Equus caballus (was Arab)
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Snezewort writes:
> I toddled off to the University of California Museum of Paleontology's
> website www.ucmp.berkely.edu and found ten such fossils, all from North
> America,..
I just looked at the catalog entries for these (at www.ucmp.berkeley.edu,
note spelling). One was identified by Stirton in 1939, all the others by
Savage in 1951. All consist of jaw and tooth fragments, and appear to have
been stratigraphically date by the identifiers. Not very convincing.
--
John Hasler This posting is in the public domain.
jo...@dhh.gt.org Do with it what you will.
Dancing Horse Hill Make money from it if you can; I don't mind.
Elmwood, Wisconsin Do not send email advertisements to this address.
Snezewort
Well, since there seems to be some kind of pissing contest regarding the
existence of Equus caballus in North America, and the liberrie's closed (odd
hours those librarians keep), I toddled off to the University of California
Museum of Paleontology's website
and found ten such fossils, all from North America, (California), Quarternary
period (that would be the period of last descent of the glaciers during the
Pleistocene), Irvingtonian age. When the Irvingtonian age might have been, I
know not.
Whether caballus evolved in North America and went east, or in the Old World
and came back West, I also know not. That Equus evolved in North America and
went East is I think, pretty clear by now.
Deb Hendrickson
Duluth, Minnesota -- Land of the Loons
Snez...@aol.com
Tom Stovall
In a message to all, Deb Hendrickson wrote:
re: Equus caballus evolution: Where
=Well, since there seems to be some kind of pissing contest regarding
=the existence of Equus caballus in North America, and the liberrie's
=closed (odd hours those librarians keep), I toddled off to the
=University of California Museum of Paleontology's website
=and found ten such fossils, all from North America...
Equus whatever is not Equus caballus.
[...]
=Whether caballus evolved in North America and went east, or in the Old
=World and came back West, I also know not. That Equus evolved in
=North America and went East is I think, pretty clear by now.
Equus evolution is not at issue, at issue of a specific species within
genus Equus, caballus. E. caballus evolved on the steppes of Eurasia.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
* SLMR 2.1a * When faced by a superior opponent, cheat.
kcar...@halcyon.com
In article <4d4_971...@juge.com> Tom.S...@juge.com (Tom Stovall)
writes:
> Equus evolution is not at issue, at issue of a specific species within
> genus Equus, caballus. E. caballus evolved on the steppes of Eurasia.
>
> Tom Stovall
> AFA Journeyman Farrier
> sto...@wt.net
> http://web.wt.net/~stovall
A majority of the No. American species were dead ends, as were most others
until the end of the Miocene era. There is no straight line evolution in
equus ... until Pliocene - Pliohippus is thought to have sired the entire
Old World equine family.
A *rough* visual guide - http://www.horse-country.com/media/TimeLine2.gif
Kathleen Hunt's Horse Evolution Page will clear up any questons
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses.html
See also:
Bruce J. MacFadden, Systematics, Paleobiology, and Evolution of the Family
Equidae Cambridge University Press, 1992
Frederic Brewster Loomis, The Evolution of the Horse
Marshall Jones Co., 1926
Ann Charlotte Svinhufvud, A Late Middle English Treatise on Horses
Gotab Stockholm, 1978
A.J. Butler, Sport in Classic Times
Ernest Benn Limited, London, 1930
Colin P. Groves, Horses, Asses and Zebras in the Wild
Ralph Curtis Books, 1974
George Gaylord Simpson, Horses: The Story of the Horse Family in the Modern
World and through Sixty Million Years of History
Oxford University Press, New York, 1951
Tom Stovall
In a message to all, Deb Hendrickson wrote:
re: Equus caballus. "Equus' evolution is not at issue, at issue is a
specific species within genus Equus, caballus. E. caballus evolved on
the steppes of Eurasia..." -TS
=Well, you keep saying that, although you also keep changing the mechanism
=(although my memory may be failing, but didn't this thread start out with
=you wondering how E. caballus got to the steppes of Eurasia so's the
=Mongols could ride him?)...
Sorta. I think it started when I wondered how E. caballus, a species
that evolved on steppes and was historically first domesticated on the
southern steppe, managed to make it from there to Mongolia. As Mr.
Hasler explained, domestication was most likely widespread, as was E.
caballus' distribution on the steppes.
[...]
=But leaving that aside, I haven't seen any evidence offered in support of
=this hypothesis yet...
Please read the cited material. There is no fossil evidence of modern
horses, zebras or asses in the Americas and these Equus' species evolved
about the same time.
=I did find that the Irvingtonian age was approximately 1.9 to .3
=million years ago, which places our North American E. caballus
=fossils...
To my knowledge, no scientifically accepted, E. caballus fossils of New
World origin exist. Equus is not Equus caballus.
=Wandering the net, I also discovered that, of the fossil collections
=that are searchable on-line, damn few (actually one, U of Cal. Museum
=of Paleontology) have species designations for their Equus fossils at
=all, which renders the whole affair a good deal murkier than you would
=like to pretend it is...
Not really. The taxonomic designation of organisms is determined by
similarities within a set. Unless an organism (or a fossil) meets the
criteria specific to a particular taxonomic designation (e.g., to a
species), it is not classified as belonging to that particular
designation, whatever it might be. On the other hand, an organism (or
fossil fragment thereof) might meet the criteria for another, less
specific, classification within a particular group (e.g., within a
genus).
A person's name might be Joe Smith. This designation means that,
unique among Smiths, he is a Joe. It implies that he has kinsmen named
Smith, but does not imply that those kinsmen have those specific
characteristics which render this particular Smith a Joe.
One cannot say, "New World Equus fossils exist, therefore Equus caballus
existed in the New World", because, while fossil evidence of Equus is
plentiful, no scientifically accepted evidence of E. caballus has been
found in the New World.
Equus is a genus. Caballus is a species within genus Equus. The terms
are not interchangeable.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
* SLMR 2.1a * Katy, Texas: Rice, cattle and humongous mosquitos...
Snezewort
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler) says of the E. caballus fossils I found on the
web:
>I just looked at the catalog entries for these (at www.ucmp.berkeley.edu,
>note spelling). One was identified by Stirton in 1939, all the others by
>Savage in 1951. All consist of jaw and tooth fragments, and appear to have
>been stratigraphically date by the identifiers. Not very convincing.
Convincing of what? The assertion was made, and repeatedly, that there are no
E. caballus fossils found in North America. Apparently there are, from the
Irvingtonian age of the Quarternary era of the Pleistocene (1.9-.3 million
years ago).
Teeth and jaws are what are usually used for species identification, and are
especially useful in horses, and fragments are the way fossils are usually
found. Stratigraphically is the way fossils are initially dated. The Florida
Museum of Natural History has a nice, if somewhat dumbed down, website on this
(read through the back issues of Pony Express (edited by Bruce J. McFadden, one
of, if not _the_, leading authorities on horse evolution) for more and better
info):
www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/fhc.htm
Other on--line collections of Equus fossils have no species idenitifiers at
all, they just show "Equus", no species.
It follows from all this that the broad claim that E. caballus did not exist in
North America prior to the Spanish importation lacks evidentiary support, and
that there is evidence of E. caballus present in North America at least 300,000
years ago.
I've never encountered any statement that E. caballus appeared at any given
time period or in any given place, other than the now disproved hypothesis that
caballus descended from E. caballus przewalskii. I don't think the folks that
do this type of work know, or particularly trouble themselve over the question.
He was widely distributed over his range, and there is some evidence that that
range included North America.
There are lots and lots of Equus fossils in North America. No doubt a complete
examination of them to attempt to give species designations would prove
interesting. There is one survey of Equus fossils in North America cited by
Kathleen Hunt:
Winans, M.C. A quantitative study of North American fossil species of the genus
Equus.
I haven't been able to check the university library to see what it might say.
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Snezewort writes:
> Convincing of what? The assertion was made, and repeatedly, that there
> are no E. caballus fossils found in North America. Apparently there are,
> from the Irvingtonian age of the Quarternary era of the Pleistocene
> (1.9-.3 million years ago).
No, apparently there are two people who claim to have found such fossils.
The catalog entries amount to the unsupported word of Stirton and Savage.
Of the many publications on the subject since, how many cited them? Who
has examined those fossils and arrived at the same conclusions? If they
were generally accepted in the field they would be famous. Are they?
> Teeth and jaws are what are usually used for species identification,...
Not so much because they are best as because they are common.
> ...and fragments are the way fossils are usually found.
Which is one reason why the exact species of a fossil is often a matter of
opinion.
> Stratigraphically is the way fossils are initially dated.
And it is often unreliable. What is the radiological date for these
fossils?
> Other on--line collections of Equus fossils have no species idenitifiers
> at all, they just show "Equus", no species.
Which merely indicates uncertainty as to which North American Equus species
they belong in.
> It follows from all this that the broad claim that E. caballus did not
> exist in North America prior to the Spanish importation lacks evidentiary
> support,...
Yes, it is hard to prove a negative, isn't it?
> ...and that there is evidence of E. caballus present in North America at
> least 300,000 years ago.
Very thin evidence. Somewhere here in Wisconsin is a Equus Caballus skull
cataloged as having been found in a burial mound: evidence of pre-Spanish
domestication?
> I've never encountered any statement that E. caballus appeared at any
> given time period or in any given place, other than the now disproved
> hypothesis that caballus descended from E. caballus przewalskii.
I'm quite sure I was taught that caballus arose in Eurasia, but I can't
give any citations for that. I would prefer to make domestication an
essential characteristic of caballus, which would make him of Eurasian
origin unless the most radical theories are admitted, but I don't think
that is the general view.
I don't have Tom's aversion to the idea of caballus in N.A.: I just don't
see the evidence. In fact, I would be pleased to see the above mentioned
radical theories prove out. Not likely, though.
Snezewort
Tom.S...@juge.com (Tom Stovall) says:
>To my knowledge, no scientifically accepted, E. caballus fossils of New
>World origin exist. Equus is not Equus caballus.
Best advise U. Cal. Museum of Paleontology that their E. caballus fossils
aren't scientifically accepted (dated late Quartenary, Irvingtonian age,
aproximately 1.9-.3 million years ago). Hate to see them continue to make
fools of themselves that way. ;-)
Regarding the lack of species designation for the majority of Equus fossils I
could track down on the net, and the cloud it places on your claims, you say:
>Not really. The taxonomic designation of organisms is determined by
>similarities within a set. Unless an organism (or a fossil) meets the
>criteria specific to a particular taxonomic designation (e.g., to a
>species), it is not classified as belonging to that particular
>designation, whatever it might be. On the other hand, an organism (or
>fossil fragment thereof) might meet the criteria for another, less
>specific, classification within a particular group (e.g., within a
>genus).
Or, more likely, it simply hasn't been classified yet. Species-level
designations are not so clear-cut as you are pretending, nor are they always
free from controversy, even when looking at living organisms.
What it means is, we don't know what species those Equus fossils are yet.
>One cannot say, "New World Equus fossils exist, therefore Equus caballus
>existed in the New World"
Never said that. Said that you haven't offered any evidence, other than your
own say-so, for the origin of caballus on the steppes of Russia, after you
moved 'em northeast from Turkemenistan.
Said even in the absence of specific evidence, it makes more sense for caballus
to have spread westward with the great Equus radiation than for a single
species to have radiated back eastward.
Eastward radiation of equus also fits with the pattern of speciation -- in a
widely distributed species, speciation tends to occur at the outer fringes of
the range, not in the center. Thus, zebras, asses, and quaggas are (or were)
found in Africa, north Africa and around the Mediterranean -- the far edges of
the Equus radiation.
At the Florida Museum of Natural History website, there is reference to three
general lines of Equus, Caballine (caballus and close relatives), zebrine
(zebras) and the asses (and I'm not recalling the term right now). Not much
direct species designation. They have a large collection of Equus fossils,
none with a species designator attached.
>, because, while fossil evidence of Equus is
>plentiful, no scientifically accepted evidence of E. caballus has been
>found in the New World.
Again, that'll be news to the folks at Berkely.
>Equus is a genus. Caballus is a species within genus Equus. The >terms are not
interchangeable.
But they are often used so by the horse evolutionists, for the reason that
horses show great diversity depending on local conditions. Designating a
variant as a unique species, when looking only at bones, is a dicey business at
best, and with horses, it gets even dicier.
Various folks have claimed, over the years, that, for example, "true ponies",
draft horses, arab types, and the "great horse" of Europe should be designated
as separate species, or at least subspecies, based on their present variation
(or on the much smaller amount of variation existing in the fossil record).
Lots of folks still cling to this view, with European warmblood breeders going
so far as to maintain that their heavy crossbreds' "talent" for dressage is due
to the fact that they are a subspecies.
It seems likely that a party coming to the question cold, and not knowing the
historical origins of these animals, might well classify them as separate
species. A party coming to the question cold, and not knowing the history,
would likely classify Chihuahas and Saint Bernards as separate species as well.
The paleontolgist, coming on an Equus fossil at a new dig, is coming to the
question "cold" because she doesn't know the history of how that equid came to
be dead at that particular place at that particular point in time. The
probability is that errors are made on the side of multiplying species. There
are ten or so (probably more, I didn't count 'em) Equus species listed at the
U. Cal. Museum of Paleontology website. Many are named for the site at which
they were discovered. Further research may lead to a paring down of species
designations, or it may lead to an increased number of them. Who knows?
Matthew & Kathy Hoover
In article <87iutjjf...@dhh.gt.org>, jo...@dhh.gt.org says...
>
> Very thin evidence. Somewhere here in Wisconsin is a Equus Caballus skull
> cataloged as having been found in a burial mound: evidence of pre-Spanish
> domestication?
More than likely, evidence of the horse being used for food....early
native North Americans have left no physical evidence of domestication
for riding or burden bearing and may have played a role in the extinction
of caballus in N.A. through overhunting. When the Spanish re-introduced
the horse in what is now Mexico and the Caribbean, the natives thought
they were two-headed gods...they had never seen anyone on the back
of any animal so deliberately and with such ease...they were afraid
of the 'monster' animal until they discovered that they were really
only men on the backs of what they soon realized were VERY useful
animals.
