Appalling Arabian news
Jessica Snyder
This week, at the Arabian National Championships, the
horse that went Champion Halter Stallion was, to nobody's
big suprise, Magnum Psyche... the very same horse whose
throatlatch has been surgically altered to make it appear
thinner. (The trainer says the surgery was health-oriented
to prevent cribbing and adjacent problems, with the smaller,
finer appearance simply being an unavoidable side effect. Ha.)
All the judges *knew* that this horse was altered. But, there
is nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically
altered animal. And since trainers are judges, they all knew
they would be showing under this horse's trainer eventually.
So he won it.
Add to this that he is only 3 years old, and hence skirted the
performance requirement, and it makes me actively nauseous.
I suspect this is a high-quality animal on his own merits,
but to have his young, altered self held up as the epitome of
an Arabian stallion....
Either I'm going to dump the entire Arabian show scene and
stick to open dressage, or I'm going to have to become a judge
myself and start making a change inside the ring.
*sigh* It's a sad day for our breed.
Jessica
------------------------------------------
jrsnyder@NO SPAM students.wisc.edu (remove
NO SPAM to reply)
"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having
enough sense to be lazy."
------------------------------------------
Mary J. McHugh
Jessica Snyder wrote:
> Either I'm going to dump the entire Arabian show scene and
> stick to open dressage, or I'm going to have to become a judge
> myself and start making a change inside the ring.
I vote for the latter. :-) But wait until the kiddo is in school...
it'll be hard to find the time until then (and there's no guarantee that
you'll find the time even then).
Mary "who is planning to eventually replace the might Bub (RIP) with
another Arab but not any surgically altered kind, well, unless it is a
gelding ;-)" McHugh
Deborah Stevenson
>Well, I just have to vent my total disgust in public.
>This week, at the Arabian National Championships, the
>horse that went Champion Halter Stallion was, to nobody's
>big suprise, Magnum Psyche... the very same horse whose
>throatlatch has been surgically altered to make it appear
>thinner. (The trainer says the surgery was health-oriented
>to prevent cribbing and adjacent problems, with the smaller,
>finer appearance simply being an unavoidable side effect. Ha.)
>All the judges *knew* that this horse was altered. But, there
>is nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically
>altered animal. And since trainers are judges, they all knew
>they would be showing under this horse's trainer eventually.
>So he won it.
Not that I find this such a wonderful thing, Jessica, but if there's
nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically altered animal
(and presumably nothing about marking it down in any way, then) is it
really the fault of the judges that they didn't take the initiative?
Seems to me that the judges have to judge by the rules.
It may be in this case, the horse world being what it is, that some of
these judges have fought against just that change when they were in the
position of owners. But I think a "we breed 'em, we don't cut and paste
'em" rule is the way to go here--and if you can't get it, maybe it's time
to consider something akin to the NFQHA for Arabs.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Unassisted by surgery in Champaign, IL, USA
desertmirage
Jessica,
yes, work towards your judges license.
While it is disgusting to see a horse win that was surgically altered IAHA
has it's hands tied in forbidding this as the court case has not come up on
the docket in Denver. Legally until there is a ruling the word is "alleged".
meaning Boggs can show the horse and the judges HAVE to judge each horse as
it comes into the ring on the merits it sees at the moment that horse is
standing before them and all knowledge of possible wrongdoing at that point
can not count.
Shoot, you say. Yep, it's a legal matter.
Ok here;'s the scoop. Boggs claims that the 4 horses- 2 weanlings and 2
yearlings had the muscles removed from the neck area to prevent possible
future colics from possible cribbing. I can just see all the horse people
reading this saying "What the--?" Yep, folks, I always thought colic was an
intestinal problem, something to do with the colon, you know. The vet who
did this for him has not been mentioned, but whoever he was was unethical to
the max and I wonder if the association can take this person up on charges
too?
Boggs has counter sued the IAHA for damage to his reputation and his
occupation. One thing that has been pointed out after this win and the
Canadian one is this: If he has indeed had damage to his reputation and his
occupation, many people (trainers) would love to have the damage winning a
National Championship would cause. This makes that claim of professional
damage a bit weak, don't you think?
I also understand that when the Nat Ch was announced many Arabian people
left the arena and the only clapping Boggs got was the minor group in his
own seats.
Thank goodness says something very good for the majority of Arabian owners.
Pat and Onyx
>------------------------------------------
>
>
Schmdthaus
nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically altered animal
(and presumably nothing about marking it down in any way, then) is it
really the fault of the judges that they didn't take the initiative?
Seems to me that the judges have to judge by the rules.>>
Stevenso is right, I believe. However, I also do not believe the judges are
justified in straying from stated breed standards. When did an impossibly thin
throatlatch become so desirable? When did a totally flat croup become
necessary? From accounts I've read, the horse did not show well at all, did not
demonstrate correct movement at the trot, and spent nearly the entire class on
such a short lead that it could not move out at all. From photos, he's a lovely
horse, but somewhat feminine looking.
Technically, the judges had every right to place the horse first, and three out
of four of them did exactly that. But in the past few decades, judges'
preferences have made a significant -- and unwelcome to at least some of us
oldtimers -- change in what traits are desirable in breeding animals, in a
breed whose type has been set for centuries.
Laur
Deborah Stevenson
>Stevenso is right, I believe. However, I also do not believe the judges are
>justified in straying from stated breed standards. When did an impossibly thin
>throatlatch become so desirable? When did a totally flat croup become
>necessary? From accounts I've read, the horse did not show well at all, did not
>demonstrate correct movement at the trot, and spent nearly the entire class on
>such a short lead that it could not move out at all. From photos, he's a lovely
>horse, but somewhat feminine looking.
But this is a different question than the surgical alteration one, I
believe. You're arguing, it seems, that the actual preferred type is
changing to the detriment of the breed.
Could be that that's because you see the two things coming from the same
forces, which I could well believe. But what you'd do about the two
things are, IMHO, rather different if you're working within the
organizations that currently exist. OTOH, an alternative organization
(preferably a pan-bloodline one, to combine those fanciers with similar
interests in the breed even if they're not working with the same
lines) could get around both those problems.
Maybe it's time to leave the hood ornaments to those who want them.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
A fan of the self-propelled Arab in Champaign, IL, USA
Alwzhorsn
who will breed to this horse. If they haven't done their homework (and know the
truth about the surgery) then they'll expect their foals to have similar
slender throatlatches.
I seem to remember that years ago either GBE (Gladys Brown Edwards) or Bazy
pointed out that these exceptionally thin throatlatches actually hindered the
horse's performance ability because it led to restricted breathing ability
(because of smaller windpipes associated with extremely small throatlatches).
jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
give me a Crabbet type any day (although beginning to appreciate a couple of
Spanish lines along the way)
Schmdthaus
believe. You're arguing, it seems, that the actual preferred type is
changing to the detriment of the breed. >>
Yup, it is a different question. I agree with you that the judges could not
consider the horse's cosmetic alteration in determining the winner. But they
sure as hell can consider the established, written breed standards rather than
"current" tastes.
Spellbound
cut is done on the muscle at the top of the poll to prevent the horse from
pulling on stuff with his mouth in an upward motion. It in no way thins the
neck. In fact the ends where the muscles are cut typically get a bit thicker
so it would increase the throatlatch area. What a bunch of jerks! They need
to ban that jerk for life, this is getting way out of hand.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Jessica Snyder wrote in message <3634D293...@students.wisc.edu>...
>Well, I just have to vent my total disgust in public.
>
>This week, at the Arabian National Championships, the
>horse that went Champion Halter Stallion was, to nobody's
>big suprise, Magnum Psyche... the very same horse whose
>throatlatch has been surgically altered to make it appear
>thinner. (The trainer says the surgery was health-oriented
>to prevent cribbing and adjacent problems, with the smaller,
>finer appearance simply being an unavoidable side effect. Ha.)
>
>All the judges *knew* that this horse was altered. But, there
>is nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically
>altered animal. And since trainers are judges, they all knew
>they would be showing under this horse's trainer eventually.
>So he won it.
>
>Add to this that he is only 3 years old, and hence skirted the
>performance requirement, and it makes me actively nauseous.
>I suspect this is a high-quality animal on his own merits,
>but to have his young, altered self held up as the epitome of
>an Arabian stallion....
>
>Either I'm going to dump the entire Arabian show scene and
>stick to open dressage, or I'm going to have to become a judge
>myself and start making a change inside the ring.
>
BluFeaFarm
>Boggs has counter sued the IAHA for damage to his reputation and his
>occupation. One thing that has been pointed out after this win and the
>Canadian one is this: If he has indeed had damage to his reputation and his
>occupation, many people (trainers) would love to have the damage winning a
>National Championship would cause. This makes that claim of professional
>damage a bit weak, don't you think?
>I also understand that when the Nat Ch was announced many Arabian people
>left the arena and the only clapping Boggs got was the minor group in his
>own seats.
Do you think it's possible that judges were swayed by the lawsuit? Maybe
allowing him to win so that he couldn't say he was 'injured' by the registry?
Regardless, my kudos to those that didn't get swept up in the look. So much of
what horse people do to make horses fashionable is so silly. Perhaps this can
serve as the 'straw' that breaks the camels back and the legions will demand
new rules so it doesn't happen again.
Every breed has the silliness somewhere. For me, breeding TB's, it is the Jan
1st birthday so everyone is putting mares under lights etc. so they can have
Jan or Feb foals. Nature didn't intend foals to be born in Jan and Feb. An
artifical deadline that is detrimental to the mares and foals, costs more money
to pursue, and for what reason?
Thanks,
Debbie
Blue Feather Farm
http://members.aol.com/blufeafarm/index.htm
sarah
badly capped left hock. Boggs also had to pitch his whip in the semi-- the
horse was too frightened of it. I'm soooo proud of my breed right now.
