wobbly front legs
Johdug
I gave a lesson today to a young woman on a quarter horse gelding. I had never
seen this horse before today. To be brief, after about 25 minutes I noticed
that the horse's front legs would sort of "jiggle" and do a sort of wobbly
jerky motion at the walk. It's hard to describe. I've never seen this before.
I asked the girl if she could feel it, and she said she had noticed it before.
It was only her 3rd time riding the horse, and she said that when the horse
stood still to be groomed that his front legs wobbled and jiggled a bit while
standing still. I became concerned and told her that I didn't want to
continue. I was concerned that the work was making it worse, and I was afraid
that he might literally buckle at the knees and fall down.
She dismounted, and as we walked back to the barn, I noticed that the horse
literally dragged the front of his toes (on his front feet) along in the sand,
and even did it while on concrete. It was as if his front legs couldn't hold
him. The girl riding him was not the owner, but the owner told me later that
when she bought the horse, she had his feet AND KNEES x-rayed because his knees
looked funny to her. He is what I call "over at the knee", base narrow and
pigeon-toed.
When she bought him, she told the vet that he jiggled his knees all the time
when standing still, but he couldn' t find anything "wrong" with him. (!!)
The only way I can describe it to you would be.... if you've ever been standing
in line, and your legs get a little tired or maybe you get impatient and you're
a little "ansy", perhaps you would shake your legs so that your knees would
bend forward just a bit, going back back and forth kind of rapidly while your
feet stay planted.
This was the first time I have ever been to this lady's farm, first lesson and
now she is looking to me for advice. Obviously, I told her to have the vet
look at him. In the meantime, I was just curious if any of you have ever seen
this. Obviously, the horse's front leg onformation isn't very good. Surely,
this isn't "wobbler's" is it? I thought that was in the hindlegs. This horse
is 6 years old, a super quiet horse and sound in every other way.
Any thoughts?
johdug-jen
Tom Stovall
[deletia]
> The only way I can describe it to you would be.... if you've ever been standing
> in line, and your legs get a little tired or maybe you get impatient and you're
> a little "ansy", perhaps you would shake your legs so that your knees would
> bend forward just a bit, going back back and forth kind of rapidly while your
> feet stay planted.
Any Impressive in the beast's pedigree?
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am.
HHamp5246
>Any Impressive in the beast's pedigree?>
That was my first thought too... HYPP. Could the symptoms be muscle related?
If the horse is a QH, HYPP would be easy to find out with a blood test.
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/ILuvBrady/summer2004.htm
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting
"...holy shit...what a ride!"
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Tom wrote:
>
>>Any Impressive in the beast's pedigree?>
>
>That was my first thought too... HYPP. Could the symptoms be muscle related?
>
>If the horse is a QH, HYPP would be easy to find out with a blood test.
Yeah. This sounds like a potentially HYPP horse I rode at the barn.
Staggery and a bit scary even at the walk.
jrw
Johdug
her machine. I hope she has papers on the horse.
So, this wobbly front leg thing sounds like a symptom of HYPP? I don't know
what I thought the symptoms were, but it seems I have heard that HYPP horses
"lock up" and such things. I think this woman has owned this horse for about 2
years, and he has been shown and even jumped by his former owner.
He sure is a sweet horse and what a cute head. But what a BIG BUTT and
muscle-y forearms. Maybe he is an Impressive descendant.
I'll let you know what I find out.
johdug-jen
Nancy DeMarco
seen in over-at-the-knee horses, and it's probably no big deal.
Basically, certain muscles have to sustain a contraction in order to
stabilize the joint while it is loaded.
In a sustained contraction, a muscle fiber will receive stimuli in
rapid succession, which can lead to "unfused tetanus" - a sustained,
but wavering contraction.
If you want to google something, try "unfused tetanus," or maybe "wave
summation."
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
Johdug
>If I'm understanding your description, it is something I have often
>seen in over-at-the-knee horses, and it's probably no big deal.
Well, I'm glad you have seen something like this. I hope you are right!
>If you want to google something, try "unfused tetanus," or maybe "wave
>summation."
I'm on it! Thanks,
johdug-jen
Justridin
>pedigree by any chance?