> > I've never encountered any statement that E. caballus appeared at any
> > given time period or in any given place, other than the now disproved
> > hypothesis that caballus descended from E. caballus przewalskii.
>
> I'm quite sure I was taught that caballus arose in Eurasia, but I can't
> give any citations for that. I would prefer to make domestication an
> essential characteristic of caballus, which would make him of Eurasian
> origin unless the most radical theories are admitted, but I don't think
> that is the general view.
I think maybe the point should be made that while the ancestors of
E.caballus migrated to Eurasia across the Bering Lowlands (now the
Bering Sea) and continued to evolve along the way and after arrival
(as did caballus' cousins asinus and zebra in their ultimate
destinations) Equus itself did evolve in North America beginning 2
million years ago.
Remember the continents were migrating too.....western N.A. and eastern
Asia were one vast plain with no ocean barriers to keep species
isolated.
It's the old chicken and egg argument...both sides are right to a
certain extent. Domestication for something other than food is
generally accepted to have occurred in Eurasia for E.caballus,
probably in a wide range of locations. At the time E.caballus
probably looked a lot like Przewalski's Horse, but humans immediately
began to selectively breed caballus for desired characteristics,
including color, size, strength, and endurance, as well as speed.
The process continues to this day, with the results being seen in
the numerous 'breeds' from Shire to Shetland...all of which still
remain caballus.
> I don't have Tom's aversion to the idea of caballus in N.A.: I just don't
> see the evidence. In fact, I would be pleased to see the above mentioned
> radical theories prove out. Not likely, though.
> John Hasler
We can all believe what we want (the scientific world could care less
what we think anyway), but science will prove out in the long run...
when all the evidence is in. It is fun speculating, though!
Kathy Hoover
CMNewell
On 24 Nov 1997 04:21:37 GMT, snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>... A party coming to the question cold, and not knowing the history,
>would likely classify Chihuahas and Saint Bernards as separate species as well.
Umm, they *are*. Ask any DVM. The chihuahua is taxonomically
most closely related to the vampire bat. It is a flightless species.
To make up for the flightlessness, it has a nastier attitiude than a
vampire.
Common knowledge. I'm surprised to see anyone mistake it for a
member of genus Canis.
--CMNewell, DVM
(Ob horsey: we had 2 afternoons of horse lab at the IVAS course. It's
finally beginning to sink in--the points are really there, and the
response of the demo horse was impressive--so uncomfortable he nearly
ate Dr. Ridgeway on Day 1, and looking *much* more mellow at the
second session, though sensitive points were still there.)
Snezewort
jo...@dhh.gt.org saysof U. Cal. University of Paleontology's E. caballus
fossils:
>No, apparently there are two people who claim to have found >such fossils.
Hardly. The fossils are so listed in the catalog of a major paleontological
research institution associated with a leading American university (UC
Berkely). All fossils listed in this catalog are either "type" (reference)
fossils, or are published, according to the headnote of the on-line catalog.
These fossils are published.
If Berkeley's comfortable with the classification, I'm in no position to
question their expertise.
>The catalog entries amount to the unsupported word of Stirton >and Savage.
Hardly. See above. Reclassification of specimens is not unusual.
>Who has examined those fossils and arrived at the same >conclusions?
I found these fossils referenced again at another website under different
species names. Apparently Winans classified them differently. Also
apparently, UC Berkely did not accept Winans' reclassification. Whether Winans
actually looked at them I know not. I don't have access to his book.
>If they were generally accepted in the field they would be >famous. Are they?
Your basis for saying this is?
I said:
>> Teeth and jaws are what are usually used for species identification,...
>
>Not so much because they are best as because they are common.
No, because in most species, teeth and jaws provide the primary species'
identification. Partiularly true in horses, in which caballines, zebrines, and
asses have distinctive molar grooves. Check out the Florida Museum of Natural
History website for some interesting discussions of teeth.
>I don't have Tom's aversion to the idea of caballus in N.A.: I just don't
>see the evidence. In fact, I would be pleased to see the above mentioned
>radical theories prove out. Not likely, though.
I'm looking forward to reading Dr. McFadden's book, which is now out in
paperback for a good deal less than the $80.00 quoted for the hardcover. In
the meantime, at least one group of experts is of the the opinion that E.
caballus originated in North America. The following is from the Natural
History Museum of Florence:
"Pliocene
The genus Equus appeared in early Pliocene of Northern America; around
2.5 My ago it dispersed to Asia ( E. sanmeniensis, E. sivalensis, E.
namadicus ), Europe (E. stenonis, E. livenzovensis ) and then Africa (
E. koobiforensis ). A later invasion brought to Eurasia E. hemionus and
E. caballus. "
http://www.unifi.it/unifi/msn/geopal/route/equi_eng.htm
Doesn't prove anything, but indicates that the issue is not so closed as some
would like to pretend.
>I'm quite sure I was taught that caballus arose in Eurasia, but I >can't give
any citations for that.
I ran across a highly novel theory (at least I'd never seen it before) at the
University of Alberta website, apparently still being taught, to the effect
that Equus arose from some critter called Dicohippus, probably in Eurasia, in
the Pliocene, all North American equids being extent, and that Equus then
radiated back into the Americas.
The oldest Equus fossils are, from what I understand, all in the Americas, so
this lineage is more than a little out of date.
kcar...@halcyon.com
In article <65c5hn$92q$1...@gte2.gte.net> mhoo...@gte.net (Matthew & Kathy
> I think maybe the point should be made that while the ancestors of
> E.caballus migrated to Eurasia across the Bering Lowlands (now the
> Bering Sea) and continued to evolve along the way and after arrival
> (as did caballus' cousins asinus and zebra in their ultimate
> destinations) Equus itself did evolve in North America beginning 2
> million years ago.
It would be foolish to make this point without additional facts or research
since it directly contridicts the literature.
Kris C.
jo...@dhh.gt.org
I wrote:
> Somewhere here in Wisconsin is a Equus Caballus skull cataloged as having
> been found in a burial mound: evidence of pre-Spanish domestication?
Kathy Hoover writes:
> More than likely, evidence of the horse being used for food...
Actually the consensus seems to be that it is evidence of fraud.
> When the Spanish re-introduced the horse in what is now Mexico and the
> Caribbean, the natives thought they were two-headed gods..
Or so the Spaniards said, anyway. Horses could have been in use in NA
while absent from Mexico. They don't do well in the tropics.
> Remember the continents were migrating too.....western N.A. and eastern
> Asia were one vast plain with no ocean barriers to keep species isolated.
Continents don't move that fast. The Bering Strait land bridge was due to
glaciation, not plate tectonics.
> We can all believe what we want...
But we would be well advised to restrict ourselves to believing that which
has a high probability of being true.
> the scientific world could care less what we think anyway
Their is no seperate scientific world. Scientists live on the same planet
as the rest of the human race.
lit...@koan.com
CMNewell wrote:
ROTFLMAO
When I was a kid my mom told me chihuahua hunted in packs in Mexico. I believed it
until I grew up. She told me that they traveled in packs and could bring down a
donkey or a cow. I had visions of a feral Chihuahua hanging by it's teeth off the
nose of unsuspecting livestock. I am glad to say that I was able to provide hours
of entertainment relating pack-attack stories to friends and aquaintances.
Chris
John T. Klausner
Brings to mind the expression "rat packs"...
SueK
Patricia Schwalm
CMNewell (res...@deyr.ultranet.com) wrote:
: On 24 Nov 1997 04:21:37 GMT, snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
: >... A party coming to the question cold, and not knowing the history,
: >would likely classify Chihuahas and Saint Bernards as separate species as well.
:
: Umm, they *are*. Ask any DVM. The chihuahua is taxonomically
: most closely related to the vampire bat. It is a flightless species.
: To make up for the flightlessness, it has a nastier attitiude than a
: vampire.
Now, now, Charlotte. ;-) I consider myself a functional morphologist
and have found this thread most interesting; I know nothing about
horse evolution, but have my doubts about anuran systematics, having
studied with *the experts*. I'm rather leaning towards alien
invasions of North America, and other continents. 8-)
Patty Schwalm, once again flaunting her Ph.D. But posting
from a math dept. account ;-)
Snezewort
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (CMNewell) says of the St. Bernard and Chihuaha being
different species:
> Umm, they *are*. Ask any DVM. The chihuahua is taxonomically
>most closely related to the vampire bat. It is a flightless species.
>To make up for the flightlessness, it has a nastier attitiude than a
>vampire.
>member of genus Canis.
> --CMNewell, DVM
My mistake. You're right, of course. I'd long suspected as much, especially
given their high-pitched vocalizations. But the economic power of the
Chihuaha fanciers has assured that the beasts true nature remains hidden from
all but their victims.
OBhorsey: Ted has become more relaxed, which, in a way known only to
Anglo-Arabs, has translated into the occasional (alright, already, almost
daily) sideways levitation.
I've discovered that my seat is not so secure on the right, and that I'm
probably one of those screwy A-rab people because I think this is really funny.
I know, I know, laughing just encourages 'em. I promise to be more stern-like
in future. ;-)
Tom Stovall
In a message to all, Deb Hendrickson wrote:
re: Fossils. "To my knowledge, no scientifically accepted, E. caballus
fossils of New World origin exist. Equus is not Equus caballus..." -TS
=Best advise U. Cal. Museum of Paleontology that their E. caballus
=fossils aren't scientifically accepted (dated late Quartenary,
=Irvingtonian age, aproximately 1.9-.3 million years ago). Hate to see
=them continue to make fools of themselves that way. ;-)
No problem, it's fairly common for universities to make mistakes or to
make claims that won't withstand scientific scrutiny. Remember the
Piltdown Man?
=Regarding the lack of species designation for the majority of Equus
=fossils I could track down on the net, and the cloud it places on your
=claims, you say:
"The taxonomic designation of organisms is determined by
similarities within a set. Unless an organism (or a fossil)
meets the criteria specific to a particular taxonomic
designation (e.g., to a species), it is not classified as
belonging to that particular designation, whatever it might be.
On the other hand, an organism (or fossil fragment thereof)
might meet the criteria for another, less specific,
classification within a particular group (e.g., within a
genus)..." -TS
=Or, more likely, it simply hasn't been classified yet...
No ma'am. A thing can meet the criteria necessary to be classified within
a genus and not exhibit enough characteristics of any particular species
to be classified as such.
=Species-level designations are not so clear-cut as you are pretending,
=nor are they always free from controversy, even when looking at living
=organisms...
You digress. At issue is E. caballus, a species readily distinguished
from its ancestors.
=What it means is, we don't know what species those Equus fossils are
=yet...
Not knowing does not imply they are E. caballus.
re: One cannot say, "New World Equus fossils exist, therefore Equus
caballus existed in the New World"...-TS
=Never said that...
You have argued that E. caballus must have existed in the New World
prior to the Spanish import on the basis of the presence of Equus
fossils in the Americas, a demonstrably specious argument. (Genera ain't
species.)
=Said that you haven't offered any evidence, other than your own
=say-so, for the origin of caballus on the steppes of Russia...
Please try to read for comprehension: I said "Eurasia", not "Russia"
(there's a difference). Additionally, I posted several cites in
support of my arguments, including the URL to Kathleen Hunt's excellent
paper, "Horse Evolution", which has 25 or so. In case you missed it,
it's:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses.html
=after you moved 'em northeast from Turkemenistan...
Again, please try to read for comprehension: I wrote that E. caballus
was first domesticated in what is now Turkmenistan. "Domesticated"
differs considerably from "evolved".
=Said even in the absence of specific evidence, it makes more sense for
=caballus to have spread westward with the great Equus radiation than
=for a single species to have radiated back eastward...
The steppe is a vast, semi-arid grassland that runs roughly from the
North Sea to the Central Siberian Plateau. Unfortunately for your
arguments, that vast area also contains a great deal of fossil evidence
indicating the presence of E. caballus. Small it ain't.
=Eastward radiation of equus also fits with the pattern of speciation --
=in a widely distributed species, speciation tends to occur at the outer
=fringes of the range, not in the center...
Really? Please explain the presence of three distinct species of sub-
Saharan species of zebras, all of which exist in a range that has less
than a fifth the area of the steppes.
[...]
re: "While fossil evidence of Equus is plentiful, no scientifically
accepted evidence of E. caballus has been found in the New World..." -TS
=Again, that'll be news to the folks at Berkely.
No ma'am, a claim is one thing (scientific or otherwise), acceptance of
claims is quite another. If a proposition is to be accepted by the
scientific community, then it's usually published for peer review. When
the folks who allegedly found the so-called "caballus" fragment get
around to publishing a paper in a discipline-specific journal detailing
their find of a pre-Columbian E. caballus fossil and have it accepted by
science, then it can be said to be "news"; until then, it's just
conjecture.
Hell, there's some folks who claim that a complete E. caballus skull
allegedly found in a pre-Columbian Indian burial mound is indicative of
the E. caballus' presence in the New World before the Spaniards. In view
of a complete lack of similar fossil evidence in other mounds of the
same period, it's most likely a plant. One day, they'll get around to
dating it; until then, its authenticity remains extremely suspect.
re: "Equus is a genus. Caballus is a species within genus Equus. The
terms are not interchangeable..." -TS
=But they are often used so by the horse evolutionists, for the reason
=that horses show great diversity depending on local conditions...
An error made often is no less an error. "Genus" is still not synonymous
with "species".
=Various folks have claimed...
This is not about the claims of "various folks", this is about a lack
of evidence supporting your claim that E. caballus evolved in the New
World.
=It seems likely that a party coming to the question cold, and not
=knowing the historical origins of these animals, might well classify
=them as separate species...
No ma'am, no competent taxonomist would make that mistake.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
* SLMR 2.1a * Never trust a farrier when his lips are moving...
