bit suggestions?
Anine Swart
but I can tell he's not 100% happy in it. He snatches at the reins,
tries crossing his jaw and generally acts unhappy when I take up a
definite contact.
I've tried a french link, snaffle baucher, 3-ring snaffle on its
mildest setting and a rubber d-ring snaffle. He hates bits that exert
poll pressure and can be a bit leany in your hands (I'm working on
that). He also has a strong neck and can be a bit hot so if he takes
off he sometimes runs right through the bit. (I only tried him in the
rubber D once, it was a disaster)
He's an 8yo recently gelded Friesian, strong arched neck with a nice
throatlatch, not too thick. He has a low palette and it surprised me
that he didn't like the french link! He regularly has his teeth looked
at by an equine dentist and he has no wolf teeth.
does anybody have any suggestions I can try regarding bits? something
mellow but that he'll be comfortable in. my trainer suggest a
waterford or a d-ring copper roler?
thanx!
-Anine and Draco, wonder Friesian
RPM1
> He has a low palette
Anything with a mullen mouth for a horse with a
low palette.
My low palette, narrow mouthed Tb was fussed by just
about every bit I tried on her until we got a mullen
mouth bit. Now, that's what we use on just about any
horse.
Ruth CM
Katy White
without a lot of room in their mouths not so happy with a snaffle,
unless it's a three piece dr. bristol or a french link.
You also might want to try one of those happy-mouth bits with a mullen
mouth rather than a snaffle.
See if you can borrow a friends before you buy one - it'll save you
$$.
Katy, owned and loved by Feather, who gets ridden in four different
types of bits, depending on what we're doing ...
Waterford
loose ring french link snaffle
slow twist snaffle
3 piece dr. bristol pelham
Ken Brown
> Anine Swart wrote:
> > He has a low palette
>
> Anything with a mullen mouth for a horse with a
> low palette.
I take it the bit doesn't get in the way of the horse's painting? Or
perhaps the horse is a paint with a palette of color? Ahh.. but the
image of a horse painting with its palette attached to one leg while
it swabs away with a brush with the other ... and how *did* you get
the horse to learn to stand for so long to paint??
It sure makes sense to me to use a nullen mouth on rings if the horse
has a high palette (so the cheeks don't interfere) but when it is a
low palette? Is it such a big issue at that point? And what does all
of this have to do with a mouth anyway??
Heh
RPM1
> I take it the bit doesn't get in the way of the horse's painting?
LOL I must have Benjamin Moore Syndrome.
I'm currently doing a painting job at the farm. BIG
living room, tons of trim, 12' ceilings... It's a
surprise for Pat's aunt who is away in Poland for 3
weeks. I was at it for 12 hours yesterday and probably
got 1/4 of the room done. I can stop thinking about
painting! Arrrgh.
> It sure makes sense to me to use a nullen
Is that a mouth-less bit? A new invention of yours, Ken?
Sounds good!
> mouth on rings if the horse
> has a high palette (so the cheeks don't interfere) but when it is a
> low palette? Is it such a big issue at that point? And what does all
> of this have to do with a mouth anyway??
Oh, shaddup.
Ruth CM
Bill Kambic
> Ken Brown wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
> > It sure makes sense to me to use a nullen
>
> Is that a mouth-less bit? A new invention of yours, Ken?
> Sounds good!
A "mullen mouth" is a straight bar mouthpiece (no joints of any kind; it is
generally slightly curved). It can be made out of many different materials
(metal, rubber, leather, etc.). And, no, Ken did not invent it!<g>
We have used it a couple of times with good results when other things
failed.
One Great Myth is that each horse needs one bit. This is quite wrong. Each
horse needs one bit for the job it is doing at the time. This can even mean
changing bits during a riding/training session if that is necessary to
accomplishment of the task. This also means that every horse owner has to
have a "bit wall" with the bits necessary to thier usage of the horse. One
size will not fit all; one size will only fit some.<g>
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
snixie
go... Most of my horses love it.. and before the flaming starts... they all
respond to the weight of the rein only.. there is no pulling...
My arab also likes his KK training bit.. it has 3 links rather than 2, maybe
that would help??
Nic
"Anine Swart" <asw...@cids.org.za> wrote in message
news:d3c48388.02110...@posting.google.com...
Dawn Lawson
Bill Kambic wrote:
> "RPM1" wrote in message
>
> > Ken Brown wrote:
>
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> > > It sure makes sense to me to use a nullen
> >
> > Is that a mouth-less bit? A new invention of yours, Ken?
> > Sounds good!
>
> A "mullen mouth" is a straight bar mouthpiece (no joints of any kind; it is
> generally slightly curved). It can be made out of many different materials
> (metal, rubber, leather, etc.). And, no, Ken did not invent it!<g>
*pst*, Bill?
Ken typed Nullen, Ruth's making fun of him. Revenge for the painting jokes.
Bill Kambic
Yup. That's what I get for typing before coffee!<g>
Terry von Gease
news:Hpty9.71375$g9.2...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Depending on what type of training you are doing maybe give a hackamore a
> go... Most of my horses love it.. and before the flaming starts... they
all
> respond to the weight of the rein only.. there is no pulling...
This then is what's known as a preemptive rationalization in defense of
ineptitude. Assuming that by hackamore you mean mechanical hackamore. A
device with no reason to exist other than to lull those who cannot ride into
thinking that they are actually doing so. Most often, but not necessarily,
on ill trained specimens of animated dog food.
It works like this:
1. A good horse is a good horse and will perform passably in most any
headgear you put on it.
2. Anyone that can ride a horse can exact a performance out of a horse in
whatever the beast might be wearing.
That being the case, what possible reason could there be for selecting the
headgear equivalent of two tin cans on a string as a communications medium
other than an ill-trained horse and/or an inept rider? Medical conditions
notwithstanding, we're taking about a device of choice, not accommodating
some infirmity or another .
>
> My arab also likes his KK training bit.. it has 3 links rather than 2,
maybe
> that would help??
While it can be said that a horse likes this or that piece of gear the
context is in the same sense of saying that your car likes this or that
flavor of fuel.
--
Terry
You can accomplish more with a smile and a gun
than just a smile.
Anine Swart
giving with my hands and not asking for too much bend or collection. He
hated it. 15 minutes into the lesson he started snatching and yanking and
didn't stop until I gave him all the reins. bending and steering also felt
worse, he actively resisted when I asked for a bend to the inside. *sigh*
The yard's having the dentist come out again later this month, but he's had
his teeth done two months ago.
I little disheartened :(
--
---
Anine Swart
http://www.digital-fire.za.net
Bill Kambic
He was OK for 15 min. then the problems started? Assuming proper size and
fit, and assuming no mouth pathology, then we must look somewhere else for
the problem.
First place is "operator error." Have someone videotape you as you ride for
15 min. or so, then review the tape. Be honest with yourself; if you have
any questions, let a "neutral party" review it. There is a better than 50%
chance of you being the problem. Note that this is not a moral
condemnation, just an observation based upon some experience.
Second, look at saddle fit. This may or may not be in addition to operatior
error. It is not uncommon for horses with a slightly malfitting saddle to
"tolerate" the pain for some period of time, then react.
