. I
would use a flag (CB antina w/ plastic gro. bag) and above rope halter. The
flag will not wont to take a break after it gets kicked, you might.
goodluck, lyndo
"Claudia Wheatley" <claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:claudiawheatley-3D...@news06.east.earthlink.net...
wff...@bellsouth.net
<wff...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:pQRZb.41454$kR3....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
John Hasler
> DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
CMNewell
Full disclosure and all. I won't sue.
Cricket
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:87y8qw6...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
Thank you. Please explain this to my customers...
Claudia Wheatley
John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
> wffarms writes:
> > DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
>
> Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
Jack is actually very good about being handfed. We do carrot stretches
after every workout, and he knows the whole routine by heart: one bite
at the heartgirth, then follow the carrot along the belly and up to the
hip, then down the outside of the front leg to the fetlock, then between
the legs. He has *never* tried to bite any of us during handfeeding.
That's what's so bewildering about his bad behavior: 90% of his behavior
is very, very good; very polite, shows a lot of awareness of who is
boss. But the other 10% makes me want to be rid of him.
Claudia Wheatley
CMNewell <res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:58:27 -0800, Kris Carroll
> <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote:
>
>
> >You've got Cornell right there, talk to Behavioral Medicine
> >http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/equine.htm
>
> Great idea, Kris!
> You can't get much better than Dr. Katherine Houpt.
I have wanted to contact her but frankly I'm a little
intimidated/starstruck. Do you really think she'd have time for us?
Claudia Wheatley
CMNewell <res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote:
> PS. If you really are going to kill him over this, send him to me.
> Full disclosure and all. I won't sue.
> CMNewell, DVM
Oh hell, he's actually my kid's horse and she adores him, so it's not
really an option. I like him, too, the old SOB. I love riding the
bugger; he's lovely. But I like being alive and in one piece even more.
Cricket
> In article <87y8qw6...@toncho.dhh.gt.org>,
> John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>
> > wffarms writes:
> > > DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
> >
> > Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
>
> Jack is actually very good about being handfed. We do carrot stretches
> after every workout, and he knows the whole routine by heart: one bite
> at the heartgirth, then follow the carrot along the belly and up to the
> hip, then down the outside of the front leg to the fetlock, then between
> the legs. He has *never* tried to bite any of us during handfeeding.
>
> That's what's so bewildering about his bad behavior: 90% of his behavior
> is very, very good; very polite, shows a lot of awareness of who is
> boss. But the other 10% makes me want to be rid of him.
I have a customer with a mare that, as a two year old, had several places
she was stone nasty about - and you didn't have to touch, just approach.
She had never been injuried that anyone could find out about (my customer
was the second owner), showed no sign of actual pain, just got very nasty if
you *dared* approach her in a way she hadn't approved of. I assume it was a
dominance behavior, since it didn't bother her for people/horses/objects to
touch her there (mostly her neck and shoulder on the off side) if there was
a percentage in it, such as bulling through the herd/a door/the underbrush
to get at something, or if she was itchy with unshed hair and you were
acting as her personal body servant and currying it off for her.
Every once in a long while she'll start to snake her head around when one of
us puts a hand on her shoulder to move her over, then she thinks better of
it and pouts instead. I suppose she got away with it once and thought it
was a good deal - a "I get to tell the humans what to do" sort of thing.
Other than that, she was mannerly, broke out easily, not a problem with her
hind feet. She's a lady now, for the most part, other than the
above-mentioned ugly faces.
lizzard woman
news:WURZb.12911$ld7....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
| PS: DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
Buzzz. Challenge.
Obligatory anecdote: No horse on the planet has had more treats than my
mare within an 18 years time frame and she NEVER picked up a biting habit.
Brings up the question I asked many moons ago... are mean horses born or
made? I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological source
or pain).
--
sharon
"You don't seem immune to the "touchy feely" aspects of horse
ownership...on your website you can be seen embracing your inner
"Howdy Doody". -- Phil M.
"Feel free to use a pie chart in your explanation." -- Phil M.
Kris Carroll
> I have wanted to contact her but frankly I'm a little
> intimidated/starstruck. Do you really think she'd have time for us?
Of course she will :) for $150
Print and fill out this form
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/abc/horse_history.html
then fax it to the number provided
CMNewell
<claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <hopf301pdrjl0a817...@4ax.com>,
> CMNewell <res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:58:27 -0800, Kris Carroll
>> <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >You've got Cornell right there, talk to Behavioral Medicine
>> >http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/equine.htm
>>
>> Great idea, Kris!
>> You can't get much better than Dr. Katherine Houpt.
>
>I have wanted to contact her but frankly I'm a little
>intimidated/starstruck. Do you really think she'd have time for us?
>
>C
She's really qute a pleasant and approachable person.
At worst, you'll get a bill.
John Hasler
> Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
Cricket writes:
> Thank you. Please explain this to my customers...
$35/hr plus expenses.
wff...@bellsouth.net
> > DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
>
> Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
This is true, politely being the key. I myself as a child have fed out many
tons out of feed out of my own pants pocket, having been trapled by having a
bucket in my hand in a herd, the pocket attacted less attn.
I have seen so many people trained to feed the nippy horse. (I drove for a
fairrer, you get to see it all) They hand me the rope saying "I have got to
go get more feed/ treats/ carrots" While dobin tring to figer out why lyndo
does not seem to be a soure of nutrtion .I was left NOT holding the bag .
Most outside horses I have been around did not seem "to me" to have the
politely thing going.I must say the owners were fine w/ it, come to think of
it they didn't seem to mind thier loose toenails from being stepped on.
I myself gave up on hand feeding ect. When I learned to do w/o it, I have
never paid ladys to "dance" w/ me, and wouldn't want my horses to feel like
"not so nice girls"
I didn't mean to offend you, lyndo
wff...@bellsouth.net
No dout you have it under control , alot of folks don't
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:QIUZb.588447$ts4.257020@pd7tw3no...
John Hasler
> I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological source or
> pain).
There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_ horses
with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
Jennifer Meyer-Mahoney
> made? I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological
source
> or pain).
I have a 5 year old mare who I swear was born with her ears pinned. She
tried to bite me the first time I saw her. She was an hour old and could not
stand up yet but she was ready to bite. If she is handled daily and reminded
about nasty faces she is the easiest horse on the farm to handle or ride. If
you ignore the nasty faces or act like you are intimidated by her she will
progress to nipping and kicking at you. She is always low mare in the
pecking order but bullies the geldings. If she were a dog you would use the
term "fear biter" to describe her. I think her attitude could easily be
misinterpretted as "mean."