Deborah Stevenson wrote in message <7136oo$96m$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>In <19981026192731...@ng-fc1.aol.com> schmd...@aol.com
(Schmdthaus) writes:
>
>>Stevenso is right, I believe. However, I also do not believe the judges
are
>>justified in straying from stated breed standards. When did an impossibly
thin
>>throatlatch become so desirable? When did a totally flat croup become
>>necessary? From accounts I've read, the horse did not show well at all,
did not
>>demonstrate correct movement at the trot, and spent nearly the entire
class on
>>such a short lead that it could not move out at all. From photos, he's a
lovely
>>horse, but somewhat feminine looking.
>
>But this is a different question than the surgical alteration one, I
>believe. You're arguing, it seems, that the actual preferred type is
>changing to the detriment of the breed.
>
Laura Friedman
>
> I seem to remember that years ago either GBE (Gladys Brown Edwards) or Bazy
> pointed out that these exceptionally thin throatlatches actually hindered the
> horse's performance ability because it led to restricted breathing ability
> (because of smaller windpipes associated with extremely small throatlatches).
spotted half-arab, are somehow good?
Laura (hoping against hope) & Squiggles (maybe that's why she snorts so
much)
Anine Swart
so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
continuous back and NO croup at all ?
is that the standard for arab judging ?
Anine
jo...@dhh.gt.org
> Does that mean that giant throatlatches, like the one on a certain
> spotted half-arab, are somehow good?
Must be. The Old Man has one.
Of course, his jaw is also broad enough to have room for that giant
throatlatch, permitting him to carry his head dressage-fashion without
suffocating...
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Dr Corinne B Leek
>so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
So did I.
Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
It loaded slowly for me. Lots of pics.
>is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
>continuous back and NO croup at all ?
>is that the standard for arab judging ?
If it is, I don't like Arabs. Ick.
I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
like it was going to go on forever. And what's more, if that is a
sample of high-powered $$ paying for good quality pics to put up on
the 'Net, they got burned.
Corinne, glad she's not into the "pretty show" or Arab scene...
Troika, who would *much* prefer the Big Black Hunk down the aisle..
Jazz, still virgin, but not willing to try Magnum Psyche - ugh..
Toby, TIBD, wondering if Magnum Psyche is misspelled by an "e"...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Laura Friedman
>
> "Anine Swart" <asw...@mikros.co.za> wrote:
>
> >so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
> So did I.
>
> Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
> the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>
> http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
> It loaded slowly for me. Lots of pics.
>
> >is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
> >continuous back and NO croup at all ?
> >is that the standard for arab judging ?
> If it is, I don't like Arabs. Ick.
> I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
> like it was going to go on forever.
Agreed. He looks out of proportion to me. His neck is too long and his
throatlatch looks too thin. I also don't like that he has no croup.
Not a horse I'd want to take out for a ride. Also, are they calling him
a palomino by any chance?
These horses are starting to look like freaks of nature.
Laura (happy with her thick throatlatched, short-backed, short-necked,
spotted half-arab)
Jim & Laura Behning
>"Anine Swart" <asw...@mikros.co.za> wrote:
>
>>so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
>So did I.
>
>Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
>the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>
>http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
Thanks for this Corinne. I did'nt have a problem with his topline, but
he is so leggy that with as short as his back is, I'd think he'd be
prone to stepping on himself. His neck is so thin at the *base* (where
it attaches to the shoulder) that it makes his throatlatch still look
thick to me ;-). Nice head, nice length of hip, nice color.
I think the main question I have is, what ELSE was in the ring with
him?
Laura Behning
morgans at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~morgans/Laura.htm
John T. Klausner
specifically that "high action will be penalized", but oddly enough,
the horses with the highest action are consistently placed first. So,
my conclusion is that the judges use the rules when it suits them and
ignore those portions that don't suit them...
SueK
In <19981026192731...@ng-fc1.aol.com> schmd...@aol.com
(Schmdthaus) writes:
>
><<Not that I find this such a wonderful thing, Jessica, but if there's
>nothing in the rule books about disqualifying a surgically altered
animal
>(and presumably nothing about marking it down in any way, then) is it
>really the fault of the judges that they didn't take the initiative?
>Seems to me that the judges have to judge by the rules.>>
>
>Stevenso is right, I believe. However, I also do not believe the
judges are
>justified in straying from stated breed standards. When did an
impossibly thin
>throatlatch become so desirable? When did a totally flat croup become
>necessary? From accounts I've read, the horse did not show well at
all, did not
>demonstrate correct movement at the trot, and spent nearly the entire
class on
>such a short lead that it could not move out at all. From photos, he's
a lovely
>horse, but somewhat feminine looking.
>
Schmdthaus
my conclusion is that the judges use the rules when it suits them and
ignore those portions that don't suit them...
SueK>>
My conclusion, too, SueK. Even in hunter pleasure, there are too many horses in
the money who are going damn near level.
Laur
C. Little
> "Anine Swart" <asw...@mikros.co.za> wrote:
>
>
> >is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
> >continuous back and NO croup at all ?
> >is that the standard for arab judging ?
> If it is, I don't like Arabs. Ick.
> I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
> like it was going to go on forever. And what's more, if that is a
> sample of high-powered $$ paying for good quality pics to put up on
> the 'Net, they got burned.
>
Oh please oh please don't think that wimpy girly horse is a *real* arab...
There are those of us that actually *ride* our horses, which I doubt will
ever happen to MP...
Count me in on the number who are shocked and disgusted.
Cheryl
Jazanot
him?<<
Laura asked
Laura, go back to the page with the stallion mentioned, then go to the bottom
of the page and access the Home page for this web site. There is an entire
page of other stallions to look at. Most of them are of the same type, willowy
tall, thin Arabs that look like a saddlebred might have wandered in from the
breeding shed.
Someone mentioned the croup, it looks like a typical show horse Arab croup to
me. High, short and flat, exactly what they are trying to breed. The
photographer also accented the neck lines by placing the horse on a 3/4 view
toward the camera. The optical illusion of length is given to anything in the
foreground, the receding body of the horse would be shortened with this view.
Also notice the horses are placed on a hill or the camera is tilted so the
animal appears to have his croup level, not so, look at the ground.....that
horse has a high croup and so does anything you photograph on that angle.
Ahh, those Arabs, myself I am not a fan. Too much like dog shows and the way
the German shepard is travelling for my tastes. ETTOO.....(everyone to their
own opinion).
Page again: http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
Regards,
Jaz,
Midnight Rainbow (Black & white Dressage Demon)
Allegra (Oldenburg filly learning the ropes)
Kinzua ( The complete broodmare, retired Dressage Madam)
Bailar del Bravio (The squirt Andalusian/Iberian WB, who thinks he is head
hauncho)
Kris Anderson
> >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
> Thanks for this Corinne. I did'nt have a problem with his topline, but
> he is so leggy that with as short as his back is, I'd think he'd be
> prone to stepping on himself. His neck is so thin at the *base* (where
> it attaches to the shoulder) that it makes his throatlatch still look
> thick to me ;-). Nice head, nice length of hip, nice color.
That's not a real horse is it? Looks plastic to me, and looks like it
might have gotten a little warped coming out of the mold.
Kris, must be my monitor, Anderson
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
<kan...@ephs.org>
Bobbie C
Dr Corinne B Leek wrote in message
<3650f247....@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>...
>"Anine Swart" <asw...@mikros.co.za> wrote:
>
>>so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
>So did I.
>
>Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
>the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>
>http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
, if that is a
>sample of high-powered $$ paying for good quality pics to put up on
>the 'Net, they got burned.
Yep, my immediate impression is "What's Wrong with the Picture?" when I see
a "professional" profile shot, posed on a hillside! Wonder if the
critter's topline would look any better on level ground.... nah.
Bobbie cc...@NOSPAMinforum.net (remove NOSPAM with reply)
ICQ# 5471579
WB Dare Me
>>Also notice the horses are placed on a hill or the camera is tilted so the
animal appears to have his croup level, not so, look at the ground.....that
horse has a high croup and so does anything you photograph on that angle.<<
He's also some what parked out....if you imagine him standing squarely, he's
built downhill.
I can't deny that he makes a gorgeous sculpture, but this is a HORSE
fercripessake.
Monika
Monika Delle, Seattle, WA, USA
**** Step Up To A Saddlebred! ****
Dare - W.B. Dare Me, western wonderhorse (beginning dressage)
Julie - Doubletree's Juliana, awesome hunt seat horse
and the Kitty Krew: Bean, Dora, Frango, Posie, Taz and Tickle
Mary J. McHugh
Laura Friedman wrote:
> Agreed. He looks out of proportion to me. His neck is too long and his
> throatlatch looks too thin. I also don't like that he has no croup.
> Not a horse I'd want to take out for a ride. Also, are they calling him
> a palomino by any chance?
>
> These horses are starting to look like freaks of nature.
>
> Laura (happy with her thick throatlatched, short-backed, short-necked,
> spotted half-arab)
That was an *Arab*??? I thought it was a giraffe. Not only doesn't he look
anything like the same breed as my Arab Bub (Raffles breeding), he doesn't
even look like the same species. I also agree with Laura B's comments about
the short back and long legs but he looks too straight behind to step on
himself. He also doesn't look like he has substance. I wonder how he'd
look on level ground rather than the apparent uphill in the pics?
Of course, maybe he looks better in person(horse).
Man, I'm glad I didn't stick with breed showing.
Mary "sticking with the performance classes" McHugh
Ennui09
>Agreed. He looks out of proportion to me. His neck is too long and his
>throatlatch looks too thin. I also don't like that he has no croup.
>Not a horse I'd want to take out for a ride. Also, are they calling him
>a palomino by any chance?
