Paul Valliere & USEF
Ruth Baltopoulos
stop the reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The
petition can be read at:
No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
Interesting, as I had just heard that a local trainer by the
name of David O'Linnick (sp?) had just shut down his
operation to go and work for Valliere.
For those of you who don't know who this guy is, here is
some info:
http://tinyurl.com/duku6
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
--
Ruth B
Ruth Baltopoulos
I suck. Bad link to the petition. It would actually be at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/
Mea culpa.
--
Ruth B
Joyleen Seymour
Whachyagonnado? (Shrug) If the hunter folks want the horse killers
reintstated, (and the number of students this guy has seems to say they
do) who are we to stop them? Peronally, I can't believe that anybody
would send their horse or their kid to this man, who not only killed
horses but was a rat to boot, but he seems to be making a good living.
--
writing: http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejoyleenseymour/page4.html
wka...@vic.com
<joyleen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>> I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to stop the
>> reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The petition can be read at:
>> No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
>>
>> Interesting, as I had just heard that a local trainer by the name of
>> David O'Linnick (sp?) had just shut down his operation to go and work
>> for Valliere.
>>
>> For those of you who don't know who this guy is, here is some info:
>> http://tinyurl.com/duku6
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>> --
>> Ruth B
>Whachyagonnado? (Shrug) If the hunter folks want the horse killers
>reintstated, (and the number of students this guy has seems to say they
>do) who are we to stop them? Peronally, I can't believe that anybody
>would send their horse or their kid to this man, who not only killed
>horses but was a rat to boot, but he seems to be making a good living.
We don't let convicted child molesters work in day care centers. If
he's making a good living doing whaever he's doing then let him
continue in it.
Bill Kambic
Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
Ruth Baltopoulos
> Joyleen Seymour wrote:
>>Whachyagonnado? (Shrug) If the hunter folks want the horse killers
>>reintstated, (and the number of students this guy has seems to say they
>>do) who are we to stop them? Peronally, I can't believe that anybody
>>would send their horse or their kid to this man, who not only killed
>>horses but was a rat to boot, but he seems to be making a good living.
> We don't let convicted child molesters work in day care centers. If
> he's making a good living doing whaever he's doing then let him
> continue in it.
Ummm, is this sarcasm? I guess I am thick as a brick, but I
am not following ya here, Bill :) Is this an analogy that
is meant to equate to "we don't let convicted horse killers
work in horse training situations"? Not sure where you are
going with this, can you clarify?
I guess I am not really sure what to think of this guy. I
know people that train with him and think he is phenomenal,
while agreeing that what he did was morally reprehensible.
Because he has a barn in this area, I have heard for years
that he coaches from beyond the grounds at shows, with a
trainer inside via walkie talkie or whatever.
--
Ruth B
Callen Molenda
news:k23rr11th7sth1cnm...@4ax.com...
I don't understand. If I use your analogy then a horse killer should not be
allowed to still be around horses. Am I confused?
Callen in VA
wka...@vic.com
<rud...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> We don't let convicted child molesters work in day care centers. If
>> he's making a good living doing whaever he's doing then let him
>> continue in it.
>
>Ummm, is this sarcasm? I guess I am thick as a brick, but I
>am not following ya here, Bill :) Is this an analogy that
>is meant to equate to "we don't let convicted horse killers
>work in horse training situations"? Not sure where you are
>going with this, can you clarify?
You got it! :-) No sacarsm at all; just a simple, and relevant,
analogy.
>I guess I am not really sure what to think of this guy. I
>know people that train with him and think he is phenomenal,
>while agreeing that what he did was morally reprehensible.
>Because he has a barn in this area, I have heard for years
>that he coaches from beyond the grounds at shows, with a
>trainer inside via walkie talkie or whatever.
There are lots of people in the world who are technically competant
and completely lacking in moral and/or ethical standards. The fact
that he cheats on his current restrictions (if I am understanding you
right) shows that the moral and/or ethical breach remains.
It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
Let him continue to do what he does. I'm sure that there are other
competant judges in the world.
wka...@vic.com
<callen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I don't understand. If I use your analogy then a horse killer should not be
>allowed to still be around horses. Am I confused?
It's not so much he's a horse killer. It's that he's a thief. And
probably a liar. At least he was when he did the deed. If he's
cheating on current restrictions (and Ruth seems to think he might be,
if I read her correctly) then he's unreformed and unrepentant. In
this matter, actions speak louder than words.
Callen Molenda
news:Sufvf.5231$M%4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> > I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to stop the
> > reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The petition can be read
at:
> > No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
> >
> > Interesting, as I had just heard that a local trainer by the name of
> > David O'Linnick (sp?) had just shut down his operation to go and work
> > for Valliere.
> >
> > For those of you who don't know who this guy is, here is some info:
> > http://tinyurl.com/duku6
> >
> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?
