Equine Affaire/Parelli
danh
interested. Did anyone witness this?
"There have been several e-mails describing what happened Thursday evening,
January 30 at Equine Affaire in Pomona, California. Most of them are fairly
factual. Since I'm the public relations person for Parelli Natural
Horsemanship, I feel it incumbent upon me to let you all know what happened
and how Pat, Linda, PNH President Mark Weiler and I are responding to it.
"In essence, last year in Ohio the management of Equine Affaire asked us to
not jump picnic tables in our demonstration, and to cease having drawings at
our booth. We had several meetings with them and proceeded with our typical
demonstrations. We met again in Kentucky to discuss our headlining the three
Equine Affaire events this year. Equine Affaire asked what it would take for
us to appear at their venues, and we essentially replied, "Just let us do
what we do."
"At Pomona, it is unclear to me if indeed any of the Equine Affaire
management talked to any Parelli personnel (those who could actually take
action) before the performance on Thursday evening.
"During the Savvy Team presentation, Linda did indeed jump her athletic
Warmblood, Remmer, over a picnic table. After the Savvy Team exited and Pat
was playing with his stallion Liberty in the arena, the two women who manage
the show were up in the announcer booth. I watched as they gave the
announcer a typewritten script to read. They exited the booth and the
announcer terminated Pat's audio source and read the script to the audience.
It was a two-page typewritten script, so I won't reprint the entire thing.
But here is what I can give you verbatim that sums their script:
"Ladies and gentlemen, I regret that I must inform you that the management
of Equine Affaire has decided to interrupt Mr. Parelli's presentation this
evening because Mr. Parelli has decided to engage in activities that we
believe do not represent responsible and safe horsemanship and we do not
want to condone or promote such activities."
"They went on to make a statement about how they select clinicians with
utmost care, and "therefore, we reserve the right to ensure that the actions
and activities, as well as the verbal messages, of clinicians are always
appropriate, safe and educational."
"It goes on to state, "...Mr. Parelli has chosen to engage in activities
this
evening that we believe demonstrate, and therefore promote, inappropriate
and unsafe horsemanship."
"It ends with, "We hope you will understand and support our position and our
decision to terminate this session."
"Pat was then asked to leave the arena and the audience was told that the
evening's session was ended and they were also asked to leave the arena.
"You could have heard a pin drop. Many people thought it was a joke. Others
simply sat there in silence, literally not knowing what to do. Pat continued
to play with Liberty, saying (without a microphone) "I'll leave just as soon
as I can catch my horse."
"Some people started chanting "REFUND, REFUND." Another woman came down from
the stands and said in a very stentorian voice to the assembled mass of
about 2,000 people, "How many people are only here because of Pat Parelli?"
"The audience became vocal in their support of having Pat continue with the
show, chanting, clapping and stomping their feet ("WE WANT PAT, WE WANT
PAT"). Several angry people marched up to the announcer's booth, demanding
that Pat's microphone be turned back on.
"After a few minutes, apparently the Equine Affaire management ladies
determined that it would be in the best interest for all involved to turn
Pat's mike back on, which they did.
"Pat continued with his presentation with great dignity and sportsmanlike
behavior. He was a true gentleman about the entire situation. As Pat says,
his job is inspiration, and our job is perspiration. The evening ended with
Honza, Gaston and Cookie (his new horse) giving a sterling performance; the
crowd awarded him with a standing ovation.
"The next day, I asked management for a printed copy of the speech, which I
finally obtained. A number of people wrote letters of complaint which were
delivered to the show office. Others e-mailed their messages of indignation
to Equine Affaire. One man came to the Parelli Collection booth just to buy
a shirt with a logo on it so he could march into the Equine Affaire office
and show his allegiance.
"On Friday afternoon Equine Affaire management chose to write a two-page
"explanation of what happened during Pat Parelli's session on Thursday night
at Equine Affaire" and made it available to anyone who asked for it. In
essence it stated the same philosophy about safe horsemanship, their concern
about education, and about asking Pat and Linda to not jump a picnic table.
They only expressed concern about that one thing --- not about helmets or
anything else. They ended the document with "In order to stop an activity
which we believe was unsafe and inappropriate, we interrupted the session."
It said nothing about trying to shut it down.
"On Friday, a caveat was verbally announced by Equine Affaire management
before the Parelli presentations. It simply said that management did not
agree with everything presented by the Parellis. Pat and Linda were pleased
with that, and thought it should be read before each of their performances.
On a personal note (I can't help myself), I would add that perhaps they
should have read the same caveat before the performance wherein a clinician
sacked out a green horse, bucked him out, didn't tighten the cinch properly,
and the horse caught a hind leg in the stirrup as he was bucking. Or perhaps
they should have read the same caveat before a clinician's performance who
prided himself in getting a totally green two-year-old bridled, saddled and
ridden in 18 minutes flat.
"As you all know, Parelli Natural Horsemanship is about prior and proper
preparation. We're about achieving dreams and goals ---- THROUGH EDUCATION,
KNOWLEDGE, TOOLS, TIMING, ATTITUDE, IMAGINATION, TECHNIQUES and SAVVY. We
have a system that teaches people, step by step, about how to achieve those
goals --- safely.
"I've been asked what is appropriate action for people to voice their
concerns to Equine Affaire management about this event on Thursday evening.
That choice is up to you. If you choose, you may e-mail them at
info@e..., or you can do nothing. We honor whatever decision
you make.
"Please know that Pat, Linda, and all of us at PNH were heartened by the
audience's response. We are making a difference, and along with your
dedication and voice, the world for horses will become a NATURAL one,
because we all have hearts that care.
"If you have any other questions, you may e-mail me at irishkate@p...
"Thanks for taking the time to read this. And remember, Keep It Natural!
"Kate Riordan, Director of Public Relations for PNH"
Ken Brown
Damn, Dan .. you still a PP apologist?
Bwahahahaha ... <BSEG>
I'll call ya soon enough and we can catch up on weather and progress.
<snip Damage Control release>
------------------------
"Put two hundred miles on
your horse, then come back
and see me."
- attributed to Buster Welch
Nancy DeMarco
a picnic table? Were there people eating at it? :)
Nancy DeMarco
HHamp5246
>a picnic table? Were there people eating at it? :)
Hahaha, that's what I thought. Hell, a picnic table is what? Three feet high
and 3 feet wide...... any of my horses could jump that.
Hunter
Jim
>"There have been several e-mails describing what happened Thursday evening,
>January 30 at Equine Affaire in Pomona, California. Most of them are fairly
>factual. Since I'm the public relations person for Parelli Natural
>Horsemanship, I feel it incumbent upon me to let you all know what happened
>and how Pat, Linda, PNH President Mark Weiler and I are responding to it.
<major snip>
>"If you have any other questions, you may e-mail me at irishkate@p...
>
>"Thanks for taking the time to read this. And remember, Keep It Natural!
>
>"Kate Riordan, Director of Public Relations for PNH"
The contact information for Equine Affaire is at:
http://www.equineaffaire.com/contact/index.html
Jim
Bill Kambic
> I'm not a Parelli fan, but what is supposedly dangerous about jumping
> a picnic table? Were there people eating at it? :)
The only thing I can think of is that the insurance company voiced concerns.
Their objection would NOT be that one of the Parelli team might get injured
(they "assume the risk") but that some moron in the stands would go out and
try it at home, get injured, and then sue Equine Affair, the Parellis, the
manufacturer of the picnic table, etc. And, being in The Breakfast Cerial
State, might have a shot at some dough.
Of course, if this were the case, the "brainless, spineless jellyfish"
running the show couldn't even cancel an event right!!!!!!
But, as in anything else like this, we only have one point of view (the
Parelli's). There might have been other factors in play.
Just another reason to avoid "PR Demos" in my book!<g>
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
P.S. If they had used an old Jeep instead of picnic table they could have
said they were just re-enacting a common trick performed by members of the
latter day U.S. Cavalry!<g>
Tamara Howard
>
> "It goes on to state, "...Mr. Parelli has chosen to engage in activities
> this
> evening that we believe demonstrate, and therefore promote, inappropriate
> and unsafe horsemanship."
>
> "It ends with, "We hope you will understand and support our position and our
> decision to terminate this session."
>
> "Pat was then asked to leave the arena and the audience was told that the
> evening's session was ended and they were also asked to leave the arena.
>
well good for Equine Affair! such stupidity as jumping picnic
tables and other non sense belong in the circus where it is
understood to be a big show... not to a crowd of un in formed wanne
be horse trainers who have not enough collective sense not to
try it...and what had happend to
Equine Affair when some horse crazed 13 year old girl gets
smashed to hell trying to jump a table the next weekend ?? by
allowing it to continue they support and condone it and would
probably get sued right along with Pat...shame on the Parelli
group and well done Equine Affair
Tamara in TN
Madeline Rockwell
"Tamara Howard" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
news:4cb43db8.03020...@posting.google.com...
> tables and other non sense belong in the circus where it is
> understood to be a big show... not to a crowd of un in formed wanne
> be horse trainers who have not enough collective sense not to
> try it...and what had happend to
> Equine Affair when some horse crazed 13 year old girl gets
> smashed to hell trying to jump a table the next weekend ?? by
> allowing it to continue they support and condone it and would
> probably get sued right along with Pat...shame on the Parelli
> group and well done Equine Affair
How silly! Every self respecting cross country course has a picnic table. As
do most hunter paces. Jumping picnic tables is only slightly more of a
"Daredevil act" than jumping an oxer with standards. I suspect that many
more people have jumped picnic tables than have jumped an actual water jump.
Picnic tables are often the schooling fence of choice among the
schooling-fence deprived.
Now, if the Parelli's were jumping manure spreaders or snowplows or Hummers,
you would have a point. But picnic tables? Not a big deal...
madeline
Texas rider
Equine insurance on events is very expensive and specific. It does
seem a little odd they zeroed in on picnic table jumping. I've seen
much worse at these things such as the moron who rode a horse as fast
as possible bridleless around an arena and very nearly hit a pipe
fence as he was falling off at a high rate of speed (no helmet of
course). The insurance companies really don't like jumping and it is
often not allowed on policies. The fact that your horse could do it is
not important. A picnic table isn't a really big jump for a trained
jumper and rider, but they may have been concerned about the footing,
size of arena, insurance policy, etc.
