My Mare's Problem & Mine (Long)
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
Bring on the wolves, my flesh is now exposed.
What I am hoping for is someone to tell me after reading my story is a
few ideas to solve the problem.
I know that some of you though are going to go after blood, as usual.
Some of you are going to make stupid comments about how I can't ride
(wrong) or how I abuse my mare (wrong). But seems that's what some of
you think is fun. Poking figures at people instead of offering real
ideas to help.
Oh well. :-(
Well, I'm off for the weekend so enjoy it.
BTW – thanks to all the people who offered me help privately.
But as we discovered I have done all the “ground work” and “re-training”
from the beginning. No this was an abused horse and I need an innovative
idea.
Where to begin.
At the being I guess. Though it was almost 3 years ago.
My mare's name is DeeDee. She is a 12 year old QH. She is 16.2 and
weighs over 1500lbs. She is a big, barrel chested, bumble butt horse.
She is EXTREMELY muscle bound. She also has a short neck and carries her
head like an Arab. She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
Unfortunately I didn't do a good enough examination before I bought her.
I wouldn't be here telling you my problems if I did.
I bought her in the winter. Her owner said she didn't been ridden in 3
months due to the weather and her new foal.
I only was able to ride her in the corral, so she acted up a bit. I
expected that. The owner held her while I got on. She was difficult to
ride but I didn't think much of it. She had a great personality and
ground manners so I was sure she would be fine with a few hours under
her. Boy was I wrong.
When I first got her to the farm she was instantly the lead mare. She
took on the gelding and that was that. But once out in the field she had
little interest for me. Catching her was a chore. I would bring out the
oats and shake the pail. All the other horses would come running over.
She would just stay there.
Finally she learned what the pail was about, but that was only half the
battle.
Try putting the lead rope on her. HA! She always would slip past you,
that included knocking you down to get away.
I don't need to explain the other problems, other then they are now
fixed.
She is better now on those issues. But she doesn't trust anyone but me.
Not even my husband. He can't get near her at all, or anyone. It took me
about the first 6 months but I won her trust.
Now she comes to me when I call her. She loves her belly rubbed and when
taking food from me is SO gently she's like a baby.
Shortly after buying her spring came and we started working. When I
first get a new horse I make sure they have full ground training. So
that is where we started.
She leads great. Stays in the right position, stops when I stop; goes as
I step, you don't even need to ask her to move. She also stands.
On to lunging. This too was great, with a few reminders.
She walks, trots, canters and canters trots, walks. She will stop
in-between each step if asked and will go from stop to canter if asked
as well. She even backs up! She is always looking at me and pays full
attention.
She stands still for grooming, vet care, and saddling.
We then went over some more ground techniques. First the basics then
more advanced. We worked on wheeling/spinning. Turn the front legs
around the back. And reverse.
I made sure to sack her out. No problems. She's completely sound.
So far everything seems great.
The first farrier appointment was real bad. I had been using the same
guy for quite some time. I had noticed that DeeDee’s hooves were long
when I got her. Anyhow, the guy has no problem with her front feet. Then
he moves to the back. As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him. He
caught it and went flying. That was the end of that for the day.
I got someone else to come out and trim her the second farrier had the
same fate.
At this rate I was running out of farriers.
So the third farrier comes along. I tell him about the other two. I
think he's just going to leave. He doesn't. He looks her over and says,
“She all muscle bound up”. “She can't lift up her back legs.” And so
when he lifts up the back hoof he barely takes it but a couple of inches
off the ground and presto it works.
As you try and lift her leg up too far, her muscles bunch up and it is
painful and she kicks out.
To this day this farrier now does all my horses.
So this hurdle is now over.
So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It
has been about a month and a half.
She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in
the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
come off a horse real easy. So with one foot in and the horse up in the
air I swing the other leg over. Her head is as far up as she can get it
and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side. But
with just a snaffle on her head and her thick neck is too strong. I
can't get her down. Finally it happens, she throws herself over
backward. I got out of the way at the last second, else I’d be in the
hospital.
As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to
come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to
let go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
I had a good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in
and prevent her from rearing. Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways. Ouch, my leg hurt.
So,
First I call the vet to make sure I haven't missed a problem in her legs
and back. Nope she's fine. I call the horse chiropracter, she too says
things are great.
I take her to his guy I know who makes saddles to check on the fit.
Everything there if fine.
So,
I call the guy a bought her from and he doesn't give me much info about
what he's done to her. So I ask for the breeders number. They tell me
she was always a “hot” horse and after green-breaking her, they had
considered shooting her. But instead sold her to the guy I bought her
from.
I went around the area and asked people if they ever saw this guy out
riding DeeDee. A lot had. Later I got the guy to admit how he rode her.
For the 6 years he had rode her hard with spurs and did nothing but
gallop her and then get off. The poor horse.
Things made sense after that.
So where things are at now are as follows:
I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from
time to time. When it's off she's worse.
The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
minutes.
If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field, I can
have someone lead me around for hours (so long as I don'’ touch her
barrel).
Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with
a heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. No
good.
I even rode her in sock feet, so that the boots didn't touch her. Nope.
The other trainers that she has seen have all met the same fate I did.
Rear up and over.
I told them so, they didn't listen.
For the most part I think she is just going to have to be a pet. I don't
want to put her down and I can't sell her.
I have my own “good” horse to ride and 2 others I’m training. But I
don't like to just give up on something.
Jennifer
Digi Lady
<big snip>
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
>mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
You mentioned a vet, a chiropractor. How about a dentist? Big time.
<smaller snip>
>I try and pull her down and to the side.
No. Ask her to move forward. They can't rear if they're moving
forward.
>with just a snaffle on her head and her thick neck is too strong. I
>can't get her down.
But you can move her forward!
<medium snip>
>I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
>any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from
>time to time.
Without knowing what your dentist will say, this is a toughie. Shed
the tie-down, for sure. She's freaked out enough without worrying
about extra equipment.
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
>ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
>minutes.
BTDT. Had my horse with 3 different trainers about this "legs off"
problem. Right now, he's at trainer #4.
This sounds like a difficult, very! mare. I think what others here
have been saying is that all this extra hardware isn't going to fix
her. Ever. They're correct. You may have achieved an uneasy truce (on
your part) by the usage thereof, but the *mare* is miserable &
displays this.
>If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
>What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
This is where your *next* trainer comes in. What area do you live
near? Betcha if you ask, someone here knows a great trainer
thereabouts.
<snippage>
>Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with
>a heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. No
>good.
Twas me, I'd forget the "talking" thing. Find a (really good) trainer,
who will do the deed in person.
<small snip>
>For the most part I think she is just going to have to be a pet. I don't
>want to put her down and I can't sell her.
>I have my own “good” horse to ride and 2 others I’m training. But I
>don't like to just give up on something.
Don't give up, yet. Try Trainer #4. !!
good luck,
Cat (who already HAS trainer #4!)
TrinityApp
You mare needs to have a big session of desensitizing. Tie her up and rub
and pat her all over. Everywhere and anywhere you can reach then use a
blanket and a crop and touch her all over with them too. Standing next to
her put pressure into her sides and talk gently to her until she realizes
that something pushing on her doesn't mean run. I've had to do this to
several OT Tab's and it works if you use patience. If the snaffle is causing
problems go to a bosal, get the teeth checked too, but ditched the tiedown.
Trust me a horse can flip with a tiedown on and when they do they usually
really injure themselves. Lunge her saddled with the stirrups flapping until
she doesn't react to them. You have a long road ahead of you, but you also
have some safety issues you need to consider and work around. I wouldn't
ride her until you get her ground manners up to par.
--
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
Trinity Appaloosa Farm
Horse Diary Day 1010 Threw a shoe, Oh darn now I can't
be ridden. Human had a fit and said several bad words.
Glad I'm not the farrier, but then I'd have to annoy me so
that wouldn't be fun. Turned out for now, what a chore, eating
and relaxing all day. Flies are bad, nothing seems to get rid
of the little beggars. Pity they aren't grass flavored. Trooper
stepped on the cat-beast, hahaha serves the demon right, but
I'd sniff my feed box before eating if I was Trooper, the cat
is sneaky. More later.
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote in message
<37AB177F...@hotmail.com>...
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>Where to begin.
>At the being I guess. Though it was almost 3 years ago.
>My mare's name is DeeDee. She is a 12 year old QH. She is 16.2 and
>weighs over 1500lbs. She is a big, barrel chested, bumble butt horse.
>She is EXTREMELY muscle bound. She also has a short neck and carries her
>head like an Arab. She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
>She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
>Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
1.) Has this mare been checked for HYPP status? Just wondering if
that might not be a factor, especially with the muscle-bound stuff.
2.) What's her feed like?
snip
>She is better now on those issues. But she doesn't trust anyone but me.
>Not even my husband. He can't get near her at all, or anyone. It took me
>about the first 6 months but I won her trust.
>Now she comes to me when I call her. She loves her belly rubbed and when
>taking food from me is SO gently she's like a baby.
Sounds like a real dominance issue (and yes, she sounds like ol' Bucky
Spot that I'm wrestling with; very similar build and behavior but Spot
doesn't rear, thank heavens, elsewise I wouldn't get on her, period).
Have you tried round pen work with her? You may have her *trust*, but
do you have her *respect*? As I've noticed with Spot, you can love
'em up all you want, and they'll eat it up, but when push comes to
shove she won't respect you.
snip
>As you try and lift her leg up too far, her muscles bunch up and it is
>painful and she kicks out.
>To this day this farrier now does all my horses.
>So this hurdle is now over.
Equine massage been checked out?
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It
>has been about a month and a half.
>She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
>mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
>The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
>this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Are you still using the simple jointed snaffle? Have you tried other
snaffles? I've found that some QHs have fat tongues and low palates,
and my old Sparkle mare (who *did* have a tendency to rear and was
trained in a mechanical hack, although her only physical similarity to
DeeDee was a thick--but long--neck) absolutely, totally, completely
despised a jointed snaffle but went very quietly in a mullen mouth
curb. Jointed snaffles can bang the palate of these horses' mouths
and make them *very* unhappy, as well as pinching their tongues. I'd
look at a French link (get a book if you don't know the difference
between a French link and a Dr. Bristol, which looks very similar but
exerts tongue pressure and is more severe, which Is Not A Good Idea
with these horses). I'd also look at mullen mouth and straight bar
bits. Those wouldn't be the usual choices (especially the straight
bar) but before I got the mullen mouth curb I put Sparkle into an old
Garcia thin straight bar (Gregg tells me the spade had probably been
cut off of it; he has one very much like it in his antique collection
except it's a full spade) with a short shank that I'd borrowed from my
uncle (and would beg and plead to have back now) which she liked very
much.
Did you try long-lining her? That also might be a good idea. Let her
have her tizzy fits and fights sans tiedown and let her learn that it
isn't gonna get rid of the saddle and bridle, plus lets her know that
she isn't gonna get hurt unless she fights.
>Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in
>the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
>come off a horse real easy. So with one foot in and the horse up in the
>air I swing the other leg over. Her head is as far up as she can get it
>and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side. But
>with just a snaffle on her head and her thick neck is too strong. I
>can't get her down. Finally it happens, she throws herself over
>backward. I got out of the way at the last second, else I’d be in the
>hospital.
Now here's what I would have done different. First, I would have
ground driven her. Second, I would have bailed, worked her on the
ground, then worked on leaning on her back, just like a green-broke
colt who's never felt weight on his back. No stirrups, just leaning.
Maybe I would have even gone to putting a sack full of sand or
something like that on her back and letting her walk around without a
rider until she was calm about the weight and the bit (obviously you
rushed her since she wasn't happy about the bit).
Then I would have gone to weight in the stirrup, and worked her until
she was calm about that. Then weight, lean on the saddle. Weight,
swing leg over back. Break down each and every step of the mounting
process until she accepted it without a fight. Same with riding.
Mind you, this would not have happened in one session. I'd have given
it quite a few sessions, however much time it took to get her to
accept everything calmly without fighting.
What I suspect is that both the breeder and her previous owners rushed
her into under saddle work, and you compounded their errors by pushing
through this session instead of realizing that she was scared (that's
what she sounds like to me) and fighting. When I said take her back
to the beginning in one of my posts, I meant what you do with a
greenie under saddle, as in lots of work on the ground with bridle and
saddle, long-lining/ground driving, bitting up and that sort of thing.
Sounds like she still needs that.
>As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to
>come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
>While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to
>let go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
>I had a good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in
>and prevent her from rearing. Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
>in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways. Ouch, my leg hurt.
You let her suck you into a fight. Big mistake with these horses.
I've owned one like that, and even so I almost let another with a
similar mind (ol' Bucky Spot) suck me into another fight. You can't
let them piss you off into a battle. Find a minor point where you can
concede it was a good day, and leave off at that.
snip
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
>ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
>minutes.
>If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
That's the unfortunate effect of the previous rider. Ground driving
might help. Another trick would be to load up a couple of sacks with
plastic pop bottles and strap them to the saddle horn, then turn her
loose in a corral or round pen to jump and buck and fight for a while
until she accepts them. Might have to do this several times until she
calms down. Also work on using your hands as leg cues on the ground,
lots of desensitization work involved.
snip
>I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field
What about the bridle? Do you have a space where you can put saddle
and bridle on her, let her walk around for a while chewing on the bit
and mouthing it until she's comfortable--for that matter, where are
you putting the bit when you put it on her? Are you cranking it up
for wrinkles or are you checking to see where it's comfortable for
her?
Frankly, I wouldn't climb back on her until she's completely
comfortable with walking around with a bit in her mouth on her own,
plus ground driving without major blowups (from what you've said, I
suspect your first ground driving sessions could be very exciting--be
prepared and use very long reins, perhaps even a lunge line).
I would also set yourself very small, baby step sort of goals in
working with her. You may have to look for teensy tiny concessions
for a very long time before you get a lot of results.
I'd also cut out a lot of lovey-dovey stuff and be totally
businesslike with this horse. When she does something good and right,
then she gets an attention reward. Otherwise, nothing. She has to
*earn* your loves. The reason for this is that she gets the reward of
your attention without having to produce good behavior for it
otherwise. You want her to be in the frame of mind where she wants to
please you and cooperate with you as well as trusts you.
If you can find the Jefferies Method tapes, I'd also recommend those
as an overview for some possible additional techniques. Sheila's got
the details on those somewhere. I also recommend Henry Blake's _Horse
Sense_ book. Wish I'd read it before my encounter with Spot this
week.
Good luck.
jrw
Dawn Lawson
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote: (major snippage throughout)
> But as we discovered I have done all the “ground work” and “re-training”
> from the beginning. No this was an abused horse and I need an innovative
> idea.
Brace yourself, because it this is truly all the details, there is lots
missing.
> She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
> She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
> Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
Collecting exercises are WAY not going to help..she needs to STRETCH, not
collect. What kind of exercises are you talking about?
> As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him. He
> caught it and went flying. That was the end of that for the day.
> I got someone else to come out and trim her the second farrier had the
> same fate.
> At this rate I was running out of farriers.
Why weren't you working on correcting this problem, and how come you didn't
know that she couldn't lift up her hind legs? Surely if you were working
her every day you had included hoof care and would have lifted her hind
legs, and surely after the first farrier you worked on the problem? It
doesn't sound like it from your details. "all the ground work" would
include handling hind feet.
> As you try and lift her leg up too far, her muscles bunch up and it is
> painful and she kicks out.
Why not gradually encourage her to stretch. Muscles can be relaxed and
stretched over time, and as she builds confidence, she'll be less inclinde
to hold herself tightly.
> I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
> mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
> The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
> this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
What if you just hang the bit in her mouth for a while, without riding her?
What was she ridden in by the breeder and previous owner? Have you tried a
french link? Or a mullen mouth?
> Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle.
Why, when it was fairly obvious that she wasn't comfortable with the bit?
Why not address that first problem first?
> As soon as I get one foot in
> the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
> come off a horse real easy.
Saddle bronc isn't a ladies event, so I will assume you mean it
figuratively. If her mouth/bit was bothering her, and you steadied her as
you mounted (fairly normal behaviour) you may easily have triggered the rear
to get away from mouth discomfort.
> As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to
> come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
But didn't address the possible CAUSES of her behaviour, but went straight
for the gadgets.
> While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to
> let go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
> I had a good seat and some extra leverage
I dunno what the good seat had to do with it, you had leverage, that is what
changed. Still not teaching her much, though.
> They tell me
> she was always a “hot” horse and after green-breaking her, they had
> considered shooting her.
Sounds like if the breeder found her this wacky right away, it's nothing to
do with the next owner's riding....
> I went around the area and asked people if they ever saw this guy out
> riding DeeDee. A lot had. Later I got the guy to admit how he rode her.
> For the 6 years he had rode her hard with spurs and did nothing but
> gallop her and then get off. The poor horse.
But she was nearly a canner BEFORE that. Did he talk about her rearing?
> I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
> any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from
> time to time. When it's off she's worse.
Of course.. you aren't teaching her anything. You're just preventing the
problems from appearing. Not stopping them at the source
> The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her.
What are you doing to address that problem?
> I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field,
yikes. be careful doing that. what if she gets a leg through a stirrup?
or rolls on your saddle?
> I can
> have someone lead me around for hours (so long as I don'’ touch her
> barrel).
well, if you don't start, you won't get anywhere. what does she do if she
is being led with you up and you touch her sides? Do you have a horse you
can pony her off of? Can you lunge her with something on her sides?
> Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with
> a heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. No
> good.
> I even rode her in sock feet, so that the boots didn't touch her. Nope.
I don't think the trouble is that she is too sensitive, but that she needs
to relearn what leg means, starting from scratch. Remember that prior to
this, for a few years, legs were simply accelerators. Patience, and careful
observation and continued building on prior success. I had a mare who was
ridden like what you describe..spurs, harsh bit, and all go-go go....but she
gradually learned that she was ok, and calmed down. Took OFF harsh
gadgetry, went to snaffle, taught her to bend, and kept things slow for a
while. If you can get her to walk at all, you can get past this.
What about clicker training? What about rewards for small bits of decent
behaviour? Sounds to me like she doesn't know whta you want to replace the
poor behaviour with. OR, she could truly be a nutter, I have known a line
of horses with a screw loose.
I don't think from your description that you have tried everything. It
sounds like you have stayed with the tying of her head, and a few dead end
attempts to fix some of the other problems. Wihtout seeing her reactions, I
find it hard to suggest what to do, but I see lots of holes in the training
from your description.
Just my opinion, based on my experiences and learnings. I'm willing to
discuss rationally any misconceptions I picked up in the reading, or things
you didn't talk about.'
Dawn
Bodacious Bhodisattva
>... She also has a short neck and carries her
>head like an Arab. She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
>She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
>Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
Luck doesn't exist, and collection isn't achieved with the reins.
The horse is behind the bit from abuse of the headgear, and
is only suffering more such abuse.
>...She was difficult to
>ride but I didn't think much of it...
If only you'd think enough to get yourself riding lessons.
>On to lunging.
Do you have any idea how to encourage a horse to
go round on the line?
Do you know you should do so before attempting to
work on gaits and transitions at all?
>...She's completely sound...
According to your vet?
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral.
Even though the poor horse can't lift its hind legs, you did this ...
>It
>has been about a month and a half.
>She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
>mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
>The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
>this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Have you ever checked the mouth conformation of the horse?
>Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in
>the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
>come off a horse real easy. So with one foot in and the horse up in the
>air I swing the other leg over. Her head is as far up as she can get it
>and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side. But
You just love to hurt that poor horse on the head, don't you.
>with just a snaffle on her head and her thick neck is too strong. I
>can't get her down. Finally it happens, she throws herself over
>backward. I got out of the way at the last second, else I’d be in the
>hospital.
Hasn't anyone ever shown you how to mount properly, and get
a horse trained for that first?
No wonder you'd cluelessly claimed that some horses can't be
expected to stand for mounting.
>As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins.
You just love to hurt that poor horse by the reins, don't you.
>I put the hackamore tiedown on her ...
