Dressage Training Aid Question
Bonney
really just started to see some improvements in getting her to go 'on the
bit' consistantly. We recently took our second lesson from a very
accomplished instructor who tried a schooling aide that I had never seen
or heard of before. I am interested in any comments/experiences from the
group...
What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
correct position without any force - almost but not quite like the
principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare tighten
against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
didn't happen either).
Thanks in advance
Bonney
(Schooling her first baby and enjoying every minute except the ones on
the ground)
Jim or Laura Behning
>What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>correct position without any force - almost but not quite like the
>principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare tighten
>against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
>letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
>didn't happen either).
You did'nt say if this was on the lunge or under saddle. Under saddle this
could be extremely dangerous were the horse to trip or panic; she might feel
so restricted as to worsen the situation enormously, and you would be in
danger as well. On the lunge the same things are possible but *you* are less
likely to be hurt (I have seen a horse rear up fighting a gadget while on the
lunge, lose his balance as his head was restricted, fall over landing on his
head and die almost instantly) At any rate, I am not a fan of any type of
gadget as I feel they are poor substitutes for a good rider's soft hands. You
cannot *show* in these types of "crutches" either. To me, there is just no
better way to teach a horse to come on the bit other than the classical method
of riding him up to it from behind. Its slow going to be sure, but better for
the horse's mind and body than the force a gadget *can*(even if loosely
applied) exert on a horse's unprepared muscles.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Diane Cooke
>
>>I am schooling my young TB mare (5 yrs going on 2) in dressage and have
>really just started to see some improvements in getting her to go 'on the
>bit' consistantly. We recently took our second lesson from a very
>accomplished instructor who tried a schooling aide that I had never seen
>or heard of before. I am interested in any comments/experiences from the
>group...
>
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>correct position without any force - almost but not quite like the
>principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare tighten
>against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
>letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
>didn't happen either).
>Bonney
Hi Bonney,
What your instructor used is known as a "neck stretcher" (lovely name
ain't it?). A clinician I used a while back used one on my TB (off track)
also. I felt that it helped her esp. in the canter to realize that she
could round her neck and back instead of poking her nose. Like any
aid it has its place. I don't think I would use it very much on
a green horse since their muscles aren't really ready for it. However,
it has been my experience that race trained TB's, once they understand
leg aids and that rein contact doesn't mean "go faster" can benefit
from the neck stretcher. As you found out, it is a passive device
unless needed; and unlike draw reins, don't need any rider participation.
Remember, it takes a long time to get a horse consistantly on the
bit. Your best aids are patience and perserverance.
Good Luck,
Diane
>Diane Cooke Opinions expressed are not
dco...@llnl.gov necessarily those of LLNL.
Peter Russell
Cami's reply. I agree with Cami about getting the horse to establish
a frame from behind. I have a 6 year old TB I got one year ago. She
had raced and was very grabby at the bit and eager to run, particularly
as the speed increased. She spent four months with a natural
horsemanship-type trainer (style of Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, John
Lyons). He taught her in a very gentle manner to give to pressure
- no gadgets, no heavy hands, no roughness, but always encouraging her
to use her rear end. We have continued to work with her in that
way and she easily gets into frame with light contact and in a very
mild snaffle (or hackamore at times). Note that the frame we achieve is
appropriate for her stage of development - it is not the
highly collected frame of 4th level horses, nor should it be right
now. It has also taken a number of months for
the horse to develop the muscles necessary
to attain the balance needed for sustained work in a good frame -
this is expected of any athlete, horse human, or whatever. We expect
to continue this slow progression for months and years to come
as we continue her training.
Peter Russell
ye...@reed.edu
BK4Leg
Cami Engler was polite about it in her reply , but
..
let's see - green 5 yr old TB, second lesson - and this instructor was
looking for a frame !!! what is the rush ??
Dressage is about building for the long term, not quick fixes. That, IMO,
is why
we keep our training equipment simple, focussing on gradual development.
