Attributing Human Vices to Horses
Sheila Green
'anon-r...@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous)' wrote:
>Sheila ... now posts that they will "show anger" in acting
>out aggression? What the hell is this supposed to mean?
I =never= wrote that horses show anger.
>Octopi and squid both routinely display not only anger,
>but full blown rage.
It's some kind of defensiveness or dominant aggression,
not anger.
> .. get the *(&*&(&^%*&^ stomped
>out of you. Laying in the hospital recovering from a
>vicious bite or kick, you will find Sheila's pronouncement
>that a horse is incapable of 'anger' of little consolation or
>therapeutic value.
I've explicitly stated that a defensive or aggressive horse
can kick one's head off. What language would I have had
to say it in for you to get it?
>Now, let's all guess what happens when we take him off the
>open range and stand him inside a dark 12 x 12 stall with
>nothing whatsoever to do for 24 hours a day. It may not be
>boredom that causes cribbing, chewing etc. (isn't it
>amazing that most of the 'vices' have something to do with
>simulating eating?) but if you treat it as something caused
>by something 'very much like boredom" (despite the 'fact'
>that "horses can't be bored") you might have some success
>in stopping the behavior, and having a happier horse in the
>bargain (though next we'll probably be told they can't be
>'happy' either).
"Sensory deprivation" is not the same thing as "unwilling
to engage in productive activity".
Boredom is self-imposed by spoiled people. Horses only
show negative responses to confinement/mishandling.
>Good luck to all of you who like me, don't know all there is
>to know about the capacity of the equine mind...
Why, thanks, Morgan, but there's no such thing as luck.
--
Regards, Sheila see it as it is gr...@pipeline.com
Sheila Green
'kcar...@u.washington.edu' wrote:
>Acutally Sheila is full of shit
Care to elaborate?
> ... spending far too much time on her keyboard
>instead of her horses.
Just got back from a splendid hourlong ride around the farm on
a sweet, powerful horse. You?
>This is just a little word game she gets into
>now and again. Sort of mental masturbation.
I don't get off on watching people blame their horses
for problems caused by humans. I get off on seeing
that flash of enlightenment people have when they
take responsibility for what they do.
If it were really masturbation, I don't think there'd be
quite as many participants, but the more the merrier ;->
> And the rest of you jump
>right in and argue with her until the cows come home.
Whereupon it becomes bestiality as well as masturbation?
>I would enjoy this a bit more if it weren't so damn wordy.
Well, we aim to please Kris. You tell us which of these
bon mots to delete so that you can be happy, and we
will get right on it.
>Too boring!
You choose that as an evasion of getting into the fray.
--
Regards, Sheila sleeves rolled up gr...@pipeline.com
Sheila Green
'mor...@mindspring.com (Jim or Laura Behning)' wrote:
>Actually, Sheila has demonstrated that in many ways horses are actually
>quite superior intellectually to people, if only because they possess no
ego.
I'm not trying to say that horses are rocket scientists, though, only that
they don't deserve the bad rap caused by people projecting their 'pet'
(pun most certainly intended) vices onto them.
Maybe once people realize that horses don't pull this shit, it'll dawn on
them that people don't need to, either.
There is no earthly intellect which can surpass that of a human who
has left the baggage of ego behind.
> ... My apologies to Sheila if I misunderstood what she is
>getting at here:-).
Laura, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks!
--
Regards, Sheila appreciative gr...@pipeline.com
Anonymous
another semantics dispute over whether horses are capable
of anger which she first stated they were incapable of but
which she now posts that they will "show anger" in acting
out aggression? What the hell is this supposed to mean?
No offense to anyone here, but as Victor pointed out in
another thread, humans seem awfully quick to distinguish
their own supposed mental superiorities over every other
form of life on the planet. Bad news, Sheila, drop a line
to the folks at Woods Hole, Mass, or over to Scripts (sp?)
down in Southern Cal. They will tell you that both
Octopi and squid both routinely display not only anger,
but full blown rage. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but both
species are essentially high powered clams...Seems funny
a horse can't get a little angry about something, being
somewhat more advanced than a clam...
Given all the equine "professional psychiatrists" that
periodically hold court here, don't we have one who actually
has the requisite education and degree to set some of these
conversations to rest?
