Mare sexually abused and killed
pro4a...@my-dejanews.com
General) regarding a mare who was sexually assaulted and then dragged to death
in Mississippi was posted on another forum by IDA.
The defendants were released, and the state has no laws against sexual abuse
of animals. Here is a list of each state's law;
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
People certainly can at least take 2 minutes to send the Mississippi state
Attorney General's office a letter as outlined below, and to also let them
know sexual abuse of animals is currently *legal* in that state.
We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
news items regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from their forums,
legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their resources to educate
animal owners about sexual abuse of animals.
Our main web site for more information on this abuse, and how to help
legislation, and how
to draft a bill to include sexual abuse in state animal abuse laws, is located
at;
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
Your hosts,
Mike and Pat
===============================================
>Sender: owner-...@envirolink.org
>Reply-to: sdu...@tulsa.cc.ok.us
>In Defense of Animals sent this in their latest letter, and I don't
>remember seeing it on ar-news. If it's been on already, I am sorry for the
>repeat.
>PLEASE write a letter similar to the following to:
>Mike Moore
>State Attorney General
>P.O. Box 220
>Jackson, MS 39205
>Dear Mr. Moore,
>I recently learned of the tragic case of Buttons, a young mare who was
>sexually molested and dragged to death in Mississippi. This spring,
>Buttons' lifeless body was discovered nearly a mile from her barn. Evidence
>of her struggle was found along the paved road, including deep gouges she
>made as she attempted to remain on her feet.
>Three suspects in this heinous crime were released by the Sheriff's
>Department. The botched investigation of this crime indicates a cover-up
>surrounding Buttons' death.
>We cannot allow an innocent creature's murder to go unsolved. I urge you to
>demand a full inquiry into the circumstances of Buttons' death and to
>prosecute the violent criminals involved to the full extent of the law.
>Sincerely,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
pro4a...@my-dejanews.com
> The defendants were released, and the state has no laws against sexual abuse
> of animals. Here is a list of each state's law;
>
> http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
We received additional details via email regarding this case, and is quoted as
we received it;
========================================================================
This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare, was discovered
nearly a mile from her barn. She had been chained to a vehicle and dragged
to death. Evidence of her struggle, including her hair, skin, blood, and
hooves, was found along the paved road.
In her battle against death, her desperate efforts to stay on her feet left
scraped gouges in the pavement.
From what we have been able to determine, three individuals attempted to
sexually molest Buttons and another mare. We believe that Buttons, in an
effort to protect herself, kicked one of the assailants...likely the reason
she was murdered.
Acquaintances of the suspects report that they bragged about killing
Buttons. In fact, one of the suspects has a juvenile record that includes
killing a dog in a microwave oven.
In Defense of Animals' phone# is (415) 388-9641
====================================================
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
news items regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from their forums,
legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their resources to educate>
animal owners about sexual abuse of animals.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Tom Stovall
[deletia here and there]
>This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
It's not spring. "Young mares" are called "fillies." The use of
"lifeless" and "body" is redundant in this context.
>In her battle against death, her desperate efforts to stay on her feet >left scraped gouges in the pavement...
You seem to have overlooked mentioning whether or not a veterinarian had
determined on necropsy that bestiality had occurred. Without such a
determination - or an eye witness account - is appears your propaganda
engine is fueled mainly by allegation, innuendo and supposition.
>From what we have been able to determine, three individuals attempted >to sexually molest Buttons and another mare...
Please give the means of determination by which you arrived at this
conclusion.
>We believe that Buttons, in an effort to protect herself, kicked one of >the assailants...
Belief is not knowledge. What is the factual basis for this
extrapolation?
>likely the reason she was murdered...
One can't "murder" a horse, the term is correctly applied only to
humans. However, buzzwords like "murder" are often used in so-called
"animal rights" propaganda and are usually indicative of somebody's
agenda that eventually leads to, "Send your tax-deductible contributions
to..."
>Acquaintances of the suspects report that they bragged about killing
>Buttons...
Bearing in mind that the use of passive voice in reportage is often
indicative of an attempt to substitute rumor for substance, wouldn't it
be more accurate to say, "According to hearsay, the suspects are
reported to have bragged about killing the filly."
>In fact, one of the suspects has a juvenile record that includes
>killing a dog in a microwave oven.
How do you know this to be true? In many states juvenile records are
sealed other than in the most extenuating of circumstances.
>We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
>financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or >distributing news items regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from >their forums, legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their >resources to educate animal owners about sexual abuse of animals...
If this is truly your agenda, kindly learn the difference between rumor
and reportage before attempting to post propaganda as news. Please be
aware that claiming you're only posting a "report" somebody else wrote
does not absolve you and yours from any inaccuracies contained within
the "report."
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"I'm a farrier." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."
Tom Stovall
re: "It's not spring. 'Young mares' are called 'fillies. The use of
'lifeless' and 'body is redundant in this context..." -TS
>Spring was close enough for the context in which the report was >made...
It's a small thing, but one's credibility suffers when one can't even
get the season right.
>and as far as "Filly" v/s "young mare" the the average general public >who reads such news reports would far easier understand; "young mare" >than "Filly"...
You didn't post a "news report", you posted propaganda and this is an
equestrian forum frequented by folks who mostly know the difference
between filly and mare.
re: "You seem to have overlooked mentioning whether or not a
veterinarian had determined on necropsy that bestiality had occurred..."
-TS
>Whether it did or not, or was just attempted or not, at this point >doesn't matter a whole lot now that the animal was killed after being >dragged for a mile...
Bullshit. You claim to be trying to thwart bestiality, not the inhumane
treatment of animals.
re: "From what we have been able to determine, three individuals
attempted to sexually molest Buttons and another mare..." -anon
>TS> Please give the means of determination by which you arrived at this
>TS> conclusion.
> Heres the number, call and ask: In Defense of Animals'...
Nope, you posted your claims on this public forum, you can back them up
on this public forum. By the way, it's incumbent on the claimant to
back up their claims, not on the skeptic to demonstrate that the
claimant's claims are utter bullshit.
re: "We believe that Buttons, in an effort to protect herself, kicked
one of the assailants..." -anon
>TS> Belief is not knowledge. What is the factual basis for this
>TS> extrapolation?
>Heres the number...
Sorry Charlie, that dog won't hunt. Your claim was on this forum, your
burden of proof is on this forum.
>We don't know, unless one of the defendants complained of pain in his >leg and had bruises and torn pants, with blood running down his leg.
"We don't know", as literally applied to yourselves, is an extremely
accurate statement.
re: Murder. "One can't "murder" a horse, the term is correctly applied
only to humans. However, buzzwords like "murder" are often used in
so-called "animal rights" propaganda..." -TS
>We agree, but we *did* state we posted the message as we had received >it, without changing the text...
So what? Folks who post bullshit as fact are responsible for posting
bullshit.
>We would have changed that to "killed" if we wanted to be responsible >for editing someone else's press release...
Heaven forfend that you'd edit somebody's obvious propaganda.
re: "Acquaintances of the suspects report that they bragged about
killing Buttons..." -anon
>TS>Bearing in mind that the use of passive voice in reportage is often
>TS>indicative of an attempt to substitute rumor for substance, wouldn't
>TS>it be more accurate to say, "According to hearsay, the suspects are
>TS> reported to have bragged about killing the filly."
>We don't agree, if the acquaintances reported something then they >reported it, and as the news item stated clearly; "Acquaintances of the >suspect report.."
Press releases are not "news items", they are propaganda that's
sometimes taken at face value and repeated as truth by unwitting fools.
Do you folks know anybody like that?
>A logical person would assume nothing based on that and would or
>should automatically know that could be hearsay...
If a logical person could quit laughter long enough, he might take the
time to inform you that if it's not first person testimony, it's
hearsay.
>Even if the suspects didn't "brag", it doesn't matter now that the >animal is dead and these three were arrested does it?...
For what crime were the accused arrested? A political jurisdiction and
a case number will do.
re: "In fact, one of the suspects has a juvenile record that includes
killing a dog in a microwave oven..." -anon
>TS>How do you know this to be true? In many states juvenile records >TS>are sealed other than in the most extenuating of circumstances.
> Heres the number...
You're kidding, right?
re: "If this [stopping bestiality] is truly your agenda, kindly learn
the difference between rumor and reportage before attempting to post
propaganda as news. Please be aware that claiming you're only posting a
'report' somebody else wrote does not absolve you and yours from any
inaccuracies contained within the 'report'..." -TS
>Our only interest in any of this is the sexual abuse aspect...
In response to my query about whether or not any bestiality had
occurred, you wrote: "whether it did or not at this point [it?] doesn't
matter a whole lot the animal was killed..."
Do you see any inconsistencies in your response?
>which if you read our web site you would see...
You post here, you show here.
>It is unfortunate that for someone who interacts with horses and reads >this group, that *all* you seem to get out of the entire two posts on >this case is not the animal's abuse and death, not her pain and >suffering...
Shouldn't you first establish a factual basis for your claims?
"Factual" as in "independently verifiable."
>Please leave your obvious dislike for animal right's groups at home...
Or what? You apparently have no idea of the total contempt I have for
so-called "animal rights" groups that siphon money away from the
grassroots animal welfare groups that house, feed and care for needy
animals.
>we are only concerned here with reporting the abuse and death of the
>animal...
If so, kindly perform the Mystical Ritual of the Five Ws instead of
posturing needlessly.
>in this case a horse on a horse related discussion group, to point out
>that letters should be sent to...
Why would anyone write a letter on the basis of your conjecture?
>One thing *is* certain, the mare is dead after having been dragged to >her death, the specific details are far less important...
Nossir, what *is* certain is that you have alleged a filly was killed
inhumanely, after being the victim of bestiality. It is also a matter
of certainty that allegations are not proof.
>Beyond this we don't have any interest in further debates here over the
>validity (or not) of groups...
Interested or not, you posted bullshit and got called on it. You can
debate or not debate: how badly you embarrass yourselves is your call.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
No me hagas preguntas, no te diré mentiras.
Tom Stovall
pro4a...@my-dejanews.com
sto...@wt.net wrote:
> >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
>
> It's not spring. "Young mares" are called "fillies." The use of
> "lifeless" and "body" is redundant in this context.
Spring was close enough for the context in which the report was made, and as
far as "Filly" v/s "young mare" the the average general public who reads such
news reports would far easier understand; "young mare" than "Filly"
> >In her battle against death, her desperate efforts to stay on her feet >left
scraped gouges in the pavement...
> You seem to have overlooked mentioning whether or not a veterinarian had
> determined on necropsy that bestiality had occurred. Without such a
Whether it did or not, or was just attempted or not, at this point doesn't
matter a whole lot now that the animal was killed after being dragged for a
mile...
> >From what we have been able to determine, three individuals attempted >to
sexually molest Buttons and another mare...
> Please give the means of determination by which you arrived at this
> conclusion.
Heres the number, call and ask: In Defense of Animals' phone# is
(415) 388-9641
> >We believe that Buttons, in an effort to protect herself, kicked one of >the
assailants...
>
> Belief is not knowledge. What is the factual basis for this
> extrapolation?
Heres the number, call and ask: In Defense of Animals' phone# is
(415) 388-9641
We don't know, unless one of the defendants complained of pain in his leg and
had bruises and torn pants, with blood running down his leg.
> >likely the reason she was murdered...
>
> One can't "murder" a horse, the term is correctly applied only to
> humans. However, buzzwords like "murder" are often used in so-called
> "animal rights" propaganda and are usually indicative of somebody's
> agenda that eventually leads to, "Send your tax-deductible contributions
> to..."
We agree, but we *did* state we posted the message as we had received it,
without changing the text. We would have changed that to "killed" if we
wanted to be responsible for editing someone else's press release.
> >Acquaintances of the suspects report that they bragged about killing
> >Buttons...
> Bearing in mind that the use of passive voice in reportage is often
> indicative of an attempt to substitute rumor for substance, wouldn't it
> be more accurate to say, "According to hearsay, the suspects are
> reported to have bragged about killing the filly."
We don't agree, if the acquaintances reported something then they reported it,
and as the news item stated clearly; "Acquaintances of the suspect
report.." A logical person would assume nothing based on that and would or
should automatically know that could be hearsay. Even if the
suspects didn't "brag", it doesn't matter now that the animal is dead
and these three were arrested does it?
> >In fact, one of the suspects has a juvenile record that includes
> >killing a dog in a microwave oven.
> How do you know this to be true? In many states juvenile records are
> sealed other than in the most extenuating of circumstances.
Heres the number, call and ask: In Defense of Animals' phone# is (415)
388-9641 It depends on the state and also the crime, every state considers
these aspects differently and may publish records of people age 17 and 16
just as they do for 18 and 19. A good reason to publish it would be if that
individual was convicted of, or charged with something serious like armed
robbery and was out on bail or parole. Another way might be if the suspect
had abused an animal before, and was charged, and someone from a group such
as IDA was in the court room during the trial, or hearing.
> >We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
> >financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or >distributing
news items regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from >their forums,
legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their >resources to educate
animal owners about sexual abuse of animals...
> If this is truly your agenda, kindly learn the difference between rumor
> and reportage before attempting to post propaganda as news. Please be
> aware that claiming you're only posting a "report" somebody else wrote
> does not absolve you and yours from any inaccuracies contained within
> the "report."
>
Our only interest in any of this is the sexual abuse aspect, which if you read
our web site you would see. We could care less about the animal right's groups
or *thier* agendas, we no more support some of their agendas than dog breeders
fully support the AKC's registration of puppy-mill and pet store stock while
supporting AKC events.
It is unfortunate that for someone who interacts with horses and reads this
group, that *all* you seem to get out of the entire two posts on this case is
not the animal's abuse and death, not her pain and suffering, but to post
solely to pick apart minute details such as; "it's not spring" and to attack
animal right's groups.
Please leave your obvious dislike for animal right's groups at home,
we are only concerned here with reporting the abuse and death of the
animal, in this case a horse on a horse related discussion group, to point out
that letters should be sent to the Mississippi
State Attorney's office, and to post resources to find more information
on this abuse.
One thing *is* certain, the mare is dead after having been dragged to her
death, the specific details are far less important.
Beyond this we don't have any interest in further debates here over the
validity (or not) of groups, or their agendas. If you wish to carry on
debates on thoe topic of animal rights and groups, there are plenty of pro
and con animal right's discussions on; talk.politics.animals where such
discussions would be right on target.
Anyone who feels they need to get explicit details and challenge the IDA
statements re; "spring", evidence and how they got it, juv. records and how
they got that etc. which vet determined the mare was raped, the number to
call which had been included in the releases mailed to us is;
In Defense of Animals' (415) 388-9641
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
====================================================================
We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
news items regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from their forums,
legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their resources to educate
animal owners about sexual abuse of animals...
====================================================================
Lorie
<7bkqfc$9o7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <36DD5BFC...@wt.net>,
> sto...@wt.net wrote:
>
>> >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
>>
>> It's not spring. "Young mares" are called "fillies." The use of
>> "lifeless" and "body" is redundant in this context.
>
>Spring was close enough for the context in which the report was made, and
as
Close enough??? Isn't the story _supposed_ to be non-fiction? At least in
theory?
>far as "Filly" v/s "young mare" the the average general public who reads
such
>news reports would far easier understand; "young mare" than "Filly"
This is rec.eq --- we know the difference.
>> determined on necropsy that bestiality had occurred. Without such a
>
>Whether it did or not, or was just attempted or not, at this point doesn't
>matter a whole lot now that the animal was killed after being dragged for a
>mile...
But your title claims the mare/filly _was_ sexually abused. Now you're
claiming this is just a guess??? Or hype?
>> >We believe that Buttons, in an effort to protect herself, kicked one of
>the
>assailants...
>>
>> Belief is not knowledge. What is the factual basis for this
>> extrapolation?
>
>Heres the number, call and ask: In Defense of Animals' phone# is
>(415) 388-9641
>We don't know, unless one of the defendants complained of pain in his leg
and
>had bruises and torn pants, with blood running down his leg.
Another exaggeration for effect?
>We agree, but we *did* state we posted the message as we had received it,
>without changing the text. We would have changed that to "killed" if we
> wanted to be responsible for editing someone else's press release.
A _press release_? A stinkin' piece of PR garbage?? I thought you
intimated that this was a factual piece of reporting --- I knew the name
*Buttons* sounded too stupid to be true.
>We don't agree, if the acquaintances reported something then they reported
it,
>and as the news item stated clearly; "Acquaintances of the suspect
>report.."
Ah, but it wasn't a news item, it was a PR ploy --- a work of fiction.
Nothing in it can be taken seriously if even one tiny shred was treated with
creative license.
>A logical person would assume nothing based on that and would or
>should automatically know that could be hearsay. Even if the
>suspects didn't "brag", it doesn't matter now that the animal is dead
>and these three were arrested does it?
Hearsay is useless. And the fact that someone may or may not have been
arrested is hardly the conclusive test of the facts.
>Our only interest in any of this is the sexual abuse aspect, which if you
read
>our web site you would see. We could care less about the animal right's
groups
>or *thier* agendas, we no more support some of their agendas than dog
breeders
>fully support the AKC's registration of puppy-mill and pet store stock
while
>supporting AKC events.
The people who read _this_ newsgroup, for the most part, love and respect
our horses in non-sexual ways. Did you even bother to post that press
release on any of the abberant sex newsgroups?
>Please leave your obvious dislike for animal right's groups at home,
I am at home. As I imagine Tom was when he wrote his posts. <g>
One last thing: If the abuse/death occurred in Mississippi, how come the
only phone number you kept giving out was to someone in the San Francisco
area?
Lorie
*New Arista breeches now on order -- in men's and women's sizes!
*Custom coolers, dress sheets, turnout rugs, and more from Jack's Mfg. now
available.
www.tackandapparel.com/
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
sto...@wt.net wrote:
> anonymous, posting as "pro4animal" wrote:
>
> re: "It's not spring. 'Young mares' are called 'fillies. The use of
> 'lifeless' and 'body is redundant in this context..." -TS
>
> >Spring was close enough for the context in which the report was >made...
> It's a small thing, but one's credibility suffers when one can't even
> get the season right.
Yes it does, however, one small thing you neglected, maybe that was because
by; "Spring" they were not referring to spring of 1999 as you assumed, but
spring of 1998 which was close enough of a date for """" the context in
which the article was written.
We hope by our sending your posts to the IDA (who wrote the original
article about the mare who was killed)
and cc'ing you (stovall) you will find your answers in your quest for
the details directly from them.
It can take a while for a case to wend it's way through the judicial system.
Maybe this news item below, or press release if you will, will suit you better
than the previous one, although in the end, one animal is dead the other is
only injured. See what you can do with this one;
Subj: (OK-US) Pregnant Horse Dragged by Owner
Date: 3/5/99 9:38:48 AM EST
From: sdu...@tulsa.cc.ok.us
Sender: owner-...@envirolink.org
To: ar-...@envirolink.org
Local news said that an Osage County man was charged Thursday with animal
cruelty for pulling a struggling horse behind a horse trailer.
Gary Bradley is accused of tying a rope around a mustang mare's neck and
pulling her after she refused to go into the trailer.
Osage County District Attorney Larry Stuart said Bradley was sent a letter
Thursday informing him that the charge had been filed and that he had 10
days to turn himself in.
Cathy Lowe and her 72-year-old mother, Margaret Toth, said they watched in
astonishment as Bradley pulled the fighting horse through their adjoining
circle driveways to turn around.
Lowe said the mare was digging her hooves in and pulling back against the
rope, which was tied around her neck, as she was dragged over asphant and
rock roadways.
Toth said blood was spraying from the horse's feet, and she had a huge
rope around her neck. She saw the flesh was all torn down loose and hanging
on the sides of her feet.
Lowe said the horse left about a 175-yard trail of blood.
The pregnant mare fell twice during the struggle but got back on her feet.
Lowe yelled at the man to stop and that she was calling the sheriff.
Bradley asked her if she wanted the horse. She said, no, but she didn't
want to see the horse dragged to death.
Toth stayed with the horse until the man untied her, and she soothed the
scared animal by talking to her and telling her she loved her.
Toth told the horse's owner that if she was a man, she'd beat him until he
bled like the horse.
The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigated the Feb. 24 incident and
submitted a report to the District Attorney's office on Feb. 26.
Dr. Charles Clinkenbeard, a Bartlesville veterinarian, said he treated the
horse with antibiotics and pain medication the evening of the dragging. He
said the horse was injured in the hock area, where there were scrapes from
asphalt burns.
Dr. Clinkenbeard sent a letter to the District Attorney's Office stating
that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The veterinarian claims that Bradley is a real animal lover. He blamed the
horse, claiming mustangs are hard to handle.
***Please write the district attorney to make sure that Bradley doesn't get
by with dragging this pregnant mare. With his veterinarian friend claiming
there's no abuse, it will be harder to prosecute this case. **
Larry Stuart, District Attorney
600 Grandview
Pawhuska, OK 74056
Fax: (918) 287-3137
Phone: (918) 287-1510
=======================
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Deborah Stevenson
>In article <36DE0AF2...@wt.net>,
> sto...@wt.net wrote:
>> anonymous, posting as "pro4animal" wrote:
>>
>> re: "It's not spring. 'Young mares' are called 'fillies. The use of
>> 'lifeless' and 'body is redundant in this context..." -TS
>>
>> >Spring was close enough for the context in which the report was >made...
>> It's a small thing, but one's credibility suffers when one can't even
>> get the season right.
>Yes it does, however, one small thing you neglected, maybe that was because
>by; "Spring" they were not referring to spring of 1999 as you assumed, but
>spring of 1998 which was close enough of a date for """" the context in
>which the article was written.
Then "this spring" was a misleading usage. If this is about a year-old
event, I think your release would be more effective if you acknowledged
this fact. It would be even more effective if you simply included the
date, as hard facts make a good impression when you're lobbying. Without
it, it suggests that you don't actually *know* the date, which is going to
call into question your real knowledge about this event and hence the
firmness of the grounds on which you take your stand.
>Maybe this news item below, or press release if you will, will suit you better
>than the previous one, although in the end, one animal is dead the other is
>only injured. See what you can do with this one;
There's a point I think you're not understanding. The tone and terms your
using to get people *more* interested in supporting your cause are making
some of us *less* so. Could be that's fine with you, that you'd rather
have fewer people, all in complete agreement with you, than more people,
who have more diverse views of the situation, supporting these campaigns.
I think, however, that's a mistake, and that you'd benefit from
considering other ways to approach raising awareness on this issue.
My 2 cents...
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
In full edit mode in Champaign, IL, USA
Tom Stovall
re: "It's a small thing, but one's credibility suffers when one can't
even get the season right..." -TS
>Yes it does, however, one small thing you neglected, maybe that was >because by; "Spring" they were not referring to spring of 1999 as you >assumed, but spring of 1998 which was close enough of a date for the context in which the article was written...
You wrote THIS spring. To anyone familiar with the English language,
"this spring" means the spring of THIS year - not last spring, spring
before last, or next spring, but THIS spring.
>We hope by our sending your posts to the IDA (who wrote the original
>article about the mare who was killed) and cc'ing you (stovall) you >will find your answers in your quest for the details directly from >them...
I'd be more interested in independently verifiable substantiation.
>It can take a while for a case to wend it's way through the judicial >system...
So?
>Maybe this news item below, or press release if you will, will suit you >better than the previous one, although in the end, one animal is dead >the other is only injured. See what you can do with this one;
>
> Subj: (OK-US) Pregnant Horse Dragged by Owner
> Date: 3/5/99 9:38:48 AM EST
> From: sdu...@tulsa.cc.ok.us
> Sender: owner-...@envirolink.org
> To: ar-...@envirolink.org
>
>Local news said that an Osage County man was charged Thursday with >animal cruelty for pulling a struggling horse behind a horse trailer.
For starters, you'll need to post the original source of the story
(e.g., the name of the newspaper and the date, head, byline, etc., in
which you claim the story was published) so that any interested party
can verify the particulars of the claim without benefit of spin.
>Gary Bradley is accused of tying a rope around a mustang mare's neck >and pulling her after she refused to go into the trailer...
>Osage County District Attorney Larry Stuart said Bradley was sent a >letter Thursday informing him that the charge had been filed and that >he had 10 days to turn himself in...
When you quote somebody as saying something, you MUST give a source.
[hearsay deleted]
>The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigated the Feb. 24 incident and
>submitted a report to the District Attorney's office on Feb. 26.
Source?
>Dr. Charles Clinkenbeard, a Bartlesville veterinarian, said he treated >the horse with antibiotics and pain medication the evening of the >dragging. He said the horse was injured in the hock area, where there >were scrapes from asphalt burns...
Source?
>Dr. Clinkenbeard sent a letter to the District Attorney's Office >stating that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Source?
>The veterinarian claims that Bradley is a real animal lover. He blamed >the horse, claiming mustangs are hard to handle...
Source?
>Please write the district attorney to make sure that Bradley doesn't >get by with dragging this pregnant mare. With his veterinarian friend >claiming there's no abuse, it will be harder to prosecute this case...
You're kidding, right? Why on earth would anyone be silly enough to
write a letter to a DA based on the hearsay posted by someone not only
posting anonymously, but seemingly incapable of providing even the most
rudimentary documentation for their allegations?
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
Tu madre lleva botas de combate.
Andrew Leech
[snip unpleasant story about horse being dragged behind pickup truck]
>Our only interest in any of this is the sexual abuse aspect, which if you read
Indeed...
>It is unfortunate that for someone who interacts with horses and reads this
>group, that *all* you seem to get out of the entire two posts on this case is
>not the animal's abuse and death, not her pain and suffering, but to post
... and all *you* are interested in is closing down web sites and getting laws
passed which have no direct connection with cruelty. From your previous
postings it appears that, had there not been the allegation of bestiality,
you would not have bothered to post the story. Are we to suppose that you are
happy for animals to be dragged behind trucks, as long as there is no "funny
business"?!
If you want anti-CRUELTY laws, why not campaign for laws which are against
cruelty, not bestiality? Here in the UK, the test for the law is "unnecessary
suffering" - it seems to me that for the animal, it matters not a whit whether
it suffers abuse in the course of sexual gratification, malicious damage,
pointless mischief or religious ritual. The question should properly be whether
the animal has suffered more than it would have in any other accepted (equestrian)
activity.
We do have a law against bestiality, but it is a morality statute, akin to those
on homosexuality. If you want more morality laws, just campaign for those,
but don't try to get them in "under the radar" by disguising them as animal
welfare issues.
Andrew
--
--
Email: a dotte leech atte uea dotte ac dotte uk - U-no-Y!
Andrew Leech *All opinions personal
Biological Sciences *
University of East Anglia *Economics is the eugenics of
Norwich, UK *the late 20th century.
Sigen 3
>that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Source?
I read it in the Tulsa World this morning.
Camille Higdon
Tulsa, OK
Don Bruder
<Extensive rationalization of piss-poor "reporting" snipped for brevity>
I like your continuous use of "we", "our", etc.
I can't help but wonder... Is this the royal "we", or do you have an
infestation? Or is it simply that you can't face up to the fact that your
one-man crusade is just that: one man?
You want to make a difference? Instead of worrying about trivia such as
this, get off your butt, crawl out from behind the nice safe anonymity of
your monitor, and spend some time at the local shelter/rescue organization
doing something useful rather than attempting to validate yourself by
publically tilting at the windmills that exist primarily in your own mind.
The critters will be happier for it, and I'm sure that most of rec.eq will, too.
--
Don Bruder - Dak...@primenet.com <--- Preferred Email - unmunged
Secondary --> Dak...@grfn.org +------------------------------+
Horseman by day, 'net-freak by night. What a contrast, eh?
Samantha Jordan
article about the horse but I found an article that relates to the waste
management issue that's being discussed in another thread.
Dragged Horse:
http://search.tulsaworld.com/webclass1.asp?WCI=DisplayStory&ID=990305_Ne_a1owner
I hope this guy gets punished severly. This sort of treatment of
animals really gets me fired up.
EPA pig waste:
http://search.tulsaworld.com/archivesearch/default.asp?WCI=DisplayStory&ID=990301_Bu_e1epawi
Samantha
Samantha Jordan
>
> I was feeling curious so I did some looking. I not only found the
> article about the horse but I found an article that relates to the waste
> management issue that's being discussed in another thread.