Forward, with good rhythm comes way before head position. Right now she
is pre-training; even at training level, one need not be in a frame
(separate arguments can be held on that!). Work on getting her moving
forward, steadily,
balanced, bending on curved figures; build towards the ability to move
out and come back within a gait. strive for that willing harmony, given
softly, freely.
CAMI ENGLER
Dear Bonney,
IMHO....Find a new instructor! This method is ludicrous! However,
the use of these "gadgets" is unfortunatly practiced by many so called
"dressage" riders in this country. If you persue this "training method"
you will end up with a false frame and a "set head". You will ultimatly
limit the true ability of your horse.
The "frame" is a dynamic concept, it originates from movement. The
frame is a result of the horse properly transmitting the force of the
push from the hind leg through the spine. If the force is transmitted
properly, the horse will come into "frame" or "come on the bit". No
bungee cord needed, it is natural! However, it is not as easy as it
sounds. The horse may try to evade in a number of different ways. Not
because he wants to, but because the effort is a difficult one. He will
develop certain contractions which he will try to protect. It is your
job to identify them and position the horse so that he can transmit that
hind leg energy properly, hence he comes on to the bit.
>I am schooling my young TB mare (5 yrs going on 2) in dressage and have
>really just started to see some improvements in getting her to go 'on
the
bit' consistantly. We recently took our second lesson from a very
>accomplished instructor who tried a schooling aide that I had never
seen
>or heard of before. I am interested in any comments/experiences from
the
>group...
>
>What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs
around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>correct position without any force
How is there not any "force", a bungee cord is like a big rubber band is
it not? The horse has to feel some tension to keep its head "in the
correct position", correct? This is no different than say...side/slide
reins, which are popular useless "gadgets" as well.
almost but not quite like the
>principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare
tighten
>against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
>letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
>didn't happen either).
Oh no, we wouldn't want her to get caught in the "gadget" either. This
would not be a consideration if you asked the horse to come into frame
naturally (i.e. without bungee cords). I am sorry to sound so harsh, I
did not mean for this to sound like a "flame". I am sure this
"instructor" is someone you respect and you value their opinion. I just
get fired up when I hear of these new "gadgets" to get your horse to do
something he will do naturally, if the rider knows how to achieve it and
where the frame originates from...BEHIND, not front to back.
We can talk more off line if I haven't totally offended you, which I
assure you was not my intention. For more info...see Dressage & CT
articles written by Jean Luc Cornille on "Biomechanics".
Best Wishes!
Sincerly,
Cami (cen...@ix.netcom.com)
Susanne Sellar
>What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>principles of the Chambon.
>
Here in Scotland my instructress uses that technique only when lungeing.
It encourages not only the horses head to come down to the correct
position but to stretch the muscles over it's topline, thus strengthening
it's back muscles. It's a very good aid for strenghtening young horses
back before you ever get on. You have to be very careful when first
introducing it to a horse as sometimes they panic as they realise they
can't do what they want.
>
>
>
Janine Klein
>looking for a frame !!! what is the rush ??
I just must put in my 2 cents! What is the rush? Where are you trying
to go? Grand Prix. No matter how good the rider or how good the horse
it's still going to take a long time. And once you get there it's only
a very small portion of the horse's career. Take your time and enjoy the
journey. And if you do it in a way you can be proud of, the destination
is going to feel like you've arrived in heaven.
--
Regards,
Janine
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Philippa Sumison
In a previous article, ms...@msg.ti.com (Bonney) says:
your description of the "bungee" cord over the poll sounds like it
would ork, I've seen it in operation and I would never use it on
any horse of mine. It is essentially a modern equivalent of something
known as a nerve line - used for breaking unruly horses, or nowadays
as a quick fix gadge to get a horse" "looking" like they are round.
Remember that the poll is one of the most sensitive areas on a horse,
it is my understanding (and someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm
sure) that the nerve supply for the head all goes through this area.
Damage to this area is very easily done - e.g. head bashing injuries
in
trailers etc. - and can result in some horrid problems.
It sounds to me like your trainer is rushing things a bit with your horse.