Because you have no idea what you're doing, and don't
mind making the horse suffer to compensate for that.
You'd be doing her a huge favor to sell her.
This is to entertain and not for those who want to be abused/harassed.
This is to encourage at most only lawful/legal and pragmatic actions.
This is to respond to/on a precedent topic not advertise commerce.
This is to expect only appropriate resource use in response.
This is to add that if you don't like that, well tough shit.
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> that might not be a factor, especially with the muscle-bound stuff.
Yes and no she isn't.
> 2.) What's her feed like?
Nothing but grass in the summer and hay in the winter and her salt/mineral
blocks. She gets a tiny handful of oats for coming like a good girl. Or a
veggie or two.
> Have you tried round pen work with her?
You'll see I have as you read on more.
> You may have her *trust*, but do you have her *respect*?
On the ground I do for sure. I believe I now do as well when on her back. But
she is so scared of the legs. I feel she remembers the spurs and the hard
running.
> Equine massage been checked out?
Yes I have. There are so many things I've done with her, I've forgotten them.
Yes, DeeDee won't stand for her. She gets all heated up. The girl was afraid
to do anything. So I do my own. DeeDee is ok with that.
> Are you still using the simple jointed snaffle? Have you tried other
> snaffles? I've found that some QHs have fat tongues and low palates,
> and my old Sparkle mare (who *did* have a tendency to rear and was
> trained in a mechanical hack, although her only physical similarity to
> DeeDee was a thick--but long--neck) absolutely, totally, completely
> despised a jointed snaffle but went very quietly in a mullen mouth
> curb.
The guy told me he used a snaffle on her. I have tired a few other snaffles
and a couple of curbs. As soon as the curb is in she starts this head tossing
from side to side. Ouch, hit me in the head once.
She seems better with the snaffle.
> Did you try long-lining her? That also might be a good idea. Let her
> have her tizzy fits and fights sans tiedown and let her learn that it
> isn't gonna get rid of the saddle and bridle, plus lets her know that
> she isn't gonna get hurt unless she fights.
Did it. She doen't fight the saddle or tie down on her own. Ownly when
someone gets on her does it become a problem.
> Now here's what I would have done different. First, I would have
> ground driven her.
Well I didn't know there was going to be any problems. After all she was 9.
And this is not something a normally do in the begining, just me choice.
But afterwards I have. She's great. Now I just need a wagon and some country
roads.
> Second, I would have bailed, worked her on the ground, then worked on
> leaning on her back, just like a green-broke colt who's never felt weight
> on his back. No stirrups, just leaning.
Once again after the problem, I went back to introducing the rider. I can
lean on her no problem.
> Maybe I would have even gone to putting a sack full of sand or something
> like that on her back and letting her walk around without a rider until she
> was calm about the weight and the bit (obviously you rushed her since she
> wasn't happy about the bit).
She has gone thru days of carrying around sand bags and being lead and lunged
with them. No problem.
> Then I would have gone to weight in the stirrup, and worked her until
> she was calm about that. Then weight, lean on the saddle. Weight,
> swing leg over back.
After the "first" time I can now mount up and she stands still. But as my
legs wrap around her after getting my seat she starts to prance and sweat.
Her ears go back to look at me and my husband says her eyes roll around and
she twists her nose up so far you can see her teeth.
> What I suspect is that both the breeder and her previous owners rushed
> her into under saddle work,
Well she had 6 years of spurring and galloping. Hell she never got saddle
work by that jerk.
> realizing that she was scared (that's what she sounds like to me) and
> fighting.
After the first ride and the vets I know it! :-)
> greenie under saddle, as in lots of work on the ground with bridle and
> saddle, long-lining/ground driving, bitting up and that sort of thing.
> Sounds like she still needs that.
Ya but all the ground work is great. We do the same things and she's
wonderful.
Hell it's been 3 years now.
> You let her suck you into a fight. Big mistake with these horses.
Found that out.
> I've owned one like that, and even so I almost let another with a
> similar mind (ol' Bucky Spot) suck me into another fight.
Glad I'm not alone.
> Find a minor point where you can concede it was a good day, and leave off
> at that.
I usually try to.
> That's the unfortunate effect of the previous rider. Ground driving
> might help.
Didn't she's great at it. No legs right.
> Another trick would be to load up a couple of sacks with
> plastic pop bottles and strap them to the saddle horn, then turn her
> loose in a corral or round pen to jump and buck and fight for a while
> until she accepts them.
The pop bottles I've done. She doens't fight them.
It's like she thinks that once I'm up there the spurs are coming, but they're
not.
> Also work on using your hands as leg cues on the ground, lots of
> desensitization work involved.
Same thing as above. She knows the difference.
But yes, I need more ideas on how to desensitize her.
> What about the bridle? Do you have a space where you can put saddle
> and bridle on her, let her walk around for a while chewing on the bit
> and mouthing it until she's comfortable
Sorry my fault. yes she wears both the saddle and the bridle in the round pen
for hours.
I've even tied her head back to the saddle from side to side to make sure she
gives her head well.
> --for that matter, where are you putting the bit when you put it on her?
> Are you cranking it up for wrinkles or are you checking to see where it's
> comfortable for
> her?
Oh no! Not so high as to cause her wrinkles.
> Frankly, I wouldn't climb back on her until she's completely
> comfortable with walking around with a bit in her mouth on her own,
I'm not sure if she will ever stop the chewing action. Monty Roberts says
it's how a horse shows acceptance. I don't know.
> plus ground driving without major blowups (from what you've said, I
> suspect your first ground driving sessions could be very exciting--be
> prepared and use very long reins, perhaps even a lunge line).
As I said before THAT went real well. But yes I was scared at first.
> I would also set yourself very small, baby step sort of goals in
> working with her. You may have to look for teensy tiny concessions
> for a very long time before you get a lot of results.
Oh yes I agree totally. Anytime she does the smallest thing good, there's a
big reward.
> If you can find the Jefferies Method tapes, I'd also recommend those
> as an overview for some possible additional techniques. Sheila's got
> the details on those somewhere. I also recommend Henry Blake's _Horse
> Sense_ book. Wish I'd read it before my encounter with Spot this
> week.
I'll give these ideas a look into.
Thanks
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> Collecting exercises are WAY not going to help..she needs to STRETCH, not
> collect.
I know she needs to stretch her neck. But she does not collect herself properly
either.
> > As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him. He
> > caught it and went flying. That was the end of that for the day.
> > I got someone else to come out and trim her the second farrier had the
> > same fate.
> > At this rate I was running out of farriers.
>
> Why weren't you working on correcting this problem,
This is physical. She gets massaged and stretched , that's about I can think to
do.
> and how come you didn't know that she couldn't lift up her hind legs? Surely
> if you were working her every day you had included hoof care and would have
> lifted her hind
> legs, and surely after the first farrier you worked on the problem?
I didn't lift her legs up very far to pick them out. Some farriers pull them up
higher.
Plus it was only about 2 weeks after getting her that I called for the farrier.
> Why not gradually encourage her to stretch.
I do.
> What if you just hang the bit in her mouth for a while, without riding her?
She's been saddled and bridled and left for hours in the round pen. I did this
exercise day after day.
> What was she ridden in by the breeder and previous owner?
Snaffle.
> Have you tried a french link? Or a mullen mouth?
Yes. It's worse. She shakes her head from side to side.
> > As soon as I get one foot in
> > the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
> > come off a horse real easy.
>
> Saddle bronc isn't a ladies event, so I will assume you mean it
> figuratively.
Don't know where you are from but yes there are quite a few women riding broncs
in local rodeos. But this is another topic.
> If her mouth/bit was bothering her, and you steadied her as
> you mounted (fairly normal behaviour) you may easily have triggered the rear
> to get away from mouth discomfort.
Maybe, it doesn't seem to be the problem it was before. But the other trainers
did it just the same as I did. Not to say they were right though.
> But didn't address the possible CAUSES of her behaviour, but went straight
> for the gadgets.
After I called the vet, chiro, saddle person, tired other bits.
> I dunno what the good seat had to do with it, you had leverage, that is what
> changed. Still not teaching her much, though.
You're doing alot of spouting but not offering hard core ideas, just theories.
Not much help.
> Sounds like if the breeder found her this wacky right away, it's nothing to
> do with the next owner's riding....
It made her worse.
> But she was nearly a canner BEFORE that. Did he talk about her rearing?
Yes. If he tried to walk her and he told me he usually mounted her running. Why?
I haven't got a clue. Guess he wanted to be a movie cowboy. LOL
> Of course.. you aren't teaching her anything. You're just preventing the
> problems from appearing. Not stopping them at the source
See? You are spouting again. Why don't you TELL me how you think I should stop
the problem at the source. For 3 years she gets ground training every other day.
> What are you doing to address that problem?
Round pen work with pop bottles tied to the saddle, or sandbags. Any other
methods of desensitization you want to recommend.
The problem is she knows the difference between something hanging from the
saddle and legs from the rider.
> yikes. be careful doing that. what if she gets a leg through a stirrup?
> or rolls on your saddle?
I always stay near by the watch her. my stirrups are moved up high.
As for falling on my saddle, that's ok. It's had it happen many times over the
years by many horses. I use an Aussie Stock saddle with no horn. It takes a good
lickin'.
> well, if you don't start, you won't get anywhere. what does she do if she
> is being led with you up and you touch her sides?
Takes a fit the same as without a person leading her. She tries to run and
fights the bit. Eventually she tires to rear and if she can't tries to flop on
her side, a few times she has actually gone right down on her front legs. My
poor husband who is a BIG guy. 6'4" and 250lbs can't hold her once she starts.
He's been hit one to many times too.
Most people are too afraid to come near her let alone get on her.
I know her and what she's like on the ground. I believe she's not trying to
really hurt me, she's still just really scared.
> Do you have a horse you can pony her off of?
If you mean have her run along side another horse I'm riding. Yes.
> Can you lunge her with something on her sides?
Yes.
> I don't think the trouble is that she is too sensitive, but that she needs
> to relearn what leg means, starting from scratch.
Fine, but what do you suggest.
> What about rewards for small bits of decent behaviour?
She gets treats and love for even the smallest good thing.
> Sounds to me like she doesn't know whta you want to replace the
> poor behaviour with.
Right but I'm running out of ideas to teach her.
> OR, she could truly be a nutter, I have known a line of horses with a screw
> loose.
Well we know she was always hot from the start.
Funny, I forgot about this. The only time she was almost normal was when she was
pregnant. Then maybe because of the hormones she was very calm and much easier
to ride.
On that note, her filly she the sweetest baby I've ever had. I bred her to a
calm stallion and imprinted her a birth so I don't see any problems so far. I'm
taking extra care on it though.
> I don't think from your description that you have tried everything.
I'm open for suggestions.
> but I see lots of holes in the training from your description.
As I have been writing with people more things that I've done are coming back to
mind.
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
Well I know a lot of people who will disagree with that comment. But that's a different training issue.
> The horse is behind the bit from abuse of the headgear, and is only suffering more such abuse.
The breeder and the first owner only had snaffles on her as do I. There is nothing abusive about that. I
also don't agree that a hackamore is abusive, but us arguing about it's going to change my mind or
yours.
> If only you'd think enough to get yourself riding lessons.
Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong! I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been
riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
> Do you have any idea how to encourage a horse to go round on the line?
Good god, yes. I am 29 years old buddy. I DO know what I am doing here. Please stop talking to me like a
child.
> Do you know you should do so before attempting to work on gaits and transitions at all?
Yes.
> According to your vet?
YES.
> >So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral.
>
> Even though the poor horse can't lift its hind legs, you did this ...
She can lift her legs. She can't have them pulled out and up behind her very high like how a lot of
farriers do.
> Have you ever checked the mouth conformation of the horse?
Yes it is normal.
> You just love to hurt that poor horse on the head, don't you.
Listen dick, sounds like you don't know how to control a horse that is out of control. Maybe you need to
get out of the armchair and on one.
> Hasn't anyone ever shown you how to mount properly, and get a horse trained for that first?
You are really getting trying with your stupid questions.
As far as her re-training, I did.
> No wonder you'd cluelessly claimed that some horses can't be expected to stand for mounting.
You're off topic.
> >As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins.
>
> You just love to hurt that poor horse by the reins, don't you.
You're starting to sound like a troll.
> Because you have no idea what you're doing, and don't mind making the horse suffer to compensate for
> that.
A hackamore is NOT a harsh piece of equipment when used right. God!
And fuck off about me hurting my horse. It's getting really tired.
You have done nothing here but spout. I don't think you've ever even seen a horse.
You never once offered one piece of advise.
Hell you even changed the "subject".
Stop trolling.
You won't get any more responses from me on this.
> You'd be doing her a huge favor to sell her.
So that she can kill someone or be sold for meat. No way.
Dawn Lawson
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote:
> Howdy Dawn
>
> > Collecting exercises are WAY not going to help..she needs to STRETCH, not
> > collect.
>
> I know she needs to stretch her neck. But she does not collect herself properly
> either.
She can't until she can stretch. stretching is before collection. WAY before.
> > Why not gradually encourage her to stretch.
>
> I do.
so she should be getting better. Or else you aren't being effective and should
consult with a qualified person on how to stretch her effectively.
> Yes. It's worse. She shakes her head from side to side.
I would get an equine dentist in to check her out.
> > But didn't address the possible CAUSES of her behaviour, but went straight
> > for the gadgets.
>
> After I called the vet, chiro, saddle person, tired other bits.
Not according to your post. you got hubby out, and got martingale on.
> > I dunno what the good seat had to do with it, you had leverage, that is what
> > changed. Still not teaching her much, though.
>
> You're doing alot of spouting but not offering hard core ideas, just theories.
> Not much help.
hmm..I suggested a few things in my post. you don't want to hear them, or you have
tried them already, which is fair enough. You don't want to hear theories, you're
gonna find yourself forever reinventing the wheel.
> > Sounds like if the breeder found her this wacky right away, it's nothing to
> > do with the next owner's riding....
>
> It made her worse.
Could be, but she didn't sound sane to start with.
> > But she was nearly a canner BEFORE that. Did he talk about her rearing?
>
> Yes. If he tried to walk her and he told me he usually mounted her running. Why?
> I haven't got a clue. Guess he wanted to be a movie cowboy. LOL
No one has taught this mare to calm under saddle, or to stand to be mounted. It
will take a lot of work without gadgets to get her to that point. if as you posted
to another person who made similar suggestions to mine, you have done everything and
she is calm until you apply leg, then THAT is the next thing to work on. Gradually
getting her used to your leg meaning communication.
> > Of course.. you aren't teaching her anything. You're just preventing the
> > problems from appearing. Not stopping them at the source
>
> See? You are spouting again. Why don't you TELL me how you think I should stop
> the problem at the source. For 3 years she gets ground training every other day.
I'm not spouting, I am telling you that the REASON that when you take the tiedowns
and shit off her head she isn't much better is that they aren't teaching her
anything. I dunno how much I can help without seeing you and her working together.
Lots of ground training that isn't working is as bad or worse than none. I think
you need to find a decent coach to help you with her. I'd volunteer, but I don't
think you're in my neck of the woods.
> The problem is she knows the difference between something hanging from the
> saddle and legs from the rider.
Ok, then you have to use your legs. The problem isn't that she is afraid of things
on her legs, it is that in three years she hasn't been re-educated that legs mean
more than go fast now. I guess from here, wihtout seeing her, I would suggest long
rides, with as little leg as she is comfortable with, gradually applying leg and
releasing it, without getting into fights, but always striving for a little wider
comfort zone.
> It's had it happen many times over the
> years by many horses. I use an Aussie Stock saddle with no horn. It takes a good
> lickin'.
It's your tack. How many horses have you had that reared up and or fell over?
> > well, if you don't start, you won't get anywhere. what does she do if she
> > is being led with you up and you touch her sides?
>
> Takes a fit the same as without a person leading her. She tries to run and
> fights the bit.
Lead her with the halter? If she is fully ground schooled, why is she running over
hte handler? What about sitting on her and then repeating the desensitising stuff
you did on the ground, rubbing her sides, bags and not legs, etc, working up to
legs? Maybe the jump to legs from the other things is too much.
> Most people are too afraid to come near her let alone get on her.
Why is that if she is so well ground schooled?
>
> I know her and what she's like on the ground. I believe she's not trying to
> really hurt me, she's still just really scared.
You should be able to make more progress than this in three years if it is only
fear.
> > Do you have a horse you can pony her off of?
>
> If you mean have her run along side another horse I'm riding. Yes.
Then what about ponying wiht a rider up. Don't run this horse anywhere. Get a nice
solid pony horse that can take another horse getting freaky beside it. don't have a
bridle or tie down or shit like that on her. One thing at a time, and the thing
sounds like it should be acceptance of leg.
> > I don't think the trouble is that she is too sensitive, but that she needs
> > to relearn what leg means, starting from scratch.
>
> Fine, but what do you suggest.
Clicker training. Ponying with rider up, and no bridle. Confirmation of effective
ground work. Respect from her. Getting good help to get past this hurdle.
Evaluating whether any other horses of her line are as whacky.
> > Sounds to me like she doesn't know whta you want to replace the
> > poor behaviour with.
>
> Right but I'm running out of ideas to teach her.
I'm pretty sure that seeing you two working would give me more ideas. I think you
have explained what you did as best you could, but I suspect that if we bar the idea
that she's nuts, you aren't making yourself clear to her, or aren't reading her
quite right. Got a video camera?
> Well we know she was always hot from the start.
No no. not hot. Nuts. Different altogether.
> Funny, I forgot about this. The only time she was almost normal was when she was
> pregnant. Then maybe because of the hormones she was very calm and much easier
> to ride.
Maybe she has an ovarian cyst which causes her pain when you are in the saddle, and
would perhaps explain quite a lot, or you could try Regumate with your vet's ok.
> > I don't think from your description that you have tried everything.
>
> I'm open for suggestions.
Well, now I have that in writing *grin*, and I have given you some.
> > but I see lots of holes in the training from your description.
>
> As I have been writing with people more things that I've done are coming back to
> mind.
Well, keep calm and keep writing them as you think of them. Three years is a long
time to fiddle about on this, and maybe someone can offer you a breakthrough idea.
Dawn
SHuc540722
>Don't know where you are from but yes there are quite a few women riding
>broncs
>in local rodeos
They even have women's classes in rodeos now. I did have a horse once that
was scared of everything that people did to her. It may not help with yours
but one of the things I did with her was to just sit. You know, not ask her to
do anything, we even let her eat while we were sitting on her which I normally
wouldn't do. We didn't try to get her to do anything. Nothing, just sat.
I've done it with most of the colts that I have started (not the eating, just
the sitting). Start out with 15 minutes and get longer. It doesn't give them
anything to fight. I used this when I started reworking my husband's horse who
really wanted to blow up when we first started riding him again after a long
layoff. He flipped on David the first time he rode him after that particular
layoff and acted like he wanted to try it again after an equipment change.
Yes, it was a long layoff & poorly fitting equipment but they learn effective
human training techniques quickly. The bosal & tiedown almost have to come off
because the horse is ducking her head to her chest. And this tack
configuration encourages that type of avoidance. One of the other posters
made the point that if your horse is moving forward then he can't rear. The
trick is moving forward (LOL). When the horse has learned the rearing trick &
with that heavy rear end, she will be prone to rear because it is easy for her.
Don't pull her over on yourself if you can help it. It used to be common
practice to suggest that because it was assumed that the horse wouldn't like
the sensation but some don't mind it especially if it yields the desired result
(You are on the ground & off her back). I don't know if this is going to come
across correctly in typing but with a rearer you will want to get as much of
your weight forward as you can & keep the reins wide & loose to allow her a
forward option. Many people instinctively tighten the reins and overbalance
the horse. I know that I am not explaining this well. Anyway, with the
sitting thing the horse eventually gets used to it (desensitized) and will feel
comfortable with going forward. Then again, you may just have a fruitcake.
There are some out there. I have at least one relative that is that way and it
isn't because of the way she was trained.
