nerving tails
lpgirl
daughter is dying to do the QH Shows and I was happy to let her. Now the
problems begin again. Her instructor was trying to convince me that her
horse's tail "needed" to be nerved. I refused stating that it was
against AQHA rules and my daughter is only 13 and I don't want her
thinking that rules do not apply to people wanting ribbons! I'm sure the
ruling is there for the protection of the animal. We were told that my
daughter would not stand a chance at the bigger shows if we didn't have
it done. My answer to that was "fine, we'll just do smaller shows".
Could I get some current discussion about this practice and why it would
be so important that a horse not use its tail. I read some discussion at
deja news but it was dated 1995 and people were saying this practice was
on it's way out. Well it's 2002 and some poor beast were trucked
yesterday(ours not amoung them) to have the tails "done".
--
If two people think exactly alike then one of them is not necessary.
RPM1
You either take an active part in that ugly fact or you don't. Your choice.
Ruth CM
Go here to see our horses and other stuff:
http://community.webshots.com/user/ironwood103
Eileen Morgan
"lpgirl" <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C9DCCD3...@earthlink.net...
> I found the perfect horse for my daughter after months of searching. My
> daughter is dying to do the QH Shows and I was happy to let her. Now the
> problems begin again. Her instructor was trying to convince me that her
> horse's tail "needed" to be nerved. I refused stating that it was
> against AQHA rules and my daughter is only 13 and I don't want her
> thinking that rules do not apply to people wanting ribbons!
Tails only "need" to be nerved if you are riding a horse which is 1) not
suited to the discipline, so more uptight than desired, perhaps 2) a horse
which is a little green and shows some nerves by swishing the tail 3) an
EXTREMELY UNETHICAL person who wants to cheat and also maim a perfectly good
horse.
Stick to your guns and start looking for a new trainer. I would not trust
someone who habitually nerves tails to win. This is someone with shady
ethics and *crappy* husbandry. If your horse has a nerved tail, how will he
swish off flies? Or does she not turn horses out (something most experts
consider essential for a content and healthy animal)? You most certainly can
show horses that live out--my five all live in a paddock with a run in shed
in Northeastern PA. I compete in dressage and eventing and I've done
hunters, jumpers, and pleasure.
Run. Run far away from this trainer.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
lpgirl
>
> Tails only "need" to be nerved if you are riding a horse which is 1) not
> suited to the discipline, so more uptight than desired,
He enjoys his job
> perhaps 2) a horse
> which is a little green and shows some nerves by swishing the tail 3)
He only swishes his tail when asked for a lead change and it is not a wringing
swish, just a swish
> an
> EXTREMELY UNETHICAL person who wants to cheat and also maim a perfectly good
> horse.
And this is where I have a problem. It seems the more into this showing business
that my daughter gets, the more weird stuff I encounter. My daughter loves the
kids at that barn or I do believe that we would already be gone. What I don't
understand is if it is against AQHA rules, why are people doing it? Can't you
tell if a tail has been nerved? The trainer said that "EVERYBODY" does it and if
you don't, then you will not get placed at larger shows. This just makes no
sense to me. My job as a parent and pet owner is to look out for the best
interest of those that can't look after themselves so I will be sticking to my
guns on this one. 1. My daughter needs to learn that cheating doesn't make you a
winner no matter what color the damn ribbon is, and that morally speaking it is
wrong. 2. I can't believe that this can be in the best interest of the animal. A
horse uses his tail for balance and the swishing of flies, so a dead tail seems
to me inhumane. I guess I just need to know why a horses tail swishing would be
considered a bad thing? And why are horses who have had their tails nerved, not
disqualified?
>
>
> Stick to your guns and start looking for a new trainer. I would not trust
> someone who habitually nerves tails to win. This is someone with shady
> ethics and *crappy* husbandry. If your horse has a nerved tail, how will he
> swish off flies? Or does she not turn horses out (something most experts
> consider essential for a content and healthy animal)? You most certainly can
> show horses that live out--my five all live in a paddock with a run in shed
> in Northeastern PA. I compete in dressage and eventing and I've done
> hunters, jumpers, and pleasure.
>
> Run. Run far away from this trainer.
>
> Eileen Morgan
> The Mare's Nest
> http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
--
RPM1
> It seems the more into this showing business that my daughter gets,
> the more weird stuff I encounter.
So, what does that tell you?
CMNewell
>... We were told that my
>daughter would not stand a chance at the bigger shows if we didn't have
>it done...
She'll stand even less of a chance if she's tossed out of the AQHA for
doing it, or if the horse suffers permanent nerve damage and is
therefore barred for life.
My advice? Find an ethical trainer to work with. I wouldn't stay with
this specimen even if you win the argument.
CMNewell, DVM
The Chuck of Eq
self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"You can be perverse, a horse cannot." --TvG
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Stick to your guns and start looking for a new trainer. I would not trust
>someone who habitually nerves tails to win. This is someone with shady
>ethics and *crappy* husbandry.
Absolutely, totally agreed. I'd also add that this is a clear sign of
someone more interested in training by shortcut...what's gonna be
next? What gimmick or "training aid?" Trust me, there's others
waiting.
Run away, run away. This is someone more interested in colored pieces
of fabric than in true, honest performance from a well-trained horse
and rider.
jrw
lpgirl
RPM1 wrote:
> "lpgirl"
> > It seems the more into this showing business that my daughter gets,
> > the more weird stuff I encounter.