I have to agree. That was the first thing I thought. He looks *way* out of
proportion. His neck is thin, not pretty. I didn't see a croup, either *G*
Jennifer and the greenies...
Area 2
"Horses tend to go the way we ride them"
"Adopt a classical position, resist all fads and gadgets, and ride the horse
quietly and softly... It's simple. It's just not easy." - J. Wofford
Jessica Snyder
Schmdthaus wrote:
Not to mention behind the vertical and on a loose rein. *gag*
True hunter motion doesn't place very often in the Arab ring these
days. And don't even *try* to find a judge who knows (or cares)
about the difference in a Show Hack class between extention/collection
and fast/slow. What wins are CP horses who go faster and slower.
Pitiful.
Jessica (who wouldn't mind riding in *anything* right now, but
must wait a while yet... 5 weeks until baby is due!)
Jessica Snyder
Anine Swart wrote:
> <snip>
>
> so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
> is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
> continuous back and NO croup at all ?
> is that the standard for arab judging ?
>
> Anine
That's the current show ring standard.
However, recall that in all photos the horse will be posed and very
tensed across the loin to create that tabletop look. Wandering around
on his own he probably has a normal rear end (his sire tends to
produce rather strong hips and good coupling which aren't totally flat
when the horse is relaxed).
As I understand it, the handler held him under the jaw the entire
class... indicating to me that the handler was afraid that the horse
would do something violent if given enough room. Having
seen his horses do similar things in the past (try to attack him in
the ring), it's hard to say how much of what you see in photos is
real conformation and how much is a scared, tensed, posed horse.
(And of course the throatlatch we know is fake, due to surgery).
Jessica & Tap (who can also stand so that he is flat from back
to tail, but has a nice strong coupling and hip that allows him
to gather well under himself)
Jessica Snyder
Laura Friedman wrote:
> Agreed. He looks out of proportion to me. His neck is too long and his
> throatlatch looks too thin.
Recall that he is only a 3 year old; what his neck will look like as a
mature
horse is anyone's guess.
Of course, the throatlatch will always look to thin; it's been surgically
altered to look that way. Icky, isn't it?
> I also don't like that he has no croup.
He has a croup, it's simply flat when he's stood up like that. Lots of
Arabs can do it; it doesn't reflect at all upon their butt power. Length
of croup and length of hip and power of coupling are the keys there.
So it looks funny, but doesn't mean much; loose on his own it's
unlikely he looks that way.
>
> Also, are they calling him a palomino by any chance?
Nope; he's just chestnut. (As are all "palomino" Arabians).
Midwest (the stable) doesn't play fake color games.
Fake horse, yes. Fake color, no. Go figure.
Jessica (who may give up on the halter ring entirely)
Jessica Snyder
Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
>
> Thanks for this Corinne. I did'nt have a problem with his topline, but
> he is so leggy that with as short as his back is, I'd think he'd be
> prone to stepping on himself. His neck is so thin at the *base* (where
> it attaches to the shoulder) that it makes his throatlatch still look
> thick to me ;-). Nice head, nice length of hip, nice color.
Yep, I agree with all the criticisms. But again, he is only 3; he may
mature more neck at the base as he grows up. And his body proportions
may differ somewhat. However, those at Nationals said he couldn't
(or didn't, in the ring) move worth a darn either.
> I think the main question I have is, what ELSE was in the ring with
> him?
Sadly, some really nice horses. This was a political win (most National
halter wins are); everyone involved figured Boggs (the handler) would win
champion this year.
Jessica
Elizabeth Moon
>
> "Anine Swart" <asw...@mikros.co.za> wrote:
>
> >so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
>
> Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
> the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>
> http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
> It loaded slowly for me. Lots of pics.
>
> >continuous back and NO croup at all ?
> >is that the standard for arab judging ?
> I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
> sample of high-powered $$ paying for good quality pics to put up on
> the 'Net, they got burned.
>
> Troika, who would *much* prefer the Big Black Hunk down the aisle..
> Jazz, still virgin, but not willing to try Magnum Psyche - ugh..
> Toby, TIBD, wondering if Magnum Psyche is misspelled by an "e"...
> --
> *** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
> *** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Well, I wouldn't breed my solid, athletic, deep-bodied Arab mare to him,
even if were a free breeding. Yuck. Although she would improve on him
(any well-built mare would have to help...)
How old is this critter? I mean, if he's a yearling, there's some excuse
for a skinny undeveloped neck and light body, but otherwise...forget it.
He does seem to have a reasonably long femur, though with that light
tubular body it's hard to tell. You know what...his overall built
reminds me of a picture I saw once of Akhel-Tekes, which also have a
light tubular body and very long legs.
Elizabeth, glad to have the bay mare instead of Cutie Pie.
--
"A little raised number at the end of a statement is not an icon of
inerrancy." _British Medical Journal_
Elizabeth Moon
>
> Jim & Laura Behning wrote:
> >
>
> > >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
> >
> > he is so leggy that with as short as his back is, I'd think he'd be
> > prone to stepping on himself. His neck is so thin at the *base* (where
> > it attaches to the shoulder) that it makes his throatlatch still look
> > thick to me ;-). Nice head, nice length of hip, nice color.
>
> might have gotten a little warped coming out of the mold.
>
> Kris, must be my monitor, Anderson
>
> Kris Anderson
> Williamstown, MA
> <kan...@ephs.org>
traced a photograph and "improved" it.
Elizabeth
Madeline Rockwell
>
> In article <36360383....@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
> mor...@atl.mindspring.com wrote:
> > >
> > >Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
> > >the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
> > >
> > >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
> >
Egad. I don't know anything about Arabians shown at halter, but those
first few photos...that long neck rising up out of the water... all I
could think of was "Loch Ness Monster"
madeline
michele
wonderful breed. But,
EYUUUCH.
'Nuff said,
Michele
art...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> >>so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
> >So did I.
> >
> >the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
> >
> >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
> he is so leggy that with as short as his back is, I'd think he'd be
> prone to stepping on himself. His neck is so thin at the *base* (where
> it attaches to the shoulder) that it makes his throatlatch still look
> thick to me ;-). Nice head, nice length of hip, nice color.
>
> him?
I know the answer to this one Laura! LOL! There was another stallion in the
ring that I thought moved beautifully, but he wasn't quite the stunner that
Magnum Was. Psymandre` who is bay and a really pretty horse... Its the first
time that I've ever seen David Boggs not trot a stallion on a loose lead.. I
got the impression that Magnum is a really high strung horse....
Heather m.
Art...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ARTGRRL/Artgrrl.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bek Hackett
> >is it just my oh-so-arab-ignorant self or does that horse have one
> >continuous back and NO croup at all ?
> >is that the standard for arab judging ?
> If it is, I don't like Arabs. Ick.
> I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
> like it was going to go on forever.
Funny, I thought swan necks were a conformation fault in ANY breed! As for
the throat latch, if he didn't have his neck up and stretched, I'm not
convinced he'd be able to breathe. Not nice poor thing. It's a shame
judges don't judge conformation properly. Regardless of breed standards,
he's not sound. Breed classes are just that. Best of the breed, not
prettiest face or most money. Oh well, cheerio, Bek and fat Fred.
Makkiyah
suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year old,
and of course somewhere in between having his throat slit -- that is his entire
neck slashed open, stuff pulled out, then sewn up again, then back to breeding
mares, standing in front of a whip (they keep him behind curtains at shows with
a security guard) ... well, you get the picture. Pity this poor animal.
Karen
Karen
Deborah Stevenson
>Just pity the horse, everyone. The good news is that he may never have to
>suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
>vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
>had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year old,
Has he really bred hundreds of mares just as a two-year-old? Good
heavens. Successfully bred?
I'm semi-dreading tomorrow when I can finally get a look at this
much-talked-about picture.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Stopping thinking about tomorrow in Champaign, IL, USA
Bek Hackett
Makkiyah wrote:
> Just pity the horse, everyone. The good news is that he may never have to
> suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
> vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
> had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year old,
> and of course somewhere in between having his throat slit -- that is his entire
> neck slashed open, stuff pulled out, then sewn up again, then back to breeding
> mares, standing in front of a whip (they keep him behind curtains at shows with
> a security guard) ... well, you get the picture. Pity this poor animal.
> Karen
> Karen
My god, I thought our show scene was pretty mad. It turns out we're pretty tame
with just the usual drugging and overworking thing happening for a piece of felt
ribbon. I'd rather be here! cheerio, Bek and fat Fred.
Kris Anderson
> > > >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
> > >
>
> Egad. I don't know anything about Arabians shown at halter, but those
> first few photos...that long neck rising up out of the water... all I
> could think of was "Loch Ness Monster"
Well if I were the judge, so far you win the contest to best describe,
in 3 words or less, what you saw in the pic.
Headlines: "The Lock Ness Monster wins the 1998 US National Champion
Stallion Award" :-)
Kris
--
Jessica Snyder
Deborah Stevenson wrote:
> In <19981027224235...@ng105.aol.com> makk...@aol.com (Makkiyah) writes:
>
> >Just pity the horse, everyone. The good news is that he may never have to
> >suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
> >vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
> >had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year old,
And, judging from what I've heard of his in-ring display, he is *totally* burned
out on the entire process. Poor guy... I agree he deserves pity.
> Has he really bred hundreds of mares just as a two-year-old? Good
> heavens. Successfully bred?
It's true. Almost, if not all, by AI. Although I heard his sperm count was so
low by the end that the later year mares were unable to settle.
Scarey that so many people would pay to breed to a 2 year old, eh? We don't
have any idea how the horse will finish up yet... but he won the big
Yearling competition, so his book probably started filling then with people
who automatically breed to whatever is the up and coming big winner/big
name horse.
Ugh.
> I'm semi-dreading tomorrow when I can finally get a look at this
> much-talked-about picture.