>
> Dragged Horse:
> http://search.tulsaworld.com/webclass1.asp?WCI=DisplayStory&ID=990305_Ne_a1owner
>
> I hope this guy gets punished severly. This sort of treatment of
> animals really gets me fired up.
errr . . . severely even. ; )
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
sig...@aol.comnojunk (Sigen 3) wrote:
> >>Dr. Clinkenbeard sent a letter to the District Attorney's Office >stating
> >that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Source?
>
> I read it in the Tulsa World this morning.
>
> Camille Higdon
> Tulsa, OK
Correct, and to clarify, this was the case of the mare who was dragged
and injured, not the one who was dragged and killed;
"The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigated the Feb. 24 incident and
submitted a report to the District Attorney's office on Feb. 26.
Dr. Charles Clinkenbeard, a Bartlesville veterinarian, said he treated the
horse with antibiotics and pain medication the evening of the dragging. He
said the horse was injured in the hock area, where there were scrapes from
asphalt burns.
Dr. Clinkenbeard sent a letter to the District Attorney's Office stating
that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The veterinarian claims that Bradley is a real animal lover. He blamed the
horse, claiming mustangs are hard to handle."
Interesting isn't it, how he treated the mare for these injuries yet stated he
saw no abuse! Go figure that one.
Mike
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
> sto...@wt.net wrote:
> >"pro_animal...", wrote:
> You wrote THIS spring. To anyone familiar with the English language,
> "this spring" means the spring of THIS year - not last spring, spring
> before last, or next spring, but THIS spring.
Sure, granted, if you were writing in the winter about some event being
planned to happen such as a reunion or party "this spring.."
If you are writing about an event past tense, you could use either "this
spring for the one year cycle of 365 days, fiscal year etc., with another
spring to occur at the end of that cycle. Or you could use; "Last spring".
Since it is not spring 1999 yet, one can safely assume when referring to a
news event that happened previously ; "This spring" untill another one comes,
then that spring (1998) becomes; "Last spring"
But certainly no one should mistake a news event as having occurred in the
future regardless of the wording.
> >We hope by our sending your posts to the IDA (who wrote the original
> >article about the mare who was killed) and cc'ing you (stovall) you >will
find your answers in your quest for the details directly from >them...
> I'd be more interested in independently verifiable substantiation.
Be happy we did that much leg-work for you, and your benefit. We simply made
a post and then you saw fit to post insulting remarks, curses and an air of
beligerance in every single post. All over a rather insignificant post on a
little newsgroup, one of about 30,000 newsgroups.
We had posted polite responses devoid of cursing, beligerance and
personal insults.
> >It can take a while for a case to wend it's way through the judicial
>system...
> So?
So.... that was why they made reference to the past, it took time for all this
to happen and the suspects have been released.
> >Maybe this news item below, or press release if you will, will suit you
>better than the previous one, although in the end, one animal is dead >the
other is only injured. See what you can do with this one;
> >
> > Subj: (OK-US) Pregnant Horse Dragged by Owner
> > Date: 3/5/99 9:38:48 AM EST
> For starters, you'll need to post the original source of the story
> (e.g., the name of the newspaper and the date, head, byline, etc., in
> which you claim the story was published) so that any interested party
> can verify the particulars of the claim without benefit of spin.
Someone already did when they said they posted here that saw it in the
Oklahoma press was it?
> When you quote somebody as saying something, you MUST give a source.
We are not reporters, nor are we paid for our time.
We posted what we had, and included the author's email and where it had been
posted to all, intact. You really expect a lot, if you want more it would
probably be simpler in the future to ignore our messages, that way you don't
have to get upset if it doesn't include the veterinarian's and the Police
investigator's shoe sizes and underwear brand okay? (Being sarcastic)
> >The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigated the Feb. 24 incident and
> >submitted a report to the District Attorney's office on Feb. 26.
>
> Source?
The Osage County sheriff's office of course, and the D.A's office, surely a
call to them would be far more proof than taking anyone else's word for it.
> You're kidding, right? Why on earth would anyone be silly enough to
> write a letter to a DA based on the hearsay posted by someone not only
> posting anonymously, but seemingly incapable of providing even the most
> rudimentary documentation for their allegations?
>
> Tom Stovall CJF
> Farrier & Blacksmith
> sto...@wt.net
> http://web.wt.net/~stovall
We figured you would attack that item even though it quite clearly included
lots of verifiable details; the vet's name and location, the specific
sheriff's dept and location, the DA's office, phone, fax and location etc.
In any case, here is part of the mail we sent to IDA, including some
suggestions today in response to their reply to our request for more
information for our web site regarding "Buttons", the mare who was sexually
abused and dragged to death. They asked what we would like them to forward to
us, news clips etc. I assume IDA sent Stovall the same letter we received;
Subj: Re: Buttons the Mare sexual abuse case.
Date: 3/5/99 9:33:14 PM EST
From: AnimalSav
To: i...@idausa.org
CC: sto...@wt.net
In a message dated 3/5/99 2:43:05 PM EST, i...@idausa.org (In Defense of
Animals) writes:
> ok........What do you want, the press clippings, the Attorney General's
> email address and mail address, the investigators name, where this
> happened, let me know
> david
> IDA
Hi David, We would greatly appreciate any and all the information and details
you have, and will gladly install it on our web site. For us it was enough
to know the mare was sexually abused for us to get involved by posting the
item to help the case.
But now that we have the information on our web site, we would like to add
more details for our campaign against bestiality/zoophilia which this case
contains.
SNIPPED
I believe he also mistook your; "this spring.." line in the news item to mean
spring of 1999 judging by his statements.
SNIPPED
We should also take a moment and suggest in the future when you send out these
news items, that you include as much detail as possible or situations such as
this one on rec.equestrian will happen again.
Such a situation would only hurt the animals involved as readers such as
Stovall on rec.equestrian begin posting messages telling people the news
was garbage, to ignore it as propaganda.
We realise you needed to get the important information out in a one paragraph
item, but as you can see some misunderstandings can occur if you don't include
specific details, vet's names etc.
Again, thanks for your involvement on this matter,
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
> stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah Stevenson) wrote:
> > pro_a...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Then "this spring" was a misleading usage. If this is about a year-old
> event, I think your release would be more effective if you acknowledged
What a refreshing and polite response, thank you Deborah. Of course the
important thing from the start was to get the word out, so I am sure the IDA
felt their news alert item needed only the basic important details for their
regular readers such as; whom to contact to protest slacking off on
prosecuting the case.
You will notice in our post a few minutes ago we wrote David at the IDA and
also suggested they make sure in the future they provide more details. For
our purpose (the web site) we didn't need the dtails, but would like to
obtain them and so we requested the news clippings and information be sent to
us.
I am sure they probably just didn't realise not everyone reads the papers
or missed a prior release they made which we didn't see, and didn't hear about
the case.
> >Maybe this news item below, or press release if you will, will suit you
better
> >than the previous one, although in the end, one animal is dead the other is
> >only injured. See what you can do with this one;
> There's a point I think you're not understanding. The tone and terms your
> using to get people *more* interested in supporting your cause are making
Deborah, I was being mildly sarcastic towards Stovall when I posted that
second case! It just happened to have come in the mail while I was drafting a
message on the Buttons case. So I posted it for that reason, but more
importantly it was an abuse case that deserved some publicity. Since I was
posting anyway, it was the old; "two birds with one stone" I suppose just
happened to work out that way.
> My 2 cents...
Well said, and thanks for your nice response.
mike
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
And...@see.sig.for.email (Andrew Leech) wrote:
> In article <7bkqfc$9o7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pro4a...@my-dejanews.com
says...
> >It is unfortunate that for someone who interacts with horses and reads this
> >group, that *all* you seem to get out of the entire two posts on this case is
> >not the animal's abuse and death, not her pain and suffering, but to post
> ... and all *you* are interested in is closing down web sites and getting laws
> passed which have no direct connection with cruelty. From your previous
> postings it appears that, had there not been the allegation of bestiality,
> you would not have bothered to post the story.
All of that propagates the abuse and draws minors, curious, and others into
experimentation on animals and when the fireworks fizzle out the animal may be
dumped or taken to a shelter.
We only have a certain amount of time in any given day to devote to a cause
or causes, like anyone else. There are already thousands of groups (each with
their own redundant directors, boards and staff) and individuals who fight
every other animal abuse issue, be it factory farming, overcrowded animal
shelters, discarded pets, starved horses, useless LD50 tests to determine if
swallowing floor wax is poisonous, or if cigarettes can kill you, you name it
there's already dozens of groups handling all of those issues.
We could spend all day just reading and posting redundant items about fur,
factory farming, pet overpopulation etc., and it would do little to no good.
How many did you know go after and devote time to the bestiality abuse
issues? Only recently have animal groups and individuals become involved in
this issue in a serious way. The HSUS after having investigated the
bestiality forums and the rest for the past 4 years, and finding that having
sex with animals is *legal* in half the states.
> Are we to suppose that you are
> happy for animals to be dragged behind trucks, as long as there is no "funny
> business"?!
Absolutely not, but as we said about, we only have so much time like anyone
else to get involved with the thousands of cases and items we all hear and
read about every year.
> If you want anti-CRUELTY laws, why not campaign for laws which are against
> cruelty, not bestiality?
We already have anti cruelty laws here in the states, but due to oversights
and changes in the laws (bestiality used to carry the death penalty in the
middle ages) the removal of laws demanding the death penalty left *no* law in
their place. And no, most animal abuse laws do not specify bestiality, so
most courts can't yet convice someone for bestiality unless it is described
in the body of the law. The HSUS, a group in Switzerland, and others are
working on changing that by legislative means, to change the current abuse
laws in states that have no anti bestiality laws of any kind, to include
sexual contact with animals as an animal abuse issue in their animal abuse
laws. The HSUS strike team spent 4 years infiltrating and investigating the
various zoophile/bestiality forums, web sites, chat rooms, mailing lists
etc., gathering evidence to judge the scope of the problem.
In the other states that have laws, the penalty is often times no more than a
petty fine. That will be changed to include sex with animals as animal abuse.
If a state has a felony animal abuse law, then bestiality will be included.
> Here in the UK, the test for the law is "unnecessary
> suffering" - it seems to me that for the animal, it matters not a whit whether
> it suffers abuse in the course of sexual gratification, malicious damage,
> pointless mischief or religious ritual. The question should properly be
whether
> the animal has suffered more than it would have in any other accepted
>(equestrian)
> activity.
The UK of course differs from the USA in much of that.
Here, the laws usually include specific wording such as; "failure to provide
water and food once per 24 hours, shelter when the temperature is below "X"
degrees" etc.
The UK law sounds a little open to a court's personal interpretation as to
what was "un-necessary suffering"
> We do have a law against bestiality, but it is a morality statute, akin to
> those
> on homosexuality.
That is why the states have this problem now, the laws that once covered
bestiality were also the ones that addressed human moral and religios related
sexual issues. Once those were removed, such as a recent one in Georgia state,
it left the animals with *no* protections in many states.
Many people contacted the legislators in Georgia to tell them about this after
being made aware of the old sodomy law's removal, and the state made sure
bestiality carries a penalty.
>If you want more morality laws, just campaign for those,
> but don't try to get them in "under the radar" by disguising them as animal
> welfare issues.
>
> Andrew
Andrew, We don't really give a "whit" about morality laws or religious
issues, what any consenting adults do in private is their business, between
them and the God they worship if any, and certainly none of ours. It becomes
a societal issue when a non human, unwilling human, or a severely retarded
person, or child becomes involved. That and coupled with scores of web sites
and forums promoting more of the same demands action be taken, that is why
the HSUS and the group in Switzerland decided to get involved- they became
aware of just how widespread this has become.
Child porn and sites promoting it are illegal, so should bestiality.
If you are interested in the specific state by state laws, we have a list of
all 50 states on our web site and their specific laws re: bestiality;
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
Scroll down to the law link.
Tom Stovall
[deletia in places]
re: Attempted damage control for seasonal confusion. "You wrote THIS
spring. To anyone familiar with the English language, 'this spring'
means the spring of THIS year - not last spring, spring before last, or
next spring, but THIS spring..." -TS
>Sure, granted, if you were writing in the winter about some event >being planned to happen such as a reunion or party "this spring.."
Until "THIS" becomes synonymous with "LAST", your attempt at linguistic
damage control is doomed to failure.
re: Unsubstantiated claims. "I'd be more interested in independently
verifiable substantiation..." -TS
>Be happy we did that much leg-work for you, and your benefit...
For the sake of accuracy, allow me to point out that you haven't done
any "leg-work" and any benefit derived from ferreting out the truth of
the matter is of value to everyone.
>We simply made a post and then you saw fit to post insulting remarks, >curses and an air of beligerance in every single post. All over a >rather insignificant post on a little newsgroup, one of about 30,000 >newsgroups...
You are not required to like either my method of expression or my
questioning of your posts.
> We had posted polite responses devoid of cursing, beligerance and
> personal insults.
Polite bullshit is still bullshit and reeks just as badly of mendacity.
If you find my pointing out that your posts are allegations masquerading
as fact to be inconvenient, get used to being offput.
re: "For starters, you'll need to post the original source of the story
(e.g., the name of the newspaper and the date, head, byline, etc., in
which you claim the story was published) so that any interested party
can verify the particulars of the claim without benefit of spin..."
> Someone already did when they said they posted here that saw it in the
> Oklahoma press was it?
Someone posted the URL of a story in a Tulsa paper in which cruelty to a
horse was indeed alleged and a warrant issued for the accused
individual; however, the same story states the veterinarian who examined
the horse determined that no inhumane treatment had taken place and
informed the DA of his professional opinion. Is that the one you mean?
re: "When you quote somebody as saying something, you MUST give a
source..." -TS
> We are not reporters, nor are we paid for our time.
It's not a reporter thing, it's a rules of the writing road thing.
Failure to cite a source when using quotation marks is not just bad
writing, it utterly destroys one's credibility because it causes the
weakest of bullshit detectors to sound off.
>We posted what we had, and included the author's email and where it had >been posted to all, intact. You really expect a lot, if you want more >it would probably be simpler in the future to ignore our messages, that >way you don't have to get upset if it doesn't include the >veterinarian's and the Police investigator's shoe sizes and underwear >brand okay? (Being sarcastic)...
It would probably be simpler if folks rolled over and played brain dead
when True Believers of your ilk posted allegations as truth, but don't
count on it happening on rec.eq. When you post bullshit, somebody will
call you on it. (Being realistic.)
re: "Source..."? -TS
>The Osage County sheriff's office of course, and the D.A's office,
>surely a call to them would be far more proof than taking anyone else's >word for it...
I haven't taken your word for anything. You claimed a horse was abused
and somebody was arrested, I've asked for a political jurisdiction a
case number and any adjudication. Other than a bylined story in the
_Tulsa World_, none has been forthcoming.
re: "Why on earth would anyone be silly enough to write a letter to a DA
based on the hearsay posted by someone not only posting anonymously, but
seemingly incapable of providing even the most rudimentary documentation
for their allegations?..." -TS
>We figured you would attack that item even though it quite clearly
>included lots of verifiable details; the vet's name and location, the >specific sheriff's dept and location, the DA's office, phone, fax and >location etc.
You seem a bit foggy on the nature of verification. If you want to
claim something happened, you'll need to learn to cite the sources of
you quotations and verify the factual content of anything you post
BEFORE you post it, not to make a pathetically desperate attempt
afterwards in a vain attempt to save face.
>In any case, here is part of the mail we sent to IDA, including some
>suggestions today in response to their reply to our request for more
>information for our web site regarding "Buttons", the mare who was >sexually abused and dragged to death...
You seem to be a slow learner. If you have personal knowledge that a
mare was indeed the victim of bestiality, please indicate that you saw
the act and give the particulars; but, if you are attempting to offer
hearsay as fact, be aware that anyone with an IQ grater than their age
will find that ploy to be more laughable than horrific.
As nearly as I can tell, without the attempted spin: in OK, a horse was
hurt, somebody claimed cruelty, the DA issued a warrant for a man
alleging cruelty, but the examining vet said no cruelty had occurred.
Does that about sum the OK thing up in terms of fact?
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"I'm a farrier." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."
Diana
>
> As nearly as I can tell, without the attempted spin: in OK, a horse was
> hurt, somebody claimed cruelty, the DA issued a warrant for a man
> alleging cruelty, but the examining vet said no cruelty had occurred.
> Does that about sum the OK thing up in terms of fact?
>
> Tom Stovall CJF
Give us a break, Mr. Stovall. The poster may be a hysteric, but
the two newspaper articles lend credence to the incident. And
most of us know of a vet or two who is willing to testify that
"no cruelty occurred" for a friend, or money, or to keep his
business going because maybe other horse people in the area would
be made uncomfortable by his testimony (could I be next? I did
whack old Buck last week when Doc was here...).
And I know damn well there are plenty of vets out there who have
a definite prejudice against mustangs, and consider them inately
dangerous and untameable, and (by their reasoning) therefore fair
game for tough (read abusive) training methods.
Diana
--
No NONO to email
Tom Stovall
re: "As nearly as I can tell, without the attempted spin: in OK, a horse
was hurt, somebody claimed cruelty, the DA issued a warrant for a man
alleging cruelty, but the examining vet said no cruelty had occurred.
Does that about sum the OK thing up in terms of fact?..."
> Give us a break, Mr. Stovall. The poster may be a hysteric, but
> the two newspaper articles lend credence to the incident...
As badly as it seems to distress those folks of the True Believer
persuasion, the facts do not support the seeking of a stout rope and a
tall tree. The case seems to consist of the word of one person against
the other, one of whom has the support of a veterinarian. If it ever
goes to court, which do you feel will carry the most weight with a jury?
>And most of us know of a vet or two who is willing to testify that
>"no cruelty occurred" for a friend, or money, or to keep his
>business going because maybe other horse people in the area would
>be made uncomfortable by his testimony (could I be next? I did
>whack old Buck last week when Doc was here...)...
I'm acquainted with probably 50 equine practitioners, including several
present and retired members of the Texas A&M faculty. Some of them
drink my whiskey, others are barely civil, but I don't know a single one
of them I think would be unethical enough to perjure themselves in a
cruelty case. Not a one!
On the other hand, I do know several vets who have donated freely of
their time to various worthy causes, including several animal shelters
in Greater Houston. And, at one time or another, every vet of my
acquaintance has worked on a horse while knowing they were going to get
stiffed on the bill, simply because the horse needed working on.
>And I know damn well there are plenty of vets out there who have
>a definite prejudice against mustangs, and consider them inately
>dangerous and untameable, and (by their reasoning) therefore fair
>game for tough (read abusive) training methods...
You "know damn well?" More accurately, don't you mean "you feel", "you
think" or "in your opinion"? In reality, you damn well don't KNOW
anything of the kind, you are making an allegation based on your belief.
Belief is not knowledge.
And, by the bye, feral horses caught with much age on them ARE dangerous
(fact) and not certainly not worth the investment in time it takes to
make them useful to mankind (opinion).
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
No me hagas preguntas, no te diré mentiras.
Bill Kambic
<serious snipping>
> Dr. Charles Clinkenbeard, a Bartlesville veterinarian, said he treated the
> horse with antibiotics and pain medication the evening of the dragging. He
> said the horse was injured in the hock area, where there were scrapes from
> asphalt burns.
>
> Dr. Clinkenbeard sent a letter to the District Attorney's Office stating
> that HE SAW NO SIGN OF ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> The veterinarian claims that Bradley is a real animal lover. He blamed the
> horse, claiming mustangs are hard to handle."
>
> Interesting isn't it, how he treated the mare for these injuries yet stated he
> saw no abuse! Go figure that one.
The testimony of a treating vet will, and should, be given significant weight. He
was the one who laid hands upon the horse and rendered treatment. As such, his
findings of fact must ge given great deference.
As one who frequently bears the burden of prosecution of animal cruelty cases, I
can assure you that newspaper accounts are given no weight or credibility
whatsoever. Lawyers call them "hearsay." Unless they fall under one of the many
exceptions to the hearsay rule, they are not admissible. Neither are the rantings
and ravings of people "who just KNOW something bad happened!"
Prosecutors, to obtain a conviction, must PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that
that a crime was committed and the defendant did it. That proof may be physical
or be oral testimony. But if the prosecutor does not have the PROOF, then there
is no conviction. Nor should there be one. Period.
Bill Kambic, World's Oldest Law Clerk
Roane Co., TN, District Attorney Generals Office
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
sto...@wt.net wrote:
> "pro_animal..." wrote:
>
> >Sure, granted, if you were writing in the winter about some event >being
planned to happen such as a reunion or party "this spring.."
>
> Until "THIS" becomes synonymous with "LAST", your attempt at linguistic
> damage control is doomed to failure.
Well.. the only problem is, Neither Pat nor I wrote the original article, and
thus can't speak for the author as to their language skills or methodology.
But we did provide the author's contact information, why don't you contact
them directly and ask? You have their address and phone because you were
provided them and your email address was included in the cc of the mail sent
to them.
>
> >Be happy we did that much leg-work for you, and your benefit...
> For the sake of accuracy, allow me to point out that you haven't done
> any "leg-work" and any benefit derived from ferreting out the truth of
> the matter is of value to everyone.
You were put in direct contact with the authors who wrote back to us at
least, and asked what additional information would we like them to send,
newspaper clippings, Sheriff's name etc. Now that you have David at IDA's
attention, you can ask him directly so you need not take anyone else's word
for it as far as accuracy and sources.
> >We simply made a post and then you saw fit to post insulting remarks, >curses
and an air of beligerance in every single post. All over a >rather
insignificant post on a little newsgroup, one of about 30,000 >newsgroups...
> You are not required to like either my method of expression or my
> questioning of your posts.
I see.. I suppose then that means we don't need to bother wasting our time
responding to more of your posts containing the same kind of text and
attitude, it works both ways you see.
> > We had posted polite responses devoid of cursing, beligerance and
> > personal insults.
> Polite bullshit is still bullshit and reeks just as badly of mendacity.
> If you find my pointing out that your posts are allegations masquerading
> as fact to be inconvenient, get used to being offput.
Then get used to seeing future posts like that including any and whatever
details the originals contain, and having to get upset about it and going
through all this each time. Not that there would be many cases like that, but
those few in the news involving horses we find or see will be posted.
It really would be easier for you to ignore our future posts and go
about your business more relaxed as a result.
> re: "For starters, you'll need to post the original source of the story
> (e.g., the name of the newspaper and the date, head, byline, etc., in
> which you claim the story was published) so that any interested party
> can verify the particulars of the claim without benefit of spin..."
We will post exactly and what ever the original items contain.
> > Someone already did when they said they posted here that saw it in the
> > Oklahoma press was it?
> Someone posted the URL of a story in a Tulsa paper in which cruelty to a
> horse was indeed alleged and a warrant issued for the accused
> individual; however, the same story states the veterinarian who examined
> the horse determined that no inhumane treatment had taken place and
> informed the DA of his professional opinion. Is that the one you mean?
That was the one, the second story of the other mare who was dragged behind a
trailer by her owner because she wouldn't get in it. Now you have a delemma,
which part of that newspaper story do you believe?
The part about the eyewitness accounts etc about the mare's injuries and blood
down her legs, and that the vet treated the animal with antibiotics and
treatments.
Or the line about the vet, who may have big bucks clients he doesn't want to
lose by ratting on one or a friend of one, by saying it was not abuse when it
was?
Keep in mind two newspapers reported that story. Seems to me you'd better
make a call to that vet or the DA's office and directly get the absolute
verifiable source on the phone personally to ask about the details and proof.
Why take the newspaper reporter's word for it.
We posted what we had, and included the author's email and where it had been
posted to all, intact. You really expect a lot, if you want more it would
probably be simpler in the future to ignore our messages, that way you don't
have to get upset if it doesn't include the veterinarian's and the Police
investigator's shoe sizes and underwear brand okay? (Being sarcastic)...
> >The Osage County sheriff's office of course, and the D.A's office,
> >surely a call to them would be far more proof than taking anyone else's >word
for it...
> I haven't taken your word for anything. You claimed a horse was abused
> and somebody was arrested, I've asked for a political jurisdiction a
> case number and any adjudication. Other than a bylined story in the
> _Tulsa World_, none has been forthcoming.
So make that call today to the sheriff's office, that would be your absolute
best proof in the world. If you use 10-10-220 before the number it will only
cost you 99 cents for the call if it is 20 minutes or less.
> >We figured you would attack that item even though it quite clearly
> >included lots of verifiable details; the vet's name and location, the
>specific sheriff's dept and location, the DA's office, phone, fax and >location
etc.
> You seem a bit foggy on the nature of verification. If you want to
> claim something happened, you'll need to learn to cite the sources of
> you quotations and verify the factual content of anything you post
> BEFORE you post it, not to make a pathetically desperate attempt
> afterwards in a vain attempt to save face.
It is not up to us to verify every piece, if it comes from a good source we
know of, that is good enough for us and 99% of most people.
The fact is these kinds of cases occur nationwide on a regular basis,
everyone sees these kinds of abuse cases reported in newspapers and on tv
news. Cases like this are not rare nor unusual, and cases involving teens
setting fire to dogs, cats, people poisining stray cats, intentionally
running over animals etc exist all too often.
Bizzarre cases such as the Barry Herbeck case in Minnisoda also exist, he
raped and tortured cats and dogs in front of his kids, put a husky sized dog
into a garbage can and left her there for a week untill she died. He is
serving ten years for it.
Interesting, because of the tens of thousands of readers you claimed read
this forum, you seem to be about the only one ranting and raving about this
all week. Seems to me, most of the rest of the readers care more about the
animals involved, and that someone would do this.
> >In any case, here is part of the mail we sent to IDA, including some
> >suggestions today in response to their reply to our request for more
> >information for our web site regarding "Buttons", the mare who was >sexually
abused and dragged to death...
> As nearly as I can tell, without the attempted spin: in OK, a horse was
> hurt, somebody claimed cruelty, the DA issued a warrant for a man
> alleging cruelty, but the examining vet said no cruelty had occurred.
> Does that about sum the OK thing up in terms of fact?
That sums up the second case, but the DA wouldn't have issued a warrant had
he not seen evidence or was convinced such an extreme act was required. The
vet, well he treated the animal which shows there were injuries, so it would
be his personal opinion there was no cruelty, another vet would probably
disagree. There is a matter of personal opinion at work. No one knows the
circumstances of the vet, was the horse owner a big bucks client of his? Or
the loan officer at the bank where the vet has his mortgage?
Would, not overlooking this one incident cause the vet to essentially be run
out of town and lose his business as the word gets out that he "ratted on" a
friend of so and so?
No one here knows the answers to that.
That's about it, when/if we receive additional details on the first case we
will post them for the benefit of readers and to followup on the case
further. There are more important things to be done with our time than
circular arguments with Stovall over a news item posted a week ago, demanding
sources we already posted the first time, you won't even call or write the
author to ask them personally for verification of the information you
demanded, so it's out of our hands.
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>> stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah Stevenson) wrote:
>>> pro_a...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>>> What a refreshing and polite response, thank you Deborah. Of course the
>>> important thing from the start was to get the word out, so I am sure the IDA
>>> felt their news alert item needed only the basic important details for their
>>> regular readers such as; whom to contact to protest slacking off on
>>> prosecuting the case.
>>Do you know where this alleged incident took place? I was unable to
>>find any reference to it in last years Mississippi papers.
>>Samantha
You will notice in our post previously that we wrote David at the IDA who
originated the item, and also suggested they make sure in the future they
provide more details. For our purpose (the web site) we didn't need the
details, or the actual location, vet's name etc- most people don't unless it
happens to be in one's local area or involving people they know. We would
like to obtain the details, and so we requested the news clippings and
information be sent to us. It was planned that when and if additional details
on this case and those charged came out, we would post them at that time in
all the forums the first item was posted to. Stovall chose to attack before
that could occur. Sometime this week when David at the IDA replies with that,
we will be happy to post what they send to us. Thanks for asking
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Diana
> anonymous, posting as "Diana", wrote:
Not posing, my name is Diana Linkous.
> > Give us a break, Mr. Stovall. The poster may be a hysteric, but
> > the two newspaper articles lend credence to the incident...