Going on the bit is not accomplished by putting the horse's head in
the right position, it is achieved by literally getting the back end of
the horse underneath him, which, due to physics of motion, results in
the horse naturally rounding over the poll and tucking his nose. This
is only achieved by careful and consistent work, and the muscling up of the
areas necessary for the horse to step under himself. If you prematurely
place the horse's head in the position you think is correct you will
be putting undue strain on the horse's back muslces, which will set
up a cycle of soreness and hollowness resulting in your horse never
rounding unless he/she is in this rig. The rig you describe sounds
little less severe than some I have seen, since it includes the
bungy and has some give. However, it worries me that your trainer
would use such a device in the first place, since IMHO it appears
to demonstrate a lack of understanding of the principles of getting
a horse to go on the bit in the first place. Don't forget, your horse
is only five and should not be expected to travel in a 'grand prix"
type of frame. The best method for getting those back muscles good
and ready for the rounding up work is actually to get your horse to
work ina long and low frame and stretch out over his top line,
reaching for the ground. Only when these muscles are both strong
and supple will you achieve the rounding necessary throughout the
horse's WHOLE body to achieve a proper frame (hate that word).
Sorry to sound so pedantic, I don't mean too, its just that I have
seen some very nice willing and happy horses turned into sore, cranky
and explosive beasts by people using quick fix gadgets.
I am not saying that it is a tool that should never be used, just
that it is one that I personally do not favour, and one that should only
be used on rare occasion perhaps as a reminder or to solve a very
different problem fromthat of getting a horse on the bit.
I hope that you continue to have superb rides and get that satisfying
sensation of your horse travelling well underneath you, and believe
me, when it happens properly and with the proper aids, it is the
best experience ever.
Again, this is just my opinion and I am sure that many others will differ, but
since you posted your question I assumed you woul be open to different
ideas - plesae don't think me a horrid, opinionated, mouthy person!
I wish you the best in your continued training. It sounds like your
horse has lots of promise and is obviously nice and quiet to work with.
As in all things, moderation is best, do only that which you are
comfortable with, and if you aren't sure, don't be swayed by someone
who appears to have more training than yourself. Ultimately, most
horse owners know more than they think they do about their own animals,
but of course as we all know, working with horses is a lifetime of
education and I don't think any of us graduate much further than
kindergarden!!!!
Pip
sidney, BC, Vancouver Island
p...@ios.bc.ca
--
Pip Sumsion }"My treasures neither clink nor {
Sidney, BC, Vancouver Island } glitter, but gleam in the sun {
p...@ios.bc.ca } and neigh in the night.".... {
James Sutherland
> IMHO....Find a new instructor! This method is ludicrous! However,
> the use of these "gadgets" is unfortunatly practiced by many so called
> "dressage" riders in this country. If you persue this "training method"
> you will end up with a false frame and a "set head". You will ultimatly
> limit the true ability of your horse.
>
>>
> >What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
> >place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs
> around
> >the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
> >correct position without any force
>
I have seen a top British dressage rider use elasticated side reins
when lunging (or longing but not lounging) a young horse (with and
without a rider on its back). The technique is not ludicrous if
applied properly. The fact that the bungee rope can stretch is
important - if the horse sticks its nose out a bit it feels a light
force back. If it sticks its head out more it feels a stronger
force. It is important (IMHO) that the cord is long enough that the
force is not strong and should be flexible enough to let the horse
stretch fully. The point is not to force it into a false frame but
to encourage it to come forward into a forgiving contact just as if
there was a rider holding the reins (only with an absolutely
consistent response). When the horse steps forward into a light
cord contact the cod can be shortened and a little more give asked
for.
James Sutherland
Mary Healey
mor...@mindspring.com (Jim or Laura Behning) writes:
>A properly ridden horse will come on the bit on its own. No gadgets needed,
>just the rider's soft hands and an attentive leg.
Some will, some won't. Sometimes a "gadget" or two will help you
explain to the horse what it is you want. A properly ridden horse
with no previous experience will likely come on the bit on its own.