Third, you may have trained the horse to this behavior. If you quit as soon
as he starts the head tossing then he will quickly learn that he gets our of
work by tossing his head. This is really a subset of No. 1, but I state it
separately so it can be considered separately.
If none of these work, then seek professional help. Let a person with an
experienced eye watch you and the horse. Then be guided by what that eye
reveals.
Good luck.
Velvet
If your horse responds well to a snaffle, I wouldn't use anything more
severe. You can try flavored bits. I ride my Friesian/TB cross in a
pinchless D ring snaffle bit. I agree with the saying "less bit - more
rider". When I go trail riding, or especially during the winter- I use the
bitless bridle. It really works! If you want to check it out, here is a
link: http://www.bitlessbridle.com I think it would work well on your
horse too. I even know people who use it for eventing, etc.
One of our Morgan geldings was always frantically chewing on his bit - no
matter what kind we used. So we switched him to the bitless bridle and all
his problems were solved!
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that there are other options you can
consider.
Suzy
HHamp5246
<rpm1de...@frontiernet.net> writes:
>
>I'm currently doing a painting job at the farm. BIG
>living room, tons of trim, 12' ceilings... It's a
>surprise for Pat's aunt who is away in Poland for 3
>weeks. I was at it for 12 hours yesterday and probably
>got 1/4 of the room done. I can stop thinking about
>painting! Arrrgh.
Good grief woman, are you applying it with a Q-tip? <g>
I love painting, do it when I get a chance..... I think the best way to appy
paint to walls in with a paint pad, not a roller....... if you haven't tried
using the pad you should......
Hunter
Tamara Howard
He snatches at the reins,
> tries crossing his jaw and generally acts unhappy when I take up a
> definite contact.
He also has a strong neck and can be a bit hot so if he takes
> off he sometimes runs right through the bit. (I only tried him in the
> rubber D once, it was a disaster)
he needs to be taught to "whoa" in a snaffle...you have
described to me is a classic "rooter"...he has at one time learned
to hate bits...period...and no new bit 9or non bit) will fix
that unless you teach him to whoa on a word and then from your
seat leaving the bit to do more important things...
it is time consuming and mind deadening for the
rider...but you must be able to simply sit more deeply in your
saddle ( a whole halt and not a half halt) and have him stop...I
do think once you've managed this that he will be less
resentful of the bit because he will understand what is expected
finally...but it takes a VERY good rider with a good deal of feel
for the effort being made to accomplish it...
good luck
Tamara in TN
RPM1
> Good grief woman, are you applying it with a Q-tip? <g>
I KNOW! Usually I can knock off a room in a couple of
hours.
> I love painting, do it when I get a chance..... I think the best way to appy
> paint to walls in with a paint pad, not a roller....... if you haven't tried
> using the pad you should......
I'm addicted to painting. We've lived in this house
for 5 years and each room has been at least 3 colors.
The living room has been 5 and will be a 6th soon. Don't
tell the husband. ;-)
LOVE the pads for cutting in. I still use a roller tho
for the rest. I also get a lot of use out of mini rollers.
The room is about 20' x 30'. For the last 20 years it's
been a faded, flat hunter green from crown molding to floor
(12'ceilings). I'm trying to re-claim all of the wonderful
molding and furring strips (probably the wrong term) to an
off white. I tried stripping it down to the wood (walnut)
but I just couldn't take the fumes! The hunter green is the
farm's trademark so that ain't going anywhere. :-\ Ralph
Lauren's "Equestrian Green" was the choice for this deal.
I had it color matched into a Ben Moore paint (better
quality paint IMO). The trim is in "Edwardian Linen"
which I had matched in Pittsburgh Paints. There are
9 - 8' windows some of which are currently green :-O
along with some doors and a big window seat to deal with.
It's a tough go but I love doing it.
I'm not even touching the ceiling which is a very elaborate
plaster effort in need of some professional repairs. I know
my limits.
Under the gold carpet is this amazing wide plank flooring.
I suspect the wood for the house was harvested on the farm,
no Home Depot back in the mid-1800s! Historically, IIRC,
the floor should be painted an icky gray. The carpet is fine
for now.
Ruth CM
Apetrouser
Becky
snixie
dressage. When they are out for a trail they PREFER to have their mouths
free. Neither of my horses are ill trained - both have very soft mouths and
are responsive on the snaffle. It is a matter of thinking of their
comfort.. when they don't have a bit in their mouths, they know they are
going out for a pleasure ride, not training. By using the hackamore, I have
also been abl;e to train the mare up to accept a halter, and now just a rope
around her neck for paddock wanders. I have seen no ill effects of
hackamores - when they are used sensibly.. they are NOT the option for
people that cannot ride tho..
I am interested to hear what negative experiences you have had with them
tho - always willing to concede that there may be a better way. If you can
suggest something else I would be more than willing to give it a go. My
gelding is a pushier boy, and more likely to "explode" with high spirits
than the mare, so I am not comfortable riding him on a halter. (tho that
may be my issue.. ;-)
BTW, it would be great to discuss this, but can you refrain from calling my
horses "ill trained specimens of animated dog food" I would like to hear
your opinion, but I don't think that kind of attitude is that productive...
Nic
"Terry von Gease" <t...@gv.net> wrote in message
news:usl0gta...@corp.supernews.com...
HHamp5246
<sni...@bigpond.com> writes:
> I have seen no ill effects of
>hackamores - when they are used sensibly.. they are NOT the option for people
that cannot ride tho..>
I use a mechanical hack on one of my horses. He's happy and goes the best in
it. I'm happy that he's happy. It works for both of us.
Keep using it, there's no reason not to.
Hunter
Bill Kambic
> Both of my horses also have snaffles which they use when we are working
> dressage. When they are out for a trail they PREFER to have their mouths
> free.
And you know this because...?
Neither of my horses are ill trained - both have very soft mouths and
> are responsive on the snaffle. It is a matter of thinking of their
> comfort..
A mechanical hack is a VERY powerful device that works on the cartiledge in
the face, IIRC. In no way, shape, or form is it more inherently "mild" than
a well fitted, correctly used bit. Indeed, the bit is considerably lighter
and has a lot less "gee gaw" associated with it. IMO the bit will be
considerably easier on the horse, overall.
Of course, I guess I'd have to get the "horse psychic" lady from Animal
Planet to come by and let my horses communicate through her to be sure.
when they don't have a bit in their mouths, they know they are
> going out for a pleasure ride, not training.
This is a monumentally amazing statement. My horses are "in training" from
the minute I walk into the pasture to the time I walk out. How could it be
any other way?
By using the hackamore, I have
> also been abl;e to train the mare up to accept a halter, and now just a
rope
> around her neck for paddock wanders. I have seen no ill effects of
> hackamores - when they are used sensibly.. they are NOT the option for
> people that cannot ride tho..
The bit is a communication device. Indeed, it is a rather precise
communication device, like clear handwriting on fine paper. A mechanical
hack is like somebody scrawling on a window pane with a bar of soap. Maybe
sufficient for some purposes, but not for most.