JRDVMDIVER
In article <34799ebd...@news.ma.ultranet.com>, res...@deyr.ultranet.com
(CMNewell) writes:
>On 24 Nov 1997 04:21:37 GMT, snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>... A
>party coming to the question cold, and not knowing the history,
>would likely
>classify Chihuahas and Saint Bernards as separate species as well.
Umm,
>they *are*. Ask any DVM. The chihuahua is taxonomically
most closely related
>to the vampire bat. It is a flightless species.
To make up for the
>flightlessness, it has a nastier attitiude than a
vampire.
Common
>knowledge. I'm surprised to see anyone mistake it for a
member of genus
>Canis.
--CMNewell, DVM
Wait a second, I thought Chihuahua's were pirhanas???
Sounds like the acupuncture course is going well?
Good Luck
IMHO, All Standard Disclaimers Apply
Julie A. Robinson DVM, MVSc, MS, Dipl. ABVP (Equine)
JRDVM...@aol.com
CMNewell
On 25 Nov 1997 05:38:17 GMT, jrdvm...@aol.com (JRDVMDIVER) wrote:
>
>Wait a second, I thought Chihuahua's were pirhanas???
>
>Sounds like the acupuncture course is going well?
The juxtaposition of these two phrases just gave me an idea--I
wonder if one could apply Chihuahuas to acupunture points for
prolonged stimulation?
--CMN, DVM
(it is going well. Fascinating. I needled my vet-phobic Irish setter
yesterday, and she didn't mind at all...)
Bishop of Vengeance
CMNewell <res...@deyr.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Umm, they *are*. Ask any DVM. The chihuahua is taxonomically
> most closely related to the vampire bat. It is a flightless species.
> To make up for the flightlessness, it has a nastier attitiude than a
> vampire.
> Common knowledge. I'm surprised to see anyone mistake it for a
> member of genus Canis.
> --CMNewell, DVM
I always knew there was something wrong with chihuahua. It's the only dog
I hate. The only chihuahua I've ever liked was the one from "Lady and the
Tramp."
*****************************************************************************
Bishop of Vengeance * Horseman of War * rfin...@rli-net.net
****************************************************************************
accounts owned and operated by Rebecca A. Findley
Ye Olde Mean Vile & Evil Muleskinner
CMNewell wrote:
>JRDVMDIVER wrote:
>>Wait a second, I thought Chihuahua's were pirhanas???
>>
>>Sounds like the acupuncture course is going well?
> The juxtaposition of these two phrases just gave me an idea--I
>wonder if one could apply Chihuahuas to acupunture points for
>prolonged stimulation?
> --CMN, DVM
>(it is going well. Fascinating. I needled my vet-phobic Irish setter
>yesterday, and she didn't mind at all...)
I think everyone can use a good needling now and then.
Gorilla gets loose from the zoo, guy finds it in the
tree in his yard. He calls the authorities, who send
in someone to catch it. The person shows up with a
shotgun, a big stick, handcuffs, and a Chihuahua.
The guy can't resist, and steps out to ask the person
how he plans to get the ape. The person responds that
he'll climb the tree, knock the gorilla down with the
big stick, whereupon the Chihuahua will leap to bite
the ape's privates, and when the gorilla crosses his
hands over his crotch, he gets handcuffed.
The guy asks what the shotgun is for, and the person
explains it's in case =he= falls out of the tree,
to shoot the Chihuahua.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/sci.math/chanquayherm/53jddq$c...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
JRDVMDIVER
In article <Y4He.4$Pc.4...@news.sgi.net>, ro...@your.innate.potentialities (Ye
Olde Mean Vile & Evil Muleskinner) writes:
>CMNewell wrote:
>JRDVMDIVER wrote:
>>Wait a second, I thought Chihuahua's
>were pirhanas???
>>
>>Sounds like the acupuncture course is going
>well?
> The juxtaposition of these two phrases just gave me an
>idea--I
>wonder if one could apply Chihuahuas to acupunture points
>for
>prolonged stimulation?
> --CMN, DVM
LOL, good idea!!! Hadn't considered that when I made the post... could attach
a Chihuahua to the colic points on colics and the EPM points on EPMs <G> ;-)
Snezewort
Tom.S...@juge.com (Tom Stovall) says of the E. caballus fossils at Berkely:
>No problem, it's fairly common for universities to make mistakes or to
>make claims that won't withstand scientific scrutiny. Remember the
>Piltdown Man?
And more likely that they're mstaken than that you are, eh? ;-)
Another mistaken bunch of paleontologists can be found at the Illinois State
Museum, which is working on a project called "Faunmap" a searchable database
intended to map the locations of all known species of North American mammals
over the last 110,000 years. A search on Equus caballus, period
Wisconsin,(10-110 thousand years ago) turned up a specimen in southeast Nevada.
http://www2.museum.state.il.us/research/faunmap/
What fools these scientists be.
You said:
> "The taxonomic designation of organisms is determined by
> similarities within a set. Unless an organism (or a fossil)
> meets the criteria specific to a particular taxonomic
> designation (e.g., to a species), it is not classified as
> belonging to that particular designation, whatever it might >be.
And if it doesn't fit a known species, it's either tentatively classified to
the closest known species or declared a new one and given a species
designation. Unless no one's gotten around to doing it yet. E.g., "Equus
leisey" the first fully articulated Equus fossil found in the Americas, and
named for the place where it got dug up.
>You digress. At issue is E. caballus, a species readily distinguished
>from its ancestors.
Then one has to wonder about these mistakenly classified fossils from North
America.
>Not knowing does not imply they are E. caballus.
Not knowing equally doesn't imply that they are not. Not knowing means we
don't know. Period.
>You have argued that E. caballus must have existed in the New World
>prior to the Spanish import on the basis of the presence of Equus
>fossils in the Americas, a demonstrably specious argument. (Genera ain't
>species.)
Actually, that ain't an argument, it's a question of fact. Fact is, there's
some fossils collected in North America prior to the great extinction that are
classified as E. caballus by them as do this kind of stuff and therefore know
more than you or me. You may not like the facts, they may make you
uncomfortable, but you can't change 'em by waving your hands and calling them
specious.
>I posted several cites in
>support of my arguments, including the URL to Kathleen Hunt's excellent
>paper, "Horse Evolution", which has 25 or so. In case you missed it,
>it's:
I read Ms. Hunt's paper. It says not one word regarding the origins of the
species Equus caballus. It's very interesting. There's been a lot of changes
in the views of later equine evolution since the books I've been reading were
published, and I'm looking forward to reading Dr. McFadden's latest book.
I've also read a very recent essay on equine evolution in "The Horse Through
Time" (Olsen, Sandra, ed.), where once again there was no discussion of the
specific origins of E. caballus, but some very intesting new info regarding the
interrelationships of caballus and przewalskii, and on the "primeval type"
hypothesis.
>The steppe is a vast, semi-arid grassland that runs roughly from the
>North Sea to the Central Siberian Plateau. Unfortunately for your
>arguments, that vast area also contains a great deal of fossil evidence
>indicating the presence of E. caballus. Small it ain't.
Extensively studied it aint' either. One would expect a large number of E.
caballus fossils throughout Europe, Asia and North Africa, as it ranged
throughout that area for a long time. The question posed from an evolutionary
standpoint is: how old are the oldest fossils and where are they?
>Really? Please explain the presence of three distinct species of sub-
>Saharan species of zebras, all of which exist in a range that has less
>than a fifth the area of the steppes.
Zebras would be at the outer fringe of the range. The area in which zebras
evolved is far more broken up than the steppe, more varied ecosystems lead to
greater speciation. Evolution 101.
I've encountered the theory that the zebra is descended from one of the early
Ice Age radiations of Equus (the last of the Ice Ages went on for about 4
million years) and were geographically isolated by a later descent of the ice
sheets, giving them a longer period to speciate in as well.
>No ma'am, a claim is one thing (scientific or otherwise), acceptance of
>claims is quite another. If a proposition is to be accepted by the
>scientific community, then it's usually published for peer review.
All fossils listed in the Berkely catalog are either type (reference) fossils
or are otherwise published. These fossils are published. You can order the
monograph from the Museum. There's a document number on the catalog entry.
>When
>the folks who allegedly found the so-called "caballus" fragment get
>around to publishing a paper in a discipline-specific journal detailing
>their find of a pre-Columbian E. caballus fossil and have it accepted by
>science, then it can be said to be "news"; until then, it's just
>conjecture.
They did publish. See above. And the fossils are in the collection for any
interested researcher to look at. Not to mention the fact that folks who put
the catalog together and maintain the collection have 'em listed as "Equus
caballus" for all the world to see. Or are the paleontologists at Berkely not
scientists?
(oh, that's right, they can't be, they're from California. ;-)
How much more publishing do they need to do?
>This is not about the claims of "various folks", this is about a lack
>of evidence supporting your claim that E. caballus evolved in the >New World.
I have never made that claim. I don't know and I don't pretend to know.
However, dabbling the shallows of this subject over the past week or so, I have
found a number of people who have made that claim, including the Museum of
Natural History in Florence and source (whatever it was, he gives us no
bibliography) for the "evolution" entry in Elwyn Hartly Edwards' most recent
edition of "Encyclopedia of the Horse" Now Mr. Edward's ain't authoritative,
he's a popluarizer, but he got that info someplace.
It may well be that there is disagreement in the scientifc community on this
issue. Quite all right. One can plump for one's favorite theory in that case,
and my quarter's behind the "evolved in North America" theory. I have my
fossils, and they're old enoug, so I'm not coming out of right field here
(being a lefty, I'm eternally coming out of left field).
On the reaction of a taxonomist, unfamiliar with the history of dog breeding,
to the discovery of a Chihuaha and a St. Bernard and placing them in different
species:
>No ma'am, no competent taxonomist would make that mistake.
No? They meet the biological definition: they don't interbreed. They meet the
physcial definition: they have strikingly different characteristics. They meet
the geographic definition: they evolved in completely different environments.
And they even meet the cladistic defintion, having followed completely
different evolutionary paths.
You're definition of "competent taxonomist" must include the ability to
mind-read. The only reason we put Chihuaha and St. Bernard into the species
Canis familiaris is cause we know where they came from.
Darwin made the same observation about pigeon breeds in Chapter 1 of the
"Origin'. But then again, maybe he doesn't qualify as a "competent
taxonomist." ;-)
Tom Stovall
In a message to all, Snezewort wrote:
re: Equus caballus. "It's fairly common for universities to make
mistakes or to make claims that won't withstand scientific scrutiny.
Remember the Piltdown Man?..." -TS
=And more likely that they're mstaken than that you are, eh? ;-)
I have a great respect for academics, but they can be just as wrong as
anyone else.
=Another mistaken bunch of paleontologists can be found at the Illinois
=State Museum... A search on Equus caballus, period Wisconsin,(10-110
=thousand years ago) turned up a specimen in southeast Nevada...
"A", as in one? Of course, they couldn't possibly be mistaken.
Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it: Equus whatever left evidence of it's
passage from Patagonia to Alaska; yet, the folks who have caballus
evolving in the New World have only managed to turn up [n] fossils of
questionable classification and/or origin.
=What fools these scientists be.
You said that, not me. Those I know are just folks.
re: "At issue is E. caballus, a species readily distinguished from its
ancestors..." -TS
=Then one has to wonder about these mistakenly classified fossils from North
=America.
That would depend on which particular portion of the late lamented one
was attempting to use for classification.
re: "You have argued that E. caballus must have existed in the New World
prior to the Spanish import on the basis of the presence of Equus
fossils in the Americas, a demonstrably specious argument..." -TS
=Actually, that ain't an argument, it's a question of fact...
No ma'am, it's a question of claims, not facts.
=Fact is, there's some fossils collected in North America prior to the
=great extinction that are classified as E. caballus by them as do this
=kind of stuff and therefore know more than you or me...
That these folks are smarter than me is a foregone conclusion; that they
are smarter than their peers is not. The fact is that claims of pre-
columbian E. caballus fossils in the New World have not been accepted by
a whole bunch of folks who are also smarter'n me.
=You may not like the facts...
Facts are facts; claims are not. I like facts.
=I read Ms. Hunt's paper. It says not one word regarding the origins of the
=species Equus caballus...
Plenty of stuff on the origin, but no specific *place* of origin.
re: "The steppe is a vast, semi-arid grassland that runs roughly from
the North Sea to the Central Siberian Plateau. Unfortunately for your
arguments, that vast area also contains a great deal of fossil
evidence indicating the presence of E. caballus. Small it ain't.
=Extensively studied it aint' either. One would expect a large number of E.
=caballus fossils throughout Europe, Asia and North Africa, as it ranged
=throughout that area for a long time...
For a place that hasn't been studied, there seems to exist a great deal
of evidence of E. caballus presence in the Old World. Everything from
cave paintings to fossil evidence out the wazoo. Literally, tons and
tons of fossil evidence.
re: "A claim is one thing (scientific or otherwise), acceptance of
=>claims is quite another. If a proposition is to be accepted by the
=>scientific community, then it's usually published for peer
review..." -TS
=All fossils listed in the Berkely catalog are either type (reference)
=fossils or are otherwise published...
Publication allow ones peers to criticize one's findings. For some
reason, a bunch of them dumb bastards that are smarter than me still
don't accept them as relics of E. caballus.
re: "When the folks who allegedly found the so-called "caballus"
fragment get around to publishing a paper in a discipline-specific
journal detailing their find of a pre-Columbian E. caballus fossil and
have it accepted by science, then it can be said to be "news"; until
then, it's just conjecture..." -TS
[...]
=It may well be that there is disagreement in the scientifc community
=on this issue. Quite all right. One can plump for one's favorite
=theory in that case, and my quarter's behind the "evolved in North
=America" theory. I have my fossils, and they're old enoug, so I'm not
=coming out of right field here (being a lefty, I'm eternally coming out
=of left field)...
