Update on Cleve Wells
betsey
against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
interesting to note the committee members all are professional
horsemen.
Mr Cleves, on his website (www.clevewells.com) posted the following
commentary (be warned, you'll see red...he's pretty pompous!)
Letter From Cleve in regards to Slow Lopin Scotch AQHA # 4803406
I wanted to address the situation that occurred at Cleve Wells Quarter
Horses in August of 2008. I want to be clear that I do not tolerate
the abuse of any animal.
On August 15th, 2008, I was competing at the Reichert Celebration in
Tulsa, Oklahoma. I had been at my place in Burleson until August 5,
2008, when I left to go to Oklahoma City for the youth world show and
help a youth exhibitor. My mother, who lives next door and is 70 years
old, called me on August 15, 2008 and told me that one of my customers
were at my place and were extremely upset. I told her that even though
the customer "cussed her out", let them remove their horse from my
place.
I asked my help, "what happened to Slow Lopin Scotch?" When they
didn't satisfactorily explain the condition of Slow Lopin Scotch, I
terminated my employees.
I had received Slow Lopin Scotch for training at the end of January
2008. Slow Lopin Scotch was primarily trained by assistant trainer,
Megan. I had actually only rode this horse one time. The owners knew
Megan was the primary trainer of Slow Lopin Scotch and they were fine
with it. They had visited my place three different times previously
and were happy with the horse's progress. When I left to go to the
Youth World, Megan remained at my place until August 10th, 2008 when
she brought eight horses to me for the Reichert Celebration. I had
some temporary help assisting her in riding the horses while we were
gone. In addition to that, I had a full-time employee who fed and took
care of the horses at my place.
When I left on August 5, 2008, Slow Lopin Scotch was fine. He had his
feet done on July 10, 2008 and July 23, 2008, he had his teeth floated
on July 18, 2008 and he was wormed by the vet on June 30, 2008. The
blacksmith, the Vet, and the Equine dentist all reported that Slow
Lopin Scotch was in good condition suffering from no abuse or
infection on the dates they worked on him.
My wife Jana had been with me at the Reichert Celebration. When this
problem arose, Jana went back to Burleson. She called me on August 21,
2008 when she found a note from the SPCA investigator. Art Munoz of
the SPCA office in Dallas, Texas had been assigned the investigator on
this case. Mr. Munoz left me a note, "The horses look good, contact
me." My wife also found a card from Detective Steve Shaw from the
Johnson County Sheriffs Office. I called Detective Shaw on August 21,
2008 and he requested permission to inspect the horses, which I
promptly gave him. Detective Shaw and Detective Windham came out to my
place on September 4, 2008. In addition, Detective Shaw and Detective
Windham came to my place on October 31, 2008. They inspected the
horses and found that horses were fine and commented that my place
looked "extremely clean." They inspected the bits that I use and found
that the bits were fine.
I was upset that the owners chose to file criminal charges against me.
I was also upset that the owners deemed it necessary to have the SPCA
investigate me. The Johnson County District Attorney's office has
decided not to pursue a case against me. The SPCA has cleared me of
all charges. I was upset that the owners sent a picture of Slow Lopin
Scotch to the NSBA with the statement, "I am an American Quarter
Horse. Please be my advocate."
I have attempted to resolve this situation with the owners and
accepted the NSBA's proposal of Binding Arbitration or Mediation with
a retired Dallas Judge. Unfortunately, despite three (3) telephone
calls and a letter, the owners refused to accept the NSBA's proposal
and we were unable to proceed with Mediation or Arbitration. I don't
know what else I could have done to "make it right."
It has been alleged that a bay stallion located in my show barn next
to Slow Lopin Scotch, had similar injuries to the injuries of Slow
Lopin Scotch. This is NOT TRUE. The horse was inspected by Mr. Art
Munoz, Detective Shaw and Detective Windham. These statements about
the bay stallion were FALSE.
Also, in attempts to resolve this situation, I waived my Fifth
Amendment right against self-incrimination and voluntarily gave the
Johnson County Sheriff's office a statement about what I knew on the
case and fully answered all the questions they had. I had asked
Detective Shaw to show me the pictures of Slow Lopin Scotch but he
could not because the case was ongoing. I did not see the pictures
until late November 2008 when Chad Pierce, AQHA's attorney sent me a
copy. As a result, I underestimated the injuries to the horse, but I
had also read on the Internet that Slow Lopin Scotch had placed second
in an Open Pleasure Cass in October of 2008, less than two months
after he was removed from my place.
The owners also filed charges against me with the AQHA. I went in
front of the Professional Horseman's Committee with the AQHA on
February 17, 2008, in Amarillo, Texas. I was being charged with
violation of AQHA Rule 478, which regulates my conduct as a
professional horseman. It was my position that the only conduct that I
committed in violation of AQHA Rule 478 was that I made a poor choice
in the employee that I hired. Unfortunately, the Professional
Horseman's Committee disagreed and recommended to the Executive
Committee that my membership in the Professional Horseman's
Association be revoked. While I disagree with that decision, I fully
understand why the decision was made. I know the Committee was placed
in a difficult situation and had to make a difficult decision.
In hindsight, I would have done things differently. However, I was
upset when Mr. Holly and Ms. Marrs attempted to secure a criminal
indictment against me and I had not even seen the photographs.
As a professional, I have stayed quiet and allowed the situation to be
handled properly through both legal channels and the American Quarter
Horse Association. I am proud to say that after 35 years of training
hundreds of horses, not a single person who has put a horse in my barn
has come forward with anything other than a compliment. I want to
thank my clients and note that I have not lost a single client as a
result of these allegations.
