Buckskin tobiano stallion chestnut TB mare - foal colour?
me...@hoopsnake.net
I guaranteed a palomino or buckskin foal (because of the dilute gene)
even if we don't get the tobiano?
Also, the mare is 16.2 hh, the stallion is 14.2. Will the foal likely
fall between these two heights (15hh would be my ideal!)
Thanks very much. This is my first foray away from TB stallions. I'm
very excited!
Grizzly
No, you'd need to use a cremello stallion to be guaranteed a dilute
colored animal. You could ask for a color guarantee from the stallion
owner and that would allow you a re breed if you wound up not getting
the color you want. If the stallion is homozygous tobiano, you should
get pinto markings though.
JC Dill
> Hi, if I use a buckskin tobiano stallion over my chestnut TB mare - am
> I guaranteed a palomino or buckskin foal (because of the dilute gene)
> even if we don't get the tobiano?
No. A buckskin horse has a dilute gene and a non-dilute gene. You have
a 50% chance of getting the dilute and getting a buckskin or palomino.
> Also, the mare is 16.2 hh, the stallion is 14.2. Will the foal likely
> fall between these two heights (15hh would be my ideal!)
You can never tell. It is not normally recommended to breed horses of
different breeds, builds, and heights, you may end up with a horse of
"mixed parts" with odd sized body parts. Sometimes this works, but you
really need to know what you are doing.
Also, you should never breed your mare unless you would be 100% happy
with a carbon copy of her in the foal. You can't count on the stallion
to improve or fix faults in the mare.
> Thanks very much. This is my first foray away from TB stallions. I'm
> very excited!
Good luck!
jc
cindi
> me...@hoopsnake.net wrote:
> > Hi, if I use a buckskin tobiano stallion over my chestnut TB mare - am
> > I guaranteed a palomino or buckskin foal (because of the dilute gene)
> > even if we don't get the tobiano?
>
> No. A buckskin horse has a dilute gene and a non-dilute gene. You have
> a 50% chance of getting the dilute and getting a buckskin or palomino.
Well, to complicate matters, he'll only get a palomino if:
- the stallion passes on his cream allele
- the stallion does not pass on his black allele (which might be
impossible if he's homozygous for black)
He'll only get a buckskin if:
- the stallion passes on his cream allele
- the stallion passes on his black allele
- AND the stallion passes on his bay allele. If he gets the above 2
things but no bay, he'll have a smokey black.
:-)
To the OP, do you know the status of the stallion's extension locus
and agouti locus? A lot of breeders who have colored stallions will
have had all the color genetic tests done so they can pass on as much
info as possible. The extension locus is the gene that controls
whether a horse has any black pigment or if he just has red pigment.
Possible alleles for that gene are black and red. The agouti locus is
the gene that controls the distribution of black, if present.
Possible alleles for that gene are:
- no restriction of black which would allow a horse who has black
pigment to be black all over
- restrict solid black to the points and restrict body black a tiny
bit, which makes a seal brown horse
- restrict black to the points, horse would be called bay
- restrict black even further to the points, lower down and lighter,
which is called a wild-type bay
Since these agouti alleles only affect black pigment, it's impossible
to tell from looking what a chestnut horse might have. They can have
any two of the four, in any combination. So your foal's bay status
might also be controlled from what the mare passes on, even though
she's not bay or black.
Here are examples of the different alleles for agouti:
bay: http://www.allisonacres.org/tarzanrsideapril08.jpg
wild type bay: http://www.allisonacres.org/laurenforrest.JPG
another wild type bay: http://www.allisonacres.org/veevee.JPG
and http://www.allisonacres.org/scarlettoct2402.jpg
seal brown: http://www.allisonacres.org/tannerallyup.JPG
another seal brown, TB folks call him a black: http://www.allisonacres.org/larcenyntended.JPG
the cream allele on a seal brown horse: http://www.allisonacres.org/missuscolonelbar.JPG
no restriction of black: http://www.allisonacres.org/maximus.JPG
Well that was fun! :-)
take care
cindi
newbie
Luckily this mare has produced 2 great fillies to date. And they were
both absolute carbon copies of her - except a little smaller and
without the terrible TB "dorsal fin" wither that she has. They both
matched her for colour, markings, but most of all - temperament. She
and her 2 fillies are calm, responsive and very trainable, without the
"hot" TB temperament generally associated with the breed - and they
were bred to race! So I'm confident that any foal she produces will
have a good temperament. I just wanted to recapture the dreams of my
youth by getting a horse with a bit of colour.
The stallion is not homozygnous unfortunately and I should have
realised that buckskin is a single dilute. Alas, as he has a great
temperament and is a beautiful looking horse. So I guess I have to
weigh that up against the 50% chance of yet another chestnut!
Thanks for the replies.
sjorg...@netpublishing.ca
Aha! let me try this as this is what we took in the first week of our
equine genetics course:
If the stallion is homozygous tobiano, the foal will be tobiano. If
the stallion is heterozygous tobiano, there is a 50% chance that the
foal will be tobiano.
A buckskin is a dilute bay, so the stallion will be heterozygous for
cream dilution; and could be EE or Ee and TOTO or TOto and CCr
A chestnut mare would be ee toto.
So, if the buckskin was homozygous for bay, there is a 50%
probability the foal would be bay, and 50% probability it would be
buckskin.
If the stallion was heterozygous for bay, there is a 1 in 4 chance the
foal would be bay, buckskin, chestnut or palomino.
Whew, no wonder I am having problems with the course!
Sally
If the buckskin was heterozygous for bay the foal would have a 1 in 4
chance of being bay, buckskin, chestnut or palomino
JC Dill
> The stallion is not homozygnous unfortunately and I should have
> realised that buckskin is a single dilute. Alas, as he has a great
> temperament and is a beautiful looking horse. So I guess I have to
> weigh that up against the 50% chance of yet another chestnut!
You can easily eliminate the chances of getting a chestnut by selecting
a stallion without the red-factor (e) gene. In order to be chestnut
(ee) the foal has to get the red-factor gene from both the sire and the
dam. If the sire is EE then the foal will be Ee and can not be chestnut
(or palomino, which is ee plus dilute). Depending on the Aa genes the
foal could be bay, or black, and if the foal gets a dilute gene then
smoky black or buckskin, and depending on the paint genes, possibly
paint as well.
jc
newbie
Wow! Thanks everyone. My high school maths (probabilities) obviously
didn't stick with me - how confusing!
So does this mean that because the stallion is a buckskin tobiano,
he's actually a bay with a dilute gene + the tobiano gene? So I'll
have to ask if they've tested him for the red gene, as I imagine a bay
could carry it.
So are the dilute and the tobiano genes entirely separate? I mean, is
there a 50% chance of getting the dilute gene and a 50% chance of
getting the tobiano gene and a 25% chance of getting both? And if he
passes on the bay rather than the dilute gene (another 50% chance?) -
does that mean a bay foal because bay is dominant over chestnut? My
head is spinning.....
The most important thing, of course, is temperament, but boy a bit of
colour would be nice too, sigh!
Susie
here you go!
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
cindi
>
> So does this mean that because the stallion is a buckskin tobiano,
> he's actually a bay with a dilute gene + the tobiano gene? So I'll
> have to ask if they've tested him for the red gene, as I imagine a bay
> could carry it.
Yes. See below. :-)
>
> So are the dilute and the tobiano genes entirely separate? I mean, is
> there a 50% chance of getting the dilute gene and a 50% chance of
> getting the tobiano gene and a 25% chance of getting both? And if he
> passes on the bay rather than the dilute gene (another 50% chance?) -
Below are the color genes for horses - the main ones; they are always
coming up with new ones, but these are the basics. EVERY horse has
every gene - a gene is just a location in the DNA for instructions.
Every horse has every location - it's the instructions at each
particular location that determine color. You can think of it like a
filing cabinet with folders for A to Z. Everybody has all 26 folders
but they can have different papers in the folders. But of course they
only have 2 papers total in each folder, one from mom, one from dad.
Sometimes there are only two possibilities to have, and they can have
them in any combination - like if the possibilities are Yes and No
they can have either one Yes and one No or two Yes's or two No's. But
sometimes there are more than two possibilities total, but any
individual horse can still only have 2, one from mom, one from dad.
If the two they have are the same, that gene is said to be
homozygous. If they two they have are different, that gene is
heterozygous. I always crack up when I see a stallion or broodmare
advertised as homozygous with no explanation as to what gene they are
talking about. Because a chestnut solid horse is the most homozygous
there is – homozygous for all or almost all the color genes! Yet it’s
the least desirable for a color breeding program…. Anyway, here are
the genes:
extension: base color, comes in two varieties (alleles): red and
black. Alleles control production of a protein that has some
function. Well, some alleles code for no protein or for a protein
that does nothing. In the case of extension, red codes for red
pigment and black for black. If a horse has a red from mom and a red
from dad, he'll be red. But this is just the base coat! All the other
color genes can act on top of the base, as you'll see below. Some
don't act on red pigment, so even if they are there, you won't see
their effects on a black horse - and vice versa. A horse with one red
and one black allele will be black-based, but it's not so much that
black is "dominant" (I see you mentioning dominance below.) What
happens is that the red allele still produces red pigment, and the
black allele produces black, and black being darker than red just
blots it out. Dominance was a bad way to describe genetics - both
alleles do their thing, it's not like the "dominant" black allele
shuts down the "recessive" red allele. They are both working...
agouti: otherwise known as bay, comes in four alleles as described in
my previous post. This gene functions to restrict black pigment, IF
there is any black pigment. If there is not, the horse will still
have two alleles for the agouti gene, but they won't be doing anything
obvious to the coat color.
gray: comes in "yes" or "no" alleles. Causes a gradual depigmentation
of the hair, all of it, no matter the color. It is thought that
horses with two "yes's" will go gray faster than those with one "yes"
and one "no."
cream: two alleles, either cream or not-cream. Or yes and no, however
you want to think of it. Although for cream, it’s more of a Do Some
and Do Some More instead of yes/no. Cream dilutes mostly the red
pigment. If a horse has one yes and one no, he will be what's called
a single dilute: buckskin, palomino, smokey black, depending on the
other alleles for the other color genes that he has. For horses who
have two cream alleles, they are double dilutes, so there are two
alleles working to produce whatever protein causes the dilution of the
pigment. These horses are called cremello (two cream alleles on
chestnut) or perlino (two cream alleles on bay) or smokey cream (two
cream alleles on black.) In a double dose the cream alleles can
dilute black pigment also such as the points on a perlino and the
whole body on a smokey cream, but still not as much as red pigment,
which is why you can tell from the color of the points a perlino from
a cremello.
silver: a dilute gene that dilutes black pigment. Here's an example:
http://allisonacres.org/tagalong.JPG He is a silver bay: his body
color is not changed but his points that "should have been" black have
been diluted by the silver allele.
dun: another dilution gene, comes in dun or not dun, or yes/no, just
like cream and silver. However, dun is different in that it looks the
same whether the horse has one dun allele or two. It also includes
the primative markings like dorsal strip, leg barring, shoulder
shadowing.
champagne: another dilution, dilutes coat color as well as skin/eye
color.
tobiano: comes in Yes or No alleles. All four of the pinto patterns
involve genes that have alleles that cause white overtop whatever
colors are already there, so to speak. Tobiano wants to put socks on
first, and then it moves up from there, often crossing the topline.
frame overo: comes in Yes or No also. Wants to put white on the
body. Frame is interesting in that it is lethal when present in the
Yes/Yes state.
sabino: they used to think sabino was a pattern controlled by several
genes. I don’t know if they still think that; I think I read they
sequenced (“found”) the gene(s) and I think it was two, but I’m not
sure. Anyway, sabino wants to put some white on the face,
particularly the chin or lower lip, and from there it can get more
expansive and can also be roany. Causes the big blazes.
splash: another Yes or No. Splash likes to put white in the “snip”
area, between the nostrils.
roan: Yes or No. Some people think roan is lethal in its homozygous
for Yes state, the Yes/Yes. But some foundation quarter horse folks
with big breeding programs centered on their roan breeding stock don’t
think it is. I haven’t read anything recent.
Rabicano: causes roaning at the tail head, on any color. I think it’s
a Yes/No also but it might be a Some and Some More type.
Appaloosa spotting: This is very general but basically there is a gene
that is an on/off sort of thing, and then there are the spotting
alleles - blanket, leopard, snowflake, varnish roan, I think those are
the possibilities. You can read more about it if you want to Google.
The important thing to remember is somebody could breed the buckskin
tobiano stallion you're talking about to a varnish roan leopard
spotted appy and the foal could have the cream dilution and the pinto
pattern of tobiano and the appy pattern of varnish roan and leopard...
They can all exist in the same individual. All horses who are not
appaloosas have Off and None as their alleles for the appy-related
genes. It's not that, say, quarter horses don't have the appy genes -
they do. They are just not doing anything appy-ish. ;-)
Well those are the main ones. So you can have a horse who’s got a yes
for every single one of the color genes – they are all there in all
horses. It’s just the alleles that vary.
> does that mean a bay foal because bay is dominant over chestnut? My
> head is spinning.....
Bay is not “dominant” over chestnut. The agouti gene, also called the
bay gene, has four possible alleles:
- don’t do anything
- restrict black pigment a tiny bit (makes seal)
- restrict black pigment a bit more (makes bay)
- restrict black pigment a lot (makes wild type bay)
On a horse with no black pigment, otherwise known as a chestnut or at
least a chestnut based horse (because he could have cream and tobiano
and dun and roan and whatever else also), none of those agouti alleles
are going to have an effect. They only work on black, and he has no
black.
The thing to consider first is always base coat. If your black based
parent (in your case, the buckskin tobiano stallion) is homozygous for
black, that means he has two black alleles and will only pass on
black. Since all a horse needs is one black allele to be black-based
instead of red, then all his foals will be black based. They still
might be tobianos or greys or cream dilutes or roans or anything else
that can be thrown into the mix by him or his mares. IF he’s
homozygous for black, you still won’t know if it’ll be a black baby or
a bay one, unless you know his agouti status. If he has one “bay of
some type” allele and one “do nothing allele” and he throws the “do
nothing” allele, the baby will remain black-based, with no
restriction. Cream dilute breeders don’t like this situation because
a black-based foal with one cream allele is a smokey black which
doesn’t look any different from any other black horse. Cream dilute
stallions, whether they are single dilutes or double, are more
interesting for breeding purposes if they are homozygous for bay.
That way if the foal happens to be black instead of chestnut, and if
the cream allele is passed on also in the case of a single dilute
stallion, then you know for sure it’s going to be buckskin and not
smokey black. (This is assuming you, like everybody else I’ve ever
talked to, would prefer a buckskin foal to a black one.)
How to know if they are homozygous for bay? Genetic testing is the
best way although you can sometimes tell a lot from produce
records.
cindi
JC Dill
> So does this mean that because the stallion is a buckskin tobiano,
> he's actually a bay with a dilute gene + the tobiano gene?
Yes, yes, yes. :-)
> So I'll
> have to ask if they've tested him for the red gene, as I imagine a bay
> could carry it.
Yes, many bays carry a red gene (e gene). The red gene is pretty
common, as is the agouti gene, which is why there are more bays than
chestnuts, and more chestnuts than blacks.
> So are the dilute and the tobiano genes entirely separate?
Yes. Two completely different gene sets.
> I mean, is
> there a 50% chance of getting the dilute gene and a 50% chance of
> getting the tobiano gene and a 25% chance of getting both?
Yes.
> And if he
> passes on the bay rather than the dilute gene (another 50% chance?) -
> does that mean a bay foal because bay is dominant over chestnut? My
> head is spinning.....
There is no "bay gene". Bay is caused by the Agouti gene affecting the
black gene. It's complicated.
A is Agouti
a is non-agouti
E is black
e is chestnut
aaee, Aaee, AAee are chestnut
"ee" represents no black, just red
all combinations of the agouti gene (aa, Aa, AA) have no effect on red
aaEe, aaEE are black
"aa" represents black body (black, if any, not restricted to the points)
E represents black color on the horse
AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, AAEe are bay
"A" represents black restricted to points (bay)
"E" represents black color on the horse
The "A" gene is more common than the "a" gene. Horses with at least one
"A" are the most common, and if they have an "E" gene (also common) they
are bay.
When you have "ee" the horse is chestnut no matter what combination of
A/a, because the "A" gene doesn't act on the "e", only the "E".
Clear as mud, right?
> The most important thing, of course, is temperament,
Good girl! :-)
> but boy a bit of
> colour would be nice too, sigh!
A good horse is never a bad color, but a good color is always a nice
bonus.
newbie
Thanks for all the in depth responses. That colour calculator is great
- lots of fun! I haven't had a reply from the breeder yet, but I
checked back through his pedigree: He's by a buckskin out of a bay
tobiano, his paternal grandsire was a buckskin, grand dam was a sorrel
(doh!) and maternal grandsire was a red roan overo and grandam was a
bay tobiano. So I reckon he probably carries the red allele (hope I'm
using the right word!) Which gives me the following probability
according to the calculator:
18.75% - Palomino Tobiano
18.75% - Chestnut Tobiano
16.41% - Buckskin Tobiano
16.41% - Bay Tobiano
6.25% - Palomino
6.25% - Chestnut
5.47% - Buckskin
5.47% - Bay
2.34% - Smoky Black Tobiano
2.34% - Black Tobiano
0.78% - Smoky Black
0.78% - Black
newbie
> a black-based foal with one cream allele is a smokey black which
> doesn’t look any different from any other black horse.
Is that what they call grullo? I have a solid paint gelding black/
brown who almost looks buckskin on his barrell at the moment and his
previous owner said he was grullo (sp?)
Liisa Sarakontu
27ea26...@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
Nope. Grulla/grullo is black + dun gene (either one or two copies of it),
not black + one copy of cream gene.
black + dun = grulla
bay + dun = dun
chestnut + dun = red dun
black + 1 cream gene = smoky black
bay + 1 cream gene = buckskin
chestnut + 1 cream gene = palomino
black + double dose of cream = smoky cream
bay + double dose of cream = perlino
chestnut + + double dose of cream = cremello.
Darkest grullas and palest smoky blacks might look quite similar in some
cases, just like it is sometimes quite hard to tell untypical duns apart
from buckskins, if you have just low quality photos.
Liisa
Sue Leopold
> > The most important thing, of course, is temperament,
>
> Good girl! :-)
And of course, ability in the discipline you prefer.
>
> > but boy a bit of
> > colour would be nice too, sigh!
>
> A good horse is never a bad color, but a good color is always a nice
> bonus.
I am on record as loving plain bays with minimal white.
In my heart, I seriously love grey horses - I think they
look smashing - but man, they are a lot of work.
Plain bays are easy. :-) They shine up great with good
grooming and they don't show dust very much.
My very, very favorite color is a classic seal bay. But they
show every speck of dust.
Plain bay rules!
JC Dill
> On Feb 13, 6:43 pm, JC Dill <jcdill.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A is Agouti
>> a is non-agouti
>> E is black
>> e is chestnut
>>
>> aaee, Aaee, AAee are chestnut
>> "ee" represents no black, just red
>> all combinations of the agouti gene (aa, Aa, AA) have no effect on red
>>
>> aaEe, aaEE are black
>> "aa" represents black body (black, if any, not restricted to the points)
>> E represents black color on the horse
>>
>> AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, AAEe are bay
>> "A" represents black restricted to points (bay)
>> "E" represents black color on the horse
> Thanks for all the in depth responses. That colour calculator is great
> - lots of fun! I haven't had a reply from the breeder yet, but I
> checked back through his pedigree: He's by a buckskin out of a bay
> tobiano, his paternal grandsire was a buckskin, grand dam was a sorrel
> (doh!) and maternal grandsire was a red roan overo and grandam was a
> bay tobiano. So I reckon he probably carries the red allele (hope I'm
> using the right word!) Which gives me the following probability
> according to the calculator:
Which chestnut alleles did you enter for your mare? You can't
accurately calculate outcomes unless you know if she's aaee, Aaee, AAee.
Further, you can't calculate outcomes unless you know if the stallion
is AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, or AAEe. Because both of his parents were
bay/buckskin he might not have a chestnut gene.
If he has thrown palomino or chestnut foals, then he must have a
chestnut gene (e) because palomino/chestnut foals are aaee, Aaee, or
AAee and must have received 1 e from the sire.
Also, if your mare is aaee, and the sire is AaEE, you have a 50% chance
of a black or smoky black foal (aaEe) and 50% chance of a bay foal
(AaEe). If your mare is AAee, and the sire is AA (any combination of
e/E), you have a zero chance of a black foal.
jc
newbie
Spoke to the stud today and the stallion doesn't carry the red allele.
He has only thrown buckskins and buckskin paints + 1 bay (brown?)
paint to date. (Only has 2 crops on the ground 20+ offspring).
Don't know about the mare, but she has thrown 3 for 3 chestnut fillies
(sire of 1 was also chestnut, sire of 2 and 3 was a bay, but with
white socks and a stripe) so I'm guessing she carries a lot of red!
But I thought that if the sire carries no red then there is no chance
of another chestnut.
I'd be more than happy with a bay (my best ever horse was a very plain
bay with black points - dreadful head, but what a horse!) But would
prefer a buckskin tobiano ... if wishes were horses...;-)
Eileen Morgan
*Sire is a chestnut with a wide blaze and one high stocking.
Sire's sire is chestnut, Sire's Dam is grey (no idea what's under there)
Sire's Grandam on Dam's side is Chestnut, Grandsire is grey (of course)
Sire's Granddam on Sire's side is chestnut, Sire's Grandsire on sire's
side is unknown
So that's what is behind daddy's chestnut color as far as I know.
On Dancer's side, it's a little less clear. She's a plain bay, no white.
Sire, Hush Hush Flash, I could not find a color for.
Dam is dark bay/brown; dam's sire and dam's dam are both bays.
Sire's sire is chestnut, sire's dam is bay.
At the next generation we have one chestnut, one unknown, and six bays,
FWIW.
Four chestnuts, eleven bays, and one unknown at the next generation.
So I am thinking if I did the little calculator thingie right that I
have about a 58% chance of bay, 33% chestnut and then 8% black (which
surprised me--I thought that would be a zero % chance. I thought my only
options would be chestnut or bay, bay much more likely).
Am I right, or is there something that would change things, like the
possibility Dancer has a chestnut gene lurking? I think both her fillies
are bay, BTW. One bay stallion and one spotted Knabstrupper (that foal
has a nice spotty blanket).
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
JC Dill
> On Feb 14, 1:04 pm, JC Dill <jcdill.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> newbie wrote:
>>> On Feb 13, 6:43 pm, JC Dill <jcdill.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> A is Agouti
>>>> a is non-agouti
>>>> E is black
>>>> e is chestnut
>>>> aaee, Aaee, AAee are chestnut
>>>> "ee" represents no black, just red
>>>> all combinations of the agouti gene (aa, Aa, AA) have no effect on red
>>>> aaEe, aaEE are black
>>>> "aa" represents black body (black, if any, not restricted to the points)
>>>> E represents black color on the horse
>>>> AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, AAEe are bay
>> If he has thrown palomino or chestnut foals, then he must have a
>> chestnut gene (e) because palomino/chestnut foals are aaee, Aaee, or
>> AAee and must have received 1 e from the sire.
>>
>> Also, if your mare is aaee, and the sire is AaEE, you have a 50% chance
>> of a black or smoky black foal (aaEe) and 50% chance of a bay foal
>> (AaEe). If your mare is AAee, and the sire is AA (any combination of
>> e/E), you have a zero chance of a black foal.
>>
>> jc
>
> Spoke to the stud today and the stallion doesn't carry the red allele.
> He has only thrown buckskins and buckskin paints + 1 bay (brown?)
> paint to date. (Only has 2 crops on the ground 20+ offspring).
>
> Don't know about the mare, but she has thrown 3 for 3 chestnut fillies
> (sire of 1 was also chestnut, sire of 2 and 3 was a bay, but with
> white socks and a stripe) so I'm guessing she carries a lot of red!
> But I thought that if the sire carries no red then there is no chance
> of another chestnut.
Correct.
You can disregard the filly by the chestnut stallion, chestnut bred to
chestnut always produces chestnut - except in rare cases where a
"chestnut colored" silver dapple bay (really is a bay but looks like a
chestnut due to the influence of the silver dapple gene) is in the mix.
Your mare had 2 chestnut fillies by bay sires.
>>>> aaee, Aaee, AAee are chestnut
>>>> AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, AAEe are bay
Do the math for each of these pairings to see what the odds are for a
chestnut foal. As you can see, the sire MUST be AaEe or AAEe, to
provide an e for the foal so you can rule out (for that prior sire) teh
AAEE and AaEE genes). If the sire is AaEe and the mare is Aaee, you
have a 50% chance the foal gets ee, and a 75% chance that it also gets
an A (from one parent or the other) for a 37.5% chance that it would be
bay. All other results would be chestnut or black because the foal
either doesn't get the E (no black for the A to act on) or doesn't get
an A (no agouti). Etc.
> I'd be more than happy with a bay (my best ever horse was a very plain
> bay with black points - dreadful head, but what a horse!) But would
> prefer a buckskin tobiano ... if wishes were horses...;-)
Buckskin Tobiano is 100% likely to occur if you bred an AAEE bay with an
AAEE perlino homozygous tobiano. The resulting foal must be bay (AAEE)
must be buckskin (one cr gene from the perlino), must be tobiano (one
tobiano gene from the homozygous tobiano).
Since your mare is ee, if you bred her to an AAEE bay you will always
get bay (as the base color, modified by cr etc depending on what other
genes are in the mix). If you breed her to AaEE you will get bay 1/2
the time and (depending on if your mare has aa, Aa or AA) you might also
get black.
jc
cindi
> Spoke to the stud today and the stallion doesn't carry the > red allele.
> He has only thrown buckskins and buckskin paints + 1
> bay (brown?)
> paint to date. (Only has 2 crops on the ground 20+
> offspring).
So do they know from testing that he has no red or are they just
guessing from his foals? Because without knowing the colors of the
mares it's hard to say for sure... If ALL 20 mares were chestnut and
all foals were black based then that would be almost a sure thing, but
I'm betting not all mares were chestnut.
>
> Don't know about the mare, but she has thrown 3 for 3
> chestnut fillies
> (sire of 1 was also chestnut, sire of 2 and 3 was a bay, > but with
> white socks and a stripe) so I'm guessing she carries a > lot of red!
Well, there isn't any such thing really as "a lot" of red. Any
chestnut horse, any red-based horse, has two red alleles at the
extension locus. For that locus, that is all they can throw: red.
> But I thought that if the sire carries no red then there is > no chance
> of another chestnut.
That is correct. A chestnut horse got a red allele from mom and a red
allele from dad.
cindi
cindi
> So that's what is behind daddy's chestnut color as far as > I know.
For what it's worth, you don't really need to know the colors behind a
chestnut. A chestnut has two red alleles, and that's it. Whatever
previous generations have doesn't matter for most of the other
things. The only thing you don't know from the fact that he's
chestnut is whether or not he has any bay alleles. They only "show"
on black based horses and can be carried for generations by
chestnuts.
>
> On Dancer's side, it's a little less clear. She's a plain bay, no white.
> Sire, Hush Hush Flash, I could not find a color for.
> Dam is dark bay/brown; dam's sire and dam's dam are both bays.
> Sire's sire is chestnut, sire's dam is bay.
So she could be heterozygous or homozygous for black and bay.
> So I am thinking if I did the little calculator thingie right that I
> have about a 58% chance of bay, 33% chestnut and then 8% black (which
> surprised me--I thought that would be a zero % chance. I thought my only
> options would be chestnut or bay, bay much more likely).
Calculations aren't accurate unless you know the status of the agouti
(bay) genes on both parents. Your mare you know has at least one bay
allele - she might have two, and thus only be able to pass on a bay
allele (which on a black based horse would make the horse bay; on a
red based horse will do nothing.) But even if she only has one, the
sire might have one or two. But if your mare only has one and your
sire has one or none, there is a chance you'll get black.
So in other words *if* Dancer throws a black allele (and maybe that's
all she can throw), you will have zero chance for black if either
Dancer or the stud are homozygous for bay. The calculator can't take
that sort of thing into consideration.
Also IF Dancer is homozygous for black, you'll have zero chance for
chestnut, another thing the calculator can't predict.
> Am I right, or is there something that would change things, like the
> possibility Dancer has a chestnut gene lurking?
Yeah... If she's heterozygous at her extension locus, that means she
has one black and one red allele and could throw either one.
cindi
Jennifer Meyer-Mahoney
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:TOWdndX3Zd4ZbQvU...@ptd.net...
Daddy can only throw chestnut so Dancer determines what happens. If she has
no chestnut gene then you will get a bay. If she has a chestnut gene then
you have a 50% chance of bay and a 50% chance of chestnut. Black is pretty
rare in TBs and Dancer is bay so unless there is some evidence of black in
daddy's background you can pretty safely assume it will be bay if it gets
the gene for black skin. Chestnut genes can lie hidden for generations so
she may have one. A friend of mine unexpectedly got a chestnut foal out of 2
bay parents neither of whom had a chestnut ancestor for 5 generations back.
She had to go to the Jocky Club and do some research to find chestnut
ancestors on both sides and they DNA tested the foal back when that was not
the norm because they could not believe that this cross produced a chestnut
foal.
Jennifer
Eileen Morgan
> Daddy can only throw chestnut so Dancer determines what happens.
I figured, since I know chestnut is recessive. I was just trying to be
complete. :-)
>If she has no chestnut gene then you will get a bay. If she has a chestnut gene then
> you have a 50% chance of bay and a 50% chance of chestnut. Black is pretty
> rare in TBs and Dancer is bay so unless there is some evidence of black in
> daddy's background you can pretty safely assume it will be bay if it gets
> the gene for black skin.
I did not think there was any chance at all for black until the
calculator thingie said so. I was surprised by any possibility at all
between a bay and a chestnut. Her sire's parents were a chestnut
stallion and the unknown color of two bays, which I would think would be
bay, esp. given that all four Gr grandparents on that side were bay.
There were chestnuts here and there on both sides of her family tree,
however, from grandparents back, so I figured there was a small chance
of chestbut.
I figured I'd probably get bay but I did not really care about the paint
job. A star or sock would be a nice change around here, though. :-)
I am queen of the plain horses.
Doc: blood bay, micro star and tiny heel patch
Belles: plain blood bay
Dancer: plain very dark bay/seal brown
Moonlight and Rain both have white on the face and some socks but they
are grey so it's all pointless anyhow. They are bay under the grey.
Dolly is funky, being a buckskin appy, but no white markings.
And Carl always likes color. Baby, is a very white and black paint; Spot
was the loudest leopard appy around.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
JC Dill
> I did not think there was any chance at all for black until the
> calculator thingie said so. I was surprised by any possibility at all
> between a bay and a chestnut.
aaee, Aaee, AAee are chestnut
"ee" represents no black, just red
all combinations of the agouti gene (aa, Aa, AA) have no effect on red
aaEe, aaEE are black
"aa" represents black body (a = black not restricted to the points)
E represents black color on the horse
AaEE, AAEE, AaEe, AAEe are bay
A (agouti) acting on E (black on horse) to restrict black to the points
If the sire is aaee, and dancer is AaEe, then there's a 50% chance the
foal is aa (possible black, if there's an E) and 50% chance the foal ie
Ee (possible black, if no A=agouti), so a 25% chance of a black foal
from the aaee X AaEe cross.
However, the "a" gene is uncommon in TBs which is why there are so few
true-black TBs but a lot of bays (A gene acting on E gene). So she's
probably either AAEE or AAEe, and you have no chance of black.
jc
JC Dill
> Daddy can only throw chestnut so Dancer determines what happens.
Not exactly. He could be AAee, or Aaee, or aaee. The A/a's affect the
likelyhood of a black vs bay.
> If she has
> no chestnut gene then you will get a bay. If she has a chestnut gene then
> you have a 50% chance of bay and a 50% chance of chestnut. Black is pretty
> rare in TBs
I believe what is rare in TBs is the "a" gene (non-agouti). The E gene
(black) is common which is why there are so many bays (AxEx).
> and Dancer is bay so unless there is some evidence of black in
> daddy's background you can pretty safely assume it will be bay if it gets
> the gene for black skin. Chestnut genes can lie hidden for generations so
> she may have one. A friend of mine unexpectedly got a chestnut foal out of 2
> bay parents neither of whom had a chestnut ancestor for 5 generations back.
> She had to go to the Jocky Club and do some research to find chestnut
> ancestors on both sides and they DNA tested the foal back when that was not
> the norm because they could not believe that this cross produced a chestnut
> foal.
Chestnuts also occur occasionally in Friesians and from black/black
percheron crosses. Khai (dark bay with no white marks) had 3 chestnut
foals (with chrome) from a dark bay with minimal white.
jc
Jill
>
> I figured I'd probably get bay but I did not really care about the
> paint job. A star or sock would be a nice change around here, though.
> :-)
A bright chestnut boy with all white socks would dress things up a bit
around the Mare's Nest
<g>
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Susie
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
this link explains everything and does the *math* for all color
variations of horses being bred
Susie
> >
> Chestnuts also occur occasionally in Friesians and from black/black
> percheron crosses. Khai (dark bay with no white marks) had 3 chestnut
> foals (with chrome) from a dark bay with minimal white.
>
> jc
Chestnut can occur in friesians if the black mare and black sire
have recessive red genes- ( 25%) and it is going to be rarer in the
future, as they have succeeded in almost breeding this gene out and
only 2 stallions who are approved remain alive who carry the gene- Abe
and Jillis. Very small gene pool.
All the other stallions are deceased, like Wicher and Laas.
Fire Magic carrys the gene and he is RED so he is homozygus for red,
but his sperm sucks for shipping.
I know
after breeding him 3 x in shipments to my friesian mare and spending
thousands he was unsuccessful; and had the barest minimum quality in
motility and mobility in his shipments.
He is lovely but not easy to handle when mares are around. Quite the
un-gentleman............
Susie