> BTW, it would be great to discuss this, but can you refrain from calling
my
> horses "ill trained specimens of animated dog food" I would like to hear
> your opinion, but I don't think that kind of attitude is that
productive...
The phrase "explode in high spirits" is one of those phrases like "needs an
experienced rider." It tells folks with some real equine experience that
there may be more going on than "meets the eye." Like all amibiguous
phrases it can be read more than one way, but in my personal experience it
means that the rider is unable to control their horse in some circumstances,
leading to the conclusion that the rider lacks skill, the horse lacks
training, and/or some combination of the two. It is not always the case,
but is so the vast majority of the time.
Or, put another way, the race does not always go to the swift, nor the
battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets.
Terry can be "colorful," but I have worked with lots of "colorful" folks in
my lifetime. And I have worked with many who were not nearly so colorful.
I have learned from both, and I expect to continue that pattern in the
future. Seems to me you should be far more concerned about the contents of
the box than the wrapping paper that surrounds it.
But maybe that's just me...
Charlie Moore
hardware can be a nightmare in the wrong hands. On the other hand some of
the scariest looking things can be humane and effective if properly used. An
example is Bell, who was a real head case when it came to whips when we
started. Now a few years down the road the whip is just another cue/bug
chaser/apple knocker to her. Not that I am a better handler than her last
owner, I just have a different use and approach for the item. The whip is
still a whip it is the employment that is different.
Bits and hacks can be the same. At times I have nailed the mare in the
mouth with her snaffle because I lost concentration or patience. That is a
bad use of a relatively soft bit. On the other hand now that she has gotten
the seat and leg cues down we have moved on to neck reining and a leverage
bit. So we have less mouth contact with a stronger bit, which is a good
thing.
It all comes down to the handler knowing their job and the horse being
ready too. That way the animal gets tack that is right not necessarily what
is popular at the moment.
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20021107203128...@mb-fs.aol.com...
Ken Brown
> Both of my horses also have snaffles which they use when we are working
> dressage. When they are out for a trail they PREFER to have their
> mouths free.
And you know they prefer one thing over the other because?
> Neither of my horses are ill trained - both have very
> soft mouths and are responsive on the snaffle. It is a matter of
Neither one .. OK ...
> thinking of their comfort.. when they don't have a bit in their mouths,
> they know they are going out for a pleasure ride, not training. By
It is not a comfort issue. It is a human misconcception that a MH is more
comfy than a bit.
> sensibly.. they are NOT the option for people that cannot ride tho..
Nor for ill-trained horses.
> it a go. My gelding is a pushier boy, and more likely to "explode"
> with high spirits than the mare, so I am not comfortable riding him on
> a halter. (tho that may be my issue.. ;-)
Uh huh. And this gelding is not ill-trained, has a soft mouth and is
responsive. OK ... whatever. Last time I checked, the possibility of
"exploding" with high spirits meant the horse has some major training
issues.
FWIW, a MH is the most useless piece of gear for communicating soft cues to
a horse. It is like trying to paint a fine portrait with a roller on an
8x10 canvas. If your horses were truly soft and responsive, you could ride
a trail and leave the reins slack - thus being out of their mouth.
snixie
the arab has a tendancy to muck up because he is just coming back into work
not because he is ill trained... he has been unsound for over 2 years and
was (another injury 2 weeks ago :-( ) just starting work again - he is also
a more flighty horse (even in the paddock he will shy and carry on if there
is wind and things rustling - hence the ability to be the only horse out of
7 to injure itself in over a year..). I am just starting to get into
Parelli and TTeam to try some different methods of handling with him to
enable me to best cope with his personality and to give him more confidence.
The mare in particular "appears to prefer a hackamore" (heaven forbid that I
may profess to know what they think from watching their actions...) because
she eagerly looks for the bridle - UNTIL you go to put the bit in.. she is
very well mannered so it is not an issue, but she prefers NOT to have a
piece of metal in her mouth.. (she does not wave her head round or do
anything silly - she just shuts her mouth rather hard until she is told to
open it).
I would also like to know why you can tell me that the hackamore is NOT more
comfy? surely you are relying on obseved horse behaviour to come to that
conclusion as well??
I know that I would prefer not to have a big bit of metal in my mouth!
We use trail rides for relaxation - the horses are allowed to meander along
and graze when we are stopped for a while. They find it easier to eat
without a bit - and with the drought in Australia at the moment, as far as I
am concerned - the more green pick they can get the better.
I am aware that I can leave the reins slack with a snaffle -- however they
still have a piece of metal in their mouths! I can also leave the reins
slack on a hackamore and not interfere with them at all plus, they don;t
have anything in their mouths.
This is a piece of equipment that myself and many friends have used for
years - all of our horses respond to both snaffles and hackamores - all are
happy.. are you quite so narrow minded that you cannot perceive the
possibility that a hackamore CAN work in some situations??
"Ken Brown" <nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92C0132F5DEB8kr...@198.252.58.3...
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
> Ok then..
> the arab has a tendancy to muck up because he is just coming back into
work
> not because he is ill trained...
No, he has "training issues." It's all "training issues." Unless and until
you accept that fact you will not progress.
> The mare in particular "appears to prefer a hackamore" (heaven forbid that
I
> may profess to know what they think from watching their actions...)
because
> she eagerly looks for the bridle - UNTIL you go to put the bit in.. she is
> very well mannered so it is not an issue, but she prefers NOT to have a
> piece of metal in her mouth.. (she does not wave her head round or do
> anything silly - she just shuts her mouth rather hard until she is told to
> open it).
Well, maybe so and maybe not. Based upon your assertions to date, your
ability to accurately assess the situation is in question.
> I would also like to know why you can tell me that the hackamore is NOT
more
> comfy? surely you are relying on obseved horse behaviour to come to that
> conclusion as well??
I told you above.
> I know that I would prefer not to have a big bit of metal in my mouth!
So, you would rather have someone continuously punching you in the nose?
> We use trail rides for relaxation - the horses are allowed to meander
along
> and graze when we are stopped for a while. They find it easier to eat
> without a bit - and with the drought in Australia at the moment, as far as
I
> am concerned - the more green pick they can get the better.
More "anthropomorphic horsemanship."
Taking a horse out on the trail after a work session is a Very Good Thing.
Eliminating all discipline while you do it is a Very Foolish Thing.
> I am aware that I can leave the reins slack with a snaffle -- however
they
> still have a piece of metal in their mouths!
So what? Explain why bits are in any way, shape, or form inappropriate as a
communication device. Please go beyond personal opinion (yours or others).
I can also leave the reins
> slack on a hackamore and not interfere with them at all plus, they don;t
> have anything in their mouths.
It is a myth that "slack reins" are a Good Thing. They deprive the rider of
feel and the horse of support. Light reins are Very Good Things. Slack
reins are a sign of rider ignorance.
>
> This is a piece of equipment that myself and many friends have used for
> years - all of our horses respond to both snaffles and hackamores - all
are
> happy.. are you quite so narrow minded that you cannot perceive the
> possibility that a hackamore CAN work in some situations??
Argumentum ad populum.