In the meantime, let me on the basis of my own 'experience'
render some advice of my own..If your horse 'appears' to
be really really "angry" I'd suggest that you govern your
actions accordingly so as not to get the *(&*&(&^%*&^ stomped
out of you. Laying in the hospital recovering from a
vicious bite or kick, you will find Sheila's pronouncement
that a horse is incapable of 'anger' of little consolation or
therapeutic value.
On the subject of boredom, well, let me reiterate that left
to himself, a horse will spend about 16 hours a day feeding.
THAT's A LOT OF TIME!! He is more or less awake around 20
hours a day! THAT's a LOT OF TIME!!
Now, let's all guess what happens when we take him off the
open range and stand him inside a dark 12 x 12 stall with
nothing whatsoever to do for 24 hours a day. It may not be
boredom that causes cribbing, chewing etc. (isn't it
amazing that most of the 'vices' have something to do with
simulating eating?) but if you treat it as something caused
by something 'very much like boredom" (despite the 'fact'
that "horses can't be bored") you might have some success
in stopping the behavior, and having a happier horse in the
bargain (though next we'll probably be told they can't be
'happy' either).
Good luck to all of you who like me, don't know all there is
to know about the capacity of the equine mind...
Morgan
at...@entropy.boone.com
Allison Longaker Bryant
>Acutally Sheila is full of shit most
>of the time just like the rest
>of us and seems to be spending far too
>Kris Carroll
kcar...@u.washington.edu
AMEN!
Clare E. Aukofer
Sheila and Terry really got me angry sometimes, but it turned
out to be not for what they were saying, but for what I
*thought* they were saying.
It's the nature of the 'net beast that many of us jump online
for just a little while and skim a post here and there; that's
not a good thing to do with these guys, or at least not to
answer after doing. If you read either of them *very
carefully* you may find that what you think they said isn't
what they said, and that responding to what you think they said
makes you look a little foolish. I think this might be the
case with Sheila's post.
Then again, sometimes they can really piss you off no matter
how carefully you've read them!
Clare Aukofer, who goes for comprehension *and* speed, in
Charlottesville, VA ce...@Virginia.edu
--
Edith M. Clark
Well, I certainly hope that you all are not trying to suggest
that when my horse plants her large hoof squarely on my big toe
(which is actually rather small in comparison) that she is
not putting it there to get revenge for that extra lap I
made her run...
I'm sure I could add more to this subject, but darned if I
didn't misplace my thesaurus again, and I'd sure hate to try
to stand up to some of your posts without it. Good thing I
had my dictionary handy when reading...
C.C.
"Get off my toe you *?$*@!!! ^%#@*!!!!
I mean, if you will please free me I'll go get you some grain...
OK, OK, UNCLE!!!"
Sue Wong
Acutally Sheila is full of shit
snip...
This is just a little word game she gets into
now and again. Sort of mental masturbation.
and Sheila (Sheila Green, I assume, and not Sheila Kris's duck)
Whereupon it becomes bestiality as well as masturbation?
Well, at least I didn't miss anything - or is this a different
fight over what appears to be semantics to me than was going
on a week ago?
Sue and the Buckskins
Southlake, Tx
sw...@samson.Tx.hac.com
el...@delphi.com
of day, the "Vices" thread would have been equally thought
provoking and challenging without all the vitriol.
Elboc Crawling back underground to avoid the Gorgon gaze
of You Know Who.
Joel B Levin
Allison Longaker Bryant <abr...@bnr.ca (Allison Longaker
Bryant)> wrote:
|>Acutally Sheila is full of shit most
|>of the time just like the rest
|>of us and seems to be spending far too
|>much time on her keyboard instead of her
|>she gets...
|
|
|AMEN!
Hah. You Bin Trolled.
Joel B Levin
Clare E. Aukofer <ce...@avery.med.Virginia.EDU (Clare E.
Aukofer)> wrote:
(about Sheila and Terry)
| If you read either of them *very
|carefully* you may find that what you think they said isn't
|what they said, and that responding to what you think they said
|makes you look a little foolish. I think this might be the
|case with Sheila's post.
|
|Then again, sometimes they can really piss you off no matter
|how carefully you've read them!
The power of the sharp skewer of satire is not to be underestimated.
The entertainment value alone is worth the time and effort. In
addition there is wisdom to be found if one looks and thinks just a
little.
/J
Kris Anderson
writes:
>Kris C. said:
>
> Acutally Sheila is full of shit
> This is just a little word game she gets into
> now and again. Sort of mental masturbation.