I don't feel sorry for the Parelli's. They were told not to jump the
picnic table, they did it anyway, and got shut down. Happens all the
time. You do something you have been told not to do, and you get
disqualified, eliminated, fired, yelled at, put on probation, put in
time out if you're a child, etc. It doesn't show much respect for the
organizers who probably had a valid reason why they didn't want them
doing that. I've had three clients in my life that felt that rules
were for other people, not them. All of them went to jail.
CG
Thomas Bloomer
>They were told not to jump the picnic table,
>they did it anyway, and got shut down.
Go read the original post - this time for comprehension. You are ASSuming
that they were told. Since it wasn't in writing, it doesn't matter anyway.
Equine Affair asked the Parellis to be at their events, not the other way
around. When you invite a "celebrity" to an event it is done to ATTRACT
PEOPLE. Most exhibitors pay a lot of money to participate in an event like
Equine Affair. I KNOW that the Parellis didn't pay to be there, because
they were the MAIN ATTRACTION - DUH!
The issue of the picnic table had already been discussed at previous events.
Obviously there was no written agreement to leave that out of the show. The
little stunt pulled with the PA system backfired on them - and they deserved
the response they got from the audience. If the management at Equine Affair
has any forethought, they will drop this issue and publicly apologize to the
Parellis. Any other course of action will be to the fiscal detriment of
Equine Affair . . . and their insurance company would not like that, would
they?
--
Tom Bloomer
Hartly, DE
Donna Pattee
The whole thing sounds like a Parelli set-up, a marketing ploy.
Francis Burton
Donna Pattee <pat...@spot.colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>The whole thing sounds like a Parelli set-up, a marketing ploy.
Oooh, you cynic! ;-)
Francis
Thomas Bloomer
Naw, If they were jumping a horse over Rush Limbaugh, THAT would be a
marketing ploy - especially if it was done on the Left coast . . .
Bwahahahahaah!
Rosie
the insurers of Equine Affaire & the Parelli's would like the "jumping
over the picnic table stunt" either. If the horse or rider makes a
last minute error, is startled, or, say, knuckles over at the precise
moment that it takes off to clear the table, a serious accident could
result by getting tangled up in the underside of the table or if
benches were atatched, get caught between them & the table. Why do we
have poles & jump cups anyway or fixed, stable jumps? The answer is
obvious. Can't you just hear it in court? Now how did you become
paralyzed or how did your horse break its leg? Was it the top or the
bottom of the picnic table as it turned over as your horse fell? Go
figure. news:<3e40...@snipnews.snip.net>...
danh
news:3e40...@snipnews.snip.net...
>
> >They were told not to jump the picnic table,
> >they did it anyway, and got shut down.
The predictable knee jerk reactions re Parelli always amuse me, especially
from those who did not witness the event. Aw hell, I coulda been a troll.
Damn! <g>
> Go read the original post - this time for comprehension. You are ASSuming
> that they were told. Since it wasn't in writing, it doesn't matter
anyway.
Equine Affaire in OH is early April. I'll be interested to see what
transpires and will report it here, if anyone cares to read it.
What I was really hoping was that someone who was at the Pomona event would
offer their perspective. Anyone out there like that?
[...]
CMNewell
wrote:
>But, as in anything else like this, we only have one point of view (the
>Parelli's). There might have been other factors in play.
>
Yeah, but even the PP POV has a sort of obnoxious tone to it--
"well, we were told not to do it, and then we were asked to do a demo
and said we woudl do 'our thing'".
In other words, they were fully aware that the EA management had a
problem with that particular element, and rather than hash it out
above-board, they chose to behave in a laess than forthright fashion.
Sort of sounds like the kid who askes Mom for a cookie, gets told
it'll ruin his dinner, then gets caught eating a candy bar and says,
"Well you didn't say I couldn't have that..."
--CMNewell, DVM self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"Nature, when she made the Arab, made no mistake, and man has not yet been able to spoil him."
--H. Davenport
Lou W
"Rosie" <Ro...@stockhorse.com> wrote in message
news:65565a48.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Speaking of insurance companies & hazardous activities, I doubt that
> the insurers of Equine Affaire & the Parelli's would like the "jumping
> over the picnic table stunt" either. If the horse or rider makes a
> last minute error, is startled, or, say, knuckles over at the precise
> moment that it takes off to clear the table, a serious accident could
> result by getting tangled up in the underside of the table or if
> benches were atatched, get caught between them & the table. Why do we
> have poles & jump cups anyway or fixed, stable jumps? The answer is
> obvious. Can't you just hear it in court? Now how did you become
> paralyzed or how did your horse break its leg? Was it the top or the
> bottom of the picnic table as it turned over as your horse fell? Go
> figure. news:<3e40...@snipnews.snip.net>...
X-country does not use jump cups. Once one gets to prelim level
a picnic table is a cake walk.
CMNewell
> X-country does not use jump cups. Once one gets to prelim level
>a picnic table is a cake walk.
>
Yabbut wouldn't a "picnic table" on a cross country course be built
substantially enough that one could bank off rather than put a foot
through it?
Linda Harms
sail...@home.com says...
the riders usually insured when they ride?
More to the point of the topic, do the sponsors of the ride/test/show
(see, I don't even know whatcha callit) carry insurance?
--
Linda Harms
New York, NY
"If the man's heart is in the right place his horse will seldom
fail him; and were we asked to name the one essential without
which it is impossible to attain thorough proficiency in the
saddle, we should not hesitate to say nerve. *Nerve,* I repeat,
in contradistinction to *pluck.* The latter takes us into difficulty,
the former brings us out of it."-- G.J. Whyte-Melville, 1878
Linda Harms
says...
> "Thomas Bloomer" <bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote in message
> news:3e40...@snipnews.snip.net...
> >
> > >They were told not to jump the picnic table,
> > >they did it anyway, and got shut down.
>
> The predictable knee jerk reactions re Parelli always amuse me, especially
> from those who did not witness the event. Aw hell, I coulda been a troll.
> Damn! <g>
Don't give up -- you can stil be a troll. ;-)
>
> > Go read the original post - this time for comprehension. You are ASSuming
> > that they were told. Since it wasn't in writing, it doesn't matter
> anyway.
>
> Equine Affaire in OH is early April. I'll be interested to see what
> transpires and will report it here, if anyone cares to read it.
Yes, please do -- I am planning to go to EA in MA in November, would
like to know what's happening. Although, to be honest, I wouldn't
attend the Parelli stuff for more than a few minutes (just to get a
look-see at the guy) anyway.
Nancy DeMarco
>Yabbut wouldn't a "picnic table" on a cross country course be built
>substantially enough that one could bank off rather than put a foot
>through it?
In a perfect world. But I've ridden courses where they used a plain
old picnic table, complete with a flapping tablecloth. I remember one
local horse trials that even had place settings.
Nancy DeMarco
CCF
>
> The following is an email that was forwarded to me today. FYI if
> interested. Did anyone witness this?
>
> "During the Savvy Team presentation, Linda did indeed jump her athletic Warmblood, Remmer, over a picnic table.
Was Linda wearing a helmet? Do you think the organizers were concerned
with showing kids that everyone should wear a helmet? When I was an
out-rider at a XC event, I wore a helmet because the organizers asked me
to for just that reason.
Cheryl
John Hasler
> In a perfect world. But I've ridden courses where they used a plain old
> picnic table, complete with a flapping tablecloth.
And I've seen plain old picnic tables one _could_ bank off of.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Texas rider
> "Thomas Bloomer" <bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote in message
> news:3e40...@snipnews.snip.net...
> >
> > >They were told not to jump the picnic table,
> > >they did it anyway, and got shut down.
>
> The predictable knee jerk reactions re Parelli always amuse me, especially
> from those who did not witness the event. Aw hell, I coulda been a troll.
> Damn! <g>
>
apparently this topic was discussed by the management prior to the
event. For whatever reason (probably something having to do with
lawsuits and insurance) they were asked not to do this. Linda P. did
it anyway, and it pissed the show organizers off, so they shut down
the show.
What do you expect to happen? They obviously asked them this for a
reason even if we don't know what the reason was, or the Parellis
happened to think it wasn't relevant. They didn't play by the
organizers' rules and that was all there was to it. It is unimportant
that they were the celebrities who were asked to be there. They
brought on the reaction themselves. They would not have been shut down
if she hadn't have done it.
Rules and laws are designed for everyone, not just "non-celebrities".
If you don't follow them in this society, you often to get into
trouble. Think about O.J. Simpson, Richard Nixon, Gary Hart, Winoma
Rider, and countless others who ruined or damaged their careers with
this line of thinking.
I'd drop this if I were you and concentrate on other issues.
Texas rider
> Now, if the Parelli's were jumping manure spreaders or snowplows or Hummers,
> you would have a point. But picnic tables? Not a big deal...
>
> madeline
I don't see it that the point is what they jumped, it was that the EA
people had specifically asked them not to, for whatever reason. FWIW
the people that are usually wildly impressed with Parelli's method are
not usually the types that are comfortable schooling XC fences. They
are usually adult beginners. It may not impress you if you've spent a
lot of time eventing, but it would seem very daring to their
clientele. Tamara's right. You can't make the assumption someone
watching her do this would have any understanding what it takes to
train a horse to jump or ride well enough to be able to jump a picnic
table, and someone could get hurt and sue EA. Beginner riders have an
amazing lack of understanding of what it takes to train or ride a
horse or what could happen if something went wrong. If she makes it
look very easy, it makes the situation worse.
Madeline Rockwell
"Texas rider" <gros...@bga.com> wrote in message
news:f2f1851.03020...@posting.google.com...
> "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote in message
news:<b1rsj4$qkl$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...
> > "Thomas Bloomer" <bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e40...@snipnews.snip.net...
> > >
> > > >They were told not to jump the picnic table,
> > > >they did it anyway, and got shut down.
> >
> > The predictable knee jerk reactions re Parelli always amuse me,
especially
> > from those who did not witness the event. Aw hell, I coulda been a
troll.
> > Damn! <g>
> >
> Look, you didn't say what was discussed in their meetings, but
> apparently this topic was discussed by the management prior to the
> event. For whatever reason (probably something having to do with
> lawsuits and insurance) they were asked not to do this. Linda P. did
> it anyway, and it pissed the show organizers off, so they shut down
> the show.