> > --
> > Ruth B
> Whachyagonnado? (Shrug) If the hunter folks want the horse killers
> reintstated, (and the number of students this guy has seems to say they
> do) who are we to stop them? Peronally, I can't believe that anybody
> would send their horse or their kid to this man, who not only killed
> horses but was a rat to boot, but he seems to be making a good living.
When I was a kid there was a horrible man who had KILLED THREE PEOPLE in
addition to killing and maiming God knows how many horses. Unfortunately,
his "techniques" in the jumper arena worked and his horses always won. You
know what that means on the show circuit.
2 of the people he killed were because of his affinity for sleeping with his
"students"; i.e., 18 year old girls. Their fathers/and or boyfriends went
after him and he was more ruthless than they. Unfortunately since these
were "crimes of passion" he did very little prison time for his crimes.
William Faulkner is rumored to have used him as the model for the heinous
character in "The Reivers".
I rode with this man's top rider many years after her jumping career was
over, and she was the most terrified rider I've ever been with. She
actually made ME nervous.
He bullied, abused and harassed girls and animals and to this day I am
sickened and ashamed of those who let him get away with it.
Callen in VA
Ruth Baltopoulos
> "Callen Molenda" wrote:
>>I don't understand. If I use your analogy then a horse killer should not be
>>allowed to still be around horses. Am I confused?
> It's not so much he's a horse killer. It's that he's a thief. And
> probably a liar. At least he was when he did the deed. If he's
> cheating on current restrictions (and Ruth seems to think he might be,
> if I read her correctly) then he's unreformed and unrepentant. In
> this matter, actions speak louder than words.
OK, so I think I gotcha know. You are saying that a
convicted horse killer should not be allowed to work with
horses, but if he is making a living at it, let him be? As
in don't make a fuss and let the USEF withdraw the ban so
that he can legitimately attend horse shows? I swear I'm
lost...
Just as a clarification, I have never seen PV training via
walkie talkie, phone, whatever, but I have heard it talked
about commonly and often (doesn't make it so). He runs a
successful training facility in Plainville, MA and one in
Florida. Big show barns with students that compete all over
the place. That much I do know for sure :)
--
Ruth B
Joyleen Seymour
wka...@vic.com wrote:
But Bill, what he's doing now is training and coaching, he just can't go
on the show grounds. He's doing it anyway.
Joyleen Seymour
wka...@vic.com wrote:
And a rat, let's not forget that. He flipped like a pancake and ratted
out his buddies, wore a wire. He's like Henry Hill. Lower than a
snake's belly. :-)
Anyway, I wouldn't send a kid to him, wouldn't send a horse to him.
There are things in life more important than winning.
Ben Turner
>William Faulkner is rumored to have used him as the model for the heinous
>character in "The Reivers".
When William Faulkner died in 1962 (from consequences of a fall from a
horse), the New York Times obituary included "Mr. Faulkner's writings
showed an obsession with murder, rape, incest, suicide, greed and
general depravity that did not exist anywhere but in the author's
mind." How very little it seems that obituary writer knew.
--
Best,
Ben Turner, Mare's Reach
CMNewell
<callen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
USEF can't keep him away from horses.
But they can keep him off the grounds of USEF sanctioned shows.
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"--Minsc
--The Chuck of Eq
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
CMNewell
>It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
>someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
I thought that was GBS.
wka...@vic.com
<joyleen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>But Bill, what he's doing now is training and coaching, he just can't go
>on the show grounds. He's doing it anyway.
Then he's cheating. Why reward it?
wka...@vic.com
wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:22:02 -0500, wka...@vic.com wrote:
>
>
>>It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
>>someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
>
>I thought that was GBS.
I thought it was Twain. Or maybe both were quoting a wit whose name
is lost to history! ;-)
Joyleen Seymour
Ben Turner
>On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:41:49 -0500, CMNewell wrote:
>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:22:02 -0500, Bill Kambic wrote:
>>>It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
>>>someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
>>I thought that was GBS.
>I thought it was Twain. Or maybe both were quoting a wit whose name
>is lost to history! ;-)
'Tis an oft disputed attribution. More frequently than Shaw, the
non-Twainsian credit is given to Sir Winston Churchill.
--
Best,
Ben Turner, Mare's Reach
"He has, more than any other man, the gift of compressing the
largest amount of words into the smallest amount of thought."
--Sir Winston Churchill [on Ramsay MacDonald]
John Hasler
> USEF can't keep him away from horses. But they can keep him off the
> grounds of USEF sanctioned shows.
In the old days, yes. Now, maybe. They have the Amateur Sports Act to
contend with.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
jo...@dhh.gt.org Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA
John Hasler
> But Bill, what he's doing now is training and coaching, he just can't go
> on the show grounds. He's doing it anyway.
Doing what anyway? Training and coaching, or going on show grounds? I get
the impression that doing the latter could get him hurt.
Bill Kambic writes:
> Then he's cheating. Why reward it?