It's an extreme shot; he's too fine in the neck anyway, and the photo
exaggerates it.
Of course, he'd look totally different just standing around in a corrall......
and that's the picture I'd like to see of him!
--
Donna Pattee
Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Anine Swart wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> so i got curious and went looking for photos of Magnum Psyche..
>> continuous back and NO croup at all ?
>> is that the standard for arab judging ?
>>
>
>That's the current show ring standard.
All of the horses in the stallion halter class on Saturday night had that
"look": long thin neck, long legs, flat croup, etc. Keep in mind that
either four or five out of the 10 horses in the ring were by Padron's
Psyche.
>
>However, recall that in all photos the horse will be posed and very
>tensed across the loin to create that tabletop look. Wandering around
>on his own he probably has a normal rear end (his sire tends to
>produce rather strong hips and good coupling which aren't totally flat
>when the horse is relaxed).
Correct. I don't care for the snaky looking neck, but the photographers who
do Arabian shows know how to emphasize it in photos. When stood up, all the
halter Arabians have that flat croup. If they don't, they're penalized.
>
>As I understand it, the handler held him under the jaw the entire
>class... indicating to me that the handler was afraid that the horse
>would do something violent if given enough room. Having
>seen his horses do similar things in the past (try to attack him in
>the ring), it's hard to say how much of what you see in photos is
>real conformation and how much is a scared, tensed, posed horse.
>(And of course the throatlatch we know is fake, due to surgery).
He did hold him very short, but the horse didn't seem scared at all. He was
a very aggressive stallion who tried to bite everything that came within
three feet of him. He looked to me like a horse who has been trained with
lots of hand feeding and that he had never been corrected for mouthiness.
What I mean by that is that he wasn't lunging for people and the ears
weren't laid back. He also wasn't yanking he head back and trying to
protect his head the way two other horses in that class were.
David put Magnum on a long lead for the victory lap, and the horse ran
along with him just fine. However, when the judges tried to get close to
him during inspection, Magnum warned them away.
>
>Jessica & Tap (who can also stand so that he is flat from back
>to tail, but has a nice strong coupling and hip that allows him
>to gather well under himself)
>
Mary J. McHugh
Madeline Rockwell wrote:
> art...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <36360383....@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
> > mor...@atl.mindspring.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
> > > >the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
> > > >
> > > >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
> > >
>
> Egad. I don't know anything about Arabians shown at halter, but those
> first few photos...that long neck rising up out of the water... all I
> could think of was "Loch Ness Monster"
>
> madeline
Ha! That's funny... I thought exactly the same thing.
Maybe his barn name is "Nessie". :-)
Mary "look at the photo next to his show record for an example" McHugh
Makkiyah
>much-talked-about picture
I just looked up the site. The full-body shot at the bottom is a yearling
picture, I believe.
bra...@my-dejanews.com
color, but EW! NO CROUP! Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Arabs have
shorter backs (one or two less vertebrae) than most other breeds? So why
try to make them look long-backed with no croup? What a dumb standard! And
shouldn't the standard be for functionality as well as beauty? This horse
looks like he'd fall over with a rider on him! Weird neck looks these days.
What purpose does it serve the horse to look like that? Shouldn't we as
equestrians be preserving characteristics of the breed that make them
durable as well as beautiful? I don't understand this at all... <sigh>
HSOC
hea...@micronet.nospamnet
remove nospam to reply
Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne
>
> Just pity the horse, everyone. The good news is that he may never have to
> suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
> vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
> had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year old,
> neck slashed open, stuff pulled out, then sewn up again, then back to breeding
> mares, standing in front of a whip (they keep him behind curtains at shows with
> a security guard) ... well, you get the picture. Pity this poor animal.
So, this dumb TWH owner wants to know...just WHY don't Arabians
need to be inspected before being shown???
The uphill photo was bad enough, but that pencil-neck geek look
is creepy. How can he breathe?
Geez!
Dawn
John T. Klausner
(Deborah Stevenson) writes:
>
>Has he really bred hundreds of mares just as a two-year-old? Good
>heavens. Successfully bred?
>
That's open to question...someone commented during discussion about
this that a friend had received semen with about 10% motility...who
knows??? I guess that even though his motility is that poor, at least
it doesn't appear that they've used steroids...
SueK
Karen Sturtevant
> > neck slashed open, stuff pulled out, then sewn up again, then back to breeding
> > mares...
>
> Horse owners actually have *cosmetic surgery* done to make a horse look
> prettier?!? That's outrageous! I could see fixing a scar that would hinder
> placing in halter classes, but taking flesh out of a horse's neck??? That's gross.
Karen
Haverhill, MA
>
>
>
>
>
Kagy
>picture, I believe.
>
where can i see this picture... i just joined the thread
Kelly
Samantha
since most of the photo's are at an angle and he is standing on a hill.
However he looks like the gumby horse from the neck up. It actually is kind
of scary to me. Do you think that's all surgery or did they stretch the
little guy on the rack when he was young?
Does anyone know what started this trend? or is it just the naturally
occurring ebb and flow of yucky taste?
-Samantha
Dr Corinne B Leek wrote in message
<3650f247....@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>...
>So did I.
>
>Here's the URL, complete with Virtual fireworks, a personal crest for
>the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>
>http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>
>It loaded slowly for me. Lots of pics.
<snip of description of no-croup, long skinny neck>
>If it is, I don't like Arabs. Ick.
>I thought the same as Anine, from the pics. Also, his neck looked
Jessica Snyder
Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne wrote:
>So, this dumb TWH owner wants to know...just WHY don't Arabians
> need to be inspected before being shown???
They do have to be inspected before being shown; two stewards go
over them looking for whip marks, etc.... any signs of illegal abuse.
Problem is, the horse was abused well before the show, and simply
remembers what will happen if they don't arch, snort, be tense,
etc. (they'll get the crap beaten out of them).
Not all halter trainers work this way, but many (most at the upper
levels) do. And this one does in particular.
--
Jessica
Lynn Tucker
>Makkiyah wrote:
>>
>> Just pity the horse, everyone. The good news is that he may never have to
>> suffer fools again, in the ring at least. He has been through hell, from my
>> vantage point. National champion yearling (that mean his intense "management"
>> had to start as a weanling), then breeding hundreds of mares as a two year
> old,
> entire
>> neck slashed open, stuff pulled out, then sewn up again, then back to
> breeding
> with
>> a security guard) ... well, you get the picture. Pity this poor animal.
>
>
> need to be inspected before being shown???
>
> is creepy. How can he breathe?
>
> Geez!
>
> Dawn
Not to imply that I approve of the ultra slim necks that Arabian breeders are
seeking, but it appears that other breeds are going a similar route. I see
that the pencil neck is now a big thing in the AQHA. I've seen a few that
people were "oohhing" and "awhing" over that looked right silly with a neck
that looked more suited to a goat rather than a horse. Of course the opposite
certainly has its downfalls when it comes to flexibility and lightness.
Just my $.02 worth (in Canadian dollars that isn't worth much!!!)
....Lynn
wkambic
> Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne wrote:
>
> >So, this dumb TWH owner wants to know...just WHY don't Arabians
>
> > need to be inspected before being shown???
>
> They do have to be inspected before being shown; two stewards go
> over them looking for whip marks, etc.... any signs of illegal abuse.
> Problem is, the horse was abused well before the show, and simply
> remembers what will happen if they don't arch, snort, be tense,
> etc. (they'll get the crap beaten out of them).
TWH people call this "stewarding."
> Not all halter trainers work this way, but many (most at the upper
> levels) do. And this one does in particular.
Not all TWH owners have to steward their horses, either. But a whole
bunch sure do.
Bill Kambic
Learing of other breeds' stupidity is such fun.
Spellbound
Wasn't this a problem with Perlaine years ago, too early breeding and
then low low sperm count making him almost sterile. I remember he was a
beautiful horse, but after his show career was over no more was heard of
him.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
John T. Klausner wrote in message <717v1v$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...
Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne
> > prettier?!? That's outrageous! I could see fixing a scar that would hinder
> > placing in halter classes, but taking flesh out of a horse's neck??? That's gross.
That's a good point.. If they wanted it smaller, why not liposuction?
Why not facelifts?
This is not meant to be stupid. Where does this end?
Dawn
sarah
Liposuction, transference of fat pads, and "touching up the ears" are an all
too common occurance. I'm embarrassed that all of this happens to my breed.
All I ever wanted was a pretty-headed horse, not a freaked-out barbie doll.
Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne wrote in message <363837...@pacbell.net>...
bra...@my-dejanews.com
having a champion is so that he or she can be bred to produce more of the
"ideal" member of their breed. This alteration was surgical and would not be
passed on in his genetics when bred so if that is the sort of neck they are
looking for, they aren't going to get it from this stud!!! TOTALLY IGNORANT!
SURGICAL ENHANCEMENTS CANNOT BE PASSED ON IN THE GENETICS OF A BEING!!!! Ear
tips, whatever, these are man-made enhancements that do the future of the
breed no good and certainly no justice...!!! HSOC hea...@Micronet.nospamnet
Ennui09
>However, when the judges tried to get close to
>him during inspection, Magnum warned them away.
Warned them away?! How does a horse win if the judges can't even get close to
him? They don't have any requirements for the horses to be semi-well-mannered?
Don't dog shows excuse dogs from the ring for aggressive behavior? I would
think that halter classes would be somewhat similar in that respect.
Jennifer (who thinks the fact that the ugly beast won is silly enough, if he's
ugly AND ill-tempered I'll pay for the nag to be gelded)
Donna Pattee
Ennui09 <enn...@aol.com> wrote:
>Donna Pattee wrote:
>>However, when the judges tried to get close to
>>him during inspection, Magnum warned them away.
>
>Warned them away?! How does a horse win if the judges can't even get close to
>him? They don't have any requirements for the horses to be semi-well-mannered?
