pony club or 4h?
cara
I'm thinking of signing my 6 y/o daughter up with either a local pony
club or 4-h group. Not having had any experience with either one I'm
curious as to whether anyone has had any positive or negative
experiences or recommendations to share with me.
Thanks,
Cara
www.two-horse.com
Donna Pattee
Don't know where you are located, but in Colorado a child must be 8-years-old
as of Jan 1 to be signed up as a regular, competing 4-H member. I would
guess that Pony Club is similar. Until your child can become a member, it's
probably a good idea to check out both 4-H and Pony Club in your area. In
our area, the kids who want to do mostly jumping, dressage, or eventing
will prefer Pony Club. Those who want to do western, hunt seat eq and
pleasure classes will choose 4-H. We also have saddle clubs for the kids
who want to do gymkhana and Little Britches for rodeo kids.
Conmrapony
club is much better. The pony clubs must meet a certain standard, or they can
lose their pony club affiliation.
4H has no such rules. I have seen several 4 H groups whose leaders knew
absolutely nothing, and not only were the kids not learning, they were horribly
unsafe.
There are good 4H groups, don't get me wrong, but I do believe the pony club
groups are consistantly better. I would check out both in your area, and then
make a decision.
Mary McHugh
Both are good organizations but for both, a LOT depends on the local
chapter/club. Some are competetive, others are not even worth
attending. Of course, pony club is only for the hunt seat crowd and 4-H
is for all. I'd go sit in on some meetings and attend some of the
activities and see which one suits your or your daughter's fancy better.
I personally am a graduate of a fabulous 4-H program. Pony club was not
available to me since I didn't have a truck or trailer to bring my horse
to the mounted meetings.
Mary
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>Hi,
>I'm thinking of signing my 6 y/o daughter up with either a local pony
>club or 4-h group. Not having had any experience with either one I'm
>curious as to whether anyone has had any positive or negative
>experiences or recommendations to share with me.
6 years old is young for 4-H, they don't take kids in horse that young
(Adventurers) at least around here.
As for Pony Club vs 4-H....well, it depends upon what you want to do.
I think PC is more oriented toward hunt seat while 4-H is pretty wide
open.
jrw
Texas rider
My daughter has been pony clubbing since she was 9. She's now almost
17. I would recommend it. However, 6 is awful young for PC. We
usually don't take them until they are about 8. They have to be
pretty self-reliant. Difficult when they are so young. We also did
4H, but got substantially better instruction and training through
USPC. The 4H here just used whatever parents were in the club to
teach. They did not try and get real trainers, like pony club did.
There is a big difference.
CG
Kris Carroll
competitions and, usually, a regular show circuit in the summer months.
I'd say PC is more akin to eventing than hunt seat or at least old
fashioned classic and conservative field hunting. PC emphasis on kids do
it themselves, hands-off parents is commendable. 4H covers all riding
disciplines.
I've heard good and bad about both orgs from hundreds/thousands of kid in
JRJ - conclusion: local leadership makes or breaks a club.
You're welcome to join JRJ mail list and ask the kids yourself
http://www.horse-country.com/jriders/
They love to voice their opinions and rarely hold back. :)
K
Bill Kambic
> Hi,
> I'm thinking of signing my 6 y/o daughter up with either a local pony
> club or 4-h group. Not having had any experience with either one I'm
> curious as to whether anyone has had any positive or negative
> experiences or recommendations to share with me.
PC is, obviously, horse oriented. I don't know the minimum age. Beyond
having used the books in our 4H horse program I don't know more than that
about PC.
4H is not in the equine training business, it is in the youth development
business. It uses farm animals (and photography and bread baking and
sewing and lots of other tools) to help kids develop strong moral and
ethical character.
As between the two, I would give 4H the nod. They have a VERY broad
based set of programs that can appeal to almost any interest a kid can
have. At this age I'm not sure that 4H has much available, but a call to
your county extension agent will get you pointed in the right direction.
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I was our county 4H Middle
Management Coordinator (worked with adult program leaders) for 4 years
and a state officer for one. I have not been active with the program for
the last couple of years.
Texas rider
In Pony Club, I believe I have read of kids as young as 4 in the club,
and one club in our region has members as young as 5. However, there
is little these tiny tots can actually do, so you may want to wait a
few years. It is really good for the middle school and high school
age group. As for the sports PC does, our club has done the following
in the past few years:
eventing, show jumping, dressage, polocrosse, trailriding, mounted
games, foxhunting and vaulting. The club is also introducing
competitive trail riding this year but does not do any western riding,
but has brought in natural horsemanship trainers to do demonstrations
and clinics. Expect whatever group you get into, though, to have some
problems with people getting along with each other. It can be kind of
amazing.
Carol G
Jennifer
>We have both pony clubs and 4 H clubs in my area. I'd have to say the pony
club is much better. >
being from the same neighborhood, I'd have to agree. 4H has little to no
criteria and no standards. I wish there was a "western" pony club. My kid
would be in it in a flash.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Kris Carroll
> Expect whatever group you get into, though, to have some
> problems with people getting along with each other. It can be kind of
> amazing.
As someone in the vizsla group pointed out, politics happen even in church
groups. :)
alwz...@aol.comnospamo (Jennifer)
> I wish there was a "western" pony club. My kid
> would be in it in a flash.
You could start one yourself <vbg> It's a good idea waiting to happen.
K - waiting for the dog to finish watering bushes
Eileen Morgan
Mary McHugh <trollb...@notroll.com> wrote in message
news:3B8EA850...@notroll.com...
> Of course, pony club is only for the hunt seat crowd and 4-H
> is for all.
Don't you mean eventing???
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
Mary McHugh
Not necessarily. When I said hunt seat, I meant those that jump (as in
hunt seat, saddle seat, western etc.). I didn't think PC restricted
their membership to eventing kids only. ;-) I know of PC kids who do the
hunters and gasp, equitation.
Mary
Lois Hellebust
My daughter belongs to both. As mentioned in other posts they tend towards
different kinds of riding. Both organizations are probably as good or bad
as the persons involved. They both have some good points. So far we haven't
felt the need to choose one over the other. Instead prefer to experience
the advantages of each. My daughter has a nice pony that can be ridden in
both disciplines (western & english). I think she gains by being able to do
both. Perhaps I would feel differently about it I were out to train a
future Olympic star or wanted her to emphasize and train exclusively in one
area. I just want her to be well rounded and enjoy riding. I figure any
ribbons or awards are just minor frosting on the cake. Anyway, that's my
take on it.
Good Luck,
Lois
"cara" <pnhs...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:15b7db62.01083...@posting.google.com...
Joel B Levin
Mary McHugh <trollb...@notroll.com> wrote:
}Eileen Morgan wrote:
}> Mary McHugh <trollb...@notroll.com> wrote in message
}> news:3B8EA850...@notroll.com...
}> > Of course, pony club is only for the hunt seat crowd and 4-H
}> > is for all.
}>
}> Don't you mean eventing???
}
}hunt seat, saddle seat, western etc.).
I think to be as all-inclusive as you mean to be (and I think I knew what you
meant the first time) you have to just call it "English" riding to distinguish
it from "Western". For many people (probably mostly Western-only riders),
"English" means "not Western" and so includes forms of riding like saddle seat
and gaited horses, since they mostly all use little saddles and funny clothes,
i.e. not-jeans.
/JBL
--
Nets: levin at bbn.com | /"\
or jbl at levin.mv.com | \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
pots: (617)873-3463 | X AGAINST HTML MAIL
ARS: KD1ON | / \ AND POSTINGS
Donna Pattee
several meetings and observe what happens at each. With a 6-year-old kid,
the mom in question should have plenty of time to do this - or does Pony
Club take kids that young?
Here in Boulder County we have a Horse Leaders Council that is very
active, and all 4-H horse clubs participate in it. Many other counties
in Colorado have no safety rules or show guidelines.
I've heard both good and bad about local Pony Club chapters, so I don't
think it's possible to state generically (sp?) that one is better than
the other.
>
>
>
>
>Jennifer
>alwz...@aol.com
Ken Brown
When everyone is discussing Pony Club, is this Pony of the Americas to
which you are referring?
If it is POA, then I might have a very nice in-road to have ideas heard -
the President of the Farm Bureau where I am on the Board of Directors just
happens to be the Executive Director of POA.
Want anything passed along? Sid and I talk all the time.
--
-----------------------------------
Those of you that think you know
everything about horses really annoy
the hell out of us that know we don't.
Donna Pattee
OTOH, our 4-H club has a different professional trainer at every riding
meeting during the summer. We also have several leaders/parents who
are qualified to teach riding and who are themselves professional trainers.
You just can't make blanket statements about Pony Club vs. 4-H. Check
them out, and see which works better for you.
Donna Pattee
Kris Carroll <knospam...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>PC has knowdown and fun days and rallies, 4H has horse bowl and juding
>competitions and, usually, a regular show circuit in the summer months.
>
>I'd say PC is more akin to eventing than hunt seat or at least old
>fashioned classic and conservative field hunting. PC emphasis on kids do
>it themselves, hands-off parents is commendable. 4H covers all riding
>disciplines.
>
>I've heard good and bad about both orgs from hundreds/thousands of kid in
>JRJ - conclusion: local leadership makes or breaks a club.
Exactly! We started out with the 4-H club that was based at the ranch where
we boarded our horses. It wasn't bad, but it was clear it wasn't the best
for my daughter. We went to several meetings of different clubs, talked to
all the club leaders and then made our decision. We have about 10-12 horse
4-H clubs in Boulder County, and all are very different in their training
philosophies, riding goals and membership.
Eileen Morgan
> Not necessarily. When I said hunt seat, I meant those that jump (as in
> hunt seat, saddle seat, western etc.). I didn't think PC restricted
> their membership to eventing kids only. ;-) I know of PC kids who do the
> hunters and gasp, equitation.
I was never in Pony Club--I was in 4-H and we had no local PC that I ever
found. I guess I was thinking that their levels seem to correspond to the
eventing basics and three phase thing, so it seemed to be it was geared
towards combined training. I would not think that would *limit* you to
eventing, but I know as a kid in 4-H nothing we did was really a good basis
for my current sport.
I do think that like all local branches of a major organization, local
leaders are what makes the difference to the quality of the club. And you
get politics no matter what you do.
Kris Carroll
> Mary McHugh <trollb...@notroll.com> wrote in message
> news:3B8EA850...@notroll.com...
>
> > Of course, pony club is only for the hunt seat crowd and 4-H
> > is for all.
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net> wrote:
> Don't you mean eventing???
Point of order! fox hunters started pony club. Real hunt seat IOW.
K
Texas rider
> cara wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I'm thinking of signing my 6 y/o daughter up with either a local pony
> > club or 4-h group. Not having had any experience with either one I'm
> > curious as to whether anyone has had any positive or negative
> > experiences or recommendations to share with me.
>
> PC is, obviously, horse oriented. I don't know the minimum age. Beyond
> having used the books in our 4H horse program I don't know more than that
> about PC.
>
> 4H is not in the equine training business, it is in the youth development
> business. It uses farm animals (and photography and bread baking and
> sewing and lots of other tools) to help kids develop strong moral and
> ethical character.
>
> As between the two, I would give 4H the nod. They have a VERY broad
> based set of programs that can appeal to almost any interest a kid can
> have. At this age I'm not sure that 4H has much available, but a call to
> your county extension agent will get you pointed in the right direction.
When my daughter was in 4H (about 7 or 8 years ago) the minimum age
here was third grade, I think. I remember they did have some kind of
group for the younger siblings, though.
USPC also is in the business of building strong adults. If you look
at the org's mission statement, it says so. They just use horses (and
only horses) to do it. 4H teaches more diverse things, as Bill said,
so if one kid wants to learn photography she can do that and the other
wants to raise a steer she can do that. One advantage, a bit down the
line, that 4H has that PC does not, is the scholarship program. Here
in Texas, the kids earn some really hefty amounts of cash-- sometimes
up to $50,000 for their efforts, usually with steers. In PC, there is
really nothing like that, except a few private schools offer
scholarships to members.
Either way, if it is a good club, your child will get out of it what
you put into it.
Carol G
Texas rider
Yes, she means eventing. Pony Clubbers don't compete in hunters (at
least not through any club sponsored events). They even get a bit
upset if someone uses the seat used in showing hunters. They want a
deeper seat than that.
Carol G
Madeline Rockwell
"Texas rider" <gros...@bga.com> wrote in message
news:f2f1851.01083...@posting.google.com...
