Expert opinons on Monty Roberts training methods & interpretation of horse behavior
Rosie
training demos, here are some very revealing expert opinions on the
subject. http://www.mainehorse.com/cgi-bin/boards/mainehorse.pl?=56540
Hayward
Barb
Rosie
Barbara Schoning, an animal behaviorist from Hamburg, Germany, also
amoung them is another behaviorist from Aptos, Calif. Dr. Evelyn
Hanggi. There must be at least, if not more than 6 to 8 opinions there
blowing holes into Monty Roberts methods. They are followed by the
messages on the message board.
Rosie
JC Dill
No matter where you are on the mainehorse discussion board site, the
url reads as above. So the URL doesn't point to the exact page, just
to the discussion board.
The message you refer to seems to be this one:
<quote>
what do you think of this article - agree, disagre
Posted By: Estelle
Date: Friday, 7 November 2003, at 12:00 p.m.
Warning...this is long....this is a cross post from another
forum...not saying I agree or disagree, just wondering what other
thought...
This article was posted on the White Horse Equine Ethology Project
mailing list. It is a translation of something from Cavallo magazine.
It's about Monty Robert's join-up concept. In the article various
horse professionals comment on it. Here is the article. It didn't
paste well, sorry about that.
((Introduction))
When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips
American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of
his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse.
Robert’s interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of
respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of
pillars of Roberts’ allegedly non-violent
Join-up method. How do equine ethologists and behavioural
scientists interpret the chewing
and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join
up really?
CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are
some excerpts of their answers:
Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg,
Germany.
>From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the
head can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend – similar to
the suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a
social behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during
conflicts. Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not
only restrains the adversary’s aggression but
also calms and relaxes the chewing one, in the sense of a so
called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it:
it feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a
behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the
threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with the
options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that
Monty Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from
the horse’s point of view) does an unknown person put on massive
pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding
of the horse, is at stake? Generally this means double stress which in
my opinion brings it to the limits as regards animal welfare.
I don’t think humans should only be very gentle. Pressure is
necessary every now and then during the training – but it has to be
reasonable, graded and above all comprehensible for the horse. Then it
won’t suffer stress as it
learns how it can resolve a certain problem.
Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen –
unless gentle and non-violent is defined as “the absence of direct
corporal
punishment/manipulation”. To me psychological violence is also
relevant.
Dr. Sue McDonnell holds a PhD in psychology and physiology and is
Head of the Equine Behaviour Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is one of the leading experts for Equine Behaviour in the USA.
Most behaviourists have concerns regards the naturalness of these
natural horsemanship methods. Many horse owners who have been exposed
to these methods contact our Institute subsequently for help. This
indicates that
they often encounter complications or even failure. Join up is a
weird and ever growing changing combination of procedures that has
very few if any practical applications beyond the “show”. Same results
can be achieved in much simpler ways, though not as entertaining
perhaps.
Now in the US it seems that Monty is going out, I haven’t heard
much lately about Shy Boy or any of his materials. The methods people
have learned in
join up type clinics can be fairly rough and border on inhumane
and can cause psychological wrecks long-term.
Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the
Institute of Biomedical
& Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is “licking
and chewing”. This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release.
The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee –
increase in circulating adrenaline – dry mouth – licking. This means a
horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it
surely cannot mean “I’m a herbivore, and if I’m eating I can’t be
afraid of you” – the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up.
I’ve tried „join up“ with three horses with whom I already had a
trusting relationship. One joined up “classically” and followed me
around meekly. The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the
procedure, one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left
wondering frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that
the driving away had a
detrimental effect on the trust that I already had built up. It is
not a technique that I would consider using myself, or recommending to
other people.
Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book
"Inside your horse's mind – A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human
Prejudice".
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses.
I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are
anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some
cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates
the need for caution when
attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial
expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty
Robert’s pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking
and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up
is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship
methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations
of free-ranging
horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The
result is that the training methods adopted are based on very
simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.
Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine
Behaviourist and Therapist. In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for
Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management
(BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in
Vancouver/Washington.
In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first
their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off
their stress,
they often will lick and chew – this is however more a sign of
relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when
they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating,
pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way
for the horse to release some of the built up stress.
I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the “join
up” techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma.
The video
made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM
was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse
demonstrated every level of “high stress indicator”.
Good horse ethologists or trainers take into account the horse’s
temperament and level of stress and then design the most appropriate
method to help the horse learn with the least amount of stress and
fear. Patience, kindness and
being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a human
educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out as a
better way to “break” horses, and has just turned into just another
way to control horses using
techniques they do not all understand.
Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse
Clinic Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany
I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen
training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status
horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine
behaviour. But while
under natural conditions the lower status horse is able to evade
the aggressions of the higher status animal and may signal its
submissiveness,
an evasion is impossible within the round pen.
In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often
can be
observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at the
mercy of the trainer, which is also called ”learned helplessness”.
This leads to
quick submission.
How far such a procedure, which surely doesn’t correspond with the
specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not, depends
definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.
Andy Beck from the "White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project" in
Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods on
Thoroughbreds and Arabs.
The drive away in which the horse is put into ‘flight’ is
potentially very
frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic and
the potential for “learned helplessness”. While this may create an
appearance of “control” it has also been shown to impede future
learning. There is also
the risk of producing abreaction in response to repressed emotion
(fear, isolation). Horses that have already been well socialised to
people become
extremely confused by being driven away. The horse has no idea why
it is
harried and is most likely to experience the method as
unpredictable aggression – the last thing a good trainer wants a horse
to experience. One of the most basic tenets of good horse management
is that the handler is
able to control their behaviour so that they do not trigger the
response of blind flight as a predator would do.
Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and
Physiologist at the
College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University, Ithaca,
NY, USA
I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment – jerking on the
nose rope
and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn’t call it punishment,
but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse. Very aggressive
horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every horse owner, as
some simply exhaust
the horse. To drive the horse away is just a form of negative
reinforcement – doing something unpleasant until the horse does what
you want. That is not too different from kicking the horse until he
trots.
I don’t think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour
and I don’t know how often horses are permanently cured of their
problem if Roberts
isn’t there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.
Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School
of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh
In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method
especially as
this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used
for
training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in
isolation and in
an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques
such as
those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the
effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable
dictator and
the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the
horse shows
licking and chewing – all signs of stress.
Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the
Canadian University of Prince Edward Island. She has published many
books and
articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare.
I have never liked the „predator – prey“ application to horse
training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and
reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the
herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where
it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be
continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee. The
round pen, notes veterinarian Robert Miller of Thousand Oaks,
California, inhibits the horse’s natural flight response. The free
horse flees a predator in a straight line. Regards the „chewing and
licking“ it has not been clear to me whether Monty Roberts is
referring to the grooved “suckling” tongue or the nervous attack on,
for example, hay in a trailer when a horse is under stress.
Dr. Willa Bohnet, Biologist and Expert for Equine Behaviour at the
Center for Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover;
Germany
To do a join up with an aggressive horse in a closed round pen is
highly dangerous. The method on its own is not suitable for the
behavioural therapy of a problem horse. For such a therapy it is
necessary to combine, depending
on the diagnosis, various methods (for example conditioning,
systematic desensitization and anti-conditioning in cases of fear and
phobias). Under
certain circumstances Join up may be suitable to establish the
relationship as regards dominance between the trainer and the horse as
a basis for
further training. Horses that are generally ready to accept the
human being
of higher status and to work with him, would be completely
confused if they were chased away by the trainer without knowing how
they had triggered this behaviour. I once attended a Join up
demonstration by a book writing trainer
during which he wondered why the mare he was working with would
only follow him a few steps. What did the good man do wrong? Every few
steps he looked over his shoulder to control if the mare was following
him. Every time the
mare turned around and ran away. Why? In the horse’s language
looking over the shoulder right at someone is a threatening gesture,
to which the mare responded correctly. If Monty Roberts really refers
to predatorial behaviour he wouldn’t have understood the background of
his own method. A threat by an attacker causes fear and the flight
response. If the horse unable to flee, panic arises. The best learning
result, what a good educator aims at, is achieved in a relaxed
atmosphere. If Join up is practised gently and not in a way that the
horse stops running at some stage being sweaty all over and completely
exhausted, then it can be used for some horses and in certain
therapeutic approaches. But for heaven’s sake it is not a method
suitable for everybody. Due to Monty Roberts public demonstrations
people get the impression that you only need to chase around your
horse properly and it’ll be as meek as a little lamb after max 30
minutes and all problems will be resolved. Fallacy!
Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine
Research Foundation in Aptos, California.
Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same.
Proper use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful
as what you see
with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses a
buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of non-violence.
Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.
Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington from the Eco Research & Education
Centre in Devon, UK, is the Grande dame of Animal Behaviour Research
and she founded in 1959 the Research Stud Druimghiga.
It is awful that Monty Roberts refers to the behaviour of a
predator. I have seen some shocking results of this. It is madness to
frighten a frightened horse.
This daft idea of “dominance” comes from the male competitive
cultural society in which we all live. The fact of the matter is that
the equine
societies do not need to be based on dominance or competition,
their food etc is either available for every one or no one, only at
sexual times there is need for competition between males, and even
that rarely occurs in the wild, as the mares rather like their own
stallion and are not prepared to put up with intruders.
Dear old Monty does not seem to understand learning theory if he
rejects totally feeding as a reward. There needs to be some positive
reinforcer to make the horse learn. If Roberts only works with
negative reinforcement –
that means stopping to chase the horse around as a reward, this
does not work as well as behaviourists know already for quite some
time.
Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour
in Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied
Ethology. He
trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and is
completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and its
consequences for training.
It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other
behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear
responses
that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a round
pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse’s memory – the horse
associates
fear responses with the perception of humans. The trouble is,
these associations are not always evident immediately, they come back
to “haunt”
the relationship at a later point when stress levels are raised.