Cheating how? He is not barred from training and coaching.
wka...@vic.com
<rud...@comcast.net> wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
>Just as a clarification, I have never seen PV training via
>walkie talkie, phone, whatever, but I have heard it talked
>about commonly and often (doesn't make it so). He runs a
>successful training facility in Plainville, MA and one in
>Florida. Big show barns with students that compete all over
>the place. That much I do know for sure :)
The leave him be.
wka...@vic.com
wrote:
> Joyleen Seymour writes:
>> But Bill, what he's doing now is training and coaching, he just can't go
>> on the show grounds. He's doing it anyway.
>
>Doing what anyway? Training and coaching, or going on show grounds? I get
>the impression that doing the latter could get him hurt.
>
>Bill Kambic writes:
>> Then he's cheating. Why reward it?
>
>Cheating how? He is not barred from training and coaching.
Go back and read what Ruth wrote.
Ruth Baltopoulos
> Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> <snipped for brevity>
>>Just as a clarification, I have never seen PV training via
>>walkie talkie, phone, whatever, but I have heard it talked
>>about commonly and often (doesn't make it so). He runs a
>>successful training facility in Plainville, MA and one in
>>Florida. Big show barns with students that compete all over
>>the place. That much I do know for sure :)
> The leave him be.
Bill, what the hell are you drinking tonight :)
--
Ruth B
wka...@vic.com
Just a glass of white wine with dinner! :-)
By "leave him be" I mean that literally. He's out officially. He's
cheating to have influence. Let it end there. There's not much that
can be done about it, anyway.
As an aside, a local Western trainer a few years back molested a 16
year old girl during a riding lesson (groped her in her blouse). This
guy is a crackerjack instructor and trainer. He's also on five years
probation and is a registered sex offender. He's also quite lucky to
be walking around (this IS the South; a local judge talked the girl's
father, a lawyer, out of killing him). He still has a lesson
clientele, I'm advised. No young girls, though. And that's a bad
thing in a discipline where 90% of the participants are young girls.
He gets left alone, too, so that he can comtemplate what might have
been.
Hunter
>
>As an aside, a local Western trainer a few years back molested a 16
>year old girl during a riding lesson (groped her in her blouse). This
>guy is a crackerjack instructor and trainer.
I met him at the old feed store in Lenoir City,... he was quite the
flirt. He called a few times too....
We never went out though
Hunter
--
http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"
J. B. Levin
wka...@vic.com wrote:
}It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
}someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
If that's the reference I think it is, wasn't it Winston Churchill? (Or
was he only responsible for the one about the ugly lady?)
/JBL
--
| Nets: lev...@gmail.com
| ARS : KD1ON/7
| POTS: (520)424-9075
| USPS: PO Box 478, Maricopa, AZ 85239
J. B. Levin
wka...@vic.com wrote:
}By "leave him be" I mean that literally. He's out officially. He's
}cheating to have influence. Let it end there. There's not much that
}can be done about it, anyway.
}
}As an aside, a local Western trainer a few years back molested a 16
}year old girl during a riding lesson (groped her in her blouse). This
}guy is a crackerjack instructor and trainer. He's also on five years
}probation and is a registered sex offender. He's also quite lucky to
}be walking around (this IS the South; a local judge talked the girl's
}father, a lawyer, out of killing him). He still has a lesson
}clientele, I'm advised. No young girls, though. And that's a bad
}thing in a discipline where 90% of the participants are young girls.
}He gets left alone, too, so that he can comtemplate what might have
}been.
As a further aside, we have a convicted murderer in Arizona who educated
himself in prison, then got a law degree and passed the bar exam after he
got out. He's been doing a lot of good things, too, apparently, but the
bar wouldn't let him in. It went to the state supreme court, who agreed:
he does not meet the standard (however low that may be) to be admitted to
the bar.
CMNewell
wrote:
>In <vm6rr1l8osg8d3io4...@4ax.com>,
> wka...@vic.com wrote:
>
>}It's like Mark Twain and the southern lady. Once we establish what
>}someone is, we are generally then just talking price.
>
>If that's the reference I think it is, wasn't it Winston Churchill? (Or
>was he only responsible for the one about the ugly lady?)
>
> /JBL
Here's an attribution to GBS.
(Near the bottom of the page.)
ako...@san.rr.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to
> stop the reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The
> petition can be read at:
> No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
>
I tried to respond from my husbands work computer but havent seen
it..sorry if this ends up a dupe.
This is an easy one for me. I like the ban. Even though I can totally
see how this business can corrupt the weak of character, I cant
understand how people can continue to work with Paul. Or Barney. Paul
was good, indeed, but he isnt the only good eq trainer in the world,
sheesh. So Barney wants to watch McLain show. Too bad so sad. So Paul
wants to coach on the grounds. Hey, tough beanies for you, bud.
Its an insular world, and horse people tend to protect and rally round
their own. But really. Paul does a clinic here every year. We dont go.