As someone stated earlier, Pony Club was originally conceived in England
and imported in the mid-'50's to the states by foxhunters. It seems to have
morphed into mainly eventing relatively recently. Used to be they showed,
hunted, evented, drove, dabbled in polo, gymkhanas. All types or horse
activities.
madeline
( Whose mother who was part of that original expedition fetching back the
first pony club manuals to the colonies)
Susan Dangar
"Kris Carroll" <knospam...@halcyon.com> wrote in message
news:knospamcarroll-...@192.168.1.101...
Ya know what Kris, I think you're absolutely right. Hell, I'm in. OK, now
who wants to help draft guidelines?
Sounds like a great idea to me too.
Susan Dangar
Kris Carroll
> > > I wish there was a "western" pony club. My kid
> > > would be in it in a flash.
"Kris Carroll" <knospam...@halcyon.com> wrote in message
> > You could start one yourself <vbg> It's a good idea waiting to happen.
"Susan Dangar" <vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote:
> Ya know what Kris, I think you're absolutely right. Hell, I'm in. OK, now
> who wants to help draft guidelines?
>
> Sounds like a great idea to me too.
Feel free to make use of horse-country.com in any way you like; I have
more than a few kids underfoot. HC Gymkhana Interactive and Cyberbarn
games are already a great (4H, PC, Scouts) club resource. There'll be
lots more when the new business plan hits the streets - any minute now
K
Lou
Interesting.....I just talked to a girl who took the A test. She stated
that some
of the examiners, being from the east coast, seemed to be favoring those
that rode
hunt seat as opposed to "balanced seat" that Pony Club seems to advocate.
Unfortunately she did not rate "A" so maybe there was some bias there.Then
again...
Lou W
Liz
>at the org's mission statement, it says so. They just use horses (and
>only horses) to do it.
I thought Pony Club had some sort of mult-discipline stuff for kids
(riding+swimming+shooting+something else I forget what)?
MJ McHugh
> Yes, she means eventing. Pony Clubbers don't compete in hunters (at
No, I didn't. And yes, Pony Clubbers around here compete in the hunters and jumpers. Just because
they're in Pony Club doesn't mean they can't show hunters, eq, or jumpers.
What I originally meant was that your child should be able to jump (i.e. ride hunt seat) if she wants
to participate in Pony Club.
Mary
Texas rider
Yes, that sport is tetratholon. The other thing is cross country
running. It is just like the Olympic sport of pentatholon without the
fencing. One of our club members got into it a few years ago when she
had a Russian pentatholete for an instructor in college. At the
moment, pentatholon is only a men's sport at the Olympics, but in USPC
it is open to both genders, but they do not compete against each
other. It is very popular with the boys, but difficult to get the
training to do 4 sports at once.
If your child at some point desires to be an Olympic rider, she
probably ought to do PC since the majority of the USET were once pony
clubbers, particularly in eventing and dressage. It is almost the only
way to get enough training to progress that high. Michael Matz, Bruce
Davidson, Michelle Gibson, Julie Black, Ralph Smith, the
O'Connors--and the list goes on.
CG
Lou
"Liz" <foxy...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20010901014241...@mb-cc.aol.com...
Polocross, Vaulting, Tetrathalon ( riding shooting etc.), fox hunting
mounted games, CT , Knowdown ( knowlege competitions). In my
area the emphasis is on CT. In other areas , so I've heard, Clubs may
choose to concentrate more on only one of the above formats.
Lou
Kris Carroll
> Polocross, Vaulting, Tetrathalon ( riding shooting etc.), fox hunting
> mounted games, CT , Knowdown ( knowlege competitions). In my
> area the emphasis is on CT. In other areas , so I've heard, Clubs may
> choose to concentrate more on only one of the above formats.
Don't most hunt clubs have a PC rep, and welcome a Pony Clubber, alone or
as a group, offer assistance in the field? Bainbridge Is, WA kids do CT,
light on dressage. Woodbrook Hunt near Ft Lewis, Lori Lennox is
Woodbrook's Pony Club Representative. Visit
http://www.horse-country.com/hunt/woodbrook.html for contact info.
Hey Sue, what you gonna call the new Western PC? Saddle Club ... Gymkhana
Club? If you're smart you'll corral Jessica as Board member and USPC
liason. :)
IMO first guideline/rule should be helmets are required for participation.
K
AdrienneBr
>http://www.horse-country.com/jriders/
>They love to voice their opinions and rarely hold back. :)
Here ya go from one of Kris' Junior Riders...
When I was 13 my mom had me in both 4-H and Pony Club. Due to finances we had
to decide on one after a couple weeks. I ended up quitting 4-H and doing Pony
Club for over two years until the relationship between Pony Club and I died in
a fiery crash..
As you can tell, I absolutely regret that decision. I am going to not try to
bash my Pony clubs (I tried two) but I am going to say that I cannot stop being
impressed by what goes on in good 4-H clubs and slightly perturbed in what I
see in Pony Clubs:).
Next time you are at your State Fair check out some of the Agriculture projects
done by 4-H members. I am always absolutely blown away. Knowdown is nothing
compared to some of the work these kids are encouraged to do. I can say this
because I was the Junior 'D' level Knowdown Chicago-area champion in 1995
<G>... and it wasn't anything I didn't know (and my DC didn't want to rate me
because they knew they could kill in the 'D' levels with me there...) (and no,
I didn't go to nationals, we couldn't afford it)
I DO see a lot of politics going on at 4-H shows though, but it was just as bad
as what I got at our PCs mounted meetings. I needed a new horse, I needed a new
trailer, I needed a new saddle, I needed new breeches, I needed tall boots (I
was 13! and growing!)... at least in 4-H they don't *tell* you that <G>... But
I have to say, even in my rather scary area, a friend of mine (who I drilled in
english riding) got some great encouragement and several blue ribbons even
though she didn't have a coat or tall boots... or anything other than a crazy
little arab at the 4-H County Fair show:)
Heck, after my pony club experiences I showed *hunters* with my little arab
mare and got a lot less prejudice than I got from Pony Club:) And the 'she'll
never jump' comments ::sigh:: the good old days... nothing like a mix between
adolescence, puberty, and people actually telling you that you are out of
place:)
~Adrienne
Susan Dangar
Ya know, I've kinda been wondering the same thing. I'm sure USPC would have
a problem with the use of Pony Club. I'm open for suggestions. I don't
Gymkhana Club really conveys what I have in mind either. I'm really
thinking more about turning out horsemen than competitors. Emphasis on
quality cross-training, eq., trail, horsemanship, possibly reining and cow
work.
I'm serious as a heart-attack about this. I think the time has come. I
spent most of the night doing outlines of things to do. Certainly not a
one-person job. I'd love input from all fronts, specific areas:
a. establishing training levels ala Pony Club.
b. establishing trainer/instructor certification process
c. establishing Club hierarchy. Officers, board of directors,
incorporation, 501c status? I'd LOVE for Jessica to provide input.
Absolutely. I'd really like to establish a working relationship with USPC.
No sense in re-inventing the wheel.
I'm going to join the JRJ list and get input from the kids. I agree with
you that they'll be a most valuable resource. I was a 4-H kid, and there
are some phenomenal 4-H groups out there, but there is no standardization, I
think that would be a good thing. I also intend to talk to some of the
breed organizations. Their support would be helpful.
If anyone else is interested in pursuing this, I'd like to hear from y'all.
Kris, I appreciate your offer to use horse-country games and info. That's a
very kind offer. I'm open to input.
> IMO first guideline/rule should be helmets are required for participation.
Yes, ma'am. Doing so might be a step for 4-H and other Western groups to
reciprocate.
Susan Dangar
P&M
Wendy
> Ya know, I've kinda been wondering the same thing. I'm sure
> USPC would have
> a problem with the use of Pony Club. I'm open for
> suggestions.
I'm sure they would, since the "Old People's Pony Club" quickly
turned into the "Old People's Riding Club." :)
http://www.oldpeoplesridingclub.org/
Perhaps something with Riding or Horsemanship in the name, or
even Equine if you don't want to discriminate against the
long-eared crowd.
--
Wendy in Chandler, AZ
http://members.home.com/wendywds
wendywds ** at ** home ** dot ** com
Kris Carroll
> Heck, after my pony club experiences I showed *hunters* with my little arab
> mare and got a lot less prejudice than I got from Pony Club:) And the 'she'll
> never jump' comments ::sigh:: the good old days... nothing like a mix between
> adolescence, puberty, and people actually telling you that you are out of
> place:)
At JRJ you have someone like Doc Newell as a bad example (showing arabs
hunters) and we rarely say don't go for it - unless you're using an MH on
a 3yo or riding without a helmet. ;) Good post A.
K
John Hasler
> I'm really thinking more about turning out horsemen than competitors.
> Emphasis on quality cross-training, eq., trail, horsemanship, possibly
> reining and cow work.
> No sense in re-inventing the wheel.
Then why not just take over the WSCA? Is that just an upper-midwest thing?
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Shelia is a Bitch
Inaccurate/inapplicable;
fallacious regardless.
> hunted, evented, drove, dabbled in polo, gymkhanas. All types or horse
> activities.
>
> madeline
> ( Whose mother who was part of that original expedition fetching back the
> first pony club manuals to the colonies)
you were hatched
OFF TOPIC BITCH
Inaccurate/inapplicable;
fallacious regardless.
Caroline Muller
<vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote:
>I'm serious as a heart-attack about this. I think the time has come. I
>spent most of the night doing outlines of things to do. Certainly not a
>one-person job. I'd love input from all fronts, specific areas:
>a. establishing training levels ala Pony Club.
>b. establishing trainer/instructor certification process
>c. establishing Club hierarchy. Officers, board of directors,
>incorporation, 501c status? I'd LOVE for Jessica to provide input.
>Absolutely. I'd really like to establish a working relationship with USPC.
>No sense in re-inventing the wheel.
>
>I'm going to join the JRJ list and get input from the kids. I agree with
>you that they'll be a most valuable resource. I was a 4-H kid, and there
>are some phenomenal 4-H groups out there, but there is no standardization, I
>think that would be a good thing. I also intend to talk to some of the
>breed organizations. Their support would be helpful.
>
>If anyone else is interested in pursuing this, I'd like to hear from y'all.
>Kris, I appreciate your offer to use horse-country games and info. That's a
>very kind offer. I'm open to input.
>
>> IMO first guideline/rule should be helmets are required for participation.
>
>Yes, ma'am. Doing so might be a step for 4-H and other Western groups to
>reciprocate.
>
>Susan Dangar
>P&M
>
>
Susan,
I am a product of BOTH 4-H and PC. I would love to help you in
this effort. I just had a terrible experience with a horse-crazy
child, and would love to do something to help correct problems that
occur out "there" in the big old world. Several years ago, my neighbor
decided to start a 4-H group, and because I had done the 4-H thing as
a youngster, I said I would help. I work swing shifts, so I wasn't
willing (and didn't have the TIME) to do more than be a "helper". We
opened the group up to kids that didn't have their own horses (in the
spirit that even if you don't own one, you can still LEARN about
them). One of the kids that didn't have a horse when we had the group
(it was unfortunatly short-lived... my neighbor didn't want to
continue it) Died a couple of days ago. She was riding a two-YO
without a helmet, and they found her at the side of the road. We
discussed helmets, watched helmet use video's, discussed the "green on
green" thing, and dedicated 4-5 meetings to horse safety out of about
12 total meetings (safety from the ground up). I feel terriable about
this. I lost track of this child after my neighbor disbanded the
group, but I can't help but feel that if I had done a little more,
this child would be safe and happy now (with an eighteen YO "been
there, done that" horse).
To be frank, the 4-H program is piecemeal good or bad. You can
get alot out of the program, but without the state support of the
program, it has really gone downhill. For instance: Virginia (where I
live) used to have a very strong 4-H horse program, but since the
state unfunded (is that a word?) the state horse specialist (the last
man to have this job was the man who had it when I was a teenager, and
they didn't fill his position when he retired ... BTW his name was
Arden Huff, and he was a wonderful guy!), the horse program has really
gone downhill. The whole program now rests on the heads of whoever is
the sponser of the local program.
PC has it's own problems. My experience with PC was long. I
started riding under the PC envelope. The trouble with the Pony Club
is its exclusivity, and its narrow focus. Kids who don't ride
hunters/eventers/whatever have NO PLACE. Not only that, but if I
hadn't had a well-off friend who rallied with me, I couldn't have
afforded it. My friend supplied the team supplies. Even if all of the
rest of us had pooled our money, we wouldn't have been able to afford
all of the required items to field a team at a ralley (competitivly).