I've been appalled at some of the comments on the Internet. Not only
are they NOT TRUE; they are slanderous to both me and my family. I do
not believe it is fair to "try the case" against me on the Internet.
People were urged to call, write or e-mail my sponsors, which they
did. People were urged to call, write or e-mail the Districts' of
Attorney's office, which they did. Finally, people were urged to call,
write or e-mail the members of the Professional Horseman's Committee
before our hearing to put pressure on them. They even posted their e-
mail addresses on the Internet.
I want to thank everyone who stood by me during this ordeal. I want to
tell everyone that I realize how lucky I am to have the friends and
family that I do. I want to say how important it is for everyone to
realize how great the Equine Industry is; I cannot even begin to
describe it. I would like to thank Pleasurehorse.com for maintaining
their integrity and professionalism as a web master. I would like to
thank the NSBA for their support and their efforts on both sides of
the situation and trying to get this resolved rather than have it
played out over the Internet. And, I want everyone to know that they
are welcome as always to come ride, come watch, or just come by and
visit. Please call me any time that you think I may be able to assist
you.
LandShark
> The PHC arm of the AQHA met on the 17th to review the allegations
> against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
> Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
> interesting to note the committee members all are professional
> horsemen.
Oh...my... Gawd! I don't have the time or the inclination to dissect
this crap. I *will* say this, however, mediation or abitration,
binding or not, is a civil matter. It has nothing to do with criminal
matters.
Also, to blame a former employee...? Oh, so wrong! This guy should
rot in prison.
At least the PHC of AQHA 'Good ol' Boys' didn't defend him.
Wonderful!
Ruth W.
Caelan
> I want to thank everyone who stood by me during this ordeal. I want to
> tell everyone that I realize how lucky I am to have the friends and
> family that I do. I want to say how important it is for everyone to
> realize how great the Equine Industry is; I cannot even begin to
> describe it. I would like to thank Pleasurehorse.com for maintaining
> their integrity and professionalism as a web master. I would like to
> thank the NSBA for their support and their efforts on both sides of
> the situation and trying to get this resolved rather than have it
> played out over the Internet. And, I want everyone to know that they
> are welcome as always to come ride, come watch, or just come by and
> visit. Please call me any time that you think I may be able to assist
> you.
Cleve Wells is a win-at-all-costs horse abuser. I saw the photos and
vet statements given by two DVMs about Slow Lopin Scotch's injuries
and I don't believe a word of this rebuttal. Blaming it on the
assistant was low. If the assistant was abusing horses to the degree
that Slow Lopin Scotch was tortured, the person would have been canned
by a competant trainer long ago. You don't get systemic injuries and
wicked infections like that poor animal had over a weekend, Cleve. The
horse was brutalised with spurs and had broken teeth. The infected
holes in it's sides from brutal spurring were sickening. I was an AQHA
member when I had Jo and I am seriously thinking about getting a QH
for my husband, but if the association doesn't remove Cleve from the
membership, I won't buy a QH or support them. In such a clear-cut case
of serious abuse, why are they hesitating about cutting him loose?
Does anyone really believe Cleve was innocently at a show totally
oblivious to the fact that Slow Lopin Scotch was locked in a stall
with puss oozing from holes in his sides and with broken teeth? Thank
god the owner came and checked on the horse or who knows what would
have happened to it. How exactly did Cleve think he would get away
with that? Does he think the owner would come and get the horse and
not notice, even it was healed at that point, that the horse was
mentally terrorized and had serious scars on it's side and broken
teeth?? I can tell you that I notice every nick and scratch on my
horse let alone huge, obvious wounds!
I can't stand people who abuse animals. It's just sick and disgusting
beyond comprehension.
Hunter Hampton
<dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was an AQHA
>member when I had Jo and I am seriously thinking about getting a QH
>for my husband, but if the association doesn't remove Cleve from the
>membership, I won't buy a QH or support them. In such a clear-cut case
>of serious abuse, why are they hesitating about cutting him loose?>
I wouldn't not buy a QH because of it, that's a bit like cutting off
your nose to spite your face.
If the AQHA does nothing I can see not being a member, but you don't
have to be to buy a QH.
>Does anyone really believe Cleve was innocently at a show totally
>oblivious to the fact that Slow Lopin Scotch was locked in a stall
>with puss oozing from holes in his sides and with broken teeth? Thank
>god the owner came and checked on the horse or who knows what would
>have happened to it. How exactly did Cleve think he would get away
>with that? Does he think the owner would come and get the horse and
>not notice, even it was healed at that point, that the horse was
>mentally terrorized and had serious scars on it's side and broken
>teeth?? I can tell you that I notice every nick and scratch on my
>horse let alone huge, obvious wounds!
>
>I can't stand people who abuse animals. It's just sick and disgusting
>beyond comprehension.>
I agree about abuse.... That said, it is possible to hire the wrong
person. I'm not defending him, but I can't say for sure he knew what
was going on.
He doesn't sound like a very hands on trainer....
Hunter
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Well. I know of at least one professional horseman who was appalled
by this. Of course, said person had stories to tell--not of this
particular person, but of others.
Otherwise, I'm appalled that he ducked responsibility. The condition
of the horse pictured did not match his description. He screwed up.
He should have been monitoring the horse closer, IMO.
jrw
Caelan
>
> I wouldn't not buy a QH because of it, that's a bit like cutting off
> your nose to spite your face.