Ken Brown
> I borrowed a waterford snaffle today and purposely tried being soft and
> giving with my hands and not asking for too much bend or collection. He
> hated it. 15 minutes into the lesson he started snatching and yanking and
> didn't stop until I gave him all the reins. bending and steering also felt
> worse, he actively resisted when I asked for a bend to the inside. *sigh*
Go backward to go forward. Back up to just walking around with no
contact. Just walk. For half an hour. Walk and *maybe* a little
trot. Keep out of his mouth and face. Use your legs to steer, not
your hands. Use your body to stop, not your hands. Let him know "it
is no big deal if there is a bit in your mouth and you are being
ridden". Then get off the horse.
Repeat. Many days. Add some "contact" and if he resists, back down
*before* he fights - you can't win that fight anyway. Add a little
and give it back as he gives the direction you desire. Reward his
slightest effort, and he will continue his efforts to give.
If all else fails, tie his ass back for 10 minutes on each side (low)
each day for a few days. Repeat as necessary. He'll get over it.
> I little disheartened :(
Why? It is a horse, not a riddle or puzzle you can solve with some
mechanical equation or movement. A horse is a horse. Get smarter
than he is and the problem will go away. To be smarter than he is,
you start by knowing which
'fight' you can win and how to influence him to get the results you
desire.
Now, go put some serious miles on the horse and come back and tell us
what you learned.
Kris Anderson
> [....]
> may profess to know what they think from watching their actions...) because
> she eagerly looks for the bridle - UNTIL you go to put the bit in.. she is
> very well mannered so it is not an issue, but she prefers NOT to have a
> piece of metal in her mouth.. (she does not wave her head round or do
> anything silly - she just shuts her mouth rather hard until she is told to
> open it).
You're extrapolating rather freely here. I'll agree with you that
there are likely lots of horses out there who would prefer to have a
hackamore set on their faces than have a bit put in their mouths.
That does not however, address the problem of which they would prefer
once someone picks up the reins.
I think that a well trained horse with a good rider doesn't much care
what's hanging on his head, since no one's trying to use the hardware
to muscle them into compliance, anyway. OTOH, I'd lay bets that most
horses would rather be ridden in a plain snaffle than have one of
those long shanked, rawhide nosepiece, curb chained mechanical
hackamores clamped down on their snozzolas.
> I would also like to know why you can tell me that the hackamore is NOT more
> comfy? surely you are relying on obseved horse behaviour to come to that
> conclusion as well??
Just watch the way horses react when someone pulls on one of those
long shanked hackamores compared to the way they react to the same
amount of pressure on a non-leverage bit, and that'll give you some
clue as to which causes the most discomfort.
> We use trail rides for relaxation - the horses are allowed to meander along
> and graze when we are stopped for a while. They find it easier to eat
> without a bit - and with the drought in Australia at the moment, as far as I
> am concerned - the more green pick they can get the better.
Agreed. I have a short shanked, flat leather nosepiece hackamore
that I use just for this purpose. The advantage to it is that the way
it's set up it's a lot more stable than those loose, floppy ones, and
because the shanks are short they don't hang down below their chins.
> This is a piece of equipment that myself and many friends have used for
> years - all of our horses respond to both snaffles and hackamores - all are
> happy.. are you quite so narrow minded that you cannot perceive the
> possibility that a hackamore CAN work in some situations??
Sure they work. The problem is that some peoples' experience is so
limited that they think that mechanical hacks only come in the long
and loose shanked, nasty noseband varieties.
Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
Ruth Baltopoulos
[...]
> Agreed. I have a short shanked, flat leather nosepiece hackamore
> that I use just for this purpose. The advantage to it is that the way
> it's set up it's a lot more stable than those loose, floppy ones, and
> because the shanks are short they don't hang down below their chins.
Well, since you brought it up :) I was at the barn last
night enviously watching one of my clients ride my horse
that I am not supposed to ride for another two weeks
(although I did manage to sneak in a bit of walk/trot/canter
when the coast was clear <smirk>) Along came a teenager
that is stabling her new horse at our barn (she shares it a
woman who is seemingly fairly well-read, although only an
advanced beginner in the saddle IMO, but perceives herself
to be a 'trainer/instructor' -- she works with a bunch of
the 4H kids). The mare is three years old, and they bought
her out of a local school program at another barn with a
questionable reputation. The horse was wearing a wide
leather banded hack (fleece lined) with fairly long shanks
(prolly 4").
The parents (who know exactly zero about horses) of the girl
riding said horse were standing around kibitzing while she
rode. She was obviously very nervous, and had a death grip
on the reins -- the shanks were practically parallel to the
ground throughout most of the ride (which was mercifully
short. Considering all the circumstances, and the horses
age, she was a good little thing. The parents told me that
the horse was ridden in a hack in the school program that
she came from because the owner did not want her mouth ruined.
I know little about how to adjust a hack, as I have never
used one -- only seen them in use and have read a tad bit
about them. On this one, the noseband was very loose --
kinda hanging low a few inches above it's nostrils. Didn't
look right, but what do I know. The parents asked me if I
knew why the horse was tossing it's head, and I explained to
them that I didn't know shit from shinola about hacks, but
my understanding was that they should be ridden with a
looped rein and very little contact, as they apply pressure
to the nose and poll. I suggested to the girl (as she said
she had never ridden in one, and was riding as if it were a
non-leverage bit) that she should probably have someone give
her a few lessons and show her how to use it or she should
use a bit (horse has used a bit before, no problem).
What thinks ye?
Ruth B
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
snip
>FWIW, a MH is the most useless piece of gear for communicating soft cues to
>a horse. It is like trying to paint a fine portrait with a roller on an
>8x10 canvas. If your horses were truly soft and responsive, you could ride
>a trail and leave the reins slack - thus being out of their mouth.
Yeppers.
For a real nightmare, try riding a critter broke to ride in a MH.
BTDT, at the tender age of 14 I introduced that critter to the bit
(when she was 8 years old) and she was a better ride for it.
If you want a bitless bridle experience, either learn to use a bosal
or go with a sidepull. Both have much more finesse and the ability to
use soft cues than a MH, and are kinder to the horse.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Ok then..
>the arab has a tendancy to muck up because he is just coming back into work
>not because he is ill trained... he has been unsound for over 2 years and
>was (another injury 2 weeks ago :-( ) just starting work again - he is also
>a more flighty horse (even in the paddock he will shy and carry on if there
>is wind and things rustling - hence the ability to be the only horse out of
>7 to injure itself in over a year..).
Guess what? That's a poorly trained horse with a not-so-good mind.
> I am just starting to get into
>Parelli and TTeam to try some different methods of handling with him to
>enable me to best cope with his personality and to give him more confidence.
Ye gods and little fishes.
>The mare in particular "appears to prefer a hackamore" (heaven forbid that I
>may profess to know what they think from watching their actions...) because
>she eagerly looks for the bridle - UNTIL you go to put the bit in.. she is
>very well mannered so it is not an issue, but she prefers NOT to have a
>piece of metal in her mouth.. (she does not wave her head round or do
>anything silly - she just shuts her mouth rather hard until she is told to
>open it).