How do people do it.."Well, <insert childs name here> this guy
knowingly had a horse killed and collected the insurance money, but
your career is sooo improtant to me that I will still pay him to teach
you how to ride a course. Let this be a lesson to you!'. >;-P
And this hits close to home in general..Marian and Hank Hulick are the
girls' godparents.
Abby
J. B. Levin
CMNewell <mingl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
}On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:13:44 GMT, J. B. Levin <lev...@gmail.com>
}wrote:
}>If that's the reference I think it is, wasn't it Winston Churchill? (Or
}>was he only responsible for the one about the ugly lady?)
}>
}> /JBL
}
}Here's an attribution to GBS.
}(Near the bottom of the page.)
}
}http://www.elise.com/quotes/quotes/shawquotes.htm
A quick google search turns up a number of attributions to both GBS and
WC; I can believe either.
I know the ugly lady one was Churchill, though.
John Hasler
> If that's the reference I think it is, wasn't it Winston Churchill? (Or
> was he only responsible for the one about the ugly lady?)
I've always seen both attributed to Shaw, but witticisms have a tendency to
migrate to ever more famous authors.
ako...@san.rr.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to
> stop the reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The
> petition can be read at:
> No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
>
I got this petition in email a week or so ago. I signed it.
This hits close to home for me..Hank and Marian Hulick are the girls'
godparents.
Paul does a clinic here in SD. I dont go. I have to say I could not
support him. I do believe he was genuinely sorry. There but for the
grace of God go lots of people. I think the business can be too much
for people of weak character. Be that as it may, he is a cheat. There
are plenty of good people who stay with ethics around. Cant see
supporting the crooked ones. But its an insular world, people loved him
before he lost his bearings and they love him still.
But I think the USEF needs to keep the bans in place. Barney Ward wants
to go watch McLain and has snuck onto some grounds. Paul wants to
school his students in person. Too bad. There has to be some example
set for the younger set. I have no sympathy.
Abby
ako...@san.rr.com
wkam...@vic.com wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:47:27 GMT, Joyleen Seymour
> <joyleen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >But Bill, what he's doing now is training and coaching, he just can't go
> >on the show grounds. He's doing it anyway.
>
> Then he's cheating. Why reward it?
>
No, he isnt cheating. He was kicked out of the then AHSA, and banned
from competing or going onto any recognized show grounds. He wasnt
kicked out of the business, he can do whatever he wants in that regard.
He isnt allowed at recognized events. Yes, its lame that he can coach
from off site, but there isnt anything the USEF can do about that.
I just cant understand how people continued to work with him. What
could I say to my daughter..'well, Mr. Valliere had a horse killed for
the insurance money..but he is *such* a good trainer and your career is
so important to me that I want him to work with you anyway."
Good Lord.
Abby
ako...@san.rr.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to
> stop the reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The
> petition can be read at:
> No Reinstatement for USEF Horse Killers - valliere
>
This hits close to home for me..Marian and Hank Hulick are my
daughters' godparents.
I do not want Paul Valliere reinstated. I was glad when Barney Ward's
ban was enforced; he wanted to watch McLain compete. Too bad, so sad,
should have thought of that. Paul does a clinic here in SD and I wont
go. I really cant believe people still go to him. But the horse
industry is extremely insular, and Paul was good at what he did. But so
are other people who didnt kill horses for the insurance money.
I do believe that Paul Valliere was genuinely sorry. I also can see how
people of weak character can get so caught up in the business that they
lose all sense. But I also think punishment should mean something.
I signed the petition; got it in email about 10 days ago.
Abby
Joyleen Seymour
wka...@vic.com wrote:
A riding instructor up here (okay, in Massachusetts) got fired for
sleeping with his charges while at away shows. He was the head of the
riding program for a very prestigious girls school. I don't recall him
gettting any jail time, and he is now running a private stable, with
some success.
Back in the 80s, a lawyer who was a known predator bought a horse farm
and started sleeping with a 16 year old girl who happened to be a
student there. Her mother condoned it, allowed the kid to move in with
this man, and when he went bankrupt and lost the farm he moved in with
her (the mother.) This man is still active in this state in his
discipline, and never got any kind of punishment for the lives he
ruined. (This girl was not the first.) He was also starving horses, a
pretty lousy thing to do itself.
I guess there are plenty of cases to be cited of male riding instructors
going after their female students and getting away with it.
wka...@vic.com
<ako...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>He isnt allowed at recognized events. Yes, its lame that he can coach
>from off site, but there isnt anything the USEF can do about that.
No, but THAT'S the cheating part, showing a lack of moral and ethical
sense.
Ruth Baltopoulos
> Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>>I just received a forward on a fox hunting list of a push to
>>stop the reinstatement of Paul Valliere to the USEF. The
>>petition can be read at:
> I got this petition in email a week or so ago. I signed it.
> This hits close to home for me..Hank and Marian Hulick are the girls'
> godparents.