Jennifer
Gloria
"Claudia Wheatley" <> wrote in message
> 1. There are 2 areas of his body that I am not allowed to touch: behind
> the elbow and the flanks; or he snakes his head around, eyes rolling and
> teeth bared.
Who's the teacher here? I think he has taught you to where you can touch.
To resolve you need to keep doing it when he says NO and stop when he
relaxes. You can use an artificial hand with a broom to make it safer at
first.
John Hasler
> I myself gave up on hand feeding ect. When I learned to do w/o it
Rewards are a very useful tool.
> I have never paid ladys to "dance" w/ me, and wouldn't want my horses to
> feel like "not so nice girls"
That's silly anthropomorphization.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Sheryl Reasonover
>> | PS: DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
I have to disagree. I have a bunch of lip flopping slobbering horses who get
hand fed & wouldn't think about biting unless they are having some kind of
silly moment. Yes, it happens, but it isn't linked to the hand feeding, just
the particular horse & moment. It is the sneaky kind of bites where they think
about it & see if they can get away with it which could be avoided if you were
paying attention. (Don't let Ra rest his teeth on you because he won't be able
to resist sneaking a pinch). Also, don't let your butt hang out of the feed
room too long while you are getting the feed ready, not only will he poke his
nose up your butt, he did take a little nip once - never happened again though.
The only time I had a head snaking, open mouth threatener was when I got Homer
& he didn't want you to saddle him or put your foot in the saddle (he had been
tried out at a roping barn just before I got him & had some issues & was sore).
I just let him alone for a few months, let him see me intimidate the horse
that intimidated him & he straightened up. He has been nothing but a gentleman
ever since.
Tamara Howard
> PS: DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
oh that's silly...lots of horses/ponies/mules learn with their
stomachs..it must be a choice made for the individual animal...for
me, tidbits are always in conjunction with a waaayy lowered hand...so
he/she drops their head to get it...everyone knows a high headed
horse isn't listening anyway...and it is a "reward" and not a "right"
which is another fine line that a nippy horse crosses...
Tamara in TN
Kris Anderson
> In article <87y8qw6...@toncho.dhh.gt.org>,
> John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>
> > wffarms writes:
> > > DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
> >
> > Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
>
> Jack is actually very good about being handfed. We do carrot stretches
> after every workout, and he knows the whole routine by heart: one bite
> at the heartgirth, then follow the carrot along the belly and up to the
> hip, then down the outside of the front leg to the fetlock, then between
> the legs. He has *never* tried to bite any of us during handfeeding.
Exactly. Nippy behavior that results from hand feeding by the
clueless isn't the same as scared shitless/confused/in pain biting.
> That's what's so bewildering about his bad behavior: 90% of his behavior
> is very, very good; very polite, shows a lot of awareness of who is
> boss. But the other 10% makes me want to be rid of him.
I would imagine he feels the same about you. :-) The fact that he's
such a "good" horse until he starts to get upset, should be a good
clue as to what motivates the unwanted behaviors.
Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
HHamp5246
>the ground he is hell on wheels and I am out of ideas on how to cope
>with him. In a nutshell:
Hi Claudia,
While reading this my first thought was this horse needs you to open up a can
of Whoop ass.... he thinks he's the dominant one in your relationship.
I never hit my horses, but if one of them was to threaten me like that I'd make
him think he was gonna die.....
Every time he does that crap to you he's more convinced that he's in
charge......
Your daughter probably isn't helping by letting him think he's boss too....
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm
My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm
"You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."
JC Dill
<claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <87y8qw6...@toncho.dhh.gt.org>,
> John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>
>> wffarms writes:
>> > DON"T feed him from your hand!! It teach him to bite folks.
>>
>> Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
>
>Jack is actually very good about being handfed. We do carrot stretches
>after every workout, and he knows the whole routine by heart: one bite
>at the heartgirth, then follow the carrot along the belly and up to the
>hip, then down the outside of the front leg to the fetlock, then between
>the legs. He has *never* tried to bite any of us during handfeeding.
>
>That's what's so bewildering about his bad behavior: 90% of his behavior
>is very, very good; very polite, shows a lot of awareness of who is
>boss. But the other 10% makes me want to be rid of him.
He's an excellent candidate for clicker training, since he's clearly
food motivated and can quickly understand food-related cues and
boundaries. There's a great example of retraining a fear-biter in the
book Clicker Training For Your Horse, where she used a technique
called a "noise disk" to act oppositely to the clicker, to train the
horse that certain behaviors (like biting) result in the food going
*away*. You need to get the book and read it to understand how it all
works, and start at the beginning with CT to train the horse with
positive reinforcement before you use the "noise disk", or else the
"noise disk" will have no meaning and not generate the positive
results you seek.
jc
Riding is a partnership.
The horse lends you his strength, speed, and grace,
which are greater than yours.
For your part, you give him your guidance, intelligence, and
understanding, which are greater than his.
Together, you can achieve a richness that alone neither can.
~ Lucy Rees
Mary McHugh
> PS. If you really are going to kill him over this, send him to me.
> Full disclosure and all. I won't sue.
> CMNewell, DVM
I was going to say the same thing, assuming I'm re-employed shortly.
This place needs an Arab around.
Mary
lizzard woman
| sharon writes:
| > I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological source or
| > pain).
|
| There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_ horses
| with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
I gratefully accept that correct.
In a nutshell, no healthy horse is born mean.
lizzard woman
I will soon be investing in typing lessons. Or maybe thinking lessons.
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:DN5_b.577211$JQ1.473342@pd7tw1no...
Claudia Wheatley
Kris Carroll <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote:
> Claudia Wheatley <claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > I have wanted to contact her but frankly I'm a little
> > intimidated/starstruck. Do you really think she'd have time for us?
>
> Of course she will :) for $150
> Print and fill out this form
> http://www.vet.cornell.edu/abc/horse_history.html
> then fax it to the number provided
Y'know, if she can really help it will be worth it at twice the price. I
will try this. Thanks for the shove--I needed it!
Jim Casey
> "John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
> news:87brnr7...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> | with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
>
Please stop using the word "mean." What you are thinking of as
"meanness" is a survival trait.
Some horses are born dominant, aggressive, or defensive. Some become
more aggressive or defensive due to abuse.
My mare (a half-Arabian) was just like the horse that the O.P.
described. Nearly every step in her training was a battle. I still get
laid-back ears from time to time, and I've been riding her for 24 years.
She was always the alpha mare in her herd until her arthritis slowed her
down. She doled out many a kick and bite to other horses.
- Jim
Eileen Morgan
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:DN5_b.577211$JQ1.473342@pd7tw1no...
> "John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
> news:87brnr7...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> | sharon writes:
> | > I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological source
or
> | > pain).
> |
> | There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_
horses
> | with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
>
> I gratefully accept that correct.
