Why Gai Seance was gelded?
elias procopio duarte jr.
Hi Arabian Horse fans,
The other day I saw an ad at the January issue of _The Arabian Horse
Times_ of the gorgeous 1987 US National Reserve Champion
Stallion Gai Seance being sold as a gelding. (Maybe as a second-class
gelding, considering other gelding-to-sell ads in the magazine.)
In the same issue of the magazine there are photos of his
gorgeous son, 199? US National Futurity Champion Stallion
Autumn Seance who is being activelly shown.
Can anyone tell me why such a great horse/stud was gelded?
Thanks,
Jennifer Sullivan
In a previous article, el...@dais.is.tohoku.ac.jp (elias procopio duarte jr.) says:
>
>Hi Arabian Horse fans,
>
>
>The other day I saw an ad at the January issue of _The Arabian Horse
>Times_ of the gorgeous 1987 US National Reserve Champion
>Stallion Gai Seance being sold as a gelding. (Maybe as a second-class
>gelding, considering other gelding-to-sell ads in the magazine.)
>
>Can anyone tell me why such a great horse/stud was gelded?
>
Apparently the poor fool lunged at his handler IN PUBLIC (from what I hear,
I woul dhave too) and depending on wherther you think he was vicious
or just mishandled, he was gelded either because his owners were
too pure to make money breeding horses with unsound dispositions,
OR, because they didn't want word to get around that they were actually
standing a stallion at stud who had attacked someone in public, and saving
face by having him gelded instead of fixing the cause.
Guess which scenario I'm leaning towards (based only on what I have heard
about the
incident, I was not there).
--
JJ and Woody (TB from Heck!) @ jjsu...@host0.colby.edu
Unicorns don't exist, and roses have thorns.
"Never tell me the odds!" --Han Solo
Laurie Beckstead
In a previous article, el...@dais.is.tohoku.ac.jp (elias procopio duarte jr.) says:
>
>Hi Arabian Horse fans,
>
>
>The other day I saw an ad at the January issue of _The Arabian Horse
>Times_ of the gorgeous 1987 US National Reserve Champion
>Stallion Gai Seance being sold as a gelding. (Maybe as a second-class
>gelding, considering other gelding-to-sell ads in the magazine.)
>
>In the same issue of the magazine there are photos of his
>gorgeous son, 199? US National Futurity Champion Stallion
>Autumn Seance who is being activelly shown.
>
>Can anyone tell me why such a great horse/stud was gelded?
>
Also can anyone shed light on the rumour that Cognac was also gelded. I'm
sure I saw his name removed from the Sweeps list last spring. Huh? I
thought he was throwing some of the best English horses out there.
Just curious.
--
Laurie & the Boyz
(Monte, Freckles and Thunder)
*********************************
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
DOLANSKI, CYNTHIA
>From: an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Laurie Beckstead)
>Subject: Re: Why Gai Seance was gelded?
>Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:17:40 GMT
I have been told that Cognac became sterile 2 years ago. They may have gelded
him due to this or the rumor mill might be a little off the mark.
Cynthia at MSU CVM awaiting Obsession's first foal in June
Sue Bishop
>
>
> In a previous article, el...@dais.is.tohoku.ac.jp (elias procopio duarte jr.) says:
>
>>
>>Hi Arabian Horse fans,
>>
>>
>>The other day I saw an ad at the January issue of _The Arabian Horse
>>Times_ of the gorgeous 1987 US National Reserve Champion
>>Stallion Gai Seance being sold as a gelding. (Maybe as a second-class
>>gelding, considering other gelding-to-sell ads in the magazine.)
>>
>>In the same issue of the magazine there are photos of his
>>gorgeous son, 199? US National Futurity Champion Stallion
>>Autumn Seance who is being activelly shown.
>>
>>Can anyone tell me why such a great horse/stud was gelded?
>>
>
>
> Also can anyone shed light on the rumour that Cognac was also gelded. I'm
> sure I saw his name removed from the Sweeps list last spring. Huh? I
> thought he was throwing some of the best English horses out there.
>
One thing that has not been considered, perhaps these stallions produced
a CIDS foal. If they did, that would prove they were a carrier and any
ethical owner would geld them immediately.
Isn't Cognac a Russian stallion? I forget if he's Russian or Polish.
One large stable in New Mexico had a big name stallion who turned out
to be a CIDS carrier a few years ago. I just can't remember the name
of the horse.