A former racehorse will generally have some quirks and defenses to
work around. Sometimes a former racehorse will have developed
protective behaviors in response to an injury, behaviors that become
habit and persist long after the injury has healed.
My critter came off the track at 3. He has several scars from some
kind of accident. He has a long, weak back and straight stifles.
He's has surgery for stringhalt. All of these factors contribute to
his delusion that going round and on the aids is not possible. I
had to use a combination of correct riding and "gadgets" to *show*
him that he could do it. Which, he was very surprised to learn, he
can.
But I didn't stuff him into a modified chambon, or sidereins, or
drawreins (and I've used them all at one time or another) the second
week of "serious" training. I had him vet checked, and worked on
improving his fitness. I gave him every benefit of every doubt.
But he was not reacting from pain, but from the *memory* of pain.
The "proof" came when he finally did go round, it didn't hurt, and
he became much more willing to try that "on the aids" stuff.
Sometimes it *is* the horse.
But, as I said, I didn't get out the bungee cord after one lesson.
A 5 year-old, off the track, in his first year of being a non-racing
horse, should probably be cut a little more slack. It may take
longer, but a little more time spent on the foundations will pay off
in trust, willingness, and heart.
--
Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:
Raise a Fund ("Regis", 10 yo TB); ANZ Sam-I-Am ("Sam", 5 yo ACDx);
ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good ("Noah", 2 yo ACD); kitties from h*ll;
finches; fish; Guinea pigs (a1....@isumvs.iastate.edu)
Jim or Laura Behning
>From: James Sutherland <j.suth...@eng.abdn.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Dressage Training Aid Question
>Date: 3 Jul 1995 10:18:02 GMT
>I have seen a top British dressage rider use elasticated side reins
>when lunging (or longing but not lounging) a young horse (with and
>without a rider on its back). The technique is not ludicrous if
>applied properly. The fact that the bungee rope can stretch is
>important - if the horse sticks its nose out a bit it feels a light
>force back. If it sticks its head out more it feels a stronger
>force. It is important (IMHO) that the cord is long enough that the
>force is not strong and should be flexible enough to let the horse
>stretch fully. The point is not to force it into a false frame but
>to encourage it to come forward into a forgiving contact just as if
>there was a rider holding the reins (only with an absolutely
>consistent response). When the horse steps forward into a light
>cord contact the cod can be shortened and a little more give asked
>for.
>James Sutherland
I have gotten to where I take everything a "top" rider does with a grain of
salt.
Since when are we "asking for give"? The whole point is not to pull the
horse's head in, which is what these gadgets do. It is especially not
necessary with a horse as young as the one in the original post.
A properly ridden horse will come on the bit on its own. No gadgets needed,
just the rider's soft hands and an attentive leg. If there are still problems,
and the horse vets out sound, maybe we need to reexamine our *own* riding
skills(yes, even those so called "top" riders may just have had extremely
talented/compliant (to forceful methods) horses, which simplifies things
immensely in their quest for the top)and not force the *horse*.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Lora L Roa
Really one of the nicest gadgets currently in use. I have used it as a
teaching aide (when appropriate, and as with any "gadget" only long enough
for the horse to understand what I want). It really can work very well
for some horses, and seems to have much fewer side effects than running
reins, as well as engouraging better use of back in a green horse than
"normal" side reins do. It does allow the horse to work long & low
(encourages it even), whereas "normal" side reins keep the green horses
from those all important back muscle stretches. It is also safer (because
of give and pressure in poll as well as bit) than most other auxilliary
reins.
There is nothing odd about the gadget. But since I missed the start of
the thread - I have no idea if its use was appropriate in this situation.
Lora L Roa | Horses, Dogs, Cats, Chickens and Kids
Disclamers, etc... | and one nice guy who laughs at me ....
| of course, so do the kids .....
karen burke
Practical Horseman article "Give your horse a softer mouth" by Leslie
Webb. It really works! I got outstanding results and would recommend it
to anyone.