> In a nutshell, no healthy horse is born mean.
You still don't get it.
Horses are not "mean"--that assumes a certain level of intellectual
understanding of proper behavior and the willful breaking of social norms in
order to cause and enjoy others' emotional or physical pain. Horses just
ARE. They are dominant, submissive, etc. They are not mean, cruel, spiteful,
etc. They don't have the mental equipment for that sort of thing.
I do believe that all social animals have basic emotions which tie in to
survival as a group animal--these are part of the bonds which keep a herd or
pack together. However, these emotions are not the same as the emotions
humans present because animals lack the sense of self, of time, of an idea
of what things ought to be like instead of what they are currently, etc. So
you might have some sort of very basic form of jealousy
(resource-competition, the resource being the attention of the alpha or
another social companion--my dogs present this sort of emotion) but it is
NOT the same as human jealousy, which has all the 'it should be' and other
intellectual components folded in.
So, there are no "mean" horses as you are using the term.
--
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.585 / Virus Database: 370 - Release Date: 2/11/2004
Kris Carroll
> Please stop using the word "mean." What you are thinking of as
> "meanness" is a survival trait.
>
> Some horses are born dominant, aggressive, or defensive. Some become
> more aggressive or defensive due to abuse.
Yes, temperament is an inherited trait, not an entirely learned
behavior. But when horse people talk among themselves, they use
familiar words and concepts. Rank, dishonest are two I learned
growing up and neither blamed the horse unfairly nor excused the
handler. The word mean is no big deal.
Wallace's Wonderful World
> | There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_
horses
> | with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
>
> I gratefully accept that correct.
>
> In a nutshell, no healthy horse is born mean.
No horse is ever mean, period. As John Hasler clearly pointed out, there are
horses with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
Comprehension not part of your scientific education?
The Waitress
Robin Ryan
> In article <hopf301pdrjl0a817...@4ax.com>,
> CMNewell <res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:58:27 -0800, Kris Carroll
> > <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >You've got Cornell right there, talk to Behavioral Medicine
> > >http://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospital/equine.htm
> >
> > Great idea, Kris!
> > You can't get much better than Dr. Katherine Houpt.
>
> intimidated/starstruck. Do you really think she'd have time for us?
>
expert at the Univ of Minnesota and thought it wasn't appropriate to just
ring him up to ask him a question, but I went ahead and did it. He was
exceedingly nice and down to earth. Don't be intimidated:) She's either
going to be really nice or she'll probably politely ask you to schedule an
appointment. Note that my question was not asking for specific advice about
a specific horse, it was more of a general question. Otherwise, I would have
for sure expected to pay a fee or make an appointment.
Robin
Kris Carroll
> No horse is ever mean, period.
nor are children, but they both do a good job of acting 'mean'
Lou W
"Kris Carroll" <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote in message
news:kcarroll-EBB943...@news.supernews.com...
> "Wallace's Wonderful World" <wheresm...@thediner.com> wrote:
> > No horse is ever mean, period.
>
> nor are children, but they both do a good job of acting 'mean'
>
> K
> --
Nah! Kids don't act mean. They are just fulfilling the curse many
mothers place upon their kids........." I hope when you grow up you have
kids just like yourself".
Lou
ob horses. Wet, muddy, shedding
Jim Casey
> Jim Casey <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>> Please stop using the word "mean."
> ... when horse people talk among themselves, they use
> familiar words and concepts. ... The word mean is no big deal.
I use the word "mean" myself. I had a quarter horse who would walk
under a low tree branch if he knew the rider wouldn't prevent it. While
the rider might consider it to be malicious, I know that he was simply
disposing of a nuisance in the easiest way possible. (And it was much
kinder than lying down and crippling the rider.)
However, this is a typical Usenet semantic discussion, and I believe
there's a point to made about accurate language and clear thinking.
- Jim
Jim Casey
> "Wallace's Wonderful World" <wheresm...@thediner.com> wrote:
>> No horse is ever mean, period.
> nor are children, but they both do a good job of acting 'mean'
On your planet, perhaps. :^)
I have a son, now a teenager, so I have some experience in this area. I
observed intentionally malicious behavior in his cohort from the time
they could talk. I'm referring to behavior like name-calling, tripping,
false accusations, snowballs from behind, etc.
You may have read William Golding's "The Lord of the Flies."
Young children do things that seem selfish or inconsiderate without
thinking about them, like asking, "Why is Grandma so fat?" in Grandma's
presence. If that's what you are referring to, I agree, not everything
that looks malicious is.
- Jim
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
Oooh, Tamara...thanks for the tip!
Hadn't thought of that, but it definitely makes sense.
jrw
Kris Carroll
> However, this is a typical Usenet semantic discussion, and I believe
> there's a point to made about accurate language and clear thinking.
yeah, yeah, I read the last one about saddle accomdation vs fitting.
Pile the manure over there please.
BTW I have 31yo we used to call Princess Credit Card. I've paid my
dues in that arena too. Lord of the Flies ain't nothing compared to
girls :) Ask any Jr Rider if they'd trade their grandmother for a
first place ribbon and say goodbye to the old gal.
Jade
possible if you just put your hand out at rightangles to your body, or lower
if nessessary. But then, most people do this anyway. And by always resting
the food on a flattened palm, if he tries to latch on, there'll be less
likely hood of success. If he does try to get to your food before it's being
offered, whack him one, and put it back in your pocket/whereever. Just make
sure you ahve control over your horse, so that you can stop him trying to
bight your hip! But if your horse is already a problem, then just dont feed
treats. If you feed through the fence at first, that might also help. That
way, he'll not be able to bight you, and will be able to wait until the
horse stops searching for the food before you give it to him.
ö
L.
/\
(see above little stickman - he's holding an apple)
:0) Just my oppinion,
Jade.
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:hqai30h14cd0s9rpf...@4ax.com...
lizzard woman
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net> wrote in message
news:Ab7_b.2694$h86.1...@monger.newsread.com...
|
|
| "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
| news:DN5_b.577211$JQ1.473342@pd7tw1no...
| > "John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
| > news:87brnr7...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
| > | sharon writes:
| > | > I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological
source
| or
| > | > pain).
| > |
| > | There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_
| horses
| > | with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
| >
| > I gratefully accept that correct.
| > In a nutshell, no healthy horse is born mean.
|
| You still don't get it.
|
| Horses are not "mean"--
(snip)
Eileen,
You and others are correcting me on the usage of "mean" in this context as
if the word is not in common parlance or as if I am somehow attempting a
novel usage.