Read up on HYPP. If the horse does this "All the time" and it only seems to
effect the front legs it's very doubtfull that it's HYPP related.
Lori
Johdug
grandsire is Investor. Is Investor by Impressive?
johdug-jen
Corey Kaye
> I just spoke with the horse owner. His papers go back 3 generations.
> His grandsire is Investor. Is Investor by Impressive?
The only possible Investor at www.allbreed.com is a 1960 Thoroughbred
The all breed database is far from complete or accurate, but it give you a
place to start.
I also suspect that the horse just shakes cause he's over at the knee. I've
seen a couple TB's that do that. Weird, but not a big deal.
Corey
Corey Kaye
> I just spoke with the horse owner. His papers go back 3 generations.
> His grandsire is Investor. Is Investor by Impressive?
Oh, just noticed there is a "The Investor" QH stud on the allbreed site.
He's by Zippo Pat Bars, and has no Impressive.
Corey
Johdug
>The only possible Investor at www.allbreed.com is a 1960 Thoroughbred
I found the Investor's bloodlines, and he is not an Impressive relations.
Thanks for your help, though.
>I also suspect that the horse just shakes cause he's over at the knee. I've
>seen a couple TB's that do that. Weird, but not a big deal.
I think you and Nancy DeMarco are right about this. I've never seen this
myself, but it sounds like it isn't that uncommon with over at the knee
conformation.
johdug-jen
John Hasler
> I also suspect that the horse just shakes cause he's over at the knee.
> I've seen a couple TB's that do that. Weird, but not a big deal.
"Over at the knee" somtimes improves with conditioning.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>I just spoke with the horse owner. His papers go back 3 generations. His
>grandsire is Investor. Is Investor by Impressive?
Not sure but I think so.
jrw
Johdug
>"Over at the knee" somtimes improves with conditioning.
Do you have any experience with this? I stopped the lesson with this horse
because the instability at the walk and then the bad toe dragging concerned me.
I was surprised to hear that the horse was jumped successfully with a former
owner. The current owner says that she has never seen the instability that I
pointed out to her on Saturday.
I wonder if it was there before, but she just never saw it, or if it really is
something new. (I'm only referring to the toe dragging and jerky walk...she
says that he has always done the wobbly leg thing while standing still)
I found very little internet information on "unfused tetanus". If anyone finds
a good site, please share the link with me!
Thanks,
johdug-jen
Tamara Howard
> He's by Zippo Pat Bars, and has no Impressive.
>
yes but what was his mammy ?? <g>
Tamara in TN
Nancy DeMarco
>I found very little internet information on "unfused tetanus". If anyone finds
>a good site, please share the link with me!
It's not a problem - just normal muscle physiology. Same thing you see
when weight lifters shake while holding up a big load.
I have to go now - taking the MIL on a duck tour. Will try to post
later.......
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
J. Z. M.
> have to go now - taking the MIL on a duck tour. Will try to post
> later.......
Good Lord! Which tour??? Into Boston for the day? I always wanted to know
if those tours were worth it, so, was it worth it?
Shaking legs now: I have seen a few, nothing but standing still was when
they shook, it was more like a tremble. The horses trotted and cantered
adequately, and if the trembling is not "all the time" I would not give it
much thought especially since the vet said it was *fine*. If the vet had
misgivings I'd be far more suspect. :)
Is it a cheap horse? Cheap enough to use it and try it out? Sometimes price
can be a factor in what we will and will not accept in a horse IME. If it
was a big ticket horse is there is no way, no how, I'd accept it even if the
vet said maybe. It's a deterrent if YOU want to sell it eventually. My 2
cents.
Jody
Johdug
re: Investor by Impressive?
>Not sure but I think so.
I looked it up, and Investor was by Zippo Pat Bars by Three Bars (a TB).
johdug-jen
Nancy DeMarco
>Good Lord! Which tour??? Into Boston for the day? I always wanted to know
>if those tours were worth it, so, was it worth it?
It was fun, actually. :) There is some obligatory quacking, except in
the designated "No Quack" zones. In the no quack zones, they ask that
we meow, since there are no "No Meow" zones yet. There will be. :)
The history is fun - lots of stories and anecdotes, lots of humor.