This is not to say that 4-H is without its exclusivity faults.
try showing a appendix QH at the state show! What? The judge LOOK at
you?.....the $30,000 TB looks SO much better (OK...maybe that is a
foible of living in VA... where the DuPonts hunt!.. and yes...i did
meet Mrs. Joan DuPont... she ran a horse judging clinic/compitition at
Upperville every year when I was judging).
Anyway... I agree that there has to be a better way. I know
that people who read this NG have heard time and time again about
safety issues. Somehow, basics are still not getting to the great
"unhorsed" masses. There has to be a better way. Count me in, Susan
Caroline Muller
Susan Dangar
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:87sne6s...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> Susan Dangar writes:
> > I'm really thinking more about turning out horsemen than competitors.
> > Emphasis on quality cross-training, eq., trail, horsemanship, possibly
> > reining and cow work.
> > ...
> > No sense in re-inventing the wheel.
>
> Then why not just take over the WSCA? Is that just an upper-midwest
thing?
WSCA? Not familiar with this organization.
Susan Dangar
Kris Anderson
>
> [....]
> Perhaps something with Riding or Horsemanship in the name, or
> even Equine if you don't want to discriminate against the
> long-eared crowd.
I don't think the long eared crowd is easily offended. We're used to
being excluded, so if they'll let us in we'll be there no matter what
it's called.
Or at least up here where the closest donkey and mule shows are at
least 4 hours away, that's the way it works.
Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
Texas rider
> Don't most hunt clubs have a PC rep, and welcome a Pony Clubber, alone or
> as a group, offer assistance in the field? Bainbridge Is, WA kids do CT,
> light on dressage. Woodbrook Hunt near Ft Lewis, Lori Lennox is
> Woodbrook's Pony Club Representative. Visit
> http://www.horse-country.com/hunt/woodbrook.html for contact inf
>
> K
Kris, I have been the foxhunting coordinator for our region (USPC).
Some of the clubs in the east do have a hunt affiliated with it, but
probably the vast majority of pony clubbers have never hunted and
probably never will. For it to be available, someone has to be both a
hunt member and a PC parent and has to make quite an effort for the
two groups to interact. Last year our horse situation wasn't good and
I didn't hunt. Guess what, nobody came to the PC hunt. The hunt was
pretty bummed out but it takes someone out there promoting it to the
kids. The year before we had a big weekend clinic and hunt for both
the PC people and whoever in the area wanted to come. It was a great
success. It can be hard getting them together, though. In our area,
as in many in the west, there aren't many hunts so driving to one
takes a long time and gets expensive with hotels, overnight stabling
and capping fees. Then, the people running the hunt have to agree not
to freak out the visitors by not going too fast. Sometimes they
haven't done that. The kids need to be D2 with DC permission or D3 to
be able to really be safe enough, but always we have some kids out
there that somehow got in the field that were D1s or low D2s. That
gets very dangerous. Finally, selling foxhunting, I've found out is a
hard sell to most people since it is hard riding. The PCers can
usually do fine, but it scares off a lot of people, and often the
parents who ride and accompany the kids don't ride well enough to be
doing it. USPC is considering taking it out of the program, although
I expect they will not since the club was founded on teaching kids to
hunt.
If anyone reading this does have the opportunity to get the kids
hunting, I would encourage them to do so. My daughter started hunting
through PC and hunt at age 9 and it made her a very good, brave rider.
Of all the equestrian sports she done in PC, foxhunting is far and
away her favorite. One girl, I remember, was heard saying that it left
eventing in the dust, it was so much fun.
The best way to start them is get them to a hunter pace.
Carol G
Texas rider
Susan, why not just start a PC, and add your western training to the
mix? Its hard to start one of these clubs from scratch, but you'll
have the standards, you'll have the information, you'll get help from
the region, etc. You can have your club do both english and western.
Our club does a little western stuff but in the beginning it isn't
going to make much difference. Riding is riding as one of our
instructors always says. Horsemanship is the same for any horse. We
are going to do a competitive trail clinic this year, and probably
some training clinics for the older kids. To start a PC it takes 5
families and $375 to buy into the program. Insurance is provided
through membership.
PCs can vary from place to place, too. When our kids were just
getting in, at one point all the kids were riding horses at least 15
years old up to over 30. As they get older they learn to train their
own. Many of the kids ride grade horses, many keep them in their back
yards. Most kids do other things outside of the club with their
horses-- some show hunters, some western events, some foxhunt, most
everyone trailrides, some play polocrosse, etc.
You could also look at the stuff we are doing with the Old people's
club and look at their standards for you club. It is both english and
western. You can get an idea at grosvenrs.com/oprc.htm. There is a
link to the national site with their standards, although they were
written for adults and are much easier than the standards for USPC.
CG
Texas rider
> club and look at their standards for you club. It is both english and
> western. You can get an idea at grosvenrs.com/oprc.htm. There is a
> link to the national site with their standards, although they were
> written for adults and are much easier than the standards for USPC.
> CG
I got the link wrong, for our old people's riding club
http://www.grosvenors.com/oprc.htm
The standards for the national organization are on the main web site,
which is linked from ours. There are both jumping and non-jumping
standards. If you want to start an independent organization those
standards might be helpful. In regard to a USPC chapter, be aware that
just because someone can actually do what is on the list it doesn't
mean that person will pass the rating for that part of the test. The
candidate must prove to the examiner that he/she can do it to
standards. This requires someone who is an experienced examiner in the
upper levels to make the call as someone unfamiliar with PC won't know
exactly what the difference in the seat of a D2 and a D3 or a C1 is,
so it would be hard to know if someone rode to standards or not.
Ratings are done locally until C2, but above that it becomes a
regional or national exam. D1 can be done by the DC, but since you
might be starting a new club, you'd need to bring in someone from the
region to help you rate between D2 to C1. An active pony clubber can
do some of the lower levels or you can get another DC or an RS to do
it for you. That way, you don't take the heat if someone fails the
rating, the examiner does. At the higher levels an examiner must be
certified to rate, so there aren't a whole lot of people in the
country who can do it. Most upper level raters were upper level
members themselves.
CG
Susan Dangar
> "Susan Dangar" <vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:<tp33evd...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Kris Carroll" <knospam...@halcyon.com> wrote in message
> > news:knospamcarroll-...@192.168.1.101...
> > > "Lou" <sail...@home.com> wrote:
> > > > http://www.horse-country.com/hunt/woodbrook.html for contact info.
snip
I'm open for suggestions. I don't
> > Gymkhana Club really conveys what I have in mind either. I'm really
> > thinking more about turning out horsemen than competitors. Emphasis on
> > quality cross-training, eq., trail, horsemanship, possibly reining and
cow
> > work.
I'd really like to establish a working relationship with USPC.
> > No sense in re-inventing the wheel.
> > If anyone else is interested in pursuing this, I'd like to hear from
y'all.
> > Kris, I appreciate your offer to use horse-country games and info.
That's a
> > very kind offer. I'm open to input.
> >
> > > IMO first guideline/rule should be helmets are required for
participation.
> >
> > Yes, ma'am. Doing so might be a step for 4-H and other Western groups
to
> > reciprocate.
> >
> > Susan Dangar
> > P&M
>
> Susan, why not just start a PC, and add your western training to the
> mix?
Primarily because at some point the training will conflict. Additionally,
because IMO, the Western riders need their own organization. Pony Club is a
fine organization, but it is expensive. I've got something a little more
egalitarian in mind. I think the Foundation QH people are on the right
track in that they place more emphasis on performance than tack. No silver,
no sequins.
It's been my experience that it's somewhat easier to make the transformation
from Western to English, for both horse and rider than the other way around.
YMMV. Therefore, those with an interest in doing both, given the proper
foundation, they should be able to do both or either with equal ease.
Its hard to start one of these clubs from scratch,
Yep, I expect it will be, but worth the effort, I think. :-)
but you'll
> have the standards, you'll have the information, you'll get help from
> the region, etc. You can have your club do both english
as I said, I don't want to re-invent the wheel. In my area, frankly I don't
think there is much interest in English riding and there are already many
opportunities available for those that do have such an interest. I'm more
interested in those that don't have such a well-defined training program for
the western horse and rider.
English or Western, much of the available training is very discipline
specific. I'm really thinking more of turning out somewhat more versatile
horsemen. As has been discussed often in this forum, the number of trainers
that are skilled to train for multiple disciplines are becoming a rarity,
perhaps, this may be the way to overcome that trend. Providing options.
> Our club does a little western stuff but in the beginning it isn't
> going to make much difference. Riding is riding as one of our
> instructors always says. Horsemanship is the same for any horse.
Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact with
one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get his
front end back on the ground. Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in
Dressage. For those that have never ridden a truly broke Western horse, the
aids are extremely light by comparison.
We
> are going to do a competitive trail clinic this year, and probably
> some training clinics for the older kids. To start a PC it takes 5
> families and $375 to buy into the program. Insurance is provided
> through membership.
An excellent program. I intend to look into establishing a similar program.
> PCs can vary from place to place, too. When our kids were just
> getting in, at one point all the kids were riding horses at least 15
> years old up to over 30. As they get older they learn to train their
> own. Many of the kids ride grade horses, many keep them in their back
> yards. Most kids do other things outside of the club with their
> horses-- some show hunters, some western events, some foxhunt, most
> everyone trailrides, some play polocrosse, etc.
It is my hope to establish a board of directors with representation from all
the Western disciplines. As to judges and instructors, I've drafted a
letter to AQHA, seeking their involvement. And, I intend to contact other
breed organizations. There are many, far more qualified than I, to address
issues such as training, judging and instructor qualifications. Providing I
am able to gain outside assistance in these areas, I think this idea can
fly.
There is alot of development still to be done. I am getting some very
positive feedback from Kris's JRJ kids. Geez, they're a sharp bunch. :-)
When I was involved with the horse program at the Y camp, many of the horses
we used were loaners or donated to the program. This is just one other
avenue that I need to pursue further.
Once my ducks are a little more in a row, I'll put up a web site where I can
put updated status reports. I'm still working on a name, so far I'm leaning
toward Western Young Riders Association.
Susan Dangar
Eileen Morgan
> Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact with
> one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get
his
> front end back on the ground. Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in
> Dressage. For those that have never ridden a truly broke Western horse,
the
> aids are extremely light by comparison.
How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is? I've swapped
several horses over and never had a problem introducing contact and leg aids
as appropriate to the new job. I'm not talking bad examples of riding and
training, by the by, and I am assuming you are not comparing good western
style riding to bad English style riding either. If you are, it's apples and
oranges and you might as well not even bother doing the comparison at all.
I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my area,
although I am sure they are around. Out here, the vast majority of them are
ridden by weekend warriors who want something to hang on to with the saddle
horn. That and the very frightening 4-H crowd who do western classes and
Games. I would no more use that as an example of a typical western attitude
towards riding and training than I would jump out of a perfectly good
airplane. :) I've not been on one who had any real suppleness, who you could
use subtle leg and seat cues with, or which had any kind of a mouth to speak
of (from bad hands and curb bits). I *did* ride a really nice western horse
in Hawaii, a working cow horse with a real rocket in his behind. He was a
lot of fun!
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is? I've swapped
>several horses over and never had a problem introducing contact and leg aids
>as appropriate to the new job. I'm not talking bad examples of riding and
>training, by the by, and I am assuming you are not comparing good western
>style riding to bad English style riding either. If you are, it's apples and
>oranges and you might as well not even bother doing the comparison at all.
There really *is* a difference, even in English vs Western snaffle.
Gregg's snaffle horses see about the same proportion of beginners as
horses I've ridden in hunt seat barns; yet his snaffle horses are
lighter in the mouth and go with a significantly less contact than any
hunt seat trained horse I've ridden. I don't think the hunt seat
horses I'm comparing to are any less experienced or trained than
Gregg's snaffle horses (one of them I know has less training in his
background than the standard hunt seat horse I rode); it's simply a
matter that they are *routinely* ridden on a firmer contact than the
Western snaffle horses.
Additionally, one of his snaffle horses has a English background; when
I take up a more English contact with her, she actually changes her
gait and movement to a more English style (I suspect she was a former
park horse, her trot is where you really notice the difference and she
can line out in a nice, collected, high-stepping and eye-catching gait
which is totally amazing...and she takes a stronger contact to do so).
Ease the contact and she settles back into a Western mode.