>
> As badly as it seems to distress those folks of the True Believer
> persuasion, the facts do not support the seeking of a stout rope and a
> tall tree. The case seems to consist of the word of one person against
> the other, one of whom has the support of a veterinarian. If it ever
> goes to court, which do you feel will carry the most weight with a jury?
I am certainly not a True Believer in any sense of the word. As
for the case consisting of the word of one person against
another, it seems to me the vet's report of the injuries to the
horse negate his claim of "no abuse". And the case would not
necessarily go before a jury; could be heard before a judge.
> >And most of us know of a vet or two who is willing to testify that
> >"no cruelty occurred" for a friend, or money, or to keep his
> >business going because maybe other horse people in the area would
> >be made uncomfortable by his testimony (could I be next? I did
> >whack old Buck last week when Doc was here...)...
>
> I'm acquainted with probably 50 equine practitioners, including several
> present and retired members of the Texas A&M faculty. Some of them
> drink my whiskey, others are barely civil, but I don't know a single one
> of them I think would be unethical enough to perjure themselves in a
> cruelty case. Not a one!
Try West Virginia and MANY other places in this country. I do not
speak as a True Believer since I am not one; I speak from the
experience (admitedly second hand) of having conversed at length
with reputable and long-time equine rescue operators who have
experience with this type of good old boy network, which may
consist of vets, farriers, owners, trainers, insurance agents,
those willing to electrocute horses to emulate a natural death,
those who break horses' legs so the owner can claim accidental
death, and more. I also know many decent vets, etc., and thank
god they are in the vast majority.
> On the other hand, I do know several vets who have donated freely of
> their time to various worthy causes, including several animal shelters
> in Greater Houston. And, at one time or another, every vet of my
> acquaintance has worked on a horse while knowing they were going to get
> stiffed on the bill, simply because the horse needed working on.
And so do I. I am not slamming vets here, just opening the
possibility that they are not all godlings.
> >And I know damn well there are plenty of vets out there who have
> >a definite prejudice against mustangs, and consider them inately
> >dangerous and untameable, and (by their reasoning) therefore fair
> >game for tough (read abusive) training methods...
>
> You "know damn well?" More accurately, don't you mean "you feel", "you
> think" or "in your opinion"? In reality, you damn well don't KNOW
> anything of the kind, you are making an allegation based on your belief.
> Belief is not knowledge.
No, I know damn well. I administer the wildhorses list, which is
composed primarily of people who have adopted wild horses from
the BLM and people who are professional trainers of the same. I
have heard from them both on list and off about the problems some
of them have in even getting a farrier or vet to come out to
their place to trim feet or treat their horses. Often, once the
vet or farrier does venture forth, he/she finds a well mannered
horse to deal with, and then changes his/her mind.
> And, by the bye, feral horses caught with much age on them ARE dangerous
> (fact) and not certainly not worth the investment in time it takes to
> make them useful to mankind (opinion).
"Much" age? Want to quantify that? Not worth the investment in
time for you, perhaps. There is now a new, pilot program the BLM
is using where professional trainers with the right facilities
and the right experience with feral horses take in older
stallions and do the initial gentling so that when offered for
adoption, these horses can be easily caught, haltered, led and
their feet worked with.
As for their being dangerous, EVERY horse is potentially
dangerous. For those who have the interest and are willing to
learn, adopting and gentling a wild horse of whatever age can be
a great adventure. It is a longer process to gentle a wild horse
which has been a herd stallion, and thus damn sure he is the
leader in any relationship, and also longer to gentle any older
mare who was alpha in the herd.
And yes, I know you've had it out on this topic in the past with
Barb Cross and certain others (Willis Lamm in particular), and
those people are (and were in Barb's case) my teachers and
friends. And please, don't EVER call me a True Believer. I am not
and never will be. I have made the effort to go out and seek
workshops with wild horses, and visit people who own wild horses,
as well as observing BLM adoptions, and corresponding and talking
via phone with wild horse owners, and I ask a lot of damn pointed
questions and have a good bullshit detector.
And please don't call me on using the word "wild" instead of
"feral"; I know these are feral horses, but the common usage is
the word wild, and it well describes them when they first come in
after capture.
Diana LINKOUS
Laura Friedman
>
> > >We figured you would attack that item even though it quite clearly
> > >included lots of verifiable details; the vet's name and location, the
> >specific sheriff's dept and location, the DA's office, phone, fax and >location
> etc.
>
Someone posted about a case of what appeared to be garden variety animal
cruelty, at best, which had completely different details than the case
you were claiming occured, and now you're saying their the same case?
Are you serious? And where was the sexual abuse in the trailer loading
incident?
> The fact is these kinds of cases occur nationwide on a regular basis,
> everyone sees these kinds of abuse cases reported in newspapers and on tv
> news. Cases like this are not rare nor unusual, and cases involving teens
> setting fire to dogs, cats, people poisining stray cats, intentionally
> running over animals etc exist all too often.
>
Animal abuse certainly exists. I have yet to see you site one
verifiable case of sexual abuse pertaining to horses.
Laura
Tom Stovall
[deletia]
re: "You seem a bit foggy on the nature of verification. If you want to
claim something happened, you'll need to learn to cite the sources of
you quotations and verify the factual content of anything you post
BEFORE you post it, not to make a pathetically desperate attempt
afterwards in a vain attempt to save face..." -TS
>It is not up to us to verify every piece, if it comes from a good >source we know of, that is good enough for us and 99% of most people.
Wrong! It IS up to you to verify the factual content of anything you
post. You wouldn't know a "good source" if it jumped up and bit you on
the nalgas. And, unless I missed the election, you don't speak for
"99% of most people", you speak only for yourself.
Tom Stovall
re: "As badly as it seems to distress those folks of the True Believer
persuasion, the facts do not support the seeking of a stout rope and a
tall tree. The case seems to consist of the word of one person against
the other, one of whom has the support of a veterinarian. If it ever
goes to court, which do you feel will carry the most weight with a
jury?..." -TS
>I am certainly not a True Believer in any sense of the word. As
>for the case consisting of the word of one person against
>another, it seems to me the vet's report of the injuries to the
>horse negate his claim of "no abuse"...
Do you really think abuse occurs any time a horse is injured? The vet
wrote that the injuries were not consistent with abuse. If you have
first hand knowledge that he falsified a police report, why haven't you
come forth? Surely you wouldn't make such an accusation based on
hearsay!
>And the case would not necessarily go before a jury; could be heard >before a judge...
I didn't say the case WOULD go before a jury, I asked what what you
thought would happen IF it did. The case might be heard by a judge, but
if more than $20 is involved, I believe the defendant can ask for a jury
trial. (See Article VII, US Constitution.) Bill?
>I'm acquainted with probably 50 equine practitioners, including several
>present and retired members of the Texas A&M faculty. Some of them
>drink my whiskey, others are barely civil, but I don't know a single >one of them I think would be unethical enough to perjure themselves in >a cruelty case. Not a one!
>Try West Virginia and MANY other places in this country...
Please list on this forum all the veterinarians in West Virginia - or
anywhere else - who have been convicted of perjury in animal abuse
cases. It will be a very short list. I can think of two vets that were
convicted in a killing-horses-for-insurance scheme, but a single swallow
don't mean it's spring.
>I do not speak as a True Believer since I am not one; I speak from the
>experience (admitedly second hand)...
Oops! There's no such critter as "second hand experience." Think about
it this way: no woman ever got pregnant from hearing about another's
sexual activity, no matter how graphic the description.
>of having conversed at length with reputable and long-time equine >rescue operators who have experience with this type of good old boy >network, which may consist of vets, farriers, owners, trainers, >insurance agents, those willing to electrocute horses to emulate a >natural death, those who break horses' legs so the owner can claim >accidental death, and more.
If you have first hand knowledge of any such activities, I urge you to
report it to the proper authorities. If you don't and are claiming it
does - while you appear to dislike the term "True Believer" - the shoe
appears to fit.
re: "On the other hand, I do know several vets who have donated freely
of their time to various worthy causes, including several animal
shelters in Greater Houston. And, at one time or another, every vet of
my acquaintance has worked on a horse while knowing they were going to
get stiffed on the bill, simply because the horse needed working
on..."-TS
> And so do I. I am not slamming vets here, just opening the
> possibility that they are not all godlings.
Nobody has argued that vets should be outfitted for halos, I've simply
pointed out that you cannot claim that somebody did something - in this
case lying about animal abuse and submitting a false police report -
unless you have personal knowledge of such an occurrence.
re: "You 'know damn well?' More accurately, don't you mean 'you feel',
'you think' or 'in your opinion'? In reality, you damn well don't KNOW
anything of the kind, you are making an allegation based on your belief.
Belief is not knowledge..." -TS
>No, I know damn well. I administer the wildhorses list, which is
>composed primarily of people who have adopted wild horses from
>the BLM and people who are professional trainers of the same. I
>have heard from them both on list and off about the problems some
>of them have in even getting a farrier or vet to come out to
>their place to trim feet or treat their horses. Often, once the
>vet or farrier does venture forth, he/she finds a well mannered
>horse to deal with, and then changes his/her mind...
Often? What percentage of the time would you say is "often" and how
exactly did you arrive at that conclusion?
re: "And, by the bye, feral horses caught with much age on them ARE
dangerous (fact) and not certainly not worth the investment in time it
takes to make them useful to mankind (opinion)..." -TS
>"Much" age? Want to quantify that?...
Certainly: anything with a full mouth.
>Not worth the investment in time for you, perhaps.
Most assuredly not worth the investment in time to me. Like anyone
else, I can buy horses for little more than killer prices that don't
have any feral baggage.
More importantly, feral horses are not worth 25 million taxpayer dollars
a year [according to the AP] to pander to the True Believers who think
they should be afforded a status not enjoyed by their domestic brethren.
Why not lobby your congressman to repeal the misbegotten Wild Horse...
Act of 1972 and simply sell those feral horses their range won't support
at public auction? Please don't be silly enough to say anything about
feral horses being in any way "special", other than by an accident of
birth.
>As for their being dangerous, EVERY horse is potentially
>dangerous...
Don't be absurd: Do you really think a five year old feral horse fresh
off the range and a five year old domestic horse that's been handled all
its life represent the same real or potential danger to folks coming in
contact with them?
>And yes, I know you've had it out on this topic in the past with
>Barb Cross and certain others (Willis Lamm in particular), and
>those people are (and were in Barb's case) my teachers and
>friends. And please, don't EVER call me a True Believer. I am not
>and never will be...
Remember the thing about ducks?
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
LFri...@nospam.net wrote:
> pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >We figured you would attack that item even though it quite clearly
> > >included lots of verifiable details; the vet's name and location, the
> >specific sheriff's dept and location, the DA's office, phone, fax and >
>location
>Laura Friedman asked:
>You claimed there was a recent case in which "sexual abuse" occured.
>Someone posted about a case of what appeared to be garden variety animal
>cruelty, at best, which had completely different details than the case
>you were claiming occured, and now you're saying their the same case?
>Are you serious? And where was the sexual abuse in the trailer loading
>incident?
Laura, that would be us who posted both. Perhaps you missed one of the
posts, so this will clarify;
I posted last week what I'll call; "The first post", it was simply a request
for people to contact the Mississippi Attorney General's office about the case
and asking them to pursue it further, it had included a sample letter to send.
That was the case in which the news item we rec'd, and then re-posted about a
mare who was sexually abused and then dragged to death. Here below is the post
in part with the original sender's email address and forum in which it was
posted;
==================================
The following news item and request to contact Mike Moore ( State Attorney
General) regarding a mare who was sexually assaulted and then dragged to death
in Mississippi was posted on another forum by IDA.
The defendants were released, and the state has no laws against sexual abuse
of animals. Here is a list of each state's law;
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
People certainly can at least take 2 minutes to send the Mississippi state
SNIP
We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
SNIP
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
Your hosts,
Mike and Pat
>>Sender: owner-...@envirolink.org
>>Reply-to: sdu...@tulsa.cc.ok.us
>>In Defense of Animals sent this in their latest letter, and I don't
>remember seeing it on ar-news. If it's been on already, I am sorry for the
>>repeat.
>>PLEASE write a letter similar to the following to:
>>Mike Moore
>>State Attorney General
>>P.O. Box 220
>>Jackson, MS 39205
>>Dear Mr. Moore,
>>I recently learned of the tragic case of Buttons, a young mare who was
>>sexually molested and dragged to death in Mississippi. This spring,
>>Buttons' lifeless body was discovered nearly a mile from her barn. >>Evidence
>>of her struggle was found along the paved road, including deep gouges she
>>made as she attempted to remain on her feet.
>>Three suspects in this heinous crime were released by the Sheriff's
>>Department. The botched investigation of this crime indicates a cover-up
>>surrounding Buttons' death.
SNIP
==============
We then posted a second news item we rec'd, which included the animal group's
telephone number for more information on that particular case.
Subsequently, we also posted what we'll call; "The third post", which was the
news item about a pregnant mare who was not willing to get into a trailer, so
her owner dragged her, causing injuries and the DA's office to issue a warrant
for the arrest of the horse owner. That case did *not* include any sexual
aspects.
Laura, I think you simply got the two seperate cases mixed up, they are two
completely unrelated cases, and only the first had sexual abuse. Both were
posted simply for general interest for those who would like to get involved
in the two cases and express their views to the two Attorney General's
offices handling the cases. That was why they included the Attorney General's
addresses. Neither contained, nor would we have included in our posts, any
pleas or second party animal group requests for donations of money, even if
there were any in the original author's messages.
They were you see, forwarded to request that people write the Attorneys about
the cases, that's all. They were just news items, not even meant or posted to
start a discussion.
>Animal abuse certainly exists. I have yet to see you site one
>verifiable case of sexual abuse pertaining to horses.
>Laura
Laura, not many make the news, some have, and you asked for it, so this
message will be a long one. We will post some of the details here. Most do
not make the news because they occur in private, similar to husbands who beat
and abuse their wives, or pedophiles molesting children who usually get away
with their crime, and most never make the news unless the child is seriously
hurt or killed.
A horse being raped, or killed is not usually uppermost in a reporter's mind
for top news story of the day against stories like Bill Clinton and
Monica.... Some made just Reuters or AP and page 20 in papers at the bottom
where most people miss these things.
I will include some of a few cases in the news, but first, here are the
abusive activities which don't make the news unless those doing them are
caught, how often does that happen?
The IGA equine rescue group has a web site; http://www.iga.org which has a
sub page about this kind of abuse along with files, photos etc that they
provide to law enforcement. You will notice they shut down over 2,000 equine
related web sites devoted to sexual abuse of horses. And they have evidence
and photos of convicted equine zoophiles.
International Generic Horse Association and HorseAid Web/FTP Guide Page
The Worlds Largest All-Breeds Registry & Equine Rescue/Welfare Organization
Founded 1975
http://www.igha.org/abuse.html
le...@igha.org
This is what the abuse page says in part:
=========================================
Zoophilia
(zoo-phi-li-a', n. Sexual attraction to, or affinity for, animals)
Lately, HorseAid has been receiving a lot of e-mail on this most abhorrent
form of equine abuse. We have not addressed this issue publicly before
because frankly, it is distasteful to us, and because we
we have been addressing this issue electronically since we first "officially"
went on-line in 1989
Since that time, we have been directly responsible for closing down over 2000
equine related zoophile and bestiality Web sites (plus at least another 1000
in conjunction with other groups) and BBS's (and some "general" zoophile
sites that contained equine related zoophilia), including the infamous
"mare666" Web site (IRC #horselove) out of Denmark (although we hear he is
looking for a new server now). If you do a Web search for "equine zoophile"
sites, you will find that most of the site URLs that show up on the various
search engines do not exist anymore -- this is directly due to our
intervention. Currently, Geocities, AOL, and Angelfire are the most popular
(and inadvertant) Web hosts to equine 'zoos, but almost every host offering
free Web space is vulnerable.
Please don't e-mail us with a complaint about a "general" zoophilia or
bestiality site (the Web host is the one to contact).
we only have the resources and expertise to handle equine related abuse
cases.
The I.G.H.A. and HorseAid are very strong supporters of the U.S.
Constitution's Bill of Rights, but we draw the line at any form of equine
abuse, and we consider equine zoophilia to be equine abuse -- period! No
matter what the zoophiles say, zoophilia is not exactly sex between
consenting adults is it?
We have an extensive Web site section available to any District Attorney
currently involved in
prosecuting an equine zoophile case located at: http://equinerescue.org/Zoo/,
which has evidentiary
photographs, equine zoophilia related information, and a list of convicted
equine zoophiles, world-wide (the list is accurate, but not extensive, as the
information has been extremely difficult for us to obtain).
To gain access to this area of our site, please e-mail us your credentials,
and the reason you are requesting the access. After we have verified your
credentials, you will be supplied (via certified U.S. postal mail ONLY) with
a user name and password allowing you to access our equine zoophile database.
========================================================== We forwarded this
web site information to the DA's office in Mississippi yesterday.
On to the rest:
You can go to www.dejanews.com, select Power Search in the toolbar.
Enter for key words:
FAQ how to mini
Forum, put in; alt.sex.bestiality
Subject: same as above; FAQ how to mini
You will find 141 file items describing "how-to", pertaining to abusive sexual
activities with horses, and just on those keywords on one forum alone for the
current dejanews database (there is a seperate past and a current database)
Here is an index in one of the FAQ's for horses. There are FAQs for stallions,
and mares. You will notice these are maintained and posted by
someone from the (taxpayor funded?) Public University in Michigan. These files
are also published on hundreds of web sites devoted exclusively to promoting
animal sexual activities as a "legitimate orientation" like being gay or
straight.
I cleaned up the language below;
Search Results
Messages 1-100 of exactly 141 matches for search FAQ how to mini:
Date Scr Subject Forum Author
1. 98/10/15 035 FAQ: Index [1/2] #2/2 alt.sex.bestiality ASB FAQ-keeper
2. 98/05/15 035 FAQ: Index [1/2] #2/2 alt.sex.bestiality ASB FAQ-keeper
3. 98/02/07 035 ASBest Mini FAQ alt.sex.bestiality Irs-FAQ-Daemon
4. 98/11/15 034 FAQ: Index [1/2] #2/2 alt.sex.bestiality ASB FAQ-keeper
5. 98/11/01 034 FAQ: Index [1/2] #2/2 alt.sex.bestiality ASB FAQ-keeper
6. 98/10/22 034 PIP: HOWTO -- Mini Stall#1/7 alt.sex.bestiality ASB
FAQ-keeper
7. 98/10/01 034 FAQ: Index [1/2] #2/2 alt.sex.bestiality ASB FAQ-
SNIPPED
FAQ: Index [1/2]
Author: ASB FAQ-keeper <s...@umcc.umich.edu>
Date: 1998/11/15
Forum: alt.sex.bestiality
Message segment 2 of 2 - Get Previous Segment - Get All 2 Segments
PIP: Zoophilia and Your Health
[Posted on the twelfth of every month]
SNIPPED
PIP: Zoophilia in Music and Art
[Posted on the sixteenth of every month]
SNIPPED
PIP: HOWTO -- Equines
[Posted on the twentieth of every month]
A. How to have more fun with your stallion
B. Helpful Tips: Stallions
C. How to have more fun with your mare
D. Helpful Tips: Mares
PIP: HOWTO -- Mini-Stallions
[Posted on the twenty-second of every month]
A. Some Caveats
B. Definitions -- Details
C. Notes on the Erogenous Zones
D. Getting it on with your horse
E. Masturbation
F. SNIPPED him up
G. Snipped kneeling
H. SNIPPED reclining
I. Anal SNIPPED front to back
J. Anal SNIPPED face-to-face
K. Tips on keeping a Mini
PIP: HOWTO -- Canines
[Posted on the twenty-fourth of every month]
A. Guide to
SNIPPED
There are many many disgusting web sites devoted to offering or selling photos
and videos of this too, thereby promoting more of this abuse.
We have more information on all that on our web site, it is indeed an eye
opener that most people would rather not see or know about, and if that is you
we understand.
One web site as an example that lists over 100 links, many of them relating to
horses; http://www.ianszoolinks.com Be warned it is a mildly graphic
site which is also promoting illegal porn sales.
Listed below are few examples of animal sexual
abuse cases reported in the media
Most cases of animal sexual abuse are never reported. The abuse often
occurs in private and the victims cannot report it.
Most below concern horses, a few do not. They include what ever
newspaper, police dept, locations and other named sources that were included
originally when we obtained them over time via various searches.
(NOTE, We previously mentioned this case below from memory and incorrectly
said it was in Minnisoda, it was Wisconsin)
July 1998 - Janesville, Wisconsin
Thirty-seven year old Barry Herbeck was convicted of five felony counts
of animal cruelty for torturing and killing five cats. One cat was
sodomized and died as a result of its injuries.
Although initially charged with bestiality, the misdemeanor charge was
dropped in a plea agreement. Herbeck had previous convictions for the sexual
assault of a child, burglary, theft, and battery. (Journal Sentinel)
Case also appears in detail with photos at
http://www.execpc.com/~anlob/index.html complete with quotes from at least one
woman who gave Barry a female dog, photos of the dog before and after she was
killed. Barry is serving a ten year sentance.
===========
July 1998 - Victorville, California
Brian Lee Courtier,
A 25-year-old man was charged with allegedly stealing a horse from
her corral and sexually assaulting her. The man admitted to the attack,
which occurred just six months after he was convicted of having sex
with another horse in the same area. (Victor Valley Daily Press)
(Cindy Beaver, Sheriff's spokesperson)
February, 1997 - El Cajon, California
A 49-year-old man was charged with breaking through a fence and
stalking and assaulting a horse. The sheriff's records show the man
was arrested in the late 1980s for a similar offense but not charged.
Complaints began more than a decade ago when the San Diego Zoo's
longtime spokeswoman, Joan Embrey, first alerted authorities.
(Associated Press)
August, 1996 - Eagleville, Tennessee
A 68-year-old man pled guilty to indecent exposure after a neighbor
testified that the man had sexual intercourse with his miniature horse.
He was charged with indecent exposure because Tennessee did not
have a law prohibiting sex with animals. The man was ordered to
undergo counseling. (Police Records)
===========
Snipped for brevity;
Patricia Dibsie Staff writer, sandiego union-times
21-Feb-1997 Friday
EL CAJON A 49-year-old Lakeside man pleaded not guilty yesterday to
misdemeanor charges of sexually assaulting a horse and trespassing...
Paul Millhouse is accused of crossing into a pasture on private property in
Lakeside, taking his clothes off and (deleted)
report by a Santee sheriff's detective.
... Complaints of animal molestation in Lakeside began more than a decade
ago...
...sheriff's deputies arrested Millhouse on suspicion of sexual assault on
a...
The people in the area are frustrated because we can't get the law to take
this man off the streets...
...contending that Millhouse has continued to trespass on her property,
cutting a fence...
...she saw Millhouse checking out a neighbor's horse and decided to warn the
people living there... The neighbor hired two private detectives...
Millhouse was caught on (video) tape (deleted) the horse, authorities said...
...Lights don't stop him, fences don't stop him, getting arrested doesn't stop
him. It's time for the neighborhood to make sure the courts help solve...
A Serial Horse Molester - Alberta Report, October 23, 1995
October 23, 1995 issue of Alberta Report.
A SERIAL HORSE MOLESTER
RCMP near Edmonton hunt for an adolescent pervert
When Jacob and Anna Neufeld returned to their acreage near Tofield on Oct.2,
they immediately sensed that another sadistic violation of their horses had
occured. A small gate was open and a broom lay near the stall of their prize
two-year-old miniature stallion, Scottie. The retired couple found Scottie
bleeding from the rectum, an injury that RCMP say was caused by a broomstick.
Their tiny, beloved pet expired in agony 30 minutes later. I saw him die, a
sad and shaken Mrs. Neufeld says. It was pretty traumatic.
She and her husband raised miniature horses on their property 40 miles east
of Edmonton until the harmless creatures suffered a series of brutal sexual
attacks. In May Mrs. Nuefeld, 69, entered the barn to do some chores and
noticed their pregnant mare
SNIP
Today RCMP Sargeant Don Homenuk says police believe the perpetrator is a male
and in his early to mid teens. There may be more than one individual
involved, and they may well live close enough to the Neufeld's in-town
acreage to observe their comings and goings with ease. It seems more like a
crime of convenience, he says. A nearby farm with an abundance of small
animals has not had any trouble.
Although police are still working on a criminal profile, Sgt. Homenuk says it
looks more like the work of an adolescent than an adult. We've all known
people who as kids all of a sudden hang a cat upside down or use turpentine
on a dog's anus and watch him yelp, he says. To help the RCMP get their man
or boy, concerned residents have established a reward fund at the Tofield
Bank of Montreal.
-Gina Teel
Alberta Report October 23, 1995 page 21
June, 1995- Winfield, West Virginia
A man pled guilty to three counts of animal cruelty after a police officer
observed him having sex with a dog. He was sentenced to thirty days
in jail and a $100 fine on each charge. The jail time was suspended,
and he was placed on two years probation. Neighbors told police of two
similar incidents that had occurred earlier the same day. (Charleston
Daily Mail)
August, 1994 - St. John Township, Indiana
A 23-year-old man was sentenced to three years in prison after
attempting to kidnap a German Shepherd. The man had a history of
sexually abusing and killing animals. In 1991 he killed a rooster and a
goose in separate incidents. The judge released him to get counseling.
Instead, in 1992 he kidnapped and broke the neck of a neighbor's dog.
He served a short prison term, and less than a month after being
paroled he was arrested for attempting to kidnap another dog. He also
reportedly had sex with neighbors' chickens and killed them.
Deputy Prosecutor Natalie Bokota also turned up an incident in his
background involving torturing the family cat in the microwave. She said
"He stalks animals, kills them and then has sex with them."
(Post-Tribune)
April, 1994 - Kingsport, Tennessee
A 26-year-old man was charged with animal cruelty for allegedly
sexually assaulting his dogs. The Sullivan County Sheriff's
Department acknowledged having received similar complaints in the
past that it had been unable to corroborate. An anonymous 911 call led
a deputy sheriff to the man's residence where he reportedly heard a
dog screaming in pain and then saw the man "came outside pulling up
his pants and zipping his zipper." The local humane society took
possession of seven dogs and three cats. An animal cruelty
investigator said one of the puppies show evidence of recent
penetration. A veterinarian determined that all the dogs were sick and
suffered from malnutrition. (Kingsport Time-News)
July, 1991 - New Bedford, Massachusetts
An unknown assailant broke into a zoo and sexually assaulted a tame
white-tailed deer and then beat the animal to death. The injuries
included a fractured jaw and extensive bleeding from the rectum and
vagina. (The Standard-Times)
From: http://www.crl.com/~lcopley/bestiality.txt
lco...@crl.com
undated news item, probably from 1995 off main page;
http://www.crl.com/~lcopley/
PROSECUTORS PERPLEXED BY ALLEGED BESTIALITY CASE
King County prosecutors expect to decide next week if charges will be
filed in an Enumclaw case involving pygmy goats and sex.
The difficult questions the prosecutors face:
Should a 29-year-old man who allegedly had sex with the goats be
charged with a crime - perhaps burglary - for breaking into the goat
barn?
And should the angry 48-year-old goat owner, who blasted the intruder
with a shotgun, be charged with assault?
"It's definitely one of the most bizarre cases we've seen in a long
time," said Dan Donohoe, a spokesman for the prosecutor's office.
County police had been called to the Enumclaw-area home at 3 a.m. June
28 by the homeowner, who said he was awakened by commotion in the goat
barn and found the suspect there.
The goat owner told police the suspect had molested the goats several
times before, Donohoe said.
Neither man was arrested. The suspect was taken to a hospital, for
removal of shotgun pellets imbedded in his knees.
A veterinarian who examined the goats found that several "had a
trauma to the genital areas," Donohoe said.
The homeowner had obtained an anti-harassment order from Aukeen District
Court Feb. 28. He complained that he and his daughter had found the suspect
in the goat pen on two previous occasions.
The court document ordered the suspect not to come within one-quarter
of a mile of the homeowner's property.
The suspect, who has worked as a dishwasher in the Enumclaw area, has
two previous burglary convictions.
In 1985 he was sentenced to 60 days in jail for stealing two rifles
from an Enumclaw residence. Two years later, he got a 90-day sentence
for stealing computer equipment from an Enumclaw business.