>
>and Sheila (Sheila Green, I assume, and not Sheila Kris's duck)
Must be Sheila Green, 'cause Sheila the Duck certainly isn't full of
shit (how could she be with the amount she leaves all over the place
around here). Sheila D. doesn't do word games either because she's a
Muscovey so she can't quack (although I'm sure that she swears silently
under her breath every time she tries to count her offspring).
I think we'd better re-name the duck Sheila Sue so that we don't confuse
her with anyone on rec.eq.. Hope no one minds. :-)
OB Horsey: Would anyone out there be willing to comment on the
advisibility of using this new canter cue that I've developed recently?
The pony that I'm riding can't seem to figure out my usual leg cues for
canter (outside leg back, inside at the girth), so I've been giving him
an extra cue with the inside rein. I squeeze the inside rein twice and
then give the leg cues. He's obviously figuring out which lead, as well
as the fact that I want canter, from the the rein cue because if I just
bend him to the inside and use the leg cues I tend to get a more forward
trot and/or random leads. If I've got him on a circle he's figured out
that he should take the inside lead, but I know he's not taking it from
my leg because he can't get the right one consistently outside the ring.
Can anyone forsee what sort of problems I may run into in the future
with this double squeeze inside rein cue for canter?
I'm hoping that the pony will eventually catch on to the leg cues, but
so far he seems to be particularly retarded about leg cues in relation to
leads.
kand...@williams.edu 1 QH/TB, 3 mules, 3 ponies,
Williamstown, MA 1 donkey, cows, dogs, cat, etc.
Sheila Green
Horses>, 'Kris Anderson <Kristen.J....@williams.edu>' wrote:
>In article <43ncdt$3...@hacgate2.hac.com> Sue Wong,
>sw...@samson.hac.com writes:
>>Kris C. said:
>> Acutally Sheila is full of shit
>> snip...
>> This is just a little word game she gets into
>> now and again. Sort of mental masturbation.
>>
>>and Sheila (Sheila Green, I assume, and not Sheila Kris's duck)
>
> Must be Sheila Green, 'cause Sheila the Duck certainly isn't full of
>shit (how could she be with the amount she leaves all over the place
>around here). Sheila D. doesn't do word games either because she's a
>Muscovey so she can't quack (although I'm sure that she swears silently
>under her breath every time she tries to count her offspring).
shit in your yard once, and you insist that =I'm= the one who's full
of shit? That's an example of 'argumentum ad poultimum poopimum'
in which the duckshit in Kris Carroll's yard is attributed to Kris
Anderson's
duck, who is mistaken for a humble and self-effacing lurker on rec.eq.
I'm simply astonished at all of this.
>I think we'd better re-name the duck Sheila Sue so that we don't confuse
>her with anyone on rec.eq.. Hope no one minds. :-)
>OB Horsey: Would anyone out there be willing to comment on the
>advisibility of using this new canter cue that I've developed recently?
>
>The pony that I'm riding can't seem to figure out my usual leg cues for
>canter (outside leg back, inside at the girth), so I've been giving him
>an extra cue with the inside rein. I squeeze the inside rein twice and
>then give the leg cues. He's obviously figuring out which lead, as well
>as the fact that I want canter, from the the rein cue because if I just
>bend him to the inside and use the leg cues I tend to get a more forward
>trot and/or random leads. If I've got him on a circle he's figured out
>that he should take the inside lead, but I know he's not taking it from
>my leg because he can't get the right one consistently outside the ring.
That's an easy one. Just decide to think of those rein cues as a couple
of timely applications of the inner-rein release so pertinent to dressage
training and now called for in tests, and it's inspired. You have the
bend anyway, and strictly speaking a couple of direct (releasing) rein
effects to tease the inside legs into action is quite classical ...
--
Regards, Sheila quack gr...@pipeline.com
Dennis Vassallo
Kris Anderson
anon-r...@utopia.hacktic.nl writes:
>Given all the equine "professional psychiatrists" that
>periodically hold court here, don't we have one who actually
>has the requisite education and degree to set some of these
>conversations to rest?
Surely you're kidding. I've never noticed anyone spending a whole lot
of time discussing immutable facts around here. If there were proof
there wouldn't be much to discuss.
Only the psychics profess to be able to read minds. Any professional
psychiatrist who would pretend that he knows for sure what anyone is
thinking, is in dire need of a psychiatrist himself.