Good western snaffle also requires a looser hand than good english
snaffle; go to www.ridewithbob.com and look at pictures of Bob Avila
riding in the snaffle--I'm sure there's gotta be some there, haven't
been there lately but there's usually some somewhere. You will notice
that the fingers are looser, more open, and spread apart; one reason I
haven't gone back to English riding is that so many instructors demand
tight fingers and fist-like rein holds while I really do prefer the
looser, more spread placement of a good Western snaffle hand. It's
kinder on arthritic hands, and I certainly beg to differ (based on
personal experience) that it's a less effective hand, as some English
instructors will insist. There is a difference between soft, spread
fingers and collapsing the wrist (which is what most English
instructors are trying to avoid), which is bad no matter what
discipline you're discussing. It *is* easier to maintain the softer
hands and spread fingers in a Western getup, because you are usually
riding with split reins crossed across the horse's neck, which gives
your hands some support.
>I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my area,
>although I am sure they are around. Out here, the vast majority of them are
>ridden by weekend warriors who want something to hang on to with the saddle
>horn. That and the very frightening 4-H crowd who do western classes and
>Games. I would no more use that as an example of a typical western attitude
>towards riding and training than I would jump out of a perfectly good
>airplane. :)
That's one reason why you've probably not seen the difference, then.
I do know that when I was riding both hunt seat and Western on a
weekly basis, I was having to seriously turn down my hunt seat legs
because the type of contact irritated the Western horse. While riding
Western, you tend to keep a leg contact but it is soft and following,
with nowhere near the intensity of a hunt seat leg.
Part of it may lie in what is acceptable leg augmentation. At the
hunt seat barn, crops were standard and spurs rare for students. I
frequently carried a crop when I rode. At the western barn, spurs are
standard and crops not at all (there's one bat, the rest of the whips
there are lunge whips). If a horse isn't listening, spurs get trotted
out. Whapping a horse with the rein ends isn't allowed, except if you
have romel reins and even then it isn't encouraged.
>I've not been on one who had any real suppleness, who you could
>use subtle leg and seat cues with, or which had any kind of a mouth to speak
>of (from bad hands and curb bits). I *did* ride a really nice western horse
>in Hawaii, a working cow horse with a real rocket in his behind. He was a
>lot of fun!
Come to Oregon, and I'll show you Western school horses you can make
dance *if* you know what you are doing. Old Teso the Ayrab, for
example, can turn a novice into tears if they get too aggressive with
him by simply refusing to move, stopping to pee and poop, whacking his
sides with their legs, etc, etc, etc. You have to put your leg on
this horse properly--which means a very light upper calf contact,
anything more or less turns him non-responsive.
But he *can* be incredibly soft and responsive, with the right cues.
When I rode him the other day, he picked up on my hip tightness and
reverted back to saddle seat background by offering me a perfectly
placed, sweet and proper stretch for me to mount him with (I scratched
his neck and told him "Good boy!", then put his feet back under
him...even though that made a couple of inches difference). The ride
was almost telepathic and I could elicit a wonderful extended walk out
of him by using my seatbones alone, we transistioned from Western jog
to working posting trot (a la saddle seat), turned with weighting
seatbones, stopped by markers with seat cue alone at a jog where I
cued him when his nose hit the marker and he stopped with my knee
parallel to it. Lovely, collected canter moments; interrupted changes
and even one flying change. Rollbacks. All done with predominant
seat and leg cueing (and a lot of bouncy springy party time! I get to
Do Stuff! action).
And this is a school horse, nothing particularly special except that
he is a well-trained horse in the bridle--which is a mullen mouth
curb. He was retrained from a saddle seat background, and as a result
will try to stick his nose out rather than bend inside, but it can be
done with very light legs.
The retired western pleasure champ is even lighter, and he *will* bend
properly without any gimmicks.
I think the thing is that I have had consistently good Western
training, and I know enough from my 4-H experience to recognize and
run away from bad Western training. Lack of knowledge got me exposed
to bad hunt seat (I now know enough to run far away from bad hunt seat
and recognize bad dressage); but even good hunt seat takes up more
contact than is standard in Western, even in snaffles.
jrw
Kris Carroll
> There really *is* a difference, even in English vs Western snaffle.
> Gregg's snaffle horses see about the same proportion of beginners as
> horses I've ridden in hunt seat barns; yet his snaffle horses are
> lighter in the mouth and go with a significantly less contact than any
> hunt seat trained horse I've ridden.
Conclusion: today's hunter trainers are idiots and the horses aren't
finished. Then again, is any horse that rides off the forehand? No.
Lightness or not.
> I don't think the hunt seat
> horses I'm comparing to are any less experienced or trained than
> Gregg's snaffle horses
Think again.
K
Texas rider
> > Susan, why not just start a PC, and add your western training to the
> > mix?
>
> Primarily because at some point the training will conflict. Additionally,
> because IMO, the Western riders need their own organization. Pony Club is a
> fine organization, but it is expensive. I've got something a little more
> egalitarian in mind. I think the Foundation QH people are on the right
> track in that they place more emphasis on performance than tack. No silver,
> no sequins.
>
> It's been my experience that it's somewhat easier to make the transformation
> from Western to English, for both horse and rider than the other way around.
> YMMV. Therefore, those with an interest in doing both, given the proper
> foundation, they should be able to do both or either with equal ease.
>
USPC to allow riders to specialize in one discipline or another over
the years, and the national organization has not allowed it. This
comes up because some riders are afraid to jump and want to specialize
in dressage, but the goal of the org is to build a well rounded rider,
so they remain firm in that. I also know the Old People's Riding Club
was originally going to be part of USPC, but now it is not. So, if you
talk to them, I would say don't hold your breath on getting a whole
lot of support from them. However, it would probably behoove you to
come to some of our club's meetings or some other club near you and
get an idea what exactly they are teaching and how they are doing it.
You should probably get the whole set of USPC manuals and read them
and get an idea of the basic knowledge that is covered in the program.
There is much more than what is in the manuals, but it is a good
starting point to understand the whole program. A lot of it will adapt
over to any type of riding as 1/2 of USPC training is horse management
and it starts with very young children. By age 9 some PCers can tell
you every bone, tendon and ligament in the horse's leg and hoof.
As to expense, it isn't really all that bad, especially in the
beginning-- although at the upper level it can be very expensive. The
young kids go to rallies with a total cost of about $15 to $25 for an
entire day. Everyone gets a ribbon, they compete on teams, not
individually, and they don't have to ride to compete. It is a much
more positive atmosphere than the regular shows. They also must take a
written test at each rally and they are judged on their stable
management. Parents are not allowed to help or even talk to them while
at the show grounds. Unmounted meetings are often free, and most
mounted meetings at club level cost less than $20. Annual dues which
include insurance are about $90 per child. For older kids they have
multiple day rallies (3 or 4 a year) which cost about $120 or so for a
2 day, between $200 and $300 for a 3-day event, but that includes
food, motel, stabling and show fees. So, in many cases it is less
expensive than local shows and certainly less than going to a breed
show or A circuit show which cost about $1,000 locally. Prices of
horses can range drastically, but the majority of kids are not riding
expensive horses. My daughter goes to a school where kids show Arabs.
This is NOTHING like that. Our daughter PCed for several years on a
$400 pony and did just fine with her-- an ex-barrel racer who learned
dressage, hunters, eventing, games and foxhunting with no problem. As
they get older the teenagers will usually be riding something that is
either full TB or has some TB blood in it, but often these horses are
often bought for about $2,000 to $3,500 and then trained. Some of
them do most of the training themselves. Most kids in our club did not
spend a whole lot of money for their horse.
Many times these horses are passed down through the club and are sold
at low prices to keep them PCing. They are often leased, too.
Nationally the average length of time someone is in USPC is 3 years
and the national exit rating is C2 (not a professional level rider,
but still a good rider). Our club is unusual that many members are
hitting the double digits and staying in until age 21. Why, probably
because it becomes a way of life. However, it is a little sad for me
as my daughter and the ones her age who have been together since third
grade, are into the last years of high school now, and they'll be
leaving for college soon. I see them losing interest. Its the other
school sports and activities, as they know its a once in a lifetime
opportunity and they'll always be able to ride. So, the idea here is
to think about making your program very good and exciting for the
middle school age group, and still exciting enough for the high
schoolers if you want to keep them around.
I just thought of someone else who is doing something like you are
thinking of. There is a local group- actually a girl scout troop, at
our school that started in middle school but they are now in high
school. They have a western based educational club like you are
talking about, but not as serious as USPC. I might be able to get you
in touch with the women who run it. They are teachers at the school.
CG
Jennifer
>> Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact with
one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get his
front end back on the ground. >>
yup
>Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in Dressage. For those that have never
ridden a truly broke Western horse, the aids are extremely light by
comparison.>
depends on the horse. holding the Sacred SOB (my 18 yr old Arab) together for a
WP leaves me with sweat running down my face. If I let my leg off of him he'll
just stick his nose up in the air and flounder along, or if we're jogging he'll
just stop.
>"Eileen Morgan" eg...@enter.net
>How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is?>
I can't speak for Susan, nor Jorene, but do you notice a pattern here? 3
western riders, 4 if you include Joyce, from different parts of the country
(ok, so Jorene and I are from California) who are saying the same things? What
I see is english trainers and their students (from dressage to hunt seat to
over fences) who use way too much contact on the reins. I had to ask one lady
to get off a horse we had for sale because she simply couldn't keep him going
forward with the amount of contact she was using.
>I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my area,
although I am sure they are around>
the average backyard uneducated rider is a western rider, no doubt about it. my
problem is these english riders who make me cringe are supposedly "educated"
riders.
I'm not sure where all these light handed, not hanging on the mouth, english
riders are but they seem to have bypassed me (and it appears Susan, Jorene and
Joyce have missed them as well)
It's quite possible that some of your english folks here on rec.eq would NOT
have what I would call light hands or use light contact. maybe what you have in
mind as the "right" thing is exactly what I have in my mind as the "wrong"
thing.
I recommend ya'll come on out to Caleefornee and we do ourselves some riding.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Kris Carroll
> I'm not sure where all these light handed, not hanging on the mouth, english
> riders are but they seem to have bypassed me (and it appears Susan, Jorene and
> Joyce have missed them as well)
This surprises you?
> the average backyard uneducated rider is a western rider, no doubt about it.
> my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are supposedly
> "educated" riders.
The average english rider is taking lessons from the average backyard
instructor ferchrissakes. But at least few of them ride with a big chair
perched on the horse's back. DQs notwithstanding.
K <eg>
Ken Brown
news:20010903013402...@mb-fh.aol.com:
>>Susan Dangar <vsda...@htcomp.net>
>>> Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact
>>> with
> one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get
> his front end back on the ground. >>
>>"Eileen Morgan" eg...@enter.net
>>How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is?>
>
> I can't speak for Susan, nor Jorene, but do you notice a pattern here?
> 3 western riders, 4 if you include Joyce, from different parts of the
> country (ok, so Jorene and I are from California) who are saying the
You forgot me - from the ignurant south.
> same things? What I see is english trainers and their students (from
> dressage to hunt seat to over fences) who use way too much contact on
> the reins. I had to ask one lady to get off a horse we had for sale
That was my question way back when .. what's WITH all that contact???
> the average backyard uneducated rider is a western rider, no doubt
> about it. my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are
> supposedly "educated" riders.
I have to agree there ... and then the English riders get snooty if you ask
about that contact thing.. as if I am beneath them to ask or if I am so
stupid I shouldn't ask. And I am wearing a ball cap, not a "cowboy" hat.
Do you think the fact I am wearing jeans, t-shirt, boots and my spurs go
clink-clink is the "western" giveaway??
> I'm not sure where all these light handed, not hanging on the mouth,
> english riders are but they seem to have bypassed me (and it appears
> Susan, Jorene and Joyce have missed them as well)
Haven't seen any down here. And didn't see any at the big show in perry,
GA either.
> It's quite possible that some of your english folks here on rec.eq
> would NOT have what I would call light hands or use light contact.
> maybe what you have in mind as the "right" thing is exactly what I have
> in my mind as the "wrong" thing.
Yup. I have yet to see "light" in English, but I suppose it exists if
these folks say it exists? I try to give some benefit of the doubt. But
what they call "light" and what IS light .. well .. seems like it just
might be in two universes.
I keep getting this mental thing going.. the reason they are always right
there in the mouth is because: a) they are afraid the horse is going to
run off if they do NOT ride that way (they don't trust the horse); or b)
they have to keep that pressure on to make the horse do something
physically with their body that isn't very fun or pleasant for the horse to
do (same with constant leg pressures); or c) they don't have any really
broke horses so that they CAN let them go light and easy on the bit; or d)
they don't really like horses, as always being in their mouth (and not
letting them learn to get off that bit and stay light) isn't very nice, is
it?