Dawn Lawson
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote:
> > >Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
> > Luck doesn't exist, and collection isn't achieved with the reins.
>
> Well I know a lot of people who will disagree with that comment. But that's a different training issue.
Well, if she is so ressistant to the bit, then no matter what the training method, trying to collect her off
the reins is futile, and not working.
> > If only you'd think enough to get yourself riding lessons.
>
> Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong! I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been
> riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
hmm...why not try it? Maybe a new perspective could help with this mare. You've had her for three years
and got some success, but not a cure. Why not? It's only your ego that you stand to lose! ;-) Coming
from a long line of ANYthing doesn't make it done right, nor does doing it for a long time. (story: Woman
always cuts 3 inches of the leg of lamb before she bakes it. Hubby asks why the struggle of that? Wife
doesn't know, asks mom, who showed her how to do it. Mom doesn't know, asks Granny, who showed HER. Granny
says "well, my pan was 3 inches too short")
> Good god, yes. I am 29 years old buddy. I DO know what I am doing here. Please stop talking to me like a
> child.
Not to say it's you, but I know plenty of 29 year olds who dont know shit about riding or training.
Muleskinner asked a question, albiet in her usual blunt way. What she's asking, at the core, is whether
your ground work ability is effective.
> > Have you ever checked the mouth conformation of the horse?
>
> Yes it is normal.
Normal is a wide range. Hence the number and shapes and sizes of bits. That's Muley's point.
> A hackamore is NOT a harsh piece of equipment when used right. God!
The unanswered part of this isn't if you are using a hackamore, it's if you are using it "right" which you
will believe you are, but perhaps for this particular mare, you aren't? Might be worth mulling over, rather
than dismissing out of hand. Just ignore the tone of Muleskinner's posts, and try to find the meat of
them. Promise we won't tell if she's right ;-)
Dawn
Betty Woolf
One of my horses, although he doesn't rear, came to me with the same
"legs mean gallop" mentality, and we also had some bitting trouble, so
I'm going to focus on that. In his case the chiropractor really helped
him out -- part of his problem was physical.
> So where things are at now are as follows:
> I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
> any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from
> time to time. When it's off she's worse.
I agree with others' comments about tiedowns -- they're not gonna solve
the problem, although it may keep you from getting hurt in the short
term.
> The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
> ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
> minutes.
Does she walk at all, ever, even if your legs are completely off her? My
Rudy didn't want to ever walk, and paid no attention to me when I used
the bit to ask him to slow down. I knew in my mind that it's the seat
and legs, not the bit, that stops the horse, but at first it didn't
really stop me from riding with my hands too much for the situation. My
seat didn't work to slow him, so I resorted to the bit -- mistake!. When
I bought him he was ridden in a mechanical hackamore because his owners
couldn't get a bit in his mouth. (Of course not, the bit didn't fit
him.) I tried a couple of different bits and finally settled on the
french link snaffle, which made him more comfortable but still, the
brakes didn't work too well.
I did a few things. . . First, I made sure he really knew the voice
commands for what I wanted him to do. I had longed and round-penned him
plenty, but it was my body language more than my voice he was responding
to. I fixed that, and it really helped him "collect his wits" because at
the time when I was riding him he was like your mare, seemingly good on
the basics on the ground, and just tense as anything when ridden. I
taught him the voice commands for walk, trot, canter, slow down, whoa,
and stand and it really helped him learn to associate cues from the
saddle with things he already knew how to do.
Another thing I did, once he was in good enough shape for it, was to ride
him in the round pen without touching the reins no matter what he did.
Sometimes I had to hang onto the saddle to stay with him, but I made sure
I wasn't bothering his mouth. I knew he didn't buck or rear though, he
just went fast. I'm not sure I'd do it on a horse I know rears and falls
over.
Voila! Within a few days, he was reaching his head down to the ground
and stretching his back out, with me on him, for the first time ever, at
both the walk and the trot, and his canter was improving too.
I'm at the point where now I'm getting him off his forehand (we did a
little too much of the "drag your nose of the ground" but he needed it
IMO.)
Now, about the leg. With Rudy, I thought he was afraid of the leg but
now I think he was just so tense he was in "flight mode" and couldn't
really take my direction at all -- legs, hands, weight, anything. Once
he calmed down, he was still a little afraid of the leg but it was much
easier to work through problems when he was calm enough to learn.
> If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
Another sign, IMO, that she's just not paying attention to you, but is in
some sort of panic. I'd work her with no other horses around if at all
possible.
>
> What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
Make her realize that being ridden is ok -- find the proper bit for her,
for one thing. Have someone lead her at different gaits without you
using your leg at all -- or just sit on her and don't ask her to do
anything.
My only other suggestion is TTEAM massage taught by Linda Tellington-
Jones. . .I am *strongly* opposed to the stuff she teaches in her books
about physical characteristics predicting personality traits, and I hate
her writing style and think she's a crackpot in many ways, but her
massage stuff is good. My horses love it.
My horse was at 3 trainers before I bought him, too, and they all said he
was untrainable. Wrong! But he was a horse who needed a different
approach than the conventional, and that included positively not
resorting to any gadgets to force him to behave, but to get him to relax
enough that he was able to behave.
<snip>
> I have my own “good” horse to ride and 2 others I’m training. But I
> don't like to just give up on something.
Been there!!! It did pay off for me, but it was a lot of work. I think
a year ago I was begging for help here on rec.eq on how to get him to
stand for mounting, and to slow down. I had to keep an open mind though,
and really examine my work with him, and not get defensive about the
comments I was getting. Yes you've done better with her than others, but
she is still unhappy so some small part of the criticisms may be true.
I've been told for 20 years my hands are light and quiet -- and yet they
were still wrong for working with Rudy at that stage in his training, and
I was contributing to, if not causing, the problem even though it took me
a long time to admit it.
Good luck!
Betty Woolf
>
> Jennifer
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Candy Marianos
(and I had one similar although not quite that bad) I think I would try
what I did with mine: The ground work, driving, but most of all
"starting from scratch" worked wonders. I started her out as a very
well ground broke 2yr old. (She was 14). Lean on her while feeding, or
just standing tied up. And very slowly and gradually progress from
there. It takes a lot of time but the end result is more than worth it.
Pretend she's an untouched yearling or two year old. Should work, might
not, but definitely worth a try since all else has failed. Never give
up!
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> > Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong! I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been riding
> since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
>
> hmm...why not try it? Maybe a new perspective could help with this mare. You've had her for three years and
> got some success, but not a cure. Why not? It's only your ego that you stand to lose! ;-)
Actually I've been to quite a few seminars over the years and clinincs too. So I know it's not my riding. But
yes, if I didn't have that experience under the saddle I definately would have.
> Muleskinner asked a question, albiet in her usual blunt way. What she's asking, at the core, is whether your
> ground work ability is effective.
Yes it is. The mare's great at anything asked of her on the ground.
> Normal is a wide range. Hence the number and shapes and sizes of bits. That's Muley's point.
Yes that's true. I guess normal was off. I was thinking in terms of something different about it. Let's see.
Well it's a good, square QH mouth. She's got a big head, but the mouth is relative to it.
> The unanswered part of this isn't if you are using a hackamore, it's if you are using it "right" which you
> will believe you are, but perhaps for this particular mare, you aren't?
It's not her head that's the problem, it's her sides.
I've used a hack for years on all kinds of different horses.
The biggest problem I have with Muleskinner, aka, Muleteer, a driver of mules;
that's right Sheila I DO know what it means; is that she doesn't offer hard core ideas. She just spouts
theories. A lot of the time that's not good enough.
Jennifer
Kris Carroll
load washers? Or cats stupid enough to sack out on the window ledge of a
room filled with smoke? Sheesh.
A few thoughts
Your mare's head isn't going to come down where it belongs, nor will she
stretch until you engage her hindquarters, which isn't going to happen
until you can ride her off your seat and legs. Collection comes along
after that.
Have you considered trying a trainer outside your discipline? A little
dressage never hurt any horse and I'm thinking of a very young, dumb
Percheron mare sent to a good barn. This 5yo mare was not deliberate, just
completely green and built like a tank. There were some similar problems
simply due to size and muscle mass. The trainer worked from the ground but
took advantage of her 20yo kid (who bounce better than us old folk) and
there was decent progress. Or if this isn't an affordable option, perhaps
you could train with one yourself, and bring those lessons home.
She's learned she can bully with you on her back. Unless you are strong
enough to prevail, it would be a mistake to even begin any discussion.
Everytime she rears, you lose everything. Without seeing the two of you in
action, anyone who offers concrete suggestions better be willing to kick
in on the medical bills.
The oats and pail trick can be a mistake. A better solution to evasion in
pasture is to free lunge, keep them moving until you say stop and you can
walk up and halter. If not, then it's back to CANter until she figures
this out. Persistence and patience. And this should work for everyone who
handles a horse like this. This was one of Cowbell's games and it
escalated a few times to stall, gate and trainer bashing. There was an old
Jane post (somewhat controversial <EG>) about a stallion and a bucket.
Perhaps she'll wade in here. I think you have two distinct problems -
trust and respect. I'd deal with the respect issue first.
Based on what you wrote - do you leave halters on your horses in pasture?
I think breeding her was a big (and egotistical) mistake, given her
temperament and conformation.
Haven't seen your reply about floating??
If she drives well, then maybe that's what you have to settle for. As you
say you've made some progress. If you have all the time in the world you
might break through. By luck or accident. Try not to get yourself killed
meantime.
Kris C.
AlaTmPnr
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It
has been about a month and a half.
She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out.
Hmmm loosen the bit and let her carry it.
>Even to this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Well the bit is to tight for her and it sure isnt loosening up and she hasnt
accepted it ... so what do you want her to do ... it is uncomfortable.
>Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in the
stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't come off a
horse real easy. So with one foot in and the horse up in the
air I swing the other leg over.
Whoa ..... wrong thing to do. You should have stepped off and regrouped
forcing the issue is not the answer. Cowboying is not an answer.
> Her head is as far up as she can get it
and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side. But with
just a snaffle on her head and her thick neck is too strong.
Another mistake ..... let loose of the horse's mouth give her all the slack she
needs and move your weight up on her neck.
>I can't get her down. Finally it happens, she throws herself over backward. I
got out of the way at the last second, else I’d be in the hospital.
Hmmm see what happens when you dont give slack and get out of their mouth?
Also you overbalanced the horse by not getting up on her neck and releasing
pressure. If you had done that she would have come down on her own. But you
didnt and this is what happens.
>As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to come out
and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
Hmmm why is it you only use force?
>While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to let
go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because I had a
good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in and prevent
her from rearing.
Geez Jennifer think about what you just wrote. When are you going to engage
the brain cells and look at what you are doing... you have given this mare no
chance.
>Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways. Ouch, my leg hurt.
Hell yeah! If I had been her I would have tried to kill you. You have a bit
that is uncomfortable in her mouth ... you have yanked her mouth when she
protested and then you pulled her over. She didnt throw herself on the ground
you probably overbalanced her and she lost her footing. But your way makes it
sound like you are the hero.
>So, First I call the vet to make sure I haven't missed a problem in her legs
and back. Nope she's fine. I call the horse chiropracter, she too says things
are great.
I take her to his guy I know who makes saddles to check on the fit. Everything
there if fine.
You checked everything but what was wrong.
So, I call the guy a bought her from and he doesn't give me much info about
what he's done to her. So I ask for the breeders number. They tell me
she was always a “hot” horse and after green-breaking her, they had considered
shooting her. But instead sold her to the guy I bought her from.
Hmm this should have told you that she was started badly. You need to back up
to the beginning and start over .... if this horse was cheese she would be
swiss... there are that many holes in her undersaddle training.
>I went around the area and asked people if they ever saw this guy out riding
DeeDee. A lot had. Later I got the guy to admit how he rode her. For the 6
years he had rode her hard with spurs and did nothing but gallop her and then
get off. The poor horse.
Hint: What he did has nothing at all to do with what you have done. You were
not any better with all the gimmickry you loaded on that horse. Poor Horse
Indeed.
>Things made sense after that.
So where things are at now are as follows:
I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about any
ideas she gets to rear up and over on me.
You really dont understand do you? This equipment isnt going to keep her from
going over backwards it just deters it for a bit. If the pressure is great
enough she will kill herself to escape the pressure.
> I take it on and off from
time to time. When it's off she's worse.
The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I ask her
to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15 minutes.
You really dont know enough to fix this horse. You need help .... experienced
help. I trained a horse this last spring just like her. You have to go back
to the beginning and bring her forward and it has to be slow ... and you just
dont know anything but force and that is not going to work with this mare.
>If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
So what?? Circling her is what needs to be done and get her to understand that
she doesnt have to lead. Some horses are just this way deal with it dont make a
fight of it.
>What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
Start from the ground and desensitize and get her to understand giving to the
pressure. Stop kicking her to make her go forward .... use vocal or clucks to
cue her to move and then a rein end to enforce.
>I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field, I can have
someone lead me around for hours (so long as I don'’ touch her barrel).
Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with
a heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. <
Geez a Monty Roberts solution ... what will they come up with next LOL.
DESENSITIZE the barrel from the ground.
>snippage<
Bill
Muleskinner
[attributions corrected]
>[Muleskinner wrote:]
>> [Warty blathered:]
>> >Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
>> Luck doesn't exist, and collection isn't achieved with the reins.
>Well I know a lot of people who will disagree with that comment.
You probably even imagine that'd mean something
besides you being too dimwitted to know that it
is nothing more than an unrelated fallacy.
>But that's a different training issue.
False: you are only torturing this horse by not
realizing that she's behind the bit, and merely
hauling on her poor mouth and head instead.
>> The horse is behind the bit from abuse of the headgear,
>> and is only suffering more such abuse.
>The breeder and the first owner only had snaffles on her as do I.
That's not what you claimed, before.
Are you lying now, then, or both?
> There is nothing abusive about that. I
>also don't agree that a hackamore is abusive,
Your mechanical hack, particularly as
used over a snaffle, is the hallmark
of a totally incompetent trainer.
> but us arguing about it's going to change my mind or
>yours.
I don't need to change my mind, I'm
not the one ruining any poor horse
at all. All mine are just fine,
even without bridles.
>> If only you'd think enough to get yourself riding lessons.
>Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong!
You'll never lose your addiction to
pulling on a poor horse's head until
you actually learn how to ride one.
>I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys.
You illustrate that not one of them
had a clue to pass along to you.
>I've been
>riding since I was 4 years old.
So?
You've never done it right yet, if
you're dependent on the reins.
> My riding is not the issue or the problem.
False: it's the total problem, and
you're too insecure to admit it.
It's always the rider, and if you'd
ever known an actual master of horses
you'd know that much, at least.
>> Do you have any idea how to encourage a horse to go round on the line?
>Good god, yes.
Your substantiation for that would be _?_
>I am 29 years old buddy.
You're mentally less than prepubescent, and
I'm not your buddy until you start being
decent and fair to your poor horse.
> I DO know what I am doing here.
Nothing you say indicates anything of the
sort, however.
> Please stop talking to me like a
>child...
You're interpreting it as you insist.
No one else is responsible for you.
You'll know that if you grow up.
>> You just love to hurt that poor horse on the head, don't you.
>... dick ...
Your personal problems are not generally germane.
>... don't know how to control a horse that is out of control...
Your personal problems are not generally germane.
My horses can be ridden bridleless, all of them.
Ever wonder why you can't even get one that way?
>... stupid ...
Your personal problems are not generally germane.
>> No wonder you'd cluelessly claimed that some horses
>> can't be expected to stand for mounting.
>You're off topic.
Inaccurate/inapplicable; fallacious regardless.
You're just lying.
No wonder you can't admit how clueless you are
insisting that horses can't stand for mounting.
>> >As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins.
>>
>> You just love to hurt that poor horse by the reins, don't you.
>You're ...
Irrelevant.
Unlike you, I don't abuse horses, I benefit them.
>> Because you have no idea what you're doing, and don't
>> mind making the horse suffer to compensate for that.
>A hackamore is NOT a harsh piece of equipment when used right. God!
It's not used right in dependent hands, over a snaffle.
Period.
>... fuck off ... me hurting my horse. It's getting really tired...
You should sell it to spare it the abuse.
>... have done nothing here but spout. I don't think ...
It was already obvious that you don't think
enough of your poor horse to quit tormenting
her with the reins.
>> You'd be doing her a huge favor to sell her.
>So that she can kill someone or be sold for meat. No way.
She'd be better off than with you abusing her.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
Kris Carroll
> No "collecting" exercises will fix this. None at all. Collection is a
> TOTALLY different thing and totally unrelated.
I'm thinking stock folk use collection (impulsion) differently than
dressage folk. I think they mean engagement (propulsion).
> You sacked her out? Interesting move.
Em, what do you think this means?
> extreme behaviour under saddle shouldn't be occurring, unless she is in
> pain.
I disagree. Some horses do learn to fight back. Been abused so long, it
looks like up to me.... Though, there's no way to tell if the right bit
has been found yet.
Kris C.
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> Have you considered trying a trainer outside your discipline?
Sure, can't hurt anyone but the trainer. :-)
> A little dressage never hurt any horse and I'm thinking of a very young,
> dumb
> Percheron mare sent to a good barn. This 5yo mare was not deliberate, just
> completely green and built like a tank.
But she is not dumb, she's been abused and is scared.
> She's learned she can bully with you on her back.
Not anymore.
> Unless you are strong enough to prevail, it would be a mistake to even begin
> any discussion.
I am very strong. That's why I have kept her and continue to make progress.
Slow, but I still make it.
> Everytime she rears, you lose everything.
She doen't rear anymore. The tiedown stops that. And when the tiedown hasn't
been on she still doesn't. But the longer I ride her the more worked up she
gets that she can't run away with me. The tie down hack is there as a safety
issue when we're out in the bush.
> The oats and pail trick can be a mistake. A better solution to evasion in
> pasture is to free lunge, keep them moving until you say stop and you can
> walk up and halter.
Hard to do when you have 300 acres of desert mountians and woodlands. :-)
Besides I have always believe you don't chase the horse you make them come to
you. That's just my opinion maybe.
> Persistence and patience.
I do have lots of it with her. That's why we've come so far.
> I think you have two distinct problems - trust and respect.
Well I believe I have both now. She just doen't get what I want, and I'm
running out of ideas to make her realize that my legs don't have spurs on
them.
> Based on what you wrote - do you leave halters on your horses in pasture?
Good god no! They could get caught on all kinds of things out there!
Now THAT would be abuse if I did it.
> I think breeding her was a big mistake, given her temperament and
> conformation.
Oh well. My choice right or wrong. So far it has been very right.
> Haven't seen your reply about floating??
I don't remember reading anything about it. Refresh my memory.
> If she drives well, then maybe that's what you have to settle for.
Then we won't be going anywhere. I can't drive her on the road. I live beside
a busy mountain highway with no shoulders. The land is too rough for a wagon,
and I don't own one.
> As you say you've made some progress. If you have all the time in the world
> you
> might break through. By luck or accident. Try not to get yourself killed
> meantime.
Thanks!
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> was physical.
It was the second thing I had checked out. Aok.
> I agree with others' comments about tiedowns -- they're not gonna solve
> the problem, although it may keep you from getting hurt in the short
> term.
That's why it's there.
> > The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
> > ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
> > minutes.
>
> Does she walk at all, ever, even if your legs are completely off her?
No. If I am on her back the best I can get from her is a 3-gait prance.
I have come to rather enjoy it and find it comfortable. And boy can we cover
ground with it. :-)
The only time she waks is when is has no one on her back. She does walk with
the bridle and saddle on, so long as there isn't a person in it.
> I did a few things. . . First, I made sure he really knew the voice
> commands for what I wanted him to do.
DeeDee is trained in voice commands too. She will solw from a trot or canter
into a walk when being lunged or lead.
It has no effect when being riden though. Ugh.
> Another thing I did, once he was in good enough shape for it, was to ride
> him in the round pen without touching the reins no matter what he did.