Fair enough. When mainstream science accepts the fossils as evidence of
E. caballus evolution in the New World, I will too. But, in truth, it
will be difficult, given the lack of evidence. If E. caballus evolved in
the New World, what happened to the evidence of his passing? We have,
literally, tons of E. caballus fossil remains in Europe and Asia; here,
we have, allegedly (!), a few fragments.
And, the ol' dog-ate-my-horsebones business won't work: according to
Ms. Hunt, after Dinohippus, the first Equus were three species
called "simple Equus", known collectively as simplicidens. These, in
turn, gave rise to 12 Equus species in the New World and all of them
left evidence of their passing. Tons of evidence.
All but E. caballus.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
* SLMR 2.1a * Trust in a benevolent god - but tie your camel well!
Matthew & Kathy Hoover
In article <87sosmi5...@dhh.gt.org>, jo...@dhh.gt.org says...
> I wrote:
> > Somewhere here in Wisconsin is a Equus Caballus skull cataloged as having
> > been found in a burial mound: evidence of pre-Spanish domestication?
>
> Kathy Hoover writes:
> > More than likely, evidence of the horse being used for food...
>
> Actually the consensus seems to be that it is evidence of fraud.
I had heard that later.....
>
> > When the Spanish re-introduced the horse in what is now Mexico and the
> > Caribbean, the natives thought they were two-headed gods..
>
> Or so the Spaniards said, anyway. Horses could have been in use in NA
> while absent from Mexico. They don't do well in the tropics.
There is no evidence of E.caballus domestication (physical or cultural)
in North or South America prior to European contact. They 'could have'
been used, but there is no evidence for it.
> > Remember the continents were migrating too.....western N.A. and eastern
> > Asia were one vast plain with no ocean barriers to keep species isolated.
>
> Continents don't move that fast. The Bering Strait land bridge was due to
> glaciation, not plate tectonics.
The land bridge rose and fell several times due to Ice Age(s) influences,
while tectonics was going on.
Remember we're talking millions of years here.....
> > We can all believe what we want...
>
> But we would be well advised to restrict ourselves to believing that which
> has a high probability of being true.
Or has any basis in fact....
> > the scientific world could care less what we think anyway
>
> Their is no seperate scientific world. Scientists live on the same planet
> as the rest of the human race.
That was a 'figurative' world, not a literal one. Maybe I should
have said "Scientists could care less what we think". They are
the experts after all..............what we think doesn't affect them one
whit, or change the facts. I would like to think though, that people of
good common sense and intelligence could calmly look at the scientific
literature as relates to Equus evolution and all come to the
same conclusions. Perhaps that is a bit naive, but I have a right to
my own opinions.
Kathy Hoover
Tim Shurtleff
I always hated them too, til I had one. I found out they were just dogs, just
in a small package.
We have two of them [a longhair (about 8lb) and a shorthair (about 5 lb)]., plus
a small terrier (about 10lb) and a biiiig dog (lab/doby mix). Both rat-dogs
are excitable, but not nasty. It is hard to sit down in my house without a
"dogette" wanting to jump in your lap. All they want is to be petted and to
sleep in your lap. (and there is a well documented connection between petting
an animal and lowered blood-pressure, so they serve their purpose <g>) They
think they are farm dogs just like the big dog, except they get to sleep in the
house. They like to go to the barn too. They are quite smart, compared to
other dog breeds we have had.
They think they are guarding the house by barking when someone shows up they
don't know, but they have never been known to bite. It takes about 30 seconds
to win them over.
Funniest site I ever saw was one day someone came over with a great dane almost
four feet tall. The littlest chihuahua got let out of the house and chased the
great dane back into his car and stood guard to make sure he didn't come back
out. He stayed in the car, occasionally peeking out to see if it was safe.
They are small but don't know it. Reminds me of a tee-shirt my son has. It
says "It is not the size of the dog in the in the fight, it is the size of the
fight in the dog."
Biggest problem we have with them is that they can't hold it all night. We make
them sleep in little plastic airline kennel-carriers at night. We tell them to
"go to bed" and they run for their beds and wait for us to close the gate. They
can hold it if they are in their own beds til they are let out in the morning.
They even like their beds and go sleep in them during the day when the door is
open. I guess it is their safe place to hide out.
They also go trail riding with us on our farm. Like any dog, they keep up,
explore, goof off and have learned to stay out of the way of the (ob) horses
feet. One stomp and they would be a grease spot.
We are especially careful of them at night when we let them out. There is a
healthy coyote population in the woods nearby and I think they would be a quick
meal if they got out when they are near.
Tim Shurtleff
Business Website: http://www.usmo.com/~tshrtlef/
Horsey website: http://www.usmo.com/~tshrtlef/timhorse.html for horse/farm stuff and some PARALYMPICS EQUESTRIAN GAMES pictures and memories.
Snezewort
Tom.S...@juge.com (Tom Stovall) says:
Of the late Quarternary E. caballus fossils referenced at Faunmap:
>"A", as in one? Of course, they couldn't possibly be mistaken.
One's all you need. My count of E. caballus fossils in North America now
stands at 11.
>Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it: Equus whatever left evidence of it's
>passage from Patagonia to Alaska; yet, the folks who have caballus
>evolving in the New World have only managed to turn up [n] fossils of
>questionable classification and/or origin.
A good, standard creationist kind of argument. If there were so many
proto-humans, how come is it there's so few fossils? Good, standard answer:
fossils don't grow on trees. And the majority of Equus fossils in North
America aren't identified beyond genus level.
As to the tons (if indeed there are) of E. caballus fossils in Asia and Europe,
I don't know of any older than about 50,000 years ago. Too young for this area
to represent a point of origin of a species that first appeared 1.6 million
years ago. Cave paintings only date back about 30,000 years. Too late to
answer the origins question.
I have had no success in tracking down European or Asian horse fossils on the
web.
As to the classification of the Irvingtonian fossils (1.9 to .3 million years
ago):
>That would depend on which particular portion of the late lamented one
>was attempting to use for classification.
Teeth and jawbones. Don't get much better for classification purposes,
although full skulls are nice and fully articulated skeletons even better. I
posted the source so you could check it.
As to whether E. caballus was present in North America, which I said was a
question of fact, you said:
>No ma'am, it's a question of claims, not facts.
The existence of the subject animal in North America is a question of fact.
The question of where E. caballus first developed and from which it
subsequently spread is also ultimately a question of fact. Until the facts are
all in (and in science, they almost never are) it's a hypothesis, confirmed or
disconfirmed by facts.
No claims
.>The fact is that claims of pre-
>columbian E. caballus fossils in the New World have not been accepted by
>a whole bunch of folks who are also smarter'n me.
Ah, the appeal to unnamed authority. Always a popular move.
In pursuing the interesting question of my Irvingtonian fossils, I ran across a
citation to an article written by couple of guys in 1980 (don't remember their
names) who had decided there weren't any E. caballus fossils in North America.
I also found that my Irvingtonian fossils had been classified as different
species of E. caballus in the past. Apparently they've been reclassified.
I've run across a lecturer in Phylogeny and Taxonomy explaining the presence of
E. caballus in North America as a migration of E. caballus from the Old World,
and the good people at the Natural History Museum of Florence (another major
research institution) who state flatly that E. caballus evolved in North
America and spread into Eurasia, which fits the facts as I know them.
>We have,
>literally, tons of E. caballus fossil remains in Europe and Asia; here,
>we have, allegedly (!), a few fragments.
The relevant question here is: how old are the caballus fossils in Europe and
Asia? I'm just asking, I don't know. The oldest fossil horse I've run across
in Europe is about 50,000 years old, pretty young if caballus first appeared on
the Asian steppes 1.6 million years ago. Too damn young, in my
not-even-slightly-humble opinion.
One reason there's lots of fossils on the steppes is a big factor against the
emergence of E. caballus in Asia, namely _ice_. The Ice Age repeatedly wiped
out all fauna in the area. The region in question is relatvely far to the
north, is mostly at high elevations, and has a severe climate even in these
post-glacial, global-warming times. The horse is not well-adapted to severe
winters. (Towards the end of Quarternary, you can add heavy human predation to
the population pressures).
North America, OTOH, had lots of good grassland and equable climate over a
large area even when glaciation was at its peak. Prime horse country. The
likeliest place for Equus to have survived while his counterparts were going
extinct in the Old World, and the likeliest point of radiation for the
surviving species during interglacial periods.
Tom Stovall
Snezewort wrote:
>
re: One fossil?
> One's all you need...
More correctly, one that is accepted by science as accurately identified
and dated.
>My count of E. caballus fossils in North America now stands at 11...
That would be your count of claims.
re: "Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it: Equus whatever left evidence of
it's passage from Patagonia to Alaska; yet, the folks who have caballus
evolving in the New World have only managed to turn up [n] fossils of
questionable classification and/or origin..." -TS
>
> A good, standard creationist kind of argument...
I dunno about the creationist aspect, but it's a logical question that
is as yet unanswered.
>If there were so many proto-humans, how come is it there's so few fossils?...
Would this be the standard "straw horse" argument?
>[...] And the majority of Equus fossils in North America aren't
>identified beyond genus level...
Oh? Most of them I've found referenced, including those in your cites at
Berkeley, were classified as to genus and species.
> As to the tons (if indeed there are) of E. caballus fossils in Asia and >Europe, I don't know of any older than about 50,000 years ago. Too >young for this area to represent a point of origin of a species that >first appeared 1.6 million years ago. Cave paintings only date back >about 30,000 years. Too late to answer the origins question.
>
You've given several time frames for caballus' evolution: Which one is
it today?
re: Taxonomic classification. "That would depend on which particular
portion of the late lamented one was attempting to use for
classification..." -TS
>
> Teeth and jawbones. Don't get much better for classification purposes,
> although full skulls are nice and fully articulated skeletons even >better...
Fragments of teeth and portions of jawbones would be a more accurate
description. All found in the same place; all but one, found by the same
fellow.
> As to whether E. caballus was present in North America, which I said >was a question of fact, you said:
>
> >No ma'am, it remains a question of claims, not facts.
>
> The existence of the subject animal in North America is a question of fact...
No ma'am. Claims and theories are not facts.
>
> The question of where E. caballus first developed and from which it
> subsequently spread is also ultimately a question of fact. Until the
>facts are all in (and in science, they almost never are) it's a
>hypothesis, confirmed or disconfirmed by facts.
No ma'am, hypotheses are confirmed or disproved by testing and empirical
evaluation of data; data are presumed factual, but can be conflicting,
hence the need for evaluation.
>
re: Facts. "The fact is that claims of pre-columbian E. caballus fossils
in the New World have not been accepted by a whole bunch of folks who
are also smarter'n me..." -TS
>
> Ah, the appeal to unnamed authority. Always a popular move.
>
Evidently so, as is evidenced by your next few sentences:
> In pursuing the interesting question of my Irvingtonian fossils, I ran >across a citation to an article written by couple of guys in 1980 (don't >remember their names) who had decided there weren't any E. caballus >fossils in North America...
> I also found that my Irvingtonian fossils had been classified as >different species of E. caballus in the past...
Wouldn't that be a different species of Equus or a subspecies of E.
caballus?
> I've run across a lecturer in Phylogeny and Taxonomy explaining the >presence of E. caballus in North America as a migration of E. caballus >from the Old World, and the good people at the Natural History Museum of >Florence (another major research institution) who state flatly that E. >caballus evolved in North America and spread into Eurasia, which fits >the facts as I know them.
re: "We have, literally, tons of E. caballus fossil remains in Europe
and Asia; here, we have, allegedly (!), a few fragments.
>
> The relevant question here is: how old are the caballus fossils in >Europe and Asia? I'm just asking, I don't know...
Me neither.
>The oldest fossil horse I've run across in Europe is about 50,000 years >old, pretty young if caballus first appeared on the Asian steppes 1.6
>million years ago...
Not Asia, Eurasia.
>Too damn young, in my not-even-slightly-humble opinion.
>
> One reason there's lots of fossils on the steppes is a big factor >against the emergence of E. caballus in Asia, namely _ice_. The Ice Age >repeatedly wiped out all fauna in the area. The region in question is >relatvely far to the north, is mostly at high elevations...
According to my handy-dandy World Almanac, most of that area of the
steppes
which encompasses the majority of the European Plain from the Bay of
Biscay northward to the North Sea, then south to the Caspian Sea, south
of the Urals, then north across the West Siberian Plain to the Central
Siberian Plateau, has an elevation of less than 200 meters.
>
>and has a severe climate even in these post-glacial, global-warming >times...
Not all of it.
>The horse is not well-adapted to severe winters...
This will come as a shock to most stockmen. In reality, horses, far
better than most migratory herbivores, are well equipped to handle
extremes of cold; in fact, they handle extremes of cold better than
extremens of heat.
> North America, OTOH, had lots of good grassland and equable climate
>over a large area even when glaciation was at its peak...
The North American Great Plains are bit higher in elevation (200-500m)
and considerably smaller in area than the Eurasian Steppes. Both are
situated roughly between the 40th and 60th parallels, although the Great
American Desert extends further southward, to below the 30th parallel.
>Prime horse country. The likeliest place for Equus to have survived >while his counterparts were going extinct in the Old World, and the >likeliest point of radiation for the surviving species during
>interglacial periods.
On the basis of whether the Eurasian steppes or the New World plains
comprise the best habitat for modern horses, there's not really that
much difference. The Plains are smaller, higher and extend further
south; the Steppes are bigger, lower and extend below the 40th parallel
only in a few places.
--
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.com
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"ĄEn boca cerrada no entran moscas!"
Snezewort
Tom Stovall <sto...@wt.net> say of E. caballus fossils in North America:
>That would be your count of claims.
That would be my count of fossils that are published, available for inspection
in public institutions, and dated by one or more of the accepted dating
methods, yes.
As to the apparently low number of such fossils, you mocked the low number;
>I dunno about the creationist aspect, but it's a logical question that
>is as yet unanswered.