I haven't seen a Parelli demonstration, but there were some O'Connor,
Phillip Dutton, and Ann Kurzinski demonstrations at Equine Affaire in Mass.
that, I guarantee, were MUCH more risky, heart-stopping and just plain
terrifying than a schooled horse ridden by a pro jumping a picnic table. I
really think the liability/insurance issue is a non-starter. Sounds like a
power play to me.
madeline
Cindi
> well good for Equine Affair! such stupidity as jumping picnic
> tables and other non sense belong in the circus where it is
> understood to be a big show... not to a crowd of un in formed wanne
> be horse trainers who have not enough collective sense not to
> try it...and what had happend to
> Equine Affair when some horse crazed 13 year old girl gets
> smashed to hell trying to jump a table the next weekend ?? by
> allowing it to continue they support and condone it and would
> probably get sued right along with Pat...shame on the Parelli
> group and well done Equine Affair
What if some crazed 13 year old gets herself a green horse and
tries to get it saddled, bridled and ridden in 45 minutes? What
if she puts on a bunch of chain mail and gets on a Fresian?
What if she tries to do some team penning? What if she tries to
do some vaulting? What if she tries to drive a little cart? What
if she tries to ride a drill pattern on an Icelandic she's never
met before? What if she tries to ride bridle-less? Chasing a
big red ball, even?
These are all things I've seen done at the Horse Expo... Every single
one is dangerous without proper prior training. It's not just Pat
Parelli et al; it's every single exhibitor. And heck, it's not
just horses -- it's anything... Olympics, pro sports, movies...
Do you worry that some crazed 13 year old will watch the pole
vaulting in the Olympics and rush out and try it and hurt herself?
Or is this post maybe just showing a Parelli bias?
cindi
Thomas Bloomer
>watching her do this would have any understanding what it takes to
>train a horse to jump or ride well enough to be able to jump a picnic
>table, and someone could get hurt and sue EA. Beginner riders have an
>amazing lack of understanding of what it takes to train or ride a
>horse or what could happen if something went wrong. If she makes it
>look very easy, it makes the situation worse.
Well damn then we should just shut down every rodeo in the world and stop
televising the Olympics . . . ROTFLMAO!
Rosie
dangers. I don't know what the stats are relative to other equine
disciplines, but certainly, most horsemen have heard of plenty of
horse injuries, rider injuries & some deaths on XC courses. Can't
remember ever hearing of a fatality on a trail course or reining
pattern.
Tamara Howard
> CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET (Tamara Howard) wrote
>
> > well good for Equine Affair! such stupidity as jumping picnic
> > tables and other non sense belong in the circus where it is
> > understood to be a big show... not to a crowd of un in formed wanne
> > be horse trainers who have not enough collective sense not to
> > try it...
>
>
> tries to get it saddled, bridled and ridden in 45 minutes?
I left part of my post in because you seemed to have missed
it...Parelli has a big circus act going all the while having the
faithful chant "lead us into the light...only Pat knows the
way...only Pat knows the way..."
no one watches the Fresians in chain mail and thinks.."let's
wrap ourself in a chain link fence and run around poking sticks
at each other..because they SAID to do it this way"...
that and they told him not to and he said basically "screw you
I'm the incredible Pat and I'll do as I please"...if you lived
a little farther out in the real world you'd understand that IF
an insurance company tells you not to do something and you do it
anyway you are toast...period...own some big tractor trailers or
your own house or perhaps have some employees and you might
understand the seriousness of what they did...and it's possible
effect on Equine Affair...
?
> Or is this post maybe just showing a Parelli bias?
on my website there is long list of things I will not do for
money where horeses are involved..."natural horsemanship" tops the
list with voodoo ceremonies and dancing naked at midnight under a
full moon comes a close second...(of course the hunt ball is on the
22nd and we're going to that so ya never know about
dancing?)<G>
it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
ever in his horse carrer but hold the hands of a buncha horse
frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
horseman"...
Tamara in TN
danh
news:f2f1851.03020...@posting.google.com...
[...]
> I'd drop this if I were you and concentrate on other issues.
Thanks for your kind suggestion, but I'll continue to do as I please. I
haven't told anyone what to think on the subject. I wasn't there. You
weren't there. Neither of us know what happened. I don't have much of an
opinion but I have an interest in the facts, which I've asked for. Your
seem to have an abundance of opinion and little interest in the facts. Do
whatever you want. I will to.
Callen Molenda
>
> <BIG OLE SNIP>
> on my website there is long list of things I will not do for
> money where horeses are involved..."natural horsemanship" tops the
> list with voodoo ceremonies and dancing naked at midnight under a
> full moon comes a close second...(of course the hunt ball is on the
> 22nd and we're going to that so ya never know about
> dancing?)<G>
>
> it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
> ever in his horse carrer but hold the hands of a buncha horse
> frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
> Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
> horseman"...
>
> Tamara in TN
Tamara, you are my hero!!!
danh
[...]
if you lived
> a little farther out in the real world
[...]
> it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
> ever in his horse carrer
Maybe you should learn a bit more before publically embarrassing yourself
with remarks so patently untrue. I'm not a devotee of anyone or anything.
I am a sponge who will readily learn from anyone who has anything sensible
to say and has demonstrated they can walk the talk. PR rhetoric is as
credible from a critic as from the PR person, particularly when the spout of
opinion doesn't come from direct observation, but from a soapbox.
And since I'm in a particularly snotty mood today...farther out in the real
world, "errks" doesn't exist.
[...]
Bill Kambic
> "Tamara Howard" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
> news:4cb43db8.0302...@posting.google.com...
>
> [...]
>
> if you lived
> > a little farther out in the real world
>
> [...]
>
> > it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
> > ever in his horse carrer
>
> Maybe you should learn a bit more before publically embarrassing yourself
> with remarks so patently untrue.
Dan, precisely what awards or accomplishments as a horseman (not as a
teacher/presenter/showman) has Mr. Parelli earned?
I'm not a devotee of anyone or anything.
> I am a sponge who will readily learn from anyone who has anything sensible
> to say and has demonstrated they can walk the talk. PR rhetoric is as
> credible from a critic as from the PR person, particularly when the spout
of
> opinion doesn't come from direct observation, but from a soapbox.
You assume much, here. One of the great things about being a human is that
we can learn the value of things we have never seen in person through the
magic of books, videotapes, etc.
Or, put another way, I can give you lots of detail about the Battle of
Midway and its major participants even though it occured almost four years
before I was born.
> And since I'm in a particularly snotty mood today...farther out in the
real
> world, "errks" doesn't exist.
Well, get some Kleenex and I'm sure you will be OK!<g>
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
Ken Brown
CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET (Tamara Howard) posted some stuff that looked like
this:
> ever in his horse carrer but hold the hands of a buncha horse
> frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
> Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
> horseman"...
OMG! I love it!! May I cite you??
------------------------
"Put two hundred miles on
your horse, then come back
and see me."
- attributed to Buster Welch
Ken Brown
> ... Do whatever you want. I will to.
KERCHEW! Just because you are in a snotty mood, that is "I will, too" and
not "I will to."
<wink>
Kiss and make up now? Smoochies!
Fran
Come on Tamara, tell us what you "really" think!!! Don't hold back now!
LOL!
Fran
Paula Jantunen
Insurance seems to be discussed a lot in this thread but the original post
doesn't say anything about there having been any insurance issues, just
that the organizers of EA disapproved with some things in the Parelli
show and didn't want them included in the EA show. Have I missed something
or *was* this really about insurance?
As such the things EA requested Parelli's bunch not to include in the
show seem pretty random and insignificant. However, it is their right to
make such requests for whatever reason, and the Parelli people would have
been smart to act accordingly. Quite possibly requests/information/decisions
weren't communicated properly in one direction or another, though.
I kinda agree with Cindi. While there are cases people have to accept some
responsibility for others taking their example, things get impossible if no
one (or their parents!) can be expected to have any common sense at all.
That said, I saw Parelli's Italian staff doing their thing at an Italian
western show last summer and while they did all sorts of fun and
showy tricks, I had problems both seeing the point - from the normal,
practical everyday horse-handling view - and with the "come worship the god
and founder of the only true horsemanship" attitude. If they just marketed
their show as the equine circus it seems to have developed into, it would be
quite all right.
--
Paula Jantunen * paujantu at cc dot joensuu dot fi * Piacenza * Italy
* "But like, MAN, Gandalf is SUCH a ripoff of Obi-Wan Kenobi, *
* it's not funny..." - Dork Tower, Jan 2002 *
* * * http://cc.joensuu.fi/~paujantu/ Remove gotcha to reply * * * *
danh
news:3e428d4b$1...@news.vic.com...
> "danh" wrote in message
> > "Tamara Howard" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
> > news:4cb43db8.0302...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > if you lived
> > > a little farther out in the real world
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
> > > ever in his horse carrer
> >
> > Maybe you should learn a bit more before publically embarrassing
yourself
> > with remarks so patently untrue.
>
> Dan, precisely what awards or accomplishments as a horseman (not as a
> teacher/presenter/showman) has Mr. Parelli earned?
As I said, I'm not a devotee, but am aware of several things, and have see
him ride and handle horses, so I can judge for myself his competence in that
area, as can anyone who actually sees him ride/handle them. IIRC, he was a
pretty fair bareback bronc rider. Might have been rookie of the year back
ca. 1970. He was one of the founders of the Am. Mule Assn. He spent about
20 years toughing it out as a trainer. He trained at least one Tevis winner
('97, IIRC). I thought Tamara's characterization of him as "a man who has
never done anything ever in his horse carrer" was over the top and only
demonstrated her bias, as such unqualified declarations often do - it only
takes a single accomplishment to invalidate her statement. Also, teaching
horse skills *is* an accomplishment within a horse career. I've read some
other info wrt his success with cutting horses, but don't recall the detail.
> I'm not a devotee of anyone or anything.
> > I am a sponge who will readily learn from anyone who has anything
sensible
> > to say and has demonstrated they can walk the talk. PR rhetoric is as
> > credible from a critic as from the PR person, particularly when the
spout
> of
> > opinion doesn't come from direct observation, but from a soapbox.
>
> You assume much, here. One of the great things about being a human is
that
> we can learn the value of things we have never seen in person through the
> magic of books, videotapes, etc.
>
> Or, put another way, I can give you lots of detail about the Battle of
> Midway and its major participants even though it occured almost four years
> before I was born.
Okay, that's correct, as far as it goes. That said, we still haven't heard
from anyone who witnessed the event at issue, so all we have is a PR release
and opinions from those whose opinions were formed well before this arose.
Watching film of the Battle of Midway isn't the same as having been there.
No matter how detailed the information might be, it just isn't the same as
being on deck with explosions and heavy guns going off constantly, smelling
the cordite, the heat of fires, feeling the rolling of the ships, the
shuddering when hit, hearing men yelling orders or screaming in pain or
observing the sheer determination of the combatants, faces blackened and
bloody. I'm unapologetically more interested in factual commentary than
biased opinions.