>
> So, what does that tell you?
> Point taken! We have a lot of thinking to do around here.
> Ruth CM
> Go here to see our horses and other stuff:
> http://community.webshots.com/user/ironwood103
--
Wendy
> Her instructor
> was trying to convince me that her horse's tail "needed" to be
> nerved.
I'm glad to hear you're not going to do it. There was a lovely
QH in my lesson barn in Florida whose tail was twisted up over
his back and to the side, in a spiral. This had happened
somehow either when it was nerved, or maybe after? I don't
know... it was before he came to this barn.
I asked about it when I first got there, and my instructor
explained what had happened. Lad had to be kept inside when the
bugs were bad, and wore lots of pink SWAT ointment, because he
couldn't swish his tail at the bugs.
My instructor thought that the proper punishment for the people
who did this to him would be to tie their hands together and
plop them on top of a fire ant mound. :)
Even if your daughter likes the other children at this barn,
this is NOT an ethical trainer. Who knows what other things
s/he is teaching these kids, or allowing to happen?
--
Wendy in Chandler, AZ
John Hasler
> I found the perfect horse for my daughter after months of searching. My
> daughter is dying to do the QH Shows and I was happy to let her. Now the
> problems begin again. Her instructor was trying to convince me that her
> horse's tail "needed" to be nerved.
Find a new instructor _immediately_.
> ...people wanting ribbons!
If all she wants is ribbons she doesn't even need a horse. Ribbons can be
purchased from suppliers such as Burt Awards for as little as $2.00 each.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
John Hasler
> The trainer said that "EVERYBODY" does it and if you don't, then you will
> not get placed at larger shows.
Not placing in such a show would be something to be proud of. Why would
you want to receive a ribbon from a judge who condones animal abuse?
JJ
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net> wrote in message
news:Caln8.663$nx6.6...@monger.newsread.com...
Couldn't say it any better than this! Well put! Run as fast as you can!
JJ
JJ
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:877ko1n...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> lpgirl writes:
> > The trainer said that "EVERYBODY" does it and if you don't, then you
will
> > not get placed at larger shows.
>
> Not placing in such a show would be something to be proud of. Why would
> you want to receive a ribbon from a judge who condones animal abuse?
Ipgirl,
Have to agree with John here. This type of thing goes on because people get
talked into it by unethical and lazy trainers. The only way(s) to stop this
sort of thing is 1) don't participate, 2) switch trainers and if someone
asks you why TELL them, 3) if your horse only moves his tail during a lead
change I doubt a judge would mark off for that (but I don't know much about
QH shows) and if he/she does, oh well. It wouldn't be much different than
judges that mark arabians lower in dressage (no matter what the competition
looked like or how good their test was) or a really great hunter round from
a plain jane horse vs. a flashy (but ill mannered) one, on and on and on...
Horse shows are subjective and you'll face this no matter what you do. Just
teach your daughter the right things (which it seems you will do - so good
for you) and have FUN! Having fun and having a happy horse is what it's all
about!
Take care, JJ
Lou W
Against the rules means zilch to many, the Olympics and banned
substances are proof
enough of this. If people think something will give them an edge X number
will take advantage
legal or not.
Lou
Sigen 3
>And this is where I have a problem. It seems the more into this showing
>business
>that my daughter gets, the more weird stuff I encounter. My daughter loves
>the
>kids at that barn or I do believe that we would already be gone. What I don't
>understand is if it is against AQHA rules, why are people doing it? Can't you
>tell if a tail has been nerved? The trainer said that "EVERYBODY" does it and
>if
>you don't, then you will not get placed at larger shows. This just makes no
>sense to me. My job as a parent and pet owner is to look out for the best
>interest of those that can't look after themselves so I will be sticking to
>my
>guns on this one. 1. My daughter needs to learn that cheating doesn't make
>you a
>winner no matter what color the damn ribbon is, and that morally speaking it
>is
>wrong.
What a great example you are for your daughter!! WOOHOO! You go Mom!
>2. I can't believe that this can be in the >best interest of the
>animal. A
>horse uses his tail for balance and the swishing of flies, so a dead tail
>seems
>to me inhumane. I guess I just need to know why a horses tail swishing would
>be
>considered a bad thing? And why are horses who have had their tails nerved,
>not
>disqualified?
The kind of people who would nerve a horses' tail simply can't be bothered with
the welfare of the horse. Period. They only care about winning. The reason
they nerve a tail is that if a horse is unhappy, it may wring or even swing
it's tail. This can make an "unpleasant picture" for the judge. They want the
horses to zombie around the ring, with no ear pinning, or tail movement at all.
People are disqualified, if they are caught. If you *know* that someone is
showing a horse that has a nerved tail, you should report it to the show
steward. They will investigate, and take the proper actions according to the
rules. There are simply too many horses showing to test every single horse, so
(at least at USA Equestrian shows) they will random test the horses at some
shows, and not at others. They don't let you know which shows, or which horses
they will test, so anyone cheating is taking their chances.
The same goes for any other abuse. If you see it, report it. It takes guts,
but it is the right thing to do. Until people do start reporting abuse it will
continue, all for the sake of a ribbon. Disgusting isn't it?
>>
>> Run. Run far away from this trainer.