> Sometimes I had to hang onto the saddle to stay with him, but I made sure
> I wasn't bothering his mouth. I knew he didn't buck or rear though, he
> just went fast. I'm not sure I'd do it on a horse I know rears and falls
> over.
But see it's not the bit I'm sure of this. I am sure she chews it out of
frustration in not being able to run or from being scared.
Actually, the only time she doesn't chew the bit IS when we gallop!
> Now, about the leg. With Rudy, I thought he was afraid of the leg but
> now I think he was just so tense he was in "flight mode" and couldn't
> really take my direction at all -- legs, hands, weight, anything. Once
> he calmed down, he was still a little afraid of the leg but it was much
> easier to work through problems when he was calm enough to learn.
Because she is so "hot" I don't know if she'll even calm down.
> Another sign, IMO, that she's just not paying attention to you, but is in
> some sort of panic. I'd work her with no other horses around if at all
> possible.
I do now.
> Make her realize that being ridden is ok -- find the proper bit for her,
> for one thing.
I'm sure I have it.
> Have someone lead her at different gaits without you using your leg at all
> -- or just sit on her and don't ask her to do
> anything.
But if my legs even touch her she starts. I don't want to sit on her
crosslegged! :-)
Thanks for the help.
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> To solve this problem, get a good dressage instructor.
Ya I can see that now. Having always ridden western with somewhat shall we say "normal" horses, this has always been easy to ask of them.
> You will find that you may have to physically pick her head up from her chest with your hands (taking them
> towards her ears). Frustrating process but only one that works. You will need to correct her constantly every time she comes behind the vertical and/or breaks at the 3rd/5th vertebrae. Been there, done that.
Good for you. I think I'll need a crane to pull her head out. Even when she's out in the field she carries it that way.
The only time it comes down is to drink. Don't know if it will ever change. But that's not the end of the world. I can live with that.
> > I made sure to sack her out.
> You sacked her out? Interesting move.
Well you never know if the horse has had it done. I always do it as a safety move.
> > mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
> > The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even Get her teeth done and change her bit to some sort of snaffle (nothing STRONGER) with the help of someone who knows what they are doing. It is more than likely that this bit doesn't suit the shape of her mouth.
But I have tried 4 other snaffles and even had 2 other horsemen look it over with me.
> My bet is that this horse is suffering pain. Get another chiro, get
> another vet.
When her foal had to go to the hospital (unrelated matter) I had her back x-rayed (expensive) nothing wrong.
Nope, I truly believe she still has the memory of those spurs. After all she was a young horse and was treated like that for several years. She is starting to learn it doesn't have to be that way.
> If she trusts you as much as you say on the ground, this extreme behaviour under saddle shouldn't be occurring, unless she is in pain.
Nope, I truly believe she still has the memory of those spurs. After all she was a young horse and was treated like that for several years. She has to start learning it doesn't have to be that way.
Thanks anyhow
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> has been found yet.
Kris, just one note on that.
I was sure that at first it was the bit so after a number of other bits
didn't seem to change things; I tried just using a hackamore for a few times.
She does the same nose twisting, chewing action even without a bit.
It begins as soon as I get on.
Jennifer
Kris Carroll
> > Have you considered trying a trainer outside your discipline?
> Sure, can't hurt anyone but the trainer. :-)
I have a short list I can recommend. Not to mention Sheila.
> She doen't rear anymore. The tiedown stops that. And when the tiedown hasn't
> been on she still doesn't.
Like the man said, if you rely on gimmicks they can let you down. I'm sure
you'd agree a tiedown is not ideal.
> But the longer I ride her the more worked up she
> gets that she can't run away with me. The tie down hack is there as a safety
> issue when we're out in the bush.
Transitions keep a horse busy. A busy horse doesn't have time to think up
tricks. Ditto leg yield, oops better not try that. Just to be really evil,
have you tried her bareback, so she could really feel your seat?
> Hard to do when you have 300 acres of desert mountians and woodlands. :-)
That's why someone invented tape.
> Besides I have always believe you don't chase the horse you make them come to
> you. That's just my opinion maybe.
Hard to insist upon when you have 300 acres of desert mountians and woodlands.
> Well I believe I have both now. She just doen't get what I want, and I'm
> running out of ideas to make her realize that my legs don't have spurs on
> them.
I dare you to try bare legs, bareback. <EG>
I do have another observation, just my bias showing. Are you sure you have
the seat finesse to help this mare? Bronc riding, et al isn't exactly high
school. I once climbed up on a jacked up gelding. In a few minutes the
gelding was almost purring. (Terrible, uneven gaits though). When the jerk
owner got back on, the first response he got was a buck and sky writing.
He though it was fun. The horse was miserable. I'm not saying you're a
jerk, just that this mare has found your weak spot and you may not know
how to radiate lightness for her. Similar story with 3rd level dressage
horse - 2 clinics held the same weekend. The Brit got along fine with the
sensitive TB, the german who rode heavy warmbloods didn't.
> > Haven't seen your reply about floating??
> I don't remember reading anything about it. Refresh my memory.
Her teeth! When was she last floated, rasped, whatever you call it.
> Then we won't be going anywhere. I can't drive her on the road. I live beside
> a busy mountain highway with no shoulders. The land is too rough for a wagon,
> and I don't own one.
Try a sleigh? Hook up a dune buggy?
Kris C.
Kris Carroll
> didn't seem to change things; I tried just using a hackamore for a few times.
And what are you going to do if she loses it while wearing that? Break her
face? Don't start what you can't finish with this mare.
Kris C.
K.Z.
> "Warrior, Princess, Websurfer" <xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The numero uno thing to do with this horse is to teach it to go
FORWARD. It's an oversimplified recommendation, but it's where
your biggest problems lie. She is behind the bit and behind your
leg... either one of these is bad news, together you won't be
able to accomplish anything. Just because she is galloping all
over hill and dale doesn't mean she's in front of your leg (in
fact, she won't even allow the use of your leg!). Go back to
kindergarten with her until she learns _forward_ off your leg,
and make sure you don't throttle down on the front end when she
gives you the response you're looking for, even if her first few
responses are a little overboard. Remember forward, not up.
It's easier to stop or slow down a horse that is too forward,
than it is to make a horse that's "stuck" regain forward, IMHO.
Loose the extraneous tack and *go*. (And no, before someone
mentions it, "teach her forward" does not translate to "run her
into the ground".) The second she gives you what you want,
you're done. Get off and let her know she's wonderful.
I think you've gotten some great advice from others, I hope you
give some of their ideas a try. I'll close with another vote to
NOT touch her mouth when she rears. You can't pull her back to
the ground, the only thing pulling will accomplish is a horse
that doesn't just rear, it flips over... as you found out,
methinks. Lean forward and drive forward, fix it before she even
realizes that she's thinking about rearing with a circle or a
driving aid or _something_. Better yet, don't give her the
opportunity to think of it. How is she moving off your seat,
anyway? The legs aren't the only driving aid available, does she
respond to your seat to go forward? Much though I would prefer
not to resort to artificial aids, what about the judicious use of
a crop to get your point across for a while?
Good luck!
Kelly & Doc
dok...@frontiernet.net
Jorene Downs
> it's how a horse shows acceptance. I don't know.
The constant chewing of the bit indicates problems, not acceptance. There is
a huge difference between calmly sometimes mouthing the bit and constant
chewing. A few thoughts on this:
1. Have her teeth checked & look for any unusual mouth conformation,
indication of a tender area, etc.
2. Eliminate all extraneous headgear, tie downs, etc.
3. Teach her to pick up and carry a bit correctly - odds are she doesn't
know how
4. Change bits until you find one she is comfortable with
5. Once she is comfortable (not chewing the bit) ground drive / long line
her with this bit in her mouth.
Regarding the muscled neck not stretching - bet she won't stretch out when
she isn't relaxed, so teach her to stretch and bend on the ground. Have
her standing quietly in halter and lead rope. Use a carrot to guide her nose
to the ground, back toward her shoulder, back toward her hip, down between
her legs, etc. Work both sides of the horse. Repeat twice daily.
Once you've found a bit she is comfortable with, get that horse to relax
with you just sitting in the saddle. Is she always high-headed out on
pasture? When she is standing relaxed, does she level out? That is what you
want underneath you. Calm. Relaxed. Mount, praise when she is standing
relaxed, sit quietly for at least 5 minutes after the mare has relaxed,
dismount. Repetition of the standing quietly for long periods will help give
her a new reference regarding "rider gets on, time to resist or run".
Deal with the leg contact issue *after* you consistently have a calm,
receptive horse standing under you. Let go of her mouth and head. Taking the
pressure off her face will give you the opportunity to gradually move her
forward without creating the "wall" that encourages her to rear or otherwise
resist or panic. Your attempts at collection before she was ready for this
have encouraged her high-head and various evasions and resistance. Don't
even think about collection until she is moving relaxed under saddle and has
a clue about responding calmly to the rider cues.
Regarding your comment "My riding is not the issue or the problem."
You need to dump that mind set and ego if you have any desire for other
people to consider you remotely qualified as a fledgling horsewoman.
Rider/handler error is the most common problem with horse training at any
level, much less when trying to rehab a horse. Top trainers go to other
trainers to identify problems with their riding. They consult with each
other when the training solutions aren't easy. If you do things *right*,
you'll still be learning until the day you die.
Yes, something in your riding may well be part of the problem. Part of the
problem was already indicated by your trying to collect a horse not remotely
ready for collection - which meant you were in her face before she was ready
for this kind of training - resulting in a horse evading with a chin on her
chest. Rider error. Your being in her face too early while asking for
forward movement could also encourage rearing or other more physical
response. Rider error. Sticking a rear or other sudden moves indicate good
balance in the saddle, not necessarily a good rider.
If the above (and other poster suggestions) doesn't make a huge difference,
I recommend sending this mare to a *qualified* rehab trainer, even if it
means shipping the horse. Alternatively, consider her an unbreedable pasture
ornament.
--
Jorene
just moseyin' down the trail on a Paint horse
from the CEOates Ranch in California ... ;)
www.CEOates.com
meet other Rec.eq'ers on the Rogue's Gallery:
www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
CJ
Why are you letting this guy get to you? Out of all the post that I have
read, this is the only one like this. You got some great advice from Joyce
and Jorene and Sheila and Kris( the list goes on). This post was not even
worth a response.
Good Luck
Cara
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer <xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37AB4274...@hotmail.com...
> > >Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
> > Luck doesn't exist, and collection isn't achieved with the reins.
>
> Well I know a lot of people who will disagree with that comment. But
that's a different training issue.
>
> > The horse is behind the bit from abuse of the headgear, and is only
suffering more such abuse.
>
> The breeder and the first owner only had snaffles on her as do I. There is
nothing abusive about that. I
> also don't agree that a hackamore is abusive, but us arguing about it's
going to change my mind or
> yours.
>
> > If only you'd think enough to get yourself riding lessons.
>
> Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong! I come from a long line of horse
trainers and cowboys. I've been
> riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
>
> > Do you have any idea how to encourage a horse to go round on the line?
>
> Good god, yes. I am 29 years old buddy. I DO know what I am doing here.
Please stop talking to me like a
> child.
>
> > Do you know you should do so before attempting to work on gaits and
transitions at all?
>
> Yes.
>
> > According to your vet?
>
> YES.
>
> > >So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral.
> >
> > Even though the poor horse can't lift its hind legs, you did this ...
>
> She can lift her legs. She can't have them pulled out and up behind her
very high like how a lot of
> farriers do.
>
> > Have you ever checked the mouth conformation of the horse?
>
> Yes it is normal.
>
> > You just love to hurt that poor horse on the head, don't you.
>
> Listen dick, sounds like you don't know how to control a horse that is out
of control. Maybe you need to
> get out of the armchair and on one.
>
> > Hasn't anyone ever shown you how to mount properly, and get a horse
trained for that first?
>
> You are really getting trying with your stupid questions.
> As far as her re-training, I did.
>
> > No wonder you'd cluelessly claimed that some horses can't be expected to
stand for mounting.
>
> You're off topic.
>
> > >As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins.
> >
> > You just love to hurt that poor horse by the reins, don't you.
>
> You're starting to sound like a troll.
>
> > Because you have no idea what you're doing, and don't mind making the
horse suffer to compensate for
> > that.
>
> A hackamore is NOT a harsh piece of equipment when used right. God!
> And fuck off about me hurting my horse. It's getting really tired.
> You have done nothing here but spout. I don't think you've ever even seen
a horse.
> You never once offered one piece of advise.
> Hell you even changed the "subject".
> Stop trolling.
> You won't get any more responses from me on this.
>
Emma
Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes people who tell the truth as
it is are offering far better advice than someone who wraps it up in
cotton wool.
I can guarantee you've stopped reading by now.
> She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
> Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
No "collecting" exercises will fix this. None at all. Collection is a
TOTALLY different thing and totally unrelated. To solve this problem,
get a good dressage instructor. You will find that you may have to
physically pick her head up from her chest with your hands (taking them
towards her ears). Frustrating process but only one that works. You
will need to correct her constantly every time she comes behind the
vertical and/or breaks at the 3rd/5th vertebrae. Been there, done that.
> I made sure to sack her out.
You sacked her out? Interesting move.
> mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
> The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even Get her teeth done and change her bit to some sort of snaffle (nothing STRONGER) with the help of someone who knows what they are doing. It is more than likely that this bit doesn't suit the shape of her mouth.
My bet is that this horse is suffering pain. Get another chiro, get
another vet. If she trusts you as much as you say on the ground, this
extreme behaviour under saddle shouldn't be occurring, unless she is in
pain.
Emma
Emma
> pregnant. Then maybe because of the hormones she was very calm and
Talk to your vet about giving her an injection of progesterone, if she
was so quiet when she was pregnant, maybe there's a hormone imbalance.
Emma
Emily Conger
>weighs over 1500lbs. She is a big, barrel chested, bumble butt horse.
>She is EXTREMELY muscle bound.
Been tested for HYPP?
>She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
Evading the bit. It either hurts, or she's figured out how to keep someone's
heavy hand off her mouth. When were her teeth done last?
>As soon as I get one foot in
>the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
>come off a horse real easy. So with one foot in and the horse up in the
>air I swing the other leg over.
Bad move, you should have bailed.
>Her head is as far up as she can get it
>and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side.
This is not the proper correction for rearing. The horse needs to be driven
forward, not yanked down. The result can be exactly what happened-- she fell.
>As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to
>come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
Why did you resort to more gear immediately before taking time to assess
reasons why she did this to begin with?
>I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
>I had a good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in
>and prevent her from rearing.
Leverage and a 'good seat' has nothing to do with preventing a rear. Driving
the horse forward does. A horse moving forward cannot rear. A horse being
pulled sideways, or with it's head turned can rear, regardless of whatever
peice of leather you've got attached to it.
>Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
>in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways. Ouch, my leg hurt.
This horse was practically screaming a message of some kind to you and you
weren't listening. Force will get you nowhere, as you've spent the last 3
years discovering. There is an underlying cause to all of this and that's what
you need to find. Ditch the gadgetry, it's not training.
>I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
>any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me.
You do this for your own convienience, but it isn't helping the horse. You go
on to say she's worse with it off, do you understand why that is? This horse
hasn't learned anything-- this is a really good example of why tack cannot be a
substitute for training.
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
>ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
>minutes.
She isn't ready to be ridden. You need to start her all over again like she
was a baby. Desensitize her from the ground. Hanging gear all over her head
is not going to fix the problem she has with your leg.
If this were my horse, this is what I would do--
first call would go to the dentist and a complete dental exam would be done.
Next call would be to a different vet and I think I'd have damn near every inch
of her body x-rayed, and every lameness test known to man done. I'd also have
them check for reproductive system problems-- something such as an overian
cyst, which can be painful. IF the horse checked out physically okay, then it
would be time to start training her as if she'd never been touched. Experiment
with different size(width) snaffles and let her wear them around for a while,
sans rider. Leave it loose and let her figure it out on her own. Touch her
everywhere, apply pressure to her sides, hang ropes off the saddle, let her
figure out on her own that something touching her sides is not a Bad Thing.
I have no idea what the time frame was on the things you mentioned in your
post, but it sounded somewhat rushed(horse rears, falls, immediately a
martingale goes on). These things can take time, especially if the horse has
been taught wrong and ridden wrong for an extended period of time. Ditch the
extra gear and go at a pace she can deal with.
Muleskinner
>Well, the fire dept. has come and gone. Anyone got tips on front vs top
>load washers?
Get a front-loading Maytag and you'll get lovely
clean clothes with less water and power. The
power-extract saves on dryer/line time, too.
>Or cats stupid enough to sack out on the window ledge of a
>room filled with smoke? Sheesh.
He was waiting for the hook and ladder?
>A few thoughts
>Your mare's head isn't going to come down where it belongs, nor will she
>stretch until you engage her hindquarters,
Actually, the stretch rather often precedes
the engagement of the quarters.
>which isn't going to happen
>until you can ride her off your seat and legs. Collection comes along
>after that.
Collection, or elevation, is attainable, if
but for a few strides, from the start, when
the trainer is skilled. It has nothing to
do with the use of the reins per se.
>Have you considered trying a trainer outside your discipline? A little
>dressage never hurt any horse and I'm thinking of a very young, dumb
>Percheron mare sent to a good barn. This 5yo mare was not deliberate, just
>completely green and built like a tank. There were some similar problems
>simply due to size and muscle mass. The trainer worked from the ground but
>took advantage of her 20yo kid (who bounce better than us old folk) and
>there was decent progress. Or if this isn't an affordable option, perhaps
>you could train with one yourself, and bring those lessons home.
>She's learned she can bully with you on her back.
She's afraid of being hurt, and defending
herself against a mere uppity subordinate.
>Unless you are strong
>enough to prevail, it would be a mistake to even begin any discussion.
>Everytime she rears, you lose everything. Without seeing the two of you in
>action, anyone who offers concrete suggestions better be willing to kick
>in on the medical bills.
Except the one to sell the horse, being
honest about its historic and current
abuse situations.
>The oats and pail trick can be a mistake. A better solution to evasion in
>pasture is to free lunge, keep them moving until you say stop and you can
>walk up and halter.
Don't tire them, just accompany them,
moving more like a horse and less like
a predator.
>If not, then it's back to CANter until she figures
>this out.
This horse may not be sound.
>Persistence and patience. And this should work for everyone who
>handles a horse like this. This was one of Cowbell's games and it
>escalated a few times to stall, gate and trainer bashing. There was an old
>Jane post (somewhat controversial <EG>) about a stallion and a bucket.
I thought it was a whip.
>Perhaps she'll wade in here. I think you have two distinct problems -
>trust and respect. I'd deal with the respect issue first.
Then there's always the ego problem
causing a refusal to learn new ways
of seeing the horse.
>Based on what you wrote - do you leave halters on your horses in pasture?
>I think breeding her was a big (and egotistical) mistake, given her
>temperament and conformation.
>Haven't seen your reply about floating??
>If she drives well, then maybe that's what you have to settle for. As you
>say you've made some progress. If you have all the time in the world you
>might break through. By luck or accident. Try not to get yourself killed
>meantime.
>Kris C.
Or just sell the horse and spend the money
on a series of carefully-selected lessons.
Muleskinner
>I was sure that at first it was the bit so after a number of other bits
>didn't seem to change things; I tried just using a hackamore for a few times.
If you learn how to ride, you won't need to care
what's on the horse's head.
>She does the same nose twisting, chewing action even without a bit.
>It begins as soon as I get on.
Her back is probably hurting. The saddle may not
fit any better than the headgear, either.
Emma
> Good for you. I think I'll need a crane to pull her head out. Even >when she's out in the field she carries it that way.
Good for me - how about good for most good dressage trainers in the
world who re-educate like this. It's not normal, it's not good for the
horse (builds up lots of wrong muscles causing lots of stress on
different parts of the anatomy), and it needs to be re-trained.
> The only time it comes down is to drink. Don't know if it will ever change. But that's not the end of the world. I can live with that.
If she moves like that in the field - there is something wrong. Horses
do not move naturally with their noses implanted on their chest. I'm
sorry, but it just doesn't happen.