Golly gee whiz, ya don't suppose she's that way because she's had the
bit banged against her teeth, or has a poor adjustment so that it's
banging against her teeth, or the like now, do you? Or maybe said
mare needs some work done on her mouth?
Seriously, without the sniping, I've observed horses who have gone
from resisting the bit to mouthing it eagerly when backed down from
harsher bits to a milder bit and having had their teeth worked on.
I'm not talking about personal horses, either, but schoolies who have
exposure to a wide range of handler ability when being bridled. The
biggest testimony for me was a big, spooky Arab gelding who had a bad
habit of resisting the bit. A change in riding school instructors led
to this horse being put in a very mild three-piece snaffle, and MAJOR
mouth work--the equine dentist told me that he used this horse's
original X-rays as a classic example of "horse who REALLY needs mouth
work."
This horse went from a puller who threw his head up to avoid being
bridled, and being jumpy and spooky (and who was consequently being
put in harsher and harsher bits, from a Dr. Bristol to a three-ring
gag to a Pelham) to a horse who eagerly dropped his head and
mouthed/played with the bit when being bridled, didn't pull, and
became relaxed and actually somewhat lazy under saddle. He's the most
dramatic example of this sort of thing I've seen, but I've seen
others.
Your mare may simply be in a bit which is not entirely comfortable for
her.
>I would also like to know why you can tell me that the hackamore is NOT more
>comfy? surely you are relying on obseved horse behaviour to come to that
>conclusion as well??
Mechanical hackamores are leverage devices. They act upon the
cartilege of the horse's nose. They also act upon the lower jaw. If
properly adjusted so that they won't break the bones of the face, they
pinch the lower jaw. If improperly adjusted (low on the nose), they
will cut off air flow and possibly injure the bones on the face.
They are more severe, IMO, as leverage devices than a curb bit with a
curb strap or chain, because the placement of the curb strap is higher
and not optimal for signaling. You also lack the degree of nuance
available with a bit because you DO have to take up more rein to
signal. BTDT...and I prefer my leverage devices to be curb bits,
frankly. More nuance available on a MUCH lighter rein.
snip
>We use trail rides for relaxation - the horses are allowed to meander along
>and graze when we are stopped for a while. They find it easier to eat
>without a bit - and with the drought in Australia at the moment, as far as I
>am concerned - the more green pick they can get the better.
I don't like horses eating when I ride them. Encourages bad habits.
I also prefer to slip the bridle out and have a halter on if stopping
and letting the horse graze. Doing that with a mechanical hack is
asking for trouble--ever had to deal with a horse in a hack that got
tangled up in reins? I have, and the only thing which saved my butt
was that this was a stock-bred QH mare with decent common sense
who stopped fighting pretty damn fast.
Never did *that* again, I tell you....
snip
>This is a piece of equipment that myself and many friends have used for
>years - all of our horses respond to both snaffles and hackamores - all are
>happy.. are you quite so narrow minded that you cannot perceive the
>possibility that a hackamore CAN work in some situations??
Snort. Honeybunch, I can't speak for Ken, but I'm a former MH user
who won't touch the damn things with a ten foot pole. The last time I
used one was with a jumper mare and that was only because I couldn't
get my hands on a sidepull. I wanted to get an answer to a question I
had about this mare and I got it (and she was another one fixed with
proper dentistry and a milder bit). I won't willingly use another one
again.
They're inefficient and too many people who have vapors at the sheer
idea of a curb will use a MH in the mistaken assumption that it's
milder than a curb.
They're wrong.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
> The mare is three years old, and they bought
>her out of a local school program at another barn with a
>questionable reputation. The horse was wearing a wide
>leather banded hack (fleece lined) with fairly long shanks
>(prolly 4").
Oy.
A three year old in a schoolie program?
Oy.
Prolly another one broken to ride in a hack.
Oy.
>The parents (who know exactly zero about horses) of the girl
>riding said horse were standing around kibitzing while she
>rode. She was obviously very nervous, and had a death grip
>on the reins -- the shanks were practically parallel to the
>ground throughout most of the ride (which was mercifully
>short. Considering all the circumstances, and the horses
>age, she was a good little thing. The parents told me that
>the horse was ridden in a hack in the school program that
>she came from because the owner did not want her mouth ruined.
That's the classic excuse for putting a horse in a MH. Use a shitty
piece of equipment rather than train the horse and the kids properly.
Sigh.
Sounds like a nice little horse, though. Too bad she's not been
trained properly....
>I know little about how to adjust a hack, as I have never
>used one -- only seen them in use and have read a tad bit
>about them. On this one, the noseband was very loose --
>kinda hanging low a few inches above it's nostrils.
Not good, if the placement's where I think it is from your
description. Was the curb chain hanging where the curb normally goes
with a bit? If so, the noseband's too low.
>Didn't
>look right, but what do I know. The parents asked me if I
>knew why the horse was tossing it's head, and I explained to
>them that I didn't know shit from shinola about hacks, but
>my understanding was that they should be ridden with a
>looped rein and very little contact, as they apply pressure
>to the nose and poll. I suggested to the girl (as she said
>she had never ridden in one, and was riding as if it were a
>non-leverage bit) that she should probably have someone give
>her a few lessons and show her how to use it or she should
>use a bit (horse has used a bit before, no problem).
She should be using a mild snaffle, really. And before she rides in a
MH, she should be using a curb to get an idea of how to ride properly
in a leverage bit so that she gets feedback from the horse BEFORE she
gets too severe.
Classic syndrome. Sigh.
jrw
Ken Brown
> Ok then..
> the arab has a tendancy to muck up because he is just coming back into work
> not because he is ill trained... he has been unsound for over 2 years and
> was (another injury 2 weeks ago :-( ) just starting work again - he is also
Then he has training issues and, at this point, is ill-trained.
> a more flighty horse (even in the paddock he will shy and carry on if there
> is wind and things rustling - hence the ability to be the only horse out of
More training issues... err.. opportunities for improvement. Sacked
out and broke ought to be numero uno on the hit parade, not something
to "put up with".
> 7 to injure itself in over a year..). I am just starting to get into
> Parelli and TTeam to try some different methods of handling with him to
> enable me to best cope with his personality and to give him more confidence.
That statement alone says you have some major holes in past training,
and in your own abilities vis-a-vis the past handling of the horse.
> The mare in particular "appears to prefer a hackamore" (heaven forbid that I
> may profess to know what they think from watching their actions...) because
Look away. Think away. Try to avoid putting your own human emotional
perspective into the equation.
> she eagerly looks for the bridle - UNTIL you go to put the bit in.. she is
> very well mannered so it is not an issue, but she prefers NOT to have a
> piece of metal in her mouth.. (she does not wave her head round or do
> anything silly - she just shuts her mouth rather hard until she is told to
> open it).
Uhh... lots and lots of horses don't just drop a jaw and eagerly await
a bit. It is often Test 1 to see if you are going to be herd boss and
make them work on a given day. What do you want? A horse begging to
be ridden?? If I had to hazard a guess, I would saya horse prefers to
graze than have anything in their mout or on their nose, let alone a
person on their back.