>
> If the AQHA does nothing I can see not being a member, but you don't
> have to be to buy a QH.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't *need* a QH. There are
plenty of Paints, Apps and stock-type grades which would be perfectly
acceptable for a husband horse. In that capacity, the horse would only
need to be dead broke, sound and healthy. Why support an organization
who, by not immediately expelling abusers, is tacitly endorsing them?
Quarter Horses are a wonderful and versatile breed, but abuse is abuse
and I vote with my wallet which seems to be the only way anyone pays
attention.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<landsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
FYI, according to this source, the committee included Lynn Palm among
others.
http://gohorseshow.com/article.cfm?articleID=23666
jrw
David Geesaman
In a world where money is the only message that absolutely reaches the
other party, be it directly or indirectly, voting with the dollar is
essential.
Dave
Jane Saranac
"Caelan" <dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32432c72-2a4d-432b...@u39g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
a dime off of
my QHs or any other QHs purchased; the only way they make money
is by membership in AQHA or buying into any AQHA-sponsored
products or events, neither of which I hold or do. To say that not
buying a QH is "voting with your wallet" is like saying you wouldn't
adopt a dog from a humane society because one humane society
somewhere in the world isn't very good. One can buy an AQHA registered horse
and then
not became an AQHA member or keep up with the dues,
registration fees, etc. and let them lapse. And there are thousands
of QHs which are not registered and never have been. If you don't want
one, don't buy one, but I personally do not regard that as effective voting
with
one's pocketbook.
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> I agree about abuse.... That said, it is possible to hire the wrong
> person. I'm not defending him, but I can't say for sure he knew what
> was going on.
I don't think anyone would throw their asst. trainer under the bus in
this fashion if the asst. trainer wasn't the guilty party. Innocent
people who are thrown under the bus tend to yell a lot and not just
about the immediate incident.
That said, he was incompetent in hiring her without more or a trial
period where these issues might have surfaced. Also, there must have
been witnesses to some of this.
sharon
Jane Saranac
"Ocean of Nuance" <lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:707l2eF...@mid.individual.net...
> Hunter Hampton wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> I agree about abuse.... That said, it is possible to hire the wrong
>> person. I'm not defending him, but I can't say for sure he knew what
>> was going on.
>
> I don't think anyone would throw their asst. trainer under the bus in this
> fashion if the asst. trainer wasn't the guilty party.
Are you really that naive Sharon?
People who are dishonest will throw people under a bus any day of
the week if it will save their skin. Moreover, even if he didn't do
the spurring himself, he is STILL the guilty party.
Innocent
> people who are thrown under the bus tend to yell a lot and not just about
> the immediate incident.
>
> That said, he was incompetent in hiring her without more or a trial period
> where these issues might have surfaced. Also, there must have been
> witnesses to some of this.
>
> sharon
The buck stops with the boss. If you don't have the proper screening,
supervision and safeguards in place to prevent abuse like that, you
might as well have done it yourself. If my secretary screws something
up, I screw it up. If you don't have someone in charge to make sure
incidents like that don't happen when you leave, you don't leave.
It's not a difficult concept. And you certainly never create or permit
an environment in which any employee would think it was okay or
would be condoned, that they could get away with such tactics. You notice
he doesn't talk about the preventive measures he has in place to
prevent situations like that, because I'd bet you a whole lot that
he doesn't even have written policies. He's probably a nod and
a wink kind of employer and all he wants is to look good. As long as
all is going well it's fine but when the shit hits the fan, it's someone
else's fault.
Well, here's some news, Cleve, if it isn't your fault, it isn't your
success either. I should
feel sympathy for you because a customer whose horse was
brutalized "cussed out" your 70 year old mother (if that even
occurred)? Quit your whining and be a man. You think you
haven't lost business? I think you have your head up your rear. You
and A-Rod would make a fine team.
betsey
> "Ocean of Nuance" <lizzardwomanRM...@nc.rr.com> wrote in messagenews:707l2eF...@mid.individual.net...
Jane-
Gawdohmighty...i love you!
And you are absolutely correct....he DID throw her under the bus, and
he did absolutely know what was going on...what is infuriating to me
is the "i hired temporary help, yada yada yada"...it's all excuses and
not once did he apologize for that poor horse.
not too long ago, another BNT (big name trainer) was also acused of
abuse, and yeah, in that instance, his assistant DID do it...but he
did not throw that individual under bus, rather he publicly stated
that he was at fault, as it happened under his name, in his barn, in
his care, custody and control.
Now..contrast this all with another BNT in the reining world, who,
deliberately downsized his operations so he could watch what was going
on at all times. THAT man is good to his horses.
Hunter Hampton
<dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why support an organization
>who, by not immediately expelling abusers, is tacitly endorsing them?
Why do you think buying a QH is supporting the organization?
I have two and I'm not supporting the AQHA.
Hunter
Hunter Hampton
<jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>No one _needs_ a QH. Of course do what you like. But the AQHA doesn't make
>a dime off of
>my QHs or any other QHs purchased; the only way they make money
>is by membership in AQHA or buying into any AQHA-sponsored
>products or events, neither of which I hold or do.
Exactly.....
Hunter
Hunter Hampton
wrote:
>
>not too long ago, another BNT (big name trainer) was also acused of
>abuse, and yeah, in that instance, his assistant DID do it...but he
>did not throw that individual under bus, rather he publicly stated
>that he was at fault, as it happened under his name, in his barn, in
>his care, custody and control.