Sue in Ohio
Lynn Tucker
ithout warning). The owners decided to geld him because they did not know the source of the quirky behavior, was it genetic or induced from handling? The article praised the owners for making this decision in the interest of the breed rather than in their own interest (horse was worth much more to them as a breeding stallion than as a gelding). I never heard if gelding him eliminated the behavior.
Please note that I am trying to remember this article from some time ago and may be incorrect about some of the detail, but I am
pretty sure it was in reference to Gai Seance.
.... Lynn
Jennifer Sullivan
In a previous article, ltu...@mc4adm.uwaterloo.ca (Lynn Tucker) says:
>I read an article one time about Gai Seance being gelded. Seems he was unpredictable and had attacked the trainer. The owners changed trainers.The new trainer could find no problem with the horse and suggested he try showing the horse again. Everything went fine until the crowd began applauding, then the horse attacked the trainer and knocked him to the ground. The horse then immediately returned to his normal docile self. This is just a short version of the story (incidents like this had happened be
>ithout warning). The owners decided to geld him because they did not know the source of the quirky behavior, was it genetic or induced from handling? The article praised the owners for making this decision in the interest of the breed rather than in their own interest (horse was worth much more to them as a breeding stallion than as a gelding). I never heard if gelding him eliminated the behavior.
>Please note that I am trying to remember this article from some time ago and may be incorrect about some of the detail, but I am
>pretty sure it was in reference to Gai Seance.
>.... Lynn
>
yes, you have the right article! Horse went nuts at applause and attacked
his trainer. Now, does anyone know of any kind of genetic defect that
translates sound into viciousness? I don't! Sounds like the poor
critter went through some 'unpleasant associations' with loud noise and his
handler's actions at some time in his life, personally. I have heard of
horses
getting scared when they hear lots of loud noise if they have hot
temperaments, but not of turning just plain vicious (and then going back
to 'all nice' when the trainer hits the ground). (funny that).
Of course it's possible that the owners are just incredibly ignorant about
anything having to do with the actual mental workings of horses--or they
could just be trying to avoid the bad publicity for standing a 'vicious'
stallion... .either way, I think it was reprehensible.
*sighs*
Sue Wong
Most of my friends breed Arabs (I keep QH) and one of them sent
one of her best brood mares to Gai Seance. The baby was very
pretty and very correct but plain nasty. This mare produced
nice, willing babys when breed to other stallions. The Gai
Seance baby was the only nasty baby I've seen at her place.
Of course, my sample size of 1 (count 'em 1) in the 20 or so
Arabs I associate with (3 of these are stallions - 2 of them
breeding stallions - all with much better attitudes than this
Gai Seance baby) can tell you how much value this observation
has ;>). Anyway she kept him until he was 2 and I know he was
never abused or treated different from the other babys, but he
remained untrustworthy and nasty to people and other horses (he
was, of course, gelded). The vets found nothing wrong with him.
He was sold to someone who loved him for his body and not his
mind. For what it's worth (not even the usual $.02)
Sue and the Buckskins
Southlake, Texas, USA.
Mary Healey
am...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jennifer Sullivan) writes:
>[parts deleted] Sounds like the poor
>critter went through some 'unpleasant associations' with loud noise and his
>handler's actions at some time in his life, personally. I have
>heard of horses getting scared when they hear lots of loud noise
Yup. I know one who freaks out at applause (bucking, rearing, and
general mischief). This is *not* an abused horse, just a
high-strung, noise sensitive one. (I suspect that some horses are
more affected by noise than others, just as some dogs are more prone
to "gunshyness" than others.)
>if they have hot temperaments, but not of turning just plain
>vicious (and then going back to 'all nice' when the trainer hits
>the ground). (funny that).
This also depends on a lot of factors. Sure, he might have been
abused. I rode a 3-yr-old App once, and decided I didn't have to
longe him (we'd been out the day before). He walked nice, I asked
him to trot, he went "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" and totally forgot I
was aboard. And very soon I *wasn't* aboard! I landed in front of
him (with him still bucking and wheeeeeing) - I landed, he skidded
to a halt. He looked at me, and I tried to breathe. His ears
twitched (I could just *see* the gears grinding in his little pea
brain "How's she get *there*? The last time I saw her she was ....
OH, GEEZ, I'M IN *BIG* TROUBLE!") And he suddenly remembered an
urgent appointment at the other end of the barn. He went from
maniacal behavior to "sanity" *very* abruptly. It had nothing to do
with abuse (or viciousness, either).