All sorts of chasing horses should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we
avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when
the horse is
fearful.
END
</quote>
jc
Petra Ruettiger
JC quotes
>This article was posted on the White Horse Equine Ethology Project
>mailing list. It is a translation of something from Cavallo magazine.
>It's about Monty Robert's join-up concept.
Oh dear.... Now I am not a fan of MR but Cavallo Magazine did embrace the whole
MR concept fully, used him in every issue, kept praising him sky-high, then
fell out with him big time and now says the opposite....
Petra
Joe
"Petra Ruettiger" <petrain...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031117024617...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Every famous trainer has a long list of adherants and detractors. What
people need to do, is lose the whole concept of "Guru-ship." Thinking they
are going to become horse trainers by reading books, or watching videos or
visiting web pages. Thinking that the same thing is going to work with every
horse. Horses are as individual as people, and you need to study them to
figure out what they will respond to. You do that over a lot of time, and
by studying a lot of horses. There are methods that seem cruel, but aren't.
There are methods that seem gentle but are cruel. I am automatically
suspicious of these guys that are on a (unbroke)horse's back 20 minutes
after meeting it. There's a lot left out of the horse's education, and the
persons'. It may look gentler than the old bronc stompers, but it can't be.
If you stand at someone's elbow that has good success with horses, you'll
see a hell of a lot that doesn't get into the books. You can't put the look
in a horse's eyes in a book, nor the look in a good trainer's eyes. That's
where it's done.
Albert
horseman second; and that he stole his act from many (Hunt, Dorrance,
etc.) rather than coming up with it himself) but my opinion of the
"Join Up" is that it's an OK way to work with a young/raw horse (but
not any big deal). What on earth do these "horse behavioralistst" do
to work with a horse? If sending a horse around the round pen is too
traumatic I would be very interested to see what on earth you can do
with a horsie that would be acceptable to them.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<usenet-s...@vo.cnchost.com> wrote:
snip
> Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the
>Institute of Biomedical
> & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
*Our* Francis?
snip
snip
> Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the
>Canadian University of Prince Edward Island. She has published many
>books and
> articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare.
>
> I have never liked the „predator – prey“ application to horse
>training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and
>reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the
>herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where
>it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be
>continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee.
Yay!
At *last* someone articulates what has been one of MY big issues with
so much of this natural horsemanship stuff...the overemphasis on
predator/prey visualizations.
jrw
J. Z. M.
Gads, Gee Louise! I picked the very same things to *comment on* in my mind.
You getting to be a mind reader, Joyce?
I also find the Monty way a great big overkill. It tries to take the horse
down to a totally mindless prey victim and gives it no recourse. If it does
have recourse it is then branded "untrainable" or worse a "rouge horse";
neither is true. Many of the horses unable to relent to the mindless round
pen are alpha horses who could be trained by gentle and humane methods
without all the stress involved to make one "a zombie" to obey man. MHO
Aside to all this, Monty has announced all his proceeds are now to be given
to charity. This was noted at the Equine Affaire last week. I find that
somehow more acceptable than his training methods, but then again, charity
begins at home much of the time. :)
Jody
Rosie
pen, & if you have a good knowledge base of horsemanship, you would
see exactly what is very wrong with Monty Roberts "Join Up" in the
round pen. He doesn't give the horse any consideration, coupled with
the fact that he leaves out completely the education of the horse's
eyes & body by encouraging it to softly reverse (go from eye to eye)
TOWARD the trainer in the center of the round pen with frequent rest
periods complete with soothing petting of the horse's face & body (if
the colt is ready or asking for it)& subsequently "hooking on" the
colt no matter how much easy time it takes. This could take minutes,
hours or days to complete completely depending on the level of the
horse's previous exposure to humans. Monty simply does not have the
horse's best interests in mind, & after witnessing him trying to "Join
Up" an 18 month old colt at Las Vegas a few years back, it was obvious
to me that he didn' know how to teach the horse, didn't even come
close & only skimmed the surface of "Round Penning". In my opinion,
this colt was worse off at the end of the session than he was going
in. By the way, this colt was saddled, bridled, driven & ridden in
less than 30 minutes. Driven crazy would be a more accurate statement.
Francis Burton
Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>> Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the
>>Institute of Biomedical
>> & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
>
>*Our* Francis?
Yes, except I'm a cardiac electrophysiologist. Equine behaviour is
something I study away from work. I certainly wouldn't call myself
a "behaviourist"!
>I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is "licking and
>chewing". This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release.
Evidently meaning was lost in the translation from English to German
and back again. I never stated that rebound after adrenaline release
is a confirmed mechanism for licking and chewing. It is just a pet
theory of mine. (It fits the facts though!)
>At *last* someone articulates what has been one of MY big issues with
>so much of this natural horsemanship stuff...the overemphasis on
>predator/prey visualizations.
Yup, it bugs me too.
Francis
John Hasler
> I certainly wouldn't call myself a "behaviourist"!
I would.
> Evidently meaning was lost in the translation from English to German and
> back again. I never stated that rebound after adrenaline release is a
> confirmed mechanism for licking and chewing. It is just a pet theory of
> mine. (It fits the facts though!)
And yawning?
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<zclayri...@comcast.net> wrote:
snip
>Gads, Gee Louise! I picked the very same things to *comment on* in my mind.
>You getting to be a mind reader, Joyce?
Great minds think alike.
>I also find the Monty way a great big overkill. It tries to take the horse
>down to a totally mindless prey victim and gives it no recourse. If it does
>have recourse it is then branded "untrainable" or worse a "rouge horse";
>neither is true. Many of the horses unable to relent to the mindless round
>pen are alpha horses who could be trained by gentle and humane methods
>without all the stress involved to make one "a zombie" to obey man. MHO
It's not just Monty, it's Parelli as well. He had an article in the
Western Horseman a few years back where he was pontificating on his
predator/prey imagery, and it ticked me off right royally.
I work with two different "prey" species--rabbits and horses. Rabbits
can have the same sort of herd and dominance issues as horses; they're
just significantly smaller. I would never ever approach a difficult
to handle rabbit thinking it was a prey animal and treating it as
such, because not only can that backfire on me (for both rabbits and
horses, some of exactly the sort of alpha temperment you describe can
and *will* fight back hard as a component of fear) from the behavior
of the animal's standpoint, it is also an inappropriate attitude for
*me* as the handler to have for either the rabbit or the horse.
If you think of the critter as a prey animal and yourself as a
predator, that's going to show up in how you approach the critter.
Much better to think of yourself as the herd leader!
jrw
Francis Burton
John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>Francis writes:
>> I certainly wouldn't call myself a "behaviourist"!
>
>I would.
You'd call me a behaviourist, or yourself?
>> Evidently meaning was lost in the translation from English to German and
>> back again. I never stated that rebound after adrenaline release is a
>> confirmed mechanism for licking and chewing. It is just a pet theory of
>> mine. (It fits the facts though!)
>
>And yawning?
As far as I know, it remains an enigma. I don't know if it
serves the same function as in humans (whatever that is) or
if it is even homologous. It could have more than one function.
It could be an epiphenomenon. Sheila Green has stated that
"horses yawn for the assertion of dominance, without the
ability to breathe in through their mouths" but I haven't seen
the basis of that statement.
Sorry I can't be more definitive. Do you have any ideas?
Francis
Muleskinner
>In article <87u152s...@toncho.dhh.gt.org>, John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>>Francis writes:
>>> I certainly wouldn't call myself a "behaviourist"!
>>I would.
>You'd call me a behaviourist, or yourself?
I'd call you one, in a heartbeat.
>>> Evidently meaning was lost in the translation from English to German and
>>> back again. I never stated that rebound after adrenaline release is a
>>> confirmed mechanism for licking and chewing. It is just a pet theory of
>>> mine. (It fits the facts though!)
>>
>>And yawning?
>
>As far as I know, it remains an enigma. I don't know if it
>serves the same function as in humans (whatever that is) or
>if it is even homologous. It could have more than one function.
>It could be an epiphenomenon. Sheila Green has stated that
>"horses yawn for the assertion of dominance, without the
>ability to breathe in through their mouths" but I haven't seen
>the basis of that statement.
>
>Sorry I can't be more definitive. Do you have any ideas?
>
>Francis
I'm always in the process of changing my mind on things,
and this year in particular I got to shuffle even more horses
around than usual. It's fascinating to watch horses become
herdmates and establish interrelationships, anyway.
Consider the jaw movements made in submission, then ask
how a horse would shift from that behavior to an assertion
which is not so submissive, in an attempt to test status.
Sometimes it seems they yawn when they'd like to improve
their influence over the situation. Letting horses know that
they are to influence situations is paramount in training them.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>Consider the jaw movements made in submission, then ask
>how a horse would shift from that behavior to an assertion
>which is not so submissive, in an attempt to test status.
>
>Sometimes it seems they yawn when they'd like to improve
>their influence over the situation. Letting horses know that
>they are to influence situations is paramount in training them.
So what happens when a human yawns at a horse? Darned if I know, I'm
usually not in yawn mode when I'm around the four-leggeds.
jrw
John Hasler
> You'd call me a behaviourist, or yourself?
You.
> As far as I know, [yawning] remains an enigma. I don't know if it serves
> the same function as in humans (whatever that is) or if it is even
> homologous.
I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
> Sheila Green has stated that "horses yawn for the assertion of dominance,
> without the ability to breathe in through their mouths" but I haven't
> seen the basis of that statement.
Neither have I. She may be observing what I mentioned above and be
interpreting it differenetly.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
danh
news:h6cirv8eif7866vg3...@4ax.com...
(No, I shouldn't, but what the hell.)