It's a "straw man" argument that deliberately ignores the realities of fossil
deposition and collection. There are entire genuses of prehistoric fauna that
are known from one fragmentary fossil.
>Oh? Most of them [Equus fossils] I've found referenced, including those in
your cites at
>Berkeley, were classified as to genus and species.
You haven't looked very hard, then. Check out the large fossil collection at
Florida Museum of Natural History.
>You've given several time frames for caballus' evolution: Which one is
>it today?
The 1.6 million year figure is yours. I've never given a time frame for
caballus' evolution. I have no idea when caballus first appeared and you're
the only source I've ever encountered that claimed a date.
Equus' first appearance has been moved back from roughly 1.5 million years ago,
and I've encountered dates for that ranging from 2.5 to 5 million years ago.
>Fragments of teeth and portions of jawbones would be a more accurate
>description. All found in the same place; all but one, found by the same
>fellow.
Most fossils are fragmentary.
One fossil was found by Stirton in 1939, the other nine by Savage n 1951. The
late Quarternary fossil, I don't know who collected it.
The fossils have been available for study in public institutions for a number
of years.
On the dating of Eurasian E. caballus fossils, you state that you don't know
how old any of these fossils are: whence then the date 1.6 million years ago?
As to horses' adaptation to winter:
>This will come as a shock to most stockmen. In reality, horses, far
>better than most migratory herbivores, are well equipped to handle
>extremes of cold; in fact, they handle extremes of cold better than
>extremens of heat.
Cold's one thing, snow and ice are another. Glacial periods were not a lot
colder than modern temps, but snow cover was significantly deeper. And
year-round through areas of glaciation, which would have covered a large
portion of the steppe, if not all of it. Being bounded on mountains in the
south, steppe fauna could not retreat from the advancing snow to areas of
forage.
Even when they could retreat, as they did in Europe to the southern fringes,
they sometimes found a lot of hungry humans waiting for 'em.
But in North America the central plain extends deep into Mexico. As the ice
sheets advanced, other climate areas moved south with 'em. The plains
grasslands simply moved south, and Pleistocene grazers with 'em.
>On the basis of whether the Eurasian steppes or the New World plains
>comprise the best habitat for modern horses, there's not really that
>much difference.
Modern geography and modern horses. Think about them under glaciation. The
central American plain extends southward to Mexico. A lot of this is desert
now, but it hasn't always been. The steppe goes only to the 40th parallel and
is bounded on the south by high mountain ranges, from which ice sheets also
advanced, leaving grazers with no place to run.
CMNewell
On 25 Nov 1997 03:57:39 GMT, snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>OBhorsey: Ted has become more relaxed, which, in a way known only to
>Anglo-Arabs, has translated into the occasional (alright, already, almost
>daily) sideways levitation.
He's just checking to see if you're paying attention.
>
>I've discovered that my seat is not so secure on the right, and that I'm
>probably one of those screwy A-rab people because I think this is really funny.
>
>I know, I know, laughing just encourages 'em.
I do believe you're right...
> I promise to be more stern-like
>in future. ;-)
And spoil his fun?
--CMNewell
Snezewort
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (CMNewell) says:
> He's just checking to see if you're paying attention.
No kidding. I'm learning a lot more tolerance of folks who's horses aren't
always perfectly behaved, on account of the more Ted feels "at home" with me,
the more disobedient he gets -- in a casual, friendly kind of way.
Like, why bother standing around to be groomed when there are so many
interesting things in the barn aisle to investigate? Why should he have to
stay put if I'm moving around? And why stick to the old boring
walk/trot/canter when there are so many more interesting ways of navigating
through space?
He takes a keen interest in the world around him. Teaching him Obedience 101
without destroying that spark is a very interesting training problem.
I said:
>> I promise to be more stern-like
>>in future. ;-)
> And spoil his fun?
> --CMNewell
Ya know, you're right. And I know it 'breaks all the rules' but he does better
with the spookies if I let him stop and investigate whatever-it-was that set
him off. He wants to see for himself.
Last week we just stood a while and looked at the giant horse-eating arena
door. I'd never really noticed that it rattled in the wind -- but Ted did.
Boing! So we looked at it, listened to it rattle a while. He doesn't know why
it rattles, of course, but he seems somewhat persuaded that it's not going to
launch an attack.
M. Brumbaugh
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>Well, since there seems to be some kind of pissing contest regarding the
>existence of Equus caballus in North America, and the liberrie's closed (odd
>hours those librarians keep)
How do you time to keep up with Rec.Eq! We can't work all the
time!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Mollie Brumbaugh
Corporate Librarian
Household International
hous...@nslsilus.org
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
> hous...@nslsilus.org (M. Brumbaugh) asks:
>
>>How do you time to keep up with Rec.Eq! We can't work all the
>>time!!!!!
>
>The key is working nights. When those other fools are sleeping. ;-)
>
>Imagine the amount of net time you could get in at 2:00 a.m. ;-)
>
>And then, of course, when you work nights, you don't have to do the dinner
>thing, and the helping the munchkins with the homework thing, and the fighting
>traffic thing.
>
>Come to think of it, you can cut way back on the cleaning house thing -- who
>notices dirt when it's dark? And in the mornings, when you _might_, just
>_might_ notice, well, ya gotta zip out of the house anyway so's you can ride
>before you go to work. ;-)
>
>If only the library was open at 1 a.m., life would be very nearly perfect.
>;-)
As a confirmed night owl ... should I mention that the "online
library" never closes? ;-/
I get some of my most productive computer time between 11pm and 3am.
And sometimes I get engrossed and eventually notice the sun coming
up, and see the herd staring at the house wondering what kind of
oddball schedule I'm on *this* time! ;)
- - -
Jorene
just moseyin' down the California trails ... :)
Meet other rec.eq posters on:
http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>As a confirmed night owl ... should I mention that the "online
>library" never closes? ;-/
It sure doesn't. I've got a fairly extensive collection of journals and books
on my on-line "must read" list myself. ;-) Not enough stuff about horses,
though. ;-(
>I get some of my most productive computer time between 11pm and 3am.
>And sometimes I get engrossed and eventually notice the sun coming
>up, and see the herd staring at the house wondering what kind of
>oddball schedule I'm on *this* time! ;)
My best hours, too. But web-surfing is kinda like eating potato chips, (or
playing solitaire, another nemesis). You know, "just one more, and then I'll
quit" quickly becomes another hour of surfing.
I figure AOL's tendency to crash during extended surfing sessions is just my
'puter's way of telling me to go to bed already.
OBhorsey: Ted's latest nemesis is white plastic blocks (you know, the kind you
use to build training jumps). Well, my coach also uses them to set up patterns
for ring work, and Tuesday Ted declared that he wanted no part of going between
any white plastic blocks (and this critter _gallops_, twice a day, through a
woodlot full of deadfalls. Go figure). ;-) Anne said he'd worked with them
before, but always objected.
So we canned the lesson and played with blocks. Kicked 'em, rolled 'em, waved
'em around, walked between 'em (on the lead). I set up a V-shaped "chute" and
gradually narrowed it until he was walking calmly between two blocks a little
over a foot apart, so progress was made, but he remains leery and never touches
'em. I'd really like him to bump into them a few times while my feet are
safely on terra firma before we have this experience under saddle. ;-)
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>
>>As a confirmed night owl ... [...]
>>I get some of my most productive computer time between 11pm and 3am.
[...]
>My best hours, too. But web-surfing is kinda like eating potato chips
The only web surfing I do is usually classified as research.
Sometimes it is even billable time. :)
>I figure AOL's tendency to crash during extended surfing sessions is just my
>'puter's way of telling me to go to bed already.
I have a message scheduled to pop up every hour to remind me to head
for bed ... which I routinely ignore, because it also has a
convenient "remind me again in one hour" button! ;))) This
reminder feature is real handy during foaling season, though. Sends
me down to the barn to check the mare(s)-most-likely-to-foal on a
regular basis. Managed to be on the scene for 3 of 4 deliveries last
year. Have 8 to foal out this year, so I suppose I should start
*now* to catch up on my sleep ahead of time! ;-/
>OBhorsey: Ted's latest nemesis is white plastic blocks (you know, the kind you
>use to build training jumps). Well, my coach also uses them to set up patterns
>for ring work, and Tuesday Ted declared that he wanted no part of going between
>any white plastic blocks [...]
>So we canned the lesson and played with blocks. Kicked 'em, rolled 'em, waved
>'em around, walked between 'em (on the lead). I set up a V-shaped "chute" and
>gradually narrowed it until he was walking calmly between two blocks a little
>over a foot apart, so progress was made, but he remains leery and never touches
>'em. I'd really like him to bump into them a few times while my feet are
>safely on terra firma before we have this experience under saddle. ;-)
Off to a good start! :) It might also help to put a few blocks in
his stall, or leave him in the round pen for a long period with
blocks scattered all over. Sooner or later he'll figure out those
blocks don't have predator's teeth! ;-/
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>The only web surfing I do is usually classified as research.
>Sometimes it is even billable time. :)
Right, that's right. How silly of me. ;-) On-line research is kinda like
eating potato chips.
Actually, I went and got a straight job, so all my 'puter time is now
recreational. ;-)
>I have a message scheduled to pop up every hour to remind me to head
>for bed ... which I routinely ignore, because it also has a
>convenient "remind me again in one hour" button! ;))) This
>reminder feature is real handy during foaling season, though.
Being a night-owl has got to be an advantage during foaling season. As long as
that unreasonable "rest of the world" doesn't expect you to be awake in the
daytime, too. ;-)
>Managed to be on the scene for 3 of 4 deliveries last
>year.
Closest I've ever been to a foaling is meeting the foal the morning after it
was born, alas. Part of being a boarder.
>Have 8 to foal out this year, so I suppose I should start
>*now* to catch up on my sleep ahead of time! ;-/
I'd go to bed now and stay there until January. Gotta save your strength. ;-)
<snip of Ted's encounter with the evil blocks from hell>
>Off to a good start! :) It might also help to put a few blocks in
>his stall, or leave him in the round pen for a long period with
>blocks scattered all over. Sooner or later he'll figure out those
>blocks don't have predator's teeth! ;-/
Thankee. And you're making me feel a little smart, 'cause I thought of trying
those things, so maybe I'm starting to get the hang of this despooking
business. ;-) I shall ask my coach if I can borrow a block for Ted to play
with in his stall. The round pen is snowed in for the winter, but we can
probably arrange more fun with blocks over the winter in the arena.
Hope Blu's leg is doing better.
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
[...]
Deb Hendrickson wrote:
>Being a night-owl has got to be an advantage during foaling season. As long as
>that unreasonable "rest of the world" doesn't expect you to be awake in the
>daytime, too. ;-)
People who hang around me long enough get used to the idea that to
me, 9AM is early! Makes life interesting when I go off to a client
site - especially in a more eastern time zone - and they expect me
to be cheerful and a consulting genius no later than 8AM! :))) Not
many events I consider a good reason to roll out of bed at the crack
of dawn. Exceptions are a horse show, or moseyin' down the trail
horse camping. ;)
>Closest I've ever been to a foaling is meeting the foal the morning after it
>was born, alas. Part of being a boarder.
It is a neat and fascinating experience, if you ever have the
opportunity.
>>Have 8 to foal out this year, so I suppose I should start
>>*now* to catch up on my sleep ahead of time! ;-/
>
>I'd go to bed now and stay there until January. Gotta save your strength. ;-)
Hmmm. I could take the laptop to bed with me ... sleep, check in
with rec.eq, sleep, check in with rec.eq, sleep ... <yawn!>
><snip of Ted's encounter with the evil blocks from hell>
>
>>Off to a good start! :) It might also help to put a few blocks in
>>his stall, or leave him in the round pen for a long period with
>>blocks scattered all over. Sooner or later he'll figure out those
>>blocks don't have predator's teeth! ;-/
>
>Thankee. And you're making me feel a little smart, 'cause I thought of trying
>those things, so maybe I'm starting to get the hang of this despooking
>business. ;-)
It's mostly common sense, so you should have just followed your
instincts. ;) The foundation of sacking out is nothing more than
repetition until the horse pretty much ignores whatever he
previously suspected had teeth. So you can often save time by just
putting that "evil X from hell" in close proximity to the horse for
a while. A stall is convenient because you can hang the object on
the feeder, park it in the middle of the floor where it can't be
ignored, etc., and leave it there for days at a time. :) The tricky
part is to *anticipate* what *might* make the horse spooky, and do
"preventative" sacking out.
Feel free to get creative! I know one gal whose horse was serously
spooky about split reins or ropes flopping around him. She hung a
few ropes from the stall rafters so they brushed and dragged over
that horse whenever he moved around. A few hours later he was rather
indifferent to them. :) And yes, you need to use common sense as to
whether the horse can be left unattended in whatever sacking out
situation you have devised.
>Hope Blu's leg is doing better.
We'll be unwrapping / re-bandaging her leg for the first time this
evening. Hoping to find all stitches intact! And by Tuesday we'll
know if that big flap of skin is gonna survive, or slough off. If we
saved most of the skin, we'll be miles ahead for healing. <fingers
crossed!>
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>People who hang around me long enough get used to the idea that to
>me, 9AM is early! Makes life interesting when I go off to a client
>site - especially in a more eastern time zone - and they expect me
>to be cheerful and a consulting genius no later than 8AM! :)))
Those silly, unreasonable people. ;-)
>Not
>many events I consider a good reason to roll out of bed at the crack
>of dawn. Exceptions are a horse show, or moseyin' down the trail
>horse camping. ;)
I tell people one of the reasons I don't show is that you have to get up too
bloody early. They think I'm kidding. ;-) Although we've got Ted aimed for at
least one little schooling show next year, as part of the despooking process.
If I do a good job with the desenstizing this winter and over the
spring/summer, it should be a non-event. (Knocking head for luck). ;-)
>It's mostly common sense, so you should have just followed your
>instincts. ;) The foundation of sacking out is nothing more than
>repetition until the horse pretty much ignores whatever he
>previously suspected had teeth.