> I would also like to know why you can tell me that the hackamore is NOT more
> comfy? surely you are relying on obseved horse behaviour to come to that
> conclusion as well??
Physical mechanics of the device as applied to nerves and pressure
points. I remove the emotion from the observation and derive a fairly
accurate answer. I then add in horse behavior based on the mechanics
of the device.
> I know that I would prefer not to have a big bit of metal in my mouth!
You horse prefers not to have you on their back .. and your point is?
Besides, you aren't a horse, you do not have the mouth of a horse, nor
do you have the mind of a horse - why compare them?
> and graze when we are stopped for a while. They find it easier to eat
> without a bit - and with the drought in Australia at the moment, as far as I
> am concerned - the more green pick they can get the better.
Lazy. Remove the bridle and halter them, then let them graze. If you
had a sudden need to scurry away (as in a cavalry at war situation),
it would make sense to allow them to graze while bitted. Ever seen a
grazing bit?
> I am aware that I can leave the reins slack with a snaffle -- however they
> still have a piece of metal in their mouths! I can also leave the reins
So? They also have you on their back, adding NN pounds to their front
end and load. Now .. what is more "comfy" in your mind for yourself
- carrying a pencil in your mouth or walking around with a heavy
backpack? This isn't rocket science you know.
> slack on a hackamore and not interfere with them at all plus, they don;t
> have anything in their mouths.
Shrug. Your anthropomorphism is showing again, as well as your lack
of understanding of horses and horsemanship. If you are so concenred
about having something ina horse's mouth, I suggest you drop riding
altogether, or at least figure out how to ride without a bridle. It
*is* done, you know. And add ot that drop any riding that involves
contact.. such as English styles.
> This is a piece of equipment that myself and many friends have used for
> years - all of our horses respond to both snaffles and hackamores - all are
> happy.. are you quite so narrow minded that you cannot perceive the
> possibility that a hackamore CAN work in some situations??
It can and does, but not for the reasons you have stated. You are
emoptionally, and erroneously, trying to justify the use of a piece of
gear that is not required and has the potential to do harm.
Weak try at the argument. Tons of flaws in there, snookums. Go play
with some TT and some PP and come play again. And don't forget to go
hug your horsie and feed him a treat.
Velvet
> I am just starting to get into
> Parelli
I agree, Parelli methods of training will definitely work. It works on
every horse. Check it out at: www.parelli.com You will be able to ride
your horse brideless, and still have control and be able to do amazing
things! It's all about your relationship, your horse responding to
pressure, harmony and refinement. If your horse responds well to pressure,
you really don't need anything more severe than a snaffle. Just put
yourself in your horse's shoes for a second and picture walking into a
saddle shop and seeing all the different bits and gadgets! You'd probably
freak out and get out of there ASAP. There is no need for any of that if
your horse is trained the right way.
Helene Franzen
wrote:
Hej.
>If your horse responds well to a snaffle, I wouldn't use anything more
>severe. You can try flavored bits. I ride my Friesian/TB cross in a
>pinchless D ring snaffle bit. I agree with the saying "less bit - more
>rider". When I go trail riding, or especially during the winter- I use the
>bitless bridle. It really works! If you want to check it out, here is a
>link: http://www.bitlessbridle.com I think it would work well on your
>horse too. I even know people who use it for eventing, etc.
There was an article in a Swedish horse magazine about bit damage in
horses by a vet. She's been working with an equine dentist and seems
to have done quite a lot of research. among others she refered to
professor emeritus W. Robert Cook, Tuft University, Maryland, USA.
According to Robert Cook 75 % of the horses have bit related injuries
in their mouth. Out of a material of 25000 horses in the equine
dentists journals 90% of mouth problems were bit related.
The list of injuries she numbered was pretty horrifying.
The ways of the horses to resist that she told were the classical
ones. Likewise the respons of a lot of riders to those evasive actions
- harsher bits, nosebands tightend harder.
Urk!
What she recommended was a bitless bridle. Absolutely not a hackamore.
In fact she recommended getting rid of bits altogether.
Mvh
Helene
Velvet
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:3dcbe2f8...@news.aracnet.com...
> If you want a bitless bridle experience, either learn to use a bosal
> or go with a sidepull. Both have much more finesse and the ability to
> use soft cues than a MH, and are kinder to the horse.
>
> jrw
or better yet - use the bitless bridle http://www.bitlessbridle.com
Velvet
"Helene Franzen" <pi...@alcom.aland.fi> wrote in message
news:hiplsugrqtvm261e3...@4ax.com...
> The list of injuries she numbered was pretty horrifying.
> The ways of the horses to resist that she told were the classical
> ones. Likewise the respons of a lot of riders to those evasive actions
> - harsher bits, nosebands tightend harder.
>
> Urk!
>
> What she recommended was a bitless bridle. Absolutely not a hackamore.
>
> In fact she recommended getting rid of bits altogether.
>
> Mvh
>
> Helene
I am not surprised at all. I hate the idea of using harsher bits. It
doesn't fix anything, worse yet - it creates more problems. I wouldn't mind
getting rid of bits - all of my horses do great in a bitless bridle or a
side pull.
Bill Kambic
This is dumbest solution yet. If the MH is a bar of soap scrawling on a
window, the "bitless bridle" is semaphore being waved to a blind signalman.
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
> There was an article in a Swedish horse magazine about bit damage in
> horses by a vet. She's been working with an equine dentist and seems
> to have done quite a lot of research. among others she refered to
> professor emeritus W. Robert Cook, Tuft University, Maryland, USA.
> According to Robert Cook 75 % of the horses have bit related injuries
> in their mouth. Out of a material of 25000 horses in the equine
> dentists journals 90% of mouth problems were bit related.
IIRC, Dr. Cook is the owner/principle of the company that makes bitless
bridles. Does this raise any "red flags" in evaluating his data?
I would also like to know what, if any, financial interst your Swedish vet
has in this matter.
Can bits injure a horse? Yes. So can spurs, saddles, crops, hay, fences,
dewormers, antibiotics, and just about any other instrumentality, natural or
man-made.
The bitless bridle is yet another excuse for not learning how to ride.
Velvet
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3dcc1...@news.vic.com...
> This is dumbest solution yet. If the MH is a bar of soap scrawling on a
> window, the "bitless bridle" is semaphore being waved to a blind
signalman.
Your comment doesn't make sense at all. The bitless bridle is not a
"semaphore being waved to a blind signalman" if your horse responds to
pressure. Yielding to pressure and release is the core of horse training.
Unless you have some other magic solution.
Bill Kambic
As a matter of fact I do have a magic solution: learn to ride. Then you
will have soft hands, a knowing brain, and you can teach a horse to respond
correctly in classical gear.
QED.
Velvet
> IIRC, Dr. Cook is the owner/principle of the company that makes bitless
> bridles. Does this raise any "red flags" in evaluating his data?
Sure, you should look at the data with caution. But that doesn't change the
facts. I have seen people using more severe bits to gain control to the
point where the horse's mouth was bleeding and the horse was still a
runaway.
> Can bits injure a horse? Yes. So can spurs, saddles, crops, hay, fences,
> dewormers, antibiotics, and just about any other instrumentality, natural
or
> man-made.