> Well you never know if the horse has had it done. I always do it as a safety move.
Not really the way I'd gain a horse's trust!! that's all.
Emma
Emma
work experience. Not by my coach. When we visited another property the
resident trainer (not a very nice man; was expelled from the EFA of
another state for third incidents of horse cruelty whilst eventing and
came to our state; I have seen this man ride horses so hard they have
haemotomas the size of a watermelon on the underside of the belly) was
sacking out a horse. The horse was terrified - he apparently wasn't
even fighting - just a bit tough under saddle, spooky and such.
Unless it's another case of Australia-American terms...
> I disagree. Some horses do learn to fight back. Been abused so long, it
> looks like up to me.... Though, there's no way to tell if the right bit
> has been found yet.
I agree that horses fight back through memory of pain, we're working
with Emily at the moment through this. But it is very rare that a horse
will persist this long and this hard at fighting.
I agree with the bit, and do get the dentist to look at her teeth.
Emma.
C.M.Newell
<xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>that's right Sheila I DO know what it means; is that she doesn't offer hard core ideas. She just spouts
>theories. A lot of the time that's not good enough.
I bet you $500 that f you send the horse to sheila, she can
work her through this. Then she'll just need to teach you how to do
it.
Dawn Lawson
Emma wrote:
> > Em, what do you think this means?
> Physically tying a horse up and forcing them onto the ground.
Oh f**k....
Nope, that's laying down.
quick, someone post the URL for the sacking out page.....yikes.
Sacking out is just desensitising the horse to all sorts of things so called
sacking out because a gunny sack was the original thing used, to flap around
the horse and get it used to things that can happen.
Alwzhorsn
>But as we discovered I have done all the “ground work” and “re-training” from
the beginning.No this was an abused horse and I need an innovative
idea. >
All the ground work? Could you be more specific in what that means to you.
There aren't going to be innovative ideas from me. I don't think there are any.
You need to seriously evaluate the situation, step back and ask for help
>DeeDee. She is a 12 year old QH. She is 16.2 and
weighs over 1500lbs. She is a big, barrel chested, bumble butt horse. She is
EXTREMELY muscle bound.>
do you have photos you could post? it could be that this mare has severe
conformation faults causing some of her problems.
>She also has a short neck and carries her head like an Arab. She touches her
chin to her chest when being ridden.>
She's probably never been ridden on a loose rein. How does she move when noone
is riding her? can you videotape her so you can realize analyze the way she
moves?
> She doesn't stretch out her neck straight. Have tired many collecting
exercises to fix this. No luck.>
As other people have pointed out, 'collecting' exercises are not what this
horse needs. Long & Low is the term used by dressage people to get a horse to
move in a long frame with the back rounded - this is much closer to where you
should be aiming for. "Collection" is for a horse that is moving forward
balanced with rythm and cadence.
>She had a great personality and ground manners ...>
what exactly did she do to tell you she had great ground manners? does she
clip, bathe, groom, stand quietly while tied, load in a trailer quietly, etc.?
>Try putting the lead rope on her.
does she wear a halter in the field?
>HA! She always would slip past you, that included knocking you down to get
away. I don't need to explain the other problems, other then they are now
fixed.
She is better now on those issues.>
knocking people over shows little respect for the human's 'space'. The horse
established her dominance at that point, if not before.
<snip leading & lunging>
When you lunge her is it on or off a lungeline? does she work at quiet gaits or
does she only go fast (trot instead of jog, canter instead of lope)?
>I made sure to sack her out.
can you define your sacking out procedures?
>As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him. He
caught it and went flying. That was the end of that for the day.>
hmm, so she was rewarded by not having her hind feet messed with for the rest
of the day. Up to this day were you having trouble picking out her feet or was
this the first time you'd seen her have trouble with her hind feet?
>And so when he lifts up the back hoof he barely takes it but a couple of
inches off the ground and presto it works. As you try and lift her leg up too
far, her muscles bunch up and it is painful and she kicks out.>
When her muscles bunch up what is her body language? what does she do?
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It has
been about a month and a half. She stands nice and still while a saddle her
up.>
Was she lunged and/or ground driven before you tried to ride her on this day?
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her mouth she
starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.The nose and the
mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to this day. >
she still has not learned to pick up the bit properly and carry it properly.
Have her teeth and mouth been checked out by a veternarian ? Does she have wolf
teeth? any sign of previous damage to the tongue, lips or bars?
>As soon as I get one foot in the stirrup she rears up.>
step down, quiet the horse, evaluate the situation. Horses do not rear without
a reason.
>Her head is as far up as she can get it and she's pawing the air. >
are you pulling on the reins? they should be totally loose if a horse goes up
like this
>I try and pull her down and to the side. But with just a snaffle on her head
and her thick neck is too strong. I
can't get her down. Finally it happens, she throws herself over backward. >
driving her forward would have been a much better solution. Horses moving
forward can't rear. They must stop their forward motion in order to initiate
the rear.
>I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
This was a mistake. The horse should have been thoroughly checked out in order
to establish why she reared. (teeth, mouth, saddle fit, twisted cinch, rider
pulling on reins, cold back, etc.)
>I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because I had a good
seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in and prevent her
from rearing. Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways.
the horse tried to rear, was blocked by the tiedown and your hands. Since the
reason for the rearing hadn't been figured out, she simply threw herself on the
ground. Not unusual at all. The reason for the rearing HAS to be understood.
>So, First I call the vet to make sure I haven't missed a problem in her legs
and back. Nope she's fine. I call the horse chiropracter, she too says things
are great.
I take her to his guy I know who makes saddles to check on the fit. Everything
there if fine.>
was she actually seen again by the vet? was she seen by the chiropractor? has
her mouth been checked?
>So I ask for the breeders number. They tell me
she was always a “hot” horse and after green-breaking her, they had considered
shooting her. >
it would be interesting to know what methods they used to start this 'hot'
horse. typically people who are intimidated by hot horses try to restrain them
too much and often end up with horses that do things such as rear!
>I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about any
ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from time to
time.
as I said before, the reason for her wanting to rear needs to be understood.
(teeth, mouth, saddle fit, twisted cinch, rider pulling on reins, cold back,
etc.)
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her.
what exactly does she do? shy sideways? jump? rear? back up? buck? what???
It sounds as though you have a lot of other problems with this mare, not just
that she's 'terrified' of legs touching her.
>Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with a
heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. No good.>
this is trying to cover up the problem, not address it.
>The other trainers that she has seen have all met the same fate I did. Rear up
and over. I told them so, they didn't listen.>
what is the experience level of these trainers? are they experienced in taking
troubled horses and turning them into productive horses? what kind of gear did
they use? what was there preparation procedure?
IMO, there are many gaps in this mare's program. The first thing to do is quit
riding her for now. If she hasn't been thoroughly checked out by a vet who's
very competent she should be. Also a chiropractor.
Her ground work should be continued (assuming she checks out ok with the vet
and chiropractor). She needs to yield softly and slowly to you at all gaits.
She needs lots of work wearing the saddle and also the bridle (no reins, side
reins, etc). Ground driving might help get her used to contact around her legs,
flanks and barrel. It also would give you a chance to drive her forward from
the ground while strongly establishing clucking or kissing as a verbal cue for
GO FORWARD.
She needs to be sacked out properly.
IMO, this mare needs the help of a competent professional trainer. I could not
care less who your relatives are or how much you've rode. I'm older, have
ridden longer, and enjoy the fact that I have access to professional help on a
constant basis. The fact that you've had to resort to the gimmicks you're
using is proof that you need help with this mare.
Think of the kind of horse you want - what are they like? how do they work? do
you know trainers that have horses like that? those trainers would be a good
place to start.
While the mare is in training you could spend your time taking lessons, going
to (and riding in if possible) clinics, watching videos and spending as much
time as possible around good horsemen.
I'm not sure what horse publications you read but there are many out there that
have great articles and columns that discuss the physiology of horses, their
habits and their problems. We all read and learn.There are also some great
books/tapes out there. Try Ray Hunt's book, or John Lyons' and RIchard Shrake's
stuff.
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
>> You may have her *trust*, but do you have her *respect*?
Xena wrote:
>On the ground I do for sure. I believe I now do as well when on her back. But
she is so scared of the legs. I feel she remembers the spurs and the hard
running.>
If the mare is still trying to rear, you do not have her respect or trust.
>Ya but all the ground work is great. We do the same things and she's
wonderful. Hell it's been 3 years now.>
Is there anything on the ground you and other people can't do with her?
bathing, clipping, shoeing, ground tying, loading in a trailer, hotwalkter,
etc.
>I've even tied her head back to the saddle from side to side to make sure she
gives her head well.>
This just teaches horse to lean on the bit. I would be especially careful doing
this on the chance that she's had her mouth damaged somewhere along the line.
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Meghan Noecker
stirrups to simulate legs, something that would touch her barrel as
she moves? And then lunge her? That might be a way to desensitize her
to the barrel touching without risking somebody. Plus rearing would
never be sucessful, so she wouldn't be rewarded by the act.
It seems to me that the only solution is to find some way to
desensitize her to that feeling. It sounds like you've tried many
ways, and it may not be possible. If she were my horse, I'd just keep
trying different ideas and try each for several weeks to see if any
lesson the problem.
Another question. Your farrier mentions that she is muscle bound. Is
this something that you can work on to improve? It may be that she has
having a hard time getting impulsion while carrying extra weight, so
it may be painful to carry a rider even though her back is okay. Ther
are also some neck exercises that may help her if you haven't tried
them already. I would highly recommend checking out Deb Bennet's books
or check out her website.
She does a lot with taking a horse's conformation and working on what
can be changed through exercises, shoeing, etc. When I emailed asking
about seminars, she responded personally, so she may be able to point
you in teh right direction for ways to work with the shorter neck as
well as the hindquarters.
Overall, I would work on desensitizing her, preferably lungeing or
round pen so that you don't have a rider at risk, and you can keep the
gear as light as possible, giving her a full range of motion and
keeping the lesson positive.
Meghan
Friesians in the Northwest
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Alwzhorsn
>> She's learned she can bully with you on her back.
Xena wrote:
>Not anymore.
as long as you have to resort to the gimmicks to keep her from rearing, the
mare IS in control.
>> Everytime she rears, you lose everything.
>She doen't rear anymore. The tiedown stops that. And when the tiedown hasn't
been on she still doesn't. But the longer I ride her the more worked up she
gets that she can't run away with me. The tie down hack is there as a safety
issue when we're out in the bush.>
in your original post on this thread you said she tried to rear when the
tiedown wasn't on. you said she got worse. anyways, her not rearing because
she's got a tiedown on is NOT the same as her not wanting to rear.
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
>Well it's a good, square QH mouth. She's got a big head, but the mouth is
relative to it.
does the horse have a shallow mouth? does she have a deep mouth? where is her
chin groove in relation to the corners of her mouth? does she have a thick
tongue? does she have thick lips and nostrils? does she have a low palette?
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
for what I wanted him to do.
stand and it really helped him learn to associate cues from the saddle with
things he already knew how to do.
>Another thing I did, once he was in good enough shape for it, was to ride him
in the round pen without touching the reins no matter what he did. Sometimes I
had to hang onto the saddle to stay with him, but I made sure I wasn't
bothering his mouth. I knew he didn't buck or rear though, he just went
excellent. you got out of his face and his problems started going away! amazing
isn't it!?
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Kirsty
Is there anyone else you can think of to check this horse out?
Sure sounds like there must be some pain *somewhere* to get such violent
reactions. Horses generally have strong selfpreservation instincts, and
if she will throw herself on the ground and over backwards, well she's
either got a screw loose (which *doesn't* sound like the case), or she's
hurting.
I think the muscle bound problems are playing a part in this. I had an
oesteopath work with my boy for 18 months to sort his back out, and the
difference was amazing. The day she arrived and saw him, she just said
"Oh dear." She could see where he was tight and where he was holding and
favouring. The horse looked completely sound to the untrained eye. It
wasn't sales pitch either. She explained everything to me as she did it,
and I watched the horses reactions, and well, how he goes now is the
proof of the pudding.
If your mare trusts you, she wouldn't be intent on getting you off every
time you get on her back.
Sounds like her reactions are pain-oriented, from what you've said.
Good luck with her.
Kirsty
--
"If, in your heart, you truly believe that any small effort - anything
that is a little better - is cause for celebration, you will ALWAYS have
a good ride."
- Jane Savoie
Alwzhorsn
>> Em, what do you think this means?
Emma answered:
>Physically tying a horse up and forcing them onto the ground. Saw it on work
experience. Not by my coach. ...>
Emma, before you go off thinking sacking out is something it isn't, I recommend
you trot on over to http://www.ceoates.com/articles/Sacking_Out_A_Horse.html
this is Jorene's page on the process of sacking out. We all do it a bit
different but this is the basic process.
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Laura Friedman
> Good for you. I think I'll need a crane to pull her head out. Even when she's out in the field she carries it that way.
> The only time it comes down is to drink. Don't know if it will ever change. But that's not the end of the world. I can live with that.
If she moves like this at liberty, something is horribly wrong
physically and this horse should NOT be ridde. She tucks her chin to
her neck when she is just ambling around? If so, how can you say that
any vet called her "sound"?
> > mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
> > > The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even Get her teeth done and change her bit to some sort of snaffle (nothing STRONGER) with the help of someone who knows what they are doing. It is more than likely that this bit doesn't suit the shape of her mouth.
>
> But I have tried 4 other snaffles and even had 2 other horsemen look it over with me.
Did you try a hackamore or sidepull? Sounds like this horse's teeth are
bothering her, or she is expecting them to.
Laura
Meghan Noecker
<xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Howdy Dawn
>
>> Collecting exercises are WAY not going to help..she needs to STRETCH, not
>> collect.
>
>I know she needs to stretch her neck. But she does not collect herself properly
>either.
>
Collection is great for horses, but not necessary in the beginning.
Since she is so unhappy with a rider, I would wait on the idea of
collection because the attempts will probably just confuse her and
make it worse. It is also very difficult to collect if the horse can't
stretch well or has conformation faults making it difficult.
Even first level dressage horses aren't expected to collect much if at
all. It's great if they do, but the judges are looking more for a
relaxed horse that is obedient, willing, and able to stretch.
I would work on the stretching and relaxing, and put off any ideas of
collection. A horse has to be relaxed to collect anyway. Tenseness
immediately causes the head to come up and the back to fall.
About bits, do you have some local barns or friends with different
bits that you can borrow and experiment with? Or perhaps just use a
bosel for now.
>
>Round pen work with pop bottles tied to the saddle, or sandbags. Any other
>methods of desensitization you want to recommend.
>The problem is she knows the difference between something hanging from the
>saddle and legs from the rider.
>
I'm not sure, but didn't you say she was okay with somebody leading
while you ride? If so, that would be the best way to desensitise her.
Let the person lunge her with you riding. It will probably take
several months, but that would be the best way to show her that rider
does not equal spurs. It would also give you the opportunity to slowly
introduce the leg and let her feel that it does not mean spurs.
Laura Friedman
> Why you are such a BIG help. Wrong! I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been
> riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
>
Your riding and crappy handling of the situation is exactly the issue.
You are unwilling to take responsibility for your role in confusing and
upsetting your horse, and you are completely unwilling to learn.
In short - you are a waste of time and a hazard to your lifestock.
Laura
Jorene Downs
Dawn Lawson <dla...@telusplanet.net> wrote
>
>
> Emma wrote:
>
> > > Em, what do you think this means?
>
> Nope, that's laying down.
> quick, someone post the URL for the sacking out page.....yikes.
LOL! http://www.ceoates.com/articles/Sacking_Out_A_Horse.html
> Sacking out is just desensitising the horse to all sorts of things so
called
> sacking out because a gunny sack was the original thing used, to flap
around
> the horse and get it used to things that can happen.
Close enough. ;)
Jorene Downs
too. So I know it's not my riding.
How many years of regular lessons have you had from a qualified
professional? Clinics and seminars are a great source for information
(assuming qualified instruction) but are no substitute for years of weekly
instruction. "I know it's not my riding" may be true from *your*
perspective, but I'd bet large dollars that a qualified rehab professional
would make a few suggestions that would change what you think is correct.
Don't let your ego come between you and your horse. Your mare has been
sending you messages for 3 years, and you still haven't figured out what she
is telling you or you wouldn't still be having such major problems with her.
Jorene Downs
> > Does she walk at all, ever, even if your legs are completely off her?
>
> No. If I am on her back the best I can get from her is a 3-gait prance.
A "3-gait prance" is known in my neck of the woods as jigging.
> I have come to rather enjoy it and find it comfortable. And boy can we
cover
> ground with it. :-)
When a horse is jigging instead of providing a 1-2-3-4 walk, you have
problems. The mare isn't focused on the rider, and the rider isn't in
charge. This is something to discourage, not encourage. Jigging is caused
by rider error, and if the bad habit the rider is teaching the horse isn't
undone, it can escalate to a bolter or run-away type situation.
> Actually, the only time she doesn't chew the bit IS when we gallop!
Why are you galloping when you don't even have enough control for a 1-2-3-4
walk? Or is this gallop similar to a semi-controlled run-away? If you ask
for a Whoa, do you get a complete stop within 3 strides?
Rehab training occurs one step at a time. I think your training objectives
for this mare should be something along the lines of stand calmly under
saddle, walk calmly under saddle, Whoa promptly and calmly, jog calmly,
walk-jog-walk transitions calmly, etc. Recognize the process? You're
starting from scratch, building a new training foundation since the old one
obviously has massive holes in it.
Jorene Downs
AlaTmPnr <alat...@aol.com> wrote ...
> Jennifer posting as Xena wrote:
[...]
> >I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field, I can
have
> someone lead me around for hours (so long as I don'' touch her barrel).
>
> Roy Yates and I talked about her problems, he suggested riding her with
> a heavy blanket that came down past my legs to cushion the feel. <
>
> DESENSITIZE the barrel from the ground.
You recognize that "pad the horse" from the Roberts video, too, eh? Took him
4 months to accomplish what should have been handled in well under 4 hours.
When he finally got around to desensitizing the horse ... gee, suddenly he
had progress ... ;-/
Jorene Downs
> It begins as soon as I get on.
What do you think this horse has been trying to tell you? A problem with the
saddle fit? (Have you tried other saddles, and other blankets?) A problem
with rider weight on a somehow sore back? Don't rule out female internal
problems making a mare who may appear physically sound to have pain in her
back from extra weight. Spaying her might solve a lot of problems if this
is the issue. Have you consulted with a *very* well qualified repro vet to
rule out this possibility?
R Bishop
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) wrote:
So what? I bet Jack The Ripper was an excellent surgeon during working
hours.....
Sue
Smoke Often.
Die Young.
Muleskinner
>On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:14:50 GMT, "Warrior, Princess, Websurfer"
><xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>that's right Sheila I DO know what it means; is that she doesn't offer hard core ideas. She just spouts
>>theories. A lot of the time that's not good enough.
> I bet you $500 that f you send the horse to sheila, she can
>work her through this. Then she'll just need to teach you how to do
>it.
Up the ante, that's a real BTDT situation hereabouts.
Muleskinner
>In article <37abac09...@news.ultranet.com>,
> res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) wrote:
>>On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:14:50 GMT, "Warrior, Princess, Websurfer"
>><xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>that's right Sheila I DO know what it means; is that she doesn't offer hard core ideas. She just
>spouts
>>>theories. A lot of the time that's not good enough.
>>
>> I bet you $500 that f you send the horse to sheila, she can
>>work her through this. Then she'll just need to teach you how to do
>>it.
>>
> So what? I bet Jack The Ripper was an excellent surgeon during working
>hours.....
Sue, have you ever got your own saddle horse to
quit bucking with you?
Bernadette Noujaim Baldwin
her mouth, teeth and tongue checked out.