Sheila Green
Horses>, 's...@med.uvm.edu (Sheryl White)' wrote:
>Sheila Green (gr...@nyc.pipeline.com) wrote:
>:
>: Boredom is self-imposed by spoiled people. Horses only
>
>Well, here we go again ;). It's really just semantics. If someone
>shows me their horse, stalled for 24 hours, ridden lightly a couple of
>times a week and not turned out, who is currently engaging in
>cribbing/kicking the stall/weaving, I usually tell the people their horse
>is bored and needs turn-out, etc.. If I turned around and told them
>their horse was showing a negative response to insufficient sensory
>stimulation, they would just stare at me like I was some kind of
>two-headed, temporal lobe pulsing geek from another planet.
Happens to me all the time. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.
>People identify with the word "bored/boredom". It may not be the most
>accurate description of what is going on with horses, since the
>confinement is not of their choice, but it gets the picture across.
People 'identify' with it far too much, that's part of the problem.
>Maybe we should create a new word to substitute for the rather
>inaccurate/evoking of conscious decision-word "bored"? I nominate the
>word "snored".
Or feed him a bunch of graham crackers with chocolate and marshmallows
melted in between, so they can be "s'mored".
--
Regards, Sheila yummy gr...@pipeline.com
Snezewort
In article <43pps4$q...@savoy.cc.williams.edu> Kris Anderson
wrote:
> OB Horsey: Would anyone out there be willing to comment
on
> the
>advisibility of using this new canter cue that I've
> developed recently?
>
> The pony that I'm riding can't seem to figure out my
usual
> leg cues for
>canter (outside leg back, inside at the girth), so I've been
> giving him
>an extra cue with the inside rein. I squeeze the inside
> rein twice and
>then give the leg cues.
Henry Wynmalen recommends this aid for the canter (with
only one squeeze on the inside rein). I've been using
it on J.C. when I can remember to. It seems to help a
lot. He understands the leg aids very well, but the
"prior warning" reminds him to set up and get ready to
canter, helpful on a lazy horse.
It's also making the flying changes easier, since he
gets an extra stride warning for the change (the
ultimate goal being to get the changes from the rein
alone and not go flopping around with the legs. I
think that looks very crude).
Haven't run into any problems yet.
Sheryl White
:
: Boredom is self-imposed by spoiled people. Horses only
: show negative responses to confinement/mishandling.
:
Well, here we go again ;). It's really just semantics. If someone
shows me their horse, stalled for 24 hours, ridden lightly a couple of
times a week and not turned out, who is currently engaging in
cribbing/kicking the stall/weaving, I usually tell the people their horse
is bored and needs turn-out, etc.. If I turned around and told them
their horse was showing a negative response to insufficient sensory
stimulation, they would just stare at me like I was some kind of
two-headed, temporal lobe pulsing geek from another planet.
People identify with the word "bored/boredom". It may not be the most
accurate description of what is going on with horses, since the
confinement is not of their choice, but it gets the picture across.
Maybe we should create a new word to substitute for the rather
inaccurate/evoking of conscious decision-word "bored"? I nominate the
word "snored".
Sheryl
kcar...@u.washington.edu
overly-anthropomorphised here is humans?
Common language is difficult enough to achieve. How we label a behavior is
less important than what we mean. In the past I have agreed that treating
dobbin as other than a horse can get one hurt. And I also agree there are
people in this group who are less than rigorous with either their language
or their knowledge of horses. But your points are lost to me in this morass
of semantics.
Cribbing = bored works for me
Biting = dominance = ticked off works too
Kris Carroll
kcar...@u.washington.edu
VW
>If one retaliates in anger because one thinks a defensive horse is 'ticked
>off',
>the animal may very well be induced to get drastically worse.
And what result if one fails to respond to a horse who feels they have
a right to bite you if you do anything they don't like? (standing in
the wrong place, for example, or not moving fast enough). Call it
anger or dominance, but at least recognize the difference from fear.
I'm surprised that you haven't picked on fear. That's a very human
failing, too, which is purely a matter of choice, and NOT an emotion.
Humans are perpetually limiting themselves by saying "I can't" even
about things which, once it is demonstrated to them, it becomes
patently obvious they always could.
Fear, if you were to be consistent, and I were to accept your previous
hypothesis, is not an emotion, either, and horses are incapable of it.
What they display is only a _highly developed instinct for
self-preservation_.
Of course, at this point I'm being an utter contrary bastard, and
engaging in semantic mental "auto-gratification" because of COURSE I
believe that horses have the full range of emotions.