================
Laura, you asked for one case, I hope this provides more than one case for
you. Mike and Pat
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
Bill Kambic <wka...@vic.com> wrote:
> pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> <serious snipping>
>
> > Dr. Charles Clinkenbeard, a Bartlesville veterinarian, said he treated the
> > horse with antibiotics and pain medication the evening of the dragging. He
> > said the horse was injured in the hock area, where there were scrapes from
> > asphalt burns.
> The testimony of a treating vet will, and should, be given significant weight.
>He
Unfortunately true even tho it mentions scrapes and asphalt burns and having
to be given pain medication.
> As one who frequently bears the burden of prosecution of animal cruelty cases,
>I can assure you that newspaper accounts are given no weight or credibility
> whatsoever. Lawyers call them "hearsay." Unless they fall under one of the
> many exceptions to the hearsay rule, they are not admissible.
Yes, in a court of law such things cannot be taken as proof, that we know. As
for ourselves, we are not dealing in a court of law here and just posted the
items as an awareness issue of this abuse. not to effect a conviction in
court. Convictions and evidence are for the courts and the rest to put
together and deal with.
> Prosecutors, to obtain a conviction, must PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that
> that a crime was committed and the defendant did it. That proof may be
>physical
> or be oral testimony. But if the prosecutor does not have the PROOF, then
>there is no conviction.
Quite true, and liability issues as well as libel and lawsuits are in the
front of everyone's mind with such an allegation against someone. That and
lack of court verifiable proof does not mean the event did not occur, it only
means there was not enough evidence for conviction. In a bestiality case tho,
just being formally arrested, even if released uncharged for such a thing
would be a lifelong punishment as neighbors and others who know the accused
read the papers and would always wonder and think; if he was arrested he must
have done it.
> Bill Kambic, World's Oldest Law Clerk
> Roane Co., TN, District Attorney Generals Office
Bill, I notice your signature and am happy to report your state has a law
against bestiality/zoophilia abuse of animals;
From our law page:
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
Tennessee Tenn. Code. Ann. @39-13-501 (1994)
Many states do not!
Can you say offhand what the penalty is in your state?, the above was the only
information we had for our law page.
California last year reportedly enacted a new or revised animal abuse law
which we were told *would* cover sexual abuse.
Some states as examples below:
Washington DC DC Code @22-3502 (1994) (Sexual Psychopath chapter) Fine not
more than $1,000 and/or sentence of not more than 10 yrs
North Dakota N.D.Cent. Code @12.1-20-03, 12.1-20-07, 12.1-20-12(1993)
Various penalties and can be considered either gross sexual
imposition, sexual assault or deviate sexual act
Kansas K.S.A. @2103506 (1993)Aggravated criminal sodomy security level 2,
felony
Louisiana Revised Statutes 14:89 $2,000 fine and/or 5 years with or without
hard labor NEW 1997
Montana Mont. Code. Ann.,@45-5-505 (1994)10 year sentence and/or
$50,000 fine.
Canada; Criminal Code of Canada Section 153 Approx 10 years
New Zealand; Crimes Act of 1964 Section 143 & 144 Maximum 7 years PT United
Kingdom;Sexual Offences Act of 1956, Section 12(1) Sexual Offences Act of
1967, Section 3(1)Life imprisonment
Regards, Mike and pat
a
> In article <36DD5BFC...@wt.net>,
> sto...@wt.net wrote:
>
> > >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
Lets see some proof on this alleged incident. can you document your
source? all i see is some secondhand information...and that can get
addended to and blown all out of proportion.
lets see some proof!
Tom Stovall
[deletia in lots of places]
re: "You claimed there was a recent case in which "sexual abuse"
occurred. Someone posted about a case of what appeared to be garden
variety animal cruelty, at best, which had completely different details
than the case you were claiming occurred, and now you're saying their
the same case? Are you serious? And where was the sexual abuse in the
trailer loading incident?..." -LF
>I posted last week what I'll call; "The first post", it was simply a >request for people to contact the Mississippi Attorney General's office >about the case and asking them to pursue it further, it had included a >sample letter to send...
Why would anyone be foolish enough to post a request asking folks to
write an attorney general without checking on the factual content of the
basis of their plea?
>That was the case in which the news item we rec'd...
Not "news item", press release.
>and then re-posted about a mare who was sexually abused and then >dragged to death...
Wouldn't it be more honest to say that you posted a press release
alleging a mare was the victim of both bestiality and inhumane treatment
without bothering to check on your facts? In reality, no independently
verifiable evidence was posted to support your claim and none has been
forthcoming, despite several requests.
>Both were posted simply for general interest for those who would like >to get involved in the two cases and express their views to the two >Attorney General's offices handling the cases...
Since you can't document that any abuse or bestiality actually occurred,
why would you ask anyone to write a state official? Doing so would only
make them appear to be as silly as yourselves.
>They were just news items, not even meant or posted to start a >discussion...
They were just press releases and you don't have any choice relative to
any discussion engendered by your posting of press release as factual.
re: "Animal abuse certainly exists. I have yet to see you site one
verifiable case of sexual abuse pertaining to horses..." -LF
>Laura, not many make the news, some have, and you asked for it, so >this message will be a long one. We will post some of the details here. >Most do not make the news because they occur in private...
>I will include some of a few cases in the news, but first, here are the
>abusive activities which don't make the news unless those doing them >are caught, how often does that happen?
Always? Never? Who knows?
>The IGA equine rescue group has a web site... You will notice they shut >down over 2,000 equine related web sites devoted to sexual abuse of >horses...
Two thousand? You're kidding, right?
>International Generic Horse Association and HorseAid Web/FTP Guide Page
>The Worlds Largest All-Breeds Registry & Equine Rescue/Welfare >Organization Founded 1975...
I remember IGHA/HorseAid! They cast their nets upon these waters a few
years back and left with their collective tails tucked firmly between
their legs, whining about the ingratitude of folks for having the
audacity to question their motives. It seems that while they were
asking folks to have their horses branded and pimping their various
"services", they neglected to point out they were a FOR PROFIT
organization. The late Barbara Cross took them to task for claiming to
be registered in California when they apparently weren't and some
outfit that was freeze branding horses for them publicly disassociated
themselves from them on this forum because they claimed IGHA/HorseAid
had neglected to pay them for their services. Anyone desiring to check
it out can do a power search at <<http://www.dejanews.com>>, keyword:
IGHA/HorseAid.
I thought IGHA/HorseAid was a scam then, I think it's a scam now.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
No me hagas preguntas, no te diré mentiras.
C.M.Newell
>> The testimony of a treating vet will, and should, be given significant weight.
> >He
>
>Unfortunately true even tho it mentions scrapes and asphalt burns and having
>to be given pain medication.
While I'm not offering any views on what actually happened in
this case, one could tie a horse to a stationary object, and have it
sustain scrapes and asphalt burns, perhaps necessitating pain
medication.
CMNewell, DVM
*****
Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
The Chuck of Eq
Tom Stovall
{deletia]
re: Association with IGHA/HorseAid.
>International Generic Horse Association and HorseAid Web/FTP Guide Page
>The Worlds Largest All-Breeds Registry & Equine Rescue/Welfare >Organization Founded 1975...
Congratulations! You've managed to get in bed with one of the most
notorious so-called "animal welfare" groups existent. When you tire of
attempting to make folks think press releases have anything to do with
news, you might want to check out the following URL.
<<http://www.horseweb.com/client/kka/kka_aid.htm>>
Bill Kambic
<judicious snipping>
> >And the case would not necessarily go before a jury; could be heard >before a judge...
>
> I didn't say the case WOULD go before a jury, I asked what what you
> thought would happen IF it did. The case might be heard by a judge, but
> if more than $20 is involved, I believe the defendant can ask for a jury
> trial. (See Article VII, US Constitution.) Bill?
Close. Very close!!!<g>
In a civil case the right to trial by jury is "preserved" (i.e., held about what is was in English and American Common Law at the time the Constitution was ratified) as long as the amount in controversy was more than $20.00. This is a Federal right, and I do not know how far is has been extended by the 14th Amendment. Of course, most states have "open court"
provisions in their State constitutions that define the right to trial by jury in a civil case.
In a criminal case the right to a trial by jury is absolute. Period. Only the defendant can waive this right, and a judge need not accept the waiver.
The case being discussed is a criminal matter and thus the right to trial by jury is absolute.
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Bill Kambic
> Unfortunately true even tho it mentions scrapes and asphalt burns and having
> to be given pain medication.
So what? I can think of lots of ways for a horse to get some "road burn" without
abuse being involved.
"Yes, in a court of law such things cannot be taken as proof, that we know. As for
ourselves, we are not dealing in a court of law here and just posted the items as an
awareness issue of this abuse. not to effect a conviction incourt. Convictions and
evidence are for the courts and the rest to puttogether and deal with."
Are you suggesting its time for torches, white sheets, and night riding? Or are you
satisfied with unsubstantiated allegations and character assassination?
> Quite true, and liability issues as well as libel and lawsuits are in the
> front of everyone's mind with such an allegation against someone. That and
> lack of court verifiable proof does not mean the event did not occur, it only
> means there was not enough evidence for conviction. In a bestiality case tho,
> just being formally arrested, even if released uncharged for such a thing
> would be a lifelong punishment as neighbors and others who know the accused
> read the papers and would always wonder and think; if he was arrested he must
> have done it.
Where there is evidence of crime it should be investigated. If sufficient, it
should be prosecuted. If not enough for a criminal proceeding, but enough for a
civil or administrative proceeding, then that's the way we go. As for the rest, it
is fodder for the National Supermarket Checkout Examiner ("I get it in the
supermarket checkout line." Ray Stevens)
> Bill, I notice your signature and am happy to report your state has a law
> against bestiality/zoophilia abuse of animals;
>
> From our law page:
> http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
>
> Tennessee Tenn. Code. Ann. @39-13-501 (1994)
>
> Many states do not!
>
> Can you say offhand what the penalty is in your state?, the above was the only
> information we had for our law page.
Nor right off hand (I did not look it up and it's late and I'm tired).
But, oh, happy day! I am waiting for that first one to show up in a stack between,
say, a murder one and an aggravated rape of a child. Which of the three do you
think we should pay most attention to?
Now don't get me wrong: I think folks who engage in this activity are in need of
some serious guidance (from a shrink or probation officer or somebody). But this
ain't violence to a person. It is, at best, damage to property. A particularly
sick form of vandalism, maybe. But not a whole lot more.
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
> >and then re-posted about a mare who was sexually abused and then >dragged to
death...
> none has been
> forthcoming, despite several requests.
Sir, if you read your email on Friday from Dave at the IDA like we did, I
would assume you rec'd the same letter we did from the IDA (originators of
the news item) requesting exactly what would we like them to forward on to
us.
They listed examples such as; newspaper clippings, Law enforcement contact
etc. Since that was Friday evening when we responded to dave's mail, we have
to guess they are probably not open on Sat/Sun and won't therefore read our
reply asking for all of it to be sent to us- untill Monday or Tuesday if they
receive a lot of email and ours is at the bottom.
At least that makes sense to us!
> >Laura, not many animal sexual abuse cases make the news, some have, and you
> >asked for it, so this
> >message will be a long one. We will post some of the details here. >Most do >
> >not make the news because they occur in private...
> >The IGA equine rescue group has a web site... You will notice they shut >down
over 2,000 equine related web sites devoted to sexual abuse of >horses...
> Two thousand? You're kidding, right?
Hmmm, no, why would anyone "kid" about that? They have been on line since 1989
so 2,000 web sites in 10 years = an average of 200 per year no?
There are millions of web sites, thousands if not more are added every
day, so 2,000 is a very small percentage of the total.
Pat and I have a list of animal sex related web sites we closed in October
alone, as you can see it is a fairly extensive list. Most of these sites were
on geocities and tripod, both free web servers. Their terms of service for
free pages state clearly the rules, and every one of these animal rape sites
violated all the rules on content. With a single complaint of the illegal
porn and animal abuse promotion, graphic sex files the admins close them
almost the same day.
We became quite friendly with Neil, an administrator on Tripod, we would
search his web server for zoophile related keywords, forward the list of URLS
to him and he shut them down. Neil was so sick of these XXX rated web sites
damaging their family oriented services, that he was and is happy we help
them out by providing the URLS.
So no, 2,000 sites devoted to this are a drop in the bucket and if you do a
dejanews search for any of the usual keywords you will notice the index pulls
up documents containing them numbering into six figures.
Many of these sites were devoted to or included equine sexual abuse how-to
files, images, links to get more, contact ads and other such text. None of
them were commercial pay sites, all were personal web sites. We haven't even
addressed commercial sites;
CLOSED sites for; October 1998
http://psg.com/~jimd/uzp/ Reopened admin refused to remove
http://www.psg.com/~jimd/uzp/index2.html
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~livelife/ REMOVED"dobbin" pages
http://www.danbbs.dk/~brc/dobbin/main.html CLOSED dobbin
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4947/ CLOSED
http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/andes/2120 CLOSED
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Island/7975/ CLOSED
http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/village/9684 CLOSED
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4947/h_love.htm CLOSED Zoophile equine
http://members.tripod.com/~catching/dolph.htm CLOSED Zoophile porn
http://members.tripod.com/~zoopal/ CLOSED Zoophile Dolphin
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Had a condom manufacturer sponsor
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anima...@onelist.com CLOSED 10/13/98
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http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/v/19727
>
> >International Generic Horse Association and HorseAid Web/FTP Guide Page
> >The Worlds Largest All-Breeds Registry & Equine Rescue/Welfare >Organization
Founded 1975...
> I thought IGHA/HorseAid was a scam then, I think it's a scam now.
We sent them your post, and hope for your sake there is a 100% truth to your
statements or you may hear from their lawyers this week if they felt your
statements were worth pursuing in court. We have worked a fair amount of time
via email with that group helping to shut down web sites promoting sexual
abuse of horses and know their volunteer staff is an overworked but dedicated
lot who have jumped in on that and cc'd us with letters they mail to web
server admins.
And no, we won't bother to check dejanews because frankly, as far as we are
concerned we wouldn't care if they were running slots and crap tables in the
backroom as long as they help in the animal sexual abuse, and on that aspect
they have demonstrated their concern and dedication to us over the past year
quite clearly to our satisfaction. They even put up their abuse subpage on
this after we urged them to get more involved. They have forwarded to us on
several occasions, copies of email their volunteers have received from those
who run such sex sites depicting horses the IGA had shut down, they most
often included personal threats to their staff.
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>hors...@hotmail.com
> > >pro4a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
>Lets see some proof on this alleged incident. can you document your
>source? all i see is some secondhand information...and that can get
>addended to and blown all out of proportion.
>lets see some proof!
Re: >Subject: Re: Mare...killed (prove it!)
First, I think readers will appreciate not having everyone going off and
starting their own sub-threads on this, it makes following the original thread
more difficult and time consuming for everyone. I took your post and and
responding to it in the original thread.
Now as far as your request for the gruesomes, I will say it again for the
tenth time, we posted the author's email address with the article, which
group originated the article (IDA) and their telephone number as well as
their email address.
Again, we requested more details on the case for our web site, and had
received an email from David at the IDA on Friday asking us what we would
like them to forward on to us on this case.
Give it a rest already, it isn't even Monday yet so David has not even read
our reply. As soon, or when as we receive what ever David sends our way, we
will post it on our web site where the case is mentioned. David asked if we
wanted the newspaper clippings, so obviously it had appeared in a newspaper
or he wouldn't have asked if that was what we wanted.
Since went sent Stovall the same request email (via cc) we sent to David/IDA,
I am sure he rec'd the same reply we did in response- asking what would we
like them to forward on.
I am sure dealing with this insignificant issue about a case from last year
is not exactly high priority with David's time today, but when he has time
and sends the information it will be made available at that time.
While waiting on that..
If you read our long post that included a number of equine sexual abuse cases
complete with sources, you would have known these kinds of cases occur a lot
more frequently than you thought. Only a small percentage are ever caught or
prosecuted as there are rarely eye witnesses to the actual deed.
Now if you want to see the abuse, much of it against horses, being promoted
that hasn't been prosecuted yet, check out alta vista search. It also shows
the 2,000 pages the IGHA closed and the hundred or two we closed are a very
small percentage despite Stovall's surprise, or disbelief.
From our little web site search form, we added keywords;
zoophile bestiality
Here is what appears, and it is interesting that indexes of violence against
women *also* appear along with sex offender registries:
=================================
Ask AltaVistaTM a question. Or enter a few words in
AltaVista knows the answers to these questions:
Where can I find facts and resources about violence against women in the
United States?
Where can I find an online sex offender registry for the state of ?
AltaVista found 167390 Web pages for you.
Refine your search
zoophile bestiality - List of near matches related to zoophile bestiality
provided by RealNames.
1. Bizarre Pics...FREE!!!................................. bestiality
zoophile beastiality pics...FREE, zoophile,animal sex, farm sex, Free Pics
SNIP of 167,390 web pages and documents
Here's what keywords; bestiality +mare brings;
AltaVista found 515300 Web pages for you.
Refine your search
1. SharpFang's banners
This page contains a few stories about animals and people,
sometimes including sex between them. and if you came through a
keyword like 'bestiality
SNIP of 513,300 pages and documents.
Keywords;
bestiality +stallion
AltaVista found 353705 Web pages for you.
Keywords;
horse sex
AltaVista found 3894 Web pages for you
16.
SNIP
this is for people who love porn (and horses and goats and snakes...
SNIP
We hope this clues you in as to how many horses (and other animals) are
used/abused in this way for both private and commercial reasons. The HSUS is
already clued in, now they are going to go after this legislatively as an
animal sexual abuse issue. Mike and Pat
Deborah Stevenson
>pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> Can you say offhand what the penalty is in your state?, the above was the only
>> information we had for our law page.
>Nor right off hand (I did not look it up and it's late and I'm tired).
>But, oh, happy day! I am waiting for that first one to show up in a stack
>between, say, a murder one and an aggravated rape of a child. Which of
>the three do you think we should pay most attention to?
Heck, I'd even, since we're talking the grand old state of TN, balance it
against legal penalties for soring horses.
I can't say it gives me much comfort to think that, functionally speaking,
the state's apparently more worried about penile contact than mustard oil
contact.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Between a hard place and a rock in Champaign, IL, USA
Deborah Stevenson
>I remember IGHA/HorseAid! They cast their nets upon these waters a few
>years back and left with their collective tails tucked firmly between
>their legs, whining about the ingratitude of folks for having the
>audacity to question their motives. It seems that while they were
>asking folks to have their horses branded and pimping their various
>"services", they neglected to point out they were a FOR PROFIT
>organization. The late Barbara Cross took them to task for claiming to
>be registered in California when they apparently weren't and some
>outfit that was freeze branding horses for them publicly disassociated
>themselves from them on this forum because they claimed IGHA/HorseAid
>had neglected to pay them for their services. Anyone desiring to check
>it out can do a power search at <<http://www.dejanews.com>>, keyword:
>IGHA/HorseAid.
You forget they also, according to Robert Liotti, were prepared to support
him.
Their website currently makes some extremely nasty allegations about
an unnamed someone who looks to be Barbara Cross, now beyond reach of
defending herself. The fact that I could see no particular reason for the
inclusion of the commentary made it look all the more mean-spirited to me.
In point of fact, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing, as a
business, what they claim to do without quite owning up to its business
side. After all, the freeze-mark folks are also a business. But the
IGHA/HorseAid website continues to display a kind of perky lace-edged
venom that makes me very, very uncomfortable.
Fortunately, there's always HAHS.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Sticking with the tried and true in Champaign, IL, USA
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>
>Lets see some proof on this alleged incident. can you document your
>source? all i see is some secondhand information...and that can get
>addended to and blown all out of proportion.
>
>lets see some proof!
=Jan Flora Snow...@xyz.net wrote;
=March 1999 Horse & Rider, page 21.
=The article includes a baby picture of Button.
=Jan
Thanks Jan, but I am very soory, that will not be sufficient!
Mr Stovall/skeptic shall require the following *additional* information,
proof and sources for verification purposes.
Please provide them **immediately**:
1)The exact ISBN registration number for the Library of Congress publication
for this alleged magazine
2)The name, address, fax, cell, photo, blood type, shoe and underwear size of
the publisher of this alleged magazine.
3)To be certain the article has not been tampered with by an animal right's
group, or overlaid with an altered page, he shall require an original intact
print copy in a sealed plastic shrink wrapper be mailed to him from the
printer's plant personally by the publisher.
It should be sent together with a sworn, signed, notarized certificate of
mailing from a duly authorised federal agent or police captain who personally
witnessed the publisher insert said magazine into the US
mail system at a major branch.
If any of those involved in the mailing have even so much as thought about an
animal right's issue or group, browsed an animal right's magazine or web site
for any reason, they must be replaced with someone regular because that means
the article is tainted or biased.
4)Signed triplicate certificates from the horse owner testifying under oath,
and with video tape footage that yes, this did happen and the horse' name was
indeed; "Buttons", photos showing Buttons before and after, including the
grave site and the body being lowered into it should also be included and
certified by a duly authorised law enforcement official. In liew of burial,
photos of the cremation or loading into a suitable disposal or transport
vehicle can be substituted under the same terms.
Being entirely sarcastic of course ;) but nothing less will satisfy him,
fault will be found with any source anyone provides, don't fight it it's
alosing proposition even if the President of the AP wire service posts the
item. Mike and Pat
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>re: Association with IGHA/HorseAid.
>Congratulations! You've managed to get in bed with one of the most
>Tom Stovall CJF
Er Tom, are you always this cranky about everyone and everything? As we
stated before, we don't support *any* groups financially, nor do we have
anything to do with any of them, other than to use their forums, and contact
their staff etc. for our sexual abuse awareness/legislation efforts.
We don't care what your allegations are about any group, I am sure any group
you investigate has some dirt or something someone doesn't like somewhere.
The IGHA has proven to us their volunteers do take time and efforts to shut
down zoophile/bestiality abuse promoting web sites, so we forward any equine
related URLS to them for action. They also have a web site link on their
abuse page to our page which they kindly put up last summer. That is the
extent of our "bedding down" with their group.
Now that you read Jan posted that the "Buttons" mare sex abuse/dragging case
was published in the March 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine (Page 21),
that means you have to go and buy the magazine to verify it. Gee, you could
have saved your time and effort if you had simply called or emailed the
authors, or the DA's office number as provided in our first post, and asked
them earlier, as we suggested...
It would have taken the same effort on your part as it will to verify the
magazine article Jan provided. Or do you expect us to buy the magazine and
scan the article now and upload it to you as proof!
Hopefully, but not likely, you will be happy with that and joyous in the fact
that the mare is truly dead as posted. I gather the article may have some
photos of the deceased for you even. Now you can write that letter you didnt
the first time, to the Mississippi DA's office.
I have not located a web site for the magazine, so I suppose they don't have
one yet. Untill something else on this case comes along, or another case, I
think that about wraps this up.
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Stacey Curtis
debate...but the article cited in this thread (March H&R, pp. 21-22) is about a
yearling Shetland pony (named Buttons) in Arkansas who was stabbed as part of a
series of fourteen horse stabbings over a span of a few weeks in late 1998, in
which two horses died. Eight of the fourteen horses were owned by cops, strangely
enough.
There's an address to send contributions to add to a reward fund for info leading
up to the conviction of the person(s); mail me if you want it; I'm not going to
post it here because I'd probably get lumped in with the AR people. The case is
being handled by the Barling Police Department; 501.452.1550. It's most certainly
not the same thing as the Mississippi dragging case, though.
Btw, I'm not reporting on the case, I'm transcribing from the article, and I have
no proof of its accuracy, though it looks as legitimate as they come. H&R didn't
feel it necessary to include the case number...hm.... Oh, and also, I don't belong
to any AR groups, though I do occasionally drop a check in the mail to Best Friends
Animal Sanctuary (www.bestfriends.org). That's full disclosure, and note that I do
use my real name. It's stupid that I should feel compelled to make all these
disclaimers.
The strangest thing to me about all of this back and forth is this: we all know
that horse abuse happens. I think that we all think that it's bad. The AR people
are nuts, sure, but it seems strange to me that their reports of abuses (each of
which may or may not be real or exaggerated) aren't just met with cynicism.
Instead, they're met with blistering hostility. Is the big issue that they're
taking dollars from gullible people who may otherwise have contributed to more
legitimate, grassroots organizations? Or is it that they solicit money for worthy
causes, and then turn around and spend it on stupid things, like "free the animals"
literature or buckets of red paint?
(I tend to think that PR machines that make money don't take it away from other
groups...many people only reach for their checkbooks when slapped in the face with
a shocking plea...these people wouldn't have given money to "real" horse-helping
organizations, anyway, because they don't go out looking for worthy causes...they
just respond when they're individually sought out.)
Also, what's the deal with suspected AR groups asking people to write letters to
judges, police depts, etc., if nothing really happened there? What would they get
out of it? Or is the speculation that something DID happen there, but that the
people who are accused are actually innocent, and that all of the facts in the
press releases are false? Why would these people have been chosen as AR targets?
And for the most extreme skeptics: do you think there are any legitimate,
nationally-organized anti-abuse organizations that aren't AR fronts?
-Stacey (who hates "AR" groups, but who also hates overgeneralized hostility)
Jan Flora wrote:
> In article <horseguy-070...@lax-ts5-h2-47-128.ispmodems.net>,
> hors...@hotmail.com (a) wrote:
>
> >In article <7bkqfc$9o7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pro4a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> In article <36DD5BFC...@wt.net>,
> >> sto...@wt.net wrote:
> >>
> >> > >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
> >
> >
> >Lets see some proof on this alleged incident. can you document your
> >source? all i see is some secondhand information...and that can get
> >addended to and blown all out of proportion.
> >
> >lets see some proof!
>
> March 1999 Horse & Rider, page 21.
>
> The article includes a baby picture of Button.
>
> Jan
a
<scu...@netscape.com> wrote:
>I'm not taking sides here...I have problems with both sides in this frenzied
>debate..
(CUT HERE)
>The strangest thing to me about all of this back and forth is this: we all know
>that horse abuse happens. I think that we all think that it's bad. The AR
people
>are nuts, sure, but it seems strange to me that their reports of abuses
(each of
>which may or may not be real or exaggerated) aren't just met with cynicism.
>Instead, they're met with blistering hostility.
THANK you for this intelligent post Stacey..a breath of fresh air in an
otherwise stifling thread:)
I read the H&R article, and it was tragic..but a far cry from some of the
original statements of the HSUS post. in my 20 years with horses i have
seen and heard of many incidents that would make the hardest person
weep...
what sane person would NOT oppose animal abuse??? the trouble is that
there is no way to legislate the behavior of insane people.
I am saddened every time i read of the needless and brutal death of an
equine, but when i look out in my pasture and see my wonderful, apparently
happy horses i realize i am doing my part.
In fact, most of the abuse and tragic incidents i have alluded to are the
results of well-meaning, but ignorant people. so instead of spinning in
circles about the nutcases in the world, take time out to go and give your
horse a carrot..saddle up for a nice trail ride, donate to a college that
is studying colic (the number one killer of horses) or maybe a school that
gives riding to handicapped patients.
and thats all any of us can do as lovers of horses: provide the best care
possible, give them happy homes and try and do it all in a rational
manner.
C.M.Newell
>
>
>>re: Association with IGHA/HorseAid.
>
>
>>Congratulations! You've managed to get in bed with one of the most
>>Tom Stovall CJF
>
>Er Tom, are you always this cranky about everyone and everything? As we
>stated before, we don't support *any* groups financially, nor do we have
>anything to do with any of them, other than to use their forums, and contact
>their staff etc. for our sexual abuse awareness/legislation efforts.
>
>We don't care what your allegations are about any group, I am sure any group
>you investigate has some dirt or something someone doesn't like somewhere.
>The IGHA has proven to us their volunteers do take time and efforts to shut
>down zoophile/bestiality abuse promoting web sites, so we forward any equine
>related URLS to them for action. They also have a web site link on their
>abuse page to our page which they kindly put up last summer. That is the
>extent of our "bedding down" with their group.
>
>Now that you read Jan posted that the "Buttons" mare sex abuse/dragging case
>was published in the March 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine (Page 21),
>that means you have to go and buy the magazine to verify it. Gee, you could
>have saved your time and effort if you had simply called or emailed the
>authors, or the DA's office number as provided in our first post, and asked
>them earlier, as we suggested...