> > And since I'm in a particularly snotty mood today...farther out in the
> real
> > world, "errks" doesn't exist.
>
> Well, get some Kleenex and I'm sure you will be OK!<g>
Thanks - I feel much better now. <g>
danh
news:Xns931A7990D343kr...@198.252.58.3...
> "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> posted some stuff that looked like this:
>
> > ... Do whatever you want. I will to.
>
> KERCHEW! Just because you are in a snotty mood, that is "I will, too" and
> not "I will to."
Touche. Or would that be twoshay?
> <wink>
>
> Kiss and make up now? Smoochies!
Without tongue please. <g>
CMSQ...@webtv.net
When are you planning to attend, or will you be there for the whole
time? We're planning to go, just not sure which day/days.
Candy
Thomas Bloomer
>ever in his horse carrer but hold the hands of a buncha horse
>frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
>Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
>horseman"...
Of which man are you speaking? Certainly not Pat Parelli - he has a pretty
serious record as a rodeo cowboy. So just what can YOU do that's friggin
amazing anyway?
danh
news:4547-3E4...@storefull-2277.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> "danh" wrote: "Equine Affaire in OH is early April"
>
> When are you planning to attend, or will you be there for the whole
> time? We're planning to go, just not sure which day/days.
I'm planning to go all 4 days. Last year, I only went 2 days and felt like
I missed stuff I wish I hadn't. It's only a 1+ hour commute to Columbus.
Let me know when you're going and we can meet up.
Jody Z. Miller
>
> That said, I saw Parelli's Italian staff doing their thing at an Italian
> western show last summer and while they did all sorts of fun and
> showy tricks, I had problems both seeing the point - from the normal,
> practical everyday horse-handling view - and with the "come worship the god
> and founder of the only true horsemanship" attitude. If they just marketed
> their show as the equine circus it seems to have developed into, it would be
> quite all right.
That my dear is the whole point! Showing off so you can look mightier than
you really are. I mean how many of you want to actually jump over a picnic
table for God's sake? There are far more interesting ways to jump many more
interesting things, it's a gimmick. It's a "look at me!".
I sure wish all his postulants would take a long walk on a short pier. Nut
cases.
Jody
"The problem with being enlightened is that you see everything differently"
Jody Z. Miller
And what pray tell do you do so well that makes you an authority on
horsemanship and M. Parelli? Don't start throwing stones till you have at
least dug your own bunker.
As much as I kinda twisted a gut laughing at Tamara's long sentence, I can
also say I find the
"gee-I-just-got-a-horse-I-can-be-friends-with-it-type-with-hay-in-their-ears
-from-living-in-the-sticks" at these displays of fantasy also. It takes
many kinds, but most of all it takes green-green-greenies to be sucked into
the pomp and circumstance of the Equine Affaire shows of *education*. Long
ago, I knew many of the things they try to teach, and to be more afraid of
the people who go there looking for divine intervention. Afraid? Yes,
because those people actually own animals and need more help than this one
hour seminar is ever going to give them. They need daily one on one help
from a person who has been there and done that a thousand times. No matter
who the Guru they want to make taking care of horses and training them as
TOO simple, TOO easy, and THEIR OWN TRUE WAY.
Sorry, Pat lovers, it stinks, the money he rakes in stinks, the whole
seminar/clinic shit stinks to high heaven; and the merchandising is more
insulting than one would ever imagine. I need a flag on a stick?
LOL...yeah, sure I do. What idiot buys this stuff? Only a born again Pat
Sucker.
Gotta love free enterprise, it does bring out the worst of the worst.
Jody
"Contentment that derives from knowing when to be content is eternal
contentment." ~Lao Tzu~
Ken Brown
this:
> Of which man are you speaking? Certainly not Pat Parelli - he has a
> pretty serious record as a rodeo cowboy. So just what can YOU do
> that's friggin amazing anyway?
Run a farm without having to "hold the hands of a buncha horse frightened
middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky Harlequin romance
cowboy fantasy" to make a buck.
I just love the image ... it cracks me up. And makes me want to start
wearing a cowboy hat. <snort>
Ken Brown
>> Kiss and make up now? Smoochies!
>
> Without tongue please. <g>
I'll lick the phone next time we speak. You imagine it from there, cowboy.
Ken Brown
like this:
> than you really are. I mean how many of you want to actually jump over
> a picnic table for God's sake? There are far more interesting ways to
It *could* be a handy skill to have when at the local park. You're more
likely to meet a picnic table obstacle than a jump course obstacle anyway.
For the rest of us, we simply walk around the obstacles - easier on and
better for the horse, you know.
> "The problem with being enlightened is that you see everything
> differently"
Yes. That's what the PP folks say and think.
Tralrdr
>frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
>Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
>horseman"...
>
> Tamara in TN
Awww c'mon, Tamara, tell us how you REALLY feel! ah ha ha ha
and are you sure about that not dancing nekkid in the moonlight stuff? Thats
not too far fetched..........heh
after a jug of some good whiskey or something of course, liquid courage, and in
the middle of nowhere like HERE but thats NOT an invite.
carrie n miller
Sigen 3
>>
>> Without tongue please. <g>
>
>I'll lick the phone next time we speak. You imagine it from there, cowboy.
>
LMAO... er I mean, Ewwww! That's just wrong <G>
CM
Tamara Howard
>
>
> Maybe you should learn a bit more before publically embarrassing yourself
> with remarks so patently untrue.
didn't Ken say you were an apologist for the man...? ain't that
like a devotee but without the flowery robe and tambourine?
please then inform me on what he's won and where..who much
NCHA monaey has he gotten.what
national championships he's accomplished...what notable breed
sires he's bred...when did a horse he trained last win
Badmition...the Rolex...Gladstone...who was the last Olympic Gold
Medal horse he himself
trained...
I'm sure the list is pretty long...take your time..
best
Tamara in TN
Thomas Bloomer
>horsemanship and M. Parelli? Don't start throwing stones till you have at
>least dug your own bunker.
I have personally benefitted from studying and applying a lot of the
techniques and philosophies taught by Parelli. The point that is missed by
most folks is that he talks about spending hundreds of hours with a horse.
The problem with the wannabees (horse freightened middle aged) is that they
go to the seminar, buy a rope halter and a carrot stick, and never actually
put the system to use. Pat designed a system that even a moron could
follow. The problem is that most morons are lazy, and they don't actually
follow it. Maybe the Parelli stuff works for me because I have taken the
time to put it to use. As a professional farrier, it makes my job a lot
easier because I have a better understanding of horse behavior. As someone
who competes in local horse shows, and raises horses, (but did not grow up
with horses, and I have no natural ability with animals), I have gotten
farther by studying and applying his philosophies. However I also have had
some luck with John Lyons techniques as well as some things I learned while
taking lessons from 4 different trainers.
>"gee-I-just-got-a-horse-I-can-be-friends-with-it-type-with-hay-in-their-ear
s
>-from-living-in-the-sticks" at these displays of fantasy also. It takes
>many kinds, but most of all it takes green-green-greenies to be sucked into
>the pomp and circumstance of the Equine Affaire shows of *education*.
Gee I thought it was about marketing - it is a "Trade Show," not a clinic.
The demonstration is not intended to educate, it is intended to attract
customers. If you want to be educated, you go to an actual training clinic
. . . don't confuse advertising with education. Learning requires work (or
play as Parelli calls it).
>Long ago, I knew many of the things they try to teach, and to be more
afraid of
>the people who go there looking for divine intervention. Afraid? Yes,
>because those people actually own animals and need more help than this one
>hour seminar is ever going to give them. They need daily one on one help
>from a person who has been there and done that a thousand times. No matter
>who the Guru they want to make taking care of horses and training them as
>TOO simple, TOO easy, and THEIR OWN TRUE WAY.
Kindly refer back to the part about spending huindreds of hours with your
horse. If you actually read his philosophy and you actually "get it" he
places a *lot* of emphasis on practice and preparation. Unfortunately, very
few in the fan club actually bother to put in the time.
>Sorry, Pat lovers, it stinks, the money he rakes in stinks, the whole
>seminar/clinic shit stinks to high heaven; and the merchandising is more
>insulting than one would ever imagine. I need a flag on a stick?
>LOL...yeah, sure I do. What idiot buys this stuff? Only a born again Pat
>Sucker.
Well yes, especially when you can just go break a branch off of a tree and
use a piece of plastic bag for a flag. I had the local harness shop make me
a bareback pad identical to the one Parelli sells - but for $250 less.
Since doing all of my arena work in the bareback pad last year my seat has
improved dramatically - so have my placings in horse shows.
>Gotta love free enterprise, it does bring out the worst of the worst.
Spoken like a true communist.
Bethe57
>it errks me to no end that a man who has never done anything
>ever in his horse carrer but hold the hands of a buncha horse
>frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some freaky
>Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy can somehow be a "great
>horseman"...
Go Tamera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He came here to do a demo and I got my money's worth (it was free). :-) I
loved his dogs better than the horse demo......they were so well trained and so
eager to please. Horses were lovely, so well turned out, simply stunning, but
as far as the rest of it, well, let's just say I wasted a bit of time when I
coulda been riding my own horses! :-)
Bethe Blasienz
Bryan, Texas
CMNewell
>... He trained at least one Tevis winner
>('97, IIRC).
A bit more tenuous than "training a Tevis winner", I'd say.
He started the horse under saddle 14 years previously.
It was the 1998 winner, Fille de Cailana ridden by Potato
Richardson.
CMNewell, DVM
The Chuck of Eq
self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"You can be perverse, a horse cannot." --TvG
danh
> "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote in message news:<b1u030
> >
> > Maybe you should learn a bit more before publically embarrassing
yourself
> > with remarks so patently untrue.
>
> didn't Ken say you were an apologist for the man...? ain't that
> like a devotee but without the flowery robe and tambourine?
So you believe everything Ken says? Isn't that like a devotee? Got a
flowery robe and tambourine? <g>
> please then inform me on what he's won and where..who much
> NCHA monaey has he gotten.what
> national championships he's accomplished...what notable breed
> sires he's bred...when did a horse he trained last win
> Badmition...the Rolex...Gladstone...who was the last Olympic Gold
> Medal horse he himself
> trained...
I posted everything I knew already - see my response to Bill.
> I'm sure the list is pretty long...take your time..