Victor Wren
Sheila Green
Horses>,
>gr...@nyc.pipeline.com (Sheila Green) wrote:
>>If one retaliates in anger because one thinks a defensive horse
>>is 'ticked off', the animal may very well be induced to get
>>drastically worse.
>
>And what result if one fails to respond to a horse who feels they have
>a right to bite you if you do anything they don't like? (standing in
>the wrong place, for example, or not moving fast enough). Call it
>anger or dominance, but at least recognize the difference from fear.
with a remote clue of how to do it that it borders on being a non-issue.
If you've ignored the situation long enough to be threatened in the
manner which you describe, then you aren't qualified to handle
horses safely in the first place.
It's vitally important to establish relative subordination immediately.
You don't let them push you out of your space. You don't let them
touch you. You don't let them make dominant gestures at you.
If they try, you make dominant gestures at them, touch them,
and push them out of their space. You can, if you know what
you're about, dominate horses without yelling or hitting at all.
If you are deluded that dominance is anger, you'll probably,
on the other hand, just do something stupid that inspires
the horse to let you have it.
>I'm surprised that you haven't picked on fear. That's a very human
>failing, too, which is purely a matter of choice, and NOT an emotion.
>Humans are perpetually limiting themselves by saying "I can't" even
>about things which, once it is demonstrated to them, it becomes
>patently obvious they always could.
Humans make excuses for themselves instead of getting on the stick.
If you can't discern the difference you have a problem.
>Fear, if you were to be consistent, and I were to accept your previous
>hypothesis, is not an emotion, either, and horses are incapable of it.
>What they display is only a _highly developed instinct for
>self-preservation_.
stimuli, fear among them, and there are abstractions of those
things which are mental evasions unique to humans.
At this point, I don't hold any hope that you will figure any of this out.
>Of course, at this point I'm being an utter contrary bastard, and
>engaging in semantic mental "auto-gratification" because of COURSE I
>believe that horses have the full range of emotions.
do any horses any good, and your mistaken ideas about emotions
won't get you anywhere useful with people either.
--
Regards, Sheila helpful gr...@pipeline.com
Clare E. Aukofer
you gonna name all those soon-to-be-trampled offspring?
Clare
--
Deborah Stevenson
E. Aukofer) writes:
>I think renaming the duck Sheila Sue makes sense--but what are
>you gonna name all those soon-to-be-trampled offspring?
Pate'?
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Breaking out the crackers in Champaign, IL, USA
Judy Bergman
: On Sep 17, 1995 13:22:16 in article <Re:Attributing Human Vices to Horses>,
It seems that some of this disagreement is a result of misunderstanding
definitions. When I think that a horse is "misbehaving because he is
bored", in my mind it is an indictment of the owners who keep him penned
up and don't exercise him. In reality, he is not misbehaving because he
is reacting normally to unnatural conditions. And he isn't "bored",
because his inactivity has nothing to do with his being spoiled and lazy.
It is just easy to think of his behavior in "human" terms.
Judy
Mom of Rocky (both spoiled AND lazy)
kcar...@u.washington.edu
> If one retaliates in anger because one thinks a defensive horse is 'ticked
> off', > the animal may very well be induced to get drastically worse.
agreed, but retaliating in anger isn't an appropriate response anyway.
> If one decides that a poorly managed horse has somehow decided to adopt
> (or could abandon) a choice of behavior, one will not bother to improve
> things.
this is a bit abstract for my meager intellectual capabilities, if only we
could confront a concrete incident....but I'll give it a try anyway. No
matter what one decides about equine behavior adoption, one will not have
much of a choice about improving things, sooner or later. Do or die, as it
were.
> Have it your way, especially if it's just easier to tell me I'm full of
> shit.
Quit pouting, you know I have highest regard for what you offer this group.
I just wish you had a softer hand on the keyboard and produced less volume/
more substance.
Kris - who seems very happy to offer advice to others because it's a lot
easier than dealing with her own life right now - Carroll
kcar...@u.wasington.edu
Sheila Green
Horses>,
>In article <43t52a$l...@pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com> gr...@nyc.pipeline.com
>(Sheila Green) writes:
>> If one retaliates in anger because one thinks a defensive horse is
>> 'ticked off', the animal may very well be induced to get
>> drastically worse.
>
>agreed, but retaliating in anger isn't an appropriate response anyway.
that additional point made.