> >I also find the Monty way a great big overkill. It tries to take the
horse
> >down to a totally mindless prey victim and gives it no recourse. If it
does
> >have recourse it is then branded "untrainable" or worse a "rouge horse";
> >neither is true. Many of the horses unable to relent to the mindless
round
> >pen are alpha horses who could be trained by gentle and humane methods
> >without all the stress involved to make one "a zombie" to obey man. MHO
Giving the horse what it needs when it needs it in the amount it needs is
the human's responsibility. Applying boot camp mentality to kindergartners
works no better with horses than people.
> It's not just Monty, it's Parelli as well. He had an article in the
> Western Horseman a few years back where he was pontificating on his
> predator/prey imagery, and it ticked me off right royally.
One person's pontification is another's profundity. Why a different
perspective is annoying has always puzzled me.
> I work with two different "prey" species--rabbits and horses. Rabbits
> can have the same sort of herd and dominance issues as horses; they're
> just significantly smaller.
"Can have" doesn't mean "does have". I wouldn't begin to treat a 1000 #
horse like a 10# rabbit, and anyone who would isn't using good sense.
[...]
> If you think of the critter as a prey animal and yourself as a
> predator, that's going to show up in how you approach the critter.
>
> Much better to think of yourself as the herd leader!
It's much better to simply recognize things for what they are and act
accordingly. Horses are flight prey animals. Humans are predators in
action and appearances. Horses respond best when they don't perceive
themselves to be at risk. There are many different leadership styles, but
the long term successful ones all have in common, that there is a positive
basis for working together. If the prey/predator imagery helps, good, if it
doesn't move on to another one that makes sense for you, without condeming
what works for others.
Mary Healey
> Humans are predators in action and appearances.
Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches
Bill Kambic
> danh wrote:
> > Humans are predators in action and appearances.
>
> Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
> distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
>
> Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
> defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make. And
they do. But we, as a species, outdo them all with our opposed thumb and
big brain.
Or, as Sam Colt's advertising used to put it, "God made men; Colt makes 'em
equal."
Bill Kambic
If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.
Mary Healey
> "Mary Healey" wrote in message
>
>
>>danh wrote:
>>
>>> Humans are predators in action and appearances.
>>
>>Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
>>distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
>>
>>Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
>>defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
>
> Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make. And
> they do. But we, as a species, outdo them all with our opposed thumb and
> big brain.
That's the opportunist in us, not the predator. We kill because we can,
but if the steak tartare eludes us we survive just as well on grubs
and shrubs.
I'm not sure there's much difference from a prey animal's perspective,
particularly a prey animal in close proximity to us. I just think it's
good to remember that we're essentially creatures of opportunity, more
adaptable (less predictable?) than a purely predatory species.
danh
news:bpdigd$43g$1...@news.iastate.edu...
> danh wrote:
> > Humans are predators in action and appearances.
>
> Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
> distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
Eyes in front and direct approaches give us away.
> Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
> defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
Humans are far more than scavengers and 10 men using sticks and stones make
a formidable group able to drive off pretty much anything other than another
group of humans.
Bill Kambic
> > Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
And
> > they do. But we, as a species, outdo them all with our opposed thumb
and
> > big brain.
>
> That's the opportunist in us, not the predator.
No, it the predator in us. If it wasn't the predator then would not have
the .45-110 cartridge.
We kill because we can,
> but if the steak tartare eludes us we survive just as well on grubs
> and shrubs.
No, we don't. We fall back, regroup, and try again for the higher value
meal.
> I'm not sure there's much difference from a prey animal's perspective,
> particularly a prey animal in close proximity to us. I just think it's
> good to remember that we're essentially creatures of opportunity, more
> adaptable (less predictable?) than a purely predatory species.
We are surely creatures of opportuntiy, but we tend to create those
opportunities on a regular and frequent basis.
Mary Healey
> "Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
> news:bpdigd$43g$1...@news.iastate.edu...
>
>>danh wrote:
>>
>>> Humans are predators in action and appearances.
>>
>>Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
>>distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
>
>
> Eyes in front and direct approaches give us away.
Like pigs? Lemurs?
>>Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
>>defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
>
> Humans are far more than scavengers and 10 men using sticks and stones make
> a formidable group able to drive off pretty much anything other than another
> group of humans.
Eh? You don't eat what you've driven away, only what you catch. Any 10
men defending a single rabbit carcass will quickly devolve into 9 guys
defending a rabbit carcass and one guy yelling "look over there!" while
trying to eat it himself before anyone else notices. Such is human nature.
John Hasler
> Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
No. We assume that claws and strength and speed the _appearance_ of a
predator make. People don't _look_ like predators.
Bill Kambic
> Bill Kambic writes:
> > Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
>
> No. We assume that claws and strength and speed the _appearance_ of a
> predator make. People don't _look_ like predators.
If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from us?
RPM1
> I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
<NOD>
Last year my mare refused to come in for grain. She stood
at the barn door yawning and yawning... She wasn't right. I
called the vet. It seems that she ate some windfall leaves and
was having an adverse reaction to them. I forget what the vet
gave her but she was certainly stressed! A non-horsey person
probably wouldn't catch it. I always watch her very closely when
she yawns more than once or twice. When the above happened
she was yawning non-stop one after another until after the vet
gave her the shot of whatever it was. I wish I could remember.
If I see Mouse yawn more than twice I'm out there checking her
over.
Ruth CM
[African, Indian, Chinese, Eskimo, Mexican babies laying in a semi-circle]
Chinese Baby: Stewie, come complete our rainbow.
Stewie: I've got a better idea, let's go play swallow the stuff under the
sink.
Karen
wrote on 11/18/03 8:31 AM:
> Francis writes:
>> You'd call me a behaviourist, or yourself?
>
> You.
>
>> As far as I know, [yawning] remains an enigma. I don't know if it serves
>> the same function as in humans (whatever that is) or if it is even
>> homologous.
>
> I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
De lurk. Just wanted to say people do it when nervous. Often used to calm
down nerves before public appearances. Seems to be a spontaneous thing. In
acting school, they even taught us to force a yawn to calm and focus. I
never had to force. Something about getting oxygen to the blood.
Lurk again.
Karen
danh
> danh wrote:
> > "Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
> > news:bpdigd$43g$1...@news.iastate.edu...
> >>danh wrote:
> >>
> >>> Humans are predators in action and appearances.
> >>
> >>Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
> >>distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
> >
> > Eyes in front and direct approaches give us away.
>
> Like pigs? Lemurs?
Wild boars and lemurs don't approach waterholes directly, they check out the
area to protect against predators. Believe whatever you want and name any
exceptions to general rules that gives you pleasure, but check in with
reality occasionally - there is no more successful predator species on earth
than humans.
> >>Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
> >>defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
> >
> > Humans are far more than scavengers and 10 men using sticks and stones
make
> > a formidable group able to drive off pretty much anything other than
another
> > group of humans.
>
> Eh? You don't eat what you've driven away, only what you catch. Any 10
> men defending a single rabbit carcass will quickly devolve into 9 guys
> defending a rabbit carcass and one guy yelling "look over there!" while
> trying to eat it himself before anyone else notices. Such is human
nature.
Yes, but you miss the point entirely. 10 humans will kill and defend a
large carcass successfully, so without claws or whatever apparently natural
predator features, will trump every other species, including, if necessary,
killing and eating the would-be predators.
Petra Ruettiger
>> Like pigs? Lemurs?
>
>Wild boars and lemurs don't approach waterholes directly, they check out the
>area to protect against predators.
plus most animals who are by nature designed to be someone's dinner are afraid
of wild boar, which are basically pigs with a furcoat :-) - a lot of horses are
terrified of basic harmless house-pigs....
The other thing pigs and humans have in common is being omnivorous, and
prey-animals tend to be weary of omnivores, treating them as predators until
proven differently.
Petra
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>One person's pontification is another's profundity. Why a different
>perspective is annoying has always puzzled me.
IIRC, you're a Parelli fan, correct?
I find Parelli prone to oversimplifying.
>
>> I work with two different "prey" species--rabbits and horses. Rabbits
>> can have the same sort of herd and dominance issues as horses; they're
>> just significantly smaller.
>
>"Can have" doesn't mean "does have". I wouldn't begin to treat a 1000 #
>horse like a 10# rabbit, and anyone who would isn't using good sense.
Then you are a fool if you don't notice the similarities and react
accordingly. Training rabbits can lead to substantial insights into
how horses respond. Like horses, they are herd animals with flight
mechanisms; they also have strong dominance and herd hierarchy
mechanisms. They are capable of doing serious damage to your arms and
hands with teeth and claws, and anyone who minimizes that potential
has never experienced what a frightened or angry rabbit can do to
people (one person has described an attack by an angry New Zealand doe
as having his hand turned into hamburger).
snip
>> If you think of the critter as a prey animal and yourself as a
>> predator, that's going to show up in how you approach the critter.
>>
>> Much better to think of yourself as the herd leader!
>
>It's much better to simply recognize things for what they are and act
>accordingly. Horses are flight prey animals. Humans are predators in
>action and appearances.
There speaks the Parelli follower addicted to predator/prey imagery.
The predator/prey imagery creates the wrong visualization in a
person's mind. I don't want anyone working with any horse I'm with
visualizing themselves as a predator upon the animal. It creates an
image within your mind which is not productive.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>"Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
>news:bpdigd$43g$1...@news.iastate.edu...
>> danh wrote:
>> > Humans are predators in action and appearances.
>>
>> Yeah, the pointy teeth, sharp claws, and great speed over short
>> distances really makes us look and act like predators, doesn't it?
>
>Eyes in front and direct approaches give us away.
Explain how this differs from our close kin in the primate family,
some of which are NOT predators.
>
>> Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Scavengers without the ability to
>> defend a kill. Predator, my Aunt Irma.
>
>Humans are far more than scavengers and 10 men using sticks and stones make
>a formidable group able to drive off pretty much anything other than another
>group of humans.