>>
>> Eileen Morgan
>> The Mare's Nest
>> http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
>
I second that advice. Your daughter will make new riding buddies, and if any
of the other moms ask why you are leaving, maybe you could educate a few of
them too:-)
Good luck!
CM Higdon
Ken Brown
> People are disqualified, if they are caught. If you *know* that
> someone is showing a horse that has a nerved tail, you should report it
> The same goes for any other abuse. If you see it, report it. It takes
> guts, but it is the right thing to do. Until people do start reporting
> abuse it will continue, all for the sake of a ribbon. Disgusting isn't
I agree with you. Don't just "run far away from the trainer", drop a
quarter.. or $.35 or whatever, and rat 'em out. Just walking away doesn't
do anything to stop the abuse and someone else will take your place. One
person walking away won't do anything to effect the economic bottom line of
a trainer. Being banned from showing will certainly make a more powerful
impact and can actually result in the practice being stopped.
If it really means something, then *DO* something about it. Otherwise, it
is all just hollow words and bullshit to make yourself feel better "because
I care."
------------------------------
Those of you that think you know
everything about horses really annoy
the hell out of us that know we don't.
Gary & Lois Edwards
Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:3c9e018f...@news.aracnet.com...
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:13:54 GMT, "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@enter.net>
> wrote:
I would not trust
> >someone who habitually nerves tails to win. This is someone with shady
> >ethics and *crappy* husbandry.
Joyce wrote:
> Absolutely, totally agreed. I'd also add that this is a clear sign of
> someone more interested in training by shortcut> Run away, run away. This
is someone more interested in colored pieces
> of fabric than in true, honest performance from a well-trained horse
> and rider.
> jrw
Speaking as a 4-H leader and trainers aide, let me chime in here too. You
are doing the right thing by sticking to your moral code......and you are
teaching your daughter all the right things as well. As someone above said,
there is no honor winning from a judge who actively condones abuse......or
one who is so unobservant that he/she can't spot a horse who has been
"tampered with" and won't mark down accordingly.
Lois E
Leader of the Millennium Riders 4-H group of Walla Walla
(Hey, the kids picked the name:)
Slakkie
you to win. My old gelding had been done so many times his was crooked and he
lost most of the hair (all done before me). Also horse have died and been
crippled from this idiotic notion.
Nowadays many people are putting a fake tail in to weigh the tail down to have
the horse pack it better. I think that is a great alternative.
My colt now holds his tail out a bit and he will NOT be getting his tail done
EVER. If a judge can't look passed a tail and look at the horse then I really
don't care about their opinion.
And for all the people who tell you that you cannot win without doing their
tails, ask them about Karen Evans Mundy and All In Silver. All in Silver holds
his tail WAY UP and he won the Ammy All Around and is a multiple WC.
So try a pound or two of added tail and I will guarantee that will help
tremendously.
Jodie
RPM1
> Nowadays many people are putting a fake tail in to weigh the tail down to
have
> the horse pack it better. I think that is a great alternative.
<snip>
> So try a pound or two of added tail and I will guarantee that will help
> tremendously.
Horse's need their tails for fine balance. I, personally, WANT to see
a horse round out his tail while in work. Especially high level action.
The more the better! It means he's using his body most effectively.
Some folks could really use a few courses in equine bio-mechanics.
Starting with judges.
Slakkie
>a horse round out his tail while in work. Especially high level action.
>The more the better! It means he's using his body most effectively.
>
>Some folks could really use a few courses in equine bio-mechanics.
>Starting with judges.
You are correct however if given the choice between stabbing a horse with
alcohol (or whatever they use nowadays) and adding a pound or two of tail I
would choose the extra tail weight.
The horse can still use his tail easily it just holds it down more when the go
around.
It is a much MUCH better choice then ruining a horse for vanity's sake.
Jodie
Robby Johnson
teaching your daughter right.
Robby
"lpgirl" <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C9DCCD3...@earthlink.net...
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<gar...@bmi.net> wrote:
snip
>Speaking as a 4-H leader and trainers aide, let me chime in here too. You
>are doing the right thing by sticking to your moral code......and you are
>teaching your daughter all the right things as well. As someone above said,
>there is no honor winning from a judge who actively condones abuse......or
>one who is so unobservant that he/she can't spot a horse who has been
>"tampered with" and won't mark down accordingly.
>Lois E
>Leader of the Millennium Riders 4-H group of Walla Walla
>(Hey, the kids picked the name:)
Hey Lois!
Ever get down to PDX?
Let me know if you do....no trips planned here to Walla Walla soon,
but who knows....
jrw
BrenPaint
>Horse's need their tails for fine balance. I, personally, WANT to see
>a horse round out his tail while in work. Especially high level action.
High level action? At a QH show? Stop, Ruth, you're killing me!! LOL
Seriously, as the dressage folks know, horses use their tails for balance. The
stock horse breeds are light years away from that realization at present. They
want NOTHING to move in the pleasure and equitation classes...manes, tails,
heads, necks...and just barely the legs (just kidding).
The current trend in the stock horse breeds is as Jodie mentioned in a previous
post - not only must the horse not swish its tail, but they like them to "pack"
it well, which means like a Brazilian thong on a college girl. Sucked right up
in there!