>> If one decides that a poorly managed horse has somehow decided to adopt
>> (or could abandon) a choice of behavior, one will not bother to improve
>> things.
>
>this is a bit abstract for my meager intellectual capabilities, if only we
>could confront a concrete incident....but I'll give it a try anyway. No
>matter what one decides about equine behavior adoption, one will not have
>much of a choice about improving things, sooner or later. Do or die, as it
>were.
Well, we could perhaps have a barnful of horses who are either cribbing,
weaving, stallwalking, or just acting like total idiots whenever they get
out. The management can stand around complaining about how some
horses just 'get bored', or they can start getting them all turned out
enough hours and fed enough forage instead of wasting time on
rationalizations which don't even apply. I've seen such places.
Horses deserve better, if only to preserve their value.
>> Have it your way, especially if it's just easier to tell me I'm full of
>> shit.
>
>Quit pouting, you know I have highest regard for what you offer this
group.
>I just wish you had a softer hand on the keyboard and produced less
volume/
>more substance.
Pouting? Not hardly. Far be it from me to tell someone they're full of
shit
unless I mean it and I know why. Fair is fair. Attack what I say, and I'm
ready to learn from you. Attack me for saying it, and you've wasted time.
My hand will get softer on the keyboard when the collective human hand
softens on the cumulative equine poll, and not before; unless they =pry=
that 101-key enhanced (plus mouse) out of my =cold, dead fists=. As for
my volume-to-substance ratio, I'll hold it up to anybody's. Besides, what
value is there in trying to restrict expression? It's largely a moot
point.
You can think I'm verbose, you can think I'm wrong, but what matters
is the meaning, not the format of the message nor one's opinion of the
messenger. If but a single person gleans but a solitary small idea of
use, then even a slew of words has had at least some good to offer.
>Kris - who seems very happy to offer advice to others because it's a lot
>easier than dealing with her own life right now - Carroll
>kcar...@u.wasington.edu
You're honest. You'll get through anything that way.
You don't owe your grief to anyone.
I hope you'll laugh at these times a few years from now,
and I wish you peace for the present.
--
Regards, Sheila admittedly contentious gr...@pipeline.com
kcar...@u.washington.edu
> Well, we could perhaps have a barnful of horses who are either cribbing,
> weaving, stallwalking, or just acting like total idiots whenever they get
> out. The management can stand around complaining about how some
> horses just 'get bored', or they can start getting them all turned out
> enough hours and fed enough forage instead of wasting time on
> rationalizations which don't even apply. I've seen such places.
> Horses deserve better, if only to preserve their value.
Like I've said before I don't get out much. Who doesn't know this? What
managment? Tell 'em for me they are idiots and worse. But (insert a more
appropriate and kinder word for "pontificating") here is like yelling at bad
drivers. They can't hear you, only your poor fellow passengers.
> Pouting? Not hardly. Far be it from me to tell someone they're full of
> shit > unless I mean it and I know why. Fair is fair.
Speaking of which, I want to point out that what I said (approximately) was
that you were as full of shit as everyone else around here. I was very
careful to make that admittedly fine distinction.
> You can think I'm verbose, you can think I'm wrong, but what matters
> is the meaning, not the format of the message
I categorically and doggedly disagree. Good design is invisible and
facilitates information access. Bad format makes it impossible to follow
your discussions.
> If but a single person gleans but a solitary small idea of
> use, then even a slew of words has had at least some good to offer.
More better if many have access to your writing. Now tell me how I keep five
seven year olds occupied on horseback for an hour lesson - yesterday I
taught them how to adjust their reins properly on the fly and suggested they
look where they're going, that the ground below the horse's shoulder was not
a viable destination. What's next?
Kris Carroll
kcar...@u.washington.edu
Sheila Green
Horses>,
>In article <444eji$f...@pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com> gr...@nyc.pipeline.com
>(Sheila Green) writes:
>> Well, we could perhaps have a barnful of horses who are either cribbing,
>> weaving, stallwalking, or just acting like total idiots whenever they
get
>> out. The management can stand around complaining about how some
>> horses just 'get bored', or they can start getting them all turned out
>> enough hours and fed enough forage instead of wasting time on
>> rationalizations which don't even apply. I've seen such places.
>> Horses deserve better, if only to preserve their value.
>
>Like I've said before I don't get out much. Who doesn't know this? What
>managment? Tell 'em for me they are idiots and worse. But (insert a more
>appropriate and kinder word for "pontificating") here is like yelling at
bad
>drivers. They can't hear you, only your poor fellow passengers.