Neither is the case. "Mean" in this context is not only in wide usage but
it connotes pretty much exactly the same thing among the users as far as I
know.
| "--that assumes a certain level of intellectual
| understanding of proper behavior and the willful breaking of social norms
in
| order to cause and enjoy others' emotional or physical pain. Horses just
| ARE. They are dominant, submissive, etc. They are not mean, cruel,
spiteful,
| etc. They don't have the mental equipment for that sort of thing.
I do not agree that "mean" when speaking about horses relates to any
required level of intellectual understanding on the horse's part. It is a
descriptor of a constellation of aggressive actions (biting, kicking,
stomping, etc.) towards others (humans and horse) in response to whatever
stimulus.
lizzard woman
"Wallace's Wonderful World" <wheresm...@thediner.com> wrote in message
news:c1av2...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Finally. A relatively rare contribution from one of the lurkers.
tenwheels
> "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net> wrote in message
> news:Ab7_b.2694$h86.1...@monger.newsread.com...
[...]
> | You still don't get it.
> |
> | Horses are not "mean"--
>
> (snip)
>
> Eileen,
>
> You and others are correcting me on the usage of "mean" in this context as
> if the word is not in common parlance or as if I am somehow attempting a
> novel usage.
>
> Neither is the case. "Mean" in this context is not only in wide usage but
> it connotes pretty much exactly the same thing among the users as far as I
> know.
Use of this language quickly puts one in the category of knowing jack about
horse behavior. Even if you live amongst legions who know jack.
> | "--that assumes a certain level of intellectual
> | understanding of proper behavior and the willful breaking of social
norms
> in
> | order to cause and enjoy others' emotional or physical pain. Horses
just
> | ARE. They are dominant, submissive, etc. They are not mean, cruel,
> spiteful,
> | etc. They don't have the mental equipment for that sort of thing.
>
> I do not agree that "mean" when speaking about horses relates to any
> required level of intellectual understanding on the horse's part. It is a
> descriptor of a constellation of aggressive actions (biting, kicking,
> stomping, etc.) towards others (humans and horse) in response to whatever
> stimulus.
"Mean" requires purposeful, planned and malicious forethought, none of which
the horse has the wherewithal to deliver. Humans infer meanness and ascribe
the behavior on the basis of actions, as you have. You still have it wrong.
Your agreement is neither necessary nor relevant. There are
pukes/sore/injured horses and there are trained horses. The distance
betwixt is vast, but the train doesn't stop in Meanville.
Ruth Baltopoulos
> "Wallace's Wonderful World" <wheresm...@thediner.com>
> wrote:
>> No horse is ever mean, period. As John Hasler clearly
>> pointed out, there are horses with pain, brain
>> abnormalities, or mistraining.
>> Comprehension not part of your scientific education?
> Finally. A relatively rare contribution from one of the
> lurkers.
Is there a reason you have decided to begin harping on 'lurkers', of which
'The Waitress' is definitely not one? Are you attempting to elevate
yourself in status above 'lurkers', who may have the wisdom to keep their
fingers shut when they have nothing to say?
Gad, that you find measure in proliferation rather than content.........
Ruth B
John Hasler
> You and others are correcting me on the usage of "mean" in this context
> as if the word is not in common parlance or as if I am somehow attempting
> a novel usage.
"Common parlance" is often wrong. This is an example.
> "Mean" in this context is not only in wide usage but it connotes pretty
> much exactly the same thing among the users as far as I know.
In my experiece when someone calls a horse "mean" she usually means it in
exactly the same emotionally loaded sense as she would were she referring
to a human. This has consequences.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Eileen Morgan
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7cd_b.592881$X%5.60617@pd7tw2no...
> Eileen,
> You and others are correcting me on the usage of "mean" in this context as
> if the word is not in common parlance or as if I am somehow attempting a
> novel usage.
You are using it like an ignorant person. Plenty of people think animals are
mean or spiteful or doing things just to annoy them. They are 100% wrong and
the connotation of mean is inappropriate when applied to animals. Period.
Jim Casey
discussions. Hasta luego.
- Jim
Tamara Howard
> My 11-year-old Arab gelding Jack is safe and pleasant to ride, but on
> the ground he is hell on wheels and I am out of ideas on how to cope
> with him. >
one question...is all this ugliness from him happening on his near side only ??
Tamara in TN
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
snip
>I do not agree that "mean" when speaking about horses relates to any
>required level of intellectual understanding on the horse's part. It is a
>descriptor of a constellation of aggressive actions (biting, kicking,
>stomping, etc.) towards others (humans and horse) in response to whatever
>stimulus.
However, it creates a certain set of expectations and mindsets in the
handler if they are not careful in how they think and deal with the
animal.
It's one thing to look at an animal, know that it has a tendency
toward aggressive behavior, and deal with such behavior accordingly,
dispassionately, and without any overtones that the animal is making
the behavior personal.
It's entirely another to look at the same animal and consider it
"mean." Far too few people have the ability to think of a problematic
animal in that sort of term without attributing anthropomorphic
characteristics to it.
jrw
Claudia Wheatley
CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET (Tamara Howard) wrote:
Funny you should ask. He snarls a little when I am grooming his right
side, but is much, MUCH nastier about grooming on his near side.
OTOH, he is more likely to try to bite me when I am rubbing the right
side of his face than when I am rubbing the left. I actually wondered if
there was something wrong with his right eye, it was so consistent, but
as near as anyone can tell he see just fine out of that eye.
C
Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
The heroes rest upon the sighs of Thor's trusty Hand maidens
Midnight lonely whisper cries ``We're getting a bit short on heroes lately. ''
--Jethro Tull "Cold Wind to Valhalla"
JJ
Hey Claudia,
<snipped OP>
Well, I'm NOT a trainer or an expert but I did deal with this somewhat
with Comet. First off though, I think Kris' advice about contacting
that person in your area is a GREAT one! Sounds like you have a
valuable resource there and it can't hurt to give it a try! Let us
know how that goes if you do it.
When I first started to ride Comet (I 1/2 leased her at first), she'd
turn and try to bite you if you touched her "armpits"...or if you got
anywhere south of what would be her belly button area. She did NOT
want her "nippies" touched or for anyone to even get NEAR them!
I forget who recommended this, but holding a brush out so the horse
smacks into it is a good idea. Also, when at the elbow area, I would
put MY elbow out...It took several times of Comet yanking her head
around and smacking her face right into my elbow before she got the
message. It can get worse before it gets better too. She learned to
be more "selective" about how much she would tolerate. We'd go a few
days with her being "OK" and then back to being nasty again.
Sometimes catching me by surprise though I, luckily, never had more
than my shirt or jacket end up in her teeth.
Touching the belly was a bit harder...she would actually attempt to
"cow-kick" me if I tried but, fortunately, she's not REALLY that nasty
so most of the kicks were somewhat half-hearted on her part. Your
critter sounds like he may be a little more inclinded to make contact
than Comet was...so keep your safety in mind at all times.