Karen Burke
On 3 Jul 1995, James Sutherland wrote:
> Snipped from a couple of articles (reply before post):
>
> > IMHO....Find a new instructor! This method is ludicrous! However,
> > the use of these "gadgets" is unfortunatly practiced by many so called
> > "dressage" riders in this country. If you persue this "training method"
> > you will end up with a false frame and a "set head". You will ultimatly
> > limit the true ability of your horse.
> >
> >>
> > >What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
> > >place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs
> > around
> > >the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
> > >correct position without any force
> >
>
Betsy Hale
In a previous article, ms...@msg.ti.com (Bonney) says:
>I am schooling my young TB mare (5 yrs going on 2) in dressage and have
>really just started to see some improvements in getting her to go 'on the
>bit' consistantly. We recently took our second lesson from a very
>accomplished instructor who tried a schooling aide that I had never seen
>or heard of before. I am interested in any comments/experiences from the
>group...
>
>What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>correct position without any force - almost but not quite like the
>principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare tighten
>against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
>letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
>didn't happen either).
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Bonney
>
>(Schooling her first baby and enjoying every minute except the ones on
>the ground)
>
>
>
>
>
>Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Dressage Training Aid Question
Reply-To: ap...@lafn.org (Betsy Hale)
References: <3ssgi3$1...@mksrv1.dseg.ti.com>
Organization: The Los Angeles Free-Net
In a previous article, ms...@msg.ti.com (Bonney) says:
>I am schooling my young TB mare (5 yrs going on 2) in dressage and have
>really just started to see some improvements in getting her to go 'on the
>bit' consistantly. We recently took our second lesson from a very
>accomplished instructor who tried a schooling aide that I had never seen
>or heard of before. I am interested in any comments/experiences from the
>group...
>
>What the instructor did was take a 12 foot bungee (sp?) type cord and
>place it through the bit, over the poll and down between her legs around
>the girth. The purpose was to encourage her to keep her neck in the
>correct position without any force - almost but not quite like the
>principles of the Chambonne (sp?). I never actually felt the mare tighten
>against the aid since it was very loose, and we were cautioned about
>letting her get her head too low and getting caught in the cord (which
>didn't happen either).
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Bonney
>
>(Schooling her first baby and enjoying every minute except the ones on
>the ground)
>
>
>
>
>
You say your mare doesn't get her head too low with the bungee cords,
but it sounds like a bad idea to me. First of all, when teaching a
horse to go "on the bit", one of the exercises I've found helpful
involves encouraging the horse to stretch his neck way down, always
making sure that his nose is in front of his forehead. If you were to
practice this exercise properly, I think the bungee cords would be
in the way. This exercise is called "forward and down" by Erik
Herbermann, who wrote THE DRESSAGE FORMULA, and "showing the horse
the way to the ground" by Museler in RIDING LOGIC. A version of it
has turned up in the new 1995 tests. The idea is to have the horse
seek the contact with the bit, by making it inviting for him, and
rewarding him by giving the reins and encouraging him to stretch.
Apparently a lot of people think it isn't important to prevent
the horse from going with his face behind the vertical, but there
are many warnings against this in the classical literature, because
it quickly becomes a habit which the horse uses to avoid true
engagement. Horses trained using mechanical devices such as
you describe usually develop this bad habit, as well as that of
traveling with the crest higher than the poll. If you are uncertain
how to determine whether the poll is the highest point, take a
photo and draw a straight line intersecting the horse's head between
his ears and parallel to the ground (not necessarily the bottom edge
of the photo. If any part of the horse's neck is higher than
this line, then the poll is not the highest point. (Of course,
when practicing the "forward and down" exercise, the poll is not
supposed to be high.) Now draw a straight line from the horse's
forehead to the ground, using a T-square or even an index card
to make sure this line is perpendicular to the ground. If his
nose doesn't come at least forward to this line, he is behind
the vertical.
Good luck with your horse.
--
BETSY HALE - Performing artist: Actress, Singer, Dancer
Horse trainer: Dressage & Jumping - adhering to classical principles
of lightness, harmony and elegance.
ap...@lafn.org 9420 Reseda Bl #507, Northridge CA 91324