Here's a worse case....
http://www.freewebs.com/tessasordeal/index.htm
I hope the trainer is exposed when the lawsuit is over.
This guy should be strung up.
Hunter
Bill Kambic
wrote:
>The PHC arm of the AQHA met on the 17th to review the allegations
>against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
>Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
>interesting to note the committee members all are professional
>horsemen.
<snipped for brevity>
Us Texas Lawyers call this a "swearin' match."
If, in fact, his underling was responsible then she ought to go "under
the bus." This, however, does not releive the boss of responsibility
for her conduct. Sanctions can be had against him solely upon a
theory of "ineffective supervision of underlings."
As far as criminal charges are concerned, the state must prove each
and every element of a charged offense beyond a reasonable doubt.
Again, given the evidence, I'm not surprised the DA might decline to
prosecute. That does NOT mean the bastard is innocent, only that the
DA does not think evidence beyond a reasonable doubt could be
presented to a jury.
The owners are under no duty to accept mediation/arbitration. This is
a civil remedy in lieu of a civil trial. If the owners are mad
enough, and have pockets deep enough, they may want a trial so that a
full exposition of the fact "on the record" can be had.
Civil trials generally decide cases on a "preponderance of the
evidence." If this is litigated as a strict contract case I think Mr.
Wells is in deep kimchi. If they complicate it with tort claims then
it gives the defendant lots of room to manuever and all bets are off.
LandShark
Awwww. Don't penalize the horse because it's QH. Just don't become
a member of AQHA or register said horse in your name.
Sonny's papers were 'lost' before we got him. I have notarized
affidavits from the prior owners re: sale & papers. Have I registered
him in our names? No. Why not? Cuz I spent 6 months getting the
registration of a horse straightened out. AQHA was *not* a lot of
help. I refused to support them or bother with it further. I still
have a great horse. Besides, in 3 years they will consider him dead
(unless I inform them otherwise).
Ruth W.
(Not an AQHA fan)
Lynn Tucker
news:adcsp4p4ls4s7js40...@4ax.com...
The committee also included Patti Carter from Ontario. She did some training
on my horse and her mother coaches me.
Lynn........Ontario, Canada
Lynn Tucker
The thing I would like to have seen in Mr Wells response was an apology to
the owners of this horse. Mr Wells took on the responsibility of the care
and training of this horse. He failed to do so by leaving the horse in the
care of a temporary employee that was not being supervised. Very
unprofessional in my opinion. Yes, he cannot be everywhere but he sure can
make sure that his staff is trustworthy and knowledgeable. He cannot duck
that responsibility.
Lynn.......Ontario, Canada
JC Dill
> The PHC arm of the AQHA met on the 17th to review the allegations
> against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
> Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
> interesting to note the committee members all are professional
> horsemen.
>
> Mr Cleves, on his website (www.clevewells.com) posted the following
> commentary (be warned, you'll see red...he's pretty pompous!)
> When I left on August 5, 2008, Slow Lopin Scotch was fine. He had his
> feet done on July 10, 2008 and July 23, 2008, he had his teeth floated
> on July 18, 2008 and he was wormed by the vet on June 30, 2008. The
> blacksmith, the Vet, and the Equine dentist all reported that Slow
> Lopin Scotch was in good condition suffering from no abuse or
> infection on the dates they worked on him.
I'm calling BS on this. Given the cost and easy of application with
today's paste wormers, there is no reason a professional trainer would
have a vet worm a horse, especially a horse that had its teeth done 2
weeks earlier - if it needed professional assistance to worm the horse
it would have been done at that time, not "done by a vet" 2 weeks later.
It also makes no sense to say that he had his feet done on July 10 and
again 2 weeks later on July 23.
> I had asked
> Detective Shaw to show me the pictures of Slow Lopin Scotch but he
> could not because the case was ongoing. I did not see the pictures
> until late November 2008 when Chad Pierce, AQHA's attorney sent me a
> copy. As a result, I underestimated the injuries to the horse, but I
> had also read on the Internet that Slow Lopin Scotch had placed second
> in an Open Pleasure Cass in October of 2008, less than two months
> after he was removed from my place.
He "read on the internet" that this horse was shown just 2 months after
being removed from his place, so that means none of what was shown in
the photos is real? Just how stupid does he think we are? I'm sure
that Nicole Marr would be happy to supply new photos to show that the
horse is still healing and that there is no way he was shown less than 2
months after the injuries shown in the photos taken when he was removed
from CW's place.
jc
Hunter Hampton
<ltu...@ist.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Mr Wells took on the responsibility of the care
>and training of this horse. He failed to do so by leaving the horse in the
>care of a temporary employee that was not being supervised. Very
>unprofessional in my opinion. Yes, he cannot be everywhere but he sure can
>make sure that his staff is trustworthy and knowledgeable. He cannot duck
>that responsibility.
This brings up a point. I've never left a horse with a trainer, but if
I did that's who I would expect to train the horse... not some
underling.
Hunter
Hunter Hampton
<landsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Besides, in 3 years they will consider him dead
>(unless I inform them otherwise).
>
>Ruth W.
>(Not an AQHA fan)
I suspect mine are long dead according to them )c:
Hunter
Ocean of Nuance
I think he claimed the owners knew the asst. trainer was handling the
training.
sharon
Caelan
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:50 -0800 (PST), Caelan
>
> > Why support an organization
> >who, by not immediately expelling abusers, is tacitly endorsing them?
>
> Why do you think buying a QH is supporting the organization?