> I recommend ya'll come on out to Caleefornee and we do ourselves some
> riding.
I wanna come, too!!!!! If just to watch, and not ride.
-----------------------------------
Those of you that think you know
everything about horses really annoy
the hell out of us that know we don't.
Susan Dangar
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net> wrote in message
news:lWBk7.71$XE.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
>
> Susan Dangar <vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
> news:tp5ekg1...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact
with
> > one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get
> his
> > front end back on the ground. Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in
> > Dressage. For those that have never ridden a truly broke Western horse,
> the
> > aids are extremely light by comparison.
>
> How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is? I've swapped
> several horses over and never had a problem introducing contact and leg
aids
> as appropriate to the new job. I'm not talking bad examples of riding and
> training, by the by, and I am assuming you are not comparing good western
> style riding to bad English style riding either. If you are, it's apples
and
> oranges and you might as well not even bother doing the comparison at all.
I'm sorry, you evidently misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about bad
riding at all. I was talking about the difference in contact. Even with
snaffle work there exists quite different amounts of pressure. Hand
position is different, rein tension is different. Properly done Western
riding is really more "weight of the rein" than English. The degree of
contact between English and Western horses beyond basic greenies, is vastly
different. This is absolutely not intended to be a dig at English riders.
It is simply a statement of fact. I'm supposing that this is due primarily
because folks are attempting to achieve collection via the mouth rather than
riding from back to front. Joyce and Jennifer addressed this point quite
nicely, I thought.
>
> I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my area,
> although I am sure they are around. Out here, the vast majority of them
are
> ridden by weekend warriors who want something to hang on to with the
saddle
> horn. That and the very frightening 4-H crowd who do western classes and
> Games.
Yes ma'am. I've seen far too much of the same thing, which indicates to me
that more could be done in the area of teaching the "basics" to Western
riders. This is precisely why I'd like to see the formation of an
organization that addresses this need.
I've not been on one who had any real suppleness, who you could
> use subtle leg and seat cues with, or which had any kind of a mouth to
speak
> of (from bad hands and curb bits).
That's a shame. I bet you'd love it, and have the skills to do it well.
:-)
I *did* ride a really nice western horse
> in Hawaii, a working cow horse with a real rocket in his behind. He was a
> lot of fun!
Well, there ya go. <G>
Glad to hear Callie's doing better.
Susan Dangar
Kris Anderson
>
>[....]
> That was my question way back when .. what's WITH all that contact???
The same kind of thing that's with all those curb bits and rowelled
spurs: different styles for different purposes.
> > the average backyard uneducated rider is a western rider, no doubt
> > about it. my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are
> > supposedly "educated" riders.
Yes, educated in a different style of riding from the one you want to
know about.
> I have to agree there ... and then the English riders get snooty if you ask
> about that contact thing.. as if I am beneath them to ask or if I am so
> stupid I shouldn't ask. And I am wearing a ball cap, not a "cowboy" hat.
> Do you think the fact I am wearing jeans, t-shirt, boots and my spurs go
> clink-clink is the "western" giveaway??
The contact on the snaffle puts about the same amount of pressure on
the mouth as lifting the hands does on the curb. Put a curb bit on the
same horse that you claim is going on heavy contact, and he's likely to
back right off that bit when you take the slack out of the reins.
> > I'm not sure where all these light handed, not hanging on the mouth,
> > english riders are but they seem to have bypassed me (and it appears
> > Susan, Jorene and Joyce have missed them as well)
I'm not sure where all those good western trainers are either.
Whenever I see them they're yanking the crap out of their horses faces,
kicking them in the shoulders, and jabbing the spurs into them to get
their attention. Just because the heavy contact is brief and amplified,
doesn't mean it's not contact, or that it's not heavy.
> Yup. I have yet to see "light" in English, but I suppose it exists if
> these folks say it exists? I try to give some benefit of the doubt. But
> what they call "light" and what IS light .. well .. seems like it just
> might be in two universes.
Baucherists ride on the same kind of contact as reiners, and use the
same kind of training methods. Instead of teaching the horse to
maintain a steady, firmer contact with the bit, they train the horse to
do his work on a looped rein. Both methods work, and the choice of
method is generally based on personal preference.
> I keep getting this mental thing going.. the reason they are always right
> there in the mouth is because: a) they are afraid the horse is going to
> run off if they do NOT ride that way (they don't trust the horse); or b)
> they have to keep that pressure on to make the horse do something
> physically with their body that isn't very fun or pleasant for the horse to
> do (same with constant leg pressures); or c) they don't have any really
> broke horses so that they CAN let them go light and easy on the bit; or d)
> they don't really like horses, as always being in their mouth (and not
> letting them learn to get off that bit and stay light) isn't very nice, is
> it?
or e) they're interested in a horse who goes freely forward, so they
don't want a horse who is always sucked back worrying about whether he's
going to be punished because he missed a cue.
RPM1
> > But what they call "light" and what IS light .. well .. seems like it
just
> > might be in two universes.
It is.
<sigh> We're here. We just have sort of given up on
yapping on about something that folks, for whatever
reason of their own, refuse to =think= about.
Timely this, after being at a party last night with very dear
friends. One of which is our MFH. I made the mistake of
bringing up riding styles (something in the 7 years that we've
known each other we've never discussed). Hoo-boy! It
ended with her refusing to listen and eventually leaping up
and leaving the room. She's a very hold and drive 'em up into
your hand type.
I mean, does the process of balance =before= movement
and true self-carriage scare people THAT much? I guess
so.
For anyone interested, Patrick gives a masterclass lesson
nearly every Sunday in the late afternoon in Warwick NY.
Anyone is welcome to come watch and pick his brain. Since
it's the holiday weekend Pat is doing it today (Monday). Email
for details.
Ruth CM
Kris Anderson
>
>[....]
> I mean, does the process of balance =before= movement
> and true self-carriage scare people THAT much? I guess
> so.
I don't think so. I think people tend to stick with what they do know
simply because they're already so heavily invested in it. It's always
difficult to find the time to learn about and integrate new approaches,
and especially when both FEI and RIL have been represented as being
mutually exclusive training programs.
I don't think they are mutually exclusive, though. More and more of
the riders I talk to who do compete are also taking a little from here
and a little from there, and trying to put it all together to come up
with a better training program.
> For anyone interested, Patrick gives a masterclass lesson
> nearly every Sunday in the late afternoon in Warwick NY.
> Anyone is welcome to come watch and pick his brain. Since
> it's the holiday weekend Pat is doing it today (Monday). Email
> for details.
Sounds good. We ride Sunday mornings, but if it's late afternoon I
could do it. We have hay down today but most of Sept. and Oct is
unscheduled as of right now, so I'd like to come down. Will email for
directions.
Eileen Morgan
>I'm supposing that this is due primarily
> because folks are attempting to achieve collection via the mouth rather
than
> riding from back to front.
totally bass ackwards and therefore not good riding. :)
> Yes ma'am. I've seen far too much of the same thing, which indicates to
me
> that more could be done in the area of teaching the "basics" to Western
> riders. This is precisely why I'd like to see the formation of an
> organization that addresses this need.
I wish you every luck in your effort to help raise the bar in your area. :)
> Glad to hear Callie's doing better.
Thanks!
I have a page set up for her, but my FTP program is a new one since my
computer crashed and we lost our C drive and it is fighting with me about
connecting properly. My tech head buddy is coming over to help me with it.
Ken Brown
news:3B92C35F...@ephs.org:
> Ken Brown wrote:
>>
>>[....]
>> That was my question way back when .. what's WITH all that contact???
>
> The same kind of thing that's with all those curb bits and
> rowelled
> spurs: different styles for different purposes.
Well .. OK. But can't your purpose be achieved without always being in the
horse's mouth?
Western riding considers that a "not broke" horse and a fault that needs
correction.
>> > about it. my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are
>> > supposedly "educated" riders.
>
> Yes, educated in a different style of riding from the one you want
> to
> know about.
Perhaps we DO know something about what you are doing and just don't like
it?
> The contact on the snaffle puts about the same amount of pressure
> on
> the mouth as lifting the hands does on the curb. Put a curb bit on the
Nope.
> same horse that you claim is going on heavy contact, and he's likely to
> back right off that bit when you take the slack out of the reins.
I shouldn't HAVE to take a bunch of slack out of the reins to back a horse
off a bit. He should already KNOW not to be on the bit and get off of it
at all times. I don't have to "hold" him to get him to back off - he
avoids strong contact with it.
> I'm not sure where all those good western trainers are either.
Evidently not near you.
> Whenever I see them they're yanking the crap out of their horses faces,
> kicking them in the shoulders, and jabbing the spurs into them to get
> their attention. Just because the heavy contact is brief and
> amplified, doesn't mean it's not contact, or that it's not heavy.
Sounds like over-collected "western" pleasure junk. Which, IMO, is not
proper western anything. it is a "show" thing that I find painful to watch
- so I don't.
> Baucherists ride on the same kind of contact as reiners, and use
> the
> same kind of training methods. Instead of teaching the horse to
> maintain a steady, firmer contact with the bit, they train the horse to
> do his work on a looped rein. Both methods work, and the choice of
> method is generally based on personal preference.
Have you ridden or trained a reiner? Then how can you make such an
assumption? Define a "looped" rein.
>> I keep getting this mental thing going.. the reason they are always
>> right there in the mouth is because: a) they are afraid the horse is
>> going to run off if they do NOT ride that way (they don't trust the
>> horse); or b) they have to keep that pressure on to make the horse do
>> something physically with their body that isn't very fun or pleasant
>> for the horse to do (same with constant leg pressures); or c) they
>> don't have any really broke horses so that they CAN let them go light
>> and easy on the bit; or d) they don't really like horses, as always
>> being in their mouth (and not letting them learn to get off that bit
>> and stay light) isn't very nice, is it?
>
> or e) they're interested in a horse who goes freely forward, so
> they
> don't want a horse who is always sucked back worrying about whether
> he's going to be punished because he missed a cue.
I don't buy into your "e" option above. It assumes your contact creates a
freely forward horse, which, be fdefinition, cannot occur if you are always
in their mouth. If the horse moves freely forward, it is in spite of your
bit pressures, not because of it. And I think your definitions of "freely"
need to be examined - in light of a horse's natural movement. Just because
a bunch of folks get together and decide "this is proper carriage and free
movement" doesn't make it so to a horse.
A "sucked back" horse is not a good thing. It prevents proper movement and
doesn't allow for the movements we require. Perhaps your "proper carriage"
is just a human perspective of "proper carriage" and doesn't really exist
naturally? My theory is to keep things as close to natural as possible -
that is, allow the horse to move in manner that closely proximates his
natural movement. Add to that natural movement and carrige psecific
manuevers and things change a bit to allow the maneuver, but the same basic
principle "soft is good, less is more" applies.
Texas rider
> news:tp5ekg1...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact with
> > one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to get
> his
> > front end back on the ground. Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in
> > Dressage. For those that have never ridden a truly broke Western horse,
> the
> > aids are extremely light by comparison.
>
> How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is? I've swapped
> several horses over and never had a problem introducing contact and leg aids
> as appropriate to the new job.
> I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my area,
> although I am sure they are around. Out here, the vast majority of them are
> ridden by weekend warriors who want something to hang on to with the saddle
> horn.
<snip>
I thought that an odd comment, too. I ride with a trail riding group
sometimes and most people ride western, but have primarily ridden
english and been trained english. The worst riding I have seen is with
the trailriding group. The first time I went on a weekend ride with
them the level of riding ability was very noticeably lower than the
people I'd been riding with english.
Yes, there are plenty of bad english riders around, too. This is seen
in the local hunter barns that cater to children. We often see these
kids careening around out of control over their courses. My theory is
that the trainers are in a hurry to get the kids to the showring to
make more money on them, and many are there way before they should be.
However, that is not what we were taught in terms of lightness. All of
our horses we have trained and ridden are light mouthed. When I took
lessons with a dressage trainer she had them start with heavier
contact and then back off to lighter contact. The huntseat instructor
did it the opposite-- start 'em with no contact and add a little
contact as you go. That method worked best for me.
As for Pony Club (here), you will see much better riding and training
in PC than you may see in an average hunter barn. There are some good
hunter trainers, and some bad ones, but no standards to evaluate them.