> Don't dog shows excuse dogs from the ring for aggressive behavior? I would
>think that halter classes would be somewhat similar in that respect.
>
requirement for the horse to be sweet and/or well-mannered. From what I've
seen/heard, dog shows and and halter classes have nothing in common, and
I'm not sure they should - it's certainly much easier for the average human
to handle an unneutered dog than to handle an ungelded horse. Anyway, I'm
not making any judgement calls about temperament requirements for stallions
in a halter class, just stating what happened at Nationals with this
particular horse. And, as someone (Jessica?), pointed out, what we saw may
not be an inherent defect in the Padron's Psyche line, it's just the
result of the way halter stallions are trained to show.
>Jennifer (who thinks the fact that the ugly beast won is silly enough, if he's
>ugly AND ill-tempered I'll pay for the nag to be gelded)
He's not ugly. He didn't look hugely different from the other horses in the
class. Either 40% or 50% of the horses in the class were all by Padron's
Psyche, so how different could they be and still be finalists? I still
haven't found photos of the other members of that class, but if I do I'll
post the url.
C. Little
> In article <19981030010728...@ng93.aol.com>,
> There's no requirement for the judge to touch the horse. There's no
> requirement for the horse to be sweet and/or well-mannered. From what I've
> seen/heard, dog shows and and halter classes have nothing in common, and
> I'm not sure they should - it's certainly much easier for the average human
> to handle an unneutered dog than to handle an ungelded horse. Anyway, I'm
> not making any judgement calls about temperament requirements for stallions
> in a halter class, just stating what happened at Nationals with this
> particular horse. And, as someone (Jessica?), pointed out, what we saw may
> not be an inherent defect in the Padron's Psyche line, it's just the
> result of the way halter stallions are trained to show.
>
> >Jennifer (who thinks the fact that the ugly beast won is silly enough, if he's
> >ugly AND ill-tempered I'll pay for the nag to be gelded)
>
> He's not ugly. He didn't look hugely different from the other horses in the
> class. Either 40% or 50% of the horses in the class were all by Padron's
> Psyche, so how different could they be and still be finalists? I still
> haven't found photos of the other members of that class, but if I do I'll
> post the url.
Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you here, Donna. I know I may live in a wonderful
fantasy world, but I think a judge should be able to walk up to any horse, stallion
or not, and do a hands on examination. After all, the ginger test involves running
your hand over the tail to see if it will stay down even momentarily. Manners are
manners, and if a stallion does not show manners he should be gelded.
The abuse that often gets halter horses in the mental state they're in is a whole
'nother subject.
I have arabs and love them, and I too think MP is ugly, and lacking substance. He
won because of who was handling him, and the reasoning that 'this is what halter
horses look like' doesn't cut it.
Cheryl
Dar
Madeline Rockwell wrote in message <36366F...@vermontel.net>...
>art...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <36360383....@news.atl.mindspring.com>,
>> mor...@atl.mindspring.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > >the stallion and his pedigree at the bottom:
>> > >
>> > >http://midwestarabian.com/stallions/magnum/index.html
>> >
>
>first few photos...that long neck rising up out of the water... all I
>could think of was "Loch Ness Monster"
>
>madeline
I have Quarters, & we show All Breed shows.
That is ... well, if the Judge picked that over
a shaggy pony...YUCK! Not very appealing to me.
Dar
Dar
Lynn Tucker wrote in message <7184g0$5r7$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>...
>In article <363767...@pacbell.net>, "Dawn L. Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmb...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Makkiyah wrote:
>>>
Snip>
>Not to imply that I approve of the ultra slim necks that Arabian breeders
are
>seeking, but it appears that other breeds are going a similar route. I see
>that the pencil neck is now a big thing in the AQHA. I've seen a few that
>people were "oohhing" and "awhing" over that looked right silly with a neck
>that looked more suited to a goat rather than a horse. Of course the
opposite
>certainly has its downfalls when it comes to flexibility and lightness.
>Just my $.02 worth (in Canadian dollars that isn't worth much!!!)
>....Lynn
Yes I see it a lot. I really don't think they look good
with the "Swan Neck" at all. Even with the poor babies.
Sweat the necks, is all I hear. There is a big difference between
a clean throat latch, & thin.
Dar
Elizabeth Moon
>
> In article <363A15F7...@darrington.net>,
> that kind of bucks) I'd be the Judge From Hell. I'd want to look at their teeth,
> check for ginger (there's one version of that test I'd love to try) and run my
> hand over their flanks. I can understand a horse acting a bit timid but threatening
> the judge is an absolute No-No and should NEVER be tolerated.
>
> >The abuse that often gets halter horses in the mental state they're in is a whole
> >'nother subject.
> >I have arabs and love them, and I too think MP is ugly, and lacking substance. He
> >won because of who was handling him, and the reasoning that 'this is what halter
> >horses look like' doesn't cut it.
>
> is a major problem in the QH world and in the Arabian world.
>
> There are some local Arab breeders that I went up to and introduced myself to.
> I asked them what classes they showed their horses in and they said Halter. I
> guess I blinked and said that's ALL. And they very proudly said, Yes, We Have
> Halter Horses. I had to bite my tongue to keep from replying, 'Gee, all my
> horses are broke to lead, too......'
>
> >
> >Cheryl
> >
> >
>
> Sue who thinks horses are made for riding
Amen. But I remember someone telling me they had Arabians, and when I
said "Oh, great, so do I, and what do you use yours for?" they looked at
me blankly and said "We don't *ride* them...you don't *ride*
Arabians--they're works of art." The conversation lasted only a short
(and very unproductive) time longer. They didn't want to hear about
mine, and I didn't like the look of theirs (and I could tell that if I
started talking about heart-girth and hocks, while they were talking
necks and noses, we were going to come to blows.)
I think a national champion mare or stallion should be a proven
performance *and breeding* horse--and should behave like a well-trained,
civilized horse in the ring. Precisely because horses are more dangerous
than most dogs, stallions must be mannerly--and a mannerly stallion will
stand still on command and allow himself to be touched by a vet,
farrier, and anyone else, including a horse-show judge. (We're
talking nonpainful, reasonable touching, not tickling, hitting, or
pinching, or course.)
Twenty-five years ago or so, some Arabian breeders I knew at the time
encouraged me (the novice with Arabians then) to learn about horses with
theirs...and this included the owner standing up the stallion for me (and
others who were looking) to touch, pick up a foot, look in the mouth,
etc. They were proud of having horses that were not freaky, crazy,
badly-behaved monsters...if the owner said "Whoa" that horse was screwed
to the ground with all four feet. (The contrast between these old-time
Arabians, and the then newly explosive recent imports was visible at that
very show...in one section, friendly horses leaning out of the stall and
friendly relaxed owners willing to chat; in the next section, all the
doors closed, and employees warning show-goers away.)
Elizabeth, rejoicing in another good ride on the bay mare
Kuincey, who wishes E. would forget this work stuff and concentrate on
the brushing, scratching, and feeding.
Cleopatra the cat, who appeared on the front porch with a dead baby
bunny.
--
"A little raised number at the end of a statement is not an icon of
inerrancy." _British Medical Journal_
Spellbound
it's like the difference between working sporting dogs and showing
sporting dogs. The ones at the shows are all nervous energy and have
feathers that drag the ground, a real working dog has a slick coat with just
a fringe and a good demeanor.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Elizabeth Moon wrote in message <363AA3...@sff.net>...
Mary Rossano
>
>
> Amen. But I remember someone telling me they had Arabians, and when I
> said "Oh, great, so do I, and what do you use yours for?" they looked at
> me blankly and said "We don't *ride* them...you don't *ride*
> Arabians--they're works of art." The conversation lasted only a short
> (and very unproductive) time longer. They didn't want to hear about
> mine, and I didn't like the look of theirs (and I could tell that if I
> started talking about heart-girth and hocks, while they were talking
> necks and noses, we were going to come to blows.)
Ah yes, the old "living art form" marketing scheme of the boom years.
Can you believe how many suckers bought into that?
We do have specialized bloodlines for halter and performance, with
subsets of performance types - english and western. It's too bad, but
at least if you are interested in performance you can avoid halter and
the bloodlines associated with it. It isn't like halter showing has
managed to uniformly bring the whole breed's athletic ability down. And
lest we forget, some of the most enduringly popular stallion lines are
those of stallions who were successful in both halter and performance
(*Bask, Khemosabi, Huck, etc.). MP only represents one type within the
breed - the halter specialist.
> I think a national champion mare or stallion should be a proven
> performance *and breeding* horse--and should behave like a well-trained,
> civilized horse in the ring. Precisely because horses are more dangerous
> than most dogs, stallions must be mannerly--and a mannerly stallion will
> stand still on command and allow himself to be touched by a vet,
> farrier, and anyone else, including a horse-show judge. (We're
> talking nonpainful, reasonable touching, not tickling, hitting, or
> pinching, or course.)
I agree! Also, if a hands-on exam (like at a dog show) were a part of
showing, they might not be able to train the horses so severely. It
seems backwards to expect horses to remain fearful and aggressive
because the training can't be changed. Training techniques can be
improved if the judging rewards a calmer, more natural horse.
Mary Rossano
Mary Rossano
>
> it's like the difference between working sporting dogs and showing
> sporting dogs. The ones at the shows are all nervous energy and have
> feathers that drag the ground, a real working dog has a slick coat with
> just a fringe and a good demeanor.
Right, and with Arab halter, they breed for snort and blow. It's much
easier to train a high-strung horse to look scared than a quiet one.
Pity the poor horses who are pretty enough for halter, but lack the
"attitude". Those are the ones who really get raked over the coals by
the trainers who need to make them win for the owners.