>
> I have two and I'm not supporting the AQHA.
>
> Hunter
But by buying them, you created a market for them. I assume they are
registered so the breeder paid AQHA to register the horses presumably
to increase their marketability. Papered horses sell for more money
than grades in most cases, do they not? Indirectly, the AQHA benefited
financially from having the breeder reg. the horses which the breeder
did in order to make his stock more appealing to you, the buyer.
Hunter Hampton
<dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>But by buying them, you created a market for them.>
Maybe if I bought them as foals... but second hand horses do not
create a market.
I assume they are
>registered so the breeder paid AQHA to register the horses presumably
>to increase their marketability. Papered horses sell for more money
>than grades in most cases, do they not?>
My two are papered.... actually, all three were..... and well bred....
good names on those papers, names most people have heard of....
I paid $500.00 for Bailey, 20.00 more than the meat market offered.
$800.00 for Rob. I forget what I paid for Bars Wimpy King, under
$1,000.00 and I got a Stubben Siegfried with him.
There are so many QHs, I think I've heard there are more QHs in the
USA, than *all* other breeds put together.
AQHA is a registry.... don't register and don't join they don't make
money.
> Indirectly, the AQHA benefited
>financially from having the breeder reg. the horses which the breeder
>did in order to make his stock more appealing to you, the buyer.
Yes, but the money has been spent. Buy the horse and don't register
it. Or... someone else will and will register it.
Hunter
CM Higdon
<snip>
One can buy an AQHA registered horse
> and then
> not became an AQHA member or keep up with the dues,
> registration fees, etc. and let them lapse. And there are thousands
> of QHs which are not registered and never have been. �If you don't want
> one, don't buy one, but I personally do not regard that as effective voting
> with
> one's pocketbook.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, one can buy an AQHA horse, but in order to have the papers
transfered to your name, you must either become a member, or
pay that equivalent amouth of money + the transfer fee to get
the horse transfered.
Most people who buy a registered horse want the papers in their
name. Don't fool yourself. The AQHA makes a butt-ton of money
off of transfers and the memberships that are required in order to
get that done.
The AQHA is the largest horse registry in the world. Registration and
transfer fees are very important to them. By buying a registered
horse,
and not paying dues/registration/transfer fees, you are effectively
voting with your pocketbook as far as the AQHA is concerned.
Camille
Sue Leopold
> The PHC arm of the AQHA met on the 17th to review the allegations
> against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
> Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
> interesting to note the committee members all are professional
> horsemen.
They stripped him of his professional status?! He should have
been expelled from the AQHA. Apparently he was not.
This is outrageous. USEF (formerly AHSA) for all its warts
had the frickin' integrity to expel those who had horses
killed to collect insurance. You know what? What Mr.
Wells did was Every Bit As Bad as the notorious Horse
Killers.
And they have denied reinstatement to Paul Valliere,
Barney Ward and others.
What happened to that horse under his care was
*horrific* And I am sure it is just one example. My
gawd, I think electrocution via an alligator clamp is
preferable to this. At least the agony is brief and it
ends.
AQHA removed itself from the umbrella of the AHSA
(now USEF) long ago. I am not one to think the USEF
is perfect but AQHA showing is rotten to the core. They
drug, they bleed, they hang 'em from the rafters, they
ride, ride, ride til dead. Yeah, there are damned fine
trainers like yours and Joyce's (now, *there's* a
horseman) but skanks like Cleve Wells are rife
in the AQHA world.
To the AQHA - for gawd's sake grow a pair and at
least remove these huge scabs from your membership.
Dear god, he makes Barney Ward and Paul Valliere
look like saints. And man, I did not *ever* think I would
say that.
It makes me cry. Hell, I'll say it, it makes gods cry.
Sue Leopold
> Well. I know of at least one professional horseman who was appalled
> by this. Of course, said person had stories to tell--not of this
> particular person, but of others.
That's cool. I am glad to see there is some integrity left in
the QH showing world. Of course, you live around it. :-)
>
> Otherwise, I'm appalled that he ducked responsibility. The condition
> of the horse pictured did not match his description. He screwed up.
> He should have been monitoring the horse closer, IMO.
In the eyes of the USEF - the trainer is responsible for the horse.
Owner slips in and drugs the horse and the horse tests
positive much to the trainer's bewilderment. Owner walks
away; trainer takes the suspension and the fine.
I don't care if he ducked - it is up to the AQHA to hold him
responsible for his employees' actions.
(Of course, his argument rings just as true as the trainer
who claimed the show hunter who tested positive for
cocaine did so as a result of environmental exposure
to an addicted groom. Yeah right.)
Sue Leopold
>
> I wouldn't not buy a QH because of it, that's a bit like cutting off
> your nose to spite your face.
>
> If the AQHA does nothing I can see not being a member, but you don't
> have to be to buy a QH.
True that. If you refused to buy a horse of any breed where
abuses occurred there would be no horses to buy. :-(
> I agree about abuse.... That said, it is possible to hire the wrong
> person. I'm not defending him, but I can't say for sure he knew what
> was going on.
>
> He doesn't sound like a very hands on trainer....
Citiing USEF rules here - he has Care, Custody and Control of
said horse. The responsibility for that horse's condition is on
*his* head. If he hires some abusing idjit, then for heaven's
sake, can his/her ass and get the horse proper veterinarian
attention and *do not* take him to a show to live in misery.
Even the biggest names in H/J land know what is going
on in their barn (good or bad) I know, I've been there, I've
seen them going through the barns, checking the med
list (ow) and freaking overlooking their charges.