I am sorry, but who are Hank and Marian Hulick? (I thought
you might have close knowledge of Valliere and others that
were involved in this scandal)
> Paul does a clinic here in SD. I dont go. I have to say I could not
> support him. I do believe he was genuinely sorry. There but for the
> grace of God go lots of people. I think the business can be too much
> for people of weak character. Be that as it may, he is a cheat. There
> are plenty of good people who stay with ethics around. Cant see
> supporting the crooked ones. But its an insular world, people loved him
> before he lost his bearings and they love him still.
Yes, it is interesting to hear a few of the people that I
know well rationalize why they use Paul. No judgments here;
I simply find it a compelling glimpse into human nature
from a purely observational standpoint.
> But I think the USEF needs to keep the bans in place. Barney Ward wants
> to go watch McLain and has snuck onto some grounds. Paul wants to
> school his students in person. Too bad. There has to be some example
> set for the younger set. I have no sympathy.
I agree with you.
--
Ruth B
Ben Turner
>On 5 Jan 2006 16:03:18 -0800, Abby wrote:
>>No, he isnt cheating. . . .
>>He isnt allowed at recognized events. Yes, its lame that he can coach
>>from off site, but there isnt anything the USEF can do about that.
>No, but THAT'S the cheating part, showing a lack of moral and ethical
>sense.
In the usage of "cheating" as violating the rules, perhaps Mr. Valliere
isn't cheating per se, although that speaks to the weakness of the
USEF system of controls.
In then senses of escaping the penalties or deceiving by trickery,
the actions described in this thread seem to fall under cheating.
Could anyone consider such actions to reflect respect for the very
organization in which he seeks reinstatement?
Ruth Baltopoulos
> Bill Kambic wrote:
>> Abby wrote:
>>>No, he isnt cheating. . . .
>>>He isnt allowed at recognized events. Yes, its lame that he can coach
>>>from off site, but there isnt anything the USEF can do about that.
>>No, but THAT'S the cheating part, showing a lack of moral and ethical
>>sense.
> In the usage of "cheating" as violating the rules, perhaps Mr. Valliere
> isn't cheating per se, although that speaks to the weakness of the
> USEF system of controls.
I agree that he isn't violating the sanction, as in entering
the show grounds, but skirting them as closely as possible.
Clearly, the intent of the ban is to disallow his
involvement of their events, which it unfortunately does not
or cannot do, as it seemingly is not within their powers or
control.
> In then senses of escaping the penalties or deceiving by trickery,
> the actions described in this thread seem to fall under cheating.
Yes, I would agree with that. He is remaining involved in
something that he has been banned from by finding methods
that allow him to conduct his business during these shows
without physically being on the grounds. He is, from what I
understand, as close by as he can be, however.
> Could anyone consider such actions to reflect respect for the very
> organization in which he seeks reinstatement?
That is where I have to snort at the guy, as he is saying
that he hoped people would have moved past what happened,
that he is genuinely remorseful and has tried to make
reparation by being charitable, blah blah blah. I don't see
any remorse or respect for USEF in how he has been
conducting himself for the past ten years. I am sure
someone will tell me I am wrong, though :)
--
Ruth B
Lynn Tucker
"Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:P9ednVc1XeqgCCDe...@comcast.com...
> wka...@vic.com wrote:
>
>
> I guess I am not really sure what to think of this guy. I
> know people that train with him and think he is phenomenal,
> while agreeing that what he did was morally reprehensible.
> Because he has a barn in this area, I have heard for years
> that he coaches from beyond the grounds at shows, with a
> trainer inside via walkie talkie or whatever.
> --
> Ruth B
That should get him another 10 years suspension and a substantial fine.
Obviously he still doesn't care about the law or rules.
I am sorry, but anyone that can have that kind of thing done to an animal
has a darn rotten core and I don't believe any amount of fund raising or
being a goodie two shoes is going to change that core.
...Lynn
CMNewell
<rud...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I am sorry, but who are Hank and Marian Hulick? (I thought
>you might have close knowledge of Valliere and others that
>were involved in this scandal)
Marion was George Lindemann's barn manager. She set up the
"hit"--showed Tommy Burns which stall the horse was in, how to get in
through the back gate at Cellular Farm, and took the barn help off the
property to dinner that night.
Prior to that, she and Hank ran Saddle River, a fairly well known (at
least in NE) operation in Sterling, MA.
Ironically, Hank is the founder of "Horsewatch".
John Hasler
> In the usage of "cheating" as violating the rules, perhaps Mr. Valliere
> isn't cheating per se, although that speaks to the weakness of the USEF
> system of controls.
The USEF has no authority over what he does off the grounds of their shows.
> Could anyone consider such actions to reflect respect for the very
> organization in which he seeks reinstatement?
If it wasn't for Federal law he would stand absolutely no chance of ever
being reinstated.
John Hasler
> I am sorry, but anyone that can have that kind of thing done to an
Please correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard he had not been convicted
of any sort off animal abuse.
Ben Turner
>Lynn Tucker writes:
>> I am sorry, but anyone that can have that kind of thing done to an
>> animal...