Hold the bus, I've seen posts on this VERY GROUP in which people
are claiming that their horses are bored in the stable, bored in the pen,
bored in the lunge circle, etc. If a person can't slow down and work
at a horse's speed without getting 'bored' themselves they won't
make much of a trainer, either.
>> Pouting? Not hardly. Far be it from me to tell someone they're full of
>> shit unless I mean it and I know why. Fair is fair.
>
>Speaking of which, I want to point out that what I said (approximately)
was
>that you were as full of shit as everyone else around here. I was very
>careful to make that admittedly fine distinction.
I don't think =everyone else= here is full of shit, not even remotely.
Nor do I think you really believe that ;->
>> You can think I'm verbose, you can think I'm wrong, but what matters
>> is the meaning, not the format of the message
>
>I categorically and doggedly disagree. Good design is invisible and
>facilitates information access. Bad format makes it impossible to follow
>your discussions.
Look, I've had to use quirky, beta software, which still isn't perfect,
but I'd read what I really wanted to learn in aramaic if I had to.
>> If but a single person gleans but a solitary small idea of
>> use, then even a slew of words has had at least some good to offer.
>
>More better if many have access to your writing. Now tell me how I keep
five
>seven year olds occupied on horseback for an hour lesson - yesterday I
>taught them how to adjust their reins properly on the fly and suggested
they
>look where they're going, that the ground below the horse's shoulder was
not
>a viable destination. What's next?
Tell them they must gaze over the horizon for indian smoke signals ;->
Make two teams of two riders plus a referee, and teach them broom &
soccerball polo. Teach them mounting and dismounting with musical
feedbags. Play simon says, stoplight/golight, or break and out. Show
them how to do basic quadrille (quintille?) maneuvers. Have them do
simple trail class obstacles. Make sure they're laughing, and you
will be too. It's the world's best medicine, and we can all use a
dose now and then.
--
Regards, Sheila joker gr...@pipeline.com
Kris Anderson
gr...@nyc.pipeline.com writes:
>If one retaliates in anger because one thinks a defensive horse is
'ticked
>off',
>the animal may very well be induced to get drastically worse.
>
>(or could abandon) a choice of behavior, one will not bother to improve
>things.
>
>shit.
>
I'm with Sheila on this one.
Some of the most disgusting abuses I've seen are the actions that people
take against horses based on their misunderstandings of horse behavior
and motivation. It doesn't hurt any of us to hear over and over again
how misguided it is to punish a fearful horse, or try to force a horse to
do things that he doesn't understand or can't do.
So keep at it Sheila. I'm listening. Wish I had time to flame the fuzz
offa ya too in honor of Flame Everyone All The Time Week, but I'm about 2
months behind here and it's all your fault. ALL YOUR FAULT!!!
Sheryl White
:
: Or feed him a bunch of graham crackers with chocolate and marshmallows
Y'all are not going to believe this, but... I think Sheila must have
undiscovered horse psychic talent! That's right, she's one of them there
horse psychics and didn't even know it!
Last night we had a bonfire complete with s'mores. I was staring down
toward the barn when I realized I had forgotten my fence pliers out in
the field where we are putting up fence. So, half a s'more in hand, I
walked over to the pasture. Not wanting to get marshmellow/chocolate all
over several sets of gates, I set the s'more down on top of a high
fencepost (obvious aside: s'mores with hay taste just as good as the
regular s'mores, but have roughage which is real good for you ;) I
determined it would be safe, since the horses were way out in the pasture
and unlikely to bother to stop grazing and meander this way. I proceeded
to pick up the fence pliers and just as I was coming over the hill near
my s'more deposition area, what do I see? Magnum, licking his lips, with
what was either a smear of marshmellow or the result of rabid slobbering
streaked across his muzzle. My s'more was n'more :(. Magnum yawned at
me, emitting a distinct graham crackery smell (he yawns when something is
stuck in his teeth) and went back to grazing, content with his treat theft.
It's obvious that Sheila picked up psychically from this event and
unconsciously communicated it. As the discoverer of this amazing talent, I
expect a percentage of the profits, once Sheila learns to channel her
abilities (for a profit, of course), becomes world famous and
is making $200/10 minute phone call. Whadya say, Sheila? 20/80? I'm
not the greedy type, and I'll help spread the word of your stupendous
abilities (I have a wide array of adjectives for you handy!). Think it
over, it could be a welcome career change...
yours in complete awe,
Sheryl
Andrew P. Bajorinas
>Sheryl
>
This is getting really silly.