Passengers get to drive the duck on the Charles.
We went to the "Adrenaline Rush" movie at the Museum of Science Omni
Theater, and it, well, kinda s*cked. None of the stomach-dropping
stuff that I look forward to - just endless footage of sky diving,
test-dropping DaVinci's pyramidal parachute, jumping off of cliffs...
but the footage was from someone falling at the same speed as the
subject, so no adrenaline rush for us.
All in all, though, a fun day. :)
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH (where several locals do claim to have seen a big cat within
the last 18 months, including one interrupted horse attack 1/4-mile
down the road)
Johdug
>It's not a problem - just normal muscle physiology. Same thing you see
>when weight lifters shake while holding up a big load.
Yes, that is what I likened it to. But it was a little scary when the horse
was buckling at the knees after 20 minutes of basic flatwork. He simply looked
"whipped" the way he was dragging his toes. I guess it is possible that he was
EXTREMELY out of shape.
I suppose it could improve enough to enjoy him. ?
johdug-jen
Johdug
<snip excitement over Nancy's duck tour>
>Shaking legs now: I have seen a few, nothing but standing still was when
>they shook, it was more like a tremble. The horses trotted and cantered
>adequately, and if the trembling is not "all the time" I would not give it
>much thought especially since the vet said it was *fine*. If the vet had
>misgivings I'd be far more suspect. :)
Like I said, he was so wobbly at the walk that it concerned me. However, I
must say that his trot was just fine. And the walk at the beginning of the
lesson was evidently fine, because I didn't notice it then.
>Is it a cheap horse? Cheap enough to use it and try it out?
I don't know what she paid for the horse 2 years ago, and I think she adores
him as a trail horse. I'm sure he's worth every penny to her for that aspect
alone. However, she wanted to let another girl ride the horse and do ring work
and take lessons. That's where I came in.
I don't know what she'll do next.
>My 2
>cents.
I'm glad to get them! :-)
johdug-jen
Johdug
>yes but what was his mammy ?? <g>
I asked the owner if she saw any names on the papers that had the word
"Impress" or "Impressive", etc. There was nothing like that.
I guess it is still possible, but I would think that if Impressive were in his
bloodlines anywhere, there would have been a registered name that led down that
path, wouldn't you think?
johdug-jen
Eileen Morgan
>Any thoughts?
My beloved departed TB mare was a bit over in the knee (as was her
sire, grandire, and great grandsire when I saw photos--she was in the
Wajima line). She never buckled at the knees when she was a young,
working thing, but after she had been retired some time due to hind
end lameness, she went through a period of time where she would look
like she was going to crumple up front. It was weird. I put her on
joint suppliments and ponied her for a bit at the walk to build her up
and she quit doing it. She was a pasture ornament and had been for
years at that time; I reckoned the front was doing too much support
due to the weakness of the liagaments and tendons behind, where the
real problem lay.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
Eileen Morgan
>Nancy DeMarco wrote:
>
>>It's not a problem - just normal muscle physiology. Same thing you see
>>when weight lifters shake while holding up a big load.
>
>Yes, that is what I likened it to. But it was a little scary when the horse
>was buckling at the knees after 20 minutes of basic flatwork. He simply looked
>"whipped" the way he was dragging his toes. I guess it is possible that he was
>EXTREMELY out of shape.
Sounds like a tick bourne disease when you put it that way. Has he had
a workup for any of the alphabet soup diseases afflicting horses? EPM
your way?
The over in the knee horses I've known only did the buckling thing
when there was some other problem (old mare, already lame) and they
didn't when engaged in work; none wore their feet oddly, either.
Johdug
>Sounds like a tick bourne disease when you put it that way. Has he had
>a workup for any of the alphabet soup diseases afflicting horses? EPM
>your way?
yes, we have plenty of EPM out here. But I don't think this horse shows any of
the EPM symtoms from my brief encounter with him. I"m pretty convinced now
that his conformation and his lack of fitness were the reason for his wobbly
knees.
I trust that the owner will make the appropriate decisions about where to go
from here.
Thanks again from all who gave input on this! :-)
johdug-jen