Again, just making Comet let me touch her and making sure she knew
what was required. I would stand very close to her (so if she did
kick out, it would be more of a shove) and slowly work my way closer
to the "offending" area. It took a few weeks to get her to deal
better with the teats being touched.
Now, I can touch her where ever, when ever. She still occasionally
gives me a little tail-swish or turns to look at me with a little bit
of a nasty face when I touch her teats but I just stare back at her
and don't move my hand from the area...she chills out pretty quick and
just stands there. Those teats were pretty crusty the first time I
was finally able to clean them a little bit too. Yuk! ;-)
Comet can still be a little fussy about girth tightening too...I've
found that if I put the saddle on just snug enough to not fall off and
then walk her around a little in a circle, requesting that she cross
over both front and back feet away from me - a little in both
directions, then I can tighten the girth without so much as a twitch
from her. It's really amazing. If I forget this step, she's still OK
but makes a face and turns to look at me. This also really loosens up
her shoulder area I've found and she seems to enjoy it now it's become
a routine. She'll really step over and "stretch" into it. It makes a
difference in those first few minutes after hopping on too. Anyway...
I also made a regular habit of "tickling" her armpits (causing her to
make faces which I then laugh at) until she stops with the faces. She
pretty much ignores it entirely now.
I think you're just going to have to stick to your guns (keeping safe
of course) and be consistent and patient. I've been with Comet now
for almost seven years (owned her now for almost five) and I STILL
have to do remedial "classes" on her tolerating being touched in those
two areas.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes, JJ and Comet, who's just a prude!
Suzan
>However, it creates a certain set of expectations
>and mindsets in the handler if they are not
>careful in how they think and deal with the
>animal.
Yep.
I've seen dominant horses prone to aggressive behavior that were
labelled "mean" or "nasty to the bone" and their handlers would either
constantly fight with the horse with the notion that they're bound and
determined to win or be totally afraid of the horse, back down, and
think (Love) will turn the critter around, while letting "Little Miss
Nasty" do whatever she damn well pleases.
Either way it's encouraging and reinforcing the behavior.
Now, if you take the same horse and it's behavior at face value, then
that's when retraining with consistent and diligent
handling makes all the difference in that horse's existence.
It's a horse... eats, shits, smells, reacts, behaves, just like any
other horse.
Suzan
Claudia Wheatley
jeffe...@hotmail.com (JJ) wrote:
> Claudia Wheatley <claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<claudiawheatley-3D...@news06.east.earthlink.net>...
>
> Hey Claudia,
>
> <snipped OP>
>
>> <snipped helpful comments>
Well, I've only had Jack two years now. I thought that was plenty of
time for him to get with the program, but maybe I'll just have to be
patient. He was good yesterday; a simple "AH!" got the results I was
looking for (ie, the ears came up and the head turned away).
I rode him bareback, too; walk and trot; without incident. Like I said,
he's perfectly safe as long as you stay on his back!
Catja Pafort
> I have a 5 year old mare who I swear was born with her ears pinned. She
> tried to bite me the first time I saw her. She was an hour old and could not
> stand up yet but she was ready to bite.
<g> Reminds me of a foal I knew - he'd just stood up to nurse, mum was
moving about, he kicked, almost fell down, regrouped, and continued
nursing a chastised mum.
> If she is handled daily and reminded
> about nasty faces she is the easiest horse on the farm to handle or ride. If
> you ignore the nasty faces or act like you are intimidated by her she will
> progress to nipping and kicking at you.
I find that ignoring silly faces is often the best way to deal with
them. "You can't intimidate me, I'm so high above you that I ignore your
threats" is a usually rather effective.
Catja
and the Count (who sometimes waves a hindleg in the air in a
non-threatening manner)
Catja Pafort
> My 11-year-old Arab gelding Jack is safe and pleasant to ride, but on
> the ground he is hell on wheels and I am out of ideas on how to cope
> with him. In a nutshell:
>
> 1. There are 2 areas of his body that I am not allowed to touch: behind
> the elbow and the flanks; or he snakes his head around, eyes rolling and
> teeth bared.
What happens then?
Does he merely threaten or follow it through? And how do you react?
One thing that helps with thin-skinned horses is to get them used to
touching with a small tapping motion, so you a) don't put a lot of
pressure on the area and b) aren't leaving the pressure on long enough
for the horse to react to it. Massage will probably be helpful, as a
horse that expects your touch to hurt is likely to tense up, which means
that being touch *will be* painful - so starting with the 'safe' areas
and inducing him to relax will help him to accept being touched in those
areas, too.
My horse is sensitive but polite - he'll pull faces but nothing more,
and so I take it as it was meant - communication - and either clean up
my act or tell him not to be silly and do it anyway; depending on the
situation. It was rather useful when trying out saddles - the ones met
with laid-back ears were out of the equation immediately.
> 2. He loves having his face rubbed with the pimple-mitt--until he
> abruptly decides he's had enough, a point he drives home by suddenly
> trying to bite me. A week ago he succeeded, and even through four layers
> of sleeves, he raised a nasty bruise on my arm.
In that case, I'd stop the face-rubbing alltogether. If it *always*
leads to misbehaviour, there's not much point. And speak sharply to him
when he does. Ideally, you stop *before* he tells you to.
> 3. He hates sudden movements and actually charged me recently when,
> after dismounting, I stepped away awkwardly and waved my arms in the air
> to get my balance.
Ouch. Don't know how to get him used to that, other than by making sure
you introduce weird movements slowly and when he's relaxed. Sounds like
sacking out is needed.
> I actually found myself thinking that if he doesn't get past this,
> the best thing to do would be to put him down--it doesn't seem right to
> sell this problem to someone else.
Do other people have the same problem with him? And can you change his
environment to help him chill out more?
> He has been checked for pain in all his hot spots, I keep his teeth
> floated, he is turned out all day with three other horses without
> incident, is lunged and ridden three to four times a week, and is never
> hot under saddle, so I really don't think he's getting too much grain.
> His previous owner doesn't seem like the abusive type, but I have to
> wonder if at some point someone whacked him around the head, because
> that is the prime danger area.
>
> He is also very territorial about his stall, and I worry that he might
> hurt someone while they are cleaning it.
Not good. What might not be a problem for you or for someone else could
well be a problem for the hired help. Can you find out whether they have
trouble? The way *they* treat him might be a contributing factor.
> Any ideas? If you are going to say, "Get professional help," how will I
> know the right person for the job? There are a lot of self-proclaimed
> horse trainers out there, and having watched some of them in action, I
> can see quite clearly how they could make matters much, much worse.