--
Mary and the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:
Raise a Fund ("Regis", 9yo TB)
ANZ Sam-I-Am (4 yo ACDx) & ANZ Noah Doll, CGC (1 yo ACD)
Emma, Gareth, Rhiannon & Sibyl (cats from h*ll)
more finches and fewer fish every day!
pam
In article <1994Apr15.1...@desire.wright.edu>, sbi...@desire.wright.edu (Sue Bishop) writes:
|>Path: suite.com!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!news.intercon.com!news.pipeline.com!malgudi.oar.net!mercury.wright.edu!desire.wright.edu!sbishop
|>From: sbi...@desire.wright.edu (Sue Bishop)
|>Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
|>Subject: Re: Why Gai Seance was gelded?
|>Date: 15 Apr 94 18:10:12 EST
|>References: <2od90h$s...@sakunami.gw.tohoku.ac.jp> <Co96D...@freenet.carleton.ca>
|>Organization: Wright State University
|>Lines: 45
ignorance, but if I don't ask how will I learn?
--
These are only my opinions, feel free to disagree with them.
p...@suite.com Waxahachie, Texas
Whiskey and Dee (breeding stock Paints), Tucker (Labrador Retriever),
Katya and Zerrin (Anatolian Shepherds), Eowyn, T.C., Shadow, Light and
Dark (cats - DSH), Gwaihir (Pionus parrot)
Lisa Bush
BUR...@SYSA.ADM.DUKE.EDU wrote:
[.....]
> My point is that I don't think that all bad behavior is learned,
> but I do agree that most of is created by people.
I work at a small Morgan farm where we presently have two yearling colts.
The one is spunky, but a nice little gentleman. If you're steady and firm
with him, he behaves very well.
The other is a real devil. He tries to bite non-stop. He strikes and
rears...generally every bad behavior he can think of. He doesn't seem
vicious about it, his ears are never back. He's just bad.
His owner and I are getting to the point where we are in constant battles
with him. She (his owner) doesn't seem to have time to train him to lead
quietly. Leading and tying are my main problems, because it's my job to
turn him out and work around him in his stall. I use the chain of the lead
under his chin, which has kept him from running over me, but now he rears,
especially as I'm trying to take off the leadline at the pasture gate.
Does anyone have any recommendations on how to deal with this horse?
Thanks!
Lisa
(a lurker for the past few months)
BUR...@sysa.adm.duke.edu
>his trainer. Now, does anyone know of any kind of genetic defect that
>translates sound into viciousness? I don't! Sounds like the poor
>critter went through some 'unpleasant associations' with loud noise and his
>handler's actions at some time in his life, personally. I have heard of
>horses
>getting scared when they hear lots of loud noise if they have hot
>temperaments, but not of turning just plain vicious (and then going back
>to 'all nice' when the trainer hits the ground). (funny that).
>Of course it's possible that the owners are just incredibly ignorant about
>anything having to do with the actual mental workings of horses--or they
>could just be trying to avoid the bad publicity for standing a 'vicious'
>stallion... .either way, I think it was reprehensible.
all kinds of abuses by trainers and handlers (none of whom worked
for us for long - this significantly reduced the pool of of "name"
handlers). I had an unfortunate accident with a stallion in a
schooling session (equine-L'ers have heard this - sorry) where I
tapped his forearm with a whip and he attacked me. He bit me
badly twice before I could stop him. The behavior was unreasonable
and unexpected (& intollerable). I did find out that his previous
handler abused the horse horribly (BTW this horse became a US
Reserve National Champion) and this explained the behavior. I
spent several months conditioning the horse to accept whips (which
are useful training aids). I suggest that the IAHA and the ASHA
begin the "Singapore Rule" - Anyone found abusing a horse is tied
to a stake and flogged at the evening performance.
However, I DO believe that there are horses who suffer from
the horse equivalent of mental illness - that are unreasonable,
mean, and dangerous. A young lady who worked at my barn had a
young mare (I won't mention the breed because I don't want to
fuel any breed prejudice - I don't believe in it) who behaved
in an absolutely irrational manner. It was dangerous to turn her
out because she would immediately spin and kick. I found this out
the hard way - she caught me in the hand and I very nearly ended
up with permanent nerve damage. No amount of kindness or training
improved her attitude and I finally told the girl that the horse
must leave because she was a proven danger to all living animals
(she even attacked my dog and the geese in our lake!!!)
My point is that I don't think that all bad behavior is learned,
but I do agree that most of is created by people.