>
> best
> Tamara in TN
Tamara, you made a false statement - to wit: "a man who has never done
anything ever in his horse carrer". I don't care what opinions, informed
or silly you have, but when you make such a broad statement like that,
you've earned the criticism.
Further, even if PP had never done anything of merit, teaching people to
handle horses doesn't seem to me to make him the target you think he is.
Lots of people do that, and do it poorly. I'm not really sure what the
objection is, aside from his showmanship, which if that's all you see,
you're only seeing the part of the picture that you want to see - it's
marketing while the actual skill development takes place without the
showmanship. Everyone has to learn how to handle horses, it isn't innate.
That some people have learned for more years just means they have had more
opportunity and hopefully, developed more skill, not that those who are just
learning are somehow lesser or inept humans. I've never heard or read him
to say that skill with horses can be achieved without time and effort.
IIRC, he talks about skill development in terms of years - like 5-7 years to
reach his level 3, which is pretty basic stuff. Anyone who spends years
advancing their horsemanship can be described as dedicated, better than as
a. "buncha horse frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some
freaky Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy". (Though I did like your turn of
phrase. <g>)
danh
news:98i54v40b1igr3g2p...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:41:24 -0500, "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
> >... He trained at least one Tevis winner
> >('97, IIRC).
>
> A bit more tenuous than "training a Tevis winner", I'd say.
> He started the horse under saddle 14 years previously.
> It was the 1998 winner, Fille de Cailana ridden by Potato
> Richardson.
You're correct - I miswrote that. Which is more significant - starting a
horse that subsequently has a successful career, or conditioning it after
it's started?
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
> > Dan, precisely what awards or accomplishments as a horseman (not as a
> > teacher/presenter/showman) has Mr. Parelli earned?
>
> As I said, I'm not a devotee, but am aware of several things, and have see
> him ride and handle horses, so I can judge for myself his competence in
that
> area, as can anyone who actually sees him ride/handle them. IIRC, he was
a
> pretty fair bareback bronc rider. Might have been rookie of the year back
> ca. 1970. He was one of the founders of the Am. Mule Assn. He spent
about
> 20 years toughing it out as a trainer. He trained at least one Tevis
winner
> ('97, IIRC). I thought Tamara's characterization of him as "a man who
has
> never done anything ever in his horse carrer" was over the top and
only
> demonstrated her bias, as such unqualified declarations often do - it only
> takes a single accomplishment to invalidate her statement. Also, teaching
> horse skills *is* an accomplishment within a horse career. I've read some
> other info wrt his success with cutting horses, but don't recall the
detail.
IOW, he was pretty much a "bust out" trying to make a living as a
trainer!<g>
I did a "guru background search" a while back and the only thing I could
find was that he scored a reserve with a mule at something back in the early
'80s.
Yes, Tamara can go "over the top" but, when faced with the "Parelli
Publicity Machine" it might be justified!<g> But, of course, you already
knew that!<g>
> > I'm not a devotee of anyone or anything.
> > > I am a sponge who will readily learn from anyone who has anything
> sensible
> > > to say and has demonstrated they can walk the talk. PR rhetoric is as
> > > credible from a critic as from the PR person, particularly when the
> spout
> > of
> > > opinion doesn't come from direct observation, but from a soapbox.
> >
> > You assume much, here. One of the great things about being a human is
> that
> > we can learn the value of things we have never seen in person through
the
> > magic of books, videotapes, etc.
> >
> > Or, put another way, I can give you lots of detail about the Battle of
> > Midway and its major participants even though it occured almost four
years
> > before I was born.
>
> Okay, that's correct, as far as it goes. That said, we still haven't
heard
> from anyone who witnessed the event at issue, so all we have is a PR
release
> and opinions from those whose opinions were formed well before this arose.
Yes, YOU forwarded to the list an item forwarded to YOU by a Parelli
insider. Frankly, this does some damage to the credibility of your
statement that you are not a "devotee." If you were not, why bother to
bring up a subject that had not been broached by anyone else?
> Watching film of the Battle of Midway isn't the same as having been there.
> No matter how detailed the information might be, it just isn't the same as
> being on deck with explosions and heavy guns going off constantly,
smelling
> the cordite, the heat of fires, feeling the rolling of the ships, the
> shuddering when hit, hearing men yelling orders or screaming in pain or
> observing the sheer determination of the combatants, faces blackened and
> bloody.
My knowledge goes WAY beyond Hollywood.
I'm unapologetically more interested in factual commentary than
> biased opinions.
Given that you started the thread and had no facts to go on (by your the
rules that you seem to want to use) I'm not sure why you object to
speculation. You did not ask if anyone else was there. You did not seek to
be directed to somebody who was there. You just posted the Parelli defense.
If none of us were there and you wern't there and you didn't try to find
anybody who was there then what's the point?
Bill Kambic
news:3e42...@snipnews.snip.net...
Care to post that record?
CMNewell
In the case of the Tevis Cup, I'd have to say it's the conditioning.
In the case of a stakes race, I'd have to say it's the guy whose
shedrow the horse is in.
In the case of a top dressage horse, I'd have to say it's the trainer
who brought the horse along.
And so forth.
You might contact Potato and ask him whether he thinks PP deserves
the credit or he does himself.
Correct basics ought to be the default setting.
Hell, if starting them made one the "trainer", I could probably claim
a couple or three winners at the track.
Yes, I know you can mess a horse up bigtime by starting it wrong.
Ken Brown
this:
> missed by most folks is that he talks about spending hundreds of hours
> with a horse.
Common knowledge and good teaching practice in general. See sig.
> Pat designed a system
> that even a moron could follow.
He didn't design squat. He has made a few buzz words from common tools and
practices, added a few tricks and called it a "system" that he markets for
high dollars.
> Maybe the Parelli stuff works
> for me because I have taken the time to put it to use.
Good time spent is good time spent. Period. It doesn't matter if it is
buzz word oriented or just the same old same old for the past 100 years.
<snip>
As to success with one and not the other guru, I reckon PP's way of stating
or explaining things appeals to you. Good. But hardly the be-all end-all
of proper methods or horsemanship. Think "perspective".
> attract customers. If you want to be educated, you go to an actual
> training clinic . . . don't confuse advertising with education.
Remember what you just wrote. Then apply it.
> Well yes, especially when you can just go break a branch off of a tree
> and use a piece of plastic bag for a flag.
Older than dirt method. Broken whips and a pice of rag work great.
> I had the local harness
> shop make me a bareback pad identical to the one Parelli sells - but
> for $250 less.
So much for being genuinely interested in passing along your own methods to
the omst amount of people. Why not charge a hefty premium for a name?
What matters more - the method or the profit?
Reminds me .. some kid at a local barn was so thrilled she got to go see PP
and can right back to put stuff into practice. What a waste of time for
her. I spent 30 minutes teaching her how a horse moves and how to get the
horse to break a little at the poll and how LIGHT she could use aids to get
a response - horse and kid did great. And I didn't charge a dime.
And that kid? She spent cash getting a stick and other crap not needed -
and the money spent on that won't be spent on lessons because her family
isn't exactly well off. So I am going down every week to spend an hour
with the kid to give her ideas on what she can do to improve her horse's
performance and how to learn to ride better herself. No charge... I hope
that many folks are willing to pass on the things they have learned and
just help make better horsemanship more prevalent.
Oh yeah.. the kid spent 2 days with the PP method and had NO CLUE about
teaching a horse to give to pressure or how a bit works on a horse's mouth.
She was yanking and jamming until I showed her how to get the horse to do
more with far, far less. And how the bit works with the mouth, etc. All
she wanted to do was go play "games" that were fun, not realizing this
underfed 1000 pound beast was going to wake up and kick her little ass if
she didn't have some degree of respect and control.
That's the problem with PP stuff - too much focus on crap and not enough
focus on the basics. It is geared on extending your basic training into
forever to snatch as much cash as possible. Tsk tsk. Reminds me of
dressage LOL.
> last year my seat has improved dramatically - so have my placings in
That's called "saddle time". Amazing how it makes a difference, isn't it?
The more you ride applying the basics of riding properly and you get better
at riding. Duh. The more you shoe applying proper basic principles, the
better you get at farrier work. Huh. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Why ascribe any of it to a person or some "special" method? And then exalt
the weenie?
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, and the best I have seen doesn't
come with slick marketing crap designed to attract the uneducated.
Tamara Howard
> I just reread the original post. A couple of points, FWIW.
>
> Insurance seems to be discussed a lot in this thread but the original post
> doesn't say anything about there having been any insurance issues, just
> that the organizers of EA disapproved with some things in the Parelli
> show and didn't want them included in the EA show. Have I missed something
> or *was* this really about insurance?
I received a nice email from the OH office a lady named
Andrea...and she says they were concerned for the safety of the
Parelli riders and horses...she did not mention insurance to
me..but lack of safety generally equals the "reckless" clause in
lotsa policies...and can get it yanked...Ken and Bill would know
the specifics about that
Tamara in TN
Tamara Howard
> Well damn then we should just shut down every rodeo in the world and stop
> televising the Olympics . . . ROTFLMAO!
actally the voilence and danger apparent in a rodeo is very up
front and "on the cover" as it were...everyone has a chance to see
El Toro really chop up Senor Vaquero...and sometimes it happens as
expected
the Olympics are not held up as a "training manual" and it is
repeated constantly the time it takes to train and condition the
horses...
now then we have Pat whose well rehearsed and choreographed show
just flows like some kinda magic to the beginner...then he says
"you don't need to <insert>.....to be a good horseman...just to
what I do...you can do it...just do what I do" and the danger
potential is never mentioned or measured but hidden below the
surface...does he once say "don't try this at home beginner" or is
it more like "look at the magic we can do??"
do you really see no difference ?
Tamara in TN
Terry von Gease
That would very much depend on just what it might take to amaze you. From
your paeans to Parelli one might think that merely teaching a horse how to
be a horse would do the trick for you. That's all that Parelli and his squad
of acolytes ever does. And not all that well at that.
One swallow does not a spring make but we recall some years back hopping on
a horse that was presented as being trained in the finest Parelli tradition
by tithing disciples of his lordship himself and touted as having graduated
with honors from the holy catechism. This piece of dog food was a typical
ill trained dead sided iron mouthed lead frontended specimen that wasn't
worth the price of the can in which is should have resided. Subsequently
there have been others. All the same.