We will keep at it. "Scary Objects 101" ;-) What was pretty neat about the
blocks was that I had the Tedster's full, undivided attention the whole time.
He was really working on figuring that problem out. I think he's gonna be a
good one.
>We'll be unwrapping / re-bandaging her leg for the first time this
>evening. Hoping to find all stitches intact! And by Tuesday we'll
>know if that big flap of skin is gonna survive, or slough off. If we
>saved most of the skin, we'll be miles ahead for healing. <fingers
>crossed!>
Hope so, too. Sounds like a deep wound.
CMNewell
>Deb Hendrickson wrote:
>>Being a night-owl has got to be an advantage during foaling season. As long as
>>that unreasonable "rest of the world" doesn't expect you to be awake in the
>>daytime, too. ;-)
>
>People who hang around me long enough get used to the idea that to
>me, 9AM is early!
Women after my own heart.
--CMNewell (who only gets up early for horse
shows...)
A1....@isumvs.iastate.edu
In article <34ae2425....@news.psnw.com>,
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) writes:
..
>Feel free to get creative! I know one gal whose horse was serously
>spooky about split reins or ropes flopping around him. She hung a
>few ropes from the stall rafters so they brushed and dragged over
>that horse whenever he moved around. A few hours later he was rather
>indifferent to them. :) And yes, you need to use common sense as to
>whether the horse can be left unattended in whatever sacking out
>situation you have devised.
Very big agreement on that last statement. There was a couple who
boarded a weanling/yearling at the same barn I had Regis. To
"despook" him to flapping things, they hung several strands of those
little plastic flags over the top of his stall. He was fine
with 'em, until I walked by his stall one day and noticed that he
managed somehow to wrap those suckers around his little neck. (Cut
the lines, he was ok, but I really wanted to use the owners to
*demonstrate* what happened.)
(I'm not sure "common" sense is either common, or enough in these
cases - instead, try to imagine every POSSIBLE action and reaction
your horse may have to a bogeyman, even things he's never done and
you think he'd never really do. Like wearing a tire as a necklace,
or using strings of plastic flags as a scarf, or rearing up in a low
ceiling building.)
Mary H.
Phetsy Calderon
In article <3487fa31...@news.ma.ultranet.com>,
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (CMNewell) wrote:
Hallelujah! You mean I am NOT really the only horseperson who's a
nighthawk instead of a lark? O frabjuous day!
I _hated_ Xmas when I was a kid: everybody else in my family was from the
"Four a.m.! What a lovely time to be up and about!" school of time
management. Naturally, I always figured "Hey, it's Christmas, it's a day
for spoiling kids, I should get to sleep in."
And I did.
Often as late as oh, 7:30 a.m.
At which point a bunch of gregarious, energetic Scots Americans would
troop into my bedroom (I had the misfortune of being not only the only
child, but the only grandchild on my mother's side) yelling "Christmas
gift!" at the top of voices capable of stopping wild horses dead in their
tracks from 50 paces.
They would bounce with glee and anticipation--the tree was lit! The
presents were wrapped! The horses were fed, the dogs had their bones, the
barn lot had been raked, my grandmother had made biscuit and bacon and
oatmeal and waffles and eggs and--get the kid up!
I would inevitably moan "Can't I just sleep a few more minutes?" It was
_cold_ in that San Joaquin Valley fog, y'know.
But no, I had to be got up, guided swaying into the living room, where my
Uncle Dick had the stocking ready (primed with Woolworth's best chocolate
drops on top) and my Uncle Harvey was dropping tantilizing hints about
something--leather, or possibly rawhide, or maybe pinto?
And after working through the stocking--which in my opinion, always had
the Best Things, like Chinese handcuffs and paddleballs--and various
goodies ranging from Civil War cavalry sets to little Mexican monkies that
would beat little drums when you squeezed an air bulb, I would eventually
get to The Wonderful Thing, the new red boots, or the roping saddle, or
the just-my-size-denim shirt.
And then, of course, after the day of playing with the new toys and
'helping' Uncle Dick make the dinner gravy and eating all kinds of good
stuff but especially baked sweet potatoes, and visits and naps, it would
be time for the best present.
Uncle Harvey and I would go feed horses, and give everything on the
grounds a good hot mash. I would stand in the great, sandy central aisle
of the barn, which doubled as a small riding ring, and soak up the smells
of warm horse and straw bedding, cool damp sand, and oats. The quiet
chomp and shift of the eating horses would blend with the whuffle and
scratch of the dogs going about their caninine rounds. It was all wrapped
up in thick, soft fog, shot with crisp, clear stars. Warm and peaceful,
quiet and full.
I always thought Christmas night was the very best present of all.
I still go out each Christmas night, and take a hot mash to my horse, and
a carrot to all the others, so I can once again steal the sweet warmth of
their breath, and listen to the aching, rich quiet of winternight.
It's early, but I think I'll take this opportunity to wish each of you a
still and quiet night in the barn. I like to think that many of us will be
sharing out carrots and mashes this coming Old Solstice night, and I hope
you will include me in the peace of your thoughts, as I will think of my
fellow horsemen.
Phetsy
Feeling very, very grateful for her blessings this year in
Livermore, California
=====================
Phetsy Calderon
phe...@earthlink.net
"I thrive, myself, on all kinds of trouble."
--Maeve of Cruachan, in the Toin bo Cuailnge
Chris Watanabe
Jorene Downs wrote:
>
> snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>
> > hous...@nslsilus.org (M. Brumbaugh) asks:
> >
> >>How do you time to keep up with Rec.Eq! We can't work all the
> >>time!!!!!
> >
> >The key is working nights. When those other fools are sleeping. ;-)
> >
> >Imagine the amount of net time you could get in at 2:00 a.m. ;-)
> >
> >And then, of course, when you work nights, you don't have to do the dinner
> >thing, and the helping the munchkins with the homework thing, and the fighting
> >traffic thing.
> >
> >Come to think of it, you can cut way back on the cleaning house thing -- who
> >notices dirt when it's dark? And in the mornings, when you _might_, just
> >_might_ notice, well, ya gotta zip out of the house anyway so's you can ride
> >before you go to work. ;-)
> >
> >If only the library was open at 1 a.m., life would be very nearly perfect.
> >;-)
>
> library" never closes? ;-/
>
> up, and see the herd staring at the house wondering what kind of
OTOH, I've managed to reformat my 'puter once whilst trying to erase a
file at 3:00 a.m. . . .
>
> - - -
> Jorene
> just moseyin' down the California trails ... :)
>
> Meet other rec.eq posters on:
> http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
--
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.
Chris Watanabe
cri...@lava.net
Wahiawa, Hawaii
posted & mailed
Chris Watanabe
>
> >Hope Blu's leg is doing better.
>
> evening. Hoping to find all stitches intact! And by Tuesday we'll
> know if that big flap of skin is gonna survive, or slough off. If we
> saved most of the skin, we'll be miles ahead for healing. <fingers
> crossed!>
>
she doing BTW? Are you using Miracle Heel on this wound too? Is this
the stuff in the catalog that is recommended for thrush and several
other things (can't remember the list)? Hope she heals up real soon.
Cyberdonation to the Church of Equineology is in the email. . . .
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>>Not
>>many events I consider a good reason to roll out of bed at the crack
>>of dawn. Exceptions are a horse show, or moseyin' down the trail
>>horse camping. ;)
>
>I tell people one of the reasons I don't show is that you have to get up too
>bloody early. They think I'm kidding. ;-) Although we've got Ted aimed for at
>least one little schooling show next year, as part of the despooking process.
>If I do a good job with the desenstizing this winter and over the
>spring/summer, it should be a non-event. (Knocking head for luck). ;-)
Local schooling shows - and other local horse events - are *great*
for desensitizing a horse. Don't even need to be a competitor. Just
haul the horse there and let him hang out at the trailer, lead him
around to check things out, etc. For local schooling shows we
always fill the trailer and take along weanlings, yearlings, etc.,
just to give them the experience.
With this thought in mind, you might check the area for an evening
horse event. Locally there are evening ropings, team pennings, etc.
Lets you sleep in and still get the horse off to a de-spooking
situation. ;)
re: Blu
>>We'll be unwrapping / re-bandaging her leg for the first time this
>>evening. Hoping to find all stitches intact! And by Tuesday we'll
>>know if that big flap of skin is gonna survive, or slough off. If we
>>saved most of the skin, we'll be miles ahead for healing. <fingers
>>crossed!>
>
>Hope so, too. Sounds like a deep wound.
Blu exposed @ 3" of bone on her shin. And she somehow managed this
with *no* apparent injury to tendon or anything else critical.
<whew!> And last night the stitches looked like they were holding
just fine! :)
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>
>>Local schooling shows - and other local horse events - are *great*
>>for desensitizing a horse. [...]
>>With this thought in mind, you might check the area for an evening
>>horse event. Locally there are evening ropings, team pennings, etc.
[...]
>I'm planning on going to a couple of away-from-the barn clinics. If I had the
>registration, I'd take him to some of the local Arab shows, but the lady that
>wrecked him is holding his papers for ransom. ;-(
Open shows available locally?
>I'm thinking of throwing a Western saddle on him [...]
Let me know if this trial deserves a YeeeeHaaawwww! ;)
>Then again, he'd probably get a real kick out of watching team penning. ;-)
>Don't think he's ever seen a cow. ;-)
Good sacking out situation! ')
>>Blu exposed @ 3" of bone on her shin. And she somehow managed this
>>with *no* apparent injury to tendon or anything else critical.
>><whew!> And last night the stitches looked like they were holding
>>just fine! :)
>
>Great news! And I bet she's a perfect patient.
Other than Ms Curiosity being rather bored in confinement, she's
being a real trooper about the whole thing ... so far. ;)
Meanwhile, I'll give Blu an A+ for standing quietly while vet or
handler is fussing with that injured leg. Doc Jamie even commented
on how well Blu was behaving ... made the vet's job much easier!
Jane H. Kilberg
> In article <34ae2425....@news.psnw.com>,
> jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) writes:
> ..
> > And yes, you need to use common sense as to
> >whether the horse can be left unattended in whatever sacking out
> >situation you have devised.
>
> Very big agreement on that last statement. There was a couple who
> boarded a weanling/yearling at the same barn I had Regis. To
> "despook" him to flapping things, they hung several strands of those
> little plastic flags over the top of his stall. He was fine
> with 'em, until I walked by his stall one day and noticed that he
> managed somehow to wrap those suckers around his little neck. (Cut
> the lines, he was ok, but I really wanted to use the owners to
> *demonstrate* what happened.)
>
> (I'm not sure "common" sense is either common, or enough in these
> cases - instead, try to imagine every POSSIBLE action and reaction
> your horse may have to a bogeyman, even things he's never done and
> you think he'd never really do. Like wearing a tire as a necklace,
> or using strings of plastic flags as a scarf, or rearing up in a low
> ceiling building.)
Maybe Continuing Education programs should give seminars on Common Sense
and Horse Sense! <SEG>
I think one of the lousiest common sense I've seen are folks who put
halters and short leads on their foals so they can catch them, or as I've
been told....learn not to step on leads......and panic....then they have to
deal with broken necks, mis-aligned vertebrae, or worse....dead foal.
down the tejas trails....
jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas
Laura Friedman
A1....@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU wrote:
To
> "despook" him to flapping things, they hung several strands of those
> little plastic flags over the top of his stall.
I've tried this and found that horses will absolutely get used to
whatever scary things are put in their stall. However, many of them
will STILL spook at the exact same items on the trail!
Just because the plastic bag in the stall is tame, that's no guarantee
the wild one isn't a horse eater!
Laura & Squiggles (who's learned to walk past those baggies, even though
she'll quake and snort at them just to show them whose boss)
Phetsy Calderon
In article <3489DC...@fourmilab.ch>, ro...@fourmilab.ch wrote:
> Dear Phetsy,
>
> Thanks for the reminiscing. I didn't get to grow up with horses, but
> the last decade or so, when I've had my own, the evening in the barn
> scene you described has been a staple of my internal peace and
> priorities-adjustment. Tends to put most stressors in perspective.
>
> You can bet we'll be thinking of you and our other rec.eq friends and
> sending warmest wishes throughout the holidays!
I'm finding that lucking out big time in a car wreck (RIP, Jaime Truck)
tends to put the commercialism of the winter holidays very much in
perspective.
A horse in the stall beats four shopping malls, every time.
Phetsy
Roxie Walker
Phetsy Calderon wrote:
<VBSnip>
> Uncle Harvey and I would go feed horses, and give everything on the
> grounds a good hot mash. I would stand in the great, sandy central aisle
> of the barn, which doubled as a small riding ring, and soak up the smells
> of warm horse and straw bedding, cool damp sand, and oats. The quiet
> chomp and shift of the eating horses would blend with the whuffle and
> scratch of the dogs going about their caninine rounds. It was all wrapped
> up in thick, soft fog, shot with crisp, clear stars. Warm and peaceful,
> quiet and full.
>
> I always thought Christmas night was the very best present of all.
>
> I still go out each Christmas night, and take a hot mash to my horse, and
> a carrot to all the others, so I can once again steal the sweet warmth of
> their breath, and listen to the aching, rich quiet of winternight.
>
> It's early, but I think I'll take this opportunity to wish each of you a
> still and quiet night in the barn. I like to think that many of us will be
> sharing out carrots and mashes this coming Old Solstice night, and I hope
> you will include me in the peace of your thoughts, as I will think of my
> fellow horsemen.
Dear Phetsy,
Thanks for the reminiscing. I didn't get to grow up with horses, but
the last decade or so, when I've had my own, the evening in the barn
scene you described has been a staple of my internal peace and
priorities-adjustment. Tends to put most stressors in perspective.
You can bet we'll be thinking of you and our other rec.eq friends and
sending warmest wishes throughout the holidays!
Happy Trails,
Roxie, Lora and Tom
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>Open shows available locally?