>Please correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard he had not been convicted
>of any sort off animal abuse.
The petition in question quotes an AHSA 1996 resolution as follows:
"On March 12, 1996, a meeting of the Hearings Committee of the
American Horse Shows Association (predecessor in interest to USEF)
was held and the following resolution was adopted:
Mr. Paul Valliere, of North Smithfield, RI, violated Rule III,
Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 702(a), (d), and (f) of this
association, in that he was convicted of having participated in a
plan or conspiracy to commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse
and the conduct underlying his conviction is deemed improper,
unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or
prejudicial to the best interests of the Association."
Lisa W
>>Could anyone consider such actions to reflect respect for the very
>>organization in which he seeks reinstatement?
>
>
> If it wasn't for Federal law he would stand absolutely no chance of ever
> being reinstated.
Could you explain what you mean here? Since he (obviously) can make a
living without being allowed at the governed events, what is the Fed
interest in this??
LisaW
--
If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world
peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be!
Until the looting started
Ruth Baltopoulos
> John Hasler wrote:
>>Lynn Tucker writes:
Here is a quote from an article in the Palm Beach Daily News
from 2004:
<<begin quote>> In 1994, Valliere admitted in federal court
in Chicago that he paid to have his show horse, Roseau
Platiere, electrocuted five years earlier in order to
collect the $75,000 in insurance money. In 1993, a federal
grand jury indicted 23 people in related cases of killing
expensive show horses for insurance money. Most of them
pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial, including
cellular phone heir George Lindemann Jr., formerly of Palm
Beach, and show jumper Barney Ward, father of three-time AGA
Rider of the Year McLain Ward.
Valliere said Tuesday he hasn't discussed the case in 10
years and is "very remorseful" for his part. Valliere said
he has done a lot of charity work and he thought people
would be more forgiving.
"I've helped a lot of different animal charities," Valliere
said. "I donated all of my lesson money to the animals left
behind after 9/11. I've donated a lot to the ASPCA and to
rescuing horses in distress. A lot of people just don't know
what I've done. Mason was kind enough to ask me to judge.
There were only a handful of people [dissenting] — enough to
stir up a problem. Some people just won't let go."
Before the scandal, Valliere was one of the nation's top
equitation instructors. He coached countless students to
wins in the Medal and Maclay classes. Valliere cooperated
with the federal government in its investigation into the
horse killings, wearing a wire to gather evidence for
prosecutors on his one-time friend, Barney Ward. Valliere,
of Rhode Island, was sentenced to four years probation.
Barney Ward and Lindemann both served prison time.
In April 1996, Valliere was banned for 10 years from
participating in sanctioned events by the governing body of
equestrian events in the United States, U.S. Equestrian
Federation. He is unable to be on the grounds of any horse
show sanctioned by the group. >> end quote <<
I think it ironic that he states "I donated all of my lesson
money to the animals left behind after 9/11" in light of a
lengthy discussion that I read on the Chronicle of the Horse
surrounding an ad that Valliere placed which included, in
tiny print, a promise to dedicate 50% of lesson fees to the
referenced cause.
Dunno, but I tend to think once a slimeball, always a
slimeball. He certainly isn't suffering financially, as I
hear tell from someone currently lessoning with him that he
commands approx $150 (or something staggering) per hour lesson.
Also, as I mentioned previously, he was banned from
participating in sanctioned events, but the only piece of
that which seemingly can be enforced is his banning his
presence from the property where the shows are being held.
For all intents and purposes, he has been involved in every
aspect excepting that, which to me does not show any respect
for the decision, or remorse for his involvement. Donating
money is the easy part, IMO...
--
Ruth B
ako...@san.rr.com
John Hasler wrote:
> Lynn Tucker writes:
> > I am sorry, but anyone that can have that kind of thing done to an
> > animal...
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard he had not been convicted
> of any sort off animal abuse.
> --
Legally, he was convicted of wire fraud. There were no laws on the
books that prohibited killing horses.
In the AHSA, he was convicted of cruelty et al.
Abby
John Hasler
> Please correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard he had not been convicted
> of any sort off animal abuse.
Ben Turner quotes:
> ...he was convicted of having participated in a plan or conspiracy to
> commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse...
IIRC he was convicted of insurance fraud but the state dropped the animal
abuse charges since the Feds were going to deal with him. The lack of an
animal abuse conviction may put the USEF on shaky legal ground.
Lisa W
> I wrote:
>
>>Please correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard he had not been convicted
>>of any sort off animal abuse.
>
>
> Ben Turner quotes:
>
>>...he was convicted of having participated in a plan or conspiracy to
>>commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse...
>
>
> IIRC he was convicted of insurance fraud but the state dropped the animal
> abuse charges since the Feds were going to deal with him. The lack of an
> animal abuse conviction may put the USEF on shaky legal ground.
