question about orphan foals
lizzard woman
I recently found out the horse I ride in my lessons was an orphan. Since he
is such a puppy dog, I asked if he was hand-reared. He was not but instead
was brought to a mare who had recently lost her foal.
I was just wondering if a dam who lost her foal will always accept an orphan
foal. Is time of the essence in doing the introduction?
Thanks in advance.
--
love,
el mangosteeno
"Bullshit." -- T. Stovall
"Riding horses doesn't always need to be some sort of earth shattering
rocket science every flippin' moment you're astride." -- Ruth CM
John Hasler
> I was just wondering if a dam who lost her foal will always accept an
> orphan foal.
No. It's usually quite difficult to get her to do so.
There are notable exceptions, though. A neighbor brought his orphaned
Percheron filly to see if we could foster her to our arabian mare Ruffian.
She had foaled Picklewing at about the same time his filly was born, but
Picklewing was (and is) very much alive. I brought the filly, staggering
with weakness from hunger, into the shed as Robin held Ruffian, prepared to
twitch her if necessary. Ruffian took one look at the filly and cocked a
leg, saying "You poor dear, you need some milk. You come right over here."
Ruffian nursed both the Percheron filly and Picklewing with no problems for
about four months. She had a bag like a Holstein. I trained the filly to
drink milk replacer from a bucket but I don't think it was necessary.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Dawn Lawson
John Hasler wrote:
> el mangosteeno writes:
>
>>I was just wondering if a dam who lost her foal will always accept an
>>orphan foal.
>
>
> No. It's usually quite difficult to get her to do so.
>
> There are notable exceptions, though.
What a great story!
Anyone have any experience skinning the dead foal and draping the hide
over the back of the orphan? I've seen that recommended several times,
in various places.
Alberta has a nursemare and colostrum registry. http://www.cyberfoal.com/
lizzard woman
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:873c7z7...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
Wow. That's wonderful!
Thanks.
sharon
Robby Johnson
As most of you know my Ti Amo was an orphan at 5 days when we had to
euthanize my mare Willow.
He was raised by bucket, and turned out with a pony mare when he was about 8
weeks old.
He is fine now, though he has some characteristics that are depictive of
being an orphan, mostly in his favor (he's very easy to handle).
Robby
"Dawn Lawson" <dlawson...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:eT68c.895471$X%5.226678@pd7tw2no...
SugrRain
>foal. Is time of the essence in doing the introduction?
I think it depends upon the individual mare in question. I have "grafted"
foals onto 2 mares . The first had lost her foal and I needed to lightly
sedate and tie her up and let the foal ( a newborn) nurse for 5 minutes or so
for a day, to let the new mom get used to baby. All worked well.
The second mare took a 2 1/2 month old foal whose dam was put down due to a
twist. This mare took no transition time and already had her own foal. By the
next am she was letting both foals nurse. Her next experience was a 2 month
old foal whose dam had to put down for a collapsing knee. As I knew my mare
would take it I just put him in with her. 30 seconds later she had her own
baby! Of course this time around she did not have milk, but we put them
together because of the socialization factor. This particular mare was a
saint in my book, and this foal went on to a very good career as a rope horse,
placing 4th at the AQHA World show in roping.
I have raise them with the dam when the dam had no milk, bucket feeding the
foal. I left that one with the dam for socialization reasons. Sadly she was
such a poor mom that he would have been better off on another mare. He had
that orphan mind, like he was a dog instead of a horse. That was my fault
because I felt so badly for him that I babied him.
Carolyn
SugrRain
I keep a colostrum bank here at my ranch, with colostrum from good producing
mares. It is renewed each foaling season so it is new. I have taped into it
many many times over the years, and have given others colostrumfor their foals
when they had a problem.
Carolyn
Dawn Lawson
Robby Johnson wrote:
> Good God, how macabre.
Well, you know, if it will make the mare accept the foal, is it macabre
or practical? I had a feeling that this might be the response, and
perhaps why it is not spoken of anymore.
Dawn
--
"From there to here, from here to there, funny things are everywhere."
-Dr. Seuss
lizzard woman
news:20040324093815...@mb-m02.aol.com...
(snip)
He had
| that orphan mind, like he was a dog instead of a horse. That was my fault
| because I felt so badly for him that I babied him.
This is a very apt description of the horse I ride... puppy dog, even though
he did have a new dam. Maybe the owner babied him a lot. Maybe that's why
is so obedient at all times and licks your hand when you put it out. ; )
Don Bruder
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "SugrRain" <sugr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040324093815...@mb-m02.aol.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> He had
> | that orphan mind, like he was a dog instead of a horse. That was my fault
> | because I felt so badly for him that I babied him.
>
> This is a very apt description of the horse I ride... puppy dog, even though
> he did have a new dam. Maybe the owner babied him a lot. Maybe that's why
> is so obedient at all times and licks your hand when you put it out. ; )
Heck, I've got a filly that thinks humans are lolipops. If you give her
the chance, she'll give you a tongue-bath from head to toe. Never any
teeth (Yay... Nipped that one before it got to be a problem) but lick,
lick, lick, lick, lick...
I keep trying to decide if the four-letter word that applies is "love"
or "salt" :)
Of course, this is the same silly filly that gives every indication of
liking it when you grab onto her tounge and play with it for a while...
--
Don Bruder - dak...@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.
Jim Casey
> Heck, I've got a filly that thinks humans are lolipops. If you give her
> the chance, she'll give you a tongue-bath from head to toe. Never any
Have you no idea how kinky that sounds?
- Jim
Don Bruder
Jim Casey <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote:
Jim, Jim, Jim... Get your mind out of the gutter, and back into the
septic tank, where it belongs! :) :)
(Guess I ought to check and be certain this didn't get cross-posted over
to a bestiality group, huh?)
Dawn Lawson
Don Bruder wrote:
> In article <AEh8c.900127$X%5.581307@pd7tw2no>,
> "lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>"SugrRain" <sugr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:20040324093815...@mb-m02.aol.com...
>>
>>(snip)
>>
>> He had
>>| that orphan mind, like he was a dog instead of a horse. That was my fault
>>| because I felt so badly for him that I babied him.
>>
>>This is a very apt description of the horse I ride... puppy dog, even though
>>he did have a new dam. Maybe the owner babied him a lot. Maybe that's why
>>is so obedient at all times and licks your hand when you put it out. ; )
>
>
>
> Heck, I've got a filly that thinks humans are lolipops. If you give her
> the chance, she'll give you a tongue-bath from head to toe. Never any
> teeth (Yay... Nipped that one before it got to be a problem) but lick,
> lick, lick, lick, lick...
>
> I keep trying to decide if the four-letter word that applies is "love"
> or "salt" :)
>
> Of course, this is the same silly filly that gives every indication of
> liking it when you grab onto her tounge and play with it for a while...
Yup, my gelding is exactly the same way. Splut. Here ya go. (yuk)
Dawn
lizzard woman
| In article <V1i8c.94303$u_5....@fe2.texas.rr.com>,
| Jim Casey <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote:
|
|| Don Bruder wrote:
||| Heck, I've got a filly that thinks humans are lolipops. If you give
||| her the chance, she'll give you a tongue-bath from head to toe.
||| Never any teeth ... but lick, lick, lick, lick, lick...
||
|| Have you no idea how kinky that sounds?
|
| Jim, Jim, Jim... Get your mind out of the gutter, and back into the
| septic tank, where it belongs! :) :)
|
| (Guess I ought to check and be certain this didn't get cross-posted
| over to a bestiality group, huh?)
Sorry but it has already be reposted on alt.sodomy.should.be.legal
Don Bruder
Dawn Lawson <dlawson...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Don Bruder wrote:
> > I keep trying to decide if the four-letter word that applies is "love"
> > or "salt" :)
> >
> > Of course, this is the same silly filly that gives every indication of
> > liking it when you grab onto her tounge and play with it for a while...
>
> Yup, my gelding is exactly the same way. Splut. Here ya go. (yuk)
Bah... Wimp! When's the last time a little horse slobber ever killed
anybody? :)
Sheryl Reasonover
>Yup, my gelding is exactly the same way. Splut. Here ya go. (yuk)
It really isn't that awful unless they have been eating new grass and then you
get the green foam yuck.
Dawn Lawson
I have jackets with missing buttons from his "attentions" and he's quite
spectacularly slobbery.
I don't MIND too much, but it gets frustrating trying not catch anything
in the bridle.... ;-)
Dawn
Deb Hill
> In article <V1i8c.94303$u_5....@fe2.texas.rr.com>,
> Jim Casey <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> > Don Bruder wrote:
> > > Heck, I've got a filly that thinks humans are lolipops. If you give her
> > > the chance, she'll give you a tongue-bath from head to toe. Never any
> > > teeth ... but lick, lick, lick, lick, lick...
> >
> > Have you no idea how kinky that sounds?
>
> Jim, Jim, Jim... Get your mind out of the gutter, and back into the
> septic tank, where it belongs! :) :)
>
> (Guess I ought to check and be certain this didn't get cross-posted over
> to a bestiality group, huh?)
Yeah you'd better watch that, those sickos'll be descending on your
place in droves wanting to date your filly!
Robby Johnson
and all. But skinning a dead foal? And then draping it on the other one?
Bleck!
"Dawn Lawson" <dlawson...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Vph8c.900101$X%5.295198@pd7tw2no...
Don Bruder
"Robby Johnson" <robbyj...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I agree with you that the ends should justify the means. I mean, it's dead
> and all. But skinning a dead foal? And then draping it on the other one?
> Bleck!
Been standard practice for ages, guy. The mare/foal (and many other
mother/offspring) bond has long been known to have a HUGE scent
component. Make the orphan smell like the baby mom expects, and she's
much more likely to let it suck and/or claim it as her own.
It might gross you out, but when you're talking about keeping the foal
alive, it sure beats the bejeebers out of letting it starve to death...
Jim Casey
> I agree with you that the ends should justify the means. I mean, it's dead
> and all. But skinning a dead foal? And then draping it on the other one?
> Bleck!
After a couple of messy foalings and the death of a mare and a foal, it
may not seem a big deal.
Of course, I would long since have fainted.
- Jim
Dawn Lawson
Robby Johnson wrote:
> I agree with you that the ends should justify the means. I mean, it's dead
> and all. But skinning a dead foal? And then draping it on the other one?
> Bleck!
>
Yes, it's icky. I wouldn't do it for any reason other than to save a
foal. I guess the word that stirred me was macabre. I'm not ghoulish,
but I do see how my wording might sound flip...what I was wondering was
if it was still done, and if it works (since it is rather gory to do if
it has a low rate of success)
Dawn Lawson
Jim Casey wrote:
Gads, you're on a roll with hilarity this week, Jim.
Dawn, still chuckling over the x/y chromosome post.
John Hasler
> It might gross you out, but when you're talking about keeping the foal
> alive, it sure beats the bejeebers out of letting it starve to death...
Rubbing the orphan foal with the placenta of the dead one should work at least
as well. Bottle-feeding the orphan with milk from the mare will also help.
Dawn Lawson
John Hasler wrote:
> Don Bruder writes:
>
>>It might gross you out, but when you're talking about keeping the foal
>>alive, it sure beats the bejeebers out of letting it starve to death...
>
>
> Rubbing the orphan foal with the placenta of the dead one should work at least
> as well.
Ah, that was something else I meant to ask about. somewhat less
gruesome, and more easily done.
> Bottle-feeding the orphan with milk from the mare will also help.
In what way? Get the taste of the mare to the foal? Is it usually the
mare that rejects the foal? Does the orphan ever reject the mare (and
not because it's failing and not able to stand and suckle)?
Dawn
Jorene Downs
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote ...
> Don Bruder writes:
> > It might gross you out, but when you're talking about keeping the foal
> > alive, it sure beats the bejeebers out of letting it starve to death...
>
> Rubbing the orphan foal with the placenta of the dead one should work at
least
> as well. Bottle-feeding the orphan with milk from the mare will also
help.
Another option is to rub the outside of a foal blanket thoroughly on the
dead foal, then have the orphan wear it when introduced to the dead foal's
dam. If the foal has already worn a foal blanket, place it inside-out on the
orphan. Either way, the side that smells like the mare's foal is on the
outside of the blanket for the mare to smell when the orphan is introduced.
Simpler and faster than skinning the dead foal, and I've seen it work. ;)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Jorene
just moseyin' down the trail on a Paint horse
from the CEOates Ranch in California
www.CEOates.com
Live foaling stall camera & CHAT on
www.CEOates.com/webcam.html
Robby Johnson
time you'd accomplished that feat the critical foal would be long gone.
I wasn't calling you "macabre," just the process of skinning a dead foal. I
grew up way down South. Skinning dead animals is something that has always
perplexed me. I have seen pigs/deer/cows/rabbits/squirrels/dove/quail all
dressed, and have literally been chased by chickens with their heads cut off
(my dad has a great sense of humor) but my impression of skinning anything
dead is that it takes quite a bit of time to separate the hide from the
flesh.
Robby
"Dawn Lawson" <dlawson...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:MCp8c.901488$X%5.566187@pd7tw2no...
Pinkhouses1961
>
>
> Robby Johnson wrote:
> > I agree with you that the ends should justify the means. I mean, it's
dead
> > and all. But skinning a dead foal? And then draping it on the other
one?
> > Bleck!
> >
>
> Yes, it's icky. I wouldn't do it for any reason other than to save a
> foal. I guess the word that stirred me was macabre. I'm not ghoulish,
> but I do see how my wording might sound flip...what I was wondering was
> if it was still done, and if it works (since it is rather gory to do if
> it has a low rate of success)
Icky(maybe less so, and easier), but seen practised here with calfs and
foals. Remove the tail with a bit of hide from the dead foal, and braid/lace
to the tail of the orphan. We had an orphan about a month back, first one in
years. We had to get a commerical nurse mare(so no dead foal), and she was
not a proven nurse mare, but she was all we could get at the time. Long
story short - after about 10 days of 24/7 supervised nursing, physical
restraints, and good drugs she finally took him...though we sure doubted
often if she was going to work out. Would have been much easier for all to
have put him on a bucket, but the TB racing industry frowns on "bucket
babies" due to the non-performing reputation.
Dawn Lawson
Robby Johnson wrote:
> How exactly might one go about skinning a dead foal? I would suspect by the
> time you'd accomplished that feat the critical foal would be long gone.
>
> I wasn't calling you "macabre," just the process of skinning a dead foal. I
> grew up way down South. Skinning dead animals is something that has always
> perplexed me. I have seen pigs/deer/cows/rabbits/squirrels/dove/quail all
> dressed, and have literally been chased by chickens with their heads cut off
> (my dad has a great sense of humor) but my impression of skinning anything
> dead is that it takes quite a bit of time to separate the hide from the
> flesh.
>
Really? IME only if you want to do a pretty job.
Dawn, thinking placenta would be better, if it's around to be used.
Don Bruder
"Robby Johnson" <robbyj...@comcast.net> wrote:
> How exactly might one go about skinning a dead foal? I would suspect by the
> time you'd accomplished that feat the critical foal would be long gone.
>
> I wasn't calling you "macabre," just the process of skinning a dead foal. I
> grew up way down South. Skinning dead animals is something that has always
> perplexed me. I have seen pigs/deer/cows/rabbits/squirrels/dove/quail all
> dressed, and have literally been chased by chickens with their heads cut off
> (my dad has a great sense of humor) but my impression of skinning anything
> dead is that it takes quite a bit of time to separate the hide from the
> flesh.
Only if you care about creating a usable hide. Skinning out a dead foal
for the purpose intended here is about a 4-5 minute hack job, if that,
since it doesn't matter how "neatly" the task gets done, as long as it
gets done quickly, and the resulting hide can be hung on the orphan for
half a day or so.
"Oops, poked a hole" means a worthless hide for most situations. Lumps
of meat attached make a hide more difficult to work with, and so on, but
these things simply don't matter even a little in the case of trying to
graft a foal onto a mare - In almost every case, the hide is going to be
discarded once it has served the purpose of getting the mare to accept
the orphan. She cares more about the smell than the "prettiness" of your
skinning job.
lizzard woman
| (snip)
|
| Would have been much easier for all to
| have put him on a bucket, but the TB racing industry frowns on
| "bucket babies" due to the non-performing reputation.
Is that reputation deserved? It is purportedly due to being on (inferior)
substitute milk or is it behavioral?
MGreen6822
>Date: 3/24/2004 9:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040324093815...@mb-m02.aol.com>
>
>>I was just wondering if a dam who lost her foal will always accept an orphan
>
>I think it depends upon the individual mare in question. I have "grafted"
>foals onto 2 mares . The first had lost her foal and I needed to lightly
>sedate and tie her up and let the foal ( a newborn) nurse for 5 minutes or
>so
>for a day, to let the new mom get used to baby. All worked well.
>
>The second mare took a 2 1/2 month old foal whose dam was put down due to a
>twist. This mare took no transition time and already had her own foal. By
>the
>next am she was letting both foals nurse. Her next experience was a 2 month
>old foal whose dam had to put down for a collapsing knee. As I knew my mare
>would take it I just put him in with her. 30 seconds later she had her own
>baby! Of course this time around she did not have milk, but we put them
>together because of the socialization factor. This particular mare was a
>saint in my book, and this foal went on to a very good career as a rope
>horse,
>placing 4th at the AQHA World show in roping.
>I have raise them with the dam when the dam had no milk, bucket feeding the
>foal. I left that one with the dam for socialization reasons. Sadly she
>was
>such a poor mom that he would have been better off on another mare. He had
>that orphan mind, like he was a dog instead of a horse. That was my fault
>because I felt so badly for him that I babied him.
>
>
>
>I have two mares that have been raised together since they were about 3 months
old, they foaled last August one week apart, they were in the large grass
paddock together and I noticed the one foal would go to the other foals mom and
nurse with the other foal and she never cared but the second foal better not go
to the other mom she wouldnt have it,after they got about a month old then the
first mare that they both were going to gently stopped her friends foal from
nursing her,I was beginning to think he was a glutton because he nursed his own
mom too. but after watching I think he thought it was ok whoever was closest.
Mary
>
>
JC Dill
<Pinkhou...@aol.com> wrote:
>We had to get a commerical nurse mare
I would like to talk with you about this, but email sent to your
posting address bounces. My posting address is a valid email address,
so I would appreciate it if you would email me. Thanks.
jc
Riding is a partnership.
The horse lends you his strength, speed, and grace,
which are greater than yours.
For your part, you give him your guidance, intelligence, and
understanding, which are greater than his.
Together, you can achieve a richness that alone neither can.
~ Lucy Rees
maggie green
If you can get a copy of it it will answer your questions.
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:%t58c.139356$Up2.29016@pd7tw1no...
> Petra's foal pictures reminded me of a question I was meaning to ask...
>
> I recently found out the horse I ride in my lessons was an orphan. Since
he
> is such a puppy dog, I asked if he was hand-reared. He was not but
instead
> was brought to a mare who had recently lost her foal.
>
> I was just wondering if a dam who lost her foal will always accept an
orphan
> foal. Is time of the essence in doing the introduction?
>
Pinkhouses1961
> Pinkhouses1961 wrote:
> | (snip)
> |
> | Would have been much easier for all to
> | have put him on a bucket, but the TB racing industry frowns on
> | "bucket babies" due to the non-performing reputation.
>
> Is that reputation deserved? It is purportedly due to being on (inferior)
> substitute milk or is it behavioral?
IMO/E, yes. Specifically, the high performance(racing, timed speed events
etc) foals seem to lack an edge(grit) when bucket raised(with the rare
exceptions). I'd expect that involves other factors besides the bucket -
isolation, enviornmental, early social development etc. The substitute milk
products have greatly improved, and I don't think that is the problem
John Hasler
> I'd expect that involves other factors besides the bucket - isolation,
> enviornmental, early social development etc.
There is no need to isolate a foal just because it is being bucket fed.
> The substitute milk products have greatly improved, and I don't think
> that is the problem
It's probably the origin of the myth. Once these things are established
they tend to perpetuate themselves.
--
John Hasler You may treat this work as if it
jo...@dhh.gt.org were in the public domain.
Dancing Horse Hill I waive all rights.
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Pinkhouses1961
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:87r7vf8...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> Pinkhouses1961 writes:
> > I'd expect that involves other factors besides the bucket - isolation,
> > enviornmental, early social development etc.
>
> There is no need to isolate a foal just because it is being bucket fed.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, orphan foals often get in isolation situations
due to them being an orphan.