When we were regular shoppers for stick and ball horses we wouldn't bother
to look at anything that was ever shown at Western pleasure or anything that
was allegedly trained by the methods of Parelli/Lyons/ or whatever the
messiah du jure might be. Perhaps we might have passed up a prospect or two,
but we avoided having to deal with vast herds of dog food.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
Julia Green
"Rosie" <Ro...@stockhorse.com> wrote in message
news:65565a48.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Why don't you ask Christopher Reeve about cross country (CX) course
> dangers. I don't know what the stats are relative to other equine
> disciplines, but certainly, most horsemen have heard of plenty of
> horse injuries, rider injuries & some deaths on XC courses. Can't
> remember ever hearing of a fatality on a trail course or reining
> pattern.
I thought Reeve's accident happened during the stadium phase of an event?
Ken Brown
this:
>
IIRC, it did. Rosie is another one of those "I am a bad-ass rider because
I do XC stuff". For the most part, horse accidents are rider related, not
discipline related. Some disciplines are more likely to expose a rider to
obstacles that can Crush A Skull, but even Wendy Western Pleasure rider can
get tossed into the local fence post if her horse spooks.
Overall, the faster you go the more likely you are to be injured if you
fall. Does it count I saw a woman in a reining pen get tossed into the 6'
pipe rail fence when Flicka didn't want to stop and kept right on going,
slamming on the brakes a few feet in front of the fence and launching Rita
Reiner into broken ribs, concussion and Real Lucky Nothing Else? Shrug.
Pilot error - she should have circled Bad Boy around and made him run until
he damn near dropped. I bet he wouldn't want to pull that shit again any
time soon. She panicked, she got tossed. C'est le cheval.
Diamond Hill Farm
<snip-a-roony>
>
>So you believe everything Ken says?
Mostly.
> Isn't that like a devotee?
Okie dokie
>Got a
>flowery robe and tambourine? <g>
Nah. I'm just a Novice. Haven't taken the Final Vows yet. Don't have a
tambourine, just a fistfull of marigolds.
Those folks could have told PP to do his demo in a Santa suit, if that
turned their crank. If he didn't, they still coulda booted him. It's
their show, their rules. Jumping a picnic table in front of an
audience of everything from "real" trainers to nutty kids is not too
far from "Jackass". Where was the disclaimer? "Kids, don't try this at
home with little snookims". Insurance agents may take all the fun out
of life, but they have the cards. No pay, no play.
Gretchen
Thomas Bloomer
<stuff deleted>
>Why ascribe any of it to a person or some "special" method? And then exalt
>the weenie?
You are the one doing the ascribing. Parelli takes no credit for inventing
anything. If you actually read his book, he states very clearly that he is
just repackaging old tried and true methods into a set of steps that are
easy to follow. OTOH I have taken lessons from some top trainers - guys that
are national judges at QH and Paint world show, and been doing it for 30
years. I learned more about horsemanship by reading a few chapters in the
Parelli partnership book than I did spending $350 on riding lessons with a
those guys.
That said, however, I am NOT a follower of the natural horse-man-ship cult.
I think the entire "natural" movement is all marketing hype. It was just
very convenient to have some material that lays out the horse psychology and
behavior in such a systematic way. Parelli has a communication gift that
many trainers seem to lack. For me he laid out the fundamental concepts
very clearly and systematically. As for the tools, exercises and "Games" .
. . to me they are just ideas that I may or may not use if suited to the
situation. Since I am able to think and reason for myself, I don't have to
follow the Parelli recipie.
>Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, and the best I have seen doesn't
>come with slick marketing crap designed to attract the uneducated.
Well why would he need to attract and teach the educated? He is there for
the have-nots and the uninformed. I know plenty of snotty folks that have
had horses all their lives and think they know everything there is to know
about riding. They have a nasty little click, and anybody that tries to
join it is not welcomed with open arms. I see it all the time because I
married into that world. If anything I was being held back by the closed
minded good ol' boy mentality.
What Parelli has done is condensed the fundamentals of horsemanship into
something an ex-computer geek like me can read and then exploit to my
advantage. I was able to improve and get results IMMEDIATELY, not after
many hours in the saddle, I'm talking about the very next day. What I read
in a few chapters of his book would have taken me 5 years to learn in the
saddle with a trainer saying, "Don't ask questions, just do as I say." In
my opinion that trainer was not a very good "explainer."
Nancy DeMarco
>I thought Reeve's accident happened during the stadium phase of an event?
No, it was a stop at a very ordinary rail fence on the XC portion of
an event in Culpeper, Virginia. His hands got tangled in the horse's
bridle, and he landed head first.
Nancy DeMarco
Thomas Bloomer
>what I do...you can do it...just do what I do" and the danger
>potential is never mentioned or measured but hidden below the
>surface...does he once say "don't try this at home beginner" or is
>it more like "look at the magic we can do??"
> do you really see no difference ?
I get your point. You think that the spectators are sooooo stupid that they
will be inspired to go home kill themselves trying to jump their picnic
tables . . . Parelli's contribution to strengthening the human gene pool
through "natural selection." ROTFLMAO!
Jody Z. Miller
> I have personally benefitted from studying and applying a lot of the
> techniques and philosophies taught by Parelli. The point that is missed by
> most folks is that he talks about spending hundreds of hours with a horse.
> The problem with the wannabees (horse freightened middle aged) is that they
> go to the seminar, buy a rope halter and a carrot stick, and never actually
> put the system to use. Pat designed a system that even a moron could
> follow.
There in lies a plethora of problems. You have just written some of the
reasons why it is so bad to idealize the ramblings of PP and others like
him. Being a moron is bad enough, now you follow blindly till something
works? Anything? "Here, horsy, be my fricking friend, let me hug you."
Whew, glad I never met a trainer, teacher, or rider who felt this way,
trouble is brewing when you look at the horse as your furry friend. He may
be a companion, but someone should be in charge, and people are better
trained to do this one on one with seasoned horse instructors, not self
idealized disciples.
>The problem is that most morons are lazy, and they don't actually
> follow it. Maybe the Parelli stuff works for me because I have taken the
> time to put it to use. As a professional farrier, it makes my job a lot
> easier because I have a better understanding of horse behavior. As someone
> who competes in local horse shows, and raises horses, (but did not grow up
> with horses, and I have no natural ability with animals), I have gotten
> farther by studying and applying his philosophies. However I also have had
> some luck with John Lyons techniques as well as some things I learned while
> taking lessons from 4 different trainers.
Self proclaimed as a moron? Bully for you, and realize you are in a large
minority for succeeding. Most of the clinic devotees let the horse fend for
himself till the next big clinic is due and go again__it takes constant
clinics to teach a moron he can't do this alone.
>
>> "gee-I-just-got-a-horse-I-can-be-friends-with-it-type-with-hay-in-their-ear
> s
>> -from-living-in-the-sticks" at these displays of fantasy also. It takes
>> many kinds, but most of all it takes green-green-greenies to be sucked into
>> the pomp and circumstance of the Equine Affaire shows of *education*.
>
> Gee I thought it was about marketing - it is a "Trade Show," not a clinic.
> The demonstration is not intended to educate, it is intended to attract
> customers. If you want to be educated, you go to an actual training clinic
> . . . don't confuse advertising with education. Learning requires work (or
> play as Parelli calls it).
Advertising, eh? The Equine Affaire is billed as an "educational
experience", and I know hordes of people who wait and go for the educational
aspects of the Affaire. Attracting customers is what it is about, huh? Well,
good for you, you do understanding the old bait and switch. It turns my
stomach.
>
> Kindly refer back to the part about spending huindreds of hours with your
> horse. If you actually read his philosophy and you actually "get it" he
> places a *lot* of emphasis on practice and preparation. Unfortunately, very
> few in the fan club actually bother to put in the time.
Well, it's sad to know that even a devotee sees the down side. Alas, maybe
you ought to get out more too, you could have learned all those good things
all at a stable with many good trainers or instructors, and I would guess
for far less money in the long run. Doesn't it cost about $900 to take your
horse to a clinic? Hundreds of hours is exactly what it takes. Let's say a
hundred clinics manages to add up to $9000? Now that is a hunk of change. :(
>
>> Gotta love free enterprise, it does bring out the worst of the worst.
>
> Spoken like a true communist.
If you only knew what sarcasm was. [PS. I'm a democrat. Seems only to piss
off the republicans the last time I looked into pissing one off.]
Jody
Å‚Ask little, ask often, and reward a lotË› ~Beudant
Fran
"Jody Z. Miller" <clayri...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BA686A42.4EFD%clayri...@attbi.com...
> Well, it's sad to know that even a devotee sees the down side. Alas, maybe
> you ought to get out more too, you could have learned all those good
things
> all at a stable with many good trainers or instructors, and I would guess
> for far less money in the long run.
One of my boarders (teenage) is very into the Monty thing. His trainer got
him VIP tickets to the last clinic here. He hasn't been to any John Lyons
or PP clinics but knows of them as well. I don't have any problem with any
of the concepts (not always the methodology) that they promote. (Basically,
make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult for the horse.) I
try not to let the air out of my boarder's balloon. He is so excited about
telling us about it when he returns. He really enjoys going, he assumes he
is learning so much 'new' information! The last time he started with the MR
stuff I just asked point blank if he had really learned anything that he
didn't already know? (Ummm...not really...) What he did learn was
step-by-step putting it into practice. I also like the step-by-step
approach being a methodical, analytical type personality! I subscribe to JL
newsletters and have used and agreed with many of his findings. None of
them are 'new' information however! It's something that I have known all
along from years of working with horses (and making mistakes), but didn't
know how to break it down into steps to understand and grasp the 'why' I
knew it to be so! So I don't totally condemn the NH approach. All those
folks have done is create a step-by-step method for those of us who relate
better to that type of instruction. New information? No! Information
presented in a way we understand? Yes. So if you look at it from that
point of view, it's just another method of learning the same stuff we have
all learned from the start! You just have to realize that it isn't anything
'new'! If they make money doing that, well I don't condemn them for that!
I told my art teacher once on a field trip to the High Museum in Atlanta
that even "I" could have done that ugly sculpture in the front lawn. "Yes,"
she said, "but you didn't think of it." So for the 'idea' of breaking it
down into steps I will give them credit and a little of my money!
Fran
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Come on Tamara, tell us what you "really" think!!! Don't hold back now!
>LOL!
Yeah!
Go for it--fwiw, I pretty much agree with you.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
snip
>Oh yeah.. the kid spent 2 days with the PP method and had NO CLUE about
>teaching a horse to give to pressure or how a bit works on a horse's mouth.