Hmmm -- I would think the USEF would have something on their books like
most organizations that smack usually of "you doing something that could
make us look bad or harm our reputations" will get you banned.
John Hasler
> If it wasn't for Federal law he would stand absolutely no chance of ever
> being reinstated.
LisaW writes:
> Could you explain what you mean here? Since he (obviously) can make a
> living without being allowed at the governed events, what is the Fed
> interest in this??
Before 1978 the AHSA had complete authority over its own affairs as a
private organization: a resolution by the board permanently banning him
would have been final and unappealable. However, in 1978 Congress enacted
the Amateur Sports Act bringing "National Governing Bodies" such as the
AHSA (currently the USEF) under Federal regulation. The USEF may have to
prove to a Federal judge that they are justified in continuing to ban him.
That may be difficult in the absence of an animal cruelty conviction.
abby kogler
"Joyleen Seymour" <joyleen...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Catvf.2914$ZA2...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> A riding instructor up here (okay, in Massachusetts) got fired for
> sleeping with his charges while at away shows. He was the head of the
> riding program for a very prestigious girls school. I don't recall him
> gettting any jail time, and he is now running a private stable, with some
> success.
>
Mr. Manning, Come On Down! Lets not forget that one wasnt enough, we needed
two or three at once!
Did I mention the illustrious Mr. M was best man at my wedding to my
daughters's dad?
SBS and the families did not press charges. They should have. Lets just say
it werent the first time. Drugs were involved as well.
He is the father of daughters, biological and adopted. Go figure.
They bought a farm near where they live (where I uswed to live) and named it
Biscuit Hill.
Again, I cannot fathom how people continue to support people like this. I am
deeply grateful that this pack is far behind me...!
> Back in the 80s, a lawyer who was a known predator bought a horse farm and
> started sleeping with a 16 year old girl who happened to be a student
> there. Her mother condoned it, allowed the kid to move in with this man,
> and when he went bankrupt and lost the farm he moved in with her (the
> mother.) This man is still active in this state in his discipline, and
> never got any kind of punishment for the lives he ruined. (This girl was
> not the first.) He was also starving horses, a pretty lousy thing to do
> itself.
>
> I guess there are plenty of cases to be cited of male riding instructors
> going after their female students and getting away with it.
If I had a dollar for every time I was groped/propositioned/kissed/grabbed
from 13 till whenever by trainers, college professors, bosses, husbands of
friends, etc etc I could retire. Its pretty darn common, sad to say.
Abby
John Hasler
> Hmmm -- I would think the USEF would have something on their books like
> most organizations that smack usually of "you doing something that could
> make us look bad or harm our reputations" will get you banned.
What they may have in their rules and what a Federal judge might let them
enforce are two different things.
jsaranac
"abby kogler" <ako...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:prBvf.12930$hI1....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
Abby, m'dear, you seem to know a bunch of the most notorious leches and
abusers in the equine world. If you don't have a book in the works, that
is a sad thing : ).
Jane
ako...@san.rr.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
> I am sorry, but who are Hank and Marian Hulick? (I thought
> you might have close knowledge of Valliere and others that
> were involved in this scandal)
>
>
Yeppers!
(answered this already but here we go again..)
Marian was trainer for George Lindemann Jr..son of Cellular phones, as
if he needed the 250,000 or whatever it was that Charisma was insured
for.
I have to say I do believe that Marian took the fall for George. I know
she confessed. I really dont know if she did it or was set up and then
caved to try avoid jail time. Her son James was dying, it was all sad
and terrible. But I also know alot of people hated her and were more
than happy to 'get' her. I always thought she was protecting George as
best she could.
>
> Yes, it is interesting to hear a few of the people that I
> know well rationalize why they use Paul. No judgments here;
> I simply find it a compelling glimpse into human nature
> from a purely observational standpoint.
>
Compelling, and very sad. Nothing stands for anything, it sometimes
seems.
Abby
abby kogler
"jsaranac" <jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g9Fvf.53$wk5...@news02.roc.ny...
>
>
> Abby, m'dear, you seem to know a bunch of the most notorious leches and
> abusers in the equine world. If you don't have a book in the works, that
> is a sad thing : ).
>
Yes, well, when youre a mover and shaker ... <barf> just kidding. Yes, I do
know some of the Shining Lights of the Industry! Ack.
No, no book! Truth is stranger than fiction, as they say!
The h/j world is pretty insular and incestuous, especially at the higher
levels. You cant be around it for too long without meeting the snakes.
My kids dad worked at SBS while at UMASS and after. He and the Divine Mr. M
were best friends. Hence the best man thing. Kids Dad worked for Hank when I
met him. Hence the connections.
Abby
ako...@san.rr.com
jsaranac wrote:
>
> Abby, m'dear, you seem to know a bunch of the most notorious leches and
> abusers in the equine world. If you don't have a book in the works, that
> is a sad thing : ).
>
>;-/
Too true, Jane! Too true. Let it not be said that I do not know the
machinations of The Not So Longer In Crowd. Ack.