How many horse trainers resort to 10 men using sticks and stones?
jrw
Cricket
I noticed while riding Shore-to-Shore this spring that Jack will yawn if I
do. I never thought to notice before, and I'm not usually right with him
twentyfour-seven like that (for ten days - lots of chances for observation),
so I don't know if he's just weird (well, aside from the usual) or not.
Cricket
"RPM1" <rpm1de...@direcway.com> wrote in message
news:bpds89$1nag9l$1...@ID-203708.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "John Hasler"
> > I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
>
> <NOD>
>
> Last year my mare refused to come in for grain. She stood
> at the barn door yawning and yawning... She wasn't right. I
> called the vet. It seems that she ate some windfall leaves and
> was having an adverse reaction to them. I forget what the vet
> gave her but she was certainly stressed! A non-horsey person
> probably wouldn't catch it. I always watch her very closely when
> she yawns more than once or twice. When the above happened
> she was yawning non-stop one after another until after the vet
> gave her the shot of whatever it was. I wish I could remember.
> If I see Mouse yawn more than twice I'm out there checking her
> over.
Oh, yeah, that reminds me - Jack did considerable yawning (as opposed to
weird gyrations of the jaw and other carrying on) when he got a choke a
while back. Almost forgot that.
Cricket
"Karen" <kchu...@alltelPOP.netGOAWAY> wrote in message
news:BBDFD0C8.B225%kchu...@alltelPOP.netGOAWAY...
> in article 87znetr...@toncho.dhh.gt.org, John Hasler at
jo...@dhh.gt.org
> wrote on 11/18/03 8:31 AM:
>
> > Francis writes:
> >> You'd call me a behaviourist, or yourself?
> >
> > You.
> >
> >> As far as I know, [yawning] remains an enigma. I don't know if it
serves
> >> the same function as in humans (whatever that is) or if it is even
> >> homologous.
> >
> > I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
>
> De lurk. Just wanted to say people do it when nervous. Often used to calm
> down nerves before public appearances. Seems to be a spontaneous thing. In
> acting school, they even taught us to force a yawn to calm and focus. I
> never had to force. Something about getting oxygen to the blood.
Well apparently people do it when reading about all this yawning...;>)
Tamara Howard
> danh wrote:
> >
> > Humans are far more than scavengers and 10 men using sticks and stones make
> > a formidable group able to drive off pretty much anything other than another
> > group of humans.
mary wrote >
> Eh? You don't eat what you've driven away, only what you catch.
I think that primitive man used the more wasteful "drive the herd
over the cliff" approach in their early histories...becoming less
wasteful as the weapons developed more accuracy over greater
distances...and then kept giant hyenas at bay <g>
Tamara in TN
John Hasler
> If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from
> us?
The few that have never seen humans before run away from them for the same
reason they run away from anything strange. The ones that have seen humans
run away because they have learned that, appearances to the contrary,
humans _are_ predators.
Don't get your anthropocentrism all in a knot. I'm not impugning human
superiority. I'm just pointing out that most predators have a general
similarity in appearance and behavior which prey animals do instinctively
recognize but which humans do not share. Thus the notion that horse will
instinctively fear humans "because humans are predators" is bunk.
Sheryl Reasonover
>Last year my mare refused to come in for grain. She stood
>at the barn door yawning and yawning...
I remember from some med class somewhere that yawning is a sign of liver
damage. Sometimes, I misremember things though.
Sheryl Reasonover
>
>Well apparently people do it when reading about all this yawning...;>)
>
Just please don't yawn in front of me. Especially if you are another one of
those people who yawn when they see or hear someone yawning. From experience,
I tell you that this can go on for long periods of time between giggles.
Sheryl Reasonover
>If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from us?
Because we smell bad.
John Hasler
> How many horse trainers resort to 10 men using sticks and stones?
Whose name is in the subject line? (using the word 'trainer' very loosely).
Wando
Here's the link:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1068937808479
If that doesn't work, I've quoted it below:
Brenda
Don't be afraid to yawn while you read this
JAY INGRAM
Sometimes, the simplest behaviours are the hardest to understand. Take
yawning, for instance.
We all do it and we all know that it is contagious: See someone yawning, or
even read about it, and you'll want to yawn. Yet why we act this way is
poorly understood at best.
Most of us assume that yawning is a response to either too little oxygen or
too much carbon dioxide in the air.
A stuffy classroom in the mid-afternoon of a hot day is the classic setting:
A couple of deep yawns should bring a flood of fresh oxygen into the lungs
and restore alertness.
It may indeed have something to do with alertness, but there's not much
evidence it has anything to do with oxygen.
Experiments almost 20 years ago established that people don't yawn any more
frequently when they're in an atmosphere of reduced oxygen or increased
carbon dioxide.
It's also true that it would be easier simply to take a deep breath if
oxygen is what you're craving,
Add to that images of fetuses yawning in the womb (where oxygen is not an
issue) and the idea of raising oxygen levels is on pretty shaky ground.
However, it still might be true that by forcing your mouth wide open, you
dilate some blood vessels and propel more blood - and more oxygen - to the
brain.
(A wide-open mouth is a key part of yawning. If you don't think so, try
yawning with your teeth clenched. It's extremely unfulfilling.)
But yawning to shunt more oxygen to the brain would have more to do with a
need for alertness than low ambient levels of oxygen, and some experiments
suggest there is a link between yawning and mental arousal.
Ronald Baenninger and his colleagues at Temple University in Philadelphia
have shown that yawning is most frequent just after rising in the morning
and just before going to bed at night.
(You might think that's an obvious truth, but actually showing that those
are the times of most frequent yawning is trickier than you'd think, mostly
because volunteers are reluctant to display their yawns.)
These peak times could be lumped together as the need to jolt the nervous
system in the morning, and an effort to maintain alertness in the face of
increasing fatigue at night.
This arousal idea makes even more sense when applied to other animals.
Carnivores live lives that are all over the arousal map, alternating between
relaxing and chasing down prey. Herbivores, on the other hand, spend most of
their waking lives eating. Sure enough, carnivores yawn much more
frequently.
(One observer failed to see a single giraffe yawn in 35 hours of
observation.)
Even so, why yawning - and not some other action - has evolved to be the
mechanism for increasing arousal isn't known.
Even if you accept the notion that we yawn to upgrade our level of
alertness, there's still the unanswered question of the contagious yawn. I'd
be willing to bet that you might even be doing it right now. But why?
It might be a simple connection to arousal: If it makes sense for one member
of the social group to become more alert, then probably the others should do
so too.
This is a very difficult claim to test, but some experiments have suggested
a social connection by showing that yawning is most contagious for those who
have a well-developed sensitivity to what's going on in other peoples'
minds.
The ability to "read minds" is an important component of human social life.
It allows us to guess what's going on in others' minds and opens the doors
to the full range of human behaviour, from empathy to deception.
In one study, subjects who showed the strongest ability to figure out what
is on someone else's mind were also those who found yawns the most
contagious.
This study would make some interesting predictions: Children don't develop a
full-blown sense of what others are thinking until they are 3 or even 4
years old. Until that time, they shouldn't find yawns contagious.
Unfortunately, these experiments don't provide the ultimate answers. Yawns
raise alertness - but how? Yawns are contagious for social reasons - but
why? It is a simple behaviour that defies explanation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Jay Ingram hosts the Daily Planet show on the Discovery Channel.
CMNewell
wrote:
>"John Hasler" wrote in message
>
>> Bill Kambic writes:
>> > Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
>>
>> No. We assume that claws and strength and speed the _appearance_ of a
>> predator make. People don't _look_ like predators.
>
>If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from us?
>
>Bill Kambic
Maybe it's your deodorant.
CMNewell, DVM
"Do you realize that
world peace could be achieved with Basset Hounds?"
--Terry von Gease
Bill Kambic
> >If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from
us?
> >
> >Bill Kambic
>
> Maybe it's your deodorant.
Must be my breath, 'cause I don't wear deoderant.
Wait a minute...?!?!?!?!?!
Leann S
Cricket
"John Hasler" <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote in message
news:87islhp...@toncho.dhh.gt.org...
> Bill Kambic writes:
> > If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from
> > us?
>
> The few that have never seen humans before run away from them for the same
> reason they run away from anything strange. The ones that have seen
humans
> run away because they have learned that, appearances to the contrary,
> humans _are_ predators.
My usual example to customers - if that big black thing is a rock that
looks like a bear, and you run away, no big deal. If it's a bear that looks
like a rock...
Prey animals don't do well when they're real into checking out what
something really is first - run away! run away! is the order of the day.
Cricket
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3fbab...@news.vic.com...
> "CMNewell" wrote in message
>
> > >If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from
> us?
> > >
> > >Bill Kambic
> >
> > Maybe it's your deodorant.
>
> Must be my breath, 'cause I don't wear deoderant.
>
> Wait a minute...?!?!?!?!?!
A light dawns? ;>)
John Hasler
> What on earth do these "horse behavioralistst" do to work with a horse?
Which "horse behavioralistst" are you referring to?
> If sending a horse around the round pen is too traumatic I would be very
> interested to see what on earth you can do with a horsie that would be
> acceptable to them.
I'm often amazed at the lengths people will go to in order to avoid
admitting that they are punishing a horse.
Tamara Howard
> plus most animals who are by nature designed to be someone's dinner are afraid
> of wild boar, which are basically pigs with a furcoat :-) - a lot of horses are
> terrified of basic harmless house-pigs....
speaking of pigs and horses...I've been good parts of the day
keeping an eye on a first litter gilt in the old dairy expecting
probably in the morning..
if I were guessing my pigs frighten horses because a) it is
the rare person any more that sees farm pigs much less horses...and
b) when they're not barking and jumping and waggin their tails as
small pigs, when grown they are 500 to 800 pound giants walking that
slow swaggering side to side walk and making odd grunts having no
start or end to their bodies...just legs...and floppy ears
most people I know just smile polietly from the outside of the pen
when I ask them if they'd like to come in and see the big
guys...maybe it the thought that they are somehow dirty creatures
inherently or maybe all the old "legends" of Grandaddy Hawkins gettin'
et UP " by that mama sow ? <g>
dunno...I just think that they are great
Tamara in TN
Francis Burton
John Hasler <jo...@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>The few that have never seen humans before run away from them for the same
>reason they run away from anything strange.
Indeed, I have seen horses running away from donkeys - which
clearly don't look like predators by previously mentioned
criteria. However, on repeated exposure, horses are quick to
learn what represents a danger and what is safe. The degree
of generalisation may differ. Thus a horse may learn to trust
one handler but not another, or learn to fear all humans as
a result of bad experiences with one.
Francis
Francis Burton
Wando <brfan...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>There was an article in the Toronto Star the other day concerning yawning.
>Here's the link:
>http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
>le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1068937808479
Nice article - thanks for posting!
Francis
Muleskinner
>Muleskinner wrote:
>>Consider the jaw movements made in submission, then ask
>>how a horse would shift from that behavior to an assertion
>>which is not so submissive, in an attempt to test status.
>>
>>Sometimes it seems they yawn when they'd like to improve
>>their influence over the situation. Letting horses know that
>>they are to influence situations is paramount in training them.
>
>So what happens when a human yawns at a horse? Darned if I know, I'm
>usually not in yawn mode when I'm around the four-leggeds.
>
>jrw
I could depend on whether the human just had alfalfa tea
or a bowl of cheval stew before doing so ...
I've been contemplating it, but can't ascertain the significance
of the way I yawned as I toted hay bales out yesterday.
Muleskinner
Muleskinner
>"RPM1" <rpm1de...@direcway.com> wrote in message news:bpds89$1nag9l$1...@ID-203708.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> "John Hasler"
>> > I have noticed that horses tend to yawn when stressed.
>> <NOD>
>> Last year my mare refused to come in for grain. She stood
>> at the barn door yawning and yawning... She wasn't right. I
>> called the vet. It seems that she ate some windfall leaves and
>> was having an adverse reaction to them. I forget what the vet
>> gave her but she was certainly stressed! A non-horsey person
>> probably wouldn't catch it. I always watch her very closely when
>> she yawns more than once or twice. When the above happened
>> she was yawning non-stop one after another until after the vet
>> gave her the shot of whatever it was. I wish I could remember.
>> If I see Mouse yawn more than twice I'm out there checking her
>> over.
>
>Oh, yeah, that reminds me - Jack did considerable yawning (as opposed to
>weird gyrations of the jaw and other carrying on) when he got a choke a
>while back. Almost forgot that.
Interesting. I guess I don't manage to stress the horses here enough ...
All I get to see is the reactions of horses to each other when they
have no cause to do anything more than gesture toward each other.
I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses. I've
seen the older ones yawn when they're left behind as others are
taken out to work. I'm still watching for other examples, too.
Susan Ravan
Susan Ravan
"Tamara Howard" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
news:4cb43db8.03111...@posting.google.com...
Francis Burton
Muleskinner <rec.equestrian> wrote:
>I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
>when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses.
Certainly adults do the appeasing/submissive yamming thing a lot
less than youngsters. But are you also saying that foals don't
yawn at all, or at least much less than adults? That would be very
interesting if true.
(See photo at http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/yawn.jpg for one
counterexample.)
>I've
>seen the older ones yawn when they're left behind as others are
>taken out to work. I'm still watching for other examples, too.
This sounds a worthwhile effort. I will watch for examples too.
Please keep us updated!
Francis
Mary Healey
> "John Hasler" wrote in message
>>Bill Kambic writes:
>>
>>>Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
>>
>>No. We assume that claws and strength and speed the _appearance_ of a
>>predator make. People don't _look_ like predators.
>
> If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from us?
Novelty?
Pigs don't look like predators, but horses run away from 'em. Some
horses also run away from cattle, sheep, and chickens, while bedding
down with dogs and cats. It's all in what you're used to, I suspect.
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches
danh
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:28:43 -0500, "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com>
> wrote:
> snip
>
> >One person's pontification is another's profundity. Why a different
> >perspective is annoying has always puzzled me.
>
> IIRC, you're a Parelli fan, correct?
Nope.
> I find Parelli prone to oversimplifying.
Well, yeah. I've yet to read an article in <insert name of horse pub> that
wasn't simplified - it's the nature of mass communication. For that matter,
the same is true of politics, gossip, science, comedy and most other areas
of interest. Unless one is writing for an audience of one's peers, it's not
possible to avoid simplifying commentary.
> >> I work with two different "prey" species--rabbits and horses. Rabbits
> >> can have the same sort of herd and dominance issues as horses; they're
> >> just significantly smaller.
> >
> >"Can have" doesn't mean "does have". I wouldn't begin to treat a 1000 #
> >horse like a 10# rabbit, and anyone who would isn't using good sense.
>
> Then you are a fool if you don't notice the similarities and react
> accordingly. Training rabbits can lead to substantial insights into
> how horses respond. Like horses, they are herd animals with flight
> mechanisms; they also have strong dominance and herd hierarchy
> mechanisms. They are capable of doing serious damage to your arms and
> hands with teeth and claws, and anyone who minimizes that potential
> has never experienced what a frightened or angry rabbit can do to
> people (one person has described an attack by an angry New Zealand doe
> as having his hand turned into hamburger).
When's the last time you held a horse in the palm of your hand? Recognizing
similarities is fine, but failing to recognize differences is foolish.
>
> snip
>
> >> If you think of the critter as a prey animal and yourself as a
> >> predator, that's going to show up in how you approach the critter.
> >>
> >> Much better to think of yourself as the herd leader!
> >
> >It's much better to simply recognize things for what they are and act
> >accordingly. Horses are flight prey animals. Humans are predators in
> >action and appearances.
>
> There speaks the Parelli follower addicted to predator/prey imagery.
No, I don't follow anyone, but I do recognize reality. Let's use a
different example. IIRC, you've commented positively on Mark Rashid's
approach to horses. His basic tenet on this is that the alpha may be the
"herd leader" but that horses in middle management are the most influential
on the herd. The point is: absorb everything and select what works for
you. What works for others may not be the same, and if it works for them,
let it go.
> The predator/prey imagery creates the wrong visualization in a
> person's mind. I don't want anyone working with any horse I'm with
> visualizing themselves as a predator upon the animal. It creates an
> image within your mind which is not productive.
It can be helpful to those who are learning to speak horse, which, IIRC, is
Parelli's target market. Here's some predatory practices - gripping the
reins and pulling hard when the horse startles, hitting the horse hard and
abruptly once instead of giving it a chance to respond to lesser cues,
squeezing below the knees for balance, jerking a stud chain, trying to
approach a skittish horse in a straight line toward its head, yelling at the
horse (as though it speaks Mongolian, Spanish, German, Esperanto or any
other human vocalizations). I'm sure you've seen these and others many
times.
J. Z. M.
>
> if I were guessing my pigs frighten horses because a) it is
> the rare person any more that sees farm pigs much less horses...and
> b) when they're not barking and jumping and waggin their tails as
> small pigs, when grown they are 500 to 800 pound giants walking that
> slow swaggering side to side walk and making odd grunts having no
> start or end to their bodies...just legs...and floppy ears
Oh, I'm guessing they fear they might actually look like those big porkers!
:)
In an older equitation book, Suenig BTW, he mentions pigs and he was sure it
was the smell more than the appearance. <?>
Jody
Terry von Gease
> Bill Kambic wrote:
>
> > "John Hasler" wrote in message
> >>Bill Kambic writes:
> >>
> >>>Ah, but you presume that claws and strength and speed a predator make.
> >>
> >>No. We assume that claws and strength and speed the _appearance_ of a
> >>predator make. People don't _look_ like predators.
> >
> > If people don't look like predators why do wild creatures run away from
us?
>
> Novelty?
>
> Pigs don't look like predators, but horses run away from 'em.
No but they sure as hell smell like bears. Have a whiff of each, both alive
and dead, and see what I mean. Just speculation here, not holy writ,,,
>Some
> horses also run away from cattle, sheep, and chickens, while bedding
> down with dogs and cats. It's all in what you're used to, I suspect.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
Mary Healey
> It can be helpful to those who are learning to speak horse, which, IIRC, is
> Parelli's target market. Here's some predatory practices - gripping the
> reins and pulling hard when the horse startles, hitting the horse hard and
> abruptly once instead of giving it a chance to respond to lesser cues,
> squeezing below the knees for balance, jerking a stud chain, trying to
> approach a skittish horse in a straight line toward its head, yelling at the
> horse (as though it speaks Mongolian, Spanish, German, Esperanto or any
> other human vocalizations). I'm sure you've seen these and others many
> times.
You conflate "predatory" and "aggressive". This confusion can only
complicate the learning process -- especially when people mistakenly
believe that horses, as prey animals, cannot behave aggressively. Sure
they can. Sure they do.
danh
> danh wrote:
> > It can be helpful to those who are learning to speak horse, which, IIRC,
is
> > Parelli's target market. Here's some predatory practices - gripping the
> > reins and pulling hard when the horse startles, hitting the horse hard
and
> > abruptly once instead of giving it a chance to respond to lesser cues,
> > squeezing below the knees for balance, jerking a stud chain, trying to
> > approach a skittish horse in a straight line toward its head, yelling at
the
> > horse (as though it speaks Mongolian, Spanish, German, Esperanto or any
> > other human vocalizations). I'm sure you've seen these and others many
> > times.
>
> You conflate "predatory" and "aggressive".
Not really. When humans respond instinctively, we respond as predators -
hence the not-atypical grasping of the reins when a horse startles at noise
or the jerking of a chain to "calm" a horse or even a direct line approach.
Many people kick the horse to get it moving instead of squeezing first.
These aren't particularly aggressive acts.
As with most human grunts, the words prey and predator have no intrinsic
meaning. I don't subscribe to any particular way are articulating things
horse and I also don't reject words which contain some truth merely because
they don't happen to be my particular words. There is no single truth and
no single comprehensive way of putting things in a way that is meaningful to
everyone. If the metaphor helps a newbie, great. If not, there are other
images and words that may be more meaningful. But to argue that horses
aren't prey and humans not predators is folly and factually inaccurate.
This confusion can only
> complicate the learning process -- especially when people mistakenly
> believe that horses, as prey animals, cannot behave aggressively. Sure
> they can. Sure they do.
Yup. And horses are also born cowards, so it's easy to ward them off
(mostly). We probably don't want to get into the details of the learning
process. One size doesn't fit all humans or horses or anything else, AFAIK.
JC Dill
wrote:
>Not really. When humans respond instinctively, we respond as predators -
>hence the not-atypical grasping of the reins when a horse startles at noise
>or the jerking of a chain to "calm" a horse or even a direct line approach.
>Many people kick the horse to get it moving instead of squeezing first.
>These aren't particularly aggressive acts.
I beg to differ. If you take someone who has never seen or handled
horses before, and hand them a lead rope or put them on top, they
almost NEVER act predatory. The instinctive human response in this
situation is fear, the actions are timid and frequently ineffective at
getting the horse to comply with the human requests. Humans generally
only act as you describe above after they have LEARNED to do those
actions (from others) to attempt to get the desired reactions from the
horse.
jc
Ruth Baltopoulos
| "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
Well, I just don't know about that :) I have seen some
serious instances of aggressive behavior in a few major
newbies lately that would thoroughly contradict that
hypothesis, and AFAIK the actions weren't learned from
anyone they had been working with.
Most memorably is a man in his late thirties that has very
recently begun riding out of a stable in my town. He
purports to love love love the hossies, and stepped in shit
with the recent freebie acquisition of a very patient, broke
App horse. I have heard about some of his infantile acts of
aggression to this poor horse when he is frustrated. He has
no farkin' idea what he is doing, but will beat the horse
with his crop and haul on her face when he perceives that
she is not doing what he wants, whatever the bloody hell
that might be. He is a reputed shank yanker as well. One
of my riding buddies and her husband were recently on a
large, organized trail ride in which he participated. By
the end of the ride, he had been verbally torched by several
people, and one of the women took his crop away. My buds
told the woman that organized the group to please not call
them to attend anything he is participating in.
Anyway, I have seen many rank newbies that I believe are not
exhibiting learned behavior at all, but are acting out
either their fear or insecurities in an aggressive manner.
I have also seen timidity around horses by newbies, which in
turn, can create an aggressive reaction by the horse.
--
Ruth B -- Remove your blinders to send email :)
Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."
---
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11/18/2003
Franzen <"nospamhfranzen@aland.net >
wrote:
>I noticed while riding Shore-to-Shore this spring that Jack will yawn if I
>do. I never thought to notice before, and I'm not usually right with him
>twentyfour-seven like that (for ten days - lots of chances for observation),
>so I don't know if he's just weird (well, aside from the usual) or not.
I've noticed that if the horse yawns so do I. Likewise if another
human does.
Mvh Helene
Mary Healey
> Anyway, I have seen many rank newbies that I believe are not
> exhibiting learned behavior at all, but are acting out
> either their fear or insecurities in an aggressive manner.
Neither fear nor insecurity are predatory, though. Labeling aggressive
behavior "predatory" is neither accurate nor comprehensive.
> I have also seen timidity around horses by newbies, which in
> turn, can create an aggressive reaction by the horse.
I just don't see the usefulness in calling a spade a sparrow.
Ruth Baltopoulos
| Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
| > Anyway, I have seen many rank newbies that I believe are
not
| > exhibiting learned behavior at all, but are acting out
| > either their fear or insecurities in an aggressive
manner.
| Neither fear nor insecurity are predatory, though.
Labeling aggressive
| behavior "predatory" is neither accurate nor
comprehensive.
I made no statement saying that I felt fear or insecurity
were predatory :) I was addressing a remark from someone
else that alluded to newbies exhibiting fear and timidity,
and almost never being aggressive. I have seen a fair
amount of behavior in the contrary.
I do feel, however, if a human bean acts out their <fear,
insecurity, whatever> in an inappropriately aggressive
manner on a flight/prey animal that their actions could be
considered predatory in the broader sense, as they are
victimizing an animal that has been trained to be obedient.
| > I have also seen timidity around horses by newbies,
which in
| > turn, can create an aggressive reaction by the horse.
| I just don't see the usefulness in calling a spade a
sparrow.
Neither do I :) Perhaps you are reading more into my
statements than were intended, as they addressed a fairly
specific segment of the discussion.
Kris Anderson
> [....]
> >Sorry I can't be more definitive. Do you have any ideas?
> >
> >Francis
>
> I'm always in the process of changing my mind on things,
> and this year in particular I got to shuffle even more horses
> around than usual. It's fascinating to watch horses become
> herdmates and establish interrelationships, anyway.
>
> Consider the jaw movements made in submission, then ask
> how a horse would shift from that behavior to an assertion
> which is not so submissive, in an attempt to test status.
>
> Sometimes it seems they yawn when they'd like to improve
> their influence over the situation.
I don't think I've seen any increase in yawning behavior when I start
clicker training a horse, yet as soon as they find out that they can
do things to operate the vending machine they likely realize that they
have a whole lot more influence over what happens than they've ever
had before.
One would think that they would be doing a lot of yawning at that
point, but I don't recall seeing any. Some horses get very frustrated
if they can't find the answer, and I've seen some open-mouthed lip
twisting when that happens, but no yawning.
Males also tend to drop when they start getting enthusiastic about
making that vending machine work, but I can't explain that. I thought
maybe they were just concentrating so hard they couldn't remember to
keep it sucked up?
> Letting horses know that they are to influence situations is paramount in training them.
And the first step is to show them that it's safe for them to offer
responses. They need to know that they won't be punished if they
choose the wrong response, but will be rewarded for correct ones.
Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
Mary Healey
> I made no statement saying that I felt fear or insecurity
> were predatory
But those behaviors you suggested might have fear or insecurity as a
basis were offered up as examples of "predatory" behavior. Not by you,
true, but within the context of the discussion I think my objection was
valid.
> I do feel, however, if a human bean acts out their <fear,
> insecurity, whatever> in an inappropriately aggressive
> manner on a flight/prey animal that their actions could be
> considered predatory in the broader sense, as they are
> victimizing an animal that has been trained to be obedient.
Humans beings are often inappropriately aggressive towards predators, as
well, trained or otherwise. I don't think "predator" and "victimizer"
are synonymous, either.
Ruth Baltopoulos
| Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
| > I made no statement saying that I felt fear or
insecurity
| > were predatory
| But those behaviors you suggested might have fear or
insecurity as a
| basis were offered up as examples of "predatory" behavior.
Not by you,
| true, but within the context of the discussion I think my
objection was
| valid.
Your objection in terms of the overall context of the
discussion may be valid, but you pinpointed remarks that I
made specifically as a response to JC Dills comments re:
timidity and general demeanor of newbies in the equine
arena. The behaviors I offered up were made as examples of
aggression as opposed to timidity, and the use of the word
'predatory' was injected by you :)
| > I do feel, however, if a human bean acts out their
<fear,
| > insecurity, whatever> in an inappropriately aggressive
| > manner on a flight/prey animal that their actions could
be
| > considered predatory in the broader sense, as they are
| > victimizing an animal that has been trained to be
obedient.
| Humans beings are often inappropriately aggressive towards
predators, as
| well, trained or otherwise.
Perhaps so.
! I don't think "predator" and "victimizer"
| are synonymous, either.
pred·a·tor (prd-tr, -tôr) n.
1.. An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.
2.. One that victimizes, plunders, or destroys, especially
for one's own gain
aintli...@yup.com
<zclayri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>In an older equitation book, Suenig BTW, he mentions pigs and he was sure it
>was the smell more than the appearance. <?>
I agree. I had a horse that was petrified of pigs, and he would know
they were around before we saw or heard them.
ttfn,
jan
JC Dill
<rud...@yourblinderscomcast.net> wrote:
>Most memorably is a man in his late thirties that has very
>recently begun riding out of a stable in my town.
While this man has not had any personal experience with horses nor any
formal instruction, I suspect that he has seen movies or TV shows
where similar behaviors are shown by others interacting with their
horses (e.g. cowboy movies, rawhide, etc.) and he's emulating what he
has seen. Or what he has learned about handling animals other than
horses (does he have a dog, does he treat his dog the way he treats
his horse?).
jc
Cricket
"Francis Burton" <fbu...@nyx10.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:10692491...@irys.nyx.net...
> In article <lgomrvou6vl0nh3lr...@4ax.com>,
> Muleskinner <rec.equestrian> wrote:
> >I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
> >when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses.
>
> Certainly adults do the appeasing/submissive yamming thing a lot
> less than youngsters. But are you also saying that foals don't
> yawn at all, or at least much less than adults? That would be very
> interesting if true.
Brio (pony colt of my daughter's) used to yawn a lot - usually when he would
find himself the hottest spot in the pasture to lay down in the sun, until I
got nervous about heatstroke and picked him up and moved him. He'd be flat
out boneless limp. I'd plop him back down, he'd give me a "what the hell
did you do that for" sort of look, yawn a big yawn, and flop back down
again. I still occasionally consider the possibility that at some point I
didn't move him quick enough and he cooked his brain...;>)
Cricket
"J. Z. M." <zclayri...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBE0F557.1046B%zclayri...@comcast.net...
Mine have mostly freaked in the presence of fairly large groups of pigs
(herds? gaggles? somebody?) - I think the problem is that they tend to all
rush up and move together, so the initial appearance is that of a ten foot
by teen foot many legged animal. Individual pigs don't seem to bother as
much, though a whole flock of sitting ostriches suddenly rising straight up
to their full height makes for interesting times...
>
> Jody
>
Cricket
I have read that horses adapt to frightening stimuli faster than any other
domestic animal (providing they aren't hurt, I assume they mean). Having
owned dogs that have been terrified of thunder that never hurt them, for
fifteen years, I'm inclined to think they are at least better than dogs.
lizzard woman
"Cricket" <cc...@quixnet.net> wrote in message
news:3aefa$3fbc44d8$4196d117$14...@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
> Mine have mostly freaked in the presence of fairly large groups of pigs
> (herds? gaggles? somebody?) -
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/help/faq/animals/names.htm
A drift, drove, litter (young), sounder (of swine), team, passel (of hogs),
singular (refers to a group of boars)
sharon
Sigen 3
>
>Mine have mostly freaked in the presence of fairly large groups of pigs
>(herds? gaggles? somebody?)
It is a sounder of swine...
I like pack 'o piggies myself :-)
CM
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Not really. When humans respond instinctively, we respond as predators -
>hence the not-atypical grasping of the reins when a horse startles at noise
>or the jerking of a chain to "calm" a horse or even a direct line approach.
>Many people kick the horse to get it moving instead of squeezing first.
>These aren't particularly aggressive acts.
I wouldn't necessarily characterize these acts as
predatory--aggressive yes, predatory no. Dominance behaviors can be
aggressive behaviors and aggression is not limited to predators.
snip
>Yup. And horses are also born cowards, so it's easy to ward them off
>(mostly). We probably don't want to get into the details of the learning
>process. One size doesn't fit all humans or horses or anything else, AFAIK.
>
No, but we *do* know that some conditions are better suited for more
effective learning than others, no matter what the learning style or
species. Fear-based learning is not particularly effective, and
basing your mental training image on a predator/prey mindset risks
slipping into that fear-based visualization--which can work *both*
ways (how many times can you think of human aggression toward horses
which is based on fear?).
jrw
Cindi
> The predator/prey imagery creates the wrong visualization in a
> person's mind. I don't want anyone working with any horse I'm with
> visualizing themselves as a predator upon the animal. It creates an
> image within your mind which is not productive.
This has not been my experience. In my experience, people astute
enough about horses understand that humans *can* act like predators,
and that *can* cause problems in horse handling - and that doesn't
mean that's how it always works, and it isn't a self-fulfilling
prophecy since they are smart enough to avoid it. Then there
are the people who DO act like predators around horses: jerky,
loud, piercing gazes, clenching legs/butts/hands, etc etc.
And in my experience those people are typically helped quite
a bit and very quickly by being told how those behaviors can
make horses nervous because they resemble a predator's behavior.
I've been to quite a few Parelli and Parelli-instructor events,
and I don't have a feeling that the predator/prey relationship
is emphasized too much. To me, I feel like it's simply pointed
out that it could be a problem. I feel more of an emphasis on
herd dynamics, on being a trustworthy leader who is fair but
insistent when necessary. I would imagine that different events
and instuctors can give Parelli a different flavor depending on
what's emphasized each time. But honestly, in every 3 day clinic
I've been to, the predator/prey thing is mentioned in the opening
and talked about for maybe 15 minutes, and then that's about the
last of it. I see many more problems with getting the
participants to be aggressive ENOUGH with their horses, who
are walking all over them without a care in the world. Now I'd
guess that if any given clinic just happened to be full of more
jerky, aggressive, loud, harsh, grabby, clenchy people, maybe
the predator thing would be emphasized a bit more.
Also, I will say that for those of us who've been there, done
that in the consideration of our potential for being seen as
a predator by a horse, hearing it over and over again can
start to get really old. I know every time I hear it now I
do sort of groan to myself. But trying to do an objective
analysis, I really don't feel that it's being emphasized over
and above his other points. At least not around here!
Cindi
> I beg to differ. If you take someone who has never seen or handled
> horses before, and hand them a lead rope or put them on top, they
> almost NEVER act predatory. The instinctive human response in this
> situation is fear, the actions are timid and frequently ineffective at
> getting the horse to comply with the human requests. Humans generally
> only act as you describe above after they have LEARNED to do those
> actions (from others) to attempt to get the desired reactions from the
> horse.
I REALLY don't think you can generalize. How a total newbie reacts
to a horse will depend on his personality. I've given a few beginner
lessons now, and more of my beginners have have been aggressive
than have been timid. What I mean is that they, before instruction
can replace their natural reaction, have been more likely to do
things like yank the reins, kick hard, bounce up and down, jerk on
the lead line, walk right up to a horse and snap their hands up
to try to touch its nose, slap the horse as a form of praise,
yell when they are upset, etc. I have had a few who have been
naturally quiet around the horses, but more have been on the
more aggressive side.
I'm also surprised
to see you say you believe the instinctual response is fear... I
haven't had many fearful newbies, and my daughter and I were not
afraid at all until our first time getting hurt. I have helped
a few fearful people who'd been riding for a while already, but no
fearful newbies. I'm not saying I don't know anybody who's
afraid of horses - I do know one person. But he's so afraid he'd
never be considered a horsey newbie since he won't have anything
to do with them! So, I'm just saying, I don't think you can
generalize.
cindi
Anine Swart
pot-belly but was raised on concentrates so now she's a blooming big
black hairy PIG.
The horses are all used to her but the newcomers take about a month
before they can walk past her without flinching (by then they're used
to sheep, pigs, chickens, miniature ponies and about 20 dogs of all
shapes and sizes). Luckily she's fairly docile and quiet around the
horses (and people).
I remember a few months ago we had a training showjumping show at the
yard and Piggles was snoring next to the stable block. For whatever
reason she got up and wobbled over to the arena to have a look at the
commotion. The rider in the arena was going over a jump directly
facing Piggles when the little mare suddenly spotted the pig. I've
never seen a horse violently spook in mid-air!
The poor mare stood there among the scattered poles and standards
trembling and snorting while the pig ambled past the arena fencing.
After that most of the horses eyed the 'pig spot' very suspiciously
Anine and Draco
CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET (Tamara Howard) wrote in message news:<4cb43db8.03111...@posting.google.com>...
> petrain...@aol.com (Petra Ruettiger) wrote in message
> >
> > plus most animals who are by nature designed to be someone's dinner are afraid
> > of wild boar, which are basically pigs with a furcoat :-) - a lot of horses are
> > terrified of basic harmless house-pigs....
>
> speaking of pigs and horses...I've been good parts of the day
> keeping an eye on a first litter gilt in the old dairy expecting
> probably in the morning..
>
> if I were guessing my pigs frighten horses because a) it is
> the rare person any more that sees farm pigs much less horses...and
> b) when they're not barking and jumping and waggin their tails as
> small pigs, when grown they are 500 to 800 pound giants walking that
> slow swaggering side to side walk and making odd grunts having no
> start or end to their bodies...just legs...and floppy ears
>
> most people I know just smile polietly from the outside of the pen
> when I ask them if they'd like to come in and see the big
> guys...maybe it the thought that they are somehow dirty creatures
> inherently or maybe all the old "legends" of Grandaddy Hawkins gettin'
> et UP " by that mama sow ? <g>
>
> dunno...I just think that they are great
>
> Tamara in TN
Omicron Delta Pineapple
>
> In article <lgomrvou6vl0nh3lr...@4ax.com>,
> Muleskinner <rec.equestrian> wrote:
> >I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
> >when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses.
>
> yawn at all, or at least much less than adults?
No, I think she said that they shift from the jaw clapping to yawns when
interacting with adults. Foals yawn just like adults when it's time to
just yawn.
Re the mare that yawned in reaction to the windfall leaves: Spot
(Appaloosa mare, the Dilemma Mare of yore) yawns jaw-crackingly and
non-stop when she is going into labor.
Lorri
Muleskinner
>Muleskinner wrote in message news:<qe9krvcsepbvm0c7k...@4ax.com>...
>> [....]
Absolutely.
I was hoping you'd weigh in on this.
I don't see anything for a horse to want to challenge in starting
or continuing the clicker training, though. The trainer is inviting,
not imposing, in that excellent approach to behavior modification.
Muleskinner
>In article <lgomrvou6vl0nh3lr...@4ax.com>, Muleskinner <rec.equestrian> wrote:
>>I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
>>when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses.
>
>Certainly adults do the appeasing/submissive yamming thing a lot
>less than youngsters. But are you also saying that foals don't
>yawn at all, or at least much less than adults? That would be very
>interesting if true.
>
>(See photo at http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/yawn.jpg for one
>counterexample.)
I'd never meant to so much as imply that foals don't yawn at all,
sorry to have lent that impression.
I'm not really considering certain similar behaviors, though. I'm
not including gestures that'd represent "there's an alfalfa cube
stuck to my molar" or "gotta help that apple chunk down the
pipe" or anything like that.
It seems, however, that the yawning has more than once been
part of a more dominant foal's response when attempting to move
out of the subordinate role after displaying it in the form of "yamming"
(thanks: I was trying to recall that term). In one particularly fascinating
combination here these days, a long yearling has actually dominated
a much larger, older, unrelated draft cross who is a bossy thing herself.
The filly may be picking through one of many desireable hay piles, for
example, when the bigger mare approaches. The filly does the yamming
at first when the other horse gets close. The filly prefers to continue her
browsing there, however, and the yawning occurs as she transitions to
moving back in on the 'contested' forage, succeeding in regaining her
temporarily-lost status. I've noticed it elsewhere in other horses who
seemed to be interested in changing status even when they didn't
manage to do so afterward.
>>I've
>>seen the older ones yawn when they're left behind as others are
>>taken out to work. I'm still watching for other examples, too.
>
>This sounds a worthwhile effort. I will watch for examples too.
>Please keep us updated!
>
>Francis
Thanks Francis and I sure do look forward to learning from more
of your observations.
My curre theory is that the mandibles are used to squeeze out
bursts of extra brain activity ...
Muleskinner
>Francis Burton wrote:
>> In article <lgomrvou6vl0nh3lr...@4ax.com>,
>> Muleskinner <rec.equestrian> wrote:
>> >I've seen the young stock shift from that clacking action to yawns
>> >when they seem ready to test the dominance of older horses.
>>
>> But are you also saying that foals don't
>> yawn at all, or at least much less than adults?
>
>No, I think she said that they shift from the jaw clapping to yawns when
>interacting with adults. Foals yawn just like adults when it's time to
>just yawn.
Yes, thanks, exactly: I've seen it used when the submissive gestures
had been excessive for the situation ...
>Re the mare that yawned in reaction to the windfall leaves: Spot
>(Appaloosa mare, the Dilemma Mare of yore) yawns jaw-crackingly and
>non-stop when she is going into labor.
>
>Lorri
Fascinating.
Francis Burton
Cricket <ccole@quixnetnet> wrote:
>I have read that horses adapt to frightening stimuli faster than any other
>domestic animal (providing they aren't hurt, I assume they mean). Having
>owned dogs that have been terrified of thunder that never hurt them, for
>fifteen years, I'm inclined to think they are at least better than dogs.
Yes, horses desensitize to that kind of stimulus much more
rapidly than dogs (and, I suspect, many other species).
Francis
RPM1
> My curre theory is that the mandibles are used to squeeze out
> bursts of extra brain activity ...
Hmm, interesting. What the heck, I'd buy that.
My beloved mare used to yawn repeatedly when I would
approach her with the bridle (probably 10 +/- years ago
when I was doing bigDressage with her). She'd yawn and
yawn and yawn and froggy her eyes back into her head - like
she was trying to make me, and the bridle, disappear. :-\
She doesn't do it anymore. Maybe she isn't stressed. Maybe
she knows what to expect now. Maybe the way we work her
now suits her temperament. Prolly any/all of the above plus more.
Ruth CM
Peter: [watching a bag float in the wind - American Beauty spoof]
Oh, look, it's dancing with me. It's like there is some incredibly
benevolent force that wants...wants me to know there's no reason
to be afraid. Sometimes there's so much beauty in the world it
makes my heart burst.
God: It's just some trash blowing in the wind. Do you have any idea
how complicated your circulatory system is?!!
Tamara Howard
> "Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
> | Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:
>
> | > Anyway, I have seen many rank newbies that I believe are
> not
> | > exhibiting learned behavior at all, but are acting out
> | > either their fear or insecurities in an aggressive
> manner.
maybe it's like those folks who think that starting up a team of
horse involves slapping the horses with the reins as that is the
"proper" way it is done in in the Hollywood movies? I think what
little newcomers know about horses comes from TV...where it is
always a "cowboy" way of doing things...kick and jerk... hoop and
holler...wave your arms...be loud...
Tamara in TN
Phil McCrackin
> I remember from some med class somewhere that yawning is a sign of liver
> damage. Sometimes, I misremember things though.
That reminds me of a t-shirt I saw (and would have worn in the party
days of yore)..."The liver is an evil organ and must be punished." <g>
The mother of all yawners is my elder mare. When she sees me at
feeding time, her jaws open wide and twist. Tongue waaaay out and eyes
rolled back, as she nods her head, "Yes!". A pretty dramatic
statement!
Ruth Baltopoulos
| "Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@yourblinderscomcast.net>
wrote:
| > | > Anyway, I have seen many rank newbies that I believe
are
| > not
| > | > exhibiting learned behavior at all, but are acting
out
| > | > either their fear or insecurities in an aggressive
| > manner.
| maybe it's like those folks who think that starting up
a team of
| horse involves slapping the horses with the reins as that
is the
| "proper" way it is done in in the Hollywood movies? I
think what
| little newcomers know about horses comes from TV...where
it is
| always a "cowboy" way of doing things...kick and jerk...
hoop and
| holler...wave your arms...be loud...
It could very well be that. It could also be that some
people act aggressive in the face of insecurity, fear,
ignorance..... When I said that I had seen rank newbies
exhibiting aggression that I didn't feel was a learned
behavior, I was referring to their experience at whatever
stable that they were beginning their instruction at. I
hadn't even considered Hollywood :)
Ruth Baltopoulos
| "Ruth Baltopoulos" <rud...@yourblinderscomcast.net>
wrote:
Good point, well taken :)
He does not have any animals that I know of, and I don't
know him well enough to speculate on his overall treatment
of animals.
Could one instinctively react with agression in times of
fear, insecurity, ignorance, anger....? Or is this always a
learned behavior from one source or another?
Ruth Baltopoulos
| "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
| >Not really. When humans respond instinctively, we
respond as predators -
| >hence the not-atypical grasping of the reins when a horse
startles at noise
| >or the jerking of a chain to "calm" a horse or even a
direct line approach.
| >Many people kick the horse to get it moving instead of
squeezing first.
| >These aren't particularly aggressive acts.
| I wouldn't necessarily characterize these acts as
| predatory--aggressive yes, predatory no. Dominance
behaviors can be
| aggressive behaviors and aggression is not limited to
predators.
While it may not be limited to predators, I think perhaps it
could be considered a predatory behavior? Hair splitting
and all that :)
| >Yup. And horses are also born cowards, so it's easy to
ward them off
| >(mostly). We probably don't want to get into the details
of the learning
| >process. One size doesn't fit all humans or horses or
anything else, AFAIK.
| No, but we *do* know that some conditions are better
suited for more
| effective learning than others, no matter what the
learning style or
| species. Fear-based learning is not particularly
effective, and
| basing your mental training image on a predator/prey
mindset risks
| slipping into that fear-based visualization--which can
work *both*
| ways (how many times can you think of human aggression
toward horses
| which is based on fear?).
Actually, quite a few as per my previous post :) I *do*
think that humans tend to get aggressive with horses to
dominate them and 'show them who's boss' at times when they
are fearful. Hence the yanking, shanking, berating,
hitting, etc.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>This has not been my experience. In my experience, people astute
>enough about horses understand that humans *can* act like predators,
>and that *can* cause problems in horse handling - and that doesn't
>mean that's how it always works, and it isn't a self-fulfilling
>prophecy since they are smart enough to avoid it.
Experience differs.
>Then there
>are the people who DO act like predators around horses: jerky,
>loud, piercing gazes, clenching legs/butts/hands, etc etc.
>And in my experience those people are typically helped quite
>a bit and very quickly by being told how those behaviors can
>make horses nervous because they resemble a predator's behavior.
Of that list of behaviors, the only one I would classify as predatory
on its face is the gaze.
Fercrissake, don't people spend time *observing* predators before
buying into the Parelli-speak?! Or prey animals, for that matter?
Ever watched a coyote in action? A bear? The cats, big and small?
The jerky, loud predator is not the one in stalking mode. And when
the stalk changes to pursuit, the behavior begins with a lunge, not a
jerk.
jrw
Francis Burton
<rec.equestrian> wrote:
>>No, I think she said that they shift from the jaw clapping to yawns when
>>interacting with adults. Foals yawn just like adults when it's time to
>>just yawn.
>
>Yes, thanks, exactly: I've seen it used when the submissive gestures
>had been excessive for the situation ...
Aha! Now I understand what you meant - a yamming gesture that
turns into a yawn. I can't say I have seen that before, but I
will sure look out for it now.
Francis
Emily Brooks
snip
> Could one instinctively react with agression in times of
> fear, insecurity, ignorance, anger....? Or is this always a
> learned behavior from one source or another?
> --
> Ruth B -- Remove your blinders to send email :)
Fear-biting in dogs? Oh, you meant people ...
Emily
John Hasler
> While it may not be limited to predators, I think perhaps it could be
> considered a predatory behavior?
Aggression and predation are two entirely different things.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
John Hasler
> Could one instinctively react with agression in times of fear,
> insecurity, ignorance, anger....? Or is this always a learned behavior
> from one source or another?
Men often try to cover their fear with aggressive behavior. Loud, pushy
men are often frightened. Their greatest fear is that someone will realize
that they are afraid.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Ruth Baltopoulos
| Ruth B writes:
| > Could one instinctively react with aggression in times
of fear,
| > insecurity, ignorance, anger....? Or is this always a
learned behavior
| > from one source or another?
| Men often try to cover their fear with aggressive
behavior. Loud, pushy
| men are often frightened. Their greatest fear is that
someone will realize
| that they are afraid.
So glad that a man brought up the gender thing <wink> I
*have* noticed it more in males than in females......
Ruth Baltopoulos
| Ruth B writes:
| > While it may not be limited to predators, I think
perhaps it could be
| > considered a predatory behavior?
| Aggression and predation are two entirely different
things.
I bow to your superior knowledge. Haven't a clue, just
pondering :)
Claudia Wheatley
<rud...@yourblinderscomcast.net> wrote:
> | Men often try to cover their fear with aggressive
> behavior. Loud, pushy
> | men are often frightened. Their greatest fear is that
> someone will realize
> | that they are afraid.
>
> So glad that a man brought up the gender thing <wink> I
> *have* noticed it more in males than in females......
Yehbut let's concede that there are PLENTY of loud, pushy women. In
fact, it occurs to me that I might BE one.
(In my case the motivation is fear of being overlooked; I'm 5'2" with a
nice round face that makes me look like a very tired 14-year-old.)
C
Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
I had the shit til it all got smoked/I kept the promise til the vow got
broke/I had to drink from the loving cup/I stood on the bank til the river
rose up/I saw the bride in her wedding gown/I was in the house when the
house burned down. --Warren Zevon