>
Actually, I believe the "Buttons case" mentioned in H&R is a
different one entirely--it is about a series of horse stabbings, and I
suspect it is entirely coincidental that the name is the same.
Jane H. Kilberg
(snipped parts)
>Now that you read Jan posted that the "Buttons" mare sex abuse/dragging case
>was published in the March 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine (Page 21),
>that means you have to go and buy the magazine to verify it.
>Hopefully, but not likely, you will be happy with that and joyous in the fact
>that the mare is truly dead as posted.
According to the H&R article, Buttons was injured but not dead. Of the 14
horse stabbings, two died.
>I gather the article may have some
>photos of the deceased for you even. Now you can write that letter you didnt
>the first time, to the Mississippi DA's office.
The stabbings took place in Barling and Fort Smith, Arkansas last year
between Nov. 19, 1998-December 2, 1998.
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Kirsty Hollingworth
: pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
:> Unfortunately true even tho it mentions scrapes and asphalt burns and having
:> to be given pain medication.
: So what? I can think of lots of ways for a horse to get some "road burn" without
: abuse being involved.
Horse at a yard I was helping at shyied, slipped and fell on sticky tarmac
one hot summers day. Had to get the vet out for that, doesn't mean horse
had been abused.
--
Kirsty Hollingworth <keh...@york.ac.uk>
Homepage at http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~keh105/
Studying at the University of York Computer Science Department
Joel B. Levin
> On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:27:28 GMT, pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>re: Association with IGHA/HorseAid.
> >
> >The IGHA has proven to us their volunteers do take time and efforts to shut
> >down zoophile/bestiality abuse promoting web sites, so we forward any equine
What I want to know is, who is this "we" the bozo keeps claiming to be, if
it's not, as the bozo says, IGHA/Horseaid?
"I wanna buy a ranch. With horsies."
-- Sprint PCS commercial
http://home1.gte.net/levinjb
Stacey Curtis
Express part. ;-)
I buy the Urban Legend explanation when a message comes from SuZ...@aol.com (bogus
name), but not so much when the info comes directly from an organization that
claims that this is their raison d'etre. If the poster is representing an
organization, I assume that they are attempting to fulfil an organizational goal in
posting the report, and not just wide-eyedly passing along a shocking story that
they heard.
I agree that it makes sense not to believe press release-type abuse stories because
of the fact that distributing false information in such reports is a widely-used
tactic by "AR" groups in order to yank tears and pad their coffers. However, I feel
that before I assume that someone is one of the "crazies," I should try to identify
a plausible motive that would make sense in identifying them as either legitimate
or illegitimate, in addition to simply noting a lack of detail in their report. In
this case, I don't see what an "AR" group stands to gain through a simple
letter-writing request with no monetary solicitation attached. What compounds my
confustion is that I do see how a legitimate organization might try to organize
such a campaign, and I do see how a legitimate organization might be less then
perfect with their documentation (hell, CNN and ABCnews often are, too).
Maybe I'm just naive; maybe the AR groups are a lot more subtle and duplicitous
than I give them credit for, but I'm just not able to add up what might they get
out of posting this kind of stuff if they don't ask for money or members at the
same time.
Maybe a good retort to questionable posters could be "hey, submit your info to
[well-known, reputable org] for evaluation if you want member action taken." I just
hate all this mud-flinging. Ech.
Just looked up http://www.chicweb.com/hahs/. They look great; thanks!
-Stacey
Deborah Stevenson wrote:
> In <36E3E136...@netscape.com> Stacey Curtis <scu...@netscape.com> writes:
>
> >The strangest thing to me about all of this back and forth is this: we all
> >know that horse abuse happens. I think that we all think that it's bad.
>
> Though we don't all agree where it lies, which can be a sticking point.
>
> >The AR
> >people are nuts, sure, but it seems strange to me that their reports of
> >abuses (each of which may or may not be real or exaggerated) aren't just
> >met with cynicism. Instead, they're met with blistering hostility.
>
> My particular take runs in this direction: I would like to take just
> about everybody who posts this sort of action alert thing aside beforehand
> and coach them on rhetoric :-). All you are here is words. Consider them
> carefully. Consider the difference between demonstrating your own
> feelings and opinion and conveying the information that will convince
> outsiders to share them. That's a *huge* difference.
>
> It's also a huge difference that many people desirous of action don't seem
> to grasp. It's the difference, IMHO, between the reaction some posters
> seeking assistance get and those of others--not all are met with the
> skepticism or hostility you speak of.
>
> I don't know whether these folks are AR or not--I think that term gets
> thrown around rather loosely here sometimes. It's clear that their
> priorities aren't the same as mine, but that doesn't mean some of them
> wouldn't overlap. What I'd need before I acted on those overlapping
> priorities was a commitment to backing things up that I haven't seen yet.
> When I write a letter or donate money, it damn well means something, and I
> don't dilute its worth by joining in a campaign that I think is dooming
> itself through its own approach. I don't do it just because somebody has
> an anecdote and an emotional response. I think it's more than fair to ask
> for something beyond that, and I get wary of people who call for action
> yet who aren't prepared to redress the lack.
>
> > Is the big issue that they're
> >taking dollars from gullible people who may otherwise have contributed to more
> >legitimate, grassroots organizations? Or is it that they solicit money for
> >worthy causes, and then turn around and spend it on stupid things, like
> >"free the animals" literature or buckets of red paint?
>
> My personal responses don't focus so much on those concerns as on
> "sympathy fatigue" and erosion of credibility. I would say that the
> reason for skepticism such posts receive is directly related to the
> history of such posts. Each additional poorly supported post lowers the
> standard of the genre and hampers all future posts with the reputation of
> the group. Think of it as the thematic parallel to webtv, or Microsoft
> Outlook Express ;-).
>
> >Also, what's the deal with suspected AR groups asking people to write letters
> >to judges, police depts, etc., if nothing really happened there? What
> >would they get out of it? Or is the speculation that something DID happen
> >there, but that the people who are accused are actually innocent, and
> >that all of the facts in the press releases are false? Why would these
> >people have been chosen as AR targets?
>
> You're missing a big parallel--Craig Shergold, virus hoaxes, and other ULs
> :-). The belief that something has happened, or that something has
> happened the way you heard it, is enough for people to consider something
> true and act on it by "helpfully" alerting people. There's no meanness
> involved in those, after all. (Sometimes there's also an incident that
> turns into a story rather different than its actuality. I just heard a
> radio news report about a project I was involved in and I didn't recognize
> the project as ours :-).)
>
> I'm not personally saying that the Buttons incident didn't happen as
> described--I am, however, not swayed merely by the belief of somebody
> else, whom I have no knowledge of, that it did, any more than I'd believe
> a virus warning or a send-postcards-to-the-sick-kid post just because
> somebody else did. The posters seemed to have some specific desired
> goals--for readers to write letters to the Attorney General of
> Mississippi--IOW, they want me to do something :-). Yet now it looks like
> they also want me to look for the supporting information myself as well
> as do what they want in writing a letter. It also looks like they have
> confused this case with the one in Horse & Rider, which is apparently in a
> different state, which again makes me think that what they've got is their
> own belief rather than independent facts about the case.
>
> So based on pro_animal's posts I could write a lovely letter to
> Mississippi about a totally unrelated case, which would have no effect
> whatsoever in Mississippi except perhaps to mark me as a crackpot who
> doesn't check her facts and whose future letters therefore are completely
> ignorable; it would certainly waste my time. If they had approached their
> posts differently, providing the necessary information in the first place
> or making clear they didn't know whether this was true or not but were
> merely passing on the plea, they might have instead gotten a crackerjack
> letter out of me and perhaps even additional support.
>
> Writing to persuade is kind of like horse training--make the thing you
> want easy and the thing you don't want hard :-). Most calls to action
> unfortunately make their desired action much harder than it has to be, and
> they lose thereby.
>
> So I'm still sticking with HAHS.
>
> Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
> Longwinded in Champaign, IL, USA
Samantha Jordan
it. Information would be appreciated.
Samantha posted on March 6th:
"Do you know where this alleged incident took place? I was unable to
find any reference to it in last years Mississippi papers."
Samantha
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
<snip>
>
> I posted last week what I'll call; "The first post", it was simply a request
> for people to contact the Mississippi Attorney General's office about the case
> and asking them to pursue it further, it had included a sample letter to send.
> That was the case in which the news item we rec'd, and then re-posted about a
> mare who was sexually abused and then dragged to death. Here below is the post
> in part with the original sender's email address and forum in which it was
> posted;
>
> ==================================
>
> The following news item and request to contact Mike Moore ( State Attorney
> General) regarding a mare who was sexually assaulted and then dragged to death
> in Mississippi was posted on another forum by IDA.
>
> The defendants were released, and the state has no laws against sexual abuse
> of animals. Here is a list of each state's law;
>
> http://members.aol.com/animalsav/laws.html
>
> People certainly can at least take 2 minutes to send the Mississippi state
> SNIP
> We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
> financially support any animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
> SNIP
> http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
>
> Your hosts,
> Mike and Pat
<snip>
Deborah Stevenson
>I buy the Urban Legend explanation when a message comes from SuZ...@aol.com
>(bogus name), but not so much when the info comes directly from an
>organization that claims that this is their raison d'etre. If the poster
>is representing an organization, I assume that they are attempting to
>fulfil an organizational goal in posting the report, and not just
>wide-eyedly passing along a shocking story that they heard.
Except that many people doing the latter believe that they're doing the
former. Heck, check DejaNews for Real Names posting helpful virus
warnings and so on. I've had helpful police officers tell me urban
legends as truth. I've had teachers tell urban legends as truth in
support of a point. My father completely believed that kids had
gotten razor blades in Halloween candy and made a point of protecting
me from a menace that hadn't ever actually existed ;-). Then we can get
into accusations of child sexual abuse, not irrelevant here, in which
people wreck the lives of innocent individuals in complete faith that
they're right.
I think you're conceiving of dichotomies between the treatment of legend
and fact that don't exist in conveyance, which is why the former are
treated as the latter. I mean, the nature of urban legends is often to
fulfill a didactic goal anyway, so they're hardly pointless. I think it
*extremely* unlikely that people are willfully lying, but I don't think
that's the point. At least it's not for me.
I work with professional storytellers; I see how that spills over
into private life ;-). This is related to the people-stink-as-witnesses
problem--we are just generally poor at leaving reality alone rather than
rearranging it, totally unconscious of what we're doing, into a more
fitting shape. And that's a real problem, IMHO, when you're asking people
to act on the results, and act on it by getting involved with the legal
process. It needs more basis than a forwarded post, and while some
people's forwards may have more credibility than others based on past
performance, I wouldn't go to my congresscritter based on an unsupported
comment from anybody I know on the 'net or off it, and I'd never expect
them to do so either.
>In
>this case, I don't see what an "AR" group stands to gain through a simple
>letter-writing request with no monetary solicitation attached.
I have different responses to this statement, depending on the
implications of your statement :-). It gains what any organization gains
in a protest--a feeling of purpose, an increased status, a
gathering of more supporters that will be useful later, and, if things go
their way, their desired goal. This is true whether they've got a factual
basis for the claims or not. Again, what do people gain when they try to
send an adult to prison for sexual abuse that adult didn't commit? They
think they're doing right, for a start, and then there are some other
interesting psychological and cultural effects as well. In other words, I
think there are plenty of rewards for these sorts of campaigns, whether
justified or unjustified; they're just of a sort often not acknowledged.
To oversimplify, I think you're thinking either they're malicious or
they're right. I'm thinking that most such reports are neither ;-).
>What compounds my
>confustion is that I do see how a legitimate organization might try to organize
>such a campaign, and I do see how a legitimate organization might be less then
>perfect with their documentation (hell, CNN and ABCnews often are, too).
I think maybe you're concerned with a different project than I am. For
me, I'm judging "legitimacy" as in "likelihood of focusing energies
intelligently and economically in areas I consider useful." There are
lots of perfectly sincere associations that don't fall into that category.
It sounds like maybe you're focusing on the question of whether or not
such posters could be a front for something else--I haven't even gotten
that far, because most of them haven't convinced me they're working
capably to achieve what they *say* they want to achieve, let alone any
clandestine secret goals :-).
>Maybe I'm just naive; maybe the AR groups are a lot more subtle and duplicitous
>than I give them credit for, but I'm just not able to add up what might they
>get out of posting this kind of stuff if they don't ask for money or
>members at the same time.
Heck, if Mike and Pat are reading this, maybe they can answer my version
of this question. It looks to me like you didn't have facts about these
cases at your command but simply passed on information from somebody else
without checking it. What did you hope to get out of it? I've already
slanted the response so I'll go ahead and guess--they wanted people to
support them in their general cause and, specifically, in these cases that
they completely believe to exist despite their not having information
themselves.
I have no objection to those motives. They just aren't enough to support
the legitimacy of the actual claims within the call to action. That
requires some external support that's not yet arrived at my server. And
sure, I could go hunt for it, but as yet I simply haven't heard enough
that makes me want to take the time away from other focuses of my energy.
It behooves the people who want the outcome to do the work to make it
possible. It's sort of like the Usenet lawsuit threats where somebody
sends you email telling you to call his lawyer--hey, if you're going to
sue me, I'm not paying for the phone call :-).
>Maybe a good retort to questionable posters could be "hey, submit your info to
>[well-known, reputable org] for evaluation if you want member action taken."
>I just hate all this mud-flinging. Ech.
Except I think that's what happened--people said submit your info here.
It turned out, as far as I can tell, they really didn't have any but were
just passing something along. IMHO, they should have said that up front.
If I were them, and I had gotten questioned as a result of not having
made that clear, I'd acknowledge that my emotional involvement in the
matter had moved quicker than my knowledge and worked to expand the
latter, rather than questioning the notion of questioning itself.
>Just looked up http://www.chicweb.com/hahs/. They look great; thanks!
They're the classic model everybody else should be like :-).
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Windier as the day goes on in Champaign, IL, USA
Tom Stovall
re: "March 1999 Horse & Rider, page 21. The article includes a baby
picture of Button..." -Jan Flora
>Thanks Jan, but I am very soory, that will not be sufficient!
>Mr Stovall/skeptic shall require the following *additional* >information, proof and sources for verification purposes.
> Please provide them **immediately**:...
Why would Ms. Flora concern herself with attempting to substantiate your
claim? Had you bothered to read your own propaganda, you might have
found that Ms. Flora's post concerned a pony called "Button" that was
survived a stabbing incident in Arkansas, not a mare named "Buttons"
Which you claimed was the victim of bestiality and killed in
Mississippi. As such, this incident was totally unrelated to your
allegations - yet, you attempted to use it as "proof" of your
allegations. Congratulations, you just got caught trying to bullshit
the troops.
You amaze me! You made an allegation of bestiality which you claimed
ended in the death of a mare and asked folks to write the attorney
general of Mississippi based on your press release. On my questioning
the nonexistence of verifiable sources relative to your still-
unsubstantiated press release regarding bestiality, you attempted to
disclaim responsibility for the factual content of your press release
while maintaining it was factual. Something to the effect of it's
being, "good enough" for you.
It seems your Mississippi press release wasn't "good enough" for some
folks and you now have become painfully aware of what Mr. Lincoln had in
mind about fooling folks in terms of totality and time.
In the future, no matter how good it sounds or how much you may feel the
end justifies the means, you'd better damn sure check your sources when
you post something asking folks to carry your cudgel. Since you got
caught trying to bullshit the troops, you may feel somewhat foolish -
but think how much more foolish anyone must feel who was silly enough to
write the Attorney General of Mississippi on the basis of your fantasy
press release - a press release you called a "news item" and didn't
bother to check because it was "good enough."
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
Preemptive defense? When I hit you first.
Tom Stovall
>Er Tom, are you always this cranky about everyone and everything?...
With similar logic, I might ask, "Are you still fucking the regiment?"
>As we stated before, we don't support *any* groups financially, nor do >we have anything to do with any of them, other than to use their >forums, and contact their staff etc. for our sexual abuse >awareness/legislation efforts...
Them as lays down with dogs, gets up with fleas. Count on it.
>Now that you read Jan posted that the "Buttons" mare sex abuse/dragging >case was published in the March 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine >(Page 21), that means you have to go and buy the magazine to verify >it...
Ms. Flora didn't post anything relative to a "sex abuse/dragging case.
>Gee, you could have saved your time and effort if you had simply called >or emailed the authors, or the DA's office number as provided in our >first post, and asked them earlier, as we suggested...
Without checking? Why would I want to do something stupid?
>It would have taken the same effort on your part as it will to verify
>the magazine article Jan provided. Or do you expect us to buy the >magazine and scan the article now and upload it to you as proof!...
I hate to interrupt a good gloat with a dash of reality, but you might
consider reading the article yourselves.
>Hopefully, but not likely, you will be happy with that and joyous in >the fact that the mare is truly dead as posted...
"Truly...?" You wouldn't know "truly" if it latched on to your cojones
and shook like a wet dog.
>I gather the article may have some photos of the deceased for you even. >Now you can write that letter you didn't the first time, to the >Mississippi DA's office...
I think I'll pass.
>I have not located a web site for the magazine, so I suppose they >don't have one yet. Untill something else on this case comes along, or >another case, I think that about wraps this up...
If so, it's probably not quite like you hoped, but perhaps you've leaned
that posting bullshit will not further your cause. Then again, maybe
not.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
Farriery is work therapy for the morally handicapped.
Tom Stovall
re: Dreams of glory and shutting down websites. "Two thousand? You're
kidding, right?"...-TS
>
>Hmmm, no, why would anyone "kid" about that?...
Self-aggrandizement.
[...]
>We became quite friendly with Neil, an administrator on Tripod, we >would search his web server for zoophile related keywords, forward the >list of URLS to him and he shut them down. Neil was so sick of these >XXX rated web sites damaging their family oriented services, that he >was and is happy we help them out by providing the URLS...
An ISP can certainly control what's on his server and if folks don't
like his exercise of control, they can simply go someplace else. Still,
censorship - and censors - suck.
>So no, 2,000 sites devoted to this are a drop in the bucket and if you >do a dejanews search for any of the usual keywords you will notice the >index pulls up documents containing them numbering into six figures...
Oops! The same search would find YOURS.
re: IGHA/HorseAid. "I thought IGHA/HorseAid was a scam then, I think
it's a scam now..." -TS
>
>We sent them your post, and hope for your sake there is a 100% truth to >your statements or you may hear from their lawyers this week if they >felt your statements were worth pursuing in court...
Thanks for your concern, but the First Amendment beat you to it.
>We have worked a fair amount of time via email with that group helping >to shut down web sites promoting sexual abuse of horses and know their
>volunteer staff is an overworked but dedicated lot who have jumped in
>on that and cc'd us with letters they mail to web server admins.
To reiterate: censorship and censors suck.
>And no, we won't bother to check dejanews because frankly, as far as we >are concerned we wouldn't care if they were running slots and crap >tables in the backroom as long as they help in the animal sexual abuse, >and on that aspect they have demonstrated their concern and dedication >to us over the past year quite clearly to our satisfaction...
Since you were kind enough to express concern about the possibility of
my impending legal problems, might I return the favor by being so bold
as to wonder aloud if you've discussed the ramifications of your evident
fixation with bestiality, as well as such terms as "latency",
repression", and "prurient interest" with a health care professional?
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"I'm a farrier." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."
C.M.Newell
folks thinking it would be "cute" if everyone thought their horses
"eloped". So they posted two "missing horse" messages to the AOL Arab
board. If they'd appeared together, it *might* have clued people in,
but the second post took *hours* to show up. Meanwhile, many people,
myself included, were horrified that a mare belonging to someone we
"knew" had been stolen. (The owner is usually a very levelheaded,
trustworthy poster, and her "missing horse" post was written quite
seriously, style-wise.) So a lot of folks, being helpful, copied the
post to mailing lists, newsgroups, and websites.
Before the principals realized what was happening, the missing
horse post was all over the internet...
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
> picture of Button..." -Jan Flora
> Why would Ms. Flora concern herself with attempting to substantiate your
> claim?
We don't know, shouldn't you be asking her? why don't you ask her? maybe she
wanted to get to the bottom of the case. Some, like Jan here *do* actually
care about animals!
> Had you bothered to read your own propaganda, you might have
> found that Ms. Flora's post concerned a pony called "Button" that was
> survived a stabbing incident in Arkansas, not a mare named "Buttons"
Well.... the only problem with your logic there Tom, is this below was all
that Jan posted (that we saw) there were no details at all other than mention
of a magazine article and a co-incidental sounding name. "Button" v/s
"Buttons" I am sure everyone thought at first this was in reference to the
bestiality/dragging case of a mare named; "Buttons"
We certainly were not aware of another case involving stabbings that included
a mare named "Button" untill Jan posted it. We don't read "Horse & Rider"
magazine. =========================================================== In
article <horseguy-070...@lax-ts5-h2-47-128.ispmodems.net>,
hors...@hotmail.com (a) wrote:
>In article <7bkqfc$9o7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pro4a...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <36DD5BFC...@wt.net>,
>> sto...@wt.net wrote:
>>
>> > >This spring, the lifeless body of Buttons, a young mare...
>Lets see some proof on this alleged incident. can you document your
>source? all i see is some secondhand information...and that can get
>addended to and blown all out of proportion.
>
>lets see some proof!
March 1999 Horse & Rider, page 21.
The article includes a baby picture of Button.
Jan
================
> As such, this incident was totally unrelated to your
> allegations - yet, you attempted to use it as "proof" of your
> allegations. Congratulations, you just got caught trying to bullshit
> the troops.
Well... we and everyone else realised that after a bit, everyone had only
Jan's reply post to go by. No one here is trying to bullshit anyone but you.
> You amaze me! You made an allegation of bestiality which you claimed
> ended in the death of a mare and asked folks to write the attorney
> general of Mississippi based on your press release.
No, you amaze us in how you have ranted and raved on this for two weeks
now.
And again, the article was not "our" press release, it was the IDA's item.
> the nonexistence of verifiable sources relative to your still-
Maybe you should phone or fax this "nonexisting" person below, this is the
specific person who is the one actually handling *the* supposed
"nonexisting" case involving Button(S) the mare who was sexually abused and
dragged to death in Mississippi. Information comes curtesy of David at the IDA
who forwarded this to us today as per our request on Friday;
> David at IDA wrote in part:
> The person that is working on this case is in Mississippi and she has all
> of the info on it, however she doesnt have an email address however you
> could fax her/call her/write her for more info on this. this is her info
> Doll Stanley-Branscum
> Route 1 box 122-A
> Granada, MS 38901
> (601) 237-4382 phone
> (601) 237-4093 fax
You may as well call, or fax Tom, because you won't accept anything less than
the words of the actual person who is handling this case. A hint; try not to
let your attitude,rudeness, beligerance and hostility go forth over the
phone, or don't be surprised if he or she hangs up on you. It is not clear if
this is a business/work number or a home number so we have no idea the best
time to call. We did tell David we would post what ever he sent for
information, so it would seem to be okay to post the numbers.
Mike
> In the future, no matter how good it sounds or how much you may feel the
> end justifies the means, you'd better damn sure check your sources when
> you post something asking folks to carry your cudgel.
No Tom, in the future we will post what the original material has in it, if
that is not to your personal satisfaction, then put our messages on ignore
and get on with your life.
Well actually, *you* were the one who was caught trying to BS people here, and
now that the actual person who is handling the case can be contacted by anyone
from here and the case verified.
We will await your apology post here
> press release - a press release you called a "news item" and didn't
> bother to check because it was "good enough."
It was, and is from a reliable source, and the information it contained was
good enough for our purposes- simply as example cases on our web site showing
some of the scope of animal sexual abuse. Just the fact that we were sent the
person's (I assume investigator's) contact information who is working *On
this case* should tell you there *is* such a case.
If there were no such case, we wouldn't have been sent the contact information
now would we?!
Hey, You wouldn't even bother calling or emailing the author of the
article (we provided them in the posts) so if it wasn't good enough or
important enough for you, I suppose that was your problem :)
No sir, it appears your only interest for the past two weeks was just to
argue for argument's sake.
Meanwhile... a dead mare who could have used people's letters to the DA's
office about the case, were not mailed off, that is due to your direct action
and we hope you are proud of yourself. So if those responsible, get off with
little to no punishment you can thank yourself for having let them off the
hook to possibly repeat this with someone else's animal. Mike and Pat
Lorie
trailer. It says that the *eye witnesses* saw blood spraying from the
horse's feet, and that flesh around the feet was ripped and hanging down;
but the vet only found/treated abrasions on the hocks. I can't imagine
_any_ vet not noticing shredded flesh --- or investigators not noticing any
scars --- or everyone associated with this incident (except the *witnesses*)
being involved in a cover up. Wounds such as the ones described would be
_very_ hard to cover up from the press (who _love_ these kinds of stories on
a slow news day).
I've loaded enough unwilling horses to know how easy it would be for one
such critter to fall back onto its hocks --- and if the surface was asphalt
or gravel that would result in cuts and abrasions. The *build-up* of the
story certainly didn't hold out through to the end.
I also re-read the two tales of Buttons. The first was a *call to action*
and included a sample letter that we should write to the MS State Attorney
General --- reminding him that his state doesn't have any laws against
bestiality and asking him to overstep the jurisdiction of the city/county DA
who determined that the case couldn't/shouldn't be prosecuted by assuming
the investigation through his own office. Only the first post included
contact information for the AG, the rest only offer info to contact the
group/person behind the campaign. And not an e-mail address or URL, but a
phone # that would be long distance for most reading the posts. It was also
mentioned that these two posts were re-posted from another group, I haven't
figured out which group that might have been. But that's only a tiny
detail.
Something that was glossed over in the posts was that the case of Buttons is
nearly a year old. And that no evidence of sexual abuse was found (though
that did come out later).
I went into this little review thinking that maybe this story was a
compilation of facts from various abuse stories --- thinking that it seemed
highly coincidental that there would be two cases involving young equines
named Button/Buttons. I can't answer that. I _believe_ the story of the
horses being stabbed in AR --- we discussed this a few months back, but
without the histrionics and narrative. Maybe that's the key: when an abuse
case _happens_ mention it to the group as the news comes across the wire, so
to speak. Not a year later when there are no reliable news sources for
interested people (like the original poster of the incident) to get
additional information from (crusade cohorts don't count as reliable
sources).
With regards to the issue of the original poster of the Buttons report,
he/she has stated that his/her intent is to put an end to the sexual abuse
of horses more than the general abuse of horses, and to shut down related
web sites. Makes me wonder what would happen if someone posted a web site
with a photo series to go along with the recently posted instructions on
sheath cleaning. But that's just my cynicism creeping in...
Lorie
*New Arista breeches now on order -- in men's and women's sizes!
*Custom coolers, dress sheets, turnout rugs, and more from Jack's Mfg. now
available.
www.tackandapparel.com/
Lorie
<7c20gj$97p$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Meanwhile... a dead mare who could have used people's letters to the DA's
>office about the case, were not mailed off, that is due to your direct
action
>and we hope you are proud of yourself. So if those responsible, get off
with
>little to no punishment you can thank yourself for having let them off the
>hook to possibly repeat this with someone else's animal. Mike and Pat
Dead is dead. Our response, or lack thereof, won't change matters for the
horse --- maybe horses in the future, but not Buttons. And Tom's
questioning of your posts isn't going to prevent someone else from
responding to your requests. He may be persuasive, but even he isn't _that_
good (no offense, Tom). If anything, your responses to Tom's (and
everyone's) posts have given readers more background info to use in their
own decision making processes.
Tom Stovall
re: "Why would Ms. Flora concern herself with attempting to substantiate
your claim?..."
>We don't know, shouldn't you be asking her?
She made no effort to verify your claim, she pointed out the location of
an article in H&R which you - without reading the article - mistakenly
assumed was some sort of verification.
re: "Had you bothered to read your own propaganda, you might have
found that Ms. Flora's post concerned a pony called "Button" that was
survived a stabbing incident in Arkansas, not a mare named
"Buttons"...-TS
> Well.... the only problem with your logic there Tom, is this below >was all that Jan posted (that we saw) there were no details at all >other than mention of a magazine article and a co-incidental sounding >name. "Button" v/s "Buttons" I am sure everyone thought at first this >was in reference to the bestiality/dragging case of a mare named; >"Buttons"...
You don't speak for everyone, just yourself. And, not everyone is as
easily fooled as you are.
>We certainly were not aware of another case involving stabbings that
>included a mare named "Button" untill Jan posted it. We don't read >"Horse & Rider" magazine...
It might be advisable to start reading H&R BEFORE attempting to use them
in support of your claims.
re: "As such, this incident was totally unrelated to your
allegations - yet, you attempted to use it as "proof" of your
allegations. Congratulations, you just got caught trying to bullshit
the troops..." -TS
>Well... we and everyone else realised that after a bit, everyone had >only Jan's reply post to go by...
Correction: you had the H&R article to go by, but you lacked the
integrity necessary to check it out. Ms. Flora is not responsible for
your silly presumptions or failure to check your sources.
>No one here is trying to bullshit anyone but you...
You got caught trying to use an H&R article you didn't even bother to
read as "proof" of something unrelated, but I'm trying to bullshit
folks?
re: "You amaze me! You made an allegation of bestiality which you
claimed ended in the death of a mare and asked folks to write the
Attorney General of Mississippi based on your press release..."-TS
>No, you amaze us in how you have ranted and raved on this for two weeks
>now.
What part of "you lied and your credibility died" don't your understand?
>And again, the article was not "our" press release, it was the IDA's >item...
You posted it as a "news item", it's content was your responsibility.
re: "The nonexistence of verifiable sources..." -TS
>Maybe you should phone or fax this "nonexisting" person below, this is >the specific person who is the one actually handling *the* supposed
>"nonexisting" case involving Button(S) the mare who was sexually >abused and dragged to death in Mississippi...
Given your obvious gullibility, you may find this difficult to
understand, but posting the telephone/fax number of some unknown entity
in Mississippi, whom you claim is "handling" the alleged bestiality and
inhumane killing of a mare in Mississippi is absurdly ludicrous.
Anybody can and will say anything. On the other hand, most likely, if
the incident happened, it made the papers. If it made the papers,
simply post - on this forum - the name of the paper, name of the
article, and the date it appeared. Even if the incident didn't make the
paper, if someone was arrested, a case number exists. If it happened,
post - on this forum - the political jurisdiction and the case number.
>You may as well call, or fax Tom, because you won't accept anything >less than the words of the actual person who is handling this case...
Wrong. I'm not quite as gullible as yourself: I won't accept anything
but an independently verifiable source that the alleged incident
actually occurred. If it happened as you claim, a case number exists.
Without the case number, all your pleas to call folks who are supposedly
"handling the case" are as meaningless as frog flatulence. Post the
case number!
re: "In the future, no matter how good it sounds or how much you may
feel the end justifies the means, you'd better damn sure check your
sources when you post something asking folks to carry your cudgel..."
-TS
>No Tom, in the future we will post what the original material has in >it, if that is not to your personal satisfaction, then put our messages >on ignore and get on with your life...
Post what you will, so will I. If you fail to cite verifiable sources
in your propaganda, I'll probably point out that you're trying to
bullshit the troops again.
>Well actually, *you* were the one who was caught trying to BS people
>here, and now that the actual person who is handling the case can be >contacted by anyone from here and the case verified...
Spare me any more meaningless nonsense about an "actual person." Case
number?
>We will await your apology post here...
Hold your breath until it comes.
re: "You posted a press release - a press release you called a 'news
item' and didn't bother to check because it was 'good enough'..." -TS
>It was, and is from a reliable source, and the information it contained >was good enough for our purposes...
Fantasy is apparently "good enough" for your purposes.
>Meanwhile... a dead mare...
Until you demonstrate the existence of the mare, she exists only in your
imagination.
>who could have used people's letters to the DA's office about the >case...
How exactly could an allegedly dead mare "use" anyone's letters?
>were not mailed off, that is due to your direct action and we hope you >are proud of yourself...
Why would anybody be stupid enough to mail a letter to a DA based on a
press release posted by someone who admittedly doesn't check his sources
when the story is "good enough?"
>So if those responsible, get off with little to no punishment you can >thank yourself for having let them off the hook to possibly repeat this >with someone else's animal...
Then again, if the incident actually occurred - and I have no reason to
believe it did - and if you'd bothered to post a case number instead of
whining about my questioning your press release, the DA might have
gotten a ton of mail.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"There's a sucker born every minute." -Phineas T. Barnum
Bill Kambic
> I just re-read the post about the mustang mare that was dragged behind a
> trailer. It says that the *eye witnesses* saw blood spraying from the
> horse's feet, and that flesh around the feet was ripped and hanging down;
> but the vet only found/treated abrasions on the hocks. I can't imagine
> _any_ vet not noticing shredded flesh --- or investigators not noticing any
> scars --- <balance snipped for brevity>
Could it be possible that the witnesses did not see what they thought they saw?
Eye witness testimony is dramatic as Hell but one of the MOST inaccurate types
on the Planet. Unless you are a died in the wool X-Files fan, the credibility
nod has to go to the vet and investigators who physically examined the horse.
> I've loaded enough unwilling horses to know how easy it would be for one
> such critter to fall back onto its hocks ---<balance snipped for brevity>
Stories of mishaps that are neat, clean and totally internally consistent are
frequently classed at "creative fiction." When each and every loose end is
neatly tied up, look for the item causing the dead fish smell.
> I also re-read the two tales of Buttons. The first was a *call to action*
> and included a sample letter that we should write to the MS State Attorney
> General --- reminding him that his state doesn't have any laws against
> bestiality and asking him to overstep the jurisdiction of the city/county DA
> who determined that the case couldn't/shouldn't be prosecuted by assuming
> the investigation through his own office. Only the first post included
> contact information for the AG, the rest only offer info to contact the
> group/person behind the campaign. And not an e-mail address or URL, but a
> phone # that would be long distance for most reading the posts. It was also
> mentioned that these two posts were re-posted from another group, I haven't
> figured out which group that might have been. But that's only a tiny
> detail.
A "peaceful assembly to petition the government for a redress of grievances" is
a Constitutional right, just like freedom of expression. The fact that that the
"assembly" is by mail, e-mail, or any other peaceful fashion is irrelevant. If
you want to contact MS state officials, feel free to do so. Just have the
courtesy to speak from fact (at least as best you know it). These people have
enough to do without wading through a bunch of screaming, hysterical polemics.
> Something that was glossed over in the posts was that the case of Buttons is
> nearly a year old. And that no evidence of sexual abuse was found (though
> that did come out later).
>
> I went into this little review thinking that maybe this story was a
> compilation of facts from various abuse stories --- thinking that it seemed
> highly coincidental that there would be two cases involving young equines
> named Button/Buttons. I can't answer that. I _believe_ the story of the
> horses being stabbed in AR --- we discussed this a few months back, but
> without the histrionics and narrative. Maybe that's the key: when an abuse
> case _happens_ mention it to the group as the news comes across the wire, so
> to speak. Not a year later when there are no reliable news sources for
> interested people (like the original poster of the incident) to get
> additional information from (crusade cohorts don't count as reliable
> sources).
When something seems to good to be true, it usually is!<g>
> With regards to the issue of the original poster of the Buttons report,
> he/she has stated that his/her intent is to put an end to the sexual abuse
> of horses more than the general abuse of horses, and to shut down related
> web sites. Makes me wonder what would happen if someone posted a web site
> with a photo series to go along with the recently posted instructions on
> sheath cleaning. But that's just my cynicism creeping in...
You are wise to follow Diogenes!<g> While this sort of conduct is
reprehensible, I would rather write to MS officials regarding the systematic
abuse of TWH's in shows in the state. Bestiality is disgusting; mustard oil
scars and pressure shoeing cripples..
Samantha Jordan
>
> Lorie wrote:
>
> > I just re-read the post about the mustang mare that was dragged behind a
> > trailer. It says that the *eye witnesses* saw blood spraying from the
> > horse's feet, and that flesh around the feet was ripped and hanging down;
> > but the vet only found/treated abrasions on the hocks. I can't imagine
> > _any_ vet not noticing shredded flesh --- or investigators not noticing any
> > scars --- <balance snipped for brevity>
>
> Could it be possible that the witnesses did not see what they thought they saw?
> Eye witness testimony is dramatic as Hell but one of the MOST inaccurate types
> on the Planet. Unless you are a died in the wool X-Files fan, the credibility
> nod has to go to the vet and investigators who physically examined the horse.
>
> > I've loaded enough unwilling horses to know how easy it would be for one
> > such critter to fall back onto its hocks ---<balance snipped for brevity>
The acct. also mentioned that there were streaks of blood on the ground
for over 100ft. **IF** that report is true I hope that it gets duly
noted at any trial that occurs. Accidents happen, however they don't
often create 100ft streaks of blood on the asphalt. ick
Samantha
> Stories of mishaps that are neat, clean and totally internally consistent are
> frequently classed at "creative fiction." When each and every loose end is
> neatly tied up, look for the item causing the dead fish smell.
<snip>
Bill Kambic
> The acct. also mentioned that there were streaks of blood on the ground
> for over 100ft. **IF** that report is true I hope that it gets duly
> noted at any trial that occurs. Accidents happen, however they don't
> often create 100ft streaks of blood on the asphalt. ick
I presume that if an investigation was done the results will be presented at whatever
trial might result. The biggest "if" here is the one you have noted!<g>
It is always dangerous to take your facts from newspapers. Or, as Mark Twain one
said, "I never let facts get in the way of a good story."
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>Meanwhile... a dead mare who could have used people's letters to the DA's
>office about the case, were not mailed off, that is due to your direct
action
>and we hope you are proud of yourself. So if those responsible, get off
with
>little to no punishment you can thank yourself for having let them off the
>Lorie posted:
>Dead is dead. Our response, or lack thereof, won't change matters for the
>horse --- maybe horses in the future, but not Buttons.
That is true, but if those responsible are either given a slap on the wrist
or just probabtion, they are then free to repeat this with someone else's
horse because they know no one is going to do anything *if* they get caught,
and next time they could take steps to ensure they won't be caught after
having learned what they did the first time around wrong that got them
caught.
Knowlege that the case happened to someone's mare may also help by prompting
someone somewhere to go out to their barn and check things over just once more
before bedtime, or perhaps to install that extra security light they were
putting off for months...
No one will likely ever know about such things or changes happening amongst
readers of the case as a result.
But one thing for certain; not telling about the case would mean no one
will *ever* know what could have been prevented that will happen.
The next abuse case in the future could possibly have
been prevented by one post here!
>And Tom's
>questioning of your posts isn't going to prevent someone else from
>responding to your requests. He may be persuasive, but even he isn't _that_
>good (no offense, Tom).
Oh geez, if you can call that "questioning", it reads more like personal
attacks... I've given up on that dude, nothing will make him happy, he won't
even call Doll to get the facts straight from the one investigating the case
nor will he believe anything we post here, he is a hopeless case.
>If anything, your responses to Tom's (and
>everyone's) posts have given readers more background info to use in their
>own decision making processes.
Lorie, there is no question that every post draws more and more interest, and
people will make up their own minds. Pat and I thought we all were here for
the benefit of animals, not attacking people personally and hurling rancid
insults for simply posting here. New readers must look in and wonder if this
isnt just another soap opera argument forum and leave. Who here who wants to
read about *horses* and related topics wants to be bothered reading through
all the personal attacks, language, cursing and insults? We posted what we
received and what we had, if that wasn't good enough for someone here, then
in one word; *tough*, phone, fax or email the contacts for more specific
details answered in person directly from the source(s) we gave or don't. That
is each person's choice.
Anyone here can call the investigator Doll Stanley-Branscum personally if
they are that interested for 99 cents, and get the facts immediately, ask
additional questions we might not think of, and to request hard copies etc.,
which of course you can't get on an electronic forum in any case!
That way you don't have to get anything second hand from anyone else. That's
the best most direct method than relying on other people. We did try to call
Doll this evening, but the number turns out to be her(?) office number and
the message machine was chock *full* of messages judging by the minute or so
the tone ran untill empty tape came around to record with. Either a lot of
people are calling, or Doll is out of town. Mike and Pat
In Defense of Animals' phone# is (415) 388-9641
i...@idausa.org
Doll Stanley-Branscum
Granada, MS 38901
(601) 237-4382 Office phone
(601) 237-4093 fax
====================================================
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
We have no affiliations with any religious group/movement, nor do we
financially support *any* animal groups beyond contributing or distributing
news items, files etc regarding bestiality/zoophilia abuse to/from their
forums, legislative/investigative personnel, and to use their resources to
educate animal owners about sexual abuse of animals.
cre...@my-dejanews.com
> Animal abuse certainly exists. I have yet to see you site one
> verifiable case of sexual abuse pertaining to horses.
One of the cases that "pro4animal" cites at his website is of a man who was
accused of fondling horses (not known if genital touching was involved), with
his clothes off. The horse must have felt terrible about a naked man rubbing
himself all over its body.
cre...@my-dejanews.com
sto...@wt.net wrote:
> Congratulations! You've managed to get in bed with one of the most
> notorious so-called "animal welfare" groups existent. When you tire of
> attempting to make folks think press releases have anything to do with
> news, you might want to check out the following URL.
Is there even one animal rights/welfare organization that is "against
zoophiles" that is open, honest, above-board, and not a gang of thieves,
swindlers, or lunatics?
I honestly want information that will falsify this impression. One honest
organization that comes out against zoophiles. The HSUS is easily proven to
be a corrupt and thieving bunch. PETA hasn't said much, but has the same
claim to fame. IGHA is quite shady, isn't it? BTW, at IGHA, check the
posture of the horse they claim is a starveling. The effortless poise looks
like someone took a photograph of a very well-treated horse and altered it.
Bill Kambic
> Is there even one animal rights/welfare organization that is "against
> zoophiles" that is open, honest, above-board, and not a gang of thieves,
> swindlers, or lunatics?
Hooved Animal Humane Society (HAWS) seems to have the upper hand right now in
the honesty and forthrightness department. I do not have their address, but I
have seen it posted here before.
Many local humane societies have their hearts in the right place, but lack large
animal expertise. Of course, most are "doggie and kitty" groups whose agenda
can be as questionable as national organizations. When dealing with local
groups, you really have to "read between the lines" when you speak with them or
read their materials.
Zoophilia is, to me, a pretty disgusting practice. But it is only one minuscule
area of abusive behavior, and probably not the most serious. If you are
interested in supporting equine humane organizations start with HAWS and go from
there.
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
cre...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > Animal abuse certainly exists. I have yet to see you site one
> > verifiable case of sexual abuse pertaining to horses.
>
> One of the cases that "pro4animal" cites at his website is of a man who was
> accused of fondling horses (not known if genital touching was involved), with
> his clothes off. The horse must have felt terrible about a naked man rubbing
> himself all over its body.
Maybe not at that point, but the man was observed and then arrested *before*
he could injure the horse in any way. By "fondling the horse", he was
beginning to have sex with the animal before he was arrested. Since he was
tresspassing, and abusing someone else's horse without their permission, the
police were justified in arresting him. Mike and Pat
Andrew Leech
> Is there even one animal rights/welfare organization that is "against
>zoophiles" that is open, honest, above-board, and not a gang of thieves,
>swindlers, or lunatics?
I should hope not! Any honest above-board animal welfare organisation should
be campaigning to stop *abuse*, whether or not it is sexual in nature. An
organisation that is trying to censor web-sites and create laws about what
is really a psychiatric issue, has more in common with the authorities of the
former Soviet Union than I for one am comfortable with.
Remember that terms such as "zoophilia" can cover a great range of people, from
the genuinely dangerous through the ignorant and misguided to the certainly
harmless. My problem with "pro_animal" etc, is that their method of combatting
the (rather rare) problem of sexual cruelty to animals, is one of the oldest and
most disreputable in the book - namely to lump all the above together and tar
them with the same brush, dragging in specious analogies and tendentious mis-
quotation ad lib.
This sort of approach is directly cognate with those used against homosexuals
and religious minorities in other places at other times - take a few emotional
and indefensible cases and use them to whip up public aggression against a much
larger group, most of whom, even if they are genuinely a problem, would be better
dealt with without using the law (e.g. medically).
"pro_animal" claim that this is their only agenda and that they are unconnected
with other animal rights organisations - however the material they have posted
in the past as references seems to stem from that arena (e.g. Carol Adams -
author of "The Sexual Politics of Meat" who apparently considers that "the system
that kills animals is the same as that which oppresses women").
Even if they do retire once their desired laws are passed, they are still opening
a Pandora's box. Once other AR organisations see that laws can be got this way
they will start pressing. People like veterinarians and AI technicians will start
to get the sort of attention now reserved for fur-farms and fox-hunters. Sports
like steeplechasing and eventing will come under pressure.
People such as zoophiles form the hardest tests for a society that likes to call
itself free. I can't think of any public figure who would stand up and defend
bestiality. This makes it all the more important to examine very carefully and
dispassionately laws designed to control them, and to ensure that they are made
to control genuine harm, not simply on the basis of intolerance and prejudice.
On the evidence I have seen, "pro_animal" seem to be fuelled mainly by disgust
and self-righteous indignation - always dangerous motives when applied to
politics.
Andrew
(My apologies for the lack of an ObH, and for that fact that this post, and
thread, really belong in talk.politics.animals)
--
--
Email: a dotte leech atte uea dotte ac dotte uk - U-no-Y!
Andrew Leech *All opinions personal
Biological Sciences *
University of East Anglia *Economics is the eugenics of
Norwich, UK *the late 20th century.
Tom Stovall
re: Dreams of Glory, admission of crimes, ignorance.
[deletia]
>Juvenile who was mentioned who participated in microwaving a small dog
>previously, the case and the boy became known to those in the buttons >case despite sealed records, because the local humane society was in
>court prosecuted the microwaving incident, and relayed the boy's >information to the IDA...
Really? I think your nose is growing far beyond durantesque
proportions. Anonymous, so-called, "humane societies", local or
otherwise, do not prosecute anything, anywhere - that's the province of
the people's representative. And, if you really want to claim that
someone "relayed" the SEALED record of juvenile court proceedings to
someone, I urge you to report this crime to the proper authorities.
[deletia]
re: "I can weld anything from the crack of dawn to a broken heart, but
I'm not a welder, I'm a farrier/blacksmith. It would seem that someone
who claims to have an interest in horses beyond pruriency would know the
difference between a welder and a farrier..." -TS
>Interesting, because your web site says, and offers lamps and other >stuff... Still looks more like welding and ornamental art iron work to
>me than horse and animal work...
Should your ever tire of making a fool of yourself, have someone who
knows something about horses explain to you the significance of this
statement: "AFA Journeyman Farrier since 1983."
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"Los muertos no hablan." -Francisco Villa
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>Jeanette wrote:
>I'm very sorry to hear about such cruelty. I hope that something is done to
>the people (monsters) that do this type of thing.
Thank you Jeanette, and you can bank on it, something *is* being done
about this kind of abuse, speaking legislatively and public awareness.
At least three animal groups we know of have decided to get involved on
this. Others will no doubt follow as more and more is written and distributed
about this.
You can count on legislative proposals against bestiality and the web sites
promoting the illegal porn of it (handled just like the kiddie porn abuses
children issue) will begin appearing
in every state that currently has no laws against sex with animals. (Most
current animal abuse laws do not cover bestiality, which is usually addressed
under very old sodomy laws)
>However, I'm writing because you and Tom Stovall are both caught in a
>useless argument. He has valid points and so do you. The heart and intent
>of the original post has been completely lost.
That's just it, of the supposed "tens of thousands" of readers here, in
looking over the threads, it appears only about four people have even
participated in this thread publically. Maybe all the rest don't care one way
or the other or don't want to get involved. There is such a thing as
emotional burnout or mental block on such issues that some cant handle, we
understand that.
On the other hand, 17 readers from here sent us email privately on this issue
and the mare wanting to know what they can do to *help* animals, not to
continue circular arguments. We think that is a positive sign.
>If you hear of the results of this case and know what will happen to the
>people that did this, please pass it on (If you feel up to it, I realize you
>might not want to bother with it by now). I'm sure there are others that
>would like to know what the outcome is for those disgusting people since we
>know what it was for that poor horse.
I doubt we will bother at this point to post further on this case here, we
already spent two weeks on this one case, posted the information we set out
to, posted the investigator's name, address, phone, fax, the owner's names,
location, the newspaper and their phone number (plus the statement that the
newspaper staff are willing to fax these articles to interested people on
request) that carried several accounts on the case over the summer.
I fail to see what *else* we could possibly say on this case of any interest
or use to anyone here. Sure, we could spend half of tommorow and run up our
phone bill calling the sheriff's dept, the court, the paper, get the case
details, docket numbers, case number and all that etc. just to do what? post
it here because Stovall wants us to, because he is too lazy to make a 99 cent
call to the investigator to ask about the case? Maybe he has a reason why he
won't, we have yet to hear him state he is 100% against bestiality and sexual
contact with animals and wants to see it added to current animal abuse laws.
What could anyone here possibly do with any of that information?
If you are interested in the case and animal abuse, you have to take the
initiative to spend ten minutes and 99 cents to make the call yourself and ask
your own questions. It probably costs someone at least that much to post here
demanding more details.
Our doing that for folks here is useless, because folks would then have to
take our word for what ever details we post, or then spend 99 cents to call
and verify them. If you are then going to call to verify the docket and case
number, and all the rest, it's a whole lot simpler and more efficient to call
the investigator handling the bestiality dragging case *yourself* and not
have to do a runaround or rely on other people.
We spent more than enough time on this one case as it is, those who are going
to act would have done so, or will, and nothing we or Stovall said from day
one is going to convince anyone one way or the other. 17 rec.eq. People
spoke up privately, we will keep them in mind and continue to encourage them
to get involved as they are interested in the case.
After we finish another post we started for this thread and post it, It is
time for us to look into the the cow rape/killing case in Oxford that was
sent to us. You have all the information you need on the Buttons case to
verify it and get specifics. If you lost the info, here it is again, and
those involved;
In Defence of Animals (IDA) ida...@ida.org
Horse owners: Jackie and Terry Mimm, Boyle Mississippi
Investigating the case:
Doll Stanley-Branscum
Granada, MS 38901
(601) 237-4382 phone
(601) 237-4093 fax
Juvenile who was mentioned who participated in microwaving a small dog
previously, the case and the boy became known to those in the buttons case
despite sealed records, because the local humane society was in court
prosecuted the microwaving incident, and relayed the boy's information to the
IDA. That was as we suspected- someone in the courtroom relayed the
information.
Newspaper: "Boliver Commercial", Boliver county
Phone; 601-843-4241 Will supposedly send faxes of this story on request, here
are a few dates and headlines you will need for your request;
June 11th 1998 Mare named; "Buttons" found dead.
Headline; Weds June 17, "Reward offered in mare's death"
"Horse sodomised and dragged to death" (behind a pickup truck)
^^^^^^^^^
June 23
Headline;
"Few leads develop.."
June 24th;
Sheriff blasts rumors about suspects
(rumors that they were nice kids just playing around)
Debbi Inglum, staff writer.
>I'm glad she appears to have gotten
>in one well placed kick before the end.
Very happy here, hopefully the scars will serve as a daily reminder when he
looks in the mirror, and one which he'll have to explain to just about
everyone for the rest of his life; "Da scar came from when me an two buds
dragged a stupid mare to death an she kick me in da face"
=Stovall wrote:
A lot of rehashed snippage to which we state;
*Call the number we gave you and ask the investigator yourself*
=I can weld anything from the crack of dawn to a broken heart, but I'm
=not a welder, I'm a farrier/blacksmith. It would seem that someone who
==claims to have an interest in horses beyond pruriency would know the
=difference between a welder and a farrier,
Interesting, because your web site says, and offers lamps and other stuff;
"Katy Prairie Forge is a working blacksmith shop. We still shoe a few
horses, but mostly we do traditional and contemporary, hand forged,
metalwork. Many of our products offer the customer a choice of artwork
depicting cowboys, rodeo, wildlife, horse racing, horse shows, and most other
equine activities. When you see something of interest, please click on the
image. Furniture art, bar-b-cue tools, weather vanes, fireplace tools,
mailbox posts, dinner bells, cooking irons, hatracks"
Still looks more like welding and ornamental art iron work to me than
horse and animal work.
=Farrier & Blacksmith
=sto...@wt.net
=http://web.wt.net/~stovall
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>Juvenile who was mentioned who participated in microwaving a small dog
>previously, the case and the boy became known to those in the buttons
>court prosecuted the microwaving incident, and relayed the boy's
=Really? Anonymous, so-called, "humane societies", local or
=otherwise, do not prosecute anything, anywhere
Really.
I'll try that again so you can comprehend the facts a little easier;
The Boyle (or Boliver county) humane society as you say, may not do the
*actual* physical prosecution, but their cruelty investigators, attorney and
reps would be fully involved in the case in some fashion, their animal
control officer(s) would also be involved If only to testify in court. That
is helping and being involved in the prosecution of a case. What do you think
humane society cruelty investigators and animal control officers *do* but get
involved in such cases and testifying, gathering evidence and photos etc.
Anyone who sits in in court as a spectator, or attends a public trial,
hearing etc, or in the mare killing case; representatives, cruelty
investigators, animal control officer etc for a local humane society,
witnesses who are called to testify, jury, everyone involved including the
microwaved dog's owners, and the owners of the mare Buttons, those who found
the body of the mare and phone the police would naturally know just about
every detail about the case since they are participants in one form or
another. None of them are required to keep anything secret, at least that is
untill the trial concludes as in the case of a jury.
So it is extremely difficult I know, for you to grasp the concept that any
one of those people, in this case it was representatives from the local
humane society, who informed the "In Defence of Animals" group, (and anyone
else they felt like) the defendant's information and his previous case
regarding the dog.
Even if the hearing concerning the dog was closed to the general public,
witnesses, the dog's owner, and the humane society representatives called to
testify, jury if there was one, would know who the defendant is and what he
looks like.
It's very hard for you to accept that details about the boy's priors probably
having leaked out that way, very easy, quite legally and done all the time but
surely you wouldn't expect humane society reps, animal control officers or the
animal owners whose animals were tortured to death would protect the one who
killed the animal by keeping his identiyy and case a total secret, sealed
records or not do you??
Mike and Pat
Tom Stovall
re: Unsubstantiated claims regarding juveniles. "...the case and the boy
became known to those in the buttons case despite sealed records,
incident, and relayed the boy's information to the IDA..." -anon
[emphasis mine]
>TS> Really? Anonymous, so-called, "humane societies", local or
>TS> otherwise, do not prosecute anything, anywhere...
> Really.
>I'll try that again so you can comprehend the facts a little easier;
>The Boyle (or Boliver county) humane society as you say, may not do >the *actual* physical prosecution...
The fact is that you wrote "prosecuted." Your use of the term was either
a mistake, an attempt to be disingenuous, or an outright lie. I suspect
the latter.
>but their cruelty investigators, attorney and reps would be fully >involved in the case in some fashion, their animal control officer(s) >would also be involved If only to testify in court...
Not necessarily. Juvenile proceedings are a bit different than criminal
courts.
>That is helping and being involved in the prosecution of a case...
You didn't write "being involved" you wrote "prosecuted." Since there's
a substantial difference in the meaning of the terms, it appears you've
once again been caught trying to bullshit the troops.
>What do you think humane society cruelty investigators and animal >control officers *do* but get involved in such cases and testifying, >gathering evidence and photos etc...
Here in Texas, commissioned peace officers investigate allegations of
inhumane treatment to animals, another name for "animal control officer"
is "dog catcher", and neither individual works for any so-called "humane
society."
>Anyone who sits in in court as a spectator, or attends a public trial,
>hearing etc, or in the mare killing case; representatives, cruelty
>investigators, animal control officer etc for a local humane society,
>witnesses who are called to testify, jury, everyone involved including >the microwaved dog's owners, and the owners of the mare Buttons, those >who found the body of the mare and phone the police would naturally >know just about every detail about the case since they are >participants in one form or another. None of them are required to keep >anything secret, at least that is untill the trial concludes as in the >case of a jury...
Do juveniles have court jury trials where you live? "Public" trials?
>So it is extremely difficult I know, for you to grasp the concept that >any one of those people, in this case it was representatives from the
>local humane society, who informed the "In Defence of Animals" group, >(and anyone else they felt like) the defendant's information and his >previous case regarding the dog...
I don't have any difficulty in grasping the notion that zealots and
rumormongers can and will say anything about anybody.
>Even if the hearing concerning the dog was closed to the general >public, witnesses, the dog's owner, and the humane society >representatives called to testify, jury if there was one, would know >who the defendant is and what he looks like...
In other words, you don't KNOW that any of this took place, you are just
repeating a rumor because it sounds good and might further your "cause."
>It's very hard for you to accept that details about the boy's priors...
Rumors are not "details", "priors" are a matter of public record.
>probably having leaked out that way, very easy, quite legally and done >all the time...
The ease with which rumors are started and perpetuated does not make the
folks who repeat them any more credible or any less contemptible.
>but surely you wouldn't expect humane society reps, animal control
>officers or the animal owners whose animals were tortured to death
>would protect the one who killed the animal by keeping his identiyy and >case a total secret, sealed records or not do you??...
In reality, one could not possibly KNOW that dog or horse was treated
inhumanely on the basis of a rumor, even if one has it on good authority
that the source of the rumor was someone who is related to a friend of a
friend of somebody who has a nodding acquaintance with the bailiff's
hairdresser.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"I'm a farrier." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."
cre...@my-dejanews.com
And...@see.sig.for.email (Andrew Leech) wrote:
> I should hope not! Any honest above-board animal welfare organisation should
> be campaigning to stop *abuse*, whether or not it is sexual in nature. An
> organisation that is trying to censor web-sites and create laws about what
> is really a psychiatric issue, has more in common with the authorities of the
> former Soviet Union than I for one am comfortable with.
Bear in mind that the psychiatrists no longer seem to consider it to be an
issue.
>
> Remember that terms such as "zoophilia" can cover a great range of people,
from
> the genuinely dangerous through the ignorant and misguided to the certainly
> harmless. My problem with "pro_animal" etc, is that their method of combatting
> the (rather rare) problem of sexual cruelty to animals, is one of the oldest
and
> most disreputable in the book - namely to lump all the above together and tar
> them with the same brush, dragging in specious analogies and tendentious mis-
> quotation ad lib.
Thank you. And, unfortunately, this method seems to be almost the only
method that any political activists will use anymore. If there is a social
problem, one side needs to be smeared and then punished for being dirty.
>
> This sort of approach is directly cognate with those used against homosexuals
> and religious minorities in other places at other times - take a few emotional
> and indefensible cases and use them to whip up public aggression against a
> much larger group, most of whom, even if they are genuinely a problem, would
> be better
> dealt with without using the law (e.g. medically).
And perhaps medicine will decide that the "problem" doesn't need treatment.
Yes, this thread does belong in talk.politics.animals.
Tom Stovall
re: Credibility
>Meanwhile... a dead mare who could have used people's letters to the
>DA's office about the case, were not mailed off, that is due to your
>direct action...
>Anyone here can call the investigator Doll Stanley-Branscum...
>That way you don't have to get anything second hand from anyone else.
Unless she was an eye witness, anything Ms. Doll S-B might have to say
would just be second hand, aka, "hearsay."
Furthermore, I don't know how much credibility one might attach to the
hearsay of someone who admits slipping into somebody's chicken house and
ste... er, "rescuing" 78 cull layers from slaughter. For a flowery
account of anthropomorphism in action and end-justifies-the-means
mentality, please see:
<<http://www.upc-online.org/rescuing.html>>
I don't know about other states, but here in Texas, sneaking into
somebody's chicken house in the middle of the night and making off with
78 of their cull layers is not something one wants to admit on one's
webpage, no matter how "justified" one might feel one's actions.
Chickens are livestock and Texas has some pretty harsh laws dealing with
taking that which ain't yours.
cdhoward
>
> I don't know about other states, but here in Texas, sneaking into
> somebody's chicken house in the middle of the night and making off with
> 78 of their cull layers is not something one wants to admit on one's
> webpage, no matter how "justified" one might feel one's actions.
stealing chickens??? wasn't that the sole occupation of Earnest T.
Bass???
well at least you'd be able to track the culprit by the smell of his
shoes......shoooooooowheeeeeee....
what a buncha loonies...
Tamara in TN
Don Bruder
<snip>
: ste... er, "rescuing" 78 cull layers from slaughter. For a flowery
: account of anthropomorphism in action and end-justifies-the-means
: mentality, please see:
:
: <<http://www.upc-online.org/rescuing.html>>
You tickled my curious-bone with this one, Tom, so I went and took a look.
Please, PLEASE tell me this page is a joke, and that there's really nobody
walking around free on the face of this planet with such a bizarre
world-picture? It's fiction, right? Some kiddie-fantasy with no connection
whatsoever to reality?
Putting it a little more bluntly, this broad is friggin' WHACKED! I wonder
if it's something in the water...
--
Don Bruder - Dak...@primenet.com <--- Preferred Email - unmunged
Secondary --> Dak...@grfn.org +------------------------------+
Horseman by day, 'net-freak by night. What a contrast, eh?
Don Bruder
(Caballito) wrote:
: >Putting it a little more bluntly, this broad is friggin' WHACKED! I wonder
: >if it's something in the water...
:
: Um... well actually, Don, you forgot the key information about Ms.
: Doll-whatever. She's in Mississippi. Say no more. ;)
Now that you mention it, that would explain things, wouldn't it?
Pro4animal
we would post to conclude the Buttons case for now.
Decided to add some additional material, some law related text and
example URLS, it is very long but covers a lot of ground.
You can expect zoophiles to post their pro- animalsex materials and comments
here now, that
is fine and expected but will have little effect.
Stovall simply attacks literally everything and every one we noticed, others
probably noticed too-
the newspaper and staff, animal groups, the investigator
(and even her name is ridiculed), the state of Mississippi, us. We haven't seen
one thing in any of his posts that
complements anyone or anything, nor making a statement denouncing
bestiality and that it is an animal abuse issue...
>Lorie wrote:
>I just re-read the post about the mustang mare that was dragged behind a
>trailer.
The vet it was said, spoke about the extent of the injuries, it was his
*opinion*
(which is not purjury , nor covering up.
He could never be convicted of that because it was opinion.
>I can't imagine
>_any_ vet not noticing shredded flesh
Maybe he did, but he gave his *opinion*, and no one here will probably
ever know the inside details of any possible friendships, client
or business relationships etc that may or may not have existed.
The vet certainly can turn his eyes away by stating his opinion on
the injuries, there is no law against that, and he could legally testify
in court that in his *opinion* the injuries were not "animal abuse"
Maybe there is no "coverup" as you think, but apathy and a "who cares"
attitude,
The same people surrounding the case may feel the same way about cows
cats, mice or chickens, making no distinction in their minds
that the animal involved was a horse.
> The *build-up* of the
Except for the DA's arrest warrant, and they don't usually issue those on
hearsay or little evidence. They cost taxpayer money and time, as well as
adding to
already overbooked court time. I am sure the DA wouldn't have acted on a whim
just because someone said it was abuse. There is such a thing as suing for
false arrest, not to mention a lawsuit if the DA was wrong.
>I also re-read the two tales of Buttons. The first was a *call to action*
>and included a sample letter
Keep in mind people have the right to petition Government to act on
things public monies are appropriated for, in this case the laws and law
enforcement. If the people feel one branch is not doing something to their
satisfaction, they have the right to request another branch look into it.
If there is a law in a state against animal abuse, or bestiality, and a case
comes up or complaint, I believe the appropriate department is required to
act, investigate or accept a filed complaint.
The DA may not feel the time
and money spent on "xyz case" would be worth the end results, say a $250
fine for someone convicted only after the state spends $25,000 prosecuting the
case. That could be one reason they may decline to push a case beyond taking
written reports and filing them especially if "just" an animal is involved.
> Only the first post included
>contact information for the AG, the rest only offer info to contact the
>group/person behind the campaign.
No, we included the entire message with headers which included the
sender's email address with statements that she rec'd it from the IDA mailing,
and the forum in which we rec'd it where she posted it (a mailing list) as
well as the IDA's phone number.
Subsequently we included the IDA's email address when we found it, a name
of the one we emailed to (David, when he responded) and the investigator's
name, address phone and fax number (She doesnt have net access)
>And not an e-mail address or URL, but a
>phone # that would be long distance for most reading the posts.
Well there was no email address to be given out, not everyone has email or
gives theirs out to the general public.
As far as long distance calls go, it would be a long distance call for
*us* too, and we didn't even need the details someone "requested" here,
because we only needed the basic case overview as an example on our web site.
Then you would be able to
speak to the investigating person, ask your *own* questions you may come up
with that others here would not think of, and to request *hard copies* if you
wanted- something no one in an electronic forum like this can provide here.
The benefits of calling the investigating person yourself outweigh reading what
someone else posts.
What could we post of any use to you Lorie, or anyone else here?
A case number? are you an attorney,? one who knows how to use case numbers
and trial dockets? A newspaper clipping date? are you actually going to
spend the time searching archives on a newspaper web site for a half an
hour to verify and read it? (Some papers charge a $1.00 download fee or more,
many don't keep archives on line)
Even if we had and provided the Judges name and court number, why would you
spend the time and money calling the judge, probably not ever reaching
more than his secretary, but not the woman investigating the case?
We also provided the mare owner's name and location, we *have* their phone
number as well, but anyone interested can get it easy enough and ask the
*owner* what happened. We won't post it on an open forum like this and they may
not want to be called.
>It was also
>mentioned that these two posts were re-posted from another group, I haven't
>figured out which group that might have been. But that's only a tiny
>detail.
We posted the entire message we rec'd, it clearly said "In Defence of Animals"
(IDA) and they were only asking for people to write the DA and just
gave a brief overview of the case as a refresher for those already familiar
with the case. We thought that was obvious in the text.
>Something that was glossed over in the posts was that the case of Buttons is
>nearly a year old.
>I went into this little review thinking that maybe this story was a
>compilation of facts from various abuse stories --- thinking that it seemed
It is nine months, which is as close to your near year as "This spring"
Sept/Oct 1998) was to spring of 1998 isnt it?
No, there are three completely seperate, different cases, not even in the
same state, one involving a mare who refused to get into the owner's trailer
so he dragged her behind it. The DA filed an arrest warrant for cruelty.
The second was the multiple stabbings incidents, different state (Arkansas),
and different time frame entirely, but happened to involve a mare
named "Button" which I recall someone posted was in the fall.
Third case was ButtonS the mare in Mississippi who was sexually abused and
then dragged to death. That was on June 11, the other cases were in a different
time frame.
>Maybe that's the key: when an abuse
>case _happens_ mention it to the group as the news comes across the wire, so
>to speak. Not a year later when there are no reliable news sources for
Lori, the mare having been found dead June 11, and the *case* may be 9 months
old yes, but the first and second post we made
on this were simply requests that had been submitted and published last year
quoted verbatum here. Published in the IDA's newsletter requesting people
contact the DA to push the case.
Keep in mind it normally takes 2-3 months lead time for a submitted item,
(even a paid ad) to appear in monthly magazines and publications, more if it is
a quarterly or bi-monthly publication.
That case couldn't even appear in print in a monthly magazine such as horse &
Rider for example, untill around Sept or October, and that assumes it was
submitted right away and there was space for it during what would be the
Christmas season ad rush with space at a premium already reserved.
So when the item was published last summer/fall it referred
to; "This spring.." It was however new news to us and readers on a mailing
list when it was posted about 3 weeks ago to follow up the case we had'nt heard
about before. It was also new to readers here.
>With regards to the issue of the original poster of the Buttons report,
>he/she has stated that his/her intent is to put an end to the sexual abuse
>of horses more than the general abuse of horses, and to shut down related
>web sites. Makes me wonder what would happen if someone posted a web site
>with a photo series to go along with the recently posted instructions on
>sheath cleaning. But that's just my cynicism creeping in...
Lori, our web site explains that quite well. As far as sheath cleaning photos,
breeding photos, A.I. and the like, that is a completely different story, those
are *medical and animal husbandry related* and we have no problem whatsoever
with it. Even the HSUS's anti bestiality campaign specifically excludes usual
animal husbandry/breeding related activities.
None of that depicts or promotes animal sexual abuse like bestiality.
Porn showing a man raping a small animal or gangbanging a miniature mare, sow,
goat or other animal *is* depicting animal abuse, and an animal had to be
abused in order to depict it just as surely as a child had to be abused to
produce child pornography.
On the other hand, if you had sheath cleaning photos on your web site
you could count on zoophiles stealing your photos to distribute as a form
of porn in their sex forums, and to add links to your web site from their
animal sex sites.
Here are some examples of how pages like "yours" if you have one, appear in
links on animal sex sites. Does anyone here really want *their* web page about
their horses or pets linked to by bestiality sites?
Taken from www.ianszoolinks.com/zoolinks which is a long
list of links to zoophile web sites, animal porn etc. one of hundreds;
================
http://www.vet.ksu.edu/media/images/therio/
From the teaching files of R. G. Elmore, D.V.M., M.S. Diplomate
http://128.192.20.19/LAM/LM000127.HTML
BULL BREEDING
A Breeding Soundness Evaluation
(BSE) for the bull determines his ability
to pass established criteria that
measure his semen production. Current Therapy in Theriogenology.
http://columbia.premier1.net/~iamdavid/
A non-zoo site that offers trips to swim
with dolphins in the wild. I can't be the
only zoo who'd like to try that! (Kniner)
Http://members.aol.com/HorsePwr24/breeding.info.html
Everything for the horse lover, images,
breeding and a section "STALLION MASTURBATION"
http://members.aol.com/CRTrust/PONYSEX.html
(I am sure these people surely wont appreciate having their web site associated
with a bestiality site link):
Horse - Equine Breeding Farm Management Consulting Family Farm and Closely-Held
Business Succession Planning Staff Seminars and Management
Training Services for Breeding Farms Artificial Insemination and
Management Techniques to Improve Productivity Zero Estate Tax Planning
Options
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/swine/
Another excellect site for us boar fans!
http://www.aztec-net.com/~srgenetics/
Reproductive Technologies for the Sheep, Goat and
Farmed Deer Industries. Pics of rams beeing
collected. Check also: .../services.htm and
.../client.htm
http://bioinfo.kordic.re.kr/animal/
Bioinfo Animal Pictures Archive, more than 14,000 images !!!
Has a search engine so u can search with "mating", "breeding", etc.,
also has a link to some animal movies.
=================
(This one below describes how to tresspass onto horse owner's property
at a 3 a.m. type time frame to molest their mares, and what precautions to take
to avoid being caught, or to try to get out of it)
http://www.ianszoolinks.com/stories/winterzoo.txt
Description of equipment for zooish activities in the winter
Here is a portion of that file as an example which sums up their;
"fence hopping" activities nicely;
"In This file I will give examples of the thing that I
use when I "Go For A Walk" There are many files
devoted to the practices and methods of Zoophiles,
This file examines the equipment that our zoo
community uses during the long cold Maine winter.
Enjoy!"
"If you are caught but they didn't see anything, about
the only thing they can charge you with is trespassing."
"Beware of cars. Assume that every car that passes is
a cop."
"Don't be afraid of asking the owner for help if you
have been kicked, injured, or are very cold. It is
much better to be charged for trespassing than to
bleed or freeze to death."
"lubricants, I have successfully used lubricants to
make life easier and more comfortable. I have used
some of these; egg-white, aloe vera gel, watered down
ky, and good old spit, and whatever you do KEEP IT
WARM!"
"Urine, During deer hunting season go to Kmart and buy
some "Doe In Heat" deer urine. Last year I got a few
bottles and a gelding that I was visiting seemed to
take a intrest in the stuff. Granted it was not of
the same species but judging by the size of his
erection he didn't seem to mind."
"Food, Anything that they would consider a treat. like
apples, carrots, bread, breakfast cereal, coke,
Pepsi. or anything else that you can think of that
they don't get normally. "
"A good way of not being caught is to know that the
owners are out for while. I like to find out as much
as possible about the owners and their movement
habits. I look at the house and see if the pattern of
lights has or has not changed for about two hours. If
the lights haven't changed I give them a call to see
if their is anyone at home and ask for some bullshit
person is home. If no answer I go on with the visit. Also no tire
tracks in the snow is a dead giveaway that they
aren't home."
==========================
On the net, zoophiles promote their activities as "consenting", of course they
do- they want any and all laws removed and no new ones put in place.
But there are other issues you probably never even considered or thought of
which must be taken into account, especially if you own valuable breeding stock
or are responsible for other people's animals, say as a stud owner caring for
and legally responsible for a visiting mare's safety.
Would you approve of some stranger, or more than one together tresspassing on
your ranch or property at 3 a.m. to "visit" your mares, with the sole intent of
sex with them?
Keep in mind; the damage to them that can be caused if one is spooked by
creapezoids lurking around the stalls in the dark, a horse takes off running
and crashes through a fence. Ever have something like that happen for no reason
late at night and wonder why?
The real risk of spreading harmful pathogens, infections, vaginal/urinary tract
infections, brucellosis and diseases from one animal to another.
Such as; from a mare being boarded, to your valuable brood mare by the person.
Or by his having visited another mare elsewhere "fence hopping", carrying any
of these things to your animals.
Dirty hands, fingernails, and other body parts being inserted along with
foreign body fluids, KY jelly, spit, egg whites etc where they don't belong...
Vets disinfect or at least wash their arms and hands before working on
pregnant mares or doing OB work dont they? They may even wear rubber gloves.
Do you think that dude hopping the fence at 3AM carries disinfectant and washes
up first, or even cares? (It's not his $20,000 champion or brood mare..) If
you read the file we quoted above, would you want your horses exposed to
unknown substances given to them to eat, or inserted into them?
How about HIV?
Don't expect the person to use a rubber either...
If you are a regular here or have a web site, and you offer details about your
horses, breeds, names (and thus their gender usually) where they are located,
photos of them on a web site..
It would be easy for any abuser who reads these forums who is within driving
distance, to then "visit" your animals with the advantage of knowing their
names, genders and any details about their trainability/attitude you may have
posted.
Mares sometimes abort for no reason, sometimes there are bacterial pathogens
and stress at work, would you risk that so some pervert you don't even know can
get his jollies on your animals because you felt zoophilia wasn't so
bad and did nothing?
If you are against this form of recreational sex and it's being promoted, you
may like to know if your state even has any laws against this (22 dont)
and if you live in a state that has no laws against this, and your animals are
victimised what is your recourse?
A petty charge of: "tresspassing" that may only carry a fine if even that
much???
The person is then free to visit your barn and mares again, then what can you
legally do about it? Very little unless you blast the man with a shotgun in
the knees as one goat owner in Enumclaw WA. did.
On the other hand, if you reside in one of the 28 states that has a law of some
kind against bestiality/zoophilia/zoosexuality, or an old sodomy law that
includes it, chances are it may carry only a fine too, or jail if you are
lucky. More often than not those old sodomy/morality laws are rarely enforced.
The HSUS and others are working on promoting to, and through, animal related
groups around the country to strengthen existing animal *cruelty laws* in all
50 states. They are already working as always on animal *abuse*, but they want
to include bestiality in that as an animal abuse issue.
So they will include bestiality/zoosexuality in them as animal abuse to be
prosecuted like any other animal abuse incident. The 22 states that have no
laws against bestiality etc will hopefully see this added to their animal abuse
laws.
Outdated old human sodomy laws that often contain sideline penalties for
bestiality are going by the wayside, that leaves animals with no protection
whatsoever in those states unless they either add a law specifically against
bestiality etc., or more likely just add it to existing cruelty/abuse laws.
That slight addition to abuse/cruelty laws should pass very easy anywhere they
are proposed.
One may ask why existing abuse laws cant cover this, that is complicated, but
the way we understand it; the judge and the courts cannot simply decide on
their own that something is animal abuse, they have to go by what the law text
says.
Some are vaguely worded and open to interpretation, others are very specific in
their wording, and may state specific acts or neglect incidents (beating,
hitting, kicking, chaining for example), length of time deprived of food,
water, vet care, temperature restrictions, shelter requirements, minimum
pasture size etc.
So if that law does not state for example, that sexual penetration of the
animal is included as a chargeable abuse/cruelty crime- just like not providing
proper winter shelter or enough food is a crime, chances are the judge will
never see the case.
Society has two legal choices in this matter now that animal groups are going
to be promoting animal abuse laws and education on this;
Make sex with animals illegal and forget about it, or make it legal. One way or
the other society will soon have to decide state by state what they want.
No longer will the issue remain in limbo as it has for so long because it is so
disgusting no one wants to talk about it.
Here are some quotations;
"We should condemn interspecies sexual assault
because it is morally wrong for exactly the same
reasons as is any form of interhuman abusive
behavior."
Peirs Beirne, Professor, Department of Criminology
University of Southern Maine, December 1998
"Children's sexual behavior with animals may be a clear signal of a
child's own experiences of abuse - physical, sexual, and/or emotional.
We must be alert to the potential diagnostic significance of bestiality
that goes beyond the normal sexual curiosity of young children."
Frank Ascione, Ph.D., Professor of Psychology
Utah State University, December 1998
When a child interacts sexually with an animal it may indicate that
the child is a victim of sexual abuse or may be sexually abusive to
others. People, especially children, are unlikely to voluntarily admit to
sexually abusing animals, therefore, it is extremely important that any
evaluation include questions about witnessing or experiencing sexual
interaction with animals."
Barbara W. Boat, Ph.D., Department of Psychiatry
University of Cincinnati, December 1998
Stopping domestic violence requires understanding battering behavior.
Sometimes--and we don't know how frequently--a batterer forces sex
between an animal and his partner. Motivated by dominance, these
acts have two victims: the partner and the animal. I endorse this
important project of The Humane Society of the United States, and the
courage they display in undertaking it."
Carol J. Adams, Author
December 1998
Clinical casework with juvenile sex offenders and violent adults
suggests that bestiality often combines the human perpetrator's sexual
arousal, the control and dominance of the animal victim, and, in some
cases, the death of the animal coincident with the perpetrator's sexual
release. It is difficult to imagine a worse scenario for developing
violently deviant sexual arousal patterns."
Frank Ascione, Ph.D., Professor of Psychology
Utah State University, December 1998
The only people who would oppose a law against animal sexual abuse
are those abusing the animals. There is clearly a need for these laws
and every state must enact a new law or strengthen their existing
prohibition. Not only should sexual abuse of an animal be a crime, but
forcing someone else to be sexually active with an animal; exposing a
child to such perversion; using an object to sexually abuse an animal;
videotaping sexual animal abuse, or killing or abusing animals for
sexual gratification should be crimes as well."
Ann Church, Senior Director, Government Affairs
he Humane Society of the United States, January 1999
Here are some example web pages zoophiles have, if after browsing them anyone
here feels sick, don't say we didn't warn you!
http://www.horse-sex.com
http://www.blueneptune.com/~calzoo/
http://www.netbook.net/zootopia
http://www.wlfnet.com/dogsex
http://www.dogsex.org
http://www.nevan.net/znews.htm
http://altreality.tzo.com/raczoon/zoophile.html
http://www.bytes.gen.nz/~brianac/zoophile.htm
http://www.zetavalley.com/zoo.htm
http://www.guidemag.com/features/laying-beasts.html
http://whiteshadow.pornopartners.com/zstories.html
http://www.montrose.net/users/wolffang/me/zooindex.htm
http://internettrash.com/users/beastlover/
http://members.webvilla.com/woof_woof/
http://altreality.tzo.com/barnside/index.html
http://aaron.pahrump.com
http://bbs.bianca.com/mforums/a/atruezoo/
http://www.zetavalley.com/zooring.htm
For more information on state laws, legislative information, information on
zoophilia/bestiality and what you can do to stop it, feel free to email us and
check our web site
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
Or these below which also have material on this issue;
http://www.hsus.org
http://igha.org/abuse.html#zoo
And to conclude, some may feel sorry for the people doing this to animals, as
being a psychiatric disorder they can't help.
We have seen nothing on any of their web pages or writings but glowing
testimonials about how much they like doing this, how they can't get aids from
animals which makes them great sex partners, and would not want to change. Not
one have we seen says anything such as; "I'd like to change
but have no money to get treatment"
However, there are treatments for those very few who *want* to change to become
normal again (or normal for the first time in their lives)
Most any psychiatric or mental health professional with experiance in
criminal, sadistic or deviant sexual disorders should be able to treat the
person who desires to become normal.
Therapy, medication and intervention, as well as removing the daily source of
the temptations (like removing booze and drugs from the home)
are effective.
Most of the time the animal is just a convienient "socket", there is no such
thing as a person born as a "zoophile" to have desires to have sex with
animals, it is a learned (or taught) and convienience thing coupled with low
self esteem, early childhood experiances, neglect, childhood sexual abuse etc.
These apply to pedophiles and their activities with young children with whom
they also claim "consent" to these activites, and claim a 4 year old child;
"came on to me" or: "Asked for it"
The same claims and writings are put forth by zooophiles as are put forth by
pedophiles. It reminds me of groups such as NAMBLA.
In the end people will decide for themselves about all of this regardless of
what either side or the law says.
Does one believe professionals, psychiatrists and criminologists,
or do they believe the self promotional writings, essays and text by those
committing the sex acts who want laws removed so they are completely free
to do what they wish sexually with animals who can't call for help like a
person can?
>Someone posted;
> This sort of approach is directly cognate with those used against homosexuals
> and religious minorities in other places at other times - take a few
emotional
> and indefensible cases and use them to whip up public aggression against a
> much larger group, most of whom, even if they are genuinely a problem, would
> be better
> dealt with without using the law (e.g. medically).
=Someone responded;
= And perhaps medicine will decide that the "problem" doesn't need =treatment.
Homosexuality takes place between two *consenting* and *comprehending* humans,
that novel concept falls a wee bit short when one of those involved in an
animal who can't say no or call for help, or happens to be a 4 year old child.
If you browse the zoophile web sites you will notice not one of them says the
author zoophile would like treatment to change, not one asks for help
in doing so. Indeed they spend their time posting web sites glorifying sex with
animals, putting up files on how-to, bestiality porn or links to bestiality
porn. None of those things are the actions of someone who wants or is seeking
help!
Oh and yes, some psychiatrists may not feel this needs treatment as long as the
*person* is "happy" with themselves. You see, their interest, education, years
of training and schooling is directed towards human emotional health. Their
concern and livelyhood is not for the animals involved at all, but what they
feel is best for the *person*, even if at the expense of an expendable animal.
It is also not possible for a psychiatrist to change an unwilling person, so it
stands to reason that those who dont want to change, and are happy with
themselves "need no treatment" for their perversion. Since the other "partner"
here is a non human who cant call for help, they become victims like small
children do in an abusive home environment.
A 4 year old child can't say no and does what daddy tells them to do, it is the
same with pets and animals, with the former being bred, raised and trained
*never* to bite or show aggression especially to their owners. The latter being
conditioned and trained to submit to people's will, along with a variety of
control aid devices if needed; rope, halter, bits, spurs, whips, crushes,
narrow stalls, head yokes, nose ring, bribes etc.
As far as male animals getting erections so that is used as "proof" the animal
enjoys what the person is doing, well it is entirely a physiological function
induced by a chemical that causes blood vessels to constrict.
It is entirely possible for a man to be raped by a woman, it doesn't mean he
enjoyed any part of it just because an erection was involved.
Regards,
===========================
Pro4animal
>From: fozz...@my-dejanews.com,
> a known zoophile posted;
A whole lot of snips
LOL you people will try just about anything to protect your
perversions with animals! You attack newspapers, animal groups, investigators,
humane societies and anyone else who is against what you do to animals.
It is too late for that you folks went on the Jerry Springer show, your web
sites and forums have been logged by many animal groups like the HSUS for
extended periods of time (four years of gatehring evidence against you as in
the case of the HSUS)
The tide is turning against your zoophile animal sex group and it began four
years ago when the lot of you began putting up web sites promoting bestiality
everywhere, and then trying to get a new newsgroup to further spread it.
All of that caught the attention of people who find what you do to be animal
abuse.
We hope before long you will see legislation being proposed in every state
which currently lacks an animal sex/bestiality law.
You have a lot more to worry about than us and our web site or posts here now
that a legislative movement is underway!
more animal related groups will become involved now that it has been announced.
Regards,
Mike and Pat
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
>Stovall simply attacks literally everything and every one we noticed, others
>probably noticed too-
>the newspaper and staff, animal groups, the investigator
=Jeez, I think the single most damning piece of evidence
=against this alleged "investigator" is her own screed about the
=chickens. Ol' Tom couldn't begin to match that.
SNIP
We read it, all I can say is if you took the time to look into factory farming
and many practices involving food animals and livestock, if you had any
compassion you would agree that serious changes need to be made.
We don't advocate eliminating meat and all that, but when animals are jammed
into packing crates, die from lack of air and toxic fumes like ammonia gas
generated from pits of urine, kept in enormous numbers in small spaces lacking
basic sunlight, freedom to move around and all, it becomes abusive and changes
need to be made even if it means those doing it have to accept less profits.
We don't condone taking animals out of a business like that, but in any
event that has virtually nothing to do with the mare case which the woman is
only investigating and following up through the court system.
Even if you don't like her, you do have the name and location of the owners of
Buttons the mare, you can call them directly and ask. That is the very best
way of getting to the bottom of the case;
Owners of buttons, the mare who was sodomised and killed;
Terry and Jackie Mimm
Boyle Mississippi
C.M.Newell
>Stovall simply attacks literally everything and every one we noticed, others
>probably noticed too-
>the newspaper and staff, animal groups, the investigator
Jeez, I think the single most damning piece of evidence
against this alleged "investigator" is her own screed about the
chickens. Ol' Tom couldn't begin to match that.
>The vet it was said, spoke about the extent of the injuries, it was his
>*opinion*
>(which is not purjury , nor covering up.
>He could never be convicted of that because it was opinion.
And it was the first-hand opinion of someone who actually
examined the animal in question, not some third-hand rant from a
specimen such as yourself. (Are you *really* doglover? That would
explain a lot.)
CMNewell, DVM
*****
Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
The Chuck of Eq
Tom Stovall
[deletia in lots of places]
>Stovall simply attacks literally everything and every one we >noticed...
"We?" Once again: unless you are pregnant, infested, infected or
joined at the hip - admittedly, all possibilities - there is no "we",
there is only you.
>others probably noticed too...
Naa, they were too busy laughing.
>the newspaper and staff...
I asked YOU if you'd bothered to read the material you cited as
supporting you position. You responded with some specious nonsense
about the newspaper's office being closed - which made it fairly evident
that you hadn't bothered to check your sources. That's not an attack on
the newspaper or their staff, that's an indictment of your lack of
intellectual integrity.
>animal groups...
I have an intense dislike for the so-called "animal rights" groups who
bilk folks out of the money that could be used to actually help animals
if it were given to legitimate animal welfare organization. I have the
utmost contempt for scams such as HSUS, who create sensationalistic,
mendacity-laden, propaganda in order to engender contributions that are
used for "operating expenses" - which are salaries and the creation of
more propaganda. Even a less-than-astue observer will notice that
something has been left out of this loop - the welfare of animals. HSUS
does not provide funding for food, shelter, care or spay/neuter clinics,
but it pays its executives extremely well.
>the investigator (and even her name is ridiculed)...
The so called "investigator" has no official status with any government
entity, she is an "investigator" for something calling itself, "In
Defense of Animals", a so-called "animal rights" organization based in
California which, according to their website, is against vivisection,
hunting, eating meat, owning animals, and probably slapping mosquitos -
but very much FOR folks sending them money.
In terms of credibility, Ms. Doll Stanley-Branscum publicly admits the
midnight "rescue" of 78 hens belonging to someone else - an admission of
fowl play that would cause someone convicted of the act here in Texas to
be known as a common chicken thief. Fact is, I think the public
admission of her exploits and her "reasoning" for them is probably more
worthy of attracting official notice - either from law enforcement or
mental health officials - than are her allegations of bestiality and
abuse.
Doubts? See: <<http://www.upc-online.org/rescuing.html>>.
Evidently, this "investigator" has no particular expertise in any phase
of animal husbandry; however, I'll certainly concede that her ability to
generate smarmy, anthropomorphic nonsense is without peer.
>the state of Mississippi,
Not me! I would never ridicule the fair state of Mississippi. I have
family there, including a very large cousin who played football for Ole
Miss who is not known for his placid nature.
>us...
True, I have attacked your lies, half-truths and disingenuousness on
several occasions. Obviously, I don't suffer fools all that well.
>We haven't seen one thing in any of his posts that complements anyone
>or anything...
I'm neither the welcome wagon nor a cheering section.
>nor making a statement denouncing bestiality and that it is an animal >abuse issue...
Why make a mountainous muckpile out of a few horse turds? Bestiality is
a minuscule component of animal abuse in comparison to more prominent
issues such as the routine inhumane treatment of many show TWH. In my
opinion, your obsession with bestiality is salacious and based on
pruriency, I don't believe you have any genuine concern for the welfare
of horses.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
Me'n Bubo: we fish, we hunt, we vote.
Bill Kambic
<large amounts of horseshit removed with a Bobcat>
> Owners of buttons, the mare who was sodomised and killed;
Didn't you miss a word, here, to wit: "allegedly"?
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
SNIP
=I strongly suspect the state in question has laws already established
=against =animal abuse. However, in consideration of this individual's
compulsive =preoccupation between human-animal sexual contacts, it is not
surprising =his obsession over bestiality dances it's way into this notion as
well.
The only problem there is we *know* Mississippi has a law against bestiality,
but 22 states *don't*, all of that is and was on our web site in
the law file. You offer nothing new there.
>Pro_animal writes:
> We have no affiliations with any religious
> group/movement,
=Randy (aka Mike -&- Pat) had previously written about his religious
=alliance. = He condems others for their nature, yet there's something
unnatural about =his own nature.
We did? let me think a moment, we had two links on our web site, all we could
could find or think of at the time last summer as a resource for any
zoophiles who needed someone free to talk to or as a resource starting point
to get help; The goodrich sexual disorder treatment site, and a link to a
large Episcopal church site which had many links to community services,
councelling and resources for lonely suicidal people to find some kind of
help. Zoophiles would be welcome and it was all we managed to find at the
time. We thought, like a few did, that zoophiles just suffer a mental
condition and can be treated, but when you read their web sites and writings
one can conslude very easy from them that the majority of them dont want any
treatment or help, and just want to be free to promote bestiality
=Like many mid-life born agains, they get into this frantic, moral-obsessive
=frenzy that borders on insanity. Nutballs like Mr Randy Pepe and other
=rabid Christian fanatics wave their arms, get red in the face trying to
Hmmm, you are sounding obsessive and trying to justify bestiality any way you
can.
Interesting theory, but we are hardly "born again" Christians, we simply go to
church and enjoy the community caring atmosphere on Sundays, that hardly makes
anyone "religious fanatics and born again Christians"!
"Born again" is some other group, and I doubt it is very effective, but if
someone needs something to believe in they have our blessings.
=Moral obsessives are typical of the self-righteous. You dig under the
=surface of the born again and you find out they were once completely
= over compensate thier feelings
=of guilt and garnish attention for themselves.
Again you are assuming a whole lot of baseless theory and making statements
you cannot back up. No where on our web site or posts do we say anything
about religious issues, condemnation of morality or mention God, the Bible or
anything along those lines.
In fact we have stated time and again that we have no problem or concerns
with legal consenting pornography or anything two *consenting adult humans*
do in the privacy of their own bedroom. Note the emphasis on; "consenting
humans"... It becomes our concern when these things involve animals or
children, both of whom are non-consenting victims you see.
=Randy Pepe is no exception. He slaughtered his dogs, yet =this demon
=presently calls himself an animal welfare advocate. This =monster
You are starting to sound like you are catonic and ramblng on trying to
protect your bestiality group in any way possible while grasping at straws.
Please provide the newspaper or animal right's magazine name(s), dates of any
and all arrest stories, humane investigator's contact information, or humane
society filed cruelty reports on the alleged dog killings. One said even
newspaper clips are considered hearsay, but be that as it may we want to see
them so we can verify that. Anything less is hearsay, even a web site you
claim would be hearsay since anyone can put anything on a web site about
another person.
The thing there is, we are promoting legislation and education/awareness,
we direct people to zoophile forums and web sites, files and FAQ's, essays and
writings so they can see for their own eyes what we are talking about, and so
they will decide and get involved or not.
I would hardly call that being bi-polar, revenge, "born again moral nutsyness"
animal rights, or guilt. Indeed, untill we began our efforts, most groups and
people turned a blind eye to all this, but now they can't.
We are sorry to hear of your friend's supposed bi-polarism and zoophilism,
bi-polarism is entirely a very easy to treat chemical condition. Of course
such a person can get councelling and treatment and change after realising
they were completely wrong about many things, especially the
bestiality/zoophilia issue which maybe they were convinced or really thought
was okay. That would be a positive thing especially if the person was a
zoophile, and then sought treatment and intervention and turned their life
around after seeing the pain they caused people trying to help, and that sex
with animals really is not consentual in any case. It would be even better
if afterwards with a clear head and frame of mind they go out and fight
against animal abuse and other causes they once supported in their previous
state of mind.
If you know any zoophiles like that, or any who want to change, feel free to
get them help or direct them to the Goodrich treatment site or some help It
can really make a major difference! If nothing else you can refer them on to
us and we will send them some resources to become normal again.
Regardless of any of that or us, unlike you Foz, anyone here can see with
their own eyes any of those currently operating zoophile forums and web
sites, and see the abuse and bestiality being promoted for themselves- not
relying on hearsay, unsubstantiated rumors, or babblings from people like you
who we are hoping to get legislation against.
> Our main web site for more information on this abuse,
> and how to help legislation, and how to draft a bill
> to include sexual abuse in state animal abuse laws, is
> located at;
> http://members.aol.com/animalsav/index.html
=I'll occasionally check out this fool's webpage. Here's something I =dridged
up from that online sewer:
REMOVE AMAZON AND BARNES AND NOBLE BANNERS! Both book sellers promote and
sell graphic bestiality promoting books authored by zoophiles, and allow
zoophiles to post their contact emails and book reviews.
=Typical self-righteous spew. If you don't like it .. ban it from everyone.
People have the right to remove banners from their web sites if they disagree
with what the banner goes to, freedom of speech that is not banning anything.
I can see you misunderstand that, you see, Amazon.com has a book written by a
zoophile (we have a review of it on our web site), the book is on the Amazon
site *along with* their allowing people to write book reviews which appear by
the book on the page.
Several zoophile friends of the author have naturally posted glowing reviews
of this book "The horseman:Obsessions of a zoophile", along *with* their
contact information so that anyone searching for a bestiality related book,
or (happens to search for a horse related book) who wants to "hook up" with
the zoophile community can find their little group easy, and learn all they
need to know about how to have sex with just about any animals, personal ads
to trade animals or get together etc.
We found a number of animal right's and welfare groups have "visit Amazon
.com" banners on their web sites, we informed them of this book and that by
promoting Amazon they are *also* promoting and encouraging the promotion and
sales of bestiality books. We suggested either animal groups remove those
banners in protest, or contact Amazon and tell them you want to see these
zoophile book reviews (and their email contact information) removed, or the
book itself. They can't legally sell child porn or books promoting sex with
children, or illegal porn. This book's text seems comes under the Roth test
and other federal obscenity statutes we pointed out to them. The book is
however available through inter-library loan programs and describes the
author's sexual activities with mares, that fails the Roth test alone.
Since this book concerns horses, people here might want to know about it as
further evidence of the zoophile promotions into mainstream and their ultimate
goals of laws against what they do being removed (or not being enacted)
They previously tried to start a newsgroup known as "Soc.support.zoophile" so
they could get an animal sex newsgroup into the main stream heirarchy to
garner more devotees and support.
It failed when many veterinary colleges and others found out about it and
voted NO! on the proposed group. With last year's announcement the zoophiles
were going on the Jerry Springer show to spread this coast to coast via
national TV to "spread the good word about bestiality", we decided it was
time to put an end to their then almost unfettered promotions of bestiality
as a lifestyle society and everyone else should accept.
That was when we put up our web site and began our efforts.
Now that the HSUS and two other groups are involved on their own with the
legislative aspetcs and promotions, we scaled our efforts down and let them go
at it full guns.
Then the case of buttons the mare came up and the cow, so we have been
working on those issues. We pretty much concluded our efforts on the Buttons
case for now as we said untill some more details come to us. We will post a
followup to that, or more details at that time, or about any new cases we
hear about.
We will be looking into the cow case and posting about it elsewhere since it
is not an equine related case. We turn you back over to the zoophiles and
their rantings about us, and how much they love animals and never tie them
etc.
Expect they will post glowing love testimonials, essays and consent stories to
sway you into accepting or ignoring bestiality which they try to claim is not
(their definition of) "zoophilia", that is what got them into the legislative
mess they are going to be in now.
They are trying to run from the fact that bestiality is bestiality is
zoosexuality (non existing word they made up) is zoophilia ( defined as one
who just loves animals, not defined as sex, but zoophiles admit their
activities include sex with animals): sex with an animal. Call it bestiality,
call it apple pie for all we or the laws care, it is all sex with an animal.
Their current writings about us was expected, and clearly is revenge/damage
control motivated. We don't have time for their psychobabble and theories,
and this is an equine group not a psychiatry group. We have more important
posts to make right now, and contacts to make that will benefit the animals
instead of this continued; "Peyton place" soap story.
Just like on the "Sally show", there are two sides to every story,
"he said", and what "she said"
Regards,
Mike and Pat
http://members.aol.com/animalsav
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Laura Friedman
(highlighting mine)
> In terms of credibility, Ms. Doll Stanley-Branscum publicly admits the
> midnight "rescue" of 78 hens belonging to someone else - an admission of
> be known as a common chicken thief.
<groan>
Just couldn't resist, could you Tom?
Laura
Tom Stovall
re: "Ms. Doll Stanley-Branscum publicly admits the midnight "rescue" of
78 hens belonging to someone else - an admission of FOWL play that would
cause someone convicted of the act here in Texas to be known as a common
chicken thief..."
>
> <groan>
>
> Just couldn't resist, could you Tom?
Nope, the temptation was too great. I mean, it was just laying there,
looking iridescent green, obscenely bloated, and gangrenous and nobody
was around, so I figured, "What the hell, nobody'll notice if I slip it
in."
ObH: No hay
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
ĄAlliteration sí; pun no!
Andrew Leech
says...
[substantial amount snipped, including extensive advertisement of "zoophilia"
web sites...]
>A 4 year old child can't say no and does what daddy tells them to do, it is the
>same with pets and animals, with the former being bred, raised and trained
>*never* to bite or show aggression especially to their owners. The latter being
>conditioned and trained to submit to people's will, along with a variety of
>control aid devices if needed; rope, halter, bits, spurs, whips, crushes,
>narrow stalls, head yokes, nose ring, bribes etc.
>
Go away and write out
"An animal is not a child, and a child is not an animal."
as many times as it takes you to understand the sentence. Unless of course
you are (1) an animal rights activist who believes the opposite, or (2) you
habitually eat children, make shoes from their skins, etc.
With people like this around, I am beginning to see how the California horse-
meat proposition got passed. "Yuck, that's horrid. Lets make a law against it!"
"But your law doesn't solve the problem at all, in fact it makes things worse."
"I don't care, it makes *me* feel good. Now, on to the next thing..."
Legislation as therapy for underemployed busybodies...
<sigh>
Andrew
Lorie
>Laura Friedman wrote:
>> <groan>
>>
>> Just couldn't resist, could you Tom?
>
>Nope, the temptation was too great. I mean, it was just laying there,
>looking iridescent green, obscenely bloated, and gangrenous and nobody
>was around, so I figured, "What the hell, nobody'll notice if I slip it
>in."
Just like those hens were just *laying* there when the fowl play took place,
eh?
Lorie
*New Arista breeches now on order -- in men's and women's sizes!
*Custom coolers, dress sheets, turnout rugs, and more from Jack's Mfg. now
available.
www.tackandapparel.com/
Tom Stovall
re: "The temptation was too great. I mean, it was just laying
there..."-TS
> Just like those hens were just *laying* there when the fowl play took place, eh?...
What the hell, do you think I'm lying?
ObH: No hay.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"I'm a farrier." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
A whole lot of junk snipped which we won't bother wasting our time with.
Foz: Where are those **newspaper articles**, or copies of **arrest reports**,
**humane society reports**, or animal right's magazine/newsletter articles
about all this supposed "dog slaughtering" and yada yada? Surely this dog
killer would have been arrested after your group had reported it or neighbors
reported it. Even the infamous Barry Herbeck was caught killing dogs and cats
and was charged, all reported in the media.
Anything less is hearsay. Let us see those arrest reports.
>and our web site or posts here now that a legislative
> movement is underway!
=Liar.
=There is no legislative movement.
No? Have you visited the HSUS site yet? Did you not read the board in your
forest chat about the animal welfare group in Switzerland.
Later today I'll post the text regarding that, you need to read it because
obviously you missed it!
>more animal related groups will become involved now
> that it has been announced.
=Then I'll be there fighting the good fight. And I will drag you out kicking
=and screaming with me .. along with your own abusive past.
Hey, we hope you have the power and money to go against the HSUS!!
I can see the TV spot ads now;
Open scene with a drunk man in a sleazy broken down room, dirty clothes and
unshaven. On the bed is an innocent looking female Dalmatian, maybe with
panties on to leave no doubt the intent.
As the camera pans on the man stumbling towards her while loosening
his belt, the caption reads: Help fight sexual abuse of innocent animals like
"Belle"
Scene closes.
As for the rest of you ramblings and your continued statements and
justifications of having sex with animals, your posts show the length people
will go to in order to maintain something like bestiality! If you were really
content and happy with your bestiality, you would never feel the need to go
out in public forums and spread the "good word", you would be content to
accept it and yourself and to heck with anyone else.
You, and the rest of your pals have serious emotional/mental/sexual
problems as evidenced by your continued promotions, explanations, essays and
more importantly; attempted justifications of bestiality on web sites, liove
chats, zoo-cons, newsgroups and all the rest.
Normal people don't go out writing web sites telling the world about how much
they like buggering their animals, or about how they are just "misunderstood"
If you were really happy and secure you would not need to do that.
As for the "kicking and screaming", hey, it's a free country and your efforts
against us to *protect* bestiality is so plastic anyone can see through it no
matter what you say or post.
Our efforts for the past *year*, our anti bestiality web sites and
mirrors, our anti bestiality legislation promoting posts and contacts
are all *current*, verifiable facts as to what we are doing.
You see sir, you are here *promoting* sex with animals, something 99% of
readers here find filthy and disgusting if not abuse, and doing so by
attacking us!
We are here *fighting against* bestiality by promoting education, awareness
and legislation. Do you see the difference now? People don't care about other
people and their personal stuff, they don't have the time or energy to bother
with other people's problems.
You post a whole bunch of garbage to help promote bestiality, and make claims,
fine, that is freedom of speech, but you can't provide any arrest reports, or
even one newspaper article about the supposed dog "slaughtering" which you
claimed for "effects"
We on the other hand can direct people to zoophile forums, zoo-con
announcements, and web sites, live sex chats, and they can see the stuff you
are promoting - that is what people will care about and can verify in 30
seconds or less.
So if you think you are going to annoy us, or get revenge against us to
protect your bestiality promotions by posting trash, you had better re-think
that idea because we don't care what you say or do, probably few others do
either since they find what you do sexually with animals disgusting, wouldn't
want their children learning it, and would probably support adding it to
animal abuse laws. If we don't bother responding to your ramblings it's only
because;
We don't care what you have to say, you are a zoophile and our efforts are
against you, as yours are against us. That hardly makes you or your pals
unbiased in any way shape or form.
We won't further waste our time addressing your pro-bestiality promotions
under the guise of supposedly "revealing" us.
This is after all an equine discussion group, your posts and our replies
like this here are getting very off topic.
We will however post the text regarding the HSUS anti bestiality campaign,
and the text from sleepy's forest regarding another group's anti bestiality
efforts in Switzerland. The latter was advertised in German and the zoophile
who posted it was almost catonic about the implications of it, he was very
concerned that an organised animal group had decided to go after zoophiles
because they know their "consenting love" postings and all the rest is just
zoophile propaganda like the NAMBLA's consensual sex with children writings
which no one really believes.
You can cry all night about the "deep love and consent Foz", but real people
are not fooled by that, least of all the HSUS manager in charge of the anti
bestiality campaign, or Carol Adams who authored; "Bestiality: the
unmentioned abuse", Criminology professor Piers Beirne in his article on what
you do being "interspecies sexual assault", or any of the others who have
been quoted.
You have very little to no support from the general public who finds sex with
animals revolting, disgusting and more. So Foz, regardless about us, you are
anything else, the movement is underway, like it or not here it comes!
Deborah Stevenson
>=Fozzy fox zoophile wrote;
>A whole lot of junk snipped which we won't bother wasting our time with.
>Foz: Where are those **newspaper articles**, or copies of **arrest reports**,
>**humane society reports**, or animal right's magazine/newsletter articles
>about all this supposed "dog slaughtering" and yada yada? Surely this dog
>killer would have been arrested after your group had reported it or neighbors
>reported it. Even the infamous Barry Herbeck was caught killing dogs and cats
>and was charged, all reported in the media.
>Anything less is hearsay. Let us see those arrest reports.
Precisely. On those incidents you have reported, too.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Ladling out sauce for the goose in Champaign, IL, USA
pro_a...@my-dejanews.com
> pro_a...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>Even the infamous Barry Herbeck was caught killing dogs and cats
>and was charged, all reported in the media.
>Anything less is hearsay. Let us see those arrest reports.
=Deborah writes;
=Precisely. On those incidents you have reported, too.
Deborah, I hate to say it, but NO, it's not even close, we provided **several
verifiable newspaper article** headlines about the mare killing along with
their publication dates along with the name of the paper, the name of one of
the staff writers for one of them, the newspaper's telephone number and
statement that the newspaper is willing to fax copies of these articles on
request. We also provided the DA's office number, name, and address for the
case.
We also provided the **owner's name of the dead mare, their city location,**
and their telephone number privately to people on our private mailing list.
And in the case of foz fox zoophile, he is publically attacking a specific
person who happens to be the one posting here and operating web sites
promoting outlawing bestiality- something he and his zoophile friends want to
continue seeing to spread and to not become illegal in all 50 states.
We on the other hand have been posting, emailing, faxing,phoning for a year
now about a broader *group* and their *abusive behavior* which is currently
legal in 22 states, their promoting that behavior as a sexual orientation
like being gay or straight, and teaching curious, swingers and impressionable
teens with FAQS and files, how-to writings etc.
We are also promoting and support the groups who are trying to add to animal
abuse laws-legislation against bestiality as an animal abuse issue, now who
could be against that but the one's who commit bestiality? If you are against
that Deborah, then you are *for* bestiality, you are either for bestiality or
against it, which is it? Keep in mind this would cover all animals not just
horses, so dogs and other popular pets like miniature horses would be
included. You may not feel rape of large mare abuse, but the same kind of
people will also do 50 pound female dogs which is abuse. So then you have
another choice, do we add just small animals to the abuse law and exclude
large mares? Do we go by size, say 90 pounds and less is abuse but over 91
pounds is not? Do we measure the man's penetrative length to determine if he
was abusive to a 50 pound dog by "bottoming out" and go from there?
It makes more sense to include all of it as an animal abuse issue, and that is
where it will go.
If you go by someone's statement that courts consider newspaper accounts to
be hearsay, as are eye witnesses, then guess what, you can't believe
*anything* you ever read in any paper, magazine or publication, nor can you
accept what is quoted or reported by anyone anywhere, even journalists make
minor mistakes.
Then your *only* option for proof, if you really need that level of security
in your life about animal abuse, is to personally see the police or FBI
arrest report or to witness the incident yourself. Even photos can be
doctored as can video.
If you see the incident yourself, and report it to others like in this forum,
that is ahhhh.. hearsay too as you become one of the "eye witnesses" like all
the rest huh? I am pretty certain the newspaper did not make up or fabricate
a story about a mare being dragged and killed. Even if you don't accept the
sexual abuse of the mare, even you would have to agree there was a mare and a
killing case of some kind or there wouldn't have been *several* newspaper
accounts or anything else.
If you are that much in doubt, hey feel free to personally phone the mare's
owner and ask them. Wouldn't you say the *owners* of the animal are best
qualified to answer questions about their mare's killing??
That is the only way you will ever get to the bottom of it, we can't do it for
you because anything we could post, you would have to believe, or have to
verify yourself, or we just go in circles here again.
Even if you do that, and you post here about your call, how is anyone here to
believe what you post? We would have to take your word for it that you even
called and what was said.
We will even provide you with their information again, and if you like- their
phone number privately although they are likely to be listed in directory
assistance and possibly even one of the on-line phone search engines;
Jackie and Terry Mimm
Boyle Mississippi
601 is the area code
If you dial 10-10-220 before the number the entire call will cost just 99
cents for 20 minutes.
Tom Stovall
re: "Anything less is hearsay. Let us see those arrest reports..." -anon
>DS> Precisely. On those incidents you have reported, too...
>Deborah, I hate to say it, but NO, it's not even close...
Sure it is. You made an allegation involving an arrest, I asked for a
case number; somebody else made an allegation involving an arrest, you
asked for a case number. Ms. Stevenson pointed out that if you ask for
a case number when someone makes a claim involving an arrest, you should
also be willing to provide a case number when YOU make an allegation
involving an arrest.
>We are also promoting and support the groups who are trying to add to >animal abuse laws-legislation against bestiality as an animal abuse >issue, now who could be against that but the one's who commit
>bestiality? If you are against that Deborah, then you are *for* >bestiality, you are either for bestiality or against it, which is >it?...
Are you really as imbecilic as you appear? Combining logical fallacies
does not mean that one cancels the other, it merely makes you look twice
as stupid. Logically, one can't make a statement in which one's premise
presumes the conclusion to be demonstrated, then attempt to ask a
question asking for only one of two answers when the question could be
refused or answers other than those offered might apply.
>If you go by someone's statement that courts consider newspaper >accounts to be hearsay...
Unless a story is an eye witness report, newspaper accounts ARE hearsay.
>as are eye witnesses...
An eye witness account is NOT hearsay.
>then guess what, you can't believe *anything* you ever read in any >paper, magazine or publication...
Are you silly enough think that if something is in print, it's true?
There's a hell of a difference between the Houston Chronicle and the
National Enquirer.
>nor can you accept what is quoted or reported by anyone anywhere, even >journalists make minor mistakes...
Some journalists make major mistakes, repeatedly. (See also, "yellow
journalism", "slanted news", "liberal/conservative press")
>Then your *only* option for proof, if you really need that level of >security in your life about animal abuse, is to personally see the >police or FBI arrest report or to witness the incident yourself...
Don't you really mean that you and yours find it inconvenient to have
others questioning both your claims and your motives? In terms of
numbers involved and damage done to the beast, why exactly would anyone
be MORE concerned with bestiality than with such issues as the treatment
of TWH show horses or the near universal use of grabs on flat racers?
Have you had that talk with your health care professional yet? You
really should. Your obsession with bestiality appears to be based on
prurient interest - not on any genuine concern for animals.
Robert Reimiller
>We are also promoting and support the groups who are trying to add to animal
>abuse laws-legislation against bestiality as an animal abuse issue, now who
>could be against that but the one's who commit bestiality? If you are against
>that Deborah, then you are *for* bestiality, you are either for bestiality or
>against it, which is it?
>
doesn't make one for or against it.
Dear Mike/Randy :
You are obsessed with sex. Causing physical harm to an animal should
be prosecuted based on the extent of the harm, not based on how that
harm was caused. Do you think a horse cares? Does a horse hurt any
less if you hit him over the head with a shovel, because it wasn't
sexual? Remember, we can't impose the sex-based guilt trips on a
horse (or any other animal) that we impose on other people.
The are a lot of places where the animal cruelty laws are very lax, if
prosecuted at all. Animals are regularly starved to death with just
a slap on the wrist from the authorities, that's the sort of thing
needs to be addressed, not your sexual fantasies.
The return address is invalid. DO NOT email to this address.
Khemofilly
>the beautifull act of a consentual relationship between a zoophile and
>his/her animal partner is not abuse, then this act of bestiality will not be
>covered.
BEAUTIFUL???!!! CONSENTUAL???!!!
YOU SICK SOB!!!!!!!!
YOU MAKE ME WANT TO VOMIT!!!!!