Mary Rossano
Elizabeth Moon
>
> Elizabeth
> it's like the difference between working sporting dogs and showing
> sporting dogs. The ones at the shows are all nervous energy and have
> feathers that drag the ground, a real working dog has a slick coat with just
> a fringe and a good demeanor.
>
> --
> Tracy Meisenbach
Tracy,
There is a difference: these are horses, not dogs, and I see no reason
why horse breeders should replicate the worst excesses of dog shows
anyway.
Besides, the Arabians being shown in Texas in the '60s to mid-'70s by the
traditional breeders *were* show horses, but were not crazy. That's one
thing which impressed me and attracted me to the breed--in comparison
with the QH and Paints, who looked half-dead both in and out of the ring,
and the Saddlebreds, TWH, and TBs, who looked crazy and out of control
both in and out of the ring. The Arabians would stand around calmly,
being petted on by passers-by...and then go in the ring and turn on the
fire. Looked like a nice contrast, and fun to boot. I remember one
particular pair of classes (saddle-seat classes for juniors) that were
back-to-back--Saddlebreds, then Arabians. The Arabians and their riders
were clumped in the waiting area, watching the previous class--horses
were placid, standing there like any mannerly horse when its rider has
stopped to chat with someone, and riders were chatting with each other,
commenting on the class, etc. Meanwhile, the Saddlebreds were being led
(dragged in some cases) down the corridor to the ring, always requiring
at least one groom (sometimes two) on a lead line, shying and skittering,
high-headed, etc., while their junior riders struggled to get some kind
of control. At the gate, groomed unclipped the leads, and the
Saddlebreds erupted into the ring like so many bursting grenades. Not
one actually did a flat walk. Only one picked up a correct lead on the
first try at canter (and that one wouldn't take the other lead later in
the class); most of them never did canter on the correct lead, and there
were two runaways. They finally got those crazy horses out of the ring,
and the kids on Arabians sat up, put their hats back on, stuck their feet
in the stirrups, and picked up the reins. The horses perked up, tucked
their noses, lifted their tails, and one by one (no kicking, no shying)
pranced into the ring at a "fiery" but controllable trot. Every horse
walked on command. Every horse trotted on command. Every horse took the
correct lead on the first try, and took both leads easily. And every one
of them exuded "sparkle"...they looked proud, eager, happy--but not
crazy. Now a lot of that's training--it's possible that some of those
Saddlebreds were just as sensible by nature--but part of it's also
genetic. Some horses are born more sensible than others, and the
ordinary Arabian of that era was "hot" enough for anyone who wanted a
horse for a reasonable use.
However, at one of the big San Antonio shows somewhere in the '70s (can't
remember the exact year, but probably about '74-75), the new-style
Arabians showed up for the first time. They had so much "animation" that
they were a hazard going down the aisles to the wash rack (never mind the
tantrums in the wash rack.) Since I was hanging around the barns looking
at horses and thinking what breed and bloodlines I might want someday, I
noticed that these horses were also being difficult about many things
which the other Arabians took calmly. And since I'd been around awhile,
I noticed that some of these horses had the same trainers (thus probably
the same techniques had been used) as the calmer traditional type
Arabians their rich owners used to have. So it wasn't all a training
problem...these were hotter than the others, and more difficult, and on
top of that they were pretty in the rarified way of an overbred show dog.
Their rich owners, looking for tax shelters and ignorant of horses as
using animals, were already exclaiming to each other over longer necks,
flatter croups, longer legs, more "exquisite" heads. One of the small
breeders I knew shook her head and said "We had a tough enough time not
going like the show-dog people before, but with this much money pouring
in, I don't know--it may ruin the breed." I remember an article (I think
in Arabian Horse News) from a disgruntled rich new breeder about how
judges just didn't "understand" how much better the taller, skinnier,
Arabian was than the "unrefined" ones. A few years later, enough judges
had been converted that this type began winning.
When people who do not themselves use horses for anything, and have no
understanding of "enough" ("enough" length of neck, "enough" animation),
get into breeding and dominate a breed, there's going to be distortion.
Genetic distortion is bad, both for the future of the breed, and for the
reputation of the breed. It's particularly bad for a breed in which a
balance of qualities creates the ideal, as was true of Arabians.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Moon
It's because they don't understand real anatomy and function, and where
the windpipe really goes. Consider the Lippizan...not known for
pencil-thin necks, but flexibility and lightness they have in abundance.
Ease of collection is related to the skeleton, and the kind of heavy
muscle that these peoplet think inhibits collection starts further in,
with the way the cervical vertebrae are put together. (The muscle is a
result of "not-easy-to-collect" bones, and the training methods which
haven't recognized the skeletal problem, not the cause of difficulty in
collection.) You can sweat it all you want; you could cut it out; you
still wouldn't get the same shape neck as a horse internally built for
collection and flexion.
Ignatzmom
>understanding of "enough" ("enough" length of neck, "enough" animation),
>get into breeding and dominate a breed, there's going to be distortion.
>Genetic distortion is bad, both for the future of the breed, and for the
>reputation of the breed. It's particularly bad for a breed in which a
>balance of qualities creates the ideal, as was true of Arabians.
>
>Elizabeth
>
>
>
To which I reply, Amen!!! Thank God for NATRC and Endurance riding, making it
possible for decent Arabians to still be found.
Lee Z, Still riding after all these years.
Elizabeth Moon
>
> In article <19981031115054...@ng137.aol.com>,
> igna...@aol.com (Ignatzmom) wrote:
> >>When people who do not themselves use horses for anything, and have no
> >>understanding of "enough" ("enough" length of neck, "enough" animation),
> >>get into breeding and dominate a breed, there's going to be distortion.
> >>Genetic distortion is bad, both for the future of the breed, and for the
> >>reputation of the breed. It's particularly bad for a breed in which a
> >>balance of qualities creates the ideal, as was true of Arabians.
> >>
> >>Elizabeth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >possible for decent Arabians to still be found.
> >Lee Z, Still riding after all these years.
> >
>
> such as the Crabbet associations, the breeders who breed for working Arabians
> such as the Al-Marah line.
>
> Sue whose very good friend Melanie Johnson owns a three times National Champion
> Cutting Arabian. AM Bukaneers Lass
Obviously I need to get back to you and find out more about this, if I
decide to breed Kuincey to an Arabian. She has good basic conformation;
I want to build on that, and get a little less reactivity. The small
breeders I knew in the 70s are all gone now, so the only nearby stallions
I know of (there are probably others, but I don't know how to find them)
are the kind I don't want.
Elizabeth, who can't breed right now anyway, since we don't have the
facilities for bringing up baby.
Spellbound
I'm not recommending it! I'm flat against it!. I remember seeing those
beautiful sons of Naborr at the Scottsdale shows, all glowing white and calm
majestic presence. I hate this rip snorting crap, just like I hated it at
dog shows, which is why I quit showing dogs after 15 years, too much junk
getting tagged in the ring.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Elizabeth Moon wrote in message <363B4F...@sff.net>...
Gbeager
A few years ago I took care of an Arabian stallion named Jackrada, or Jac
Parada (we just called him Rada).He was 18 yrs. at the time. He was a former
champion halter horse and the owners were going to show him in performance
(west. pl., I think), but he got a bone chip in his shoulder and was restricted
to breeding and light riding. I always refered to him as an Arab Warmblood, he
had such a solid build. And he was a sweetheart of a stallion (to me, at
least); in the six months that I rode him he never spooked, his gaits were
smooth and he was easy to ride. I'm sure this stallion would have done well in
performance classes. This is a stallion that I would (theoreticly) breed to. He
had good basic conformation and a temperment that I would want passed down. I
was very surprised when I saw the pix of the current champion and heard the
discriptions of the behavior of halter stallions. I'm sorry to hear that this
is what the ideal arabian is supposed to be. Not something that I would want to
breed. And I don't think Rada would have a chance in the halter classes today.
Not a good sign, since fashions may come and go, but good conformation,
temperment and atheletic ability never change. (Neither does bad spelling, ;)
Sutterkid
Neither would my 23 year old Naborr* grandson. He and I do trails and often
ride around a very suburban neighborhood. He has spirit, but he has "good
sense" and he has never exhibited stupid dangerous behaviors no matter what
situation we're in. And in my mind, he has a lovely confirmation. 15h exactly.
Short back, shorter arched neck, refined head (no dish), huge eyes, sturdy
short legs, and a nice tail carriage.
I went to an Arab show a couple of years ago and was so disgusted that I would
never go back. They had many horses there well enclosed due to their nasty
behavioral problems, they were all prancy dancy idiots. Absolutely amazing.
I have had complete stangers come up to me and ask me what kind of horse I had.
When I said "Arabian" they said, "Are you sure?"
The idiot horse owned by my nieghbor is an Arabian. A skinny (her fault) long
necked (breeder's fault) complete fool of a horse (combo of owner and breeder's
faults). Passersby always say how *pretty* he is and blah blah blah. Usually he
get so wired from people coming up to see him he can't stop racing around.
Meanwhile my two are snoozing or poking around with interest at visitors.
I really don't think my next horse will be an Arab. It pisses me off that I
have had conversations with Arab "breeders" nowadays who have never even heard
of Naborr*. And I've never heard of their breeding stock either. I guess I'm
conpletely out of it when it comes to the "newer" Arabs.
There was one day however, a few years ago, when my horse and I were out
riding past a small Arabian breeding facility. And older woman came out to
chat. She looked at my gelding and said, "What a nice tempered gelding.....my
goodness........he almost looks like Naborr*" Glad somebody remembers.
-Sutter
Schmdthaus
Short back, shorter arched neck, refined head (no dish), huge eyes, sturdy
short legs, and a nice tail carriage.>>
You just described our old stud, Sutter. He's a Tuhotmos grandson, out of a
Silver Drift granddaughter. Lots of Raffon blood. He has a mind and a quiet
disposition.