For this type of horse I'd recommend finding a TTEAM-practitioner, even
if Terry will foam at the mouth. Body awareness and ground manners -
solved in a non-confrontational manner - is what LTJ is good at, and it
sounds as if that could help.
Catja
and the Count
John Hasler
> For this type of horse I'd recommend finding a TTEAM-practitioner, even
> if Terry will foam at the mouth.
He's not the only one.
> Body awareness and ground manners - solved in a non-confrontational
> manner - is what LTJ is good at...
Alex Kurland is better and doesn't go in for loony "new age" nonsense.
Learn about clicker training.
Tamara Howard
> >
> > one question...is all this ugliness from him happening on his near side
> > only ??
>
> Funny you should ask. He snarls a little when I am grooming his right
> side, but is much, MUCH nastier about grooming on his near side.
my thought is that it is a finely ingrained habit on his near
side...and the off side is tabla rasa...start fresh over there and
never give him any reson to be nasty...
I've had more than a few that were just "over it" on the
near side...no biggie to me...we just went to the other one and the
problems evaporated over time..and yes we could even do some work on
the near side again...my advice if you want to keep him is just leave
things be and start fresh
Tamara in TN
Claudia Wheatley
The point that my body language has probably gotten more defensive--thus
suggesting to Jack that the situation is ripe for a coup d'etat--is
well-taken. These last two days I have made a point of approaching him
in a very confident, businesslike manner and not letting any infraction
go unremarked-on. So when I'm currying him and hit a hot spot, I bark
"NO" if he turns his head, and I don't stop currying that spot until he
turns away and relaxes.
Because he clearly enjoys and looks forward to it, I still rub his face
briefly, but stop the minute he curls his lip. Then I use the face brush
just long enough to flatten the hair again (he leans into it, suggesting
that his face is still itchy) and put his halter on. No explosions to
date.
Last night I put him back in his stall and did jumping jacks in front of
him. At first he flattened his ears and glared at me; then, when I
didn't stop, he pricked up his ears ("What the hell is she doing?") and
relaxed. I praised him. Then I grabbed a rake and marched up and down
the aisle singing "76 Trombones" and waving the rake around. The ears
really came up: "What the HELL is she doing???" The idea is to make him
realize that sudden expressive movements are not a threat; and the other
horses seem to find it very entertaining.
The things I do for my critters...
Leann
forget the audio! :-P
"Claudia Wheatley" <ca...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:caw43-5FA3A5....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
Claudia Wheatley
<spam...@somewhere.net> wrote:
> LOL! Hey Claudia... can we have a barn cam shot of you in action? Don't
> forget the audio! :-P
Hey! I was FANTASTIC: Ask Roy!
>
> "Claudia Wheatley" <ca...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
> news:caw43-5FA3A5....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> > A quick update:
<snip>
> > Last night I put him back in his stall and did jumping jacks in front of
> > him. At first he flattened his ears and glared at me; then, when I
> > didn't stop, he pricked up his ears ("What the hell is she doing?") and
> > relaxed. I praised him. Then I grabbed a rake and marched up and down
> > the aisle singing "76 Trombones" and waving the rake around. The ears
> > really came up: "What the HELL is she doing???" The idea is to make him
> > realize that sudden expressive movements are not a threat; and the other
> > horses seem to find it very entertaining.
> >
> > The things I do for my critters...
Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
Suzan
>my thought is that it is a finely ingrained habit
>on his near side...and the off side is tabla
>rasa...
A habit that over time will go away. I don't use a clicker but it's
pretty much the same idea as clicker training. While you softly touch
the areas you know where he's comfortable with you touching and if he's
standing quietly reward him, at the same time of reward tell him he's a
good boy. Play this game with him preferably in the same sequence
(neck...reward/praise....shoulder...reward/praise..
withers....reward/praise...etc.) for a couple days and gradually expand
to other areas according to how long your horse can patiently stand
quietly. Stay away from the areas that you know will cause unfavorable
behavior. You are trying to set your horse up in a win win situation.
If you see his attention span growing thin quit on a good note and pick
it up again tomorrow. Depending on how well your horse takes to the
game, proceed with the sequence and touch very quicly but softly a bad
spot. Before he has time to react reward and praise him. A helper at
his head while going after his flanks is a good idea. Then gradually
instead of a quick soft touch you want to work up to a nice firm steady
touch. I would only work on one bad spot at a time until he's over that
particular one. Basically your desensitising, but with the reward you're
telling him that touching him will get him a prize....even the goosey
parts.
>start fresh over there and never give
him
>any reson to be nasty...
Yes, you want to discourage the behavior, and if he was under my charge
I'd make some management changes....If he's territorial about his stall,
muck it while he's turned out. You want to change this aggressive
behavior to willing behavior. So remove the stimuli that causes this
type of reaction. When you greet him at his stall if he's happy to see
you with ears up and forward and bright eyed give him a carrot. I don't
know if you work Claudia, but is it possible for you to be the only one
in this horse's world for a bit? While you are retraining him, I
wouldn't want someone else handling him and undoing and confusing what
your trying to instill in him. If it's possible cut out his grain
ration. Not because I think that's what's causing his behavior, it's
just IMO horses love their grain and I use that for the reward. While
working with him, I'd cut out the riding and longeing. If he's turned
out he's getting adequate exercise. You want to expend your time
helping your horse. Focus on one aspect at time and plan it out.
And believe it or not "the game" kinda gives you that dominance your
horse is looking for in you...controlling him in a round about way
without going head to head with him.
Behavior modification is all about discouraging unfavorable
behavior...(meaning don't give the beast the opportunity to do what he's
been doing...you're taking away the stimuli that causes the reaction)
while bringing out and encouraging favorable behavior by rewarding and
praising.
Hope this helps:-)
Suzan
Fran Bragg
> A quick update:
<snip some great visuals!>
You really had me laughing this morning! At the track we hung balloons and
flags everywhere to sack out the horses to what they would see on race day.
It always looked like we were having a party!
Fran
WhinPine
Snippage.....
> Last night I put him back in his stall and did jumping jacks in front of
> him. At first he flattened his ears and glared at me; then, when I
> didn't stop, he pricked up his ears ("What the hell is she doing?") and
> relaxed. I praised him. Then I grabbed a rake and marched up and down
> the aisle singing "76 Trombones" and waving the rake around. The ears
> really came up: "What the HELL is she doing???" The idea is to make him
> realize that sudden expressive movements are not a threat; and the other
> horses seem to find it very entertaining.
>
> The things I do for my critters...
LOL. I once made a list entitled *things to spook my horse with* when I was
starting my gelding. I'll have to make up a new one now for my filly.