Sheila, what is wrong with using the word "bored" as a colloquial way
of saying he shows "negative responses to confinement/mishandling". I
don't understand what the difference is. When people are bored it is
due to the same things even if they are mishandling themselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew P. Bajorinas | These opinions are my own and |
| Bajo...@Perkin-Elmer.com | not those of my employer. |
| Sr. Engineer |-------------------------------|
| Perkin-Elmer Corp, Norwalk, CT | "Witty comment here" |
|________________________________|_______________________________|
.
Sheila Green
>>: Boredom is self-imposed by spoiled people. Horses only
>>: show negative responses to confinement/mishandling.
>
>>Maybe we should create a new word to substitute for the rather
>>inaccurate/evoking of conscious decision-word "bored"? I nominate the
>>word "snored".
because I'm an "Animal 'Psychotic' ", as has been established so
effectively elsewhere. BTW, your horse tells me he wants "s'more".
That's exactly how he said it, with a touch of an accent, yeah, that's
the ticket, he enunciates quite well for an animal. Email $50 american
to gr...@pipeline.com.
On Sep 26, 1995 12:26:18 in article <Re: Attributing Human Vices to
Horses>, 'Bajo...@Perkin-Elmer.com (Andrew P. Bajorinas)' wrote:
>This is getting really silly.
>Sheila, what is wrong with using the word "bored" as a colloquial way
>of saying he shows "negative responses to confinement/mishandling".
instead of understanding that we've put him in a bad situation.
>I don't understand what the difference is. When people are bored it is
>due to the same things even if they are mishandling themselves.
child sitting in the middle of a roomful of toys, diversions, and, of
course,
potential venues of action, who is whining that "There's nothing to DO."
Lock that same kid in a closet for a few days and you'll start to have
the same thing we see in horses: BIG difference. A human indulging
in boredom is demanding that entertainment, attention, and stimulation
be spoonfed rather than self-sought. A horse will simply seek what he
needs and go nuts if he can't get it, and understanding that isn't 'silly'.
--
Regards,
Sheila, whining, "can't I please flame SOMEBODY?" gr...@pipeline.com
Deborah Stevenson
Bajorinas) writes:
>Sheila, what is wrong with using the word "bored" as a colloquial way
>of saying he shows "negative responses to confinement/mishandling". I
>don't understand what the difference is. When people are bored it is
>due to the same things even if they are mishandling themselves.
I am not Sheila (wait for mixture of boos and cheers to die down) but
I've been following this thread with interest and I must say my opinion
has shifted a bit as a result. (Of course, I think "just semantics" is
an oxymoron :-).)
I would summarize the "don't call 'em bored" argument as suggesting that
using human terms for equine behavior encourages people to respond to
that behavior as if it came from humans, which can range from ineffective to
destructive.
While I don't agree with Sheila on some of this, particularly on some of
her human judgments (I've known quite a few people that would get just as
angry at a "dominance display" as a "pissed-off horse," for instance), I
tend to agree with the underlying premise: that avoiding human
terminology for horses makes it easier to avoid inappropriate responses
to them. It doesn't guarantee anything either way, but there are at
least a few people, I bet, who consider the conflation of terms to be a
conflation of concepts, which it's not.
Yeah, I'll probably still call horses bored, because the anthropomorphism
entertains me. But I won't let anybody else anymore :-).
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
In a stimulating atmosphere in Champaign, IL, USA
kcar...@u.washington.edu
> least a few people, I bet, who consider the conflation of terms to be a
> conflation of concepts, which it's not.
very few I'm afraid and most likely only those who have spent far too long
finishing grad school. ;-)
> Yeah, I'll probably still call horses bored, because the anthropomorphism
> entertains me. But I won't let anybody else anymore :-).
Bored is probably the weakest point Sheila made and the easest to defend,
because it is a term like kleenex or hoover. Everyone uses it and knows
exactly what is going on.
Kris Carroll
kcar...@u.washington.edu
John Verheul
Use the classical equestrian techniques and aids. Dont fuck about with
any other fiddly bits and pieces. Equestrain pursuits is a discipline,
and people have thought about getting horses going for centuries. Maybe
the horse has something wrong with him, or he takes after you.
regards