And he is also . . . are you sitting down? . . . a really nice RIDING horse!
Laur
TBTrlRider
>
>Don't give up. There ARE older style ARabians out there. The breeders have
>withdrawn from the show ring and are biding their time.
>
Sue.....are any of these in the Ill/Wis area?
Some time next spring/summer, I'll be ready to start my new-horse-hunt. I used
to own an "old-style" Arab (I guess that's what you'd call Miti)--short,
compact, and could go for miles (and miles and mi....) I stumbled upon him at
a YMCA camp---he was blind in one eye and was determined to be too spooky
(read: to much lawsuit potential in our wonderful society) to be used as a
lesson horse. I paid a whopping $175 for him (8 yrs ago)---later gave him to a
friend when I discovered I didn't have time for both horses. Miti's still out
there--sounder (at 26) than Kay's QH gelding. Watch the Chicago Brach's
Christmas Parade on tv---he'll be there.
(He's the little flea-bitten gray, in a sidepull, next to a chunky little
chestnut QH)
Carol Nichols
Libertyville, IL
finally thinking about another horse of my own
Sharon Potter
living....correct and typey, good substance, clean legs at 17 years
young....he jumps, trail rides and has done endurance, team pens on
occasion, and has won many show championships as well (including halter). He
has a wonderful disposition, and passes it on. We do have one very sweet
gelding for sale by him....lightly started.
We do breed a few mares, but usually people are scared off by the stud fee
($800)....they figure it's too low????and he is sweepstakes nominated. His
ratio of champions sired is right around 50%....
Oh, and Jessica Snyder....if you're reading this...of course I'm talking
about my best buddy Imatok<G>
Sharon Potter (who likes a correct horse with a brain and substance!)
CMNewell
*real* Arabs, and they have actual croups, proportional neck length,
*very little dish*, *excellent* width between the jaws. In short, they
have only the faintest resemblance to the crap in the halter ring.
(BTW, at the Syrian Ag Ministry's meeting, one of the Syrian breeders
asked about Amreicans doing plastic surgery on their horses. He was
appalled, and the clear implication was that he would *not* sell
horses to such people.)
CMNewell, DVM
*****
Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
The Chuck of Eq
CMNewell
Pattee) wrote:
>There's no requirement for the judge to touch the horse. There's no
>requirement for the horse to be sweet and/or well-mannered.
Yes, there is.
AHSA RuleXVI, Chapter II, Art.1607, 3a)...Emphasis shall be placed in
the following order of importance: type, conformation, suitability as
a breeding animal, quality, movement, substance, manners, and
presence.
CMNewell
>Sue Bishop wrote:
>>
>>Don't give up. There ARE older style ARabians out there. The breeders have
>>withdrawn from the show ring and are biding their time.
>>
>Sue.....are any of these in the Ill/Wis area?
Get your butt to Winchester, Illinios, and you will see about 150 of
them at Craver Farms. I just spent two weeks in Syria looking at
Bedouin bred Arabians, and you could plunk any of Charles and
Jeannes' horses into the group, and not be able to tell them apart.
Elizabeth Moon
>
> On 30 Oct 1998 08:58:10 -0700, pat...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU (Donna
> Pattee) wrote:
>
> >There's no requirement for the judge to touch the horse. There's no
> >requirement for the horse to be sweet and/or well-mannered.
>
> Yes, there is.
> AHSA RuleXVI, Chapter II, Art.1607, 3a)...Emphasis shall be placed in
> the following order of importance: type, conformation, suitability as
> a breeding animal, quality, movement, substance, manners, and
> presence.
>
>
>
> *****
> Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
> Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
> The Chuck of Eq
And wouldn't it cause a riot if they actually judged in that order?
"I'm sorry, sir or madam, but the fact that your horse is flinging his
tail over his back, and rearing up every two steps, does not excuse his
kicking the judge who wanted to feel through the fat to find where his
bones actually are. You are excused."
Spellbound
But did you bring one back with you? Did you take pictures, I'd like to
see some if so. I love the desert look, but around here Egyptian Arab means
tiny, dainty, and extreme. Do you have the Pictorial History of Polish
Arabians, the horses in there are wonderful, solid but elegant. You could
that they would ride and move well.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
CMNewell wrote in message <363cb635...@news.ma.ultranet.com>...
>Cheer up, guys. I just spent two weeks in Jordan and Syria, looking at
>*real* Arabs, and they have actual croups, proportional neck length,
>*very little dish*, *excellent* width between the jaws. In short, they
>have only the faintest resemblance to the crap in the halter ring.
>
>(BTW, at the Syrian Ag Ministry's meeting, one of the Syrian breeders
>asked about Amreicans doing plastic surgery on their horses. He was
>appalled, and the clear implication was that he would *not* sell
>horses to such people.)
Schmdthaus
*real* Arabs, and they have actual croups, proportional neck length,
*very little dish*, *excellent* width between the jaws. In short, they
have only the faintest resemblance to the crap in the halter ring.>>
Good news that brightened a dreary day!
Schmdthaus
"I'm sorry, sir or madam, but the fact that your horse is flinging his
tail over his back, and rearing up every two steps, does not excuse his
kicking the judge who wanted to feel through the fat to find where his
bones actually are. You are excused.">>
Or, "My profoundest apologies, Mr. Big Hair, but since your horse never
actually TROTTED, I am unable to discern whether it is ABLE to trot. The gate
is to your left."
Jessica Snyder
Mary Rossano wrote:
>
> Right, and with Arab halter, they breed for snort and blow. It's much
> easier to train a high-strung horse to look scared than a quiet one.
> Pity the poor horses who are pretty enough for halter, but lack the
> "attitude". Those are the ones who really get raked over the coals by
> the trainers who need to make them win for the owners.
Yep... we had one of these, before we were experienced enough to be
suspicious of how he was being "trained". Very pretty guy, super
super laid back, friendly, mellow attitude. We sold him relatively
early on in his halter training "career" (he went top ten Canadian
futurity horse, I think), but sadly he was kept with trainers who
needed him to look "hot" and "tight" in the show ring. I know
that poor horse got the crap beaten out of him regularly, but by
then he was out of our hands and owned by folks who didn't
know or care any better.
We heard a few years later that he finally attacked and damaged one
of the "trainers" he was with. We cheered.
Last I heard, he was making someone in California *very* happy
as a Western Pleasure gelding. Hope he's still ok... he deserves
a nice home who will appreciate his basic kind self... presuming it's
still there after all that abuse.
--
Jessica
------------------------------------------
jrsnyder@NO SPAM students.wisc.edu (remove
NO SPAM to reply)
"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having
enough sense to be lazy."
------------------------------------------
Jessica Snyder
Ignatzmom wrote:
>
> To which I reply, Amen!!! Thank God for NATRC and Endurance riding, making it
> possible for decent Arabians to still be found.
> Lee Z, Still riding after all these years.
I feel compelled to point out that there are STILL many Arabians in the
show ring who are very similar to the horses Elizabeth described in her
post (the earlier versions, that is). I can't go to a Class A show without
seeing many very young riders on their beautiful Arabians
who are being *very careful* to take care of the little kids on their backs.
Horses standing around the in-gate with horses, cars, people, dogs,
etc. all wandering past them, simply hanging out and enjoying the view,
totally relaxed. Mellow, calm horses who happily pick themselves up
when they enter the ring and just have a blast in there.
I can't walk down an aisle without seeing a horse standing, no
lead, no tie, nothing, being tacked or untacked or groomed or
washed, standing totally calm and mellow. Often with a small child
near his/her knees.
Yes, there are a lot of problems with the Arabian show ring and with
the influence of the "halter look". But that doesn't mean that all
the horses in the ring are worthless... heck, a whole lot of halter
horses are, believe it or not, also very good horses!!!
Just because a horse is being shown in the halter ring, that doesn't
make it "halter crap". There are good ones and bad ones and
lots in between, just like everywhere else. And just because the
"big money/big advertiser/big image" farms are focusing on the
extreme halter horse (or the extreme English Pleasure horse, which
I find just as offensive in terms of what it is doing to real Arabian
type and structure), it doesn't mean the whole breed is headed
that way. And, some "halter lines" can produce excellent
performance horses. My old mare Liza was bred to be a halter
horse... and I've never met yet a mare with bigger, stronger bone,
a more powerful hip, straighter stronger legs, more beautiful
fluid round movement, etc. She was by *Padron... who is
the grandsire of Magnum Psyche.
Bash the individual horses, bash the system, but don't presume every
product of the system is a bad one.
Jessica Snyder
Sutterkid wrote:
>I really don't think my next horse will be an Arab. It pisses me off that I
> have had conversations with Arab "breeders" nowadays who have never even heard
> of Naborr*. And I've never heard of their breeding stock either. I guess I'm
> conpletely out of it when it comes to the "newer" Arabs.
You'll be pleased to hear that there is a network of breeders trying to preserve
the existing *Naborr lines and gather them together into an organized program.
You aren't the only one who thinks those lines should be preserved!!
My goal is to find a mare with close *Naborr breeding and structure (just as you
describe), add some Crabbet on the tail female line, and breed it to a
quality *Padron bred stallion who also has Crabbet on his bottom line.
If I got the right horses, I'd get the build and temperment I want in my
Arabians.
Jessica (who grew up on a *Naborr granddaughter... who was Tap's
gramma... making Tap a *Naborr great-great grandson. And
you can clearly still see the influence of that great horse on his build)
Spellbound
surprise if his horses actually behaved in the ring. I remember a show in
Scottsdale years ago when the younger Gene Lacroix came out second in a
halter class, as he left the arena he turned to his father who had been
standing by the gate and said " What could I do he (the horse) just stood
there!"
We all cracked up because we had been remarking how ell behaved his horse
was for the first time.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Schmdthaus wrote in message <19981101171250...@ng134.aol.com>...