You say that she lunges well, how about getting someone to lunge you on
her? Use a neck strap to hang onto if you need it but don't use the
reins. Start off lunging her with no rider, then you mount while
someone else holds the lunge line. Get off and then lunge again. Do
this a couple of times a session for about a week. Then start off with
the walk. Get the lunger to give all the aids, have your legs in the
proper position with a light contact but don't give any aids. After
walking for a while, get off and do some more lunging. Then get up
again and do the walk. Again ditto for a week or so until she is
comfortable with it all. Until she is comfortable do not give leg aids
or move into another pace. When she is comfortable then you start
giving seat aids, then legs aids. Again get on and off during the
lunging lesson as she gets ansty.
I suggest doing this for a couple of reasons a) as the person sitting on
top you can leave her completely alone, the dominence comes from the
lunger, you are free to concentrate on sitting still and without pushing
her, b) she is confident on the lunge and trusts you as a lunger, given
what you write, she will feel more in control and ready for what is
going to happen as I presume that you have never lunged her in gallop
etc she might not associate so closely the spurs and the galloping
sessions.
Bernadette
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote:
>
>(big snip)>
> What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
>
>>
> Jennifer
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>She does the same nose twisting, chewing action even without a bit.
>It begins as soon as I get on.
Jennifer, have you had an equine dentist look at her? Not a vet, but
an equine dental specialist? Vets don't always see the teeth
problems, and it's possible that there's something in a tooth root
which could also be affected when a hack's on her head.
At the hunt seat barn there was one horse with horrible teeth that
were causing all sorts of unexpected repercussions--not behavioral, he
was too good a boy with excellent discipline and mind to do that, but
the bad teeth made him tense up every time and had lameness
implications. She may be tensing up even with a hack just because
she's conditioned to do so with a bit--when I put a hack on a horse
which otherwise was used to locking her lower jaw and stiffening the
bit, she continued to do weird head stuff because she was used to
doing that (and she was much older than DeeDee).
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>I think the muscle bound problems are playing a part in this. I had an
>oesteopath work with my boy for 18 months to sort his back out, and the
>difference was amazing. The day she arrived and saw him, she just said
>"Oh dear." She could see where he was tight and where he was holding and
>favouring. The horse looked completely sound to the untrained eye. It
>wasn't sales pitch either. She explained everything to me as she did it,
>and I watched the horses reactions, and well, how he goes now is the
>proof of the pudding.
Which gives me another idea....
Where are you, Jennifer? Sounds like you might benefit from exposure
to Jean-Claude Racinet. Racinet, besides being an excellent proponent
of French Classical Dressage, is also a *big* proponent of adjustments
and osteopathic (as opposed to chiropractic) manipulations.
Try to find this book: _What The Horses Have Told Me_ by Dominique
Giniaux, D.V.M. (translated by Racinet), Xenophon Press 1992, ISBN
0-933316-07-0. I've seen Racinet do manipulations he's learned from
Giniaux, and it's *amazing* what differences it can make.
jrw
Bill Kambic
I smell the spoor of a Troll(ium)."
If you read all that has been posted on this mare (including the original
stuff) you must come to the conclusion that we are dealing with either the
densest human being since Rach or a troll. Boiled down to its essence, we
have a supremely bad mannered mare owned by a supremely dense woman (girl?)
who posts requests for "help" and then immediately rejects as either "done
but not effective" or "will not help" each and every suggestion. Further,
she declares that none of this is her fault (including the 10 pounds of
leather and iron on the horse's head and neck) and none of it can possibly
flow from her riding skills (on which she is really rather vague). Frankly,
I think we are all being "had."
Lots of people complain that this forum is less than helpful because of
caustic comments, in personam attacks, failure to stick to the subject
(equine husbandry, equitation, etc.). While discussions of horses and
problems that might not really exist can be informative as a game of "what
if," such games clearly have limits. It seems to me that we have reached
such a limit here.
OBHorsey: The Princess should sell the mare and get something she can
handle, like a Harley. Or maybe a Honda 50.
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Kris Carroll
> In short - you are a waste of time and a hazard to your lifestock.
People can only speak from their own limits and experience. No doubt it
seems logical for you to give up on a rehab or shun the less than perfect,
but it is possible to learn better, even after making the most dreadful
mistakes. I have no doubt that most here saw and did a misguided thing or
two as kids. Most managed to get past it. You should give it a try
sometime.
Kris C.
Mary Healey
> She does the same nose twisting, chewing action even without a bit.
> It begins as soon as I get on.
Then she's hurting. Find where it hurts (my guess would be back or
hocks, but that's just a shot in the dark), and either alleviate the
pain or stay the hell off her.
And before you repeat that the vet says there's nothing wrong - vets
aren't infallible, and sometimes you have to find one that will listen
to both you and your horse. My poor vet spends more time with me
tracking down ADR (Ain't Doing Right) than anyone should. But if the
horse says it hurts, then I believe him ahead of any trainer, vet,
farrier, or breeder.
She rears when you step up - that could be pain. She doesn't have much
range of motion in the hindquarters - that's almost certainly pain.
She's afraid of the leg - some of that may be prior handling, but after
three years there must be something else going on.
MPAX
start rearing as an avoidance tactic. Number one, never ride this horse without
a spotter.
I would try training her on the ground to drop her head to pressure from above
and repeat until its automatic. I would also do a lot of ground work mimicing
leg cues.
I have a gelding that is a handful, I am thankful he does everything short of
rearing and bucking. He doesn't shy at anything unless a person is around. Then
all of a sudden the world is a scarey place. I ignore it and make him stand
because I know he's only acting. We've done a lot of dominance exercises so
that I get his respect. One of them is follow the leader. I make him follow me
on the lead line. The better he shadows me, the more I know I'm seen as alpha.
Another is driving him out in the field and making him move where I want him.
When you do mount this horse, please have another person there to pull her
down. Then I would have someone else hold the lunge line while I rode. And then
I would stay at the walk for a long time -- weeks, months and make sure she's
completely relaxed before moving on to another gait. And wear your helmet!!
--Mary
Mary Healey
> Please stop talking to me like a child.
That would be easier to do if you'd quit holding your breath, stomping
your little feets, and pouting.
To recap - being the offspring of a Centaur doesn't make you a horseman,
being old enough to know better doesn't make you a horseman, standing up
and declaring "I am a horseman" doesn't make you a horseman. Careful,
*thoughtful*, patient acceptance of the horse as it is, with an eye to
what it could become, and a feel for what the horse is telling you -
THAT makes you a horseman. And the statements you've made about this
mare indicate that you are no horseman.
> > No wonder you'd cluelessly claimed that some horses can't be expected to stand for mounting.
>
> You're off topic.
No.
> > >As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins.
> >
> > You just love to hurt that poor horse by the reins, don't you.
>
> You're starting to sound like a troll.
You're avoiding the question.
> A hackamore is NOT a harsh piece of equipment when used right.
That's a hack, in addition to the snaffle from a few paragraphs back,
plus a bosal, plus a curb, plus tiedowns and martingales. Weird fetish
you have there.
> And fuck off about me hurting my horse.
Not until you examine the possibility that what you're doing is hurting
your horse.
M.
Laura Friedman
Kris, people can only learn if they are willing to, and this person
clearly isn't when she adamently states that her riding has nothing to
do with the mare's problems.
With horses, as with many things, you're either part of the problem or
you're part of the solution. Regardless of what happened to the horse
before she got it, she is responsible for its training now and must
blame only HERSELF if she isn't getting the responses and behavior she
wants.
Until she takes responsibility for her horse's behavior, she's part of
the problem.
Do you take no responsibility for cowbell's behaviors? You should try
it sometime.
Laura
MPAX
No one's saying you don't know how to ride or how to ride properly. What they
are trying to say is that not all horses can be ridden exactly the same. That
your mare may require a different form or technique. That lessons or someone
else watching may help with a different and more effective approach. It never
hurts to be open to something new.
When a horse is not responding you should always stop and think what you may be
doing wrong. I'm 35 and have ridden since I was 8, but that doesn't stop me
from looking objectively at my own riding. Your usual riding may be right for
most horses, but not this one.
For instance, even though I ride western, sometimes I'll use English. I have
one horse that's lazy and sometimes I post to keep her moving. As she becomes
more responsive, we use subtler and subtler cues.
The gelding is the opposite and I have to keep him relaxed. We spend a lot of
time just standing and just walking. I don't push him into anything he's not
ready for. He has a lot of issues from previous riders also. Try keeping the
sessions short. If nothing else, as others have said, just get on, sit and get
off. I've had to teach the gelding that riding can be painless and fun. I
taught him to stand and relax flawlessly on the ground first. Then I mount ask
him to relax. The first time he relaxed, I got off immediately. Once he was
always relaxed when I mounted, I lengthened the amount of time we sit and
relax.
She just may be a nut. I've seen one that qualified. He actually had the look
in his eye though. Tried to kill a couple people. She may have a hormonal
problem from what you've said. I would get her reproductive system checked.
--Mary
Alwzhorsn
<snipping>
>I have a gelding that is a handful, I am thankful he does everything short of
rearing and bucking. He doesn't shy at anything unless a person is around.
Then all of a sudden the world is a scarey place. I ignore it and make him
stand because I know he's only acting. We've done a lot of dominance exercises
so that I get his respect.>
> One of them is follow the leader. I make him follow me on the lead line. The
better he shadows me, the more I know I'm seen as alpha.>
Interesting, around our place this is called 'VERY BAD'. Is this something that
one of the NH gurus is recommending?
case in point: up the road from us is a gal who does this follow the leader
stuff. they serpentine through cones, over obstacles, etc. Can't get a horse to
lead next to her (like so you can see what they're doing, what they're looking
at, etc.). Horse often is right behind her.
So she shows up at a show one day limping. I ask her what happened. Seems she
was out with this horse and a few others in the paddock and this horse just
decided it was time to leave. well it left alright, it went right over the top
of her and damn near broke her leg in the process. Where was the horse when it
decided to do this? Right behind her.
>When you do mount this horse, please have another person there to pull her
down.>
What?!
a) why not eliminate the rearing before hand?
b) if the horse is going to rear, no person is going to pull it down. Driving a
horse forward is the ONLY appropriate way to avoid rearing.
(P&M)
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
SHuc540722
>I have no doubt that most here saw and did a misguided thing or
>two as kids. Most managed to get past it. You should give it a try
>sometime.
Lord, isn't that the truth. The first official riding lessons I took were TWH
riding lessons. Yes, there is an "art" to it but I wouldn't do it now.
However it does teach you to be very light on the reins. Cueing is finger
flicking & foot movement.
SHuc540722
>Mary wrote:
>> One of them is follow the leader. I make him follow me on the lead line.
>The
>better he shadows me, the more I know I'm seen as alpha.>
>
>
I didn't realise she meant the horse was right behind her. Maybe I'm old but I
was taught that this is never the place for a horse to be because if the fight
or flight response kicks in they may not bother to watch where they are putting
their feet. In addition, you can't look at their body language and just maybe
notice that they feel like running over you or biting you or any of the other
little things that they occasionally do.
Bethe Blasienz
>Don't let your ego come between you and your horse. Your mare has been
sending you messages for 3 years, and you still haven't figured out what she is
telling you or you wouldn't still be having such major problems with her.
Had to snip to get this to send. I must agree with this statement. From my
experiences, when there is something not going right with the horse, it is
ALWAYS me who is causing the problem. But............on the other hand, I have
known a few horses in my lifetime with whom I just didn't click, and nothing I
was going to do was going to fix the situation.......just some thoughts.
Bethe Blasienz
Bryan, Texas
Kris Carroll
> experiences, when there is something not going right with the horse, it is
> ALWAYS me who is causing the problem. But............on the other hand, Ihave
> known a few horses in my lifetime with whom I just didn't click, and nothing I
> was going to do was going to fix the situation.......just some thoughts.
I see it slightly diffently - it's always the rider who is going to have
to fix the problem. But every rider has his/her limitations. Some
combinations are a disaster waiting to happen. And some horses ain't worth
fixing. Some solutions don't happen in the saddle.
Kris C.
Mary Golden
(61 replies when i logged on here!).....
like everyone else said...that tiedown surely isnt teaching that mare
anything...its a temporary band-aid. egads! im just imagning ANY horse going
up and over with a tie-down. evil-contraptions!
i wont comment on all the other equipment. it just put me in mind of my arab
that im training from scratch -- i shuddered. and, jennifer, dont bother to
jump in and claim your mare isnt like mine. i know she isnt. shes being
started correctly -- not like what that "cowboy" did to dee-dee before she got
into your hands.
with all the abuse and rodeo-ing this poor mare has had in her past...she has
every darn right to be petrified! egads... IMHO...she totally isnt ready to be
out riding in the bush. i think just a few minutes is all she can take.
thumbs up to whoever suggested ponying her with a rider -- sans a bridle. it
may begin to make her a bit more comfortable. and, no, that doesnt mean run
her alongside another horse. ponying is an art (so i learned).
all my horses have stood still when mounted. even if they take forever to
learn it. no, all my horses were not perfect.
a note about "i know its not my riding". well, honestly, can you be sure? i
have had to change my style of riding for every single horse i get on. i had
to COMPLETELY change when i started this arab of mine. instead of blaming it
on her, i went and took a few lessons on her (she was only walk/trot at the
time) to help readjust so that i might aid her better.
length of being in the saddle has no bearing on how well you ride or work with
horses. i am 34 and have ridden since i was 6; i have worked with some of the
top coaches in my former sport of hunters; i am in no way and expert, nor do i
claim to be the end all and be all of horse; i do not have the patience for
working with babies and barely handled horses (well, im sure i could, but i
feel it is my biggest weakness). my husband is 34 and he has been working with
horses for the last two years; he has worked with a very limited number of
people in the horse field; he is a beginner rider; he is incredibly gifted
with working with babies and barely handled horses. he has taught three of our
horses (2 babies and one practically wild three year old that we acquired) more
than i -- or many others in this area - ever could. i hate to admit it,
sometimes (that pride thing)...but the man has the touch!
sometimes its not a matter of "how long", but quality and sensibility...that,
and swallowing your pride sometimes. jennifer, it certainly cant hurt to have
a trainer who specializes (TRULY specializes) in problem horses, take a look at
Dee-Dee. The worst you can say is that you're out a few bucks...and that,
maybe, your horse can work past thsese problems if you can also work alongside
that trainer.
Mary and the Crew....presently residing in Northern New York
*************************
"Where are we going? And why am i in a handbasket?"
Penny Acres Farm
osteopathic adjustments? This is the first I've ever heard of this and
would like
to pass the info on to horse friend who uses chiropracter every 3mos on her
horse.
Thank You,Belinda
Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in article
<37ac5347...@news.aracnet.com>...
> On Sat, 07 Aug 1999 19:17:05 +1200, Kirsty <k...@xNOtrSPa.cAMo.nz>
> wrote:
>
> snip
>
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<pennyac...@vallnet.com> wrote:
>Joyce can you give a short defintion between the difference chiropratic and
>osteopathic adjustments? This is the first I've ever heard of this and
>would like
>to pass the info on to horse friend who uses chiropracter every 3mos on her
I'm not an expert, but the manipulations are supposed to be different
(and I'm too lazy to haul the book out again).
But, for example, in humans osteopaths are recognized as MDs while
chiropractors aren't. I think they're similar theories but there was
a philosophical split at one point.
jrw
Meghan Noecker
wrote:
>Warrior, Princess, Websurfer wrote:
>> She does the same nose twisting, chewing action even without a bit.
>> It begins as soon as I get on.
>
>Then she's hurting. Find where it hurts (my guess would be back or
>hocks, but that's just a shot in the dark), and either alleviate the
>pain or stay the hell off her.
>
>And before you repeat that the vet says there's nothing wrong - vets
>aren't infallible, and sometimes you have to find one that will listen
>to both you and your horse. My poor vet spends more time with me
>tracking down ADR (Ain't Doing Right) than anyone should. But if the
>horse says it hurts, then I believe him ahead of any trainer, vet,
>farrier, or breeder.
>
I was thinking about this, and I have another idea on back pain.
One that would explain why a horse would appear sound otherwise.
The horse isn't able to stretch (poor confromation and lack of the
right exercises). We have already established that she isn't able to
stretch in the neck.
So, a horse that can't stretch cannot round her back. Stretching the
neck is part of that manuever.
A horse that cannot round her back cannot assume a weight bearing
posture, thus causing pain when there is weight being carried (and not
when there is not weight). She can't be checked for soundness under a
rider becuase she is won't stand still or walk.
To visualize this, get down on your hands a knees and have somebody
sit on your back. Hollow your back and feel how uncomfortable and
painful it is. Then round your back and see hoe much easier it is to
hold the weight without pain. You won't hurt before or after, but you
will at least feel discomfort during. Add to that the movement of the
rider, and the horse will be in pain (even if the rider is riding
well).
It's the same thing as with people. When you carry something heavy,
you need to tighten and abdominals and RELAX muscles in the back. If
they contract, you you won't be able to carry the weight as well.
I would recommend working on exercises to stretch the neck, especially
as well as the hind end. And not ride her until she stretches well in
each gait while lunging. Then start very slowly by just sitting on her
for 5 minutes at a time a few times a day and just gradually increase
the time to let her relax, stretch, and get used to it as a good
experience.
Meghan
Friesians in the Northwest
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Jai
<37AB4274...@hotmail.com>...
>I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been
>riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
Let me get this straight:
- She puts a foot in the stirrup, horse rears, so she gets on anyway.
- Horse still rears, so she grabs reins and pulls the horse right on over
backwards.
- She runs for martingale, has husband hold horse while horse tries to rear,
she grabs reins, pulls horse over sideways.
- She puts a snaffle bit, mechanical hackamore, and martingale on all at
once.
- She ties the horse's head to the saddle, thinking it will make the neck
more flexible.
And this person thinks her riding is not the issue or the problem.
I have been reading these messages in complete and utter disbelief that a
person can still think the horse is just nuts. Since she has very clearly
demonstrated that advice is not wanted, I can only hope that the mare flips
over on her, rendering her unable to ride for a very long time.
Jessica
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>My mare's name is DeeDee. She is a 12 year old QH. She is 16.2 and
>weighs over 1500lbs. She is a big, barrel chested, bumble butt horse.
>She is EXTREMELY muscle bound.
Why? If she seems 'musclebound' instead of 'muscular' then it indicates
tension, and you won't be able to do much with her unless you get her to relax.
>She also has a short neck and carries her
>head like an Arab. She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
Both behaviours indicate back pain.
>She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
>Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
Well, duh. Your horse will only collect if she's capable of stretching over the
topline...
If there is nothing physically wrong with your horse, and her saddle fits her,
then getting her to stretch is NBD. It takes weeks of persistent, quiet riding,
with very careful timing, but it's not, per se, a problem. Not for a quiet
rider who knows what the horse should feel like and who can shape him with his
seat. I know there are riders who can get this result almost immediately (I've
seen a TB [in full race training] convert from hollow-backed to round and
stretching in under an hour), but for lesser mortals five to six weeks seems
like a sensible timeframe. You'll need another three months to confirm the new
body posture, and the horse might revert to old habits for a while yet, but
the stretching into the rein is the first thing you should work on. If your
horse is really tense, use massage or TEAM-bodywork before you get on. You
might also try to put her under a heatlamp - if works for some horses.
>I only was able to ride her in the corral, so she acted up a bit. I
>expected that. The owner held her while I got on. She was difficult to
>ride but I didn't think much of it. She had a great personality and
>ground manners so I was sure she would be fine with a few hours under
>her. Boy was I wrong.
Whenever you think you can 'sort out' a horse quickly, he'll prove you wrong.
Murphy's law.
<snip groundwork without problems>
>On to lunging. This too was great, with a few reminders.
>She walks, trots, canters and canters trots, walks. She will stop
>in-between each step if asked and will go from stop to canter if asked
>as well. She even backs up! She is always looking at me and pays full
>attention.
How does she move? Is she hollow, does she track up, does she bend correctly,
does she collect and extend properly, does she reach for the ground, are her
strides longer than under saddle or are they the same? Are they as long and
flowing as you would expect, given her conformation? What about hock action and
pelvic tilt?