My mare flags her tail when in heat (which is always unless bred). One trainer
suggested nerving or doing alcohol blocking. Told him I would not and he would
just have to get over it. He won on her anyway. Go figure.
Bren
It's not the end of the earth, but you can see it from here
Sarah
cents....
It's very difficult to catch someone who has done a tail if the tail
is showing no signs... For instance, in my barn we have two horses
that have tails that have been done (not by us, bought this way for
trail/pleasure horses because the quality of the horse was so high
that the tail issue was a minor consideration). One's tail is VERY
obviously crooked, it's cocked to the left. The other one looks like a
normal tail, you'd never know it's been nerved. The horse still
retains some use of it, just not the normal amount of use.
I have to agree and say stand up to this trainer... It's your horse,
and therefore it's ultimately your decision whether to have this done
(which I would advise against). Your daughter can place and even win
classes at Quarter Horse shows with this horse if he is a quality
horse. His tail will only be a deduction if he uses it severely. And
if he uses it a little, as someone else suggested, try putting a bit
of a false tail in. This worked great for my last horse, he laid his
tail right down for the pleasure classes.
My advise -- stick to your guns, and do what you think is best. You're
being a wonderful role model for your daughter.
Sarah
lpgirl <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3C9DCCD3...@earthlink.net>...
Slakkie
>stock horse breeds are light years away from that realization at present.
>They
>want NOTHING to move in the pleasure and equitation classes...manes, tails,
>heads, necks...and just barely the legs (just kidding).
>
>The current trend in the stock horse breeds is as Jodie mentioned in a
>previous
>post - not only must the horse not swish its tail, but they like them to
>"pack"
>it well, which means like a Brazilian thong on a college girl. Sucked right
>up
>in there!
>
LOL Bren I love your thong analogy!!! And don't be picking on those WP type
too much there is a certain minimal Paint gelding whose feelings may be hurt if
Auntie Bren picks on him!!!
But the tail obsession is a bit much for me I am not gonna do anything to
Mick's, natural is fine with me!!
Jodie
Melanie Coffman
writes:
>Having shown QH for about 10 yrs now, I thought I'd add my two
>cents....
>
>It's very difficult to catch someone who has done a tail if the tail
>is showing no signs...
I'd have to say you've been staring at too many nerved tails to not recognize
them other than by a kink or twist. I've stayed out of this for a bit watching
others' reactions but it's time to air an "outsiders" opinion. I don't show
AQHA, though I own one. I wouldn't show him AQHA if I was paid at this point.
The practices that make a winning WP horse are down right scary, abusive and
condoned. It must be accepted at the highest levels or those horses wouldn't
be winning. There is a 13 yr old at my barn shopping for a made QH and near
every video she's received has featured a horse with a nerved tail and gimping
along on a sore front end. The only horse I can recall viewing that wasn't at
that point was a 3 yr prospect and the rider kept reaching back to push the
tail down. There is a 12yr old mare with a nerved tail in my barn and all it
takes to realize something isn't right is to watch her walk down the aisle or
look in her stall. Her tail and back legs need a daily bath otherwise the urine
and manure collect and reek to high heaven. (Especially more enjoyable when
it's braided.) Her tail flat doesn't move. She was a Youth and now Ammy horse
and has been owned by the same gal since she was 3. Everything that's been done
to her was recommended by top trainers and accepted as what you do if you want
to win. (And win they did...the highest placing I believe has been 9th at Youth
Congress.) Both owner and parents knew it was illegal, but if Congress is a
goal... I guess moral and ethical values are not a priority.
I wasn't an expert at spotting a nerved tail when I started watching these
videos but I can damn sure tell what's a normal amount of movement and what's
"dead". It sure seems odd that if nerving tails is illegal and deserves being
overlooked in the arena that these horses would be commanding $18,000 to
$30,000 asking prices.
Melanie
RPM1
> High level action? At a QH show? Stop, Ruth, you're killing me!! LOL
I know, I know. So, what's the point of not having a tail move anyway?
IS there a point? If there is, does anyone even know it anymore or is it
just because folks noticed that horses with clamped tails were getting
pinned so ... when in Rome... A WP horse is supposed to be a
"pleasure" to ride? Why, because it barely moves? One would be
better off with a scooter.
Once again, horses are abused in the name of ribbons (which eventually
translates to money). If it's supposed to be illegal then at the end of
every
class the riders must be able to =prove= somehow that their horse's tail
works properly. Good grief, if I can see how ridiculous the whole concept
is SURELY those involved (owners, vets, judges, spectators...) can!
It's all just another steaming pile of vomit being allowed to dry on the
carpet of the horse world. Watch your step folks!
Slakkie
>IS there a point? If there is, does anyone even know it anymore or is it
>just because folks noticed that horses with clamped tails were getting
>pinned so ... when in Rome... A WP horse is supposed to be a
>"pleasure" to ride? Why, because it barely moves? One would be
>better off with a scooter.
Lets not forget that the NRHA allows tail blocking as well and those horse ARE
doing more intense movement where their tail could be used. So it is not just
WP.
Jodie
Ken Brown
> Lets not forget that the NRHA allows tail blocking as well and those
> horse ARE doing more intense movement where their tail could be used.
> So it is not just WP.
How do you figure? "Allows" is a rather strong word. I've never seen one
with a blocked tail.
Slakkie
>with a blocked tail.
>
I figure because it is not illegal and the fact that many trainers discuss it
as part of their training as excessive tail wringing takes away from the
picture. Check their rules and see it is perfectly legal.
How is allow a strong word? It is just a word and when you have no provision
keeping something from being done it is just a plain fact.
And the fact you have not seen one means you probably just did not know one has
been done. If done *properly* the horse should have movement of their tail
just not the ability to have a lot of excessive movement. A dead tail means
they screwed it up.
THe biggest issue of tails is most vets will not do them (and I do not blame
them) and so you have trainers stabbing horses and screwing them up.
Jodie
BrenPaint
>LOL Bren I love your thong analogy!!! And don't be picking on those WP type
>too much there is a certain minimal Paint gelding whose feelings may be hurt
>if
>Auntie Bren picks on him!!!
Jodie, I would NEVER pick on the wonder gelding!! But let's be honest - there
are some WP classes I cringe while watching.
I show WP myself - BUT, I learned long ago to let my mare move at her natural
gaits and not try to slow her down further, so that she bobs her head, four
beats and appears crippled. I still have to push her because I had one trainer
teach her to four beat and when she is tired or lazy, she will revert to that
awful gait (grrrrrr).
Ruth, many WP horses today are bred to move slower and level, and to have
little knee action. Unfortunately, for those horses that this movement does
not come natural, some trainers think the solution is to crank their speed down
until they lose all cadence. Nerving tails and droppping heads even lower
makes some trainers think they will gain an edge.
Why do these horses get pinned? Well, like anything, if that is all the judge
has in front of them at the time, he has to pin them. I have heard judges
bemoan this fact.
I know my horse is not the WP ideal. I have the attitude of, here she is,
either you like her or you don't. And too bad if you don't. Because I do.
And I have much more fun showing that way!
Ken Brown
>>How do you figure? "Allows" is a rather strong word. I've never seen
>>one with a blocked tail.
>>
>
> I figure because it is not illegal
Your figuring is dangerous and fallacious. I bet when you went out as a
kid and your parents said "behave" it left the door wide open to rob,
murder and pillage because it wasn't specifically prohibited.
It is not "illegal" as it is not specifically prohibited ... OK, gotcha.
In that case, I reckon an awful lot of organizations allow all sorts of
things because they are not prohibited. Including mounting rocket boosters
onto your saddle to improve speed and in the case of reiners to mount
bottles of water on their hind legs to spray water on the ground so they
can slide farther. It isn't prohibited, so those rocket boosters and water
bottles must be legal.
Your thinking reminds me of "high school logic".
> and the fact that many trainers discuss it as part of their training
"many" trainers? How many do you know or have met? None of the reining
trainers I know of in this state (10-12) advocate or nerve tails. I reckon
in your neck of the woods life isn't quite so rosy, eh?
> as excessive tail wringing takes
> away from the picture. Check their rules and see it is perfectly
> legal.
I have their rulebook, do you? It is not specifically prohibited, no. But
abuse and inhumane treatment is covered. As is discipline for conviction
by a court of law and the reciprocity of recognizing, and
enforcing/punishing, any other recognized equine organizations disciplinary
actions.
And if your horse's tail isn't flowing nice or sticking out there when you
are hauling ass, that takes away from the picture. A horse's tail won't be
wringing if you have done your job right. You are probably thinking "oh..
they have so few wringing tails so they must be nerved". Bzzt. I suggest
you are unfamiliar with what you speak and that a horse trained decently
and having some temperament to perform the tasks will not wring its tail.
> How is allow a strong word? It is just a word and when you have no
> provision keeping something from being done it is just a plain fact.
Interesting logic. I bet you want the government to legislate your entire
life for you, don't you? Your thinking is specious and down right
dangerous. Think "high school".
> And the fact you have not seen one means you probably just did not know
> one has been done.
I didn't say I have never seen a nerved tail, I said I haven't seen one at
a reining. I know of one, and only one, horse that has a nerved tail: WP
horse someone bought to do trail riding after it retired.
> If done *properly* the horse should have movement
> of their tail just not the ability to have a lot of excessive
> movement. A dead tail means they screwed it up.
I see.. and I bet you have this from first-hand experience. Your knowledge
seems to be pretty extensive.
> THe biggest issue of tails is most vets will not do them (and I do not
> blame them) and so you have trainers stabbing horses and screwing them
> up.
No trainers I am aware of or associate with .. this does not mean it
doesn't exist, it means I have not seen it. And FYI, I know about 80% of
the reining trainers in this state. I said "know", not "know of". And
that means, at a minimum, "many" reining trainers don't nerve tails in this
state.
Slakkie
>In that case, I reckon an awful lot of organizations allow all sorts of
>things because they are not prohibited.
Ken are you mentally unbalanced??? I hate to break it to you but there are
reiners out there that have their tails done....don't freak out it is not the
end of the world it is just a fact.
And Ken before you start flinging insults around you may want to watch who your
flinging dirt at, all I have said is that there are reiners out there who have
their tails done and that they don't give them a dead tail but instead restrict
the movement.
Yes Ken I know a lot about tail jobs, I show WP types. I choose NOT to have my
horses done I personally think it is ludicrous and irresponsible but just
because I have knowledge doesn't mean I agree it means that I have asked
questions to determine the logic behind something I think is stupid.
And because you know 10-12 trainers NO TRAINER does tails. Ken I think you are
the one who has the fuzzy high school logic.
Jodie
Slakkie
>are some WP classes I cringe while watching.
Hey Bren sometimes I want to get behind some of the horses and PUSH them faster
some look like they are dragging 1,000 lbs behind them as they lunge around the
arena <blech>!!!!
Jodie
Ken Brown
>>It is not "illegal" as it is not specifically prohibited ... OK,
>>gotcha. In that case, I reckon an awful lot of organizations allow all
>>sorts of things because they are not prohibited.
>
> Ken are you mentally unbalanced???
Some would propose that idea. But it doesn't change the content of a post,
does it?
> I hate to break it to you but there
> are reiners out there that have their tails done....don't freak out it
> is not the end of the world it is just a fact.
I never said there wasn't such critters. I objected to its purported
commonality (according to you) and your sweeping statement that "many
trainers do it".
> And Ken before you start flinging insults around you may want to watch
> who your flinging dirt at, all I have said is that there are reiners
> out there who have their tails done and that they don't give them a
> dead tail but instead restrict the movement.
Nobody is flinging insults, I am attacking the veracity of your posted
words. You said it is done "by many trainers" and to that I object, atl
east down in these parts. As I noted in a follow-up, it may be common in
your neck of the woods, but it isn't common here.
> Yes Ken I know a lot about tail jobs, I show WP types.
I was vaguely familiar with the practice, but never knew it was so wide-
spread until seeing the posts here. I know a WP trainer and we discuss
training issues from time-to-time. Funny, but tail jobs are not a topic of
discussion. Again, I reckon I run in different waters than yourself.
> And because you know 10-12 trainers NO TRAINER does tails. Ken I think
> you are the one who has the fuzzy high school logic.
Read again. I know 10-12 of the reining trainers in this state. Of which
there are 15 of any talent or clientele. I was stating that your "many
trainers" remark doesn't fly in this state. it might be done commonly out
your way, but it is simply not a fact down in these parts.
In the future, when you say "many trainers" you might wish to restrict it
to your own limited geographic area and experience.
Slakkie
>
>Some would propose that idea. But it doesn't change the content of a post,
>does it?
Well it does I hate to argue with someone who is unable to comprehend even a
simple logical conversation. Actually the fact that you became so incensed and
beligerant it shows you want to fight not discuss.
>Nobody is flinging insults, I am attacking the veracity of your posted
>words. You said it is done "by many trainers" and to that I object, atl
>east down in these parts. As I noted in a follow-up, it may be common in
>your neck of the woods, but it isn't common here.
Oh Ken puh leez you attempted to rip me to shreds however you and your salvos
missed. I said MANY not all...many trainers means more than one and less than
all and pretty much the same as but a bit more than some. You indicate you
know a whopping 10-12 trainers, I know many more than that. Do they walk
around crowing about their horses tail jobs??? I doubt it but it is done and
is a quick fix to a horse with a busy tail. Just a fact.
>I was vaguely familiar with the practice, but never knew it was so wide-
>spread until seeing the posts here. I know a WP trainer and we discuss
>training issues from time-to-time. Funny, but tail jobs are not a topic of
>discussion. Again, I reckon I run in different waters than yourself.
Well than the trainer you discuss things with probably does them and is afraid
to tell you. Most of the trainer/judges talk about how they hate a dead tail
but go through their barns and MANY (again for Ken that means not all but more
than 1) will inevitably have a tail job. Remeber it is ILLEGAL so no people
don't usually run around talking about it...not gonna see the barn calendar
with a date circled with the words "Dr Smith to block tails 9 a.m." it doesn't
mean it isn't done.
As I said many (again Ken more than 1 less than all) people are adding fake
tails to their horses to get them to pack their tails down. I personally feel
this is a much better option then tail blocking. And for you and your fuzzy
logic skills I will say again I do not agree in tail blocking and will not do
it or pretend I agree with it.
>I was stating that your "many
>trainers" remark doesn't fly in this state. it might be done commonly out
>your way, but it is simply not a fact down in these parts.
And again Ken since you did not know they blocked tails in WP have you ever
thought that you DON'T know if the reiner trainers are doing it either?? Do
you ask them all?? Did you ever think that most trainers don't run around
telling people they have to cover up a horses' busy tail with a block?
>In the future, when you say "many trainers" you might wish to restrict it
>to your own limited geographic area and experience.
>
Ken I probably have been around more cow horses and know more people than you
think. And with the invent of the Internet I also talk to people. And since
you don't know me or where I am you have no idea if I live down the block.
Again Ken let's recap, tail blocking is not prohibited in reiners but is if
they show AQHA as AQHA makes tail blocking illegal. Many (again Ken to not
confuse you many means more than 1 and less than all) WP/HUS types are adding
tail to their horses instead of blocking. I, as a person who disagrees with
the practice, think this is a good thing.
Jodie
Ken Brown
>>> Ken are you mentally unbalanced???
>>
>>Some would propose that idea. But it doesn't change the content of a
>>post, does it?
>
> Well it does I hate to argue with someone who is unable to comprehend
> even a simple logical conversation. Actually the fact that you became
> so incensed and beligerant it shows you want to fight not discuss.
I am not incensed, nor beligerant. I did disagree with you, however.
Given the rest of your post, you are merely trolling. I won't play.
P.S.
One = 1
Couple = 2
Few = more than a couple, less than many
Many = more than a few, less than a majority
Majority = over half.
All = all.
> Ken I probably have been around more cow horses and know more people
> than you think.
I don't preconceive what you think. I will leave preconceptions and self
aggrandizement in your capable hands.
> And with the invent of the Internet I also talk to people.
Now *there's* a super reliable fountain of information. Ms. Anonymous.
> And since you don't know me or where I am you have no idea if
> I live down the block.
You can't live down the block, otherwise you would be lying by saying many
reining trainers (in this state) use a tail block. So far, you haven't
shown yourself to be a liar, just misinformed and prone to exaggeration.
------------------------------
Slakkie
>Given the rest of your post, you are merely trolling. I won't play.
ROTFLMAO Yeah you look like an idiot so you take your ball and go home...good
try!>One = 1
>Couple = 2
>Few = more than a couple, less than many
>Many = more than a few, less than a majority
>Majority = over half.
>All = all.
And the point???? I said many which is not all so you proved my point over
yours thanks.
>I don't preconceive what you think. I will leave preconceptions and self
>aggrandizement in your capable hands.
Ken considering you don't know me how do you know what I know and don't know.
Me thinks your ego is bruised and you don't like it when someone stands up to
your bravado and ignores your temper tantrums. Instead of flaying around like
a jackass you would have been better off attempting a discussion.
>Now *there's* a super reliable fountain of information. Ms. Anonymous.
How am I anonymous? I give you my e-mail address and there are many people on
here that know me, you judged me without any knowledge of me or my knowledge on
the subject.
And what I meant is I have talked to many people that live in other areas so my
knowledge is not just of my area in my anonymous state in which I live. You
know it is called expanding your knowledge. Many people on this newsgroup like
to share knowledge and give insight. You just seem to want to be angry, and
you call me a troll <g>.
>You can't live down the block, otherwise you would be lying by saying many
>reining trainers (in this state) use a tail block. So far, you haven't
>shown yourself to be a liar, just misinformed and prone to exaggeration.
Since you have not indicated what state you are in how can you be so sure? And
when did this conversation EVER entail trainers only in your anonymous state.
You indicated that you never even knew there was such a thing as tail blocking
until recently but are sure NO ONE you know does it but yet as far as I know
you have never asked. And you call me ignorant....When pressed with facts you
try to call me a troll <LOL> Good try Ken, but you missed again!
Jodie
Catherine Mee
Clarify something...When you say "many trainers"...is this many WP
trainers or many reining trainers?
As I understand it, Ken is talking about reining trainers and has taken
issue with the idea of "many reining trainers nerve tails", especially
how it applies to his area. How I read it, he is not at issue with "many
WP trainers nerve tails". I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong....
Catherine
Slakkie wrote:
>I said MANY not all...many trainers means more than one ..........
Slakkie
>
>Clarify something...When you say "many trainers"...is this many WP
>trainers or many reining trainers?
>
>As I understand it, Ken is talking about reining trainers and has taken
>issue with the idea of "many reining trainers nerve tails", especially
>how it applies to his area. How I read it, he is not at issue with "many
>WP trainers nerve tails". I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong....
>
>Catherine
When I said many I was talking about reiners and I meant it how it was stated
meaning some or more than a few but less than all. Tail blocking is not just
for WP it is done by other disciplines. And other associations do not have
rules making it illegal as the AQHA and APHA do, just a fact.
Ken wants to slam me without knowing me and doesn't want to open his eyes or
admit he is not all knowing. If he wants to believe no reiner has done a tail
block so be it. Denial doesn't mean it does not happen.
Jodie
Catherine Mee
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
Now a question since you are familiar with and (I gather by your
statements) show reiners..this is true, correct?
Anywhooo...
Since reining is not about the same type of "subdued" (or muffled or
just plain squashed) affect and manner of going as WP, why would a
reiner want a nerved tail unless it was to hide an irritated horse. But
reiners, as I understand, don't care and are not marked regarding a tail
carrage reflecting collection, speed or work. In fact I gather that WP
way of going is totally undesirable in RH. Or, are these reiners you've
seen who have been nerved, possibly failed WP horses who are now in
reining..IOW, the nerve job wasn't done while the horse was doing
reining work.
I just can't see *why* a reining trainer would desire a nerved tail,
outside of hiding an irritated horse.
BTW, where are you located?
Catherine
Ken Brown
<snippage>
I have better things to do than play your semantic games and watch you
argue for arguments sake, without benefit of fact or a common ground of
definition.
Slakkie
>argue for arguments sake, without benefit of fact or a common ground of
>definition.
Which means in Ken-speak I have no argument and I can't be logical so I will
attempt one last salvo and run. Bye Ken!!!!!
Jodie
Slakkie
>statements) show reiners..this is true, correct?
Yes, I used to train in a very famous Reining trainers barn and have friends
who show reiners. I grew up in and around cow horses and used to ride them.
>Since reining is not about the same type of "subdued" (or muffled or
>just plain squashed) affect and manner of going as WP, why would a
>reiner want a nerved tail unless it was to hide an irritated horse. But
>reiners, as I understand, don't care and are not marked regarding a tail
>carrage reflecting collection, speed or work. In fact I gather that WP
>way of going is totally undesirable in RH. Or, are these reiners you've
>seen who have been nerved, possibly failed WP horses who are now in
>reining..IOW, the nerve job wasn't done while the horse was doing
>reining work.
FWIW and totally off subject my yearling is going to be a WP horse however he
will be doing reining as well at a later date. He is very athletic and a
natural lead changer. Not all WP horses have to move like they are about to
die and lunge around the arena......but back to the topic <g>.
Catherine it is not the *up* as much (which is the bigger issue in WP/HUS
horses) but the side to side movement...I call a *busy tail* some horses swish
just because and some swish because they are sour and some because the idiot
training them doesn't know what they are doing. If tail blocking is done
correctly they can block this type of movement and this is why I am told some
reiners do it.
The injections are not done in just one jab, they hit different areas areound
the tail to add desired traits. I watched one tail job and there were 4 or 6
actual injections (it made me sick so I did not count but it was at least 4).
>I just can't see *why* a reining trainer would desire a nerved tail,
>outside of hiding an irritated horse.
Bingo. Basically the same reason why many WP/HUS horses are done. Again if a
tail block is done correctly it is not a *dead tail* in fact if you did not
know what to look for a tail block will most likely not ever be detected by
someone. If it were so easy to detect then it would be easy to pick out the
people who do them.
>BTW, where are you located?
>
I live in North Carolina now but I used to show in and around the west coast
mainly California <g>
Jodie
Slakkie
>>statements) show reiners..this is true, correct?
>
>Yes, I used to train in a very famous Reining trainers barn and have friends
>who show reiners. I grew up in and around cow horses and used to ride them.
Just a clarification I do not show reiners now I have shown reining a bit but I
show WP types (or will again once my yearling grows up). I realize that I was
not clear.
Jodie
lpgirl
Melanie Coffman wrote:
We're leaving our lesson barn and looking for another trainer. We have also decided
not to get involved with AQHA and are going to revert back to an occasional open
show and trail riding. After a lot of discussion, and tears from my daughter, she
came to the conclusion that it was the love of horses that brought her to this
sport. Not the love of showing or the love of first place ribbons. She loves her
new horse and old pony too much to be a part of what we BOTH now consider a seedy
industry. Thanks for laying this out on the line so plainly.
Jill Mobley
thread. Showing is fun, most people at AQHA shows are nice, most love the
horses. I know this at least holds true for me. AQHA has a lot to offer both
in and out of the arena.
Jill Mobley
Irresistible Bett
www.bigfoot.com/~jmobley
"lpgirl" <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CA1C9BD...@earthlink.net...>
Ben Turner
<Xns91DDC4344A0FCkr...@198.252.32.180>:
-<snip>-
Every now and then we have the opportunity to note that there
is frequently more than one meaning to a word. While I could
contentedly converse, argue, and reach agreements employing your
stated definitions, they are not unique. For example, employing
(IMO) relevant, in-context online citations from the American Heritage
Dictionary [ahd] and the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary [mwcd]
and the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary [mwud]:
>Couple = 2
OR: "Two or few" [ahd], "an indefinite small number : FEW" [mwcd] and
[a small number/measure where the use of the phrase "a couple of"
itself conveys the writer's indifference to the exact number, ahd]
>Few = more than a couple, less than many
OR: "consisting of or amounting to only a small number" [mwcd]
>Many = more than a few, less than a majority
OR: "consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number" [mwcd]
and "The populace; the common people; the majority of people, or of
a community" [mwud]
BTW, I encountered a horse with a nerved tail way back at a
lesson barn--sad. Ironically, it was about the same time I learned about
gingering. Over time, both camps tend to sound equally self-righteous.
Any [one, some, every, or all without specification, ahd] seems too many.
--
Best,
Ben Turner, Mare's Reach Farm
bturner VV ida VVV org
AT DOT
END{print;}
($_="DBkizanciPMJzQJaRezPaHqMJz")=~tr/nizaDcHBMPeJkqQR/nt\naJocuehlrskti/;
Karen Rust
"lpgirl" <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message:
> We're leaving our lesson barn and looking for another trainer. We have
also decided
> not to get involved with AQHA and are going to revert back to an
occasional open
> show and trail riding. After a lot of discussion, and tears from my
daughter, she
> came to the conclusion that it was the love of horses that brought her to
this
> sport. Not the love of showing or the love of first place ribbons. She
loves her
> new horse and old pony too much to be a part of what we BOTH now consider
a seedy
> industry. Thanks for laying this out on the line so plainly.
Kudos to you! I don't know you but I am proud of you and of your daughter.
You are making a very large, positive difference in her life with this
decision and I'm sure neither of you will regret it. This industry needs
more riders/moms like you and this world needs more people like you. Get the
heck outta dodge and don't look back!
-Karen
www.klassicalkaren.com
Helen
> "lpgirl" <lpg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message:
>
> > We're leaving our lesson barn and looking for another trainer. We have
> also decided
> > not to get involved with AQHA and are going to revert back to an
> occasional open
> > show and trail riding. After a lot of discussion, and tears from my
> daughter, she
> > came to the conclusion that it was the love of horses that brought her to
> this
> > sport. Not the love of showing or the love of first place ribbons. She
> loves her
> > new horse and old pony too much to be a part of what we BOTH now consider
> a seedy
> > industry. Thanks for laying this out on the line so plainly.
>
Yeah! Good on you!!!