If he did not abuse this horse personally but let some
idiot do so, then he is just wrong as if he had done it
himself.
Sue Leopold
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> Us Texas Lawyers call this a "swearin' match."
>
> If, in fact, his underling was responsible then she ought to go "under
> the bus." This, however, does not releive the boss of responsibility
> for her conduct. Sanctions can be had against him solely upon a
> theory of "ineffective supervision of underlings."
>
> As far as criminal charges are concerned, the state must prove each
> and every element of a charged offense beyond a reasonable doubt.
> Again, given the evidence, I'm not surprised the DA might decline to
> prosecute. That does NOT mean the bastard is innocent, only that the
> DA does not think evidence beyond a reasonable doubt could be
> presented to a jury.
This is true. However the AHSA (now USEF) successfully defended
its expulsion of George Lindeman (one of the Insurance Horse
Killers in the mid 80s) from membership when he brought suit
against them about said expulsion. Memory grows hazy :-)
but I believe the court said that the AHSA had the right to
decide who could "play in their sandbox" pursuant to their
rules, one of which is that no member should act in a conduct
detrimental to the organization as a whole.
Obviously, electrocuting a horse for insurance money might
fall into that category.
The entity derelict here is the AQHA. Granted, they have a
very big PR budget and MIGHT be able to cover this up.
They would do best to expel this man. He was the trainer,
he was responsible for the care and custody of this horse
and if some idiot minion abused the horse, it's on his head.
CM Higdon
<snip>
> I'm calling BS on this. �Given the cost and easy of application with
> today's paste wormers, there is no reason a professional trainer would
> have a vet worm a horse, especially a horse that had its teeth done 2
> weeks earlier - if it needed professional assistance to worm the horse
> it would have been done at that time, not "done by a vet" 2 weeks later.
> � It also makes no sense to say that he had his feet done on July 10 and
> again 2 weeks later on July 23.
horses when they give vaccinations . It isn't uncommon for the vet to
come monthly or even more often depending on the size of the barn.
This way, all the horses are done the same day, and the barn owner/
trainer knows it's been done. At our barn, usually floating teeth
was the only thing done that visit. Vaccinations and deworming were
usually done a different visit. I am not defending this piece of
dirt, only saying that it is a common practice for vet's to administer
dewormer.
<snip>
>
> jc
Camille
LandShark
wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:39:37 -0800 (PST), LandShark
>
> >Besides, in 3 years they will consider him dead
> >(unless I inform them otherwise).
>
> >Ruth W.
> >(Not an AQHA fan)
>
> I suspect mine are long dead according to them )c:
>
> Hunter
Probably. As you know, Hunter, AQHA deems them dead at 25 years old.
Ruth W.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
>betsey <twox...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The PHC arm of the AQHA met on the 17th to review the allegations
>> against Cleve Wells. They have recommended that the Executive
>> Committee strip Mr. Wells of his professional horseman status. It's
>> interesting to note the committee members all are professional
>> horsemen.
>
>They stripped him of his professional status?! He should have
>been expelled from the AQHA. Apparently he was not.
This was a committee. It's been referred on, with recommendation
to do more. Check the gohorseshow link I put up.
*That* decision will be made next month--and in AQHA, losing your
"Professional Horseman" status *is* a big deal.
jrw
Sue Leopold
> This was a committee. It's been referred on, with recommendation
> to do more. Check the gohorseshow link I put up.
OK cool. Will look it up. Glad to know about the recommendation.
No, make that relieved.
>
> *That* decision will be made next month--and in AQHA, losing your
> "Professional Horseman" status *is* a big deal.
I did not know that. I'm just a USEF hunter/jumper sort of gal and
disciplinary matters flow directly through the Hearing Committee.
I think western riding is great. I love a nice QH or Paint or
App. I don't love what some "trainers" do to them.
I also love hunters and jumpers. I abhor some of the
training practices. You'll rap a horse over my cold dead
body. (And there are those who would see that as a
great way to "sharpen-up" Woo hoo, that dead woman
under the jump ought to get him to get those knees
up. LOL)
I think the governing bodies for all disciplines need big
teeth. Big, steely teeth.
David Geesaman
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:23:51 -0800 (PST), Caelan
> <dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But by buying them, you created a market for them.>
>
> Maybe if I bought them as foals... but second hand horses do not
> create a market.
If less people are buying them secondhand, the value of them foals goes
down. Kinda like cars with extreme depreciation. It all trickles up.
Yes, this stuff is rather academic and distant from any particular
breeder who deserves much worse. But sometimes I believe you just gotta
walk away and let your one economic vote count as zero. I'm not saying
this is that case, but ultimately it's the one thing that all consumers
have.
Dave
betsey
Sue I agree with you on most everything you write...and as Joyce
said...what happened on tuesday was NOT a hearing, but a committee
meeting. that they want and recommend action be taken is a HUGE deal
in the AQHA sandbox.
however, unless the executive committee bans him from AQHA
functions...I do have my doubts as to how this will affect him
negatively. What is interesting, is that Horse and RIder pulled his
upcoming article (it won't be published) and from what i've heard,
severed all professional ties with him. Additionally, I could be
wrong, but even if he were banned from AQHA, he could still partake in
NSBA stuff...sigh.
betsey
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>
>Sue I agree with you on most everything you write...and as Joyce
>said...what happened on tuesday was NOT a hearing, but a committee
>meeting. that they want and recommend action be taken is a HUGE deal
>in the AQHA sandbox.