And a sad and miserable lot they were, indeed.
At a certain level, the hunter/jumper industry is really small. When I
worked for Hap I went indoors etc and it was at Harrisburg that I met
the then future kids dad. He was working for Hank and doing stable
management etc. He had worked at Stoneleigh while a student at UMASS,
and he and the divine Mr. M were best friends. Hence the best man
thing.
No, no book in the works. Truth is stranger than fiction, after all!
>;-> Nobody would believe any of it, anyway!
Abby
ako...@san.rr.com
Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>
> I am sorry, but who are Hank and Marian Hulick? (I thought
> you might have close knowledge of Valliere and others that
> were involved in this scandal)
>
Love how now I have *three* posts on this topic. Gawd. Dang Google.
Marian was one of the first convictees, along with Barney. She was
trainer for George Lindemann, and it was his hunter Charisma that was
supposedly executed. It killed me..George Lindemann jr was the son of
Mr. Cellular Phone, George Lindemann. More money than God. He certainly
didnt need the insurance money.
George did not get arrested. In my book, he was the guilty one. I
honestly believe that Marian was set up to take the fall. A lot of
people hated her.
> Yes, it is interesting to hear a few of the people that I
> know well rationalize why they use Paul. No judgments here;
> I simply find it a compelling glimpse into human nature
> from a purely observational standpoint.
>
Compelling, and deeply troubling. I just cant get it. Even if he held
the magic key, how can you justify it.
I guess the horse industry is no different than others..who was the
basketball player..Leonard Strewell? Sprewell? or something like that?
who choked his coach..! but was allowed to play after a wrist slap.
We've all seen the 'bad boy' be allowed to get away with murder.
Literally, as in the cases of Robert Blake and OJ Simpson.
Abby
ako...@san.rr.com
Ben Turner wrote:
>
> In the usage of "cheating" as violating the rules, perhaps Mr. Valliere
> isn't cheating per se, although that speaks to the weakness of the
> USEF system of controls.
>
Yes. There was so much discussion about what could be done..but
legally, this was about it. There were lawyers for the defendants who
even fought this..saying the AHSA had no legal right to prohibit
participation. I was glad they even got *that*.
> In then senses of escaping the penalties or deceiving by trickery,
> the actions described in this thread seem to fall under cheating.
>
But to me this is where greater community is at fault. Trainers
continued to buy and sell horses to him, to ask him to work with their
juniors, etc. I know that a strong sense of 'there but for the grace of
God go I' prevailed with a lot of these people. And so they supported
him.
> Could anyone consider such actions to reflect respect for the very
> organization in which he seeks reinstatement?
>
A rhetorical question, eh.
Abby
Hunter
<ako...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>.George Lindemann jr was the son of
>Mr. Cellular Phone, George Lindemann. More money than God. He certainly
>didnt need the insurance money.
I heard that he bought the horse for tons of money and flat couldn't
ride it. I forget details, maybe too much horse? Not all horses and
riders click as you know.
He had offers to sell it, but didn't want to because it would
embarrass him (theory) if someone bought him and started winning on
him.
So, he had him killed to get rid of him.
Hunter
--
http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"
jsaranac
>
> "jsaranac" <jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:g9Fvf.53$wk5...@news02.roc.ny...
>>
>>
>> Abby, m'dear, you seem to know a bunch of the most notorious leches and
>> abusers in the equine world. If you don't have a book in the works,
>> that is a sad thing : ).
>>
>
> Yes, well, when youre a mover and shaker ... <barf> just kidding. Yes, I
> do know some of the Shining Lights of the Industry! Ack.
>
> No, no book! Truth is stranger than fiction, as they say!
Yes, for sure : )
>
> The h/j world is pretty insular and incestuous, especially at the higher
> levels. You cant be around it for too long without meeting the snakes.
That seems to be the case with many specialized sports and professions.
>
> My kids dad worked at SBS while at UMASS and after. He and the Divine Mr.
> M were best friends. Hence the best man thing. Kids Dad worked for Hank
> when I met him. Hence the connections.
I still think the book would be a seller : ). You and Joyleen can
collaborate if you don't want to write it alone... use it for a sizzling
fiction with sex and intrigue and a horse or human murder in the H/J
world... there you go, bestseller list! Since truth IS stranger than
fiction, thinly disguised biographical fiction can be a big sell : ).
J.
CMNewell
>Marian was one of the first convictees, along with Barney. She was
>trainer for George Lindemann, and it was his hunter Charisma that was
>supposedly executed. It killed me..George Lindemann jr was the son of
>Mr. Cellular Phone, George Lindemann. More money than God. He certainly
>didnt need the insurance money.
>
>George did not get arrested.
Yes he did.
Tried and convicted and lost on appeal.
ako...@san.rr.com
ako...@san.rr.com
Yes, youre right..remembered that after this post. He had jail time as
did Marian.
Thanks.
Abby