You got a little carried away here. Helen was referring to riders mis-using
the bits and causing injuries to horse's mouth.
>
> The bitless bridle is yet another excuse for not learning how to ride.
Oh really? Is that why Karen & David O'Connor use this technique...they
even take a step further and ride brideless. Are you going to question
their ability to ride?
The truth is the exact opposite - you need to be a better rider.
Velvet
> As a matter of fact I do have a magic solution: learn to ride. Then you
> will have soft hands, a knowing brain, and you can teach a horse to
respond
> correctly in classical gear.
You are still not making sense at all. Having "soft hands" is directly
related to responding to pressure. And what makes me a better rider than
you is that I can ride "correctly" without all the "classical gear"
(whatever that means) that you need.
Bill Kambic
> Sure, you should look at the data with caution. But that doesn't change
the
> facts.
We have not yet established any.
I have seen people using more severe bits to gain control to the
> point where the horse's mouth was bleeding and the horse was still a
> runaway.
Me too. Does that condemn the device or the hand holding the device?
>
> > Can bits injure a horse? Yes. So can spurs, saddles, crops, hay,
fences,
> > dewormers, antibiotics, and just about any other instrumentality,
natural
> or
> > man-made.
>
> You got a little carried away here. Helen was referring to riders
mis-using
> the bits and causing injuries to horse's mouth.
I merely note that virtually anthing can be a device for good or evil. To
condemn the device out of hand (except in a very few circumstances) is
intellecutal laziness. Your Dr. Cook and his Swedish devotee condemn the
device instead of the hands that used it. In their case, of course, we
don't have laziness, we have greed. I'm not sure which is worse.
> Oh really? Is that why Karen & David O'Connor use this technique...they
> even take a step further and ride brideless. Are you going to question
> their ability to ride?
No, just the practicality of the application.
I wonder how good their system would be if the Mountain Man from West
Virginia U. (or is it U. of West VA?) were to celebrate a touchdown close
aboard?
That which works for an expert in a controlled environment who has devoted
thousands of hours of effort to its mastery will not necessaily work for the
Mark 1 Mod 0 "Weekend Warrior" on a trail ride during hunting season.
> The truth is the exact opposite - you need to be a better rider.
Most of use do. But my point, which you choose to ignore/evade is that the
average joe can employ average effort and achieve average skill that will
permit them to use average equipment if they want to do so. These
"shortcut" devices might just fine, but let an emergency arise and they
might just find themselves eating dirt and spitting chicklets.
When Og and Mog first started to use the horse for something besides dinner
they used bitless devices and treeless saddles and bare feet. The entire
history of horsemanship is the considered application of man-made devices to
the art to enhance utitlity while prolonging use. We stray from this
formula at our peril, and that of the horse.
snixie
flat leather nose pice with sheepskin lining, the shanks are very short
(about an inch length of metal in total) and they don't have a chain under
the chin, but a rolled piece of leather...
maybe that is not what you guys refer to as a MH?? or maybe there are more
severe sorts?? I have not seen another sort used in Australia, so assumed
that it was what I was using??
"Kris Anderson" <kan...@ephs.org> wrote in message
news:90870af.02110...@posting.google.com...
Ignatzmom
> Ok.. I think that there has been a language issue here.. my hackamore has a
> flat leather nose pice with sheepskin lining, the shanks are very short
> (about an inch length of metal in total) and they don't have a chain under
> the chin, but a rolled piece of leather...
>
>
What you have is definitely a mechanical hackamore -- sometimes they
call it a "jumping hackamore" or an "english Hackamore" in the
catalogues here. It is basically about the mildest of the mechanical
hacks (not as much leverage as the typical western mechanical hack).
Good news, it is not as bad as it could be. Bad news, it is not as
useful for communication as it could be, either. The leverage gets in
the way.
I am not one of the doctrinaire mechanical hack haters out there ..
they do have a use on some horses with the sort of mouths that do not
accept bits (and there ARE horses out there that will not accept bits,
even bits used by the kindest, softest, best hands in the universe.
Horses with abnormally sensitive bars, low palates, thick tongues, and
other mouth issues as a result of previous abuse in a bit -- ones with
severed tongues and partially severed tongues, for instance.) However,
a better communication tool IMO is a plain old sidepull (leather
noseband) or even a bosal of one variety or the other. None of these
use leverage, and all allow for much better lateral flexion etc than a
mechanical hack.
Personally, I would not put a horse with bit issues in a waterford.
Maybe a good french link, maybe a mullen snaffle, but not a waterford.
Some horses have bit issues because the bit moves a lot in their
mouths, and giving them one that is basically constantly in motion is
counterproductive, in most cases.
Lee Z -- still riding, in all sorts of things, both bits and bitless
after all these years
Ignatzmom
How you can tell what sort of rider Bill is without seeing him in
action is beyond me , as it is equally impossible for me (or Bill) to
tell what sort of rider you are.. however, that little thing aside,
there is a lot more to soft hands than responding to pressure. There
is also the implement on the other end of the hands that is creating
(or not) the pressure and where that pressure is being created.
The "Bitless bridle" has lots of pressure points that are indirect
(not felt instantly as a 1:1 ratio in the hands of the rider) and as
such can do a lot more to horse's head in the way of pressure/pain
without the awareness of the rider ( the rider can think that his
hands are light, while the gear does all the dirty work of pressuring
the horse). I have observed this gear, and used it a couple of times
to evaluate it's usefulness. It does what it does to the horse's head
much more strongly than more conventional non leverage gear. You
know, the "classical" stuff Bill is talking about -- non-leverage bits
(snaffles), non leverage bitless things (sidepulls, bosals, cavessons
used for riding, serrettas (sp?)
People who ride habitually in long shank curbs also think they have
light hands ("I don't have to do anything at all besides flex my
fingers to get my horse to do X thing, see how light my hands are!")
when in effect the use of their hands is very "heavy" to the horse
because he feels everything they do a lot more strongly than he would
with no leverage between hand and mouth.
I would not recommend a person use one of the "Bitless bridle" things
on any horse he hoped to communicate with in a clear, precise,
non-threatening, manner. I do, however, put people and horses with
mouth issues in sidepulls fairly frequently.
NO idea if a sidepull would help OP ... it takes eyes on the ground
watching the situation to decide on appropriate experiments in gear.
Lee Z-- still riding and experimenting after all these years.
Helene Franzen
wrote:
Hej.
>IIRC, Dr. Cook is the owner/principle of the company that makes bitless
>bridles. Does this raise any "red flags" in evaluating his data?
Of course it does, but on the other hand he may have had a real
concern and have searched for a better alternative to bits.
>I would also like to know what, if any, financial interst your Swedish vet
>has in this matter.
I don't know but from the indignant tone in that article I doubt it.
Most of it was about what she's seen for herself in her practice and
together with that dentist. The rest was about what evasions rider
errors lead to and the harsh methods many riders use trying to correct
those evasions.
>Can bits injure a horse? Yes. So can spurs, saddles, crops, hay, fences,
>dewormers, antibiotics, and just about any other instrumentality, natural or
>man-made.