Never thought of trombones but I did the *boom chug a lug a lug a* scene
from Stripes. Give this one a try - attach a small tarp to your shoulders
ala Superman and *fly* up and down the aisle. Make sure you get the hand
positioning correct. Very important. <G> Have fun with it! - Amy
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Claudia Wheatley
<ako...@yvn.com> wrote:
> attach a small tarp to your shoulders
> ala Superman and *fly* up and down the aisle. Make sure you get the hand
> positioning correct. Very important. <G> Have fun with it! - Amy
LOL! He has a thing about blue tarps, so this might kill two birds with
one stone--I'll try it!
aintli...@yup.com
wrote:
>Last night I put him back in his stall and did jumping jacks in front of
>him. At first he flattened his ears and glared at me; then, when I
>didn't stop, he pricked up his ears ("What the hell is she doing?") and
>relaxed. I praised him. Then I grabbed a rake and marched up and down
>the aisle singing "76 Trombones" and waving the rake around. The ears
>really came up: "What the HELL is she doing???"
Bwahahahahahaaa. Claudia, I would have loved to see that. :-)
ttfn,
jan
Callen Molenda
Actually, why don't you turn it to your advantage and become the latest
exercise craze to hit the US? I can see us all doing jumping jacks in
front of our astonished horses (or dogs, or goldfish, or spouses, for
that matter) while singing 76 trombones and waving a rake - the Bowflex
has nothing on this!
C.
Claudia Wheatley
<ac...@virginia.edu> wrote:
Ooooh; wait, wait, let me slap a trademark on it!
AislAerobix(TM)
There. Now, <a la Richard Simmons> Lllllet's sweat!*
C
*Results enhanced if you wear long underwear and fleece tights and top
on a surprisingly warm evening
JJ
> Catja writes:
> > For this type of horse I'd recommend finding a TTEAM-practitioner, even
> > if Terry will foam at the mouth.
>
> He's not the only one.
>
> > Body awareness and ground manners - solved in a non-confrontational
> > manner - is what LTJ is good at...
>
> Alex Kurland is better and doesn't go in for loony "new age" nonsense.
> Learn about clicker training.
Another good suggestion! I didn't even think of it! I've used
clicker training with Comet on a few things and it really works pretty
fast. Horses really "get it" I think.
Good luck no matter what you try, JJ
JJ
> In article <3a526301.04022...@posting.google.com>,
> jeffe...@hotmail.com (JJ) wrote:
>
> > Claudia Wheatley <claudia...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:<claudiawheatley-3D...@news06.east.earthlink.net>...
> >
> > Hey Claudia,
> >
> > <snipped OP>
> >
> >> <snipped helpful comments>
>
> Well, I've only had Jack two years now. I thought that was plenty of
> time for him to get with the program, but maybe I'll just have to be
> patient. He was good yesterday; a simple "AH!" got the results I was
> looking for (ie, the ears came up and the head turned away).
>
> I rode him bareback, too; walk and trot; without incident. Like I said,
> he's perfectly safe as long as you stay on his back!
Hey again,
Some horses have a hard time letting things go I think. He's probably
been able to get away with this behavior for more than two years prior
to you owning him. I don't know... Keep at it though!
I like to ride Comet bareback too...sitting trot is easier for me that
way! It's just fun in general. Cantering is a hoot too! She also
seems to enjoy it. <grin>
Take care, JJ
Hayward
Claudia Wheatley wrote:
>
> AislAerobix(TM)
>
> There. Now, <a la Richard Simmons> Lllllet's sweat!*
>
> C
>
> *Results enhanced if you wear long underwear and fleece tights and top
> on a surprisingly warm evening
Oh yes, and these will go perfectly with a blue cape this season.
Only one thing: My grandmother always told me horses lather, men sweat,
children perspire, and women glow, so it will have to be, "Lllllet's
glow!" for the ladies.
Barb, w/o a big aisle, and wondering what the neighbors will think.
aintli...@yup.com
>
>
>Claudia Wheatley wrote:
>
>
>>
>> AislAerobix(TM)
>>
>> There. Now, <a la Richard Simmons> Lllllet's sweat!*
>>
>> C
>>
>> *Results enhanced if you wear long underwear and fleece tights and top
>> on a surprisingly warm evening
>
>
>
>Oh yes, and these will go perfectly with a blue cape this season.
>
>
>Only one thing: My grandmother always told me horses lather, men sweat,
>children perspire, and women glow, so it will have to be, "Lllllet's
>glow!" for the ladies.
Ladies?? We've got ladies around here? :-)
ttfn,
jan
Cricket
> I wrote:
> > Bullshit. Horses can easily be taught to take hand-fed food politely.
>
> Cricket writes:
> > Thank you. Please explain this to my customers...
>
> $35/hr plus expenses.
Hmmm, tempting, but I can't afford it - how about I just let you smack 'em
upside the head? ;>)
(The customers, not necessarily the horses...)
> --
> John Hasler
> jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
> Dancing Horse Hill
> Elmwood, WI
Cricket
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:DN5_b.577211$JQ1.473342@pd7tw1no...> news:87brnr7...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> | sharon writes:
> | > I say 100% or mean horses are made (or have some physiological source
or
> | > pain).
> |
> | There are no "mean horses": the phrase makes no sense. There _are_
horses
> | with pain, brain abnormalities, or mistraining.
>
> I gratefully accept that correct.
>
> In a nutshell, no healthy horse is born mean.
I do know some bloodlines (the local version of Dodger's Playboy horses
comes to mind) that certainly would make a person think about that mighty
hard - they all bite like alligators, have an interesting little bull into
you strike on the way by cow kick turning into a double-barreled whammy as
they run over the handler and whack at you on the way by act going...
That said, though they all seem to work with the same dance master, even
though raised in many and varied places, making a big hereditary component
seem likely - they can be managed, and become very nice horses, if handled
like what they are - big, strong, dominant, "make me" sort of critters.
Thankfully, as they get farther from Dodger's Playboy, the traits get
diluted, but I've often correctly identified an own son or daughter without
any hints but their behavior.
Are they mean? No, they're enjoying the heck out of the whole thing, they
love the ruckus, if they were human they'd spend every Saturday night at the
bar starting shit and enjoying a good knock-down dragout. They raise hob
with their pasture mates just for something to do, but they prefer to play
with the humans. However, the end results are the same, mean or no, if
they aren't nipped real quick in the bud (and one I knew years ago just
showed up, at a barn I work at some, but done by another shoer...I've heard
she's "a bit tricky to shoe". ;>)
And you have to be a little careful defining "healthy". A very pushy trait
might be a good thing in a wild horse (providing it didn't starve to death
spending too much time picking on it's buddies) but not a good career move
for a domestic one. Is that unhealthy? Hard to say.