Jessica Snyder
TBTrlRider wrote:
> Sue Bishop wrote:
> >
> >Don't give up. There ARE older style ARabians out there. The breeders have
> >withdrawn from the show ring and are biding their time.
Exactly.
>
> Sue.....are any of these in the Ill/Wis area?
I know of two fillies where I board that are very nice (we're just south
of Madison, WI). One has lighter bone than I like, but an excellent
body structure and a sweet face (not extreme). The other is just
an overall well balanced, pretty filly. Lots of potential... I think
they're both two year olds. Sired by a stallion whose Regional
win was in Show Hack, back when Show Hack actually required
some dressage skill! They breed for performance Arabians at this
farm; I recommend you check them out if/when you go horse-
hunting. And you could meet Tap and Free as a bonus! :-)
--
Jessica
Jessica Snyder
Hi Sharon! Didn't know you were lurking here!
Sharon Potter wrote:
> We're in WI and have a Crabbet/Russian stallion who actually works for a
> living....correct and typey, good substance, clean legs at 17 years
> young....he jumps, trail rides and has done endurance, team pens on
> occasion, and has won many show championships as well (including halter).
(snip)
> Oh, and Jessica Snyder....if you're reading this...of course I'm talking
> about my best buddy Imatok<G>
I figured ;-) Let me second this recommendation! Imatok has been
siring exceptional all-around pretty athletes with sound Arabian minds for
years. I recall when you, Sharon, were riding Imatok at the horse fair bareback
and using only a halter and lead rope. He was so cute: totally collected,
calm, and happy, being Mr. Perfect behavior amidst the chaos of
other stallions, strollers, kids, dogs, people, etc. A fantastic ambassador
of the Arabian breed.
They ARE out there, folks. Ya just gotta look for them.
Jessica (getting more and more frustrated at not being able to ride...
only one more month until baby delivery, hopefully I'll be back
in the saddle by January!)
Spellbound
I've noticed that too! If you want to find the horses farthest from "
type" go to the kids' classes, thats where you'll see the steady elegant and
beautiful horses of yesteryear performing. Not bred out of mind and body but
glorious and calm.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Jessica Snyder wrote in message <363D0C58...@students.wisc.edu>...
Spellbound
I'm not sure if she's still breeding them, but Joyce McCluskey of
Huachuca City, AZ had the most beautiful Naborr horses. She had a daughter,
Maborr and a grandson, Count Emaus by Emaus, of Naborr. She usually crossed
in with Bazy Tankersly's stock and had the most wonderful babies. I bought
my Arab gelding Shabin 2xNaborr 1 Raffles from her and he was a do
everything horse from the get go. It's been awhile since I talked to Joyce
but if I can find her number I'll send it to you.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Jessica Snyder wrote in message <363D0D8C...@students.wisc.edu>...
>
>
>Sutterkid wrote:
>>I really don't think my next horse will be an Arab. It pisses me off that
I
>
>> have had conversations with Arab "breeders" nowadays who have never even
heard
>> of Naborr*. And I've never heard of their breeding stock either. I guess
I'm
>> conpletely out of it when it comes to the "newer" Arabs.
>
>You'll be pleased to hear that there is a network of breeders trying to
preserve
>the existing *Naborr lines and gather them together into an organized
program.
>You aren't the only one who thinks those lines should be preserved!!
>
>My goal is to find a mare with close *Naborr breeding and structure (just
as you
>describe), add some Crabbet on the tail female line, and breed it to a
>quality *Padron bred stallion who also has Crabbet on his bottom line.
>If I got the right horses, I'd get the build and temperment I want in my
>Arabians.
>
>Jessica (who grew up on a *Naborr granddaughter... who was Tap's
>gramma... making Tap a *Naborr great-great grandson. And
>you can clearly still see the influence of that great horse on his build)
>
Spellbound
I had a similar reaction with my mustang. He had been abused and at one
playday we were sitting outside the gate waiting to go in when he suddenly
went backwards. I got him stopped and then saw his ex owner had walked past
the gate to the chutes. It took years before this horse wouldn't pin his
ears at men who touched him. He was also rolled in a trailer and for the
first 4 years I had him he wouldn't get near one without freaking. He
finally realized that no one was going to beat him or starve him and that
trailers didn't hurt.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Mainesrus wrote in message <19981101211033...@ng109.aol.com>...
>>
>>futurity horse, I think), but sadly he was kept with trainers who
>>needed him to look "hot" and "tight" in the show ring. I know
>>that poor horse got the crap beaten out of him regularly
>
>I retrained one who'd been thru that mill, and then on into EP...took a lot
of
>work, and I didn't realize what exactly the problem was until a friend who
was
>making Arab show halters asked to use our mare and my SO to model an
>advertising shot. We got the show halter on this mare...and she plain
freaked
>out...luckily settled enough to not blow skyhigh against the photog's
backdrop
>and all the lights, but she put her head up, stood up on her own, and then
>froze...shaking and within seconds dripping sweat. My husband was wearing a
>dark suit (like a saddle suit)...and the poor mare was even petrified of
him,
>whom she normally adored.
>
>It was then that I realized that the trailer accident that left her too
badly
>scarred up to ever be shown again at halter, might have been the best
darned
>thing that happened to her. She was in a trailer that rolled, and got
pinned
>under the partition and the other horse. Scarred her head, chest, and one
>foreleg up pretty badly, and left her with one ear that she couldn't hold
>completely erect.
>
>Something very horrible happened to that poor mare, and she associated it
with
>a show halter...only things that would completely freak her out were men in
>dark suits or vests, side-by-side trailers, and a show halter...
>
>Best, Reva (we got her over men in dress clothes, could care less about
show
>halters, and hauled her in a slant-load)
Spellbound
There was a big debate awhile back about helmet rules, one of the dark
hair trainers cracked that the Big Haired one wouldn't need a helmet he had
so much hair spray on if he fell off his head would bounce!
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Spellbound Performance Horses
When anyone thinks he has found something new,
he may be sure that some old riding master has had the same
experience and that it has been only temporarily forgotten.
Alois Podhajsky- Principals of Classical Horsemanship.
Alwzhorsn wrote in message <19981101223857...@ng70.aol.com>...
>>Or, "My profoundest apologies, Mr. Big Hair, but since your horse never
>>actually TROTTED, I am unable to discern whether it is ABLE to trot. The
gate
>>is to your left."
>
>You know what the biggest prize at the show is? THE GATE! And all 'big
hairs'
>deserve one.
>
>LOL!
>
>Jennifer
>alwz...@aol.com
>
>Fan of the Crabby Crabbets, dabbler of the Polish, and developing an
>appreciation for some Spanish.
michele
Beau, who does dressage, WP, hunter (complete with beautiful bascule),
and possibly drives.
Descended from Komarr Grey Beau. (Correct my spelling, please.)
He's about as Crabbett looking as you can get. And for a rank beginner
like her, the best lesson horse she could've bought.
Michele
(remove * to reply)
sheila...@my-dejanews.com
> Cheer up, guys. I just spent two weeks in Jordan and Syria, looking at
> *real* Arabs, and they have actual croups, proportional neck length,
> *very little dish*, *excellent* width between the jaws. In short, they
> have only the faintest resemblance to the crap in the halter ring.
Thank Gawd that hasn't changed.
> (BTW, at the Syrian Ag Ministry's meeting, one of the Syrian breeders
> asked about Amreicans doing plastic surgery on their horses. He was
> appalled, and the clear implication was that he would *not* sell
> horses to such people.)
> CMNewell, DVM
> *****
> Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
> Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
> The Chuck of Eq
That's reassuring, too. Welcome back, Charlotte;
got any travel pics?
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior
green*@tristate.pgh.net] "Eat me, and use your head for better than the
absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
>
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Mainesrus
Alwzhorsn
Alwzhorsn
Just a word from the West Coast here! There are indeed some great Crabbet
horses left and some are in California. Remember that Ben Rabba himself was a
Caleefornee guy and many of his get, grandget, etc, etc, etc can be found here.
(Warning: Blatant commercial to follow)
Bob Brooks of Clements, CA, rides a stallion named JO JO DANCER. Jo Jo is a
consistent winner in both Open and Arab Reining classes and is now expanding
that career to Trail and Western Pleasure (including classes with his AO
Lynette Hart).
Jo Jo is by Mij Jatal (Zadir x Mij Khaletta by Narlani) and is out of Benraz
Miss (Benraz++/ x Miss Sue by Farlowa). His babies are winning big in halter
(both the purebreds and half Arabs) and are just beginning to show under
saddle. One colt has already been burning up the ring in Open Reining
competition. Jo Jo will be available by shipped semen in 1999. Sweepstakes
nominated.
There are many other horses out here that are worthy of consideration. Like
many folks have commented in this thread, a lot of the breeders of these types
of horses don't show as much as some other bloodlines, especially in the
halter. However you can often find them competing in the western division.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
> I've noticed that too! If you want to find the horses farthest from "
type" go to the kids' classes, thats where you'll see the steady elegant and
beautiful horses of yesteryear performing. Not bred out of mind and body but
glorious and calm.
>
When I put my 14 yr old *Barich de Washoe daughter up for sale many folks
thought I was asking too much for her (but in the same breath cursed me for
breeding her to a *gasp* Quarter Horse). She is a pretty mare who is able to be
ridden by darn near anyone. While she might not fit the current 'type' she very
easily could have fit into the kids' classes. However she's been purchased by
an over 40 lady who needed a solid steady horse. Her gain, the showrings' loss.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
PS - I got my asking price too! LOL
Sutterkid
Sue,
A family friend traced my gelding's Dam line to Queen of Sheba and gave me a
bit of informaiton on the mare and the Crabbet line that was quite interesting.
She was foaled almost exactly 100 years before my gelding.
-Sutter