>She was yanking and jamming until I showed her how to get the horse to do
>more with far, far less. And how the bit works with the mouth, etc. All
>she wanted to do was go play "games" that were fun, not realizing this
>underfed 1000 pound beast was going to wake up and kick her little ass if
>she didn't have some degree of respect and control.
<shakes head, sinks face in hands.>
Oh. My. Word. I didn't realize it was this bad...sigh.
jrw
CMSQ...@webtv.net
Will do. Might even be able to drag a couple of other rec.er's along.
:-)
Candy
Tamara Howard
>
> So you believe everything Ken says? Isn't that like a devotee? Got a
> flowery robe and tambourine? <g>
"she played tambourine with a silver jingle...and she must have
known the words to at least a million tunes..."...huhhh? oh sorry
having a musical momenent...I'd figured Ken to be more into old
big white tee shirts ...but we could do the tambourine..I've got
one left I think from the summer solstice party...<g>
Tamara, you made a false statement - to wit: "a man who has never
done
> anything ever in his horse carrer". I don't care what opinions, informed
> or silly you have, but when you make such a broad statement like that,
> you've earned the criticism.
but from your list he hasn't ever done anything
measurable...anywhere...the entire horse world can be measured
and not by ribbons of course...but even in breeding or
management of a nice farm or something...that's all I wanted to
know...what's he done...?
if I wanted to learn about farrier work I'd hang out with a good
farrier and to be a vet I'd go to vet shcool...and to manage a
stud farm I'd go to KY and hire on somewhere...to ride Grand
Prix horses I'd pony up with Katherine Fox and to ride Badmition
I'd go to England and start riding...so what does Pat Parelli
offer ?
>
> Further, even if PP had never done anything of merit, teaching people to
> handle horses doesn't seem to me to make him the target you think he is.
I never made him target...I responded to the post and said well
done Equine Affair...and wrote the same to them...he was told to
do <X> and refused and got called to the table...serves him
right...if he's so dandy why not alter the show "off the cuff"
ad lib as it were?? or was it just not possible??
> Lots of people do that, and do it poorly. I'm not really sure what the
> objection is, aside from his showmanship, which if that's all you see,
> you're only seeing the part of the picture that you want to see
my main problem with him (and it is with the whole NH movement
really) is that there are many many people who never forgot how
to work horses without undue stress and distress...and who worked
hard all their lives doing something measurable..and now because
they refuse to wrap up in the NH mantle and say the buzz words and
buy the stupid gear..lose business and watch horses be ruined by
the local robe wearers...
Anyone who spends years
> advancing their horsemanship can be described as dedicated, better than as
> a. "buncha horse frightened middle aged subdivision women living out some
> freaky Harlequin romance cowboy fantasy". (Though I did like your turn of
> phrase. <g>)
well think about it...if he were a fat.. hairy backed..
twisted leg gargoyle..would he have the same following...? does the
guru fad follow the male lines because they are better horse
people or because women who make up the horse market could not
bring themselves to listen/give money to someone who looked like
Pam Anderson for horse advice?
Tamara in TN
Ken Brown
this:
> promote. (Basically, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing
> difficult for the horse.)
That would be Tom and Bill Dorrance talking. They are now relegated to
Dead Old Guy status. They taught Ray Hunt (rapidly approaching Dead Old
Guy status). From whom the NH crowd snatched more than they care to admit.
Bill's book is pretty good, BTW.
Ken Brown
like this:
>>> Gotta love free enterprise, it does bring out the worst of the worst.
>>
>> Spoken like a true communist.
>
> If you only knew what sarcasm was. [PS. I'm a democrat. Seems only to
> piss off the republicans the last time I looked into pissing one off.]
Democrat .. communist .. what's the difference anyway?
CMSQ...@webtv.net
(CX) course dangers. "
Not to take away from the tragedy of Mr. Reeve and his remarkable
recovery to date, but, he wasn't exactly a top notch accomplished
rider. Mediocre at best. Which may (likely) or may not (you never
know) have had everything or nothing to do with his accident. His
situation is not an accurate representation of the dangers of either cx
or stadium jumping.
Candy
tenwheels
> "danh" wrote in message
[...]
> > Okay, that's correct, as far as it goes. That said, we still haven't
> heard
> > from anyone who witnessed the event at issue, so all we have is a PR
> release
> > and opinions from those whose opinions were formed well before this arose.
>
> Yes, YOU forwarded to the list an item forwarded to YOU by a Parelli
> insider. Frankly, this does some damage to the credibility of your
> statement that you are not a "devotee." If you were not, why bother to
> bring up a subject that had not been broached by anyone else?
Guilt by association? Are you responsible for what others send you
unsolicited? I posted it for anyone who found it interesting. Given
the number of posts that have followed, it seems a subject that some
have found interesting enough to post further on.
[...]
> I'm unapologetically more interested in factual commentary than
> > biased opinions.
>
> Given that you started the thread and had no facts to go on (by your the
> rules that you seem to want to use) I'm not sure why you object to
> speculation. You did not ask if anyone else was there. You did not seek to
> be directed to somebody who was there. You just posted the Parelli defense.
> If none of us were there and you wern't there and you didn't try to find
> anybody who was there then what's the point?
Here is the entirety of the originating post that I wrote:
"The following is an email that was forwarded to me today. FYI if
interested. Did anyone witness this?"
Why didn't you check your facts about what I wrote before you made
your accusations? And in case you still haven't got the point, I
posted the material to find out if anyone else was there who could
give a non-PR version of events. What's followed has been everything
but.
Sigen 3
>recovery to date, but, he wasn't exactly a top notch accomplished
>rider. Mediocre at best. Which may (likely) or may not (you never
>know) have had everything or nothing to do with his accident. His
>situation is not an accurate representation of the dangers of either cx
>or stadium jumping.
>
>Candy
I *could* be wrong, but I believe that was exactly the point. Riding/handling
horses can be very dangerous. You do need to have experience and skill to do
stuff like that (jumping cross country). Someone jumping over a picnic table
is NBD if the person knows what they are doing. However, someone putting on a
show for mainly unskilled/newby horse owners, and implying they can do it too
(without training and experience) is dangerous. If that wasn't the point, I'm
sure someone will be kind enough to correct me :-P
I don't really care one way or the other. I figure if someone is silly enough
to do stuff like that without any training/practice, they're just looking for
an accident anyway. I just hope the horse doesn't get hurt.
CM
Texas rider
> power play to me.
>
> madeline
Could have been. We weren't there, so don't know. They may have been
mad at them for some reason and used it as an excuse, but she still
have to have done it before they were shut down. I suspect the reason
they turned him back on because they then got scared because they felt
like they might be dealing with an angry mob.
Texas rider
> opinion but I have an interest in the facts, which I've asked for. Your
> seem to have an abundance of opinion and little interest in the facts. Do
> whatever you want. I will to.
This is what you wrote in the first email:
Since I'm the public relations person for Parelli Natural
Horsemanship, I feel it incumbent upon me to let you all know what
happened
and how Pat, Linda, PNH President Mark Weiler and I are responding to
it.
You don't really have an interest in the facts. You have an interest
in doing your job, so you thought a way to do this was to post this
email. I'm just not so sure it helped your cause. You felt we should
all feel sorry for them for getting shut down. There are two sides to
the story and you neglected to tell us the other side which may not be
so favorable to your employer.
Why were they told not to jump the picnic table? That's the key
question which you didn't answer. Also tell us if there was a reason
that the Parelli's possibly were singled out if the other people were
doing things that were more dangerous. If so, why would a show
organizer who went to a lot of trouble to book your group then want to
shut you down if there wasn't a real good reason? If you've ever tried
to buy an insurance policy for a riding event, you may see why that
was probably the issue. Did they tell the Parelli's why they were not
to do this? You didn't answer that, either.
Texas rider
Sir, never over estimate the intelligence of the public and try to
never make assumptions. It will get you into trouble.
Just think about all the lame-brain things some of the regular
posters here did as kids (and maybe you did too) and you'll understand
it. I had some friends who once went to the Big Bend on rented horses
with a group of people and guides for a multi-day ride. One overweight
middle aged woman was flirting with one of the wranglers. He was on
his horse below her and she climbed up on a rock overhang and jumped
off, trying to land double on the man's horse. The horse bolted when
the hefalump landed on his back from on high, and did serious damage
to the woman. That was the end of the ride as they had to send people
back many miles to get a doctor for this sterling piece of humanity.
Ruined the ride for everyone else-- and this was an adult, not a
kid...
Thomas Bloomer
So you think PP should pay higher taxes, screw around on his wife, and let
the govrenment raise his children.
Thomas Bloomer
Communists don't let the press talk about the mistress under the desk in the
Oval Office.
Paula Jantunen
:>PS. I'm a democrat.
: So you think PP should pay higher taxes, screw around on his wife, and let
: the govrenment raise his children.
I'm so glad we've got such intelligent, relevant and sensible discussion in
this ng...
--
Paula Jantunen * paujantu at cc dot joensuu dot fi * Piacenza * Italy
* "But like, MAN, Gandalf is SUCH a ripoff of Obi-Wan Kenobi, *
* it's not funny..." - Dork Tower, Jan 2002 *
* * * http://cc.joensuu.fi/~paujantu/ Remove gotcha to reply * * * *
Thomas Bloomer
>minority for succeeding.
No. Obvoiusly you difficulty with reading and comprehension. Apperantly
you think that nobody can learn anything about horses unless someone holds
their hand and takes them every step of the way. Just because you are
learning disabled does not mean that the rest of the world shares your
affliction. Since I have the ability to read, understand, and apply a
concept (something obviously foreign to you) I was able to take advantage of
the information.
>Most of the clinic devotees let the horse fend for
>himself till the next big clinic is due and go again__it takes constant
>clinics to teach a moron he can't do this alone.
Since I have never met "most of clinic devotees" I will take your word for
it. I have some customers (horseshoeing) that have purchased the books and
videos and then gone out and used the techniques and concepts. But like me,
these people have also done their homework with multiple sources of
information, including professional trainers, books, magazines etc. In
general these folks are educated (college) and they are turned off by the
"good ol' boy mentality.
>Advertising, eh? The Equine Affaire is billed as an "educational
>experience", and I know hordes of people who wait and go for the
educational
>aspects of the Affaire. Attracting customers is what it is about, huh?
Well,
>good for you, you do understanding the old bait and switch. It turns my
>stomach.
>Well, it's sad to know that even a devotee sees the down side. Alas, maybe
>you ought to get out more too, you could have learned all those good things
>all at a stable with many good trainers or instructors, and I would guess
>for far less money in the long run.
Further demonstrating your inability to read and comprehend. I feel sorry
for you. I know, while the smart kids were learning to read, you were out
riding your horse, right?
>Doesn't it cost about $900 to take your horse to a clinic?
I wouldn't know.
>Hundreds of hours is exactly what it takes.
Maybe for you and the horse, but not for me. There is nothing to be learned
in the clinic that isn't covered in the book.
>Let's say a hundred clinics manages to add up to $9000? Now that is a hunk
of >change. :(
Your math skills are impressive.
>Seems only to piss off the republicans the last time
>I looked into pissing one off.]
A republican would be amused more than pissed off. I'm a devout atheist, so
that sort-of excludes me from being affiliated with a political party.
Cheers,
TB
Thomas Bloomer
Wouldn't dream of it. My point is that if people kill themselves by going
out and doing stupid stuff, I support their right to do so. Seems that you
would rather legislate the option to choose rather than allow that freedom.
I have no interest in imposing my will on humanity - there are enough
humans. That doesn't mean I don't value human life, but that I value
FREEDOM more than human life.
>That was the end of the ride as they had to send people
>back many miles to get a doctor for this sterling piece of humanity.
>Ruined the ride for everyone else-- and this was an adult, not a
>kid...
If she had died, it would have been while she was having a good time :-)
TB
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
> > Yes, YOU forwarded to the list an item forwarded to YOU by a Parelli
> > insider. Frankly, this does some damage to the credibility of your
> > statement that you are not a "devotee." If you were not, why bother to
> > bring up a subject that had not been broached by anyone else?
>
> Guilt by association? Are you responsible for what others send you
> unsolicited?
Who said anything about guilt? I am not responsible for what I get, only
for what I post/forward.
I posted it for anyone who found it interesting. Given
> the number of posts that have followed, it seems a subject that some
> have found interesting enough to post further on.
True enough, but the fact remains you posted a defense before there was an
attack!<g>
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
Madeline Rockwell
news:Xns931AED75D17A0kr...@198.252.58.3...
> "Fran" <fbr...@worldnet.att.net> posted some stuff that looked like
> this:
>
> > promote. (Basically, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing
> > difficult for the horse.)
>
> That would be Tom and Bill Dorrance talking. They are now relegated to
> Dead Old Guy status. They taught Ray Hunt (rapidly approaching Dead Old
> Guy status). From whom the NH crowd snatched more than they care to
admit.
According to Tom Dorrance's website, he hasn't achieved the "Dead old guy"
status. At least not as of last Tuesday, when the website was updated.
madeline
Bill Kambic
> >Sir, never over estimate the intelligence of the public
>
> Wouldn't dream of it. My point is that if people kill themselves by going
> out and doing stupid stuff, I support their right to do so. Seems that
you
> would rather legislate the option to choose rather than allow that
freedom.
> I have no interest in imposing my will on humanity - there are enough
> humans. That doesn't mean I don't value human life, but that I value
> FREEDOM more than human life.
I, too, dislike the "nanny state." I, too, support an adult's right to do
just about anything they want to as long as they don't unreasonably hurt
others. But if you support FREEDOM, you not only support the freedom to do
stupid things, you must also support the freedom of a property owner to say,
"don't do stupid things inside my close."
Frankly, the reason for show management's action is a big "so what?". They
had the power, and the duty, to act as they saw fit in the management of
what goes on while they run the show. Unless restricted by law (statute,
regulation, or contract) THEY (not the performer) have the ultimate POWER to
say "yes" or "no."
The "state" was not a player, here.
> >That was the end of the ride as they had to send people
> >back many miles to get a doctor for this sterling piece of humanity.
> >Ruined the ride for everyone else-- and this was an adult, not a
> >kid...
>
> If she had died, it would have been while she was having a good time :-)
The lawyers would have had a good time afterwards, too!<g>
Shelley
> I haven't seen a Parelli demonstration, but there were some O'Connor,
> Phillip Dutton, and Ann Kurzinski demonstrations at Equine Affaire in Mass.
> that, I guarantee, were MUCH more risky, heart-stopping and just plain
> terrifying than a schooled horse ridden by a pro jumping a picnic table. I
> really think the liability/insurance issue is a non-starter. Sounds like a
> power play to me.
>
> madeline
Well, I have seen a PP demo (at Equine Affaire, Ohio) and I walked
away thinking I'd just witnessed a safety nightmare, even without
seeing any "picnic table jumping". It was a BIG crowd pleaser demo,
however, and those with our view were definitely in the minority. The
types of saftey gaffes that bugged me the most weren't high risk
stunts, but basic lack of common sense things that keep emergency
rooms hoppin', regardless of the pursuit.
Francis Burton
Shelley <glenga...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well, I have seen a PP demo (at Equine Affaire, Ohio) and I walked
>away thinking I'd just witnessed a safety nightmare, even without
>seeing any "picnic table jumping". It was a BIG crowd pleaser demo,
>however, and those with our view were definitely in the minority. The
>types of saftey gaffes that bugged me the most weren't high risk
>stunts, but basic lack of common sense things that keep emergency
>rooms hoppin', regardless of the pursuit.
When you say "safety gaffes", do you mean things which
could go wrong or did go wrong?
Would you say the same thing about e.g. cross-country
competition, where people sometimes do get hurt and killed?
If you wouldn't, what is the essential difference between
what PPites do with their horses and what cross-country
riders do?
(Not defending or slamming PP - it's really not my cup of
tea.)
Francis
danh
news:f2f1851.03020...@posting.google.com...
> I don't have much of an
> > opinion but I have an interest in the facts, which I've asked for. Your
> > seem to have an abundance of opinion and little interest in the facts.
Do
> > whatever you want. I will to.
>
> This is what you wrote in the first email:
> Since I'm the public relations person for Parelli Natural
> Horsemanship, I feel it incumbent upon me to let you all know what
> happened
> and how Pat, Linda, PNH President Mark Weiler and I are responding to
> it.
I can scarcely believe you've written this. Allow me to refresh your ailing
memory. Please refer to the Google archive for confirmation.
The only portion of the post that started this thread that *I* (danh) wrote
was:
"The following is an email that was forwarded to me today. FYI if
interested. Did anyone witness this?" What followed was the PR person's
remarks. If you'd look at the post, you'll see that *everything* that
followed my lines was in quotation marks. An astute observer would also
note that I included the person's name and title. I've never been called
"Kate" - at least not to my face. <g> I posted it solely because I wanted
to know if anyone could provide a more objective description of events,
which thus far, NO ONE has done.
Now that your misreading/misinterpretation of my post has been exposed, I
hope you'll exhibit more dignity than Kambic, who is still clinging to his
version of the English language in which someone asking for factual
information is actually a shill. (I'll get to him shortly.)
[Remaining misstatements snipped.]
Claudia Wheatley
<bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
As opposed to a Republican who chickened out of going to war himself but
is ready to send thousands of young people into combat, gives away the
national treasury to his rich friends as a means of "stimulating" the
economy, and is prepared to sell off the environment to the highest
bidder? Yes.
C, who hates both parties but is sick unto death of sanctimonious
conservatives who poke at dog poop while ignoring the mountain of shit
in their own back yard.
Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
"Paradise is exactly like/where you are right now
Only much, much better." --Laurie Anderson
Lou W
>
> So you think PP should pay higher taxes, screw around on his wife, and let
> the govrenment raise his children.
>
>
Ken Brown
that looked like this:
> Thomas Bloomer <bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
>:>PS. I'm a democrat.
>
>: So you think PP should pay higher taxes, screw around on his wife, and
>: let the govrenment raise his children.
>
> I'm so glad we've got such intelligent, relevant and sensible
> discussion in this ng...
Would you rather see *ME* get twisted up and go postal?? Or go back to the
sexual innuendo posts? Uh huh.... thought so.
Paula Jantunen
: Paula Jantunen <pauj...@cc.gotcha.joensuu.fi.invalid> posted some stuff
: that looked like this:
:> I'm so glad we've got such intelligent, relevant and sensible
:> discussion in this ng...
: Would you rather see *ME* get twisted up and go postal?? Or go back to the
: sexual innuendo posts? Uh huh.... thought so.
Uh, thought what? :-)
Ken Brown
looked like this:
> According to Tom Dorrance's website, he hasn't achieved the "Dead old
> guy" status. At least not as of last Tuesday, when the website was
> updated.
I stand corrected (write that down .. heh). Tom has been and is very, very
ill. He is quite elderly and suffered a stroke. A benefit in 1999(?) was
held in Ft. Worth for him - good video if you ever get a chance to see a
copy. I know I had heard in the past few months he had another stroke and
was effectively no longer speaking, etc., so I might have translated that
in my head to "we lost Tom".
Bill passed away July 20, 1999. Ray was pretty bad off when I saw him last
year, but still doing clinics and has a full schedule this year.
If it matters, I can make a phone call and get the straight info on Tom.
danh
> "tenwheels" wrote in message
>
> <snipped for brevity>
I think you snipped for the sake of obscuring your error. I gave you an
opportunity to correct your error, but you didn't take it.
> > > Yes, YOU forwarded to the list an item forwarded to YOU by a Parelli
> > > insider. Frankly, this does some damage to the credibility of your
> > > statement that you are not a "devotee." If you were not, why bother
to
> > > bring up a subject that had not been broached by anyone else?
> >
> > Guilt by association? Are you responsible for what others send you
> > unsolicited?
>
> Who said anything about guilt? I am not responsible for what I get, only
> for what I post/forward.
Very disingenuous. You were falsely trying to paint me as a devotee solely
for the purpose of discrediting me. Really scurrilous of you. Using
Kambickian logic, I must be a devotee of the cavalry since you provided me
the link to that site.
> I posted it for anyone who found it interesting. Given
> > the number of posts that have followed, it seems a subject that some
> > have found interesting enough to post further on.
>
> True enough, but the fact remains you posted a defense before there was an
> attack!<g>
Bullshit! You've snipped the next section in which I made it clear to
anyone with an elementary school knowledge of English that I had received
the email.and I was seeking to verify what had been passed on to me
(incidentally, twice removed from any PP lists). *Before* posting the
defense, I asked for independent observations. I couldn't very well have
asked for independent observations without indicating what event was at
issue.
It is eminently clear by now that everything everyone has posted about the
incident is neither factual nor based on personal observation.
Here's another opportunity to set things right: "Why didn't you check your
facts about what I wrote before you made your accusations?"
Feel free to snip it all but the previous sentence.