>
> --
> sharon
>
> "You don't seem immune to the "touchy feely" aspects of horse
> ownership...on your website you can be seen embracing your inner
> "Howdy Doody". -- Phil M.
> "Feel free to use a pie chart in your explanation." -- Phil M.
>
Cricket
"Kris Carroll" <kcar...@nothankspam.com> wrote in message
news:kcarroll-277D3D...@news.supernews.com...
> Jim Casey <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> > However, this is a typical Usenet semantic discussion, and I believe
> > there's a point to made about accurate language and clear thinking.
>
> yeah, yeah, I read the last one about saddle accomdation vs fitting.
> Pile the manure over there please.
>
> BTW I have 31yo we used to call Princess Credit Card. I've paid my
> dues in that arena too. Lord of the Flies ain't nothing compared to
> girls :) Ask any Jr Rider if they'd trade their grandmother for a
> first place ribbon and say goodbye to the old gal.
Used to know a Saddlebred mare named Budget Breaker. She was, too...
>
> K
> --
> kcarroll at horse dash country dot com
> agent provocateur and regular poster to rec.eq since early 90s
> manure detector on; fads, gurus, cults, bullies are fair game
Cricket
"Jim Casey" <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:31a_b.7963$J84....@fe1.texas.rr.com...
> Kris Carroll wrote:
>
> > "Wallace's Wonderful World" <wheresm...@thediner.com> wrote:
> >> No horse is ever mean, period.
>
> > nor are children, but they both do a good job of acting 'mean'
>
> On your planet, perhaps. :^)
>
> I have a son, now a teenager, so I have some experience in this area. I
> observed intentionally malicious behavior in his cohort from the time
> they could talk. I'm referring to behavior like name-calling, tripping,
> false accusations, snowballs from behind, etc.
>
> You may have read William Golding's "The Lord of the Flies."
>
> Young children do things that seem selfish or inconsiderate without
> thinking about them, like asking, "Why is Grandma so fat?" in Grandma's
> presence. If that's what you are referring to, I agree, not everything
> that looks malicious is.
>
> - Jim
I was just thinking of "Lord of the Flies" in this context...I'll claim it's
a matter of GMTA.
>
Jim Casey
> ... how about I just let you smack 'em
> upside the head? ;>)
>
> (The customers, not necessarily the horses...)
He-he. One of my friends was holding his horse to be shod by a certain
farrier for the first time. The horse was fidgeting, and the farrier
bellowed, "Cut that out!"
My friend flinched and said, "What did I do?" with a most plaintive look
on his face.
I don't encourage shouting at horses, but it worked for this guy. The
horse stood at attention and held his breath until dismissed.
- Jim
Cricket
"Catja Pafort" <green...@cix.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1g9m7si.1pg0l0l13v5xyjN%green...@cix.co.uk.invalid...
> Jennifer wrote:
>
> > I have a 5 year old mare who I swear was born with her ears pinned. She
> > tried to bite me the first time I saw her. She was an hour old and could
not
> > stand up yet but she was ready to bite.
>
> <g> Reminds me of a foal I knew - he'd just stood up to nurse, mum was
> moving about, he kicked, almost fell down, regrouped, and continued
> nursing a chastised mum.
My daughter's pony colt did that - mom was *not* chastised - colt was laid
out flat, got up with manners...;>)
Her previous owners named her Mariah after some witch in a fairy tale - and
with good reason. That's why I got her free, so I won't fuss.
>
> > If she is handled daily and reminded
> > about nasty faces she is the easiest horse on the farm to handle or
ride. If
> > you ignore the nasty faces or act like you are intimidated by her she
will
> > progress to nipping and kicking at you.
>
> I find that ignoring silly faces is often the best way to deal with
> them. "You can't intimidate me, I'm so high above you that I ignore your
> threats" is a usually rather effective.
I occasionally find that works (they look like they're waiting for the other
shoe to drop - a "when am I going to get the whack I've got coming?" sort of
look...) but not to be relied on. Probably would more often be the case if
I didn't inherit the idjits...;>)
I have known two in thirty seven years of handling probably more than a
thousand horses that I actually had to walk up to and smack *before* they
did anything (an example of how rare I've found this particular personality)
. Any reaction, no matter how hard core, to their aggression they seemed to
take as they were still in charge, as they controlled what I did by causing
me to react (and these two were going to go ahead and kill you if you
didn't react - so ignoring the behavior was not an option). Both of these
were extremely hard on their pasture mates - one was a long yearling who was
in with the two year olds because she was dangerous to her own group, and
she beat all the (twice her size) two years olds up!
Someone bought her to work cattle - always wondered how that went.
Cricket
<aintli...@yup.com> wrote in message
news:h72n30dgemmhbtsq2...@4ax.com...
When I've done this with a customers horse (the jumping jacks, not the rake
thing...) the horses always cope well, but the looks I get from the
owners...
I'm sorry, I don't do the "It's all right, it's all right, calm down."
thing. If he just jumped into my lap it is most certainly *not* all right,
and we'll straighten out his shit my way, or you'll call someone else (get
the feeling I've given this talk before? ;>) Since I'm often there because
everyone else quit, I get to pretty much call my own shots.
Cricket
> Cricket wrote:
>
> > ... how about I just let you smack 'em
> > upside the head? ;>)
> >
> > (The customers, not necessarily the horses...)
>
> He-he. One of my friends was holding his horse to be shod by a certain
> farrier for the first time. The horse was fidgeting, and the farrier
> bellowed, "Cut that out!"
>
> My friend flinched and said, "What did I do?" with a most plaintive look
> on his face.
Hah! Been there!
>
> I don't encourage shouting at horses, but it worked for this guy. The
> horse stood at attention and held his breath until dismissed.
I bellow a bit - I'm very small, and I *will* appear fierocious when
necessary! That said, I consider a bellow a punishment, just like a smack
or backing the horse or whatever. I *do not* expect them to learn to do
something from it, just to *not* do something. And I bellow only to the
degree necessary - I've had a pushy horse more than once jump back when I
leap up, wave my arms (hey, I'm 5'1", I need all the oomph I can get) and
bellow...then by the third time he tries whatever, a little "ah-ah!!" will
do the trick. I am always below the horse's eye level unless it's very
small (even then - after all, I spend my life bent over!), that is not a
good position to appear dominant from, and so I'll take any advantages I can
get. I prefer short and hard - "Quit!" better than "Cut that out!", it's
more like a quick pop and then let them alone to see if they take the
opportunity to be a civilized child, but whatever works, works!
>
> - Jim
>
Jim Casey
> ... I prefer short and hard - "Quit!" better than "Cut that out!",
Said farrier (whose name, ironically, was Warning) made "cut that out"
sound like three rounds from an AK-47.
- Jim