>The first farrier appointment was real bad. I had been using the same
>guy for quite some time. I had noticed that DeeDee’s hooves were long
>when I got her. Anyhow, the guy has no problem with her front feet. Then
>he moves to the back. As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him. He
>caught it and went flying. That was the end of that for the day.
>I got someone else to come out and trim her the second farrier had the
>same fate.
>At this rate I was running out of farriers.
Often horses with a hock, back or pelvic problem react like that. They're fine
if you pick out feet, not so fine if you hold up their feet for longer periods,
and go absolutely balistic if a farrier asks them to hold their hind feet high
or out towards the side.
>So the third farrier comes along. I tell him about the other two. I
>think he's just going to leave. He doesn't. He looks her over and says,
>“She all muscle bound up”. “She can't lift up her back legs.” And so
>when he lifts up the back hoof he barely takes it but a couple of inches
>off the ground and presto it works.
Kudos for your farrier! Haven't you noticed that when you pick her feet out?
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It
>has been about a month and a half.
>She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
>mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
>The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
>this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Did you get her teeth checked? What is her mouth conformation like? She sounds
uncomfortable with the bit to the extreme. Does she show the same reaction to a
bitless bridle?
>Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in
>the stirrup she rears up. Now I've done saddle bronc before, I don't
>come off a horse real easy.
Well, I reckon my head's too valuable to risk it like that. If she's THAT
uncomfortable about being ridden, there is nothing to be gained in persevering.
Did you mount from a block? Did you have anyone to hold her? Or rather, stand
by her head if she feels confined?
<snip bravado>
>Got my husband to
>come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
If a horse rears, confining it will make the problem worse.
>While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to
>let go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
>I had a good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in
>and prevent her from rearing. Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
>in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways. Ouch, my leg hurt.
Poor thing. Well, you got on voluntarily, in full knowledge that something like
that might happen, at least from the moment you got on despite her first rear.
*SHE* didn't ask to be there. Horses are reactive - the rider needs to find out
*what* makes the horse react like that, and why she felt she had a preadator on
her back.
>First I call the vet to make sure I haven't missed a problem in her legs
>and back. Nope she's fine. I call the horse chiropracter, she too says
>things are great.
>I take her to his guy I know who makes saddles to check on the fit.
>Everything there if fine.
Silly question: what does she do when you sit on her bareback?
>So,
>I call the guy a bought her from and he doesn't give me much info about
>what he's done to her. So I ask for the breeders number. They tell me
>she was always a “hot” horse and after green-breaking her, they had
>considered shooting her. But instead sold her to the guy I bought her
>from.
>I went around the area and asked people if they ever saw this guy out
>riding DeeDee. A lot had. Later I got the guy to admit how he rode her.
>For the 6 years he had rode her hard with spurs and did nothing but
>gallop her and then get off. The poor horse.
Well, she's obviously not been treated too well - but, OTOH, you must admit
that somehow she wasn't pulling the same stunts with him that she did with you.
If she was rearing the moment he put his foot into the stirrup, would his spurs
have been of any use? Hardly.
>Things made sense after that.
They don't to me. Other than that I would wonder about the state of her health
after that.
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
>ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
>minutes.
You, as a rider, need to be almost invisible on a horse like that - barely
there - but at the same time the leg-touching thing is the first you need to
adress. You must get the message across that your legs against her sides don't
MEAN anything. Have you tried just letting her stand in order to relax? Take
deep breaths, think happy thoughts, maybe put some classical music on, and
breath deeply and audibly until she lets go of her held breath.
>What I can't figure out is how to make her realize that my legs are ok..
>
>I can leave the saddle on her for hours while she in the field, I can
>have someone lead me around for hours (so long as I don'’ touch her
>barrel).
You said she was sacked out. Can you handle a whip while you're on her back?
Can you swing objects and touch her while you're on her back? How, exactly,
does she react when you touch her? Does she shoot forwards? If so, give her
room to do so, pat her, tell her it's ok, and do it again.
>For the most part I think she is just going to have to be a pet. I don't
>want to put her down and I can't sell her.
>
>I have my own “good” horse to ride and 2 others I’m training. But I
>don't like to just give up on something.
Sometimes you must. I just met such a case last week. The mare isn't safe to
ride, handles fine from the ground, is ok under saddle, and without warning
explodes. The whole horse is one held breath. Tense. Tight. I have no idea what
causes the problem, but the horse is obviously in pain, although vet and co
can't find anything. I wouldn't mind working with her, but I couldn't make
promises to get to the bottom of the problem. The owners have tried long and
hard, and are ready to give up. I don't blame them. It's a lot safer if they
do. Nobody will blame you for being sensible.
Catja
and Billy
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>>Your mare's head isn't going to come down where it belongs, nor will she
>>stretch until you engage her hindquarters,
>
>Actually, the stretch rather often precedes
>the engagement of the quarters.
She'll have to work out the right stretch:engagement ratio for her horse. For
most of the horses I've ridden, the stretching came from asking them to engage.
Young William, OTOH, went through an extensive period (as in: several weeks) of
learning to simply stretch his neck down without any kind of engagement from
behind. Getting there from his racing giraffe state was a careful juggling
between asking him to engage, and allowing him to stretch without engagement.
He's got a long, weak back, and straight hindleg, and finds both collection
and extention absolutely alien concepts.
Once we reliably had the stretch, we could really add the engagement, a
progression I've never come across before. It took a lot of that before he came
really through. Once he'd discovered suspension, there was no stopping him.
Catja
and Billy (the horse with The Trot)
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>The guy told me he used a snaffle on her. I have tired a few other snaffles
>and a couple of curbs. As soon as the curb is in she starts this head tossing
>from side to side. Ouch, hit me in the head once.
>She seems better with the snaffle.
But not comfortable, either. What kind of snaffle? Eggbutt, KK, straight bar
nathe? They'll get you completely different reactions from a horse who's not
comfortable with one of them. The happy and relaxed horse will generally go
equally well in either.
>Well I didn't know there was going to be any problems. After all she was 9.
If she was used as a broodmare, unridden for quite a bit, and fizzy and
difficult when you tried her out, the you KNEW you had a problem of some sorts,
not the perfectly trained horse. When I pulled Young William out of the pasture
last year, after three months off, I had someone hold him while I got on,
stayed in half seat for a few strides, then sat down, and hacked him out for
twenty minutes. Zilch problems. Neither the foal nor the three month gap
account for her behaviour when you tried her.
I'll call a sixteen year old green if it acts green.
>Sorry my fault. yes she wears both the saddle and the bridle in the round pen
>for hours.
Why? That's not going to accomplish anything if she's scared. She'll need work
in hand, wearing a bridle, if that's what makes her uncomfortable - not
abandoning.
>I've even tied her head back to the saddle from side to side to make sure she
>gives her head well.
Tying the head to the saddle doesn't teach the horse anything. Holding the head
in an unnatural position like that creates strain on muscles and ligaments,
which will be compensated by tension in other parts of her body. You're
introducing tension, not relieving it.
>I'm not sure if she will ever stop the chewing action. Monty Roberts says
>it's how a horse shows acceptance. I don't know.
Quiet mouthing, which doesn't produce a great amount of foam, is a sign of
relaxation. Those horses will lick their lips from time to time but not 'chew'
the bit. You'll get the same action in a hackamore or cavesson.
The chewing, which involves a lot of foam, and constant relocation of the bit
in the horse's mouth, is a sign of stress.
Catja
and Billy
Bethe Blasienz
>From: kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll)
>Date: Sat, 07 August 1999 05:04 PM EDT
>I see it slightly diffently - it's always the rider who is going to have
>to fix the problem. But every rider has his/her limitations
And those riders who recognize those limitations will probably be safer in the
long run.
> Some
>combinations are a disaster waiting to happen.
Those types of situations I see often and just literally cringe. Riders
overmounted seems to be the most common.
>And some horses ain't worth
>fixing. Some solutions don't happen in the saddle.
Some horses aren't worth the time of day is true. And some solutions don't
happen in the saddle---the filly we have who I am sure comes from hell,
solutions for her have been coming more from groundwork than with me in the
saddle. Always a work in progress.....
Bethe Blasienz
Bryan, Texas
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>> Collecting exercises are WAY not going to help..she needs to STRETCH, not
>> collect.
>
>I know she needs to stretch her neck. But she does not collect herself
>properly either.
She doesn't need to 'stretch her neck.' She needs to stretch over the topline,
which involves suppleness of the back. By 'not collecting' do you mean that she
doesn't sit down, or do you mean that she's disunited and strung out?
>> Why weren't you working on correcting this problem,
>
>This is physical. She gets massaged and stretched , that's about I can think
>to do.
Muscles are rarely involved in that problem - hip, stifle and hock are the
usual culprits if a horse that's otherwise willing shows himself unable to lift
the hind legs high.
>I didn't lift her legs up very far to pick them out. Some farriers pull them
>up higher.
>Plus it was only about 2 weeks after getting her that I called for the
>farrier.
Did you have a vet examn done when you bought her?
>> But she was nearly a canner BEFORE that. Did he talk about her rearing?
>
>Yes. If he tried to walk her and he told me he usually mounted her running.
>Why?
>I haven't got a clue. Guess he wanted to be a movie cowboy. LOL
Or because the horse has a back problem that is aggravated when she's asked to
stand?
>I always stay near by the watch her. my stirrups are moved up high.
>As for falling on my saddle, that's ok. It's had it happen many times over the
>years by many horses. I use an Aussie Stock saddle with no horn. It takes a
>good lickin'.
The tree doesn't. If you have an English-style tree you need to have it checked
*every single time* a horse goes over on it or rolls on it. They don't just
break (which is comparatively easy to find out if you know what you're doing),
they also twist, which causes major back pain to the horse, but might be
invisible to the rider.
Catja
and Billy
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>> >Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
>> Luck doesn't exist, and collection isn't achieved with the reins.
>
>Well I know a lot of people who will disagree with that comment.
Maybe that's because, unlike Sheila, they have no idea what collection is
ABOUT? People who think they need to collect their horses with the reins
usually don't have horses that collect properly. The good rider will ask the
horse to collect, and when he complies, take the resulting slack out of the
reins to reestablish the contact.
Catja
and Mork (who will collect himself, but does not suffer 'being collected' with
the reins)
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>> Does she walk at all, ever, even if your legs are completely off her?
>
>No. If I am on her back the best I can get from her is a 3-gait prance.
Does she *stand* under saddle when you're on her back?
>The only time she waks is when is has no one on her back. She does walk with
>the bridle and saddle on, so long as there isn't a person in it.
Think happy thoughts and think of a rhythmical walk. Find out how to get her to
relax - walking obviously isn't it, but do standing, forward riding, or lots
and lots of bending exercises work? Can you just chat to your husband while
you're riding her, completely ignoring your horse?
>> Now, about the leg. With Rudy, I thought he was afraid of the leg but
>> now I think he was just so tense he was in "flight mode" and couldn't
>> really take my direction at all -- legs, hands, weight, anything. Once
>> he calmed down, he was still a little afraid of the leg but it was much
>> easier to work through problems when he was calm enough to learn.
>
>Because she is so "hot" I don't know if she'll even calm down.
Apart from horses with physical problems, I haven't yet met a 'hot' horse that
wasn't calm. 'Hot' in my book means 'highly reactive' as opposed to 'laid-back'
- but calmness or nervousity are not linked to that. Billy is far more nervous
than the majority of 'hot' TBs I've met.
Catja
and Billy
Kris Carroll
> Those types of situations I see often and just literally cringe. Riders
> overmounted seems to be the most common.
Sometimes wonder what makes a sale - and would guess the final decsion is
rarely an objective one. How many people have a good honest opinion on
hand when they approach horse buying? Often a mistake isn't realised let
alone admitted until weeks after the sale. Then what? Turn around and sell
the horse? Most people will attempt to live with it. Take yourself off to
a good trainer? Who may or may not inform you the horse isn't suitable for
your level, your discipline, whatever. Then what? Most people will go into
deep denial and pretend they have a unpolished gem no one else recognizes.
Which is always fun until someone gets hurt, usually the horse.
Kris C.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Noecker) wrote:
snip
>I would recommend working on exercises to stretch the neck, especially
>as well as the hind end. And not ride her until she stretches well in
>each gait while lunging. Then start very slowly by just sitting on her
>for 5 minutes at a time a few times a day and just gradually increase
>the time to let her relax, stretch, and get used to it as a good
>experience.
Yes.
The infamous "carrot stretches" are good for this. Put the horse in a
place where she can't move around too much (corner of a corral or
stall), stand with your back to her shoulder, and entice her with a
carrot or other treat to bring her head around. Repeat a couple of
times, then do on the other side. Even stiff old Porsche was able to
bring her head around past my body after a few sessions of carrot
stretches. Watch DeeDee's range of motion as you do this, and let me
know how it goes, because that'll tell you a lot about how she's
progressing. If she can't bend her head even as far as your body,
that should be a big signal that there's a serious biomechanical
problem.....but she should loosen up with careful work.
Also, try to lure her head down between her knees with a carrot.
Again, it took several sessions before old Porsche was able to really
flex and do it, but once she did....
Totally off thread...speaking of old Porsche, I went back to the old
hunt seat barn to watch a show. THE OLD INSTRUCTOR FROM HELL IS
GONE!!! Her replacement was highly praised by *everybody.*
Unfortunately, the old instructor not only drove away many of the
adult students but apparently hurt several of the old timer horses
through overuse and excessive demands. *Bad* hurt, as in crippling.
Porsche, of course, being the bloody-minded and self-protective old
gal she is, wasn't one of them. So who knows....y'all might start
hearing about her again, as I think I may add the occasional jumping
lesson into the mix while still keeping the Western stuff going!
jrw
Penny Acres Farm
Belinda
Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in article
<37ad09b5...@news.aracnet.com>...
J.A.Zanot
>
>"Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum
>I smell the spoor of a Troll(ium)."
>
>If you read all that has been posted on this mare (including the original
>stuff) you must come to the conclusion that we are dealing with either the
>densest human being since Rach or a troll. Boiled down to its essence,
>we
>have a supremely bad mannered mare owned by a supremely dense woman (girl?)
>who posts requests for "help" and then immediately rejects as either "done
>but not effective" or "will not help" each and every suggestion. Further,
>she declares that none of this is her fault (including the 10 pounds of
>leather and iron on the horse's head and neck) and none of it can possibly
>flow from her riding skills (on which she is really rather vague). Frankly,
>I think we are all being "had."
>snippage<
>OBHorsey: The Princess should sell the mare and get something she can
>handle, like a Harley. Or maybe a Honda 50.
Good golly Miss Molly, I think you may have something there, Bill. Yep, sounds
very fishy to me too, and I have intentionally stayed outta of the foray
because it sounded so *strange* from the get go.
My vote is shoot the horse, or the girl, or both. No losses either way.
~Jaz. J.A. Zanot
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(remove: zzz, to reply)
CATJA ALEXANDRA PAFORT
>Good for you. I think I'll need a crane to pull her head out. Even when she's
>out in the field she carries it that way.
Which way? Up in the air or nose to her chest?
>The only time it comes down is to drink. Don't know if it will ever change.
>But that's not the end of the world. I can live with that.
But she can't. Even if she had no physical problem to begin with, years of
going hollow (both positions you've described are hollow) will give her an
almighty back ache.
It's not as unique as you think. Billy used to be like that - heck, he was even
standing in the stable with his head high in the air and his back completely
rigid. Totally unable to relax. Same when out in the field - whenever he moved,
it was heavily on the forehand and hollow to the extreme. *THAT* takes time to
change. But it's not impossible.
Catja
and Billy (whose nose droops low when relaxed and who moves much freer in the
field these days)
Muleskinner
>She doen't rear anymore. The tiedown stops that ...
Which mistaken assumption could cost you.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
Sheryl L. White
In article <HPzr3.970$El5.2...@news.sgi.net>, green*@tristate.pgh.net
>> "Warrior, Princess, Websurfer" <xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>She doen't rear anymore. The tiedown stops that ...
>
> Which mistaken assumption could cost you.
You can say that again. The gear can fail, resulting in a flip. I think
WPW needs to keep somebody present whenever she rides this mare, so the
ambulance can be fetched ASAP. This is a crushed pelvis in the making, IMO.
Sheryl
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>Good golly Miss Molly, I think you may have something there, Bill. Yep, sounds
>very fishy to me too, and I have intentionally stayed outta of the foray
>because it sounded so *strange* from the get go.
Bill and Jaz--
I can see where it would appear that this unfortunate saga would
appear to have emerged from the muck of trolldom.
Unfortunately, in the same way that Bill and Tamera can smell the Dark
Side of TWH World and Jaz the Dark Side of Dressage World where I
don't have a clue (based on lack of knowledge), I have this nagging
suspicion that this is an example of the Dark Side of Western World.
In other words, it's all too real to me. I can believe it because
I've seen folks fully capable of doing stuff like this. If you look
at the "mounting block tip" which Jennifer gives us, it fits the
profile of such a person completely. Hardware fixes. Playing with
doodads. Claiming training and riding skill when in reality most of
it is riding "at" horses and resorting to hardware instead of taking
the necessary time to train and reschool a horse like this and fixing
one's own riding skills. It's the "ain't a horse that's never been
rode" mindset without the following "and ain't a cowboy who's never
been throwed."
Mind you, we don't see much of it on this newsgroup, but I've heard
stories in my past (and talked to folks who have done the recovery
work on the results) which sound very, very similar to this saga.
When I was a teenager I had a neighbor with a couple of horses she'd
rescued from backyard horsebreakers--one, dubbed a "killer", had
received similar treatment as this mare has from previous handlers.
My neighbor considered this gelding to be Old Reliable and frequently
rode him while pregnant, and packing her small children.
Now I'd thought it had dried up and gone away; apparently I've been
way too optimistic. But the equipment fixes (although I hadn't heard
of combining a bosal and tiedown, I've known some peabrains who'd have
tried it) and the techniques of dealing with the rearing (as well as
bashing on through the riding fight) match what I've heard about what
some backyard horsebreakers have tried over the years (that yanking
the horse down from a rear especially).
jrw
posted and mailed to Bill and Jaz.
Jane H. Kilberg
<xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
This is a combination of various posts (parts) by the above poster in
regard to a 12 yo mare the poster obtained in 1996.
>What I am hoping for is someone to tell me after reading my story is a
>few ideas to solve the problem.
>I have done all the ground work and re-training
>from the beginning. No this was an abused horse and I need an innovative
>idea.
>She is EXTREMELY muscle bound.
Some horses are heavy type IIB (sprint or fast twitch type). One has to be
aware of possible muscle problems such as azoturia or exertional
rhabdomyolysis (ER).
>She touches her chin to her chest when being ridden.
>She doesn't stretch out her neck straight.
>Have tired many collecting exercises to fix this. No luck.
From the horse's POV, the tight neck and keeping chim to chest is evasion.
In this case, collection won't help until the horse becomes relaxed.
>I only was able to ride her in the corral, so she acted up a bit. I
>expected that. The owner held her while I got on. She was difficult to
>ride but I didn't think much of it. She had a great personality and
>ground manners so I was sure she would be fine with a few hours under
>her. Boy was I wrong.
This sounds like a horse with rider acceptance difficulties, however,
generally a horse who is evasive under saddle will also be evasive on the
ground.
>When I first got her to the farm she was instantly the lead mare.
This tells me that she is aggressive in her nature. IOW, she has no
problems taking control, nor expressing herself. This is good because it
makes it easy to work with a horse who is expressive.
>Catching her was a chore. I would bring out the
>oats and shake the pail.
Food is only a temporary measure. Hard to catch horses are horses who
evade dealings with humans for one reason or the other. It takes a bit of
finese and understanding of the horse, but one can teach the horse to
stand to be caught even if in a herd of 50 on 100 acres.
If this is still a problem for you, let me know and I'll get into a
long-winded detail post on how to catch a horse who doesn't want to be
caught without working your butt off. <SEG> (I like to do things the easy
way if possible.)
>Try putting the lead rope on her. HA! She always would slip past you,
>that included knocking you down to get away.
When a horse who is evasive not only in being hard to catch but also takes
your space without permission, you have a horse who hasn't learned humans
are alpha. IOW, this is a horse who will do what you want as long as she
tolerates it. If she doesn't, she'll take over.
>She is better now on those issues. But she doesn't trust anyone but me.
Because she doesn't "trust" anyone else, she still doesn't accept humans
as her leader or alpha. So work in this area needs to be done. For this
you can use a friend who is familiar with horses or a relative. If this is
still a problem, let me know, I'll post specific information on this type
of retraining which is slightly different approach than that of a
youngster.
>Now she comes to me when I call her. She loves her belly rubbed and when
>taking food from me is SO gently she's like a baby.
Yup, this is because she tolerates it quite well. Do something she doesn't
accept and you'll see evasion. Quite common for horses that are abused.
>She leads great. Stays in the right position, stops when I stop; goes as
>I step, you don't even need to ask her to move. She also stands.
>On to lunging. This too was great, with a few reminders.
>She walks, trots, canters and canters trots, walks. She will stop
>in-between each step if asked and will go from stop to canter if asked
>as well. She even backs up! She is always looking at me and pays full
>attention.
>She stands still for grooming, vet care, and saddling.
>We then went over some more ground techniques. First the basics then
>more advanced. We worked on wheeling/spinning. Turn the front legs
>around the back. And reverse.
>I made sure to sack her out. No problems. She's completely sound.
Since your current difficulty is pressure communication on her sides, when
you do ground work with her, particularly exercises such as turn on the
fore and hind, she should react to pressure you place on her girth area.
Most horses that don't accept riders and/or are fearful of leg pressure
will also show this in ground work. If she doesn't and accepts all
pressure when doing ground work and yields softly, then the rider
difficulty is more than simply leg pressure acceptance problems.
>Anyhow, the guy has no problem with her front feet. Then
>he moves to the back. As he lifts up her hoof she kicks out at him.
>So the third farrier comes along.
>He looks her over and says,
>She all muscle bound up. She can't lift up her back legs. And so
>when he lifts up the back hoof he barely takes it but a couple of inches
>off the ground and presto it works.
>As you try and lift her leg up too far, her muscles bunch up and it is
>painful and she kicks out.
Evasive techniques here which is common for mistreated horses. Unless
there is a physical reason such as bruised or stretched
tendons/muscles/ligaments, a horse even with type IIB muscling (fast
twitch) is capable of lifting a hind leg to the level of the farrier's
thigh and to be stretched behind. If a horse is inacapable of doing this
normally, then you would feel it when riding and the horse would be
incapable of galloping. The back leg of a horse raises and stretches far
more when galloping than it does for farrier work.
>So the day comes to saddle her up and ride her around in the corral. It
>has been about a month and a half.
>She stands nice and still while a saddle her up.
>I put a simple snaffle in her mouth. As soon as the bit gets in her
>mouth she starts a huge chewing action and twitching her nose around.
>The nose and the mouth never stop going until the bit comes out. Even to
>this day. Even if I ride her for 4 hours.
Once again, this mare is very expressive and talking to you full hilt
boogie. She is tense and fearful probably due to past experiences as you
so indicated. The first thing on my priority list in dealing with horses
like these is to forget the bit. I use a sidepull. If you are skilled, you
can also use a bosal. Her communications tell me, riders in the past were
heavy handed in one form or another. In all probability, the riders were
afraid of her power. This is common and riders tend to try to control the
horse through the head which produces lots of evasion communications such
as grabbing of the bit, constant chewing, chin tucked to chest, rearing,
kicking out, falling over - any type of behavior the horse can do to
alleviate the situation.
When I got horses like these, I would not use a bit at all. In fact, I
barely use reins if I can because the reins are generally ineffective at
this point. If the horse becomes evasive with leg use, I don't even use
leg - just body weight shift. Once the horse learns that the "imagined"
heavy hands and legs aren't forthcoming, it will begin to relax under
saddle just so long as the rider is consistent, firm yet fair and treats
the horse in kind.
>Anyhow, I go to step up into the saddle. As soon as I get one foot in
>the stirrup she rears up.
Yup, BTDT. This is a horse who doesn't want a rider on board and she's
pretty dang obvious in her communications about it.
>So with one foot in and the horse up in the
>air I swing the other leg over. Her head is as far up as she can get it
>and she's pawing the air. I try and pull her down and to the side.
You do like to risk your life, don't ya! <SEG> Although I can understand
what you were attempting, this method doesn't help because your safety is
at risk. I've retrained many a horse like this and I do value my life. In
these type situations, provided the horse is relaxed and not tense and
only gets that way as soon as one approaches to mount up, my approach is
quite different.
As soon as the horse shows any signs of tenseness, I immediately work to
relax the horse. What I do will depend on the individual horse and
situation whether it is simply approaching the stirrup or actually putting
a foot into the stirrup. I don't proceed to the next step (mounting into
the saddle) until the horse is relaxed and calm as I put the foot into the
stirrup and hop around. Once the horse accepts that step, then and only
then will I ever swing a leg over. Once onboard, I'll just sit, then get
off and repeat many times until the horse remains calm and relaxed. I'll
do various exercises such as rub my legs on the barrel & shoulder, slide
my hand or leg over the rump so if someone accidently conks a horse's butt
when mounting the horse doesn't get upset. I'll also wiggle around, stand
in stirrups, get on and off both sides of the horse. I don't proceed with
each exercise until the horse remains calm and relaxed.
>Finally it happens, she throws herself over
>backward.
When one door gets closed, another one opens up. One needs to communicate
to a horse on a step by step basis and only proceed when the horse is calm
and relaxed. Be consistent, firm yet fair and treat the horse in kind.
>As soon as she gets up I grabbed her by the reins. Got my husband to
>come out and hold her. I went and got the martingale and put it on her.
>While he held her I got back on. DeeDee stood dead still. I told him to
>let go. I asked her to walk on and she tried to rear again, but because
>I had a good seat and some extra leverage I was able to turn her head in
>and prevent her from rearing. Instead she took a cattywupsus fit around
>in circles and threw herself on the ground sideways.
This method is an old time fix that doesn't help the horse to learn to be
relaxed and calm. What you are doing is forcing the horse not to do
certain behaviors as long as that equipment is on her. However, eventually
the horse will come up with another evasive behavior. This is the same
thing the former riders/owners did. Perhaps in a different manner or
different equipment, but to the horse it means being extremely
uncomfortable. A horse will evade any time it thinks (real or imagined)
that it will be uncomfortable. In effect, the horse will attempt to take
over in order to preserve itself.
>So,
>First I call the vet to make sure I haven't missed a problem in her legs
>and back. Nope she's fine. I call the horse chiropracter, she too says
>things are great.
>They tell me
>she was always a hot horse and after green-breaking her, they had
>considered shooting her.
From what you describe, I wouldn't call her a 'hot' horse but one who is
aggressive, and one who will take control when she thinks she is not being
treated fairly. From what you post, she is a classic case of a horse who
wasn't trained very well.
>For the 6 years he had rode her hard with spurs and did nothing but
>gallop her and then get off.
> (reared) If he tried to walk her and he told me he usually mounted her
running.
Although history is nice to have, it doesn't change anything. You have a
tense, confused horse who hasn't been treated fairly, nor in kind and
probably not treated consistently. For you to be able to help her, you
need to look at different approaches than the ones you have been using.
>I put the hackamore tiedown on her so that I don't have to worry about
>any ideas she gets to rear up and over on me. I take it on and off from
>time to time. When it's off she's worse.
See above, but this is exactly my point - and the horse's too. She is
tense and wants to take command. When you limit that in a forceful manner
(tie downs, etc), it is only a quick fix and future evasion behaviors will
take place, perhaps in a different form, but it will happen.
>She doen't fight the saddle or tie down on her own. Ownly when
>someone gets on her does it become a problem.
Understandable - and your approach needs to be one that will consistently
help her become relaxed and calm. It takes various steps along the way,
but you can retrain a horse like yours in about 60-90 days.
>Once again after the problem, I went back to introducing the rider. I can
>lean on her no problem.
Yet, if you put the foot in the stirrup, she would rear. This is a horse
who isn't relaxed and calm about this step.
>She has gone thru days of carrying around sand bags and being lead and lunged
>with them. No problem.
>The biggest problem is that she is terrified of legs touching her. If I
>ask her to walk-on and not gallop she is completely lathered in 15
>minutes.
Leg cues are pressure communications on the barrel. You can work this on
the ground. Once she remains relaxed and calm when you mount up, sit there
and just hang your legs. Then take one rub of one leg, then stop and sit.
It she moves around a bit, that's okay. Repeat as often as necessary until
she becomes desenitized and accepts feeling the leg on the barrel.
When moving, just hold the legs against her barrel but don't apply leg
cues at first - use your body weight shift. Once she is relaxed and calm
with that, then add a bit of leg pressure - on then off at first. Don't
hold the leg pressure. Continue each step only as she communicates to you
that she accepts what you are doing.
>Actually, the only time she doesn't chew the bit IS when we gallop!
All that bit chewing is communication signs of tenseness and confusion,
being unsure of what is going to happen, being fearful of the rider.
Horses don't chew at the gallop due to the stretch of their neck.
>I use an Aussie Stock saddle with no horn.
This is fine - any ol' saddle as long as it fits the horse is okay.
>After the "first" time I can now mount up and she stands still. But as my
>legs wrap around her after getting my seat she starts to prance and sweat.
>Her ears go back to look at me and my husband says her eyes roll around and
>she twists her nose up so far you can see her teeth.
You don't say what you do when this occurs. How you communicate to her
during this step, will either aggravate her even more or she will slowly
change her behavior. Perhaps you can expound on what you do when this
happens and I might be able to pinpoint things for you a bit more.
>If I am on her back the best I can get from her is a 3-gait prance.
>I have come to rather enjoy it and find it comfortable. And boy can we cover
>ground with it. :-)
It you like it, then you don't have any problems????? But if you don't and
want to help the mare change her behaviors, then you need to approach
things a bit differently. Her prancing is because she is tense and not
relaxed, nor comfortable with you on her back. She wants you off and will
take any measures she can possibly do to make it so.
>The only time she waks is when is has no one on her back. She does walk with
>the bridle and saddle on, so long as there isn't a person in it.
Once again, this mare is tense, not trusting, not accepting of any person
on her back, including you. If she was, then you would have a relaxed,
calm horse who accepts your cues readily including leg cues and all
without martingales and tie downs and other equipment besides the basic
bridle and saddle. She communicates all this quite well.
>If any horse gets out in front of her she takes a cattywupsus fit on me.
This is common in horses who are alpha. One needs to work with the horse
to focus on the rider instead of the other horse or distraction. But
first, the horse has to view the handler/rider as its leader/alpha in all
situations.
>I come from a long line of horse trainers and cowboys. I've been
>riding since I was 4 years old. My riding is not the issue or the problem.
>I am 29 years old.
I am not considering your riding at all, but you will need to consider
different approach if you want to end up with a well mannered, relaxed and
calm mare who will accept leg cues from you.
Hopefully, I've given you some ideas to review in your mind and for you to
change your approach to something that fits this particular horse. You
aren't the first one with a horse who has evasive behaviors and you won't
be the last.
You'll need to work out goals you want to achieve, then break those goals
down into smaller steps, then break those smaller steps down into even
smaller steps depending on your mare's communications to you.
This is pretty long and there is much information I've included, so take
your time and review it before responding. If you'd like, you can e-mail
me.
p&m
down the spotted trails. . . in the great nation of Tejas
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
robf...@my-deja.com
"Jorene Downs" <Jor...@CEOates.com> wrote:
>
> Warrior, Princess, Websurfer <xena_lo...@hotmail.com> wrote
clinincs
> too. So I know it's not my riding.
>
> "I know it's not my riding" may be true from *your*
> perspective, but I'd bet large dollars that a qualified rehab
professional
> would make a few suggestions that would change what you think is
correct.
Even professionals have riding instructors. If I can ever get healthy
enough again to get back to riding regularly, I'm going to find me a
beginning dressage instructor, to supple and train both me and the fat
Deedle mare. I'm 42, been riding since I was 6. But I'll be the first to
admit I'm not a perfect (or probably even very good) rider. I *can*
stick on just about anything, tho, but that's a function of balance and
seat, not riding ability.
>
> Don't let your ego come between you and your horse. Your mare has been
> sending you messages for 3 years, and you still haven't figured out
what she
> is telling you or you wouldn't still be having such major problems
with her.
This is probably the best advice you're going to get. All the tips 'n'
tricks anyone can give you on this ng won't do you a lick of good until
you put that ego aside and start to *listen* to your horse. They tell
you everything you need to know--all you have to do is shut up long
enough to understand them.
And they will even tell you when they are too nuts to continue on. Mark
Rashid describes several instances of this in "A Good Horse Is Never A
Bad Color". Some horses are too crazy to live, being a danger to
themselves and others, and will ask the human to do something about it.
You might have to accept the idea the breeders knew what they were
talking about (even tho they chickened out) and put this mare down for
her good and your safety.
--
Lorri
Scratchbottom Shires
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/4242
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> you'd agree a tiedown is not ideal.
Of course. She's my only horse I have to do this with. :-(
> Transitions keep a horse busy. A busy horse doesn't have time to think up
> tricks.
True.
> Ditto leg yield, oops better not try that.
LOL! :-) Repeat after me ... suicide. <big grin>
> Just to be really evil, have you tried her bareback, so she could really feel
> your seat?
Have done that a few times. I have the scars to prove it! I thought have the saddle
or maybe the stirrups were bothering her. I also wanting to go back to basics. When
I break a horse in for the first time a preffer to do it bareback for that reason.
It was really bad with DeeDee. I felt her tense up as soon as legs came across her
barrel. My husband lead us around, it didn't take 5 minutes until she was lathered
completely from fear; and she immediately started prancing. Ugh.
> > Besides I have always believe you don't chase the horse you make them come to
> > you. That's just my opinion maybe.
>
> Hard to insist upon when you have 300 acres of desert mountians and woodlands.
Actually they get "snacks" in the same place at the same time each day. So they are
usually there waiting for me. If they are not I just blow this air horn I have and
they come running! :-)
> I dare you to try bare legs, bareback. <EG>
Haha
> I do have another observation, just my bias showing. Are you sure you have
> the seat finesse to help this mare?
Yup.
> Bronc riding, et al isn't exactly high school.
> I'm not saying you're a
> jerk, just that this mare has found your weak spot and you may not know
> how to radiate lightness for her.
I am sure I have seat finesse. I have been to many clinics too on it.
> Her teeth! When was she last floated, rasped, whatever you call it.
We call it rasped. Not too long ago. The vet keeps the records.
> Try a sleigh?
We live in the desert. No snow. :-(
> Hook up a dune buggy?
Yahoo! :-)
Jennifer
John Hasler
> My vote is shoot the horse, or the girl, or both. No losses either way.
I can't agree with that. The horse may be salvageable.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> collection.
I don't ride English and have never had a horse I needed to stretch. What are some
exercises to do with her.
I have heard of the "Long & Low" but don't kow how to teach it.
> About bits, do you have some local barns or friends with different
> bits that you can borrow and experiment with? Or perhaps just use a
> bosel for now.
Yes I tried about 20 bits in total over the years. All the same.
But even when she wears her bossal (hackamore) I get the same, nose twists and
chewing from her. It begins when I get on her back.
> I'm not sure, but didn't you say she was okay with somebody leading
> while you ride?
No. As soon as the legs touch her we have problems. In minutes of being riden & lead
she gets totally lathered and soon has a fit.
All in all she's actually better without being lead.
> If so, that would be the best way to desensitise her.
> Let the person lunge her with you riding. It will probably take
> several months, but that would be the best way to show her that rider
> does not equal spurs. It would also give you the opportunity to slowly
> introduce the leg and let her feel that it does not mean spurs.
Tried still already, nope.
Now I guess I could get someone else to ride her. (That will take a few months to
get some one that close to her back) But then I could linge her, she listens well to
me on the ground while being lunged. Who knows. Maybe.
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> which involves suppleness of the back.
How do you suggest this be done?
> Muscles are rarely involved in that problem - hip, stifle and hock are the
> usual culprits if a horse that's otherwise willing shows himself unable to lift
> the hind legs high.
Maybe, but I went to school for Fitness (in humanes). You can see the muscles
straining to be pushed up. They just can't go any further.
> Did you have a vet examn done when you bought her?
After the first rearing problem. A O K.
> Or because the horse has a back problem that is aggravated when she's asked to
> stand?
No vet has found anything.
> The tree doesn't. If you have an English-style tree you need to have it checked
> *every single time* a horse goes over on it or rolls on it. They don't just
> break (which is comparatively easy to find out if you know what you're doing),
> they also twist, which causes major back pain to the horse, but might be
> invisible to the rider.
Actually I do know how to check my saddles tree. So far so good.
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
> - Horse still rears, so she grabs reins and pulls the horse right on over
> backwards.
I had done quite a bit of ground work with her first thank you.
Besides, I didn't know she had any problems at first.
You can't let a horse beat you otherwise you lose their respect.
> - She runs for martingale, has husband hold horse while horse tries to rear,
> she grabs reins, pulls horse over sideways.
> - She puts a snaffle bit, mechanical hackamore, and martingale on all at
> once.
DeeDee reared and fell on me.
I put the martinegale on her after that so I could have more controll.
She already had a snafflebit in dumbass.
I never put the tiedown on her in the begining.
My husband held her to steady and calm her.
BTW I NEVER SAID I EVER USED A MEC HACK.
When I refere to using a hackamore I mean just a BOSSAL!
> - She ties the horse's head to the saddle, thinking it will make the neck
> more flexible.
It appears it is YOU who knows nothing about horses.
> Since she has very clearly demonstrated that advice is not wanted,
I never said I wanted advise, I wanted help. There IS a difference.
> I can only hope that the mare flips over on her, rendering her unable to ride
> for a very long time.
I can't believe the lack of humanity I am hearing here!?!
You are a really fucked up person to think/say such things!
I am REALLY glad YOU are NOT MY MOTHER!!
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
Ok.
> When a horse is jigging instead of providing a 1-2-3-4 walk, you have
> problems. The mare isn't focused on the rider, and the rider isn't in
> charge. This is something to discourage, not encourage. Jigging is caused
> by rider error, and if the bad habit the rider is teaching the horse isn't
> undone, it can escalate to a bolter or run-away type situation.
I firmly believe that she "jigs" because she is scared of my legs maybe having
spurs on them in her mind, and wants to run.
> Why are you galloping when you don't even have enough control for a 1-2-3-4
> walk? Or is this gallop similar to a semi-controlled run-away? If you ask
> for a Whoa, do you get a complete stop within 3 strides?
Yes she does stop on a dime! That is all she knows. I let her lope because I
know she enjoys it. I want her to know we can have fun together too.
Also I find that if we lope for a while she will sometimes stop jigging,
because she gets tired. Then for I while she will actually walk and we can get
some leg pressure and work on her.
> Rehab training occurs one step at a time. I think your training objectives
> for this mare should be something along the lines of stand calmly under
> saddle, walk calmly under saddle,
But THAT'S the problem. I don't know how to get her past the fear memory of the
spurs from 6 years of abuse from that guy.
> Whoa promptly and calmly, jog calmly, walk-jog-walk transitions calmly, etc.
> Recognize the process?
I do. And I know.
> You're starting from scratch, building a new training foundation since the
> old one obviously has massive holes in it.
Yup.
Jennifer
Warrior, Princess, Websurfer
Not for long in the begging, she'll start jigging on the stop.
Only after riding for about 2 hours will she stand quitely. That is so long as my
legs are not moving and barely touching her.
> Think happy thoughts and think of a rhythmical walk.
Cute. :-)
> Find out how to get her to relax - walking obviously isn't it,
Any ideas?
> and lots of bending exercises work?
Any ideas?
> Can you just chat to your husband while you're riding her, completely ignoring
> your horse?
Yes. No change from her.
Jennifer