If you happen to get lucky, you can get great huntseat training, but
it can be hard to get lucky. In PC, you can't teach unless you have
some credentials and that keeps the level of instruction high. Safety,
not turning a profit, is the main concern when the kids ride.
I think if Susan D. would go see some PC mounted meetings or attend a
rally, she might be very impressed with what these kids can do.
CG
Ken Brown
news:tp6ul9p...@corp.supernews.com:
> Ken Brown wrote:
>> > But what they call "light" and what IS light .. well .. seems like it
>> > just might be in two universes.
>
> It is.
Yeah.. guess it is.
> <sigh> We're here. We just have sort of given up on
> yapping on about something that folks, for whatever
> reason of their own, refuse to =think= about.
I can relate. Prejudice and rooted misconception are tough to get past.
But someone has to keep trying, or nothing will ever change. It is even
more sad that the "protocol" of gear and such prevents demonstrating to the
English crowd that there is another way. Could you imagine a bridle horse
with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high? With
a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements of dress"
to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
Like anything stuck in a blind following of "tradition", methodology isn't
going to change much.
> friends. One of which is our MFH. I made the mistake of
> bringing up riding styles (something in the 7 years that we've
> known each other we've never discussed). Hoo-boy! It
Oops.
> ended with her refusing to listen and eventually leaping up
> and leaving the room. She's a very hold and drive 'em up into
> your hand type.
Well, what can you do? Some folks are close-mnded and fear anything that
resembles a difference in their perfect and tidy world.
> I mean, does the process of balance =before= movement
> and true self-carriage scare people THAT much? I guess
> so.
It must. God forbid the human not be directing every second of time during
movement by the horse.
Seems like they just don't trust or like the horse much ...
FWIW, the "western" styles are really passed down from a more utilitarian
use of the horse - cavalry. A hand had to be free to wield a sword, thus
different training was required. In addition, actual working horses had to
be more "broke" to enable a rancher to keep a free hand to rope, shoot,
etc. All of this led to different bits and styles to get the job done.
English styles have no element where a free hand is required - not for
jumping, not for fox hunting, not dressage. Nada. Two hands it has always
been, two it will always be .. or so it seems. They call this "proper"
because it has always been and fits the shows and requirements they have to
be in these shows and activities.
Western styles come from a world of function over form. English styles
come from a world of form over function.
I like what works with the least amount of force applied to the horse. And
a horse is taught to get off that bit so you don't HAVE to be in their
mouth all the time. And big, ugly spurs are used sparsely - but when used
are used - so the horse learns what to do quickly. It is more humane to
poke the beast once to wake him up than to continue pounding away with a
nubby spur. It is more humane to lightly touch to get a response than to
push and push with a nubby - it also avoids your horse becoming dead-sided.
Of course, everyone knows a horse's skin is 8 times thicker than a human's,
right? And that they kick each other and bite in pastures. So why in hell
would a human think a spur poke or a jab in the ribs with a knuckle would
even BEGIN to inflict any physical problems upon a horse?
Pressure is not just actual physical pressures or proximities, it is also
mental. We leverage our pressures against the horse, often using his own
weight and size against him. We do this in a round pen, with bits and
other aids and with some degree of fear and intimidation - the horse thinks
we can do something, thus it responds. Once he learns we are not going to
actually EAT him, he will do more of what we ask with less objection. A
horse learns by consistent repetition (memory is the largest part of the
equine brain - survival thing) and is a conditioned response animal. Have
a condition, get a response. Repeat. Over and over.
Constant "contact" sets up a condition and gets a response, but is never
taken to the next step .. LIGHTEN the condition and still encourage (and
receive) the same response! That, IMO, is a beautiful and graceful thing
to observe when done properly .. light.. relaxed.. no head tossing, etc.
It resembles cooperation and willingness and all sorts of other neat value
judgments we toss in there, but is actually just a conditioned response
made to be as light as possible. Which, coincidentally, has to be "nicer"
on the horse as there is LESS pressure being applied to his mouth, etc.
Susan Dangar
Kris Carroll
> Timely this, after being at a party last night with very dear
> friends. One of which is our MFH. I made the mistake of
> bringing up riding styles (something in the 7 years that we've
> known each other we've never discussed). Hoo-boy! It
> ended with her refusing to listen and eventually leaping up
> and leaving the room. She's a very hold and drive 'em up into
> your hand type.
>
> I mean, does the process of balance =before= movement
> and true self-carriage scare people THAT much? I guess
> so.
Not so. Self-carriage is like pregnant - either you are or you aren't but
ANY discussion about ANY topic that supposes a One True Way puts people
off. Irony about your MFH is that she is trying to acheive self-carriage,
the wrong way. :) If your communication skills were better, you might have
been able to help her. Let Patick do the talking next time.
K
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Carroll) wrote:
snip
>Conclusion: today's hunter trainers are idiots and the horses aren't
>finished. Then again, is any horse that rides off the forehand? No.
>Lightness or not.
Yep.
>> I don't think the hunt seat
>> horses I'm comparing to are any less experienced or trained than
>> Gregg's snaffle horses
>Think again.
Gregg's snaffle horses are 1.) an experienced old Arab mare who has
clearly had a high level of training (and she's nearly 30 years old so
that might explain her level of English training) and 2.) a 10 year
old QH who's had no real show training or even upper-level Western
training and who spent a good chunk of his previous career as a ranch
horse who was only ridden twice a year to herd cows. Now he *did* get
Gregg's basic training, but by all accounting that still leaves him
with less overall experience and training than some of those hunt seat
horses I was riding in lessons, some of whom supposedly had show
careers and stellar training.
Might also be a factor of the quality of instructors. Overall, the
Grand Cypress instructors didn't cal for as heavy a contact as the
other hunt seat instructors I had--but it was still a heavier contact.
jrw
CMNewell
<nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
> Could you imagine a bridle horse
>with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high? With
>a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements of dress"
>to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
Bit's illegal, too.
CMNewell, DVM
self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"You can be perverse, a horse cannot." --TvG
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
snip
>I can relate. Prejudice and rooted misconception are tough to get past.
>But someone has to keep trying, or nothing will ever change. It is even
>more sad that the "protocol" of gear and such prevents demonstrating to the
>English crowd that there is another way. Could you imagine a bridle horse
>with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high? With
>a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements of dress"
>to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
I've heard the fellow that Ruth and Patrick ride with--Jean-Claude
Racinet--express a similar view. I've also heard him say that the
Western bridle horse is closer to the ideal of classical dressage than
many a current competition rider.
Hell, Ken, you're closer to JCR than I am--make some time and go see
him! You'd like him. I did. He's in the Carolinas. Somewhere
roundabout here I've got an old Dressage and Combined Training mag
which has some reprints of back and forth letters between him and John
Richard Young....comparing Western and French classical dressage...
Hey Ruth, methinks we've got another potential Racinet convert here...
jrw
CMNewell
>English styles have no element where a free hand is required - not for
>jumping, not for fox hunting, not dressage. Nada. Two hands it has always
>been, two it will always be .. or so it seems.
You'd be wrong, there. You need to put the reins in one hand in order
to weild a hound whip or blow a horn. Or open a gate, for that matter.
John Hasler
> I'm not sure where all those good western trainers are either. Whenever
> I see them they're yanking the crap out of their horses faces, kicking
> them in the shoulders, and jabbing the spurs into them to get their
> attention.
Don't forget hitting them in the face with a crop to teach them to "neck
rein".
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Susan Dangar
news:<lWBk7.71$XE.1...@newshog.newsread.com>...
> > Susan Dangar <vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
> > news:tp5ekg1...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Yes, and no. For instance, is someone were to take "English" contact
with
> > > one of my horses, they'd most likely be trying to figure out how to
get
> > his
> > > front end back on the ground. Ditto for the amount of "leg" used in
> > > Dressage. For those that have never ridden a truly broke Western
horse,
> > the
> > > aids are extremely light by comparison.
> >
> > How the heck much contact do you think "English" contact is? I've
swapped
> > several horses over and never had a problem introducing contact and leg
aids
> > as appropriate to the new job.
Same here, but this does involve some retraining, this is primarily
accomplished with seat and leg. It takes a little time to get a Western
trained horse to accept constant contact with the bit. Riders that have a
good following hand usually accomplish this with more ease.
> <snip>
> > I've seen very few well broke and trained western style horses in my
area,
> > although I am sure they are around. Out here, the vast majority of them
are
> > ridden by weekend warriors who want something to hang on to with the
saddle
> > horn.
>
> <snip>
>
> I thought that an odd comment, too. I ride with a trail riding group
> sometimes and most people ride western, but have primarily ridden
> english and been trained english.
If you had stated that an accomplished rider could easily transfer from one
style to other I would have agreed with you. That's not what you said. You
said all horses are ridden the same and will respond the same. This is,
IMO, an inaccurate statement.
The worst riding I have seen is with
> the trailriding group.
And this surprises you?
The first time I went on a weekend ride with
> them the level of riding ability was very noticeably lower than the
> people I'd been riding with english.
I don't really see a correlation here. There are riders of all skill levels
in all disciplines. I have a tendency to associate with folks with skill
levels equal to mine, or better (hopefully I can learn a little something).
A number of my friends ride both English and Western, and do both equally
well. I took exception to the concept that any horse can do equally well.
Some can, some can't. A great deal depends on their training, conformation
and mental suitability for the task at hand.
> Yes, there are plenty of bad english riders around, too. This is seen
> in the local hunter barns that cater to children.
I'd say the above would be true of any facility that focuses on competition.
We often see these
> kids careening around out of control over their courses. My theory is
> that the trainers are in a hurry to get the kids to the showring to
> make more money on them, and many are there way before they should be.
And yet, many of these "trainers" are those certified, credentialed folk of
whom you speak.
> However, that is not what we were taught in terms of lightness. All of
> our horses we have trained and ridden are light mouthed. When I took
> lessons with a dressage trainer she had them start with heavier
> contact and then back off to lighter contact.
I would do the same, but I suspect the amount of contact I start with will
still be less than the average dressage person would use.
The huntseat instructor
> did it the opposite-- start 'em with no contact and add a little
> contact as you go. That method worked best for me.
> As for Pony Club (here), you will see much better riding and training
> in PC than you may see in an average hunter barn. There are some good
> hunter trainers, and some bad ones, but no standards to evaluate them.
> If you happen to get lucky, you can get great huntseat training, but
> it can be hard to get lucky. In PC, you can't teach unless you have
> some credentials and that keeps the level of instruction high. Safety,
> not turning a profit, is the main concern when the kids ride.
I've also seen PC kids overmounted.
> I think if Susan D. would go see some PC mounted meetings or attend a
> rally, she might be very impressed with what these kids can do.
Actually, I have. And I was, the Lone Star Club is a very good one. In
fact, I'm going to get together with Linda L. on Friday to do some
brainstorming and to borrow some materials. She's also been kind enough to
video some events for me.
Much like letting horses tell me what they need during training, I'm gaining
some real insight from the Jr. Rider's I've been in contact with. These
kids are truly impressive, well-spoken, thoughtful and knowledgeable. When
I get the website up, pending obtaining permission, I'd like to share some
of their input.
Susan Dangar
RPM1
>Let Patick do the talking next time.
He came over and did the talking near the end THAT'S
when she got up and walked off.
Believe it or not, =I= was the one being diplomatic about
the whole discussion that I really didn't want to be having
in the first place. Cripes, I just wanted to catch a decent
buzz on and watch some DVD concerts.
Ruth CM
Jennifer
>> I'm not sure where all these light handed, not hanging on the mouth, english
riders are but they seem to have bypassed me (and it appears Susan, Jorene and
Joyce have missed them as well)>
>knospam...@halcyon.com (Kris Carroll)>
>This surprises you? >
in a way, yes. I rode H/J and Saddleseat horse off and on for years. I've been
exposed to a lot of different trainers, riders, exhibitors, etc and pretty
consistently they ride with a grip on the reins that would cause one of my
horses to flip over backwards.
I also know Joyce has some english experience and has made similar comments.
I had a woman try out a horse I had for sale years ago. She exhibited in cross
country, dressage, hunters, etc. with a fair amount of success. She considered
herself an educated rider and was always taking clinics, lessons, etc. I
pointed out to her that this horse had a tendency to be a bit heavy on the
forehand and would pull given the opportunity. She rode him for a while and as
she walked by I said something like "see, you're getting some of that
heaviness from him I mentioned, he's pulling on you". She looked at me and said
"he's not pulling at all, he's quite light". As she's saying this I can see the
veins popping out on the backs of her hands and he's rooting on the bit and his
lips were getting pulled backwards by the bit. NOT my idea of light at all.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Jennifer
ahem, you don't count. You didn't even know what Ariats are. go sit in a
corner.
>That was my question way back when .. what's WITH all that contact???>
I leave that to the resident english folk here to answer.
>I keep getting this mental thing going.. the reason they are always right
there in the mouth is because: a) they are afraid the horse is going to run
off if they do NOT ride that way (they don't trust the horse);>
when Mike has done clinics, the riders who seem most easily intimidated by
their horses are the english riders and they're also the ones most resistant to
'letting go"
< or b) they have to keep that pressure on to make the horse do something
physically with their body that isn't very fun or pleasant for the horse to do
(same with constant leg pressures);>
I use a lot of leg especially as the horse progresses in training and I want
more drive from behind and more lifting of the ribcage. one of the things I
don't like about *most* Reiner is that they don't appear to be driving off
their hindend at all. they appear to be just galloping around their patterns
with a few stops and spins thrown in. Give me a horse that elevates it's front
end and drops it's hind end.
< or c) they don't have any really broke horses so that they CAN let them go
light and easy on the bit;>
see my answer to (a)
< or d) they don't really like horses, as always being in their mouth (and not
letting them learn to get off that bit and stay light) isn't very nice, is
it? >
the contact appears to be pretty generally accepted in the english circles. I
wonder if it has increased as more and more folk have become interested in bid
D Dressage (as opposed to little d dressage, which I just call training - eg)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Jennifer
it. my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are supposedly
"educated" riders.>>>
>>Kris Anderson kan...@ephs.org
Yes, educated in a different style of riding from the one you want to
know about.>>
actually Kris, you attributed the first comment to Ken who, to the best of my
knowledge doesn't/hasn't ridden english. However, this comment was made by me,
who has indeed ridden english over a period of many years, on many different
types of horses - both huntseat (aka forward seat) and saddleseat.
>Baucherists ride on the same kind of contact as reiners, and use the same kind
of training methods. >
um, most reiners don't ride in contact. unless the reiners where you've seen
them are vastly different than the ones here on the west coast.
>or e) they're interested in a horse who goes freely forward, so they don't
want a horse who is always sucked back worrying about whether he's going to be
punished because he missed a cue.>
freely forward is the last term I'd use to describe MOST of the english horses
I've seen.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Jennifer
>Not so. Self-carriage is like pregnant - either you are or you aren't but ANY
discussion about ANY topic that supposes a One True Way puts people off.>
I've asked this question before and I'll ask again. How is "self carriage",
which in my mind says "the horse is carrying himself in a balanced position"
achieved via contact on the mouth? In my mind self carriage would be much more
evident if the horse carried himself in a balanced fashion with NO REIN
CONTACT. Having the horse on contact seems to defy the term "self" carriage.
maybe the term "self carriage" needs to be dumped and another term created?
P&M
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Jennifer
rein".>
right up there with using side reins to teach "self" carriage and chambons to
teach "rounding the back".
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Eileen Morgan
Ken Brown <nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote in message
news:Xns911167529E67Akr...@198.252.32.180...
> Could you imagine a bridle horse
> with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high? With
> a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements of
dress"
> to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
So if I show up to do some western competitions in my dressage do-dads you
think that will have no effect on my scores? Please.
Ken Brown
news:20010903123544...@mb-fn.aol.com:
>>John Hasler jo...@dhh.gt.org
> Don't forget hitting them in the face with a crop to teach them to
> "neck rein".>
>
> right up there with using side reins to teach "self" carriage and
> chambons to teach "rounding the back".
YEAH! What she said!
Who in the HELL would hit a horse in the face to teach them to neck rein??
Now.. if they won't back up, I can see going at them with a 2x4 in the face
... <just kidding>
Ken Brown
news:20010903123014...@mb-fn.aol.com:
>>> > the average backyard uneducated rider is a western rider, no doubt
>>> > about
> it. my problem is these english riders who make me cringe are
> supposedly "educated" riders.>>>
>
>>>Kris Anderson kan...@ephs.org
> Yes, educated in a different style of riding from the one you want to
> know about.>>
>
> actually Kris, you attributed the first comment to Ken who, to the best
> of my knowledge doesn't/hasn't ridden english. However, this comment
Nope. Haven't done it. Might one day, but I really want to stick to what
I am doing for now.
>>Baucherists ride on the same kind of contact as reiners, and use the
>>same kind of training methods. >
>
> um, most reiners don't ride in contact. unless the reiners where you've
> seen them are vastly different than the ones here on the west coast.
Hmm... how many East Coast reiners made the USET? Just wondering ... maybe
the East Coast really DOES do reining differently?
> freely forward is the last term I'd use to describe MOST of the english
> horses I've seen.
I have to agree ... I don't ride English, but I can sure tell when a horse
is moving freely.
Ken Brown
news:20010903122517...@mb-fn.aol.com:
>>Ken Brown nospam...@positrakinc.com
>>You forgot me - from the ignurant south.
>
> ahem, you don't count. You didn't even know what Ariats are. go sit in
> a corner.
Yeah I do! They got that ATS thing and those funny yellow "Y" things on
the bottoms .. uh.. soles??
I still do crepe sole roper-style boots. More comfy when in them all day.
leather soles slip too much, too.
>>That was my question way back when .. what's WITH all that contact???>
>
> I leave that to the resident english folk here to answer.
I have seen some answers. I don't like 'em so far .. but they ARE answers,
I reckon.
> there in the mouth is because: a) they are afraid the horse is going
> to run off if they do NOT ride that way (they don't trust the horse);>
>
> when Mike has done clinics, the riders who seem most easily intimidated
> by their horses are the english riders and they're also the ones most
> resistant to 'letting go"
I must agree... weird, isn't it??
> < or b) they have to keep that pressure on to make the horse do
> something physically with their body that isn't very fun or pleasant
> for the horse to do (same with constant leg pressures);>
>
> I use a lot of leg especially as the horse progresses in training and I
> want more drive from behind and more lifting of the ribcage. one of
> the things I don't like about *most* Reiner is that they don't appear
> to be driving off their hindend at all. they appear to be just
> galloping around their patterns with a few stops and spins thrown in.
> Give me a horse that elevates it's front end and drops it's hind end.
YES, YES, YES! That is what I have been taught and how I ride - leg, leg,
leg. Seat. Balance. The positioning of the ribcage is critical, not just
in doing circles but when spins (especially more so perhaps). Drive from
behind and keep the front end light!
> < or c) they don't have any really broke horses so that they CAN let
> them go light and easy on the bit;>
>
> see my answer to (a)
Makes sense to me.
> < or d) they don't really like horses, as always being in their mouth
> (and not
> letting them learn to get off that bit and stay light) isn't very
> nice, is
> it? >
>
> the contact appears to be pretty generally accepted in the english
> circles. I wonder if it has increased as more and more folk have become
> interested in bid D Dressage (as opposed to little d dressage, which I
> just call training - eg)
Hmm .. makes sense to me. I thought maybe I was seeing things and
imagining stuff in my head, but it looks like some pretty educated Western
riders (with English experience) are confirming my suspicions - English
isn't light.
They may not even like horses much ... makes me wonder WHY they have them
and ride them?
Ken Brown
news:bf77pt43b7leh3iil...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:01:59 GMT, Ken Brown
> <nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
>
>> Could you imagine a bridle horse
>>with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high?
>>With a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements
>>of dress" to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
>
> Bit's illegal, too.
Figures .. sigh... get a really nice light horse with a bit to communicate
subtle pressures and cues and it happens to be illegal.
Has anyone ever considered a MAJOR overhaul of the English bit world?? To
give these horses some relief? Different bits may actually allow for a
lighter contact and demonstrate more finesse with the horse.
Ken Brown
news:3b93a058...@news.aracnet.com:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:01:59 GMT, Ken Brown
> <nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
>>you imagine a bridle horse with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage
>>event and placing high? With a spade? That would shake up a few
>>things, but the "requirements of dress" to "preserve the sanctity and
>>dignity" prevents such.
> I've heard the fellow that Ruth and Patrick ride with--Jean-Claude
> Racinet--express a similar view. I've also heard him say that the
> Western bridle horse is closer to the ideal of classical dressage than
> many a current competition rider.
I can see why.
> Hell, Ken, you're closer to JCR than I am--make some time and go see
> him! You'd like him. I did. He's in the Carolinas. Somewhere
Point me to some info and I will make a strong effort to drag a horse on
over.
> Hey Ruth, methinks we've got another potential Racinet convert here...
I don't convert to anything very easily. I hate being a member of anything
that would have me associated with them.
Ken Brown
news:5n77pt8vp5c60b2nn...@4ax.com:
>>English styles have no element where a free hand is required - not for
>>jumping, not for fox hunting, not dressage. Nada. Two hands it has
>>always been, two it will always be .. or so it seems.
>
> You'd be wrong, there. You need to put the reins in one hand in order
> to weild a hound whip or blow a horn. Or open a gate, for that matter.
I stand corrected. English riders use one-handed reining <are they reining
there? lateral movement, etc?> to whip or blow the horn.
Opening and closing a gate is done at damn near a stand-still. Do a one-
handed stop and rollback on the fence turning a cow. Or making a tight 360
circling that bad boy up ... and it is NOT a 20meter circle... or a 10
meter ... I have seen some pretty hard rides done in a .. hmm.. damn
metrics ... err.. screw it ... 15 foot circle.
Ken Brown
> Ken Brown <nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns911167529E67Akr...@198.252.32.180...
>
>> Could you imagine a bridle horse
>> with a Western saddle arriving at a dressage event and placing high?
>> With a spade? That would shake up a few things, but the "requirements
>> of dress" to "preserve the sanctity and dignity" prevents such.
>
> So if I show up to do some western competitions in my dressage do-dads
> you think that will have no effect on my scores? Please.
Hmm ... there are requirements for long-sleeved shirts and a cowboy hat.
Western saddle is required in NRCHA. Hmm .. but I bet we can get a NICE
demonstration going .. you do a Western competition in English gear, get a
score, etc. and it doesn't really count, but you get judged, etc. That
will show how an "English" horse is just as capable fo doing Western work!
Or that it isn't.
A western bridle horse can do the same demonstration for the English crowd
at a show - same requirements for the show/manuevers, but just different
gear. I bet it will fly! And then both worlds get educated as to each
other's discplines and how the horse moves, reacts, etc.!
Ken Brown
news:20010903123358...@mb-fn.aol.com:
I have to agree .. "self" anything done by bit contact is an oxymoron. It
has to be!
Perhaps "proper carriage" is the term they are hunting for? And then we
have to get into the next issue ... if it is done by constant bit contact,
how proper *is* that carriage? Proper because some human decided it
"looked nicer" that way? Again .. not very horse friendly.
FWIW, I have the same whine and moan to the Western Pleasure crowd.. that
"lope" and collection stuff .. even though on a loose rein .. is NOT very
horse friendly. And how they got the horse to do it? Not very nice.
Kris Carroll
> I've asked this question before and I'll ask again. How is "self carriage",
> which in my mind says "the horse is carrying himself in a balanced position"
> achieved via contact on the mouth? In my mind self carriage would be much more
> evident if the horse carried himself in a balanced fashion with NO REIN
> CONTACT. Having the horse on contact seems to defy the term "self" carriage.
> maybe the term "self carriage" needs to be dumped and another term created?
It's a feel thing not a superficial appearance thing. I can show you, but
ask Jessica Jahiel if you need a written explanation. The contact is not
thrown away, it's there for support and adjustment as needed but when the
horse is light, in self carriage, there is no hanging on the horse's
mouth. And as we've discussed previously, dressage competition requires
that the reins aren't slack. That doesn't equal holding up a horse's front
end. In theory. Bad riding doesn't count. :) Sorry you don't get it, but
either train with someone or stop whinging in a newsgroup, month after
month.
Sue *might* know what she's talking about but you, Joyce, and Jorene do
not. I'm not sure what problem you have with Carol G, but every time she
posts something, all y'all rush over into the lunatic fringe and start
this same old attack. Yawn.
K
P&M back
Kris Carroll
> Has anyone ever considered a MAJOR overhaul of the English bit world?? To
> give these horses some relief? Different bits may actually allow for a
> lighter contact and demonstrate more finesse with the horse.
ROTFLMAO, get rid of your ridiculous saddle and then we'll talk.
K
Susan Dangar
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:87vgj0p...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> Kris Anderson writes:
> > I'm not sure where all those good western trainers are either. Whenever
> > I see them they're yanking the crap out of their horses faces, kicking
> > them in the shoulders, and jabbing the spurs into them to get their
> > attention.
>
> Don't forget hitting them in the face with a crop to teach them to "neck
> rein".
Who does this? I don't know too many Western types that ever carry a crop.
Susan Dangar
Eileen Morgan
Mostly we are making comparisons that don't work. My horses are trained in
specific ways for specific jobs, as are yours. I suspect you couldn't take
my event mare out and do a reining pattern with her tomorrow, and I really
doubt a western working cow type is going to romp home going even Novice at
an event.
Seems to me that most of this thread is an "I don't like your discipline,
and since you don't do what I do you suck" sort of argument. As such, I
think I will now bow out and if you'd like the last word, feel free to spout
off about how you are so much better based solely on tack and job.
I really think we can probably agree most riders are not well educated no
matter what the style they ride, and most horses, no matter what the
discipline, lack what I would consider essential basics on the ground and
under saddle.
Once we get past that, it really breaks down if you want to be style
prejudiced and becomes a barrage of my opinion vs your opinion. The answer
no doubt lies somewhere in the middle. Unlike you, I see merit in many kinds
of riding and many kinds of disciplines, and recognize that different
approaches and such don't necessarily have some heirarchy of "good" and
"bad".
Eileen Morgan
> Who does this? I don't know too many Western types that ever carry a
crop.
I watched a local yokel trainer guy doing this . . . western dude.
But again, I guess the point I was trying to get at that has been buried or
poo-pooed is that you need to look at good vs good if you want to talk about
training differences, not good vs bad.
The international dressage coach I have been working with took the reins
from me and said "now, you are her mouth and this is what I want" when we
were learning a new sort of signal last clinic. I could *barely* feel the
rein movements and this was something he wanted me to do at walk, trot, and
canter. Even if you ride FEI you are not necessarily pummeling your horse in
the sides and jabbing/cranking on the mouth. I will admit that I have had to
search for a good dressage instructor, but I have a regular coach and my
monthly clinic guy now and both are adamant about lightness and power coming
from the behind, not the front. It annoys me when people act is if all
people in any given sport field are the same. It just isn't true. That is no
more fair than me looking at the guy bleeding out his WP horses and tying
their heads up the night before a competition and saying "this is Western
riding".
CMNewell
>Opening and closing a gate is done at damn near a stand-still. Do a one-
>handed stop and rollback on the fence turning a cow. Or making a tight 360
>circling that bad boy up ... and it is NOT a 20meter circle... or a 10
>meter ... I have seen some pretty hard rides done in a .. hmm.. damn
>metrics ... err.. screw it ... 15 foot circle.
>
horse--gotta get out of the way of staff and hounds on those narrow
trails, or turn sharp coming off a fence to avoid hitting trees. Lotsa
rollbacks on the trails, too. One resaon there are several Arabs in
the field, perhaps <G>.
--CMNewell, DVM self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"Nature, when she made the Arab, made no mistake, and man has not yet been able to spoil him."
--H. Davenport
Kris Carroll
> YES, YES, YES! That is what I have been taught and how I ride - leg, leg,
> leg. Seat. Balance. The positioning of the ribcage is critical, not just
> in doing circles but when spins (especially more so perhaps). Drive from
> behind and keep the front end light!
Funny that's how I was taught too, but in a saddle in which you can
actually feel the horse. :)
> I have to agree ... I don't ride English, but I can sure tell when a horse
> is moving freely.
as in while racketing around cans or cows?
> They may not even like horses much ... makes me wonder WHY they have them
> and ride them?
Trolly flame bait. Yawn.
K
CMNewell
wrote:
>
>
>Mostly we are making comparisons that don't work.
Excellent observations snipped.
Awright, who let the goddam voice of reason in here, anyways?
Sheeit. I'm going riding.
\
Kris Carroll
> I had a woman try out a horse I had for sale years ago. She exhibited
in cross
> country, dressage, hunters, etc. with a fair amount of success. She considered
> herself an educated rider and was always taking clinics, lessons, etc. I
> pointed out to her that this horse had a tendency to be a bit heavy on the
> forehand and would pull given the opportunity. She rode him for a while and as
> she walked by I said something like "see, you're getting some of that
> heaviness from him I mentioned, he's pulling on you". She looked at me
and said
> "he's not pulling at all, he's quite light". As she's saying this I can
see the
> veins popping out on the backs of her hands and he's rooting on the bit
and his
> lips were getting pulled backwards by the bit. NOT my idea of light at all.
So from this you conclude english riding is all crap rather than this liar
is full of manure? And who's the fool?
K
Kris Carroll
> Do a one-
> handed stop and rollback on the fence turning a cow. Or making a tight 360
> circling that bad boy up ... and it is NOT a 20meter circle... or a 10
> meter ... I have seen some pretty hard rides done in a .. hmm.. damn
> metrics ... err.. screw it ... 15 foot circle.
Rather abusive on the hocks, cowboy.
K
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nospam...@positrakinc.com> wrote:
snip
>Who in the HELL would hit a horse in the face to teach them to neck rein??
Iggurant TWH/Saddlebred western wannabes <grin>.
Now for another tangent on discipline insulting....
jrw
John Hasler
> Who in the HELL would hit a horse in the face to teach them to neck
> rein??
Many local western trainers. And note that I put "neck rein" in quotes.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Susan Dangar <vsda...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
>news:tp7jtn9...@corp.supernews.com...
>> Who does this? I don't know too many Western types that ever carry a
>crop.
>I watched a local yokel trainer guy doing this . . . western dude.
If I saw an alleged Western trainer doing this, I'd sure wonder about
his background, that's for sure. For certain he's never been exposed
to proper Western methodology and is most likely self-taught (willing
to take a way broad guess at this). Neck reining evolves very
smoothly from the process of western snaffle training because you
start emphasising laying the rein on the neck and getting a turn off
the outside leg pretty early on, while deemphasizing the inside rein
as a turning cue. I've ridden greenies in the snaffle who at 60 days
or so were starting to get the hang of it and didn't need much inside
rein for turning cues. If any.
>But again, I guess the point I was trying to get at that has been buried or
>poo-pooed is that you need to look at good vs good if you want to talk about
>training differences, not good vs bad.
And no one is really looking at what *I've* been writing. I have had
poor hunt seat flat instruction, and I've had good hunt seat flat
instruction. As a rule, even the *good* hunt seat flat instruction
operates off of a firmer snaffle contact than what I encounter in
*good* western snaffle.
Go back and read what I wrote about riding the old Arab mare trained
to both English and Western snaffle. She switches gears based on
contact. In both methodologies, she has nice self-carriage. But when
you want English movement out of her, you take a slightly firmer
contact.....IF you want her to go round and correct and collected.
Otherwise she's hollowed and strung out and just plain going faster.
>The international dressage coach I have been working with took the reins
>from me and said "now, you are her mouth and this is what I want" when we
>were learning a new sort of signal last clinic. I could *barely* feel the
>rein movements and this was something he wanted me to do at walk, trot, and
>canter. Even if you ride FEI you are not necessarily pummeling your horse in
>the sides and jabbing/cranking on the mouth.
But what we are talking about is not necessarily pummeling in the
sides and jabbing and cranking on the mouth. It's a difference in
degrees of subtlety and it may relate to something as idiosyncratic as
a comparative stablity in the stirrup leathers when it comes to
English vs Western, for example--because the Western fenders are
heavier and therefore more stable at movement than an English stirrup
leather, it may be possible to do more with less because there's less
interference from the tack, or the fenders may be absorbing a lot of
leg movement in a Western saddle that horses learn to tune out in an
English saddle. That may account for the difference in leg usage.
The Western hand in the snaffle may also account for the difference in
contact. I have been told by a couple of hunt seat instructors that a
standard Western snaffle hand is "ineffective." (standard western
snaffle hand having the fingers more spread out and not tightly
clenched as is beloved among the offending hunt seat instructors).
To which my response is "Like hell it is. Tell that to Bob Avila and
a buncha other top Western hands..."
But...the standard Western snaffle is used with heavier, split reins
which do tend to support the hand and avoid collapsed wrists.
jrw
Eileen Morgan
Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:3b93f02...@news.aracnet.com...
> And no one is really looking at what *I've* been writing. I have had
> poor hunt seat flat instruction, and I've had good hunt seat flat
> instruction. As a rule, even the *good* hunt seat flat instruction
> operates off of a firmer snaffle contact than what I encounter in
> *good* western snaffle.
I did read it, I just didn't think I had much to add to it. I am not sure I
agree with you based on my own experiences with folks in my area doing my
sport, and the Western folks I have known or even the western trainer at my
dressage coach's barn. However, since we are very far apart and we also
cannot see what each of us is really talking about, I didn't think it was
worth it to wade in. :) Also, even when in a Western snaffle there is a
different goal in mind at the end of the process, and different tack under
your butt also.
You know, for years and years all the hunters around here were expected to
do the flat classes and in between the jumps on course with a slack rein.
Like, that was "the look" the whole time I was showing and some of the time
since then. Now I am seeing a more dressagy look to the hunters, but I'm not
sure how that is achieved because I am out of that world and have been for
some time.
When I go hacking out, I am not on contact for much of the ride as long as
my horse is in front of my seat and leg and trucking along nicely. I have a
slack in the reins and I'll let anyone who thinks Moonlight does not move
freely forward feel free to come along and watch us go--on contact or off. I
pull up on XC by putting my weight more down into the stirrups and standing
a bit more over her back. I do not think I am unusual for an event
rider--I'm better than some, worse than others. You cannot survive XC if you
are holding your horse up or hanging with your hands.
Tom Stovall
>> Could you imagine a bridle horse with a Western saddle arriving at a
>> dressage event and placing high? With a spade? That would shake up
>> a few things, but the "requirements of dress" to "preserve the
>> sanctity and dignity" prevents such...
Why mess with subjective stuff? Besides, you can't use a spade in a
dressage test.
>So if I show up to do some western competitions in my dressage do-dads >you think that will have no effect on my scores? Please...
Barrel racing is a western competition. You can show up at any barrel
race at any rodeo that will accept your entry fees and compete with any
kind of saddle, any kind of bridle, and any kind of bit. At most rodeos,
you'll have to conform to a dress code and you'll have to run a measured
cloverleaf pattern, but your hoss can wear whatever you feel will enable
you to go around the cans faster than the rest of the entrants.
Fastest time wins.
It'd tickle me to see somebody get the money in a flat saddle, but I'm
not holding my breath. Still, knowing barrel racers as I do, if somebody
did manage to beat 'em in a dressage saddle and double bridle, at the
next rodeo, at least a dozen horses would be wearing flat saddles and
two sets of reins.
Tom Stovall CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
Phetsy Calderon
<res...@deyr.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >Opening and closing a gate is done at damn near a stand-still. Do a one-
> >handed stop and rollback on the fence turning a cow. Or making a tight 360
> >circling that bad boy up ... and it is NOT a 20meter circle... or a 10
> >meter ... I have seen some pretty hard rides done in a .. hmm.. damn
> >metrics ... err.. screw it ... 15 foot circle.
> >
> Come hunting up here--it's pretty trappy country, and you need a handy
> horse--gotta get out of the way of staff and hounds on those narrow
> trails, or turn sharp coming off a fence to avoid hitting trees. Lotsa
> rollbacks on the trails, too. One resaon there are several Arabs in
> the field, perhaps <G>.
<chuckle> Yeah, in my crotchety old age, I've developed a rule for riding
partners: "Cowboys & Cavalrymen only." That includes huntin' types, most
emphatically!
Seriously, what little I've seen of Real Field Hunters (TM) looks not
unlike what we used to do up in the Gold Country cow pastures. Except you
English nut cases ride awful damn fast--on purpose, too!
Phetsy &
HRH Prince SF,
Who thinks fox chasing is a great excuse to get Western
Phetsy Calderon
<res...@deyr.ultranet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:07:27 GMT, "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mostly we are making comparisons that don't work.
>
> Excellent observations snipped.
>
> Awright, who let the goddam voice of reason in here, anyways?
> Sheeit. I'm going riding.
Dunno. Must be somebody new to rec. eq, doncha think? Hey, isn't there
something in the COE Scriptures about not letting reason spoil a perfectly
good thread?
Phetsy
=====================
Phetsy Calderon
phe...@earthlink.net
Death before dishonor; nothing before coffee.