Richard Empey
We had a colt on the farm a few years ago that was a wee bit of
a handful (read as the worst stud we ever had on the place).
Carlo, after weaning, and getting over the post weaning blues,
decided that he loved all mares. Started screaming (and I mean
I have never heard a mature breeding stallion scream at mare
(oops should have been mares) in heat the way Carlo did when
one walked past his stall. Geldings didn't interest him at all.
He was miserable to work with most of the time. To take him
out of his stall, you HAD to put a chain on him to control him.
Well we solved his problem quite easily. I guess his was
primarily a case of raging hormones at a very young age, because
we gelded him younger than we have ever gelded a colt on our
farm (he didn't make it to a yearling). Well within a week,
we had the sweetest tempered little gelding. We used him
for a 4H meeting, when we had a local trainer in to demonstrate
the proper way to clip and turn out a horse for Halter and
Showmanship (QH style), and Carlo just stood there with a
cotton lead rope on his halter, and let his ears be clipped
clean, his legs, nose etc., without any restraints (no twitch
required), with about 20 4Her's watching. The trainer couldn't
believe he was only a yearling he was so well behaved. We
didn't regret gelding him, with his attitude, he would have
made a horrible stallion to have around, and wouldn't have
been very useful to anyone, being so agressive. He also spent
alot of time (after his operation) out with the old brood mares
who don't tolerate a lot of nonsense from the youngsters, and
learned some herd manners!
Some horses just can't handle the stress of being stallions,
the life style isn't too interesting between breeding seasons
anyway. Like a friend of mine liked to say, except in exception
al cases, show me a good stallion, and I'll show you a better
gelding.
Sorry this is so long...
Joanne
Russell, Ontario, Canada
--
Martha Cather
>
>Does anyone have any recommendations on how to deal with this horse?
>
>Thanks!
>Lisa
>(a lurker for the past few months)
>
>lisa...@med.umich.edu
Lisa,
For starters, if he's not gelded, do so! If he is, then somebody else
probably has more experience with these things than me!
Martha in NM
Linda B. Merims
in some of those horses it takes the form of viciousness, and
in others (more common) it is a spookiness that is not vicious
but is so sudden, so unpredictable, and so extreme that it is
truly dangerous. The stories are very like human stories: there
are the abused children who turn criminal, but there are also the
children from perfectly normal families, with perfectly normal siblings,
who just turn out "wrong" somehow.
Have you ever seen a horse angry to the point of unreason?
Their eyes sink into their head until all you can see is a
hollow red socket. It is like looking upon a creature
possessed by demons. Scary.
Linda B. Merims
Waltham, MA
l...@avs.com
sbu...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
lots removed
> However, I DO believe that there are horses who suffer from
> the horse equivalent of mental illness - that are unreasonable,
[lots removed]
> My point is that I don't think that all bad behavior is learned,
> but I do agree that most of is created by people.
> Cheryl Wake Forest, NC
I agree that there are horses who are just plain psycho for no apparent reason.
My trainer in De. normally works with horses that have problem temperments or
have been abused and are defensively aggressive. So, she was sent this 3 yr.
old to break, I don't know what breed, and she worked w/ him for several months
to get him to accept weight on his back, ect. and things were going pretty well
for a problem horse. Anyway, one day she went into his stal and he attacked
her. He swund his head into her side throwing her aginst the opposite side of
the stall and tried to trmple her. The woman who pulled my trainer from the
stall(my trainer's leg suffered some pretty severe damage and she was unable to
walk for awhile. She is ok now) got her arm broken in the process. Needless
to say, the horse was shipped off homewards to find a new trainer. He had been
vettedand seen by a chiropractor and no soreness could be detected in his back
or elsewhere.
Most horses, however, exhibit this sort of behavior only after being abused.
The horse I talked about had NOT been abused.
Sam and Really (a reformed problem horse)
sbu...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
> In article <1994042015...@SYSA.ADM.DUKE.EDU>,
> BUR...@SYSA.ADM.DUKE.EDU wrote:
> [.....]
>> My point is that I don't think that all bad behavior is learned,
>> but I do agree that most of is created by people.
>
> The other is a real devil. He tries to bite non-stop. He strikes and
> rears...generally every bad behavior he can think of. He doesn't seem
> vicious about it, his ears are never back. He's just bad.
>
> His owner and I are getting to the point where we are in constant battles
> with him. She (his owner) doesn't seem to have time to train him to lead
> quietly. Leading and tying are my main problems, because it's my job to
> turn him out and work around him in his stall. I use the chain of the lead
> under his chin, which has kept him from running over me, but now he rears,
> especially as I'm trying to take off the leadline at the pasture gate.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations on how to deal with this horse?
>
> Thanks!
> Lisa
> (a lurker for the past few months)
>
> lisa...@med.umich.edu
My horse, was what I guess you would call "bad" when she was young.
She would kick anyone who came wihtin 3 feet of her. Her original owners sold
her b/c they were afraid to try to break her. She is now an extremely well
behaved little mare. She resented the idea that someone else was in charge.
Anyway, you asked about leading. Try putting the chain over his nose.
Also, carry a crop with you at all times. Be very aware of his movements at
all times and watch for te little signs that he gives that he is going to be a
problem. Really always used to get a certain gleam in her eye before she
turned really witchy. Discipline him for the thought. Don't beat the Hell out
of him, just tap him lightly on the chest to remind him you have a crop and you
know that he is thinking and wiggle the chain a little to make him pay
attention to you. Don't shank him for this or you give him a justification for
his actions and all he is looking for is an excuse.
When he does actually rear, as he will probably do until he realizes
that he can't get away with anything, punish him -- shank him, back him up,
yell at him -- and then back off and gve him a chance to be good. Reward good
behavior -- tell him he's handsome, give him a pat.
This is a little harder whe you are letting him loose because you don't
have the lead anymore to punish him with. Put two leads on him. when you
remove the first one he willprobably rear and be a brat because he knows you
can't do anything. Punish him with the other lead. Put the original lead back
on and try removing it again, and again,a dn again, until he realizes that you
are in charge even if you just removed the lead. When he is good, take off
both leads and pat him. Remember always reward good behavior no matter how long
it took you to achieve it.
Dib;t expect miracles, this'll take awhile. Good luck!
-Sam and Really
Truman Prevatt
A neighbor had a 2 and half year old Arabian gelding. She raised this
horse from a colt. He was a sweet horse and he was not abused. The farrier
was at her barn one day and she had all the horses up in their stalls
waiting their turns. The Arab was raising H and generally being a
nuisance. She went in his stall to calm him down. He whirled and kicked
her square in the face. She spent a week in the hospital, two days in
intensive care. She will have two operatins to rebuild her face and one to
rebuild her teeth.
Noone really knows what the horse thought or why he did this.
Truman
Denise R Kim-Kusner
with my whip instead of shanking.I've found with shanking the head
goes up and then the legs go up.Rapping on the legs usually
brings the head down consequently the legs.Don't rap more then
3 times in a row.That's beating.This is an interesting thread.
Am curious as to what other people do when holding a rearing
horse in hand...drk
Debbie Levine
>Really always used to get a certain gleam in her eye before she
>turned really witchy. Discipline him for the thought.
Be careful with this approach. It's OK to discipline for early
disobediences that presage a major disobedience -- e.g. he hangs
back slightly, correct that -- but discipling "for a thought" is
the kind of handling that tends to create mean stallions. You'd
better be *very* sure you've got the mind-reading down pat or else
you will wind up with a horse that doesn't understand why he's
being disciplined. And punishment without understanding tends
to foster agression.
I'd enforce a high level of discipline, yes. Make clear rules about
behavior and enforce them absolutely consistently. No blurring
of the lines. But make sure the lines are fairly drawn and that
rewards are applied as much as possible.
IMHO, of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debbie Levine deb...@ipac.caltech.edu ! \___ _
Los Angeles, CA /__\ ) \
/ \ / \_
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours!" R. Bach
sbu...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
less than for the action. Really tended to be a kicker so I would kinda tap
her lightly with a crop to remind her who was boss. ~rMore like a pat, but
since it was a crop it was a little less friendly. Defianatley make sure that
you are consistant and that the horse knows why s/he is being bad.
Sorry that wasn't clear. Lte nights studying aren't conducive to lucid
postings. Sorry about the typos, Iam suffering from line noise. UGH.
Sam and Really
Skyhorse44
writes:
Gai Seance on two occasions tried to attack his handler. Whether this was
due to bad handling, or bad disposition can be debated. However, Mr.
Daniel J. Gainey, who bred and owned the horse was concerned about the
safety of professional handlers, and also the reputation of Gainey-bred
horses, and therefore gelded him.
The problem was not CID.
CID is a recessive genetic problem with some Arabian horses in which they
lack effective immune systems. A carrier can be identified only by
producing a foal know to have CID.