As riding errors mostly lead to hard hands bits easily come first.
>The bitless bridle is yet another excuse for not learning how to ride.
Wouldn't a bitless bridle lead to less control and thus to a need for
better schooling of both horse and rider?
At least riding bareback with just a broad leather halter needs a well
schooled horse.
Personally I've never had any trouble with bits, snaffle, french link
or double bridle.
Mvh Helene
snixie
A few people have mentioned a sidepull.. I have not heard of one. If it is
better for my horses, then I am willing to give it a go.. Can someone let me
know what they are and how they work??
thanks
"Ignatzmom" <Smthr...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:df189bc6.02110...@posting.google.com...
Ignatzmom
> The dumb aussie (me) has another language question...
>
> A few people have mentioned a sidepull.. I have not heard of one. If it is
> better for my horses, then I am willing to give it a go.. Can someone let me
> know what they are and how they work??
>
> thanks
Sure -- to see what they look like (forget the ones labeled "half
breed" they are really not what I am talking about) go to
www.saddleshop.com and enter the word "sidepull" in the search -- will
show a bunch of them. The one I really like the best (not necessarily
their design, lots of other companies carry these things) is the
leather noseband one # 12-0992
They work with direct pressure on the nose, no leverage, and are quite
a handy piece of equipment, especially for young horses or those with
mouth/tooth issues.
Linda Tellington-Jones (who I know has visited Oz, and actually seems
to live perpetually in a sort of personal OZ of the Frank Baum sort)
has one that she sells that is called a lindell .. same concept,
higher price with a little different noseband and under jaw
arrangement.
Sidepulls may not be as jazzy/shiny as the mechanical hacks, but are a
lot easier on the horse, and more effective in communicating with him,
IME.
Lee Z -- still riding after all these years
Catja Pafort
[Anine]
> > I borrowed a waterford snaffle today and purposely tried being soft and
> > giving with my hands and not asking for too much bend or collection. He
> > hated it. 15 minutes into the lesson he started snatching and yanking and
> > didn't stop until I gave him all the reins. bending and steering also felt
> > worse, he actively resisted when I asked for a bend to the inside. *sigh*
Obviously not the bit for you. Have you tried him in a bitless bridle?
Find the mildest one you can lay your hands on and observe. The
waterford is anything but a mild bit.
> Go backward to go forward. Back up to just walking around with no
> contact. Just walk. For half an hour. Walk and *maybe* a little
> trot. Keep out of his mouth and face.
Sounds like good advice on the surface. Unfortunately, a lot of horses
with English tack (no weight to bit or reins) will find a loose rein
less than comfortable - there's a lot of movement in the bit some horses
object to, and it's really easier on the horse to keep a sort contact -
think 'weight of the reins.'
> Use your legs to steer, not
> your hands. Use your body to stop, not your hands.
Bending and steering should have nothing to do with the reins, no matter
what level the rider - if you'd ask my horse to bend to the inside by
pulling on the inside rein, he'd object, too, and I don't blame him.
> Let him know "it
> is no big deal if there is a bit in your mouth and you are being
> ridden". Then get off the horse.
Good advice.
> Repeat. Many days. Add some "contact" and if he resists, back down
> *before* he fights - you can't win that fight anyway. Add a little
> and give it back as he gives the direction you desire. Reward his
> slightest effort, and he will continue his efforts to give.
Reasonable advice.
> If all else fails, tie his ass back for 10 minutes on each side (low)
> each day for a few days. Repeat as necessary. He'll get over it.
Advice of the worst sort. If the poster can't work out *why* the horse
reacts as he does, force the horse to submit? What kind of 'training' is
that? It's the kind of 'training' done by someone who hasn't got a clue.
Sometimes the reason for a horse's objections are not where you'd expect
them - pilot error is a good one to watch for, but it could be back
pain, or something completely unrelated. To me, it sounds as if the
rider is at least partly to blame 'taking up a definite contact' is
likely to annoy a good few horses.
Catja
and the Count
Kris Anderson
> [...]
> The horse was wearing a wide
> leather banded hack (fleece lined) with fairly long shanks
> (prolly 4").
As far as mechanical hackamores go, 4" shanks are short.
> The parents (who know exactly zero about horses) of the girl
> riding said horse were standing around kibitzing while she
> rode. She was obviously very nervous, and had a death grip
> on the reins -- the shanks were practically parallel to the
> ground throughout most of the ride
...which means that the curb strap wasn't adjusted short enough.
> Considering all the circumstances, and the horses
> age, she was a good little thing. The parents told me that
> the horse was ridden in a hack in the school program that
> she came from because the owner did not want her mouth ruined.
For one thing you don't train the mouth, you train the brain, so the
whole idea of ruining the mouth is kind of misguided.
> I know little about how to adjust a hack, as I have never
> used one -- only seen them in use and have read a tad bit
> about them. On this one, the noseband was very loose --
> kinda hanging low a few inches above it's nostrils. Didn't
> look right, but what do I know.
The reason you see this so often is because so many people are
incapable of going and finding a shorter headstall when they realize
that the one they have isn't going to adjust short enough.
> The parents asked me if I
> knew why the horse was tossing it's head, and I explained to
> them that I didn't know shit from shinola about hacks, but
> my understanding was that they should be ridden with a
> looped rein and very little contact, as they apply pressure
> to the nose and poll. I suggested to the girl (as she said
> she had never ridden in one, and was riding as if it were a
> non-leverage bit) that she should probably have someone give
> her a few lessons and show her how to use it or she should
> use a bit (horse has used a bit before, no problem).
I use the MH about the same way I'd use any bit, which means that if
I'm cruising along out on trail my reins are loose and I neck rein
more often than not, but if I need to I can take the slack out and
collect up and ride just as I would in a snaffle or a double bridle.
I think there's a pic of the MH I use at:
http://duende.dhs.org/kris/charliehack.jpg
The leather noseband that came with it rotted out years ago so I wove
a browband through the slots on the metal side pieces, and that
actually ended up making the side pieces lie flatter. I also switched
to a regular english style curb chain with hooks, because that makes
it a lot easier to get the hack on and adjust it, but it works
basically the same way it did when I bought it.
Franks, D. A. (Deborah)
>
> The bitless bridle is yet another excuse for not learning how to ride.
>
I have to add that is IS rather useful on a horse whom was ridden
improperly
with hash hands by people who subscribed to the bigger bit theory, then
deciding- to be gentle - place the horse in a MH.
I have a 16 year old QH I purchased about a year ago who's tong
is missing a pretty good chunk where the bit would lay. I took about 9
months of not placing anything in his mouth to get him to relax about
things around his head. A friend gave me a "bitless bridle" that he had
made, looks quite a bit like the one Dr. Cook has.
He now goes in a D-ring snaffle or bb rig or nothing on his
head at all - don't seam to matter any more.
I have never used a side pull. Might be something to try
just to see what it is like.
Seams to many people, the "get rid of all bits" types
never actually LOOK at the horse in front of them and
their actions on/around that horse.
Deb
--
The opinions expressed in the article are the opinions
of the author, not of Ford Motor Company.