Don't really know. I'm afraid I'm not quite hooked into the western cuture
around here. But since nothing much happens here in the winter, horsewise, I
guess I've got lots of time to find ou
t.>>I'm thinking of throwing a Western saddle on him [...]
>
>Let me know if this trial deserves a YeeeeHaaawwww! ;)
If it goes well, I may be able to overcome my Norwegian heritage and give out
with one a those myself.
(Norwegian enthusiasm; "yep, that's pretty damn good" said with absolutely no
inflection. ;-)
>Other than Ms Curiosity being rather bored in confinement, she's
>being a real trooper about the whole thing ... so far. ;)
>Meanwhile, I'll give Blu an A+ for standing quietly while vet or
>handler is fussing with that injured leg. Doc Jamie even commented
>on how well Blu was behaving ... made the vet's job much easier!
Ah, that stall rest is so tedious. Maybe you could teach her to read (I've
been reading "Mrs. Frisbie and the Rats of NIMH" -- now there's a good
anthropomorphic wallow ;-)
Hope she'll be able to go outside again pretty soon.
Jorene Downs
Chris Watanabe <cri...@lava.net> wrote:
>Jorene Downs wrote:
(re: 2 y.o. overo Paint filly, Blu, with recent leg injury)
>> We'll be unwrapping / re-bandaging her leg for the first time this
>> evening. Hoping to find all stitches intact! And by Tuesday we'll
>> know if that big flap of skin is gonna survive, or slough off. If we
>> saved most of the skin, we'll be miles ahead for healing. <fingers
>> crossed!>
>I remember when your other horse Pretty Girl, was it?, got hurt. How's
>she doing BTW?
@ 18 months later, Pretty Girl is still wearing her bucket. And
she's gotten that bucket off a few times to go after her forearm,
causing setbacks again and again. But the huge injury is now reduced
to a raw spot that I can cover with my palm. I suspect she'll be
getting a skin graft. And although she wanders around on 20 acres,
sometimes galloping along with her herdmates, Pretty Girl will have
permanent mobility impairment. But although she won't ever be
rideable, she'll be well valued for the nice Paint foals she'll put
on the ground!
For those of you wondering why a horse is wearing a bucket ... you
can find out what happened - complete with pix - on:
http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/prettygirl.html
At the bottom of that first page is also a link to her '97 colt's
page. Pretty Girl delivered that stallion prospect ... and nursed
Chief for 4 months ... while wearing her bucket. :)
>Are you using Miracle Heel on this wound too?
I suspect we'll start using Miracle Heel on Blu. We'll see what Doc
Jamie says after she takes a look in the morning. Christi changed
the bandages while I was out of town this weekend and said the skin
flap didn't survive the stitching effort to save it. So we'll be
back to dealing with 3-4" of exposed shin bone. :-(
>Is this
>the stuff in the catalog that is recommended for thrush and several
>other things (can't remember the list)?
Dunno. All we've ever used it for is on wounds. Great stuff for
equine First Aid. We always have a jar in the travel pack, and it
sure did a wonderful job accelerating Pretty Girl's healing. And Doc
Jamie mentioned that she's used it on a few small cuts on her hands
with great success. ;)
>Hope she heals up real soon.
>Cyberdonation to the Church of Equineology is in the email. . . .
Thanks! Think we'll need a hefty blessing and prayer from the
Church. Blu isn't at all happy in her 12x16 stall. Ms. Curiosity
keeps looking for things to do. Hung a plastic carton for her to
play with. She beat it up for about five minutes straight,
aggressively batting it around with her head. Then she reared and
struck at it. One bashed plastic carton! Of course, she had to
celebrate her direct hit with a mini-buck. <sigh> Just what her
injured leg did NOT need! But the concept of standing quietly 24/7
just doesn't work well for this previously very active and fit 2
y.o. accustomed to 365 turnout!
Just wish her aim had been as good and she'd tagged that chasing dog
instead of the fence! :-/
(posted & mailed)
Jorene Downs
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) wrote:
>Chris Watanabe <cri...@lava.net> wrote:
[...]
>>Are you using Miracle Heel on this wound too?
>
>I suspect we'll start using Miracle Heel on Blu. We'll see what Doc
>Jamie says after she takes a look in the morning. Christi changed
>the bandages while I was out of town this weekend and said the skin
>flap didn't survive the stitching effort to save it. So we'll be
>back to dealing with 3-4" of exposed shin bone. :-(
[...]
Got the results in from Doc Jamie's exam. Rather than using Miracle
Heel - which is apparently better used on cuts, etc.- we'll be using
Cothi-vet spray. Apparently this spray - which we didn't have
available early in Pretty Girl's treatment - somehow helps
accelerate healing and reduces proud flesh. We'll need to continue
to bandage snugly because fingers are crossed that the raw section
currently detached from the bone will successfully re-attach. If
not, it will get trimmed back.
Doc Jamie is well aware that Blu was slated to start serious Paint
circuit competition in Trail in '98, so she's focused not only on
the healing with full mobility, but on the preference for minimal
scarring. Quite a challenge!
I already see indications that my 4-legged patient is *not* going to
be easy to keep quietly confined. Blu's body language is already
screaming "I want out!", and she's starting to do the horse version
of a 2y.o. sulking. I even had to put her halter on to give her the
meds in the applesauce paste tonight. And I noticed at PM feeding
was that she's been worrying her bandages. <sigh> Time to break out
the nasty tasting stuff. If she starts chewing, this is gonna be a
long haul for recovery! But if we can get that bone covered nicely,
we'll probably be looking at doing skin grafting to speed things
along.
E. Carpenter
In article <34c06aab....@news.psnw.com>,
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) wrote:
>And I noticed at PM feeding
>was that she's been worrying her bandages. <sigh> Time to break out
>the nasty tasting stuff. If she starts chewing, this is gonna be a
>long haul for recovery!
Is it a front leg? Sorry I didn't follow the thread before and have not got
the old messages. She can wear a pair of modified jeans if it is a front
leg and that should keep her teeth off the more vital bandaging :-)
Cut one leg off and attach 'bum' (or should I say 'butt' as it is the US?)
part of jeans around her neck/chest/withers (like a bib) and one front leg
down the jeans :-)
It has *worked*, honest!!
Good luck :-)
Liz and Basil (I prefer smart slacks)
--
--------------------------------------
cvsec at leeds dot ac dot uk
--------------------------------------
Debbie Kell
Sure can relate - just wish "significant other" was tolerant of such
things!
>Come to think of it, you can cut way back on the cleaning house thing --
who notices dirt when it's dark? And in the mornings, when you _might_,
just_might_ notice, well, ya gotta zip out of the house anyway so's you can
ride before you go to work. ;-)
> >If only the library was open at 1 a.m., life would be very nearly
perfect.
> >;-)
> As a confirmed night owl ... should I mention that the "online
> library" never closes? ;-/
>
> I get some of my most productive computer time between 11pm and 3am. And
sometimes I get engrossed and eventually notice the sun coming up, and see
the herd staring at the house wondering what kind of oddball schedule I'm
on *this* time! ;)
Jorene Downs
CV...@leeds.ac.uk (E. Carpenter) wrote:
>In article <34c06aab....@news.psnw.com>,
> jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) wrote:
>
>>And I noticed at PM feeding
>>was that she's been worrying her bandages. <sigh> Time to break out
>>the nasty tasting stuff. If she starts chewing, this is gonna be a
>>long haul for recovery!
>
>Is it a front leg? Sorry I didn't follow the thread before and have not got
>the old messages. She can wear a pair of modified jeans if it is a front
>leg and that should keep her teeth off the more vital bandaging :-)
>[...] It has *worked*, honest!!
Blu carved up her left *hind* on the shin, exposing 3-4" of bone but
apparently missing the critical stuff like tendons. But I'd sure
like to see a pix of a horse wearing jeans! ;)
I've sprayed her bandaging with ... hmmm, wish I had the bottle in
front of me ... Bitter Apple (?) Nasty tasting. Hopefully that
will be enough to discourage her. If not, I'll rummage through the
catalogs. I'd prefer to avoid the cradle, and would first try that
lower leg wrap I saw - somewhere! - that is neoprene (?) with a
nubby / bristly exterior.
My other problem may be keeping Blu sane and quiet in 24/7 stall
confinement, with no turnout to burn off her fit 2 y.o. excess
energy. She has stall-living experience from the trainer's, but
always with daily work / turnout. Blu already "killed" the plastic
bottle we hung in her stall, and now it appears she ignores it. She
is retaining her manners so far, other than a real minor fussy about
her paste meds that I resolved by putting on her halter. (Just
wearing it is enough to have her stand quietly for the paste
syringe.) I've split her feed into 3X / day just to try and keep
her occupied, but that isn't enough distraction.
This PM while I was in getting her supplements (after meds, before
alfalfa) she did several laps around her 12x16 crow hopping. She
stopped when I yelled, but started again each time I disappeared
back into the feed room to finish gathering her Natural Glo,
Vetri-Plus (vitamins), and last dose of psyllium. She wants outta
there, and since I won't turn her out she's providing her own
exercise. Guess she didn't get the message that her healing process
will work substantially better and faster if she keeps that leg
immobile! :-/
Sometime this afternoon she dumped her water tub (Rubbermaid type)
and chased the empty tub around her stall. When I dragged in a bag
of shavings and sliced it open, Blu was right there pawing at it to
distribute the contents, then picked up the empty plastic bag and
shook it. I stepped back and let her play. Saved me some work <g>
but all of this activity also tells me Blu has "cabin fever" after
only 9 days of confinement ... and we still have weeks ahead of us!
I don't dare give Blu something loose like a stall ball, because
with my luck she'd pick it up and fling it 10 ft outside the stall
and break the barn window. Other than that, I'm pretty much open to
suggestions on how to keep Blu self-entertained. She's mannered and
quiet when I'm standing right there keeping her company - unless
I've provided a bag of shavings to play with ;) - and I visit her
several times a day when I'm home (even take Jade down to visit
<G>), but I can't spend 24/7 sharing her stall for the next X weeks
just to keep her distracted. ;-/ Any suggestions?
- - -
John T. Klausner
Is there some reason she can't go out and play in a safe turnout??
Since there are no tendons involved, why not secure the bandages (now
that might be the problem) and let her play?? (alone of course)
SueK
In <34936259...@news.psnw.com> jcd...@strategic-vision.com
(Jorene Downs) writes:
>Blu carved up her left *hind* on the shin, exposing 3-4" of bone but
>apparently missing the critical stuff like tendons. But I'd sure
>like to see a pix of a horse wearing jeans! ;)
>snipped
Jorene Downs
Well. look what my ISP delivered, 5 days late! <sigh>
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>
>>Open shows available locally?
>>>I'm thinking of throwing a Western saddle on him [...]
>>
>>Let me know if this trial deserves a YeeeeHaaawwww! ;)
>
>If it goes well, I may be able to overcome my Norwegian heritage and give out
>with one a those myself.
>
>(Norwegian enthusiasm; "yep, that's pretty damn good" said with absolutely no
>inflection. ;-)
ROTFL!
But did you try the western saddle???
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) asks:
>But did you try the western saddle???
Yep. The only one at the barn was an old one and I don't think it's got all
the thingies for fastening it on. At any rate, it didn't stay put, so I
couldn't get on and ride.
But it was enlightening and encouraging anyway. He was completely calm and
relaxed the whole time -- even when the saddle turned completely sideways all I
got was a look that said "are you a total incompetent or what?" If I'd let an
English saddle slip like that he would have blown six gaskets.
I led him over to look at his nemesis the sunbeam, and he just stepped right
over. Under the English saddle, the sunbeam calls for a long consideration
followed by a wild leap. ;-)
So the attitude is definitely different and infinitely better. I put a cheap
stock saddle on my "buy" list. ;-) And I'm now looking forward to spring time
and our first trail rides instead of wondering how in the hell I'm going to
live through them. ;-)
Jorene Downs
som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner) wrote:
re: Blu's stall confinement
>Is there some reason she can't go out and play in a safe turnout??
>Since there are no tendons involved, why not secure the bandages (now
>that might be the problem) and let her play?? (alone of course)
> SueK
Remember there are several inches of bone exposed? It seems that
immobility is greatly preferred to encourage the "remains" and new
growth to firmly attach / re-attach to the bone. Ideally, Blu would
be in a sling. Instead we're doing snug wrapping to try and keep
things immobile under the wraps, heavy padding to protect from bumps
that might bust something loose, and keeping our fingers crossed
that she'll stand still long enough for all this to work. :-/
Sheane Meikle
Hi Jorene!
I visited your website and was quite impressed. It's neat to picture Blu in
my head when you 'talk' about her. I'm "rootin' for you both!
I hate to bring it up (you've probalbly thought of it), but do you think Blu
can use a mild sedative for a short period of time? I don't like drugs, but
sometimes they can be a neccesary evil. Poor Blu. Someone should play target
practice with those dogs (I believe you'd be in your rights).
Anyway, it's nice to meet you and all the other rec.eq.'ers.
Bonnie Meikle
Jorene Downs wrote in message
Robby Johnson
Jorene:
I really am hating reading about Blu's misfortune. That totally sucks
the big one. I understand your need to keep Blu confined and I'm so
sorry about the skin not making it through. Do what your DVM and
Christie :) advise until you can begin hand-walking her.
I'm assuming you've cut her grain back to a level that'll keep her sane
and that hay is in front of her 24/7. It doesn't sound like she's
banging the walls down yet, but I understand the delicate nature of the
situation you're in.
Best of luck to you and please keep us posted.
FWIW, I would call the SPCA or dog-catcher in your community re: the
neighbor's dogs. You don't have the luxury, unfortunately, of living in
an area where alligators are indigenous. In my native neck of the woods
it was always easy to blame the gator (but not Jane's).
Post and Mailed
--
Robby Johnson
Little Rock, Arkansas
* I'm spamblocking, remove asterisks to email me:
robbyj***@swbell***.net
* "People are afraid to ask for what they want, that's why they don't
get what they want." - Madonna, "Sex" 1992
Jorene Downs
Robby Johnson <robbyj***@swbell***.net> wrote:
>I really am hating reading about Blu's misfortune. [...]