>
>however, unless the executive committee bans him from AQHA
>functions...I do have my doubts as to how this will affect him
>negatively. What is interesting, is that Horse and RIder pulled his
>upcoming article (it won't be published) and from what i've heard,
>severed all professional ties with him. Additionally, I could be
>wrong, but even if he were banned from AQHA, he could still partake in
>NSBA stuff...sigh.
Wells is taking a huge hit financially and in his credibility status.
Losing that Professional Horseman status lost him a chunk more
sponsors. Losing Horse and Rider lost him visibility, credibility,
and I suspect even more sponsors.
For someone like him, getting hit in the pocketbook is a big, big
thing.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
>Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>> This was a committee. It's been referred on, with recommendation
>> to do more. Check the gohorseshow link I put up.
>
>OK cool. Will look it up. Glad to know about the recommendation.
>No, make that relieved.
Yeah. This was just the council for the Professional Horsemen within
AQHA. IIRC, the main body talks about it next month.
Still could be a hand-slapping, but this decision hits Wells in one
place it counts--the pocketbook. And it means that this decision will
show up in the AQHA journal of record--The Quarter Horse Journal (I
don't get it but I do have access to it).
>>
>> *That* decision will be made next month--and in AQHA, losing your
>> "Professional Horseman" status *is* a big deal.
>
>I did not know that. I'm just a USEF hunter/jumper sort of gal and
>disciplinary matters flow directly through the Hearing Committee.
If Wells had been involved in a Western USEF discipline (reining),
then it would have gone to them as well. As it is, the Professional
Horseman status means that he's stripped of an advertising and
promotional tool, and I suspect means it hits him in the pocketbook
with certain big name advertisers for whom that title is
important--we're talking Professional's Choice, various saddle pad
manufacturers (a bigger deal in Western than the English disciplines,
for obvious reasons--a good Western pad could run as high as
$200-$300), and other endorsers affliated with AQHA. Losing sponsors
is going to have to hurt Wells, even if his clients mostly stay with
him.
Additionally, I think Horse and Rider's pulling the Cleve Wells
article for the March issue was a big, big thing which indicated the
handwriting on the wall. Lynn Palm was on that committee and Lynn
Palm does a *lot* of stuff for H&R. I suspect that, given the choice,
the mag would go with Palm over Wells. I think most horsemen with a
good attitude would go for Palm over Wells.
>I think western riding is great. I love a nice QH or Paint or
>App. I don't love what some "trainers" do to them.
>
>I also love hunters and jumpers. I abhor some of the
>training practices. You'll rap a horse over my cold dead
>body. (And there are those who would see that as a
>great way to "sharpen-up" Woo hoo, that dead woman
>under the jump ought to get him to get those knees
>up. LOL)
>
>I think the governing bodies for all disciplines need big
>teeth. Big, steely teeth.
Yep. The difference between AQHA and the USEF is that AQHA is a breed
organization first and a show org second. That said, the QH Journal
always has a list of people, horses, and organizations who've lost
their status or been banned--unless I'm confusing that list with the
lists in Equestrian magazine.
One thing I wish I knew was the discipline background of the PHC. I
know Palm rides dressage (and her SO is a hunt/jump person), so she's
got ties to the USEF. Wonder how many of the others also have USEF
links, and are aware of what USEF would have done in this situation?
jrw
Bill Kambic
Leopold) wrote:
>This is true. However the AHSA (now USEF) successfully defended
>its expulsion of George Lindeman (one of the Insurance Horse
>Killers in the mid 80s) from membership when he brought suit
>against them about said expulsion. Memory grows hazy :-)
>but I believe the court said that the AHSA had the right to
>decide who could "play in their sandbox" pursuant to their
>rules, one of which is that no member should act in a conduct
>detrimental to the organization as a whole.
>
>Obviously, electrocuting a horse for insurance money might
>fall into that category.
>
>The entity derelict here is the AQHA. Granted, they have a
>very big PR budget and MIGHT be able to cover this up.
>
>They would do best to expel this man. He was the trainer,
>he was responsible for the care and custody of this horse
>and if some idiot minion abused the horse, it's on his head.
>
>Sue
>svle...@earthlink.net
This would be the third level of litigation (association vs. trainer).
It would be civil in nature; there may even be arbitration clauses in
membership agreements. Taking action would be justified, IMO, if only
on the "supervisory" issue. That's almost a "res ipsa loquitur"
situation if the trainer claims the Bart Simpson Defense: It wasn't
me; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing." The trainer still has
the DUTY to supervise underlings. Fail in that duty, lose your
professional status. It might make trainers a bit more dilligent in
supervising trainees.
As a former Walker owner, this is "deja vu all over again" with an
association tap dancing as fast as it can to "do something" without
doing something when a Name is caught in an abusive situation. Hasn't
this happened in the Dressage and Show Jumping and Eventing worlds,
too, in recent memory?
The Pohajsky Mantra is still valid ("I have time"). I guess if you're
spending a couple of thoursand bucks a month with a "name" maybe you
see things differently.
betsey
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:45:06 -0500, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue
>
>
>
>
>
> Leopold) wrote:
> >This is true. However the AHSA (now USEF) successfully defended
> >its expulsion of George Lindeman (one of the Insurance Horse
> >Killers in the mid 80s) from membership when he brought suit
> >against them about said expulsion. Memory grows hazy :-)
> >but I believe the court said that the AHSA had the right to
> >decide who could "play in their sandbox" pursuant to their
> >rules, one of which is that no member should act in a conduct
> >detrimental to the organization as a whole.
>
> >Obviously, electrocuting a horse for insurance money might
> >fall into that category.
>
> >The entity derelict here is the AQHA. Granted, they have a
> >very big PR budget and MIGHT be able to cover this up.
>
> >They would do best to expel this man. He was the trainer,
> >he was responsible for the care and custody of this horse
> >and if some idiot minion abused the horse, it's on his head.
>
> >Sue
>
> This would be the third level of litigation (association vs. trainer).
> It would be civil in nature; there may even be arbitration clauses in
> membership agreements. Taking action would be justified, IMO, if only
> on the "supervisory" issue. That's almost a "res ipsa loquitur"
> situation if the trainer claims the Bart Simpson Defense: It wasn't
> me; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing." The trainer still has
> the DUTY to supervise underlings. Fail in that duty, lose your
> professional status. It might make trainers a bit more dilligent in
> supervising trainees.
>
> As a former Walker owner, this is "deja vu all over again" with an
> association tap dancing as fast as it can to "do something" without
> doing something when a Name is caught in an abusive situation. Hasn't
> this happened in the Dressage and Show Jumping and Eventing worlds,
> too, in recent memory?
>
> The Pohajsky Mantra is still valid ("I have time"). I guess if you're
> spending a couple of thoursand bucks a month with a "name" maybe you
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bill-
in this month's H&R Avila has an article on "young horsetrainers" and
without directly quoting the Pohajsky Mantra...he is saying the same
thing "i have time".
betsey
betsey
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 05:23:29 -0800 (PST), betsey <twoxo...@aol.com>
Joyce-
I agree with you completely...but the real financial test will be if
his clients leave his barn...and in my opinion unless he is banned
from AQHA shows, that is not likely to happen. Some people have weird
sense of allegience.
Betsey
Hunter Hampton
<landsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Probably. As you know, Hunter, AQHA deems them dead at 25 years old.
>
>Ruth W.
Bailey will be 31 next month.... Rob will be 32 in May...
Hunter
Lisa W
Well, if the agreement was for the main trainer, sure. But, if the
owners are made aware of who was actually riding, there's nothing wrong
with that.
Is Wells ultimately responsible for anything that happens as part of his
training? Sure. According to his letter, he was gone from his property
from Aug 5 through at least Aug 15th. A lot can happen in 10 days in the
physical condition of an animal regarding injuries. But, yeah, he's
still responsible.
LisaW
--
“If you believe you don’t need a miracle. If you don’t, a million
miracles wouldn’t matter.”
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy
out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another
person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to
anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody
else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work
because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other
half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is
going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end
of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
Dr. Adrian
Rogers, 1931-2005
Cricket
"Caelan" <dippen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0441e845-6427-4dcf...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> I want to thank everyone who stood by me during this ordeal. I want to
>> tell everyone that I realize how lucky I am to have the friends and
>> family that I do. I want to say how important it is for everyone to
>> realize how great the Equine Industry is; I cannot even begin to
>> describe it. I would like to thank Pleasurehorse.com for maintaining
>> their integrity and professionalism as a web master. I would like to
>> thank the NSBA for their support and their efforts on both sides of
>> the situation and trying to get this resolved rather than have it
>> played out over the Internet. And, I want everyone to know that they
>> are welcome as always to come ride, come watch, or just come by and
>> visit. Please call me any time that you think I may be able to assist
>> you.
>
>
> Cleve Wells is a win-at-all-costs horse abuser. I saw the photos and
> vet statements given by two DVMs about Slow Lopin Scotch's injuries
> and I don't believe a word of this rebuttal. Blaming it on the
> assistant was low. If the assistant was abusing horses to the degree
> that Slow Lopin Scotch was tortured, the person would have been canned
> by a competant trainer long ago. You don't get systemic injuries and
> wicked infections like that poor animal had over a weekend, Cleve. The
> horse was brutalised with spurs and had broken teeth. The infected
> holes in it's sides from brutal spurring were sickening. I was an AQHA
> member when I had Jo and I am seriously thinking about getting a QH
> for my husband, but if the association doesn't remove Cleve from the
> membership, I won't buy a QH or support them. In such a clear-cut case
> of serious abuse, why are they hesitating about cutting him loose?
I've seen them get that bad in two or three days, but that's beside the
point. Even if he truly didn't
know anything about it, and the assistant trainer or whoever thought they'd
get points for getting major
progress while he was gone or something, he hired them in the first place.
And more to the point, if they
didn't think that he'd wink at whatever they did if they got results, they
most likely wouldn't have taken
the chance. There's enough chance that he really did do everything right,
and the assistant trainer was
some kind of sociopath, that I wouldn't outright take him out and shoot him,
but the odds are pretty damn slim.
Cricket
>
> Does anyone really believe Cleve was innocently at a show totally
> oblivious to the fact that Slow Lopin Scotch was locked in a stall
> with puss oozing from holes in his sides and with broken teeth? Thank
> god the owner came and checked on the horse or who knows what would
> have happened to it. How exactly did Cleve think he would get away
> with that? Does he think the owner would come and get the horse and
> not notice, even it was healed at that point, that the horse was
> mentally terrorized and had serious scars on it's side and broken
> teeth?? I can tell you that I notice every nick and scratch on my
> horse let alone huge, obvious wounds!
>
> I can't stand people who abuse animals. It's just sick and disgusting
> beyond comprehension.