>I'm assuming you've cut her grain back to a level that'll keep her sane
We have never grained Blu, even when she was in training and really
fit. She's on Natural Glo. Started her as a foal. Blu has done quite
well on this. Other than 3rd trimester / lactating mares / other
special circumstances, we normally don't grain.
Had Magic on grain for 30 days when we were building her physically
for halter. An obvious not-so-nice change in her disposition, so we
put her back on only Natural Glo. No more problems.
>and that hay is in front of her 24/7.
[...]
That's a tough one, since Blu tends to put on weight quickly, and
excess weight I'm sure wouldn't help her leg any. No grass hay in
this neck of the woods, so she's on alfalfa. And I can already see
weight gain. But I'm splitting her feed into 3X / day on days that
I'm home for a mid-day feeding, hoping it will both keep her
occupied and maybe burn off better if she's not wolfing it all down.
Jorene Downs
"Sheane Meikle" <act...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>Hi Jorene!
>
>I visited your website and was quite impressed. It's neat to picture Blu in
>my head when you 'talk' about her. I'm "rootin' for you both!
Thanks! And glad you enjoyed the visit! Guess it isn't hard to
tell that I have a lot of fun with my web pages ... ;)
>I hate to bring it up (you've probalbly thought of it), but do you think Blu
>can use a mild sedative for a short period of time? I don't like drugs, but
>sometimes they can be a neccesary evil. Poor Blu.
Gotta admit I've been tempted to slip her a little something. ;-/
But if I can find a more natural way to settle her down to a more
placid daily routine, I'll be a bunch happier. Doc Jamie will be
back out again on Tuesday. We'll see if she isn't satisfied with
Blu's progress, and if she things it is "over-activity" related.
>Someone should play target
>practice with those dogs (I believe you'd be in your rights).
I've already zapped 'em with pellets. They usually stay away for
several days after I do ... ;-/
>Anyway, it's nice to meet you and all the other rec.eq.'ers.
Glad you could join us, Bonnie! And thanks for the kind thoughts for
Blu!
Jane H. Kilberg
In article <34c8ad25....@news.psnw.com>, jcd...@strategic-vision.com
wrote:
> SueK
>
> Remember there are several inches of bone exposed? It seems that
> immobility is greatly preferred to encourage the "remains" and new
> growth to firmly attach / re-attach to the bone. Ideally, Blu would
> be in a sling. Instead we're doing snug wrapping to try and keep
> things immobile under the wraps, heavy padding to protect from bumps
> that might bust something loose, and keeping our fingers crossed
> that she'll stand still long enough for all this to work. :-/
Did you discuss a removeable cast as an option?
Jorene Downs
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) asks:
>
>>But did you try the western saddle???
>
>Yep. The only one at the barn was an old one and I don't think it's got all
>the thingies for fastening it on. At any rate, it didn't stay put, so I
>couldn't get on and ride.
Hoping you'd found one with rigging intact and could report how well
he did under Western saddle with a *rider*. ;)
>I led him over to look at his nemesis the sunbeam, and he just stepped right
>over. Under the English saddle, the sunbeam calls for a long consideration
>followed by a wild leap. ;-)
If I was on a trail horse who did that wild leap, we'd turn and
cross that sunbeam a gazillion times - if necessary - until he
figured out that it is just lighting, not a difference in terrain.
Keep at it until he plodded right through with a bored shrug. ;)
Does he ever stop to paw right on that sunbeam? Stretch down and
snif it? His leap is just an avoidance. Perhaps he thinks it is a
ditch or weird cavaletti. :)
If he doesn't stop to investigate, you might mess with his mind some
time and place a carrot / apple / treat right down on that sunbeam.
Make him confront his bogeyman and provide a reward at the same
time.Maybe even lay out a trail of treats for him to follow right
along that sunbeam. Of course, later he may cause a problem by
stopping suddenly to check for any treats he may have missed! :)
>So the attitude is definitely different and infinitely better. I put a cheap
>stock saddle on my "buy" list. ;-)
In my neck of the woods a halfway decent *used* stock saddle would
start at @ $300. I'd recommend a decent used Western saddle over a
cheap new one ... but don't imagine there are many used ones in your
neck of the woods. ;)
I wonder if since you're accusomed to a lighter weight saddle,
perhaps a cordura-type might be worth investigating? Depends on
anticipated usage if that would be appropriate.
>And I'm now looking forward to spring time
>and our first trail rides instead of wondering how in the hell I'm going to
>live through them. ;-)
I think this bears repeating: YEEEEHAWWWWW!!! :)))
Snezewort
jcd...@strategic-vision.com (Jorene Downs) says:
>Hoping you'd found one with rigging intact and could report how well
>he did under Western saddle with a *rider*. ;)
I only wish I could. I haven't even been out to the barn for a quick groom and
a carrot in over a week, 'cause I'm now employed with the US Postal Service and
you guys didn't MAIL EARLY. So I'm working six-and-twelve until Christmas eve.
:-{
>If I was on a trail horse who did that wild leap, we'd turn and
>cross that sunbeam a gazillion times - if necessary - until he
>figured out that it is just lighting, not a difference in terrain.
>Keep at it until he plodded right through with a bored shrug. ;)
That's what we usually do. Since the sunbeam comes and goes, he 'normally'
treats it as a new and exciting adventure in footing on each ride. But in the
western saddle, we started at 'bored shrug.' :-)
>Does he ever stop to paw right on that sunbeam? Stretch down and
>snif it? His leap is just an avoidance. Perhaps he thinks it is a
>ditch or weird cavaletti. :)
Yep. I think he's not sure what it is, since all he can really see is the
contrast. I don't think horse vision is good enough that he can see the grains
of sand and interpret it as part of the ground. So I understand not wanting to
put his feet on something when he's not sure what he's putting his feet on. I
tried explaining light waves to him, but his eyes glazed over. ;-)
He usually settles the second or third time over, except on partly cloudy days.
;-)
>If he doesn't stop to investigate, you might mess with his mind some
>time and place a carrot / apple / treat right down on that sunbeam.
>Make him confront his bogeyman and provide a reward at the same
>time.
I tried this with the horse-eating blocks. You should have seen his eyes bug
out when he was trying to work out how to get the carrot without touching the
block. ;-)
>In my neck of the woods a halfway decent *used* stock saddle would
>start at @ $300. I'd recommend a decent used Western saddle over a
>cheap new one ... but don't imagine there are many used ones in your
>neck of the woods. ;)
I'm hoping to find a fairly good used one, and will probably be back asking for
opinions when I locate one. Oh hell, I'll ask now:
Which makes are good, and which ones are don't touch with a ten-foot pole?
Fortunately, western is far and away the most popular "style" in these parts,
so stock saddles are easier to come by than english.
>I wonder if since you're accusomed to a lighter weight saddle,
>perhaps a cordura-type might be worth investigating? Depends on
>anticipated usage if that would be appropriate.
It probably won't get heavy use, but then again, if he's happy in it, it might
be the saddle of choice for hitting the road, which we should do a lot of next
year. Since I've got two saddles already (and two bridles, and the breast
collar which Trigger needed, and Ted apparently needs too) tack cleaning is
already an all-day project.
>I think this bears repeating: YEEEEHAWWWWW!!! :)))
Thankee. I'd try it myself, but I'd probably break something. ;-)
Jorene Downs
jkil...@mcia.com (Jane H. Kilberg) wrote:
>In article <34c8ad25....@news.psnw.com>, jcd...@strategic-vision.com
>wrote:
>> SueK
>>
>> Remember there are several inches of bone exposed? It seems that
>> immobility is greatly preferred to encourage the "remains" and new
>> growth to firmly attach / re-attach to the bone. Ideally, Blu would
>> be in a sling. Instead we're doing snug wrapping to try and keep
>> things immobile under the wraps, heavy padding to protect from bumps
>> that might bust something loose, and keeping our fingers crossed
>> that she'll stand still long enough for all this to work. :-/
>Did you discuss a removeable cast as an option?
Thanks for the suggestion, Jane. Doc Jamie will be here on Tuesday
morning. I'll ask what she thinks of the idea in Blu's case.
tobler
> > ... and keeping our fingers crossed
> > that she'll stand still long enough for all this to work. :-/
>
> Did you discuss a removeable cast as an option?
>
> down the tejas trails....
> jane kilberg & her GOS (Gang of Spots) in the great nation of tejas
Removeable by whom? Jorene or Blu? :-)
Wendy, still humoring and doctoring Thud, in MI
JANE BYNUM
Organization: Vnet Internet Access, Inc. - Charlotte, NC. (704) 374-0779
Distribution:
Jorene Downs (jcd...@strategic-vision.com) wrote:
snip
: My other problem may be keeping Blu sane and quiet in 24/7 stall
: confinement, with no turnout to burn off her fit 2 y.o. excess
: energy. She has stall-living experience from the trainer's, but
snip some more
My three-year-old had surgery this fall to remove a huge bony callous that
resulted from a puncture wound in the middle of a cannon bone. He had 4
weeks of 24-hour stall rest with limited hand-grazing during the last
week. I was amazed that he didn't bother his bandage too much. OTOH, he
removed board after board from his stall partition, crushed 2 water
buckets, and shredded a Rubbermaid feed tub. He normally has 24 hour
turnout, but he also had spent enough time at a trainer's to get used to
the idea of living in a stall. Once he'd ripped the feed tub off the
wall, I left it in his stall for him to chew on. I also tried to give him
hay, 1 flake at a time, as much as he could eat, any time anyone walked
past his stall and noticed that he was out. His grain was cut to 1
handfull - enough to mix with his vitamin and mineral supplements. He's a
real personality anyway, so having him at a busy boarding barn meant that
he had someone to watch most of the time, plus he had everyone stopping by
his stall to pat him and give him some more hay. It meant bringing home
the horse I normally board there so I have a ring to ride in, but it kept
Wilbur relatively sane.
So, if you can put Blu in a stall where she can see what's going on, she
might be less bored. She might also be happier with a buddy. If
necessary, you could rotate other horses for babysitter duty. Having
grass hay to much on all the time really helped to keep Wilbur from
developing any really obnoxious habits. I don't think you can do that
with alfalfa, but it might be worth it to look for some less rich hay.
Jane Bynum (jby...@vnet.net) in greater Apex, NC
Jorene Downs
jby...@vnet.net (JANE BYNUM) wrote:
>Jorene Downs (jcd...@strategic-vision.com) wrote:
>snip
>: My other problem may be keeping Blu sane and quiet in 24/7 stall
>: confinement, with no turnout to burn off her fit 2 y.o. excess
>: energy. She has stall-living experience from the trainer's, but
>snip some more
>My three-year-old had surgery this fall [...] 4
>weeks of 24-hour stall rest with limited hand-grazing during the last
>week. I was amazed that he didn't bother his bandage too much. OTOH, he
>removed board after board from his stall partition, crushed 2 water
>buckets, and shredded a Rubbermaid feed tub. [...]
Yikes, Blu has been fussing, but not *that* much!
[...]
>So, if you can put Blu in a stall where she can see what's going on, she
>might be less bored.
Good suggestion! Luckily this stall is set up so Blu can look across
center aisle and see several horses. During the day she can gaze out
the open center aisle doors across the yard. She's usually the first
one to spot me coming from the house. :)
I'm keeping her in a pen where the wall shared with another stall is
solid to 8 ft. So while she can spectate, she can't "fuss over a
fence" with another horse.
>[...] Having
>grass hay to much on all the time really helped to keep Wilbur from
>developing any really obnoxious habits. I don't think you can do that
>with alfalfa, but it might be worth it to look for some less rich hay.
This is dairy country, so not much but alfalfa is grown. I've
checked around for oat hay, which is sometimes available. What
little is around is such poor quality, I might as well toss Blu
straw. :-/
So far the empty bucket hanging on the rail continues to entertain
her. Tonight I dropped in several chunks of mineral block so it
would rattle better for her. ;) And we switched the Rubbermaid-type
water tub for a galvanized trough. She's not likely to drag this one
across the stall on a daily basis, but she's having fun *standing
still* sloshing in the wider water surface. :)
Jorene Downs
tobler <wto...@tdi.net> wrote:
>> > ... and keeping our fingers crossed
>> > that she'll stand still long enough for all this to work. :-/
>Jorene
>
>>
>> Did you discuss a removeable cast as an option?
>Removeable by whom? Jorene or Blu? :-)
AWK!!!
Hmmm. However, Blu *is* a rather clever horse. Really fast learner
when it is something that interests her. (Note that circles and
going around and around on the rail is booooring! But give her an
obstacle to manoeuver or cow to push around ... <g>) Blu is the
kind of horse people say are "too smart for their own good" or
"needs a *job* to do"
Perhaps Jane was perceptive enough to recognize this (or received
the input telepathically? <g>) and suggested something to keep Blu
busy while *also* helping her heal faster???
What a brilliant strategy!!! :)))
Ye Olde Mean Vile & Evil Muleskinner
snez...@aol.com (Snezewort) wrote:
>... I'm now employed with the US Postal Service ...
Whoa. I'm not gonna dispute anything with you.
I =know= what happens when USPS people get pushed.
>... I
>tried explaining light waves to him, but his eyes glazed over. ;-)
He may prefer particle theory ...
>[Western Saddle]
>I'm hoping to find a fairly good used one, and will probably be back asking for
>opinions when I locate one. Oh hell, I'll ask now:
>Which makes are good, and which ones are don't touch with a ten-foot pole?
If I were to get any more western saddles, I'd
want to find the Bob Marshall Sport versions
described so well by KS, any saddles built
by Fallis - one probably has to wait until
the owners thereof die without equestrian
oriented heirs to get one of those used -
and I'd be interested in trying the ones
being offered by Stonewall, as well, as
they seem to resemble the McClellans.
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/sci.math